Confidential details of 15 million child benefit recipients are on computer discs lost by HM Revenue and Customs, the BBC understands.

The chairman of the organisation, Paul Gray, has resigned.

Revenue and Customs says it does not believe the records - names, addresses, date of birth and bank accounts - have fallen into the wrong hands.

Chancellor Alistair Darling is to give a Commons statement on "a major operational problem" at 1530 GMT.

BBC political editor Nick Robinson said he understood ministers had been aware of the problem for nine to 10 days.

Mr Darling is expected to outline the measures taken to protect those whose data has been lost.

Full BBC News Online report

What is it with this government and losing confidential information?

The infomation lost is the details of 7m families involving 25m individuals, that is parents and children.

The infomation lost was download from the main HMRC computers on two computer discs, and sent to the National Audit Office by TNT. The package, government calls it a wallet, did not arrive in London at the NAO after being sent from the Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs in Washington, Tyne & Wear (north of England). It was lost in transit, and the good news is there are no signs of fraudulant action yet.

The infomation lost is the details of 7m families involving 25m individuals, that is parents and children.

The infomation lost was download from the main HMRC computers on two computer discs, and sent to the National Audit Office by TNT. The package, government calls it a wallet, did not arrive in London at the NAO after being sent from the Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs in Washington, Tyne & Wear (north of England). It was lost in transit, and the good news is there are no signs of fraudulant action yet.


Royal mail lose it then?

Royal mail lose it then?
This time it was TNT.

The person who posted it didn't send by recorded delivery or anything like that.  What a twat!

The person who posted it didn't send by recorded delivery or anything like that.  What a twat!
Exactly!

From the questions after the statement, this is a normal occurance of sending mail or any form of communication, but with a signature or recorded delivery.

Typically, the account our child benefit gets paid into is the only one with any money in at the moment...

I'm really rather surprised there doesn't seem to have been any encryption applied (or at least, if there has been, nobody's mentioned it).

Another of life's ironies is that when it comes to designing the rules for sensible IT strategies, all the best ones are UK and government-based.  Yet the civil service never seem to take the advice they spend years and millions working out.  I see that the chairman of HMRC has resigned - it would be a bit harsh to blame Darling for his minions' carelessness (but I guess the Tories & LibDems'll try).

For the record he is the latest update report from BBC News Online

PMQ (Prime Minister Questions) in Parliament today should be very interesting.

PMQ (Prime Minister Questions) in Parliament today should be very interesting.

I doubt it... it'll just be attempted points scoring, trying to stretch a point and make out Darling is incompetent, when in practise the security guidelines were there to be followed, but weren't.  I don't think you can expect the Chancellor to be checking what goes on in his department at that sort of level.

Wow...  I'm glad I don't live in the U.K....

Wow...  I'm glad I don't live in the U.K....
I am glad my son is way over the age for Child Benefit, for if not I would be quivering in my boots.

I am glad my son is way over the age for Child Benefit, for if not I would be quivering in my boots.

Don't you think that might just be a bit of an overreaction?

I think it's a shame nobody taught the prats in charge of the data how to do a SELECT NatInsNo,Surname,Firstname output to a file, rather than copying the entire contents... and even then not following guidelines. 

The reporting has been utterly pathetic, over-the-top scaremongering - ITN were basically saying "it's too late, your identity's been stolen by now"; the BBC were only marginally better.  Their inability to deal with or understand anything remotely technical is laughable.  And the NAO saying they only wanted national insurance number + name so they could check for fraud is also ridiculous: at best, all that can tell you is that you have people with duplicate names.  Big ****ing deal.

Don't you think that might just be a bit of an overreaction?

I think it's a shame nobody taught the prats in charge of the data how to do a SELECT NatInsNo,Surname,Firstname output to a file, rather than copying the entire contents... and even then not following guidelines. 

The reporting has been utterly pathetic, over-the-top scaremongering - ITN were basically saying "it's too late, your identity's been stolen by now"; the BBC were only marginally better.  Their inability to deal with or understand anything remotely technical is laughable.  And the NAO saying they only wanted national insurance number + name so they could check for fraud is also ridiculous: at best, all that can tell you is that you have people with duplicate names.  Big ****ing deal.


I can't actually see why such a big issue is being made. Incompetence on display, but certainly not major criminal negligence.

I can't actually see why such a big issue is being made. Incompetence on display, but certainly not major criminal negligence.

The big deal is that a person's record contains enough information to make a pretty good stab at identity theft - after all, we've been told to shred personal documents, not simply throw them in the bin... now in true Labour party IT cockup mode, the details of millions of bank accounts and the sort of information needed to guess your way round the security questions going missing, all in one useful CD.

One thing this whole debacle has shown, that almost everybody involved (especially journalists, ministers and civil servants) doesn't really understand large amounts of data, what suitable precautions are - "gsi" stands for Government Secure Intranet - in theory they have a secure method of electronic transmission, so WTF was the data being copied onto CD for, anyway?  I suggest someone check the bank statements of the flunky who's just resigned...

Another side to the argument, would this happen when the UK has an ID Card system in place, then it would be the whole population records going astray.

The big deal is that a person's record contains enough information to make a pretty good stab at identity theft - after all, we've been told to shred personal documents, not simply throw them in the bin... now in true Labour party IT cockup mode, the details of millions of bank accounts and the sort of information needed to guess your way round the security questions going missing, all in one useful CD.

One thing this whole debacle has shown, that almost everybody involved (especially journalists, ministers and civil servants) doesn't really understand large amounts of data, what suitable precautions are - "gsi" stands for Government Secure Intranet - in theory they have a secure method of electronic transmission, so WTF was the data being copied onto CD for, anyway?  I suggest someone check the bank statements of the flunky who's just resigned...


It sounds like the main problem is that the people running the computer security aren't young enough to be familiar with modern protocols.  This is a common problem for IT departments.  You have aging computer nerds that don't keep up with the most recent capabilities, whereas the younger nerds grew up with the newer stuff.

In many ways, IT is the reverse of most industries in that younger people often have a skill advantage over older ones.

Further development, it turns out there are 6 more computer discs have gone missing.

These discs contain details of Child Benefit Claims that are currently in dispute and disappeared on route from Preston, Lancashire to London.

Once again, it is the same delivery company involved.

Well, it is obvious where the problem lies.  There should be some sort of lockdown of all involved. 

Well, it is obvious where the problem lies.  There should be some sort of lockdown of all involved.  
The police are right at this moment shifting all possible routes and depots the discs would have taken on the journey towards London.

Let us recap with the sequence of events:
18 October - Junior official from HMRC in Washington, Tyne and Wear, sends two CDs containing password-protected records to audit office in London through courier TNT, neither recorded nor registered

24 October - When package fails to arrive, second one is sent by registered post and arrives safely

3 November - Senior managers are told first package has been lost

10 November - Prime minister and other ministers are informed

12 November - HMRC tell ministers CDs will probably be found

14 November - When HMRC searches fail, Metropolitan Police are called in

15 November- Richard Thomas, Information Commissioner, says remedial action must be taken before public is informed

20 November - HMRC Chairman Paul Gray resigns; Chancellor Alistair Darling makes announcement to House of Commons

21 November - Prime Minister Gordon Brown apologises and orders security checks

If I was the wally who lost those disks, I'd be quaking in my boots!
"Uh, sorry minister, got a little problem here."
"A little problem?"
"Well, more like a BIG problem..."

That's happened in the States a few times too, though not such a gigantic amount of information.  I can't quite remember the specifics.  I think some intern just filched a CD with a bunch of classified information and walked out of the Pentagon.  Another bureaucrat said the disk must have fallen out of his briefcase on the bus.  Something like that.
::)

If I was the wally who lost those disks, I'd be quaking in my boots!
"Uh, sorry minister, got a little problem here."
"A little problem?"
"Well, more like a BIG problem..."

That's happened in the States a few times too, though not such a gigantic amount of information.  I can't quite remember the specifics.  I think some intern just filched a CD with a bunch of classified information and walked out of the Pentagon.  Another bureaucrat said the disk must have fallen out of his briefcase on the bus.  Something like that.
::)

That "wally" as you describe, has been dismissed from his or her position and is now under a protection plan. So far the name has not been released.

The government is now sending out apologies to all of those whose names are lost on those 2x discs. All is going fine until one man in Hampshire received a letter at his home address, addressed to the previuos occupant.

Blunders never cease!

There's likely to be hundreds, or even thousands of errors in the data - I guess sending letters to absolutely everyone is pretty much guaranteed to throw up some snafus

Time to bring out the block, send for the executioner

http://www.keeganprints.com/images/Executioner.jpg

Time to bring out the block, send for the executioner

http://www.keeganprints.com/images/Executioner.jpg
The current choice phrase is "Move Over Darling".

The current choice phrase is "Move Over Darling".

Has anyone done that as a parody yet?  It's a wonderful thought :)

Has anyone done that as a parody yet?  It's a wonderful thought :)
Go ahead, feel free!

Today has shed more light on this situation, it turns out the M.P. in charge of the Data Protection Act only knew of all this as the same time as the population of Great Britain.

That "wally" as you describe, has been dismissed from his or her position and is now under a protection plan. So far the name has not been released.

Is "wally" an unfair epithet?


The government is now sending out apologies to all of those whose names are lost on those 2x discs. All is going fine until one man in Hampshire received a letter at his home address, addressed to the previuos occupant.

Blunders never cease!

This is Inspector Cluseau style. Make a massive blunder, and then amplify it while trying to put it straight!
I don't know if you've got the saying in the U.K., but over here we sometimes call government incompetence: "Your tax dollars at work."
::)

This is Inspector Cluseau style. Make a massive blunder, and then amplify it while trying to put it straight!
I don't know if you've got the saying in the U.K., but over here we sometimes call government incompetence: "Your tax dollars at work."
::)
We use much stronger words to describe our government.

Go ahead, feel free!

Something like this...

Something like this...
Brilliant well done!