This really pisses me the hell off. I think vaccinations should be a parent's choice...whether they want their child to have them or not...how dare they be forced to get their children vaccinated. I, for one, do not believe in them...but that's a whole other issue. ::)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071117/ap_on_re_us/shots_getting_tough;_ylt=AtOAOy8OQhyjKyTsCVLzeLq9j7AB

UPPER MARLBORO, Md. - Scores of grumbling parents facing a threat of jail lined up at a courthouse Saturday to either prove that their school-age kids already had their required vaccinations or see that the youngsters submitted to the needle.


The get-tough policy in the Washington suburbs of Prince George's County was one of the strongest efforts made by any U.S. school system to ensure its youngsters receive their required immunizations.

Two months into the school year, school officials realized that more than 2,000 students in the county still didn't have the vaccinations they were supposed to have before attending class.

So Circuit Court Judge C. Philip Nichols ordered parents in a letter to appear at the courthouse Saturday and either get their children vaccinated on the spot or risk up to 10 days in jail. They could also provide proof of vaccination or an explanation why their kids didn't have them.

By about 8:30 a.m., the line of parents stretched outside the courthouse in the county on the east side of Washington.

Many of them complained that their children already were properly immunized but the school system had misplaced the records. They said efforts to get the paperwork straightened out had been futile.

"It was very intimidating," Territa Wooden of Largo said of the letter. She said she presented the paperwork at the courthouse Saturday and resolved the matter.

"I could be home asleep. My son had his shots," said Veinell Dickens of Upper Marlboro, who also blamed errant paperwork.

Aloma Martin of Fort Washington brought her children, Delontay and Taron, in 10th and 6th grade, for their hepatitis shots. She said she had been trying to get the vaccinations for more than a month, since the school system sent a warning letter. She had an appointment for Monday, but came to the courthouse to be safe.

"It was very heavy handed," she said of the county's action. "From that letter, it sounded like they were going to start putting us in jail."

School officials deemed the court action a success. School system spokesman John White said the number of children lacking vaccinations dropped from 2,300 at the time the judge sent the letter to about 1,100 Friday.

After Saturday's session, 172 more students were brought into compliance, including 101 students who received vaccinations at the courthouse and 71 whose records were updated.

That still left more than 900 students out of compliance with vaccination requirements, White said.

"Obviously, we still have some more work to do," he said.

Any children who still lack immunizations could be expelled. Their parents could then be brought up on truancy charges, which can result in a 10-day jail sentence for a first offense and 30 days for a second.

Prince George's State's Attorney Glenn Ivey couldn't say Saturday whether he would prosecute parents who fail to comply.

"We have to sit down with school and health services," he said. "We haven't ruled anything out. We need to figure out where we stand."

White said the school system, with about 132,000 students, has been trying for two years to get parents to comply with state law. That law allows children to skip vaccines if they have a medical or religious exemption. It was unclear how many medical or religious exemptions were involved.

Maryland, like all states, requires children to be immunized against several childhood illnesses including polio, mumps and measles. In recent years, it also has required that students up to high school age be vaccinated against hepatitis B and chicken pox.

Nichols said nobody actually came before him Saturday, but he was there if any parent asked to see him.

The judge noted the unhappy looks of some of the kids in line waiting for vaccinations.

"It's cute. It looks like their parents are dragging them to church," Nichols said.

Several organizations opposed to mass vaccinations demonstrated outside the courthouse. While the medical consensus is that vaccines are safe and effective, some people blame immunizations for a rise in autism and other medical problems.

"People should have a choice" in getting their children immunized, said Charles Frohman, representing a physicians' group opposed to vaccines.

Of course the Parents should be able to decide whether there children get shots or not. But the school district is right in regard to it's decision.

If you don't want them immunized, that's fine, find another school for them.

If I go to a restaurant I assume the people working in the kitchen have had the correct immunizations for dealing with food, if I had kids I would equally assume that the other children were not likely to be carrying diseases that can be easily prevented with simple immunizations.

Of course the Parents should be able to decide whether there children get shots or not. But the school district is right in regard to it's decision.

If you don't want them immunized, that's fine, find another school for them.

If I go to a restaurant I assume the people working in the kitchen have had the correct immunizations for dealing with food, if I had kids I would equally assume that the other children were not likely to be carrying diseases that can be easily prevented with simple immunizations.


why should a child be shunned from a school..just because a parent decides not to put that kind of crap in them?

why should a child be shunned from a school..just because a parent decides not to put that kind of crap in them?


Because 'that kind of crap' prevents them from carrying diseases that could quite possibly kill the other children.

For instance, Polio.

Because 'that kind of crap' prevents them from carrying diseases that could quite possibly kill the other children.

For instance, Polio.




or so they tell us. I know I'll get tons of Sh!t from most of you..regarding this issue...but it's something that I feel very strongly about. Anyway, I didn't post this thread to necessarily talk about why someone agrees or disagrees with vaccinations..like I said..that's another whole story...I just don't think it is fair that a school would do this to parent's of children, who choose not to. It's the same thing with WIC....you can't have your child on it, unless they have their vaccinations...why should children who don't...be punished?

Isnt there  a such thing as exemption from vaccination ?? How come this option was not mentioned ???

or so they tell us. I know I'll get tons of Sh!t from most of you..regarding this issue...but it's something that I feel very strongly about. Anyway, I didn't post this thread to necessarily talk about why someone agrees or disagrees with vaccinations..like I said..that's another whole story...I just don't think it is fair that a school would do this to parent's of children, who choose not to. It's the same thing with WIC....you can't have your child on it, unless they have their vaccinations...why should children who don't...be punished?


I do understand your point. Personally though I maintain that if I had a child, I wouldn't want them to be sent to a school that didn't require vaccinations. I'm not one of those people who's worried about germs and allergies and crap like that, they're kids, let them get filthy, eat dirt and discover what their allergies are before we wrap them in cotton, but to me, it's pointless and ridiculous to let them be exposed to diseases that could very easily kill them when we have vaccinations that prevent that from happening.

Isnt there  a such thing as exemption from vaccination ?? How come this option was not mentioned ???


I would think there would be religious exemptions.  In Lancaster County PA the Amish and Old Order Mennonites are except from vaccinations.  Of course they don't go to public school either.

Many of them complained that their children already were properly immunized but the school system had misplaced the records. They said efforts to get the paperwork straightened out had been futile.
That's pretty sick - being forced to court because the school's lost the paperwork...

I find it kind of strange that a school has this kind of power, but I can see why: low vaccination levels of contagious diseases (like measles) leads to epidemics.  IMO any parent who does not vaccinate their child against measles, TB and the like is playing dice with their child's life: the only reason it is partly safe not to vaccinate against measles is 'cause the majority of the population is immune.  Once a majority have gone down the "it's my choice so they'll stay unvaccinated " route, then the inevitable result is measles epidemics.  But, hey, they only kill one in a thousand, that's not many, right?

or so they tell us. I know I'll get tons of Sh!t from most of you..regarding this issue...but it's something that I feel very strongly about. Anyway, I didn't post this thread to necessarily talk about why someone agrees or disagrees with vaccinations..like I said..that's another whole story...I just don't think it is fair that a school would do this to parent's of children, who choose not to. It's the same thing with WIC....you can't have your child on it, unless they have their vaccinations...why should children who don't...be punished?


  “We can do this the easy way or the hard way, but it’s got to get done,” Prince George’s State’s Attorney Glenn F. Ivey (D) said at a news conference in Upper Marlboro. “I’m willing to move forward with legal action.”

  What a tyrannical pipsqueak...

  There are negligent parents out there, to be sure, but no law or threat of jail time will make them better parents.  One more argument for home schooling...

  Welcome to the machine...

 

The state was completely ham-fisted in their response, but that's typical as Philbo pointed out.

I'm with Davey here.  Vaccinations work.  They've saved millions upon millions of lives.  If a child is going to attend the taxpayer-funded public schools, it is reasonable for the state to require vaccinations as a public health concern.  I do not think the state should require vaccinations for kids attending private schools, but I certainly would want all of my kid's classmates (if I had a kid) to be vaccinated.  I know the controversy about over the contents of vaccines and the efficacy of vaccines, but if your child contracts mumps or polio, you'll wish you'd gotten him those shots!

There are few if any schools, public or private, that will accept children who have not been vaccinated for the various infectious diseases. One might literally have to home-school his children in order to keep them from receiving harmless vaccinations which would allow them to go to school and stay infectious disease-free.

Parents don't have the right to potentially endanger their children and the other children, especially for what I assume to probably be erratic religious and/or political beliefs.

I would think there would be religious exemptions.  In Lancaster County PA the Amish and Old Order Mennonites are except from vaccinations.  Of course they don't go to public school either.


In Connecticut your child is exempt if the parent

"(2)presents a certificate from a physician stating that in the opinion of such physician, such immunization is medically contraindicated because of the physical condition of such child; or

(3)presents a statement from the parents or guardian of such child that such immunization would be contrary to the religious beliefs of such child;"


Otherwise you must have your child immunised.

It doesn't sound as though the situation was handled very well, but I'm sure the parents all knew what they were supposed to have done.  It was certainly made pretty clear to us what the requirements were for our children.  (we still have to go back in february for their HepB booster)

Right! I'm in full agreement with the guys who posted above me.

Although the situation wasn't dealt with in a great manner, it's still irresponsible to not have a child immunized simply because one holds some sort of erratic fear or distrust of vaccinations that have, as Maxwell pointed out, saved countless millions of lives.

Right! I'm in full agreement with the guys who posted above me.

Although the situation wasn't dealt with in a great manner, it's still irresponsible to not have a child immunized simply because one holds some sort of erratic fear or distrust of vaccinations that have, as Maxwell pointed out, saved countless millions of lives.


In other words are the parents putting religious or cultural believes before the lives of many children?

In other words are the parents putting religious or cultural believes before the lives of many children?


I'm sure in some areas, yes.

And whilst those beliefs may be important to you, you can't indoctrinate your children if they're dead.

I'm sure in some areas, yes.

And whilst those beliefs may be important to you, you can't indoctrinate your children if they're dead.


Exactly.

In other words are the parents putting religious or cultural believes before the lives of many children?



It depends on the numbers involved.  If it is only a very small proportion of the population not being vaccinated then they are protected by the 'herd immunity'.  Once the numbers not vaccinated drops below a certain level (around 85% I believe) then there is a risk of an epidemic amongst the unvaccinated children.  Since some of these children are not vaccinated because they have compromised immune systems (rather than 'choice') then there is a risk that these diseases could result in deaths.

It depends on the numbers involved.  If it is only a very small proportion of the population not being vaccinated then they are protected by the 'herd immunity'. 


Correct.  Herd immunity is an interesting mathematical phenomenon. I'm not sure what I'm more scared of - the fact that we're dropping towards the threshold levels, or that for just about every once-obscure concept, there's a Wikipedia entry.

In other words are the parents putting religious or cultural believes before the lives of many children?

I would say so, yes.

I would say so, yes.


Some forms of Separatism are dangerous to other people.  Take for instance a polio vaccination.  If there is a polio outbreak among unvaccinated youth, it is possible to also infect people depending on when they were vaccinated.  The older polio vaccinations worked for only so many years, some people (like my parents have not had the newer form.)

I have to admit when I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said, "Parents ordered by court to have kids shot."  Well, that would certainly cut down on juvenile offenses!
:o

I have to admit when I first read the title of this thread, I thought it said, "Parents ordered by court to have kids shot."  Well, that would certainly cut down on juvenile offenses!
:o


  really? i thought is said "parents order court to have kids shot."

            anyways, i agree with you guys. putting religious beliefs over the lives of many children is foolish. hey, do any of you know if they still give small pox vaccinations? i want one!

   really? i thought is said "parents order court to have kids shot."


You wanna take a ride down to the courthouse, son?
OK, OK dad, I'll clean out the garage!!!
:o

I totally read that wrong: thought it meant "Parents ordered to court for shooting kids"  8-P

I totally read that wrong: thought it meant "Parents ordered to court for shooting kids"  8-P


LOL! :D ;D

Honey, I shot the kids!

. hey, do any of you know if they still give small pox vaccinations? i want one!


No, because smallpox has been eradicated. Except for the specimens in germ warfare labs.

I thought this was going to turn into a "vaccination causes autism" fiasco like we had here once before.

I thought this was going to turn into a "vaccination causes autism" fiasco like we had here once before.


.. I'm sorry, are my eyes fooling me.. or did somebody really say that?

You've never heard that argument? Sweet Nobody Up Above, that's one of the anti-vaccination lobby's key arguments!

You've never heard that argument? Sweet Nobody Up Above, that's one of the anti-vaccination lobby's key arguments!


This could be due to the fact that as soon as I see the words "anti-vaccination lobby" I automatically switch off.

Good call.

.. I'm sorry, are my eyes fooling me.. or did somebody really say that?


You must remember that in the Uk about 1998/99.  I know that because it started around the time I had my daughter.  Or maybe it was around 2002 when I had my son.  :-\\

You must remember that in the Uk about 1998/99.  I know that because it started around the time I had my daughter.  Or maybe it was around 2002 when I had my son.  :-\\


I do remember some morons raising a big hurrah about it but I wasn't aware they claimed it caused Autism. I didn't think anything really 'caused' Autism, you either have a high autism level or you don't?

I do remember some morons raising a big hurrah about it but I wasn't aware they claimed it caused Autism. I didn't think anything really 'caused' Autism, you either have a high autism level or you don't?


Some doctor (Andrew Wakefield (I think)) claimed that the MMR vaccine caused Autism.  The fact that he was developing his own MMR vaccine had absolutely nothing to do with his 'dicovery'.  Basically his research methods and conclusions were dodgy in the extreme.  Unfortunately the Daily Mail only screamed about his findings and not the many other researchers who pointed out his mistakes.  Even now many people won't allow their children to be vaccinated with MMR because it has been 'proved' to cause autism.  >:(

Some doctor (Andrew Wakefield (I think)) claimed that the MMR vaccine caused Autism.  The fact that he was developing his own MMR vaccine had absolutely nothing to do with his 'dicovery'.  Basically his research methods and conclusions were dodgy in the extreme.  Unfortunately the Daily Mail only screamed about his findings and not the many other researchers who pointed out his mistakes.  Even now many people won't allow their children to be vaccinated with MMR because it has been 'proved' to cause autism.  >:(


I can't believe I don't remember this. I recall there being a big stink, I don't remember the claims that it caused autism.

Yeah, you'd think journalistic integrity would extend to finding out that he had a huge monetary gain in the waiting if he could fob the public off with this load of bollocks.

Wakefield didn't prove anything. He didn't have to. All he had to do was convince enough idiots that he had proved something. There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccination causes autism. In fact if you think about it for more than two seconds, it's illogical to suggest that it would. No one knows what causes autism, but measles killed 345,000 people in 2005. Half of those deaths were in the developed world, and many of them would have been preventable through immunisation. Wakefield has the blood of 100,000 or more children on his hands.

Wakefield didn't prove anything. He didn't have to. All he had to do was convince enough idiots that he had proved something. There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccination causes autism. In fact if you think about it for more than two seconds, it's illogical to suggest that it would. No one knows what causes autism, but measles killed 345,000 people in 2005. Half of those deaths were in the developed world, and many of them would have been preventable through immunisation. Wakefield has the blood of 100,000 or more children on his hands.

Wakefield started sensibly enough: he claimed to have found live measles virus in the guts of some children with autism.  *He* didn't claim "MMR causes autism", he published his results and argued really rather vociferously that somebody else should try and repeat this finding, and suggest a source for the (active) virus that wasn't the MMR vaccine.

It all gets a bit muddy after that - I'm no longer sure what Andrew Wakefield has actually said anymore, as the "anti-anti-MMR" brigade swung into full operation and went on a character assassination rampage.  Certainly he has denied some of the more unambiguous quotes attributed to him, and what was printed in the popular press had very little to do with what he actually said.


Some doctor (Andrew Wakefield (I think)) claimed that the MMR vaccine caused Autism.  The fact that he was developing his own MMR vaccine had absolutely nothing to do with his 'dicovery'.  Basically his research methods and conclusions were dodgy in the extreme.

He was not developing his own MMR vaccine - he got into trouble for not declaring the conflict of interest that his research was being paid for by four families of autistic children, and what was "dodgy" about his research methods was not his research methodology so much as the techniques used to get samples from children (see his wiki page - it's about as balanced as any by now, after the hundreds and hundreds of revisions).

ISTM that the whole controversy could have been avoided by funding some independent research to see whether his findings had any merit - the few hundred thousand pounds it would have cost pales into insignificance beside the legal and medical costs subsequently incurred (not to mention the advertising budget for trying to convince people MMR is safe).

He was not developing his own MMR vaccine - he got into trouble for not declaring the conflict of interest that his research was being paid for by four families of autistic children, and what was "dodgy" about his research methods was not his research methodology so much as the techniques used to get samples from children (see his wiki page - it's about as balanced as any by now, after the hundreds and hundreds of revisions).



I'll hold my hands up to not checking exactly what he was researching.  I just remember that there was a conflict of interests.  Almost like Davey said I stop listening to the stuff after a while.  I have read the stats and studied whether or not to give my children any vaccines.  My husband has a cousin who allegedly had a reaction to the whooping cough vaccine and was left brain damaged so I really wanted to check things out.  I still went ahead and had my children vaccinated.

I'll hold my hands up to not checking exactly what he was researching.  I just remember that there was a conflict of interests.  Almost like Davey said I stop listening to the stuff after a while.  I have read the stats and studied whether or not to give my children any vaccines.  My husband has a cousin who allegedly had a reaction to the whooping cough vaccine and was left brain damaged so I really wanted to check things out.  I still went ahead and had my children vaccinated.

A lot of stuff was said about him that wasn't strictly (or even remotely) true - Private Eye probably ran the best coverage, most of which was pointing out how badly the mainstream media was reporting what had actually been said.  I agree that the stats made the right course of action rather obvious: all four of mine have been vaccinated, the last two after the MMR story broke.  Statistically, it's a no-brainer (to anyone who has any kind of head for statistics..)

.. I'm sorry, are my eyes fooling me.. or did somebody really say that?


Yep.  As others have pointed out, the autism link was debunked years ago.  Doesn't stop quacks from bringing it back up.