Finally a sensible message gets through to NOT issue licenses to illegals.....

Oh, the poor dishwasher can't get to work (or other odd jobber)...UH..they shouldn't be here in the first place! THAT'S THE POINT!

And if they were given permits, it would be a gateway to ANY other permit ...I remember 911 creeps with all kinds of permits thanks to the system and THEY got away with it...
BOTH-worker or illegal nogooders should be lumped together!  THAT'S ALL...

It was a dumb idea to begin with. I think Hillary lost a lot of steam by waffling on the issue like she did.

Ant

The rationale was public safety.  Illegals are going to drive anyway, so they might as well learn how to do it safely.  I never bought it. 

However, this just ain't much of a story.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/sleep.gif

The rationale was public safety.  Illegals are going to drive anyway, so they might as well learn how to do it safely.  I never bought it. 

However, this just ain't much of a story.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/sleep.gif


Actually following up...it wasn't a matter of illegals driving anyway..remember the politicians talking about 'we will then collect insurance from all drivers...etc.'

so then they switched to having them legally able to drive....waffle waffle!

I want some waffles now.

I want some waffles now.


From Hillary's House of Waffles?  :D

(I'm sure somewhere in the world there is a restaurant called that).

Ant

The rationale was public safety.  Illegals are going to drive anyway, so they might as well learn how to do it safely.  I never bought it. 

However, this just ain't much of a story.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/sleep.gif


This is New York we're talking about, not Texas.  Thankfully, New York has the guts to stand up for itself on this issue.

Instead of discussing whether or not we give illegals licenses, we should be spending more money and effort on securing the border and deporting these bastards.

This is New York we're talking about, not Texas.  Thankfully, New York has the guts to stand up for itself on this issue.

Instead of discussing whether or not we give illegals licenses, we should be spending more money and effort on securing the border and deporting these bastards.


Most NY'ers are already fed up with Spitzer and his crap...this was just the icing on the cake....

Spitzer only flip flopped on 2 issues yesterday....kind of a quiet day for him...one on internet taxes and the other on this "please feel free to hide away in the wide open in New York" fiasco...

I'd enjoy paying 5 bucks for a head of lettuce if we could send all illegals away...and the moron politicians who support them .....2 birds with one stone...

I can't figure out how this even became a question.  Talk about lame ideas.



This is New York we're talking about, not Texas.  Thankfully, New York has the guts to stand up for itself on this issue.

Instead of discussing whether or not we give illegals licenses, we should be spending more money and effort on securing the border and deporting these bastards.


I think it would be better(first to stop demonizing the people) to realign the borders.  Much like Ireland fighting to regain its independence, perhaps we should rethink the "annexation"(a sanitary description if I ever heard one) of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and Southern California.

Much like Ireland fighting to regain its independence, perhaps we should rethink the "annexation"(a sanitary description if I ever heard one) of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and Southern California.


Um, you're not serious, are you?  That would be the worst possible thing we could do to America.  You can't just hand over those areas to Mexico.

Besides, look at what Mexico is actually like.  They'd ruin Texas, New Mexico, Arizona & Southern California in a matter of years.  They already do a fine job of it as it is.

Ah i was missing the "illegals get out" thread of the month. I see Mr.Saver found a supporter,how nice!

Ah i was missing the "illegals get out" thread of the month. I see Mr.Saver found a supporter,how nice!


Every time I comment on this issue I get yelled at.  ::)

Personally, I have always thought that giving licenses to illegals was a bad idea.

And obviously, Mexico agrees.  In every Mexican state, you can't get a license unless you are there legally.  And they strictly enforce their immigration laws.  I find it rather silly that illegals come over here and demand "rights" that their own country denies to people in a similar status.

Every time I comment on this issue I get yelled at.  ::)



Happens to me a lot.  Makes life interesting  ;)

  Immigration is the concern of the federal government - drivers licenses are handled at the state level.  So, anyone wishing to turn the state DMVs into enforcement tools against illegal immigrants is asking the states to shoulder the costs of federal policies...

 

Personally, I have always thought that giving licenses to illegals was a bad idea.

And obviously, Mexico agrees.  In every Mexican state, you can't get a license unless you are there legally.  And they strictly enforce their immigration laws.  I find it rather silly that illegals come over here and demand "rights" that their own country denies to people in a similar status.


Exactly.  The next time any Mexican bitches about our immigration policy, ask them how the Mexican government deals with illegal Guatemalans.

Exactly.  The next time any Mexican bitches about our immigration policy, ask them how the Mexican government deals with illegal Guatemalans.


Thats a different story though....

   Immigration is the concern of the federal government - drivers licenses are handled at the state level.  So, anyone wishing to turn the state DMVs into enforcement tools against illegal immigrants is asking the states to shoulder the costs of federal policies...

   


...and state officials who seek to grant legal status to illegal immigrants likewise are contravening Federal law and are assisting in the aiding of criminals, which itself might well be considered a federal crime.

Spitzer did not give a damn about "safety on the highways".  His license move, which backfired, was simply an effort to pander to a certain constituency to get votes in a future election.

Thats a different story though....


Not really.  What's the difference between someone illegally entering America vs. illegally entering Mexico?  It's rather illogical to expect us to just accept people breaking our laws but not expect the same from Mexico.  In other words, until they change their own immigration policies, they have no right to complain about how we deal with their illegals.  We are, by far, the most lenient nation when it comes to illegal immigration.

Not really.  What's the difference between someone illegally entering America vs. illegally entering Mexico?  It's rather illogical to expect us to just accept people breaking our laws but not expect the same from Mexico.  In other words, until they change their own immigration policies, they have no right to complain about how we deal with their illegals.  We are, by far, the most lenient nation when it comes to illegal immigration.


My comment was supposed to be taken dripping with sarcasm...

tell me what driving and legalization have to do with each other.

My comment was supposed to be taken dripping with sarcasm...


Sorry man...  Tone is often obscured when in writing as opposed to when spoken.  My apologies...  :(

Have a karma...  I owe you one.

   Immigration is the concern of the federal government - drivers licenses are handled at the state level.  So, anyone wishing to turn the state DMVs into enforcement tools against illegal immigrants is asking the states to shoulder the costs of federal policies...


What cost?  Nobody is asking the States to turn over the names of suspected Illegals.  All they have to do is to not issue them drivers licenses.

And when you look at it, turning in their names would probably save them money in the long run.  Look at how much tax money in many states goes to provide aid and support to illegals.  The education, welfare, and health systems in California are literally swamped with providing care to illegal aliens.  There are estimates that as much as 20% of the state aid in some departments goes to the support of people who should not even be in this country.


Exactly.  The next time any Mexican bitches about our immigration policy, ask them how the Mexican government deals with illegal Guatemalans.


Or people from El Salvador, Nicaragua, or any other South American country.  And their response is like that of almost any other country in the world:  throw them out.

I often laugh when people describe the laws in the US as "Draconian".  They obviously do not have a clue how other countries treat their illegals.  For example in Japan, illegals when caught are normally thrown in jail for 6-9 months before they are deported (at their own expense).  And illegals there also have no rights at all.  An employer can decide to not pay them (and a great many do), and they have no recourse at all.  And this is fairly standard.

Personally, I most often look to the countries that are the source of the illegals, and wonder why things in their country are so messed up that tens of thousands are willing to leave everything to move to another country.  People often bitch about how messed up things are here in the US, but you certainly do not see such an exodus of people from our country (or from countries like Canada, Australia, England, Spain, and the like).

Maybe instead of bitching about our immigration policies, Mexico should take a good hard look at itself, and try to fix it's own problems.  That way, they will not loose so many of it's citizens who keep trying to move to the US.

In many ways, this is similar to the Berlin Wall.  At least 125 people were killed trying to get into West Berlin, but you never heard of people trying to break into East Berlin.  For all the marvels of Socialism, there were relatively few people who tried to actually move to live in the "Workers Paradise".

Maybe instead of bitching about our immigration policies, Mexico should take a good hard look at itself, and try to fix it's own problems.  That way, they will not loose so many of it's citizens who keep trying to move to the US.

QFT

This is New York we're talking about, not Texas.  Thankfully, New York has the guts to stand up for itself on this issue.

Instead of discussing whether or not we give illegals licenses, we should be spending more money and effort on securing the border and deporting these bastards.

Most of them are just trying to make a little money and feed their families.  There is a deeper, more involved issue here of our own economic policies dating back 150 years. 
  I will say it is one of many border security/immigration issues that the nominee from either party will be hard-pressed to answer.  In the nominees go hardline on immigration issues, they risk alienating the Latino vote.  If they go soft, they risk alienating the white conservative. vote.

Most of them are just trying to make a little money and feed their families.  There is a deeper, more involved issue here of our own economic policies dating back 150 years. 
  I will say it is one of many border security/immigration issues that the nominee from either party will be hard-pressed to answer.  In the nominees go hardline on immigration issues, they risk alienating the Latino vote.  If they go soft, they risk alienating the white conservative. vote.


After the discussion I've had in the other thread about monarchies, I think I'm going to have to sit this one out from here.  As has been pointed out countless times, what the people want is often not so bright.

After the discussion I've had in the other thread about monarchies, I think I'm going to have to sit this one out from here.  As has been pointed out countless times, what the people want is often not so bright.

Here, here. Qute true. 
However, the government itself is just people and we see what happens in dictatorships--the government does some pretty dumb stuff too, and there's nothing the people can do about it!
::)

Exactly.  The next time any Mexican bitches about our immigration policy, ask them how the Mexican government deals with illegal Guatemalans.


Mexico has probably the toughest immigration laws in the western hemisphere.  Mexico deports more people per year than America does.  They also have secure southern borders against illegal immigrants from South America but heaven forbid America do the exact same thing.  Or pass the exact same laws they have in regards to illegals.

From the Mexican constitution, all immigrations must be:

in the country legally;

have the means to sustain themselves economically;

not destined to be burdens on society;

of economic and social benefit to society;

of good character and have no criminal records; and

contributors to the general well-being of the nation.

The law also ensures that:

immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;

foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;

foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;

foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;

foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;

those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.

Mexico's main immigration laws:

Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

Immigration officials must "ensure" that "immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and for their dependents. (Article 34)

Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:

Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

A National Population Registry keeps track of "every single individual who comprises the population of the country," and verifies each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)

Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)

Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)

Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,

"A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)

Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)

Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:

A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)

Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

Mexico is pretty hypocritical, huh?  Imagine what they'd say if America passed the exact same immigration laws they currently have.

Yes, but this addresses the government and not the people.  Mexico is a virtual dictatorship and if I lived there I would probably swim the river, too.

tell me what driving and legalization have to do with each other.


Anybody can steal/buy/find a car and drive it. But by giving them licenses you're essentially validating there being here.

I've said my piece on the issue before, make 'em legal, tax 'em and charge 'em a big hefty fee to come and live in the U.S. Add these fee's to increase border security and claim a few new taxpayers as well, companies will be forced to pay these new tax-paying citizens the minimum wage which will essentially eliminate the advantage that illegal labor users have, thus, we have new skilled (because a lot of these guys are skilled) laborers in the country, new tax-payers and heightened border security.

Somebody give me a scepter and robe.

Anybody can steal/buy/find a car and drive it. But by giving them licenses you're essentially validating there being here.

I've said my piece on the issue before, make 'em legal, tax 'em and charge 'em a big hefty fee to come and live in the U.S. Add these fee's to increase border security and claim a few new taxpayers as well, companies will be forced to pay these new tax-paying citizens the minimum wage which will essentially eliminate the advantage that illegal labor users have, thus, we have new skilled (because a lot of these guys are skilled) laborers in the country, new tax-payers and heightened border security.

Somebody give me a scepter and robe.



http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/luxhello.gif http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/luxhello.gif http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/luxhello.gif

Anybody can steal/buy/find a car and drive it. But by giving them licenses you're essentially validating there being here.

I've said my piece on the issue before, make 'em legal, tax 'em and charge 'em a big hefty fee to come and live in the U.S. Add these fee's to increase border security and claim a few new taxpayers as well, companies will be forced to pay these new tax-paying citizens the minimum wage which will essentially eliminate the advantage that illegal labor users have, thus, we have new skilled (because a lot of these guys are skilled) laborers in the country, new tax-payers and heightened border security.

Somebody give me a scepter and robe.


Yeah, there are some definite benefits to that policy...but I'm afraid at the core of the "border security" issue for many is: "We don't want no more Mexicans in our country!"  This is neither the businesses that employ illegals nor the households who can afford domestics.  We're talking the Archie Bunkers of the country, and there is still a giant population of them!
::)

Yeah, there are some definite benefits to that policy...but I'm afraid at the core of the "border security" issue for many is: "We don't want no more Mexicans in our country!"  This is neither the businesses that employ illegals nor the households who can afford domestics.  We're talking the Archie Bunkers of the country, and there is still a giant population of them!
::)


..and they can jog on.

Here's what's funny. The Mexicans that end up in jail and such like.. are almost never those that have just come in to the country, it's the ones who were born here and grew up here.. kind of like everyone else in jail.

..and they can jog on.

Here's what's funny. The Mexicans that end up in jail and such like.. are almost never those that have just come in to the country, it's the ones who were born here and grew up here.. kind of like everyone else in jail.


Yes, again.  I have said before, when you work in construction you see people you know are illegal doing the worst jobs for the worst pay and doing the job well.  There isn't any way I can demonize them, though many do forgetting that a generation or so ago that that was their own grandparents.  It is one thing to vilify the process, another thing to vilify the people.

Every time an illegal immigrant commits a crime, FOX News pitches it as part of the "crisis" of a class of criminal aliens we're letting stream over our borders. 

This is something I noticed when I worked in a large grocery store in the '80s.  The immigrant kids who arrived with their families worked their asses off and didn't give anybody any hassle.  We had many Latino and Southeast Asian immigrants working there.  It tended to be the second and third generation kids who were bitter and delinquent. 

Look, there's the story that's always hyped in the pop culture about the immigrant family who comes here with all the discipline and work ethic and the next generation become millionaires.  This happens occasionally.  What more often happens is the first generation works their fingers to the bone and their kids still get mired down in poverty. 

Locallly we have a recent case of an illegal without a licence,who has been caught drunk driving before,who was driving drunk and smashed a car,leaving a mother with 2 shattered legs :(She doesn't know if she'll ever be able to walk again.But now the drunk has to serve a sentence here before he gets deported,which should have happened before.

Look, there's the story that's always hyped in the pop culture about the immigrant family who comes here with all the discipline and work ethic and the next generation become millionaires.  This happens occasionally.  What more often happens is the first generation works their fingers to the bone and their kids still get mired down in poverty. 


Yeah maybe America should stop selling that story to the rest of the world then. Those who had the "privilege" to see what is really like weren't so impressed. Why people still want to go there is a mystery to me,then again there is a current wave of immigrants coming to Brazil too when half of us are wanting to get out, south to south immigration they call it...what's the appeal of making less than 10 dollars a month? Before talking so much about illegals maybe it would be good to just open our eyes to what is the world around us,it ain't pretty at all.

Yeah maybe America should stop selling that story to the rest of the world then. Those who had the "privilege" to see what is really like weren't so impressed. Why people still want to go there is a mystery to me,then again there is a current wave of immigrants coming to Brazil too when half of us are wanting to get out, south to south immigration they call it...what's the appeal of making less than 10 dollars a month? Before talking so much about illegals maybe it would be good to just open our eyes to what is the world around us,it ain't pretty at all.


Of course, one has to bear in mind that in the northeastern U.S., most Latins aren't "immigrants" at all.  They're Puerto Rican; they're U.S. citizens.  In Massachusetts, depending on where you are, you'll run across some Brazilians, Dominicans, or Central Americans.  Very few Mexicans.  Mostly Puerto Ricans.  Puerto Rico is a beautiful island.  It's just dirt poor.  Some Puerto Ricans in the states do retire back home.  Most cannot even if they want to.  There's nothing for them there. 

Anyway, if I got hit by a drunk driver and woke up paralysed, I don't think the fact that the guy was an illegal alien would make me any angrier.  If the drunk was a Boston native with a valid driver's license, I'd still spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair. 
"But that illegal alien shouldn't have been in this country in the first place!"
So?  Joe Shmo shouldn't have been on the Interstate three sheets to the wind.  What's the big diff?
The problem is a lot of states go soft on drunk drivers until their fourth or fifth offense. 

Locallly we have a recent case of an illegal without a licence,who has been caught drunk driving before,who was driving drunk and smashed a car,leaving a mother with 2 shattered legs :(She doesn't know if she'll ever be able to walk again.But now the drunk has to serve a sentence here before he gets deported,which should have happened before.


Why just this weekend a mother got into a deadly crash while her son was found and consoled by an illegal immigrant crossing into the US.. the Santa Cruz(?) sherriff points out how illegals are usually demonized but ......something like this happens.

Let's reflect on this...do we send this illegal back like the rest or is that the new 'green card' way...do something humanity- wise and you earn entry.....I'm not 'demonizing' illegals, I believe in the law of the land!

Of course, one has to bear in mind that in the northeastern U.S., most Latins aren't "immigrants" at all.  They're Puerto Rican; they're U.S. citizens.   In Massachusetts, depending on where you are, you'll run across some Brazilians, Dominicans, or Central Americans.  Very few Mexicans.  Mostly Puerto Ricans.  Puerto Rico is a beautiful island.  It's just dirt poor.  Some Puerto Ricans in the states do retire back home.  Most cannot even if they want to.  There's nothing for them there. 

Anyway, if I got hit by a drunk driver and woke up paralysed, I don't think the fact that the guy was an illegal alien would make me any angrier.  If the drunk was a Boston native with a valid driver's license, I'd still spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair. 
"But that illegal alien shouldn't have been in this country in the first place!"
So?  Joe Shmo shouldn't have been on the Interstate three sheets to the wind.  What's the big diff?
The problem is a lot of states go soft on drunk drivers until their fourth or fifth offense. 
I know.The guy had done this before,but apparently got off with a lenient sentence.

I know.The guy had done this before,but apparently got off with a lenient sentence.



That happens all the time, too, usually with some cops kid(kid being anyone from 13 to 45)