And when I mean religious, I mean are you Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Bhuddist, Wiccan, or just plain Atheist?

I'm a Christian and to be more specific, a Lutheran.

I'm atheist, but you could probably already tell that....

I'm atheist, but you probably already knew that...

Ant

I'm a Secular Humanist. :)

I'm sure this comes as a surprise to most around here but I follow the Wicca religion.  ;) :D ;D ;D



Cat

I'm sure this comes as a surprise to most around here but I follow the Wicca religion.  ;) :D ;D ;D



Cat


WHHAAA?  Just kidding...

Well I am sure most aren't surprised that I'm an agnostic boarding on aethist-ism  or am I an aethist who borders on agnostic? I don't really know it just depends on mood

I don't like labels, but if you must: I'm an Agnostic.

I tell people I'm a satanist so that they will leave me alone, but I just believe in allowing people to express their evil without Judeo-christian dogmatic bulls**t getting in the way.

Do as you wish, just understand the consequences.

I tell people I'm a satanist so that they will leave me alone, but I just believe in allowing people to express their evil without Judeo-christian dogmatic bulls**t getting in the way.

Do as you wish, just understand the consequences.

Satan is a figment from Judeo-Christian mythology.  Thus, if you call yourself "Satanist" that means you ascribe to Judeo-Christian principles and you're going to burn in hell.  This whole Aleister Crowley/Anton LaVey line about Satan being a misunderstood rascal is a load of horse puckey. 

Anyway, I'm agnostic. 

Satan is a figment from Judeo-Christian mythology.  Thus, if you call yourself "Satanist" that means you ascribe to Judeo-Christian principles and you're going to burn in hell.  This whole Aleister Crowley/Anton LaVey line about Satan being a misunderstood rascal is a load of horse puckey. 

Anyway, I'm agnostic. 


.. as I said.. I tell people that to get them to leave me alone.

Come live in the mid-west, with the Christians.. and try telling them "Oh, I'm an atheist/agnostic" etc.. they'll harp on at you trying to convert you, much easier to just say "Oh, well, the dark lord has looked after me so far, now if you'll excuse me you pig-ignorant retards I'm going to go and sacrafice a goat."

I tell people I'm a satanist so that they will leave me alone, but I just believe in allowing people to express their evil without Judeo-christian dogmatic bulls**t getting in the way.

Do as you wish, just understand the consequences.


I spent all four years of high school in a catholic school and hated it. That's what started my negative perception of religion. I find a lot of hypocrisy there.  by the time I had to take the Sacraments class I was done. I wrote 666 all over my bible and in the gray plaid boxes on my skirt. I would doodle Lucifer in the margins and wrote death to all in big block letters. Fortunately it was the 80s so no one seemed to care about my welfare or the welfare of others but they did leave me alone and really that's all I wanted. My friends and I used to laugh about it at lunch cuz I scared a couple of the teachers.

.. as I said.. I tell people that to get them to leave me alone.

Come live in the mid-west, with the Christians.. and try telling them "Oh, I'm an atheist/agnostic" etc.. they'll harp on at you trying to convert you, much easier to just say "Oh, well, the dark lord has looked after me so far, now if you'll excuse me you pig-ignorant retards I'm going to go and sacrafice a goat."


I suppose I'd say the same ridiculous thing to get ridiculous religious fanatics off my back.

::)

I spent all four years of high school in a catholic school and hated it. That's what started my negative perception of religion. I find a lot of hypocrisy there.  by the time I had to take the Sacraments class I was done. I wrote 666 all over my bible and in the gray plaid boxes on my skirt. I would doodle Lucifer in the margins and wrote death to all in big block letters. Fortunately it was the 80s so no one seemed to care about my welfare or the welfare of others but they did leave me alone and really that's all I wanted. My friends and I used to laugh about it at lunch cuz I scared a couple of the teachers.


Hahaha, apparently we shared the same life.

Same here, got sent to Catholic school, saw through the lies and set about the process of convincing them that I was a lost cause.


I suppose I'd say the same ridiculous thing to get ridiculous religious fanatics off my back.

::)


Well, what's ridiculous? Obviously the whole devil in hell thing is ridiculous, it's fairy tales, but they believe it so it's good for manipulative purposes. When I say that I believe people should express their evil.. maybe I'm not being clear. I feel that the whole concept of good and evil is simply a perpetuation of judeo-christian dogma in to regular society and people should choose their own definitions of said terms, but much like Cat's creed says to not harm others, I would say if you choose to harm others, be prepared to face the consequences of your actions. Essentially, we all should have the free will to make critical decisions based on our understanding of the facts laid out before us without dogma interfering in the decision making process.

I guess I am Christian, but I am very logical about it and am not the bible beating kind of person. I am cool with you no matter what you are.  :)

I was raised Catholic. Not sure what I am now. I just go on my merry way and be open minded about what other people believe. If you want to discuss your religion with me, fine. I like hearing how religions started, what you believe, what the symbols are, etc. However, like many others on here, I will not listen to the "convert and be saved" crap or the "give me money and be saved" schtick.

i'm an atheist. i've never really believed in anything. i was half-heartedly soppoused to be raised Catholic. my brothers and sisters are all atheists.

i still celebrate Christmas and Easter for the gifts.

I tell people I'm a satanist so that they will leave me alone, but I just believe in allowing people to express their evil without Judeo-christian dogmatic bulls**t getting in the way.

Do as you wish, just understand the consequences.


You made me laugh(a good thing)... I'd been feeling alittle tired today. Applaud for you.

Anyway....

I believe there is a god(Went to the Christian Protestant branch type of church as a kid), but don't practice religion.

Come live in the mid-west, with the Christians.. and try telling them "Oh, I'm an atheist/agnostic" etc.. they'll harp on at you trying to convert you, much easier to just say "Oh, well, the dark lord has looked after me so far, now if you'll excuse me you pig-ignorant retards I'm going to go and sacrafice a goat."

:D

Fortunately the Christians round here give up much more easily...

This board surprises me at times: the atheist/non-Christian contingent seems hugely over-represented compared to the general population.  Why do you (and everyone else reading this, I guess) think that is?

This board surprises me at times: the atheist/non-Christian contingent seems hugely over-represented compared to the general population.  Why do you (and everyone else reading this, I guess) think that is?


Do you mean the board in general, or just this section of the board?  ???

I'm a Christian, but I steer clear of the politics section as much as possible, and I think I'm not alone on this.

Do you mean the board in general, or just this section of the board?  ???

I'm a Christian, but I steer clear of the politics section as much as possible, and I think I'm not alone on this.

I was thinking mainly about the subset of people on this board who've answered this thread so far... but anyone who's reading it.  You may well have touched on one reason, ISTM.




And when I mean religious, I mean are you Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Bhuddist, Wiccan, or just plain Atheist?

A quote I like, though I am not sure who said it first, is that atheism is a religion in the same way as not playing chess is a hobby.

i tried to pray the other night. i don't really know how. :-\\

This board surprises me at times: the atheist/non-Christian contingent seems hugely over-represented compared to the general population.  Why do you (and everyone else reading this, I guess) think that is?


I guess people are not interested in being mocked when trying to explain their faith,i don't know... it seems to me that in America you're all a lot more judgemental about religion, both sides(religious and non-religious)seem really angry at eachother.


i tried to pray the other night. i don't really know how. :-\\


Everynight before i sleep i pray,i pray for peace,for love,for happiness. I don't pray to God but to myself so i can find in me the strength to overcome the bad and keep hoping for the better future. And when i wake up,when the sun come through my window,for a tiny second i forget what's going on and just smile,'cause it's another day and i'm still here and i'm so thankfull for it:)

i tried to pray the other night. i don't really know how. :-\\


prayer is talking and however you do it is just fine.

I am not religous; I'm born again.  I'll be happy to share what I've experenced if asked.  I respect and listen to all. 

i tried to pray the other night. i don't really know how. :-\\


Karma +1 cuz you made me laugh again.... you were making a funny right?

This board surprises me at times: the atheist/non-Christian contingent seems hugely over-represented compared to the general population.  Why do you (and everyone else reading this, I guess) think that is?


'Cus all the bible thumpers are too busy watching the God channel to figure out this whole 'Inter-web-doo-dah'


i tried to pray the other night. i don't really know how. :-\\


It's like.. when you want s**t and you ask real nice.. except you say "Yo, God." I guess.. instead of, "Yo, Ma!"

I consider myself more "spiritual" then "religious", but they both fit me pretty well.

I consider myself a Christian, but am also somewhat of a heratic (because I do not accept the Trinity), and also a pluralist, because I accept almost all religions as being equal.  I consider the 3 Abrahamic religions (Christianity-Jewish-Islam) to actually be 3 branches of the same religion.  To me, the fighting is little more then a "family feud".

I guess people are not interested in being mocked when trying to explain their faith,i don't know... it seems to me that in America you're all a lot more judgemental about religion, both sides(religious and non-religious)seem really angry at eachother.

I've said a variation of this before and was pretty much dismissed.

The America part has a lot to do with the religious extremists who float around here, giving all religions a bad name.


Everynight before i sleep i pray,i pray for peace,for love,for happiness. I don't pray to God but to myself so i can find in me the strength to overcome the bad and keep hoping for the better future. And when i wake up,when the sun come through my window,for a tiny second i forget what's going on and just smile,'cause it's another day and i'm still here and i'm so thankfull for it:)


That made me smile. :)


'Cus all the bible thumpers are too busy watching the God channel to figure out this whole 'Inter-web-doo-dah'


You just proved the point Isabel raised.

Seriously, I want to know why it's okay for people who don't have a religion or are Atheist to make stupid jokes at the expense of people's beliefs. ???


Thrashmeister wasn't attacking anyone. He was making a valid criticism about an intellectual complacency which does exist within the greater religious community in the US, though he was doing it in a more biting and cynical way, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I want to know why it seems to me as though every criticism of religion, or every expression of frustration with the undeserved influence religion often has in lawmaking, is countered with some kind of indictment against 'the atheists'. It's not like atheists are the ones who exert undue influence on government. The only reason they have any influence in American politics whatsoever is because of a separation of church and state outlined in the American constitution, which every typical American hails as the greatest document in the history of the world. You can't have one without the other.

I find a lot of overreactions on the religious side. For example, the Catholic League's classification of Kathy Griffin's Emmy acceptance as 'hate speech', when all she did was make a few tongue-in-cheek remarks meant to be taboo and funny.

Seriously, I want to know why it's okay for people who don't have a religion or are Atheist to make stupid jokes at the expense of people's beliefs. ???


Well, it's not. There are times when I see stuff like this and ridicule what I see as extremism, but as far as stupid jokes, I don't do them (with religion anyway). I have told my stories of dealing with extremists as well, but again, they are a minority in most religions.

I have a few friends on this board who are Christian and we get along great. We have had civil discussions about religion, though we generally stay away from the subject.

What follows is not directed at you, Jess:

While we're asking questions, why is it some people (of any faith) act like atheism is the same as devil worshipping? I've lost count of the number of people over the years who have been decent acquaintances or friends until I mentioned my beliefs (or lack thereof). I have never outright dissed someone upon finding out their religion.

Ant

Well, it's not. There are times when I see stuff like this and ridicule what I see as extremism, but as far as stupid jokes, I don't do them (with religion anyway). I have told my stories of dealing with extremists as well, but again, they are a minority in most religions.

I have a few friends on this board who are Christian and we get along great. We have had civil discussions about religion, though we generally stay away from the subject.

What follows is not directed at you, Jess:

While we're asking questions, why is it some people (of any faith) act like atheism is the same as devil worshipping? I've lost count of the number of people over the years who have been decent acquaintances or friends until I mentioned my beliefs (or lack thereof). I have never outright dissed someone upon finding out their religion.

Ant


I don't know. I guess I'm of the Rodney King mentality (can't we all just get along?). I would think that because we are all educated people on this board, we would know not to believe the hype that surrounds the fanatics and extremists and would just say, "To hell with them" (for lack of better phrasing :D) and just try to understand our NORMAL fellow man's faith and beliefs. And yes, it does irk me when Atheists and people who have no ties to organized religion get crapped on as well. They are not the Devil, they are not going to burn in Hell (or sit in Purgatory), they are not going to steal your soul, etc.

I guess it all boils down to what you know about the religion (or lack thereof). I just don't like the out and out blatant disrespect and the lumping together of everyone into one category that I sometimes see going on.

And, if anything, the Phelps are so going to burn in Hell if such a place exists. They seriously scare me.

And yes, I edited out that question I posed. I am tired and thought I'd get rid of it before anyone saw it because I know snarky comments will follow. Thank goodness Red Ant and McDonald answered it normally.

There is nothing wrong with spirituality and religion is okay if thats what you want to do.  I respect your right to your beliefs and practices as I expect you to respect my right NOT to believe in these things. I don't go around spouting my anti-religious beliefs unless I am asked about my faith or lack there of... there is a reason why we don't talk Politics & Religion in the US.

My problem has always been with the people who feel the need to not only shout their beliefs from the rooftops but also insist you must convert and be saved or spend eternity in hell. I have come to the conclusion that I just might like hell for it seems I will have very good company there.  ;D

My father is extremely religious and we get in fights all the time because he insists all his friends accept JC as their lord and savior (he finally gave up on me!)

I tell him, it seems to me that "God" really doesn't need anyone to do PR for him.  He seems to be doing fine on his own and all the people who insist on "Spreading his word" are really doing him a great disservice because from where I sit, it seems like, if these whackos are who god has chosen to spread the word then I wonder why does god find the craziest people on the planet to do his bidding? Is it because they are the loudest?  ;)


there's also that hypocrisy thing and absence of tolerance that I bitched about on some other board but don't feel like getting into again. 

While we're asking questions, why is it some people (of any faith) act like atheism is the same as devil worshipping?


I'll take a stab at it.  (Coming from the perspective of a fundamentalist agnostic.  "I don't know if there's a God, and you don't either!")

The cynical answer is that when someone gives up all religions, the racket's over.  :)

The honest answer is that most religions (particularly the monotheistic ones, but it's by no means restricted to the monotheistic religions) are based, at their core, the following argument:

Axiom A) There exists at least one benevolent supernatural force that posesses Truth.
Axiom B) Humans can glimpse this Truth, but only through a process of divine revelation.

If you accept these two axioms, it logically follows that anyone who suggests that this Truth might be found through processes observation and reason is flat-out wrong.  If the religion also features an axiom like...

Axiom C) There exist malevolent supernatural forces that seek to deny humans the Truth.

...it also follows that anyone who suggests that Truth might be fount through processes observation and reason is not merely wrong, but whether knowingly or unknowingly (if you accept all three of these axioms, it's an inescapable conclusion) that he's acting as an agent of one of those adversaries.  By encouraging observation and reason (which can never lead humans to the Truth), he's actively preventing humans from finding the Truth. 

In other words, an atheist is a threat to the whole racket.  It's one thing to stop believing in Zeus, and to start believing in Jove.  I mean, somebody's gotta make the lightning and the fires it starts, right?  But to take upon yourself the right to understand the fires cast down from Olympus, and to try and bring it to mankind so that he can master it for himself... well, that's not just a paddlin', that's a chainin' to a rock so's the birds can eat your liver, and your liver can be made to grow back the next day so's the birds can peck it out again tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, forever and ever, amen!

Phrased more cynically:  An atheist is someone who takes it upon himself to write his own moral code, and the responsibility for judging his own ability to live up to it.  Now imagine you're someone like Larry Craig, Mark Foley, or Ted Haggard.  They know all too well the sort of moral code they would invent for themselves if they believed there was no God, and it'd make the Marquis DeSade retch.  And if the moral code of the church leaders would make DeSade retch (again, try to put yourself in a fundie Senator's headspace for a bit), what sort of debaucheries would everyone else (who don't have the "benefit" of a "good upbringing") come up with on their own?  "Live, and let live" isn't an option -- because to a fundie, "live and let live" only means "a 24/7 orgy of hookers, meth, double rubberized wetsuits, self-bondage, and autoerotic asphyxia, and then the autopsy report gets weird and that's just what us moral people - we who pride ourselves on our *ahem* self-restraint - would come up with for ourselves, never mind them immoral people who probably do that every weekend!")

I admire the religious fundamentalists.  They're the only people who've ever made say "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

Phrased more cynically:  An atheist is someone who takes it upon himself to write his own moral code, and the responsibility for judging his own ability to live up to it.  Now imagine you're someone like Larry Craig, Mark Foley, or Ted Haggard.  They know all too well the sort of moral code they would invent for themselves if they believed there was no God, and it'd make the Marquis DeSade retch.  And if the moral code of the church leaders would make DeSade retch (again, try to put yourself in a fundie Senator's headspace for a bit), what sort of debaucheries would everyone else (who don't have the "benefit" of a "good upbringing") come up with on their own?  "Live, and let live" isn't an option -- because to a fundie, "live and let live" only means "a 24/7 orgy of hookers, meth, double rubberized wetsuits, self-bondage, and autoerotic asphyxia, and then the autopsy report gets weird and that's just what us moral people - we who pride ourselves on our *ahem* self-restraint - would come up with for ourselves, never mind them immoral people who probably do that every weekend!")


It's quite ironic that part of my moral code is based around various religious tenets: thou shall not kill, for example, is a pretty good one no matter how often it is thrown out the window when the "need" arises. I also agree with the Wiccan Rede in that "An it harm none, do what ye will" is how I base many of my personal choices. Ultimately though, many of my choices come down to a practical, if not cynical, view of "What is the lesser of two evils?"  Not all choices in life are going to leave or have a clear winner or loser. Not that I am pessimistic either: there are win/win situations everywhere, but I find many times those are hindered by illogic.

Re: Larry Craig, Ted Haggard, the Reverend in the scuba diving outfit with the optional anal depth gauge and the like, I personally see nothing (well, almost nothing...) wrong in the acts themselves - it's the staggering hypocrisy which is unbearable. I also think that their narrow views of right and wrong, over time and magnified by being public figures for so long, actually helped contribute to some of their acts.

~~~

To those who have a religious preference: much of my ideology and actions are quite similar to yours. I have never understood the need or want to believe in something that cannot be proven (nor disproven, i.e. a god) for an artificially enforced code of morals and ethics. I apologize if that comes off as offensive, it's not meant to. I just don't see the reason(s) why following the accepted and often widespread is preferable to following one's own logic.  How many people, in any religion, believe their texts to be 100% accurate and infallible?

If you answered yes to that last question, then please tell me how, say, the Southern Baptists and the KKK can read the same book and draw radically different conclusions from it.

Just because you are of x religion does not make you right, same as me being not of any religion does not make me wrong. Though cliche, actions do speak louder than words.  Problems for me arise when actions contradict the words.

I also find it odd that, according to my last search, 90+% of the world's population believes in some deity(-ies), yet atheists, with less than a 10% (if not much less) representation statistically are so feared. Perhaps it's because a few hundred years ago (and less..) we were often greeted with capital punishment for heresy.

I won't presume to speak for all atheists with this quote, but it fits me:

"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."

Ant

I'm a Christian that loves rock & roll music  8)  & I think many here know that I am. I pray everyday, read from the bible daily, I go to church (almost every Sunday) and I love it.  Now, some of the things I say & do in my life or here on the board may not always seem like something "a Christian" should do or say, but I do the best I can. I enjoy my life as a Christian, much more than before I was one. I have more peace & happiness & contentment in my life & hopefully that comes across as I interact with people here. I think it does with my family and friends. I have a lot of non-Christian friends & I don't try to push it or sell it to anyone because whenever that was done to me, I turned & walked away from it, I mean I fled!  ;D I prefer to share my faith & experiences with people one on one as opportunity arises.


:D

Fortunately the Christians round here give up much more easily...

This board surprises me at times: the atheist/non-Christian contingent seems hugely over-represented compared to the general population.  Why do you (and everyone else reading this, I guess) think that is?
I think that's a good question Philbo. perhaps there are more Christians but they aren't confident enough to declare it openly. In many converstions I've seen or had involving atheist/non-Christian vs Christian, sometimes it appears the Christian contingent is on the defensive. That may be more than a shy Christian wants to get involved in.  I feel like I've engaged in those discussions as much as I wish to in this environment & just wanna come here and relax and enjoy the company of some really good people here.

what's your take on your own question?

I consider the 3 Abrahamic religions (Christianity-Jewish-Islam) to actually be 3 branches of the same religion.  To me, the fighting is little more then a "family feud".

Maybe "civil war" would be a closer analogy?


I guess people are not interested in being mocked when trying to explain their faith,i don't know... it seems to me that in America you're all a lot more judgemental about religion, both sides(religious and non-religious)seem really angry at eachother.
Er... I'm not in America.



I have never outright dissed someone upon finding out their religion.

Likewise... but that doesn't stop 'em from claiming personal hurt when their religious views are criticized - I don't know if you remember this thread...


Axiom C) There exist malevolent supernatural forces that seek to deny humans the Truth.

...it also follows that anyone who suggests that Truth might be fount through processes observation and reason is not merely wrong, but whether knowingly or unknowingly (if you accept all three of these axioms, it's an inescapable conclusion) that he's acting as an agent of one of those adversaries.  By encouraging observation and reason (which can never lead humans to the Truth), he's actively preventing humans from finding the Truth. 

Loved that post... but isn't that attitude a great example of religion's tendency to invent something new (in this case the malevolent supernatural forces) rather than even consider questioning whether their own views may be wrong?


I won't presume to speak for all atheists with this quote, but it fits me:

Does a pretty good job for me, too :)


I think that's a good question Philbo. perhaps there are more Christians but they aren't confident enough to declare it openly. In many converstions I've seen or had involving atheist/non-Christian vs Christian, sometimes it appears the Christian contingent is on the defensive. That may be more than a shy Christian wants to get involved in.  I feel like I've engaged in those discussions as much as I wish to in this environment & just wanna come here and relax and enjoy the company of some really good people here.

Theist/Atheist have very different starting points when it comes to debate (as well as very different ideas about what actually constitutes debate).  The biggest problem, ISTM, for the theist is that arguments from authority, especially where the "authoritative" source is the Bible/Koran/a.n.other holy book, simply hold no weight for an atheist; and there is rarely much else put into the debate.  So the majority of these debates turn into a restating of basic beliefs (or disbeliefs, OTOH).  You can look at it in a couple of ways: the theist says "you can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore he does"; the atheist says "well, unless there's proof something does exist, the default state must be that it doesn't"... and ne'er the twain shall meet.


what's your take on your own question?

ISTM that (especially American) atheists enjoy the freedom that they have on-line to say "I don't believe" without the ostracism and condemnation that they get from largely religious communities in the "real world", so they're a lot more vocal; there may well be a shy self-censorship from the Christians here as a result of past threads.  It may also be that large swathes of the religious heartlands don't get online (or if they do, don't pay much attention to the Decades messageboard).  Do you think we'd get a more accurate result for this board if we started an anonymous poll?

You just proved the point Isabel raised.


Pretty much. I'm very judgmental about it, I think if you've made the conscious decision to abandon rational thought, you're mine for the mirth making.

Pretty much. I'm very judgmental about it, I think if you've made the conscious decision to abandon rational thought, you're mine for the mirth making.

Who said anything about it being a conscious decision?

I'm a Christian, and lately I have been becoming stronger in my faith (because of personal issues in my life). I'm not afraid to tell anyone that I am a Christian...but I will never shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. If someone is receptive to listen to my story or what I have to say...then that is great....but I'm not going to condemn anyone that thinks differently than I do. :)

I once heard about this dyslexic, antagonistic, insomniac who would lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.




Ok, ok, old and bad joke but I couldn't resist-so sue me.



Cat 

I once heard about this dyslexic, antagonistic, insomniac who would lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.




Ok, ok, old and bad joke but I couldn't resist-so sue me.



Cat 


Karma+1 cuz you knew it was old and bad but you posted it anyway.... that takes lots of chutzpat (did I spell it right)

anyway it made me smile

I once heard about this dyslexic, antagonistic, insomniac who would lay awake at night wondering if there really was a dog.




Ok, ok, old and bad joke but I couldn't resist-so sue me.



Cat   
cute Cat . I've heard more bad jokes from Pastor's attempts to be funny in church & this one is not "that bad"  ;)


ISTM that (especially American) atheists enjoy the freedom that they have on-line to say "I don't believe" without the ostracism and condemnation that they get from largely religious communities in the "real world", so they're a lot more vocal; there may well be a shy self-censorship from the Christians here as a result of past threads.  It may also be that large swathes of the religious heartlands don't get online (or if they do, don't pay much attention to the Decades messageboard).  Do you think we'd get a more accurate result for this board if we started an anonymous poll?
I think that's an accurate assessment Philbo. Both sides can expect some anti responses to their beliefs, but to sit online and do battle gains very little, although a little persecution is good to keep one reminded to live their life in such a way that their thoughts, opinions. and beliefs are sharpened so that a person can give an adequate defense of what & why they believe.
an Anonymous poll would be very interesting. I like the idea, just for kicks .

Who said anything about it being a conscious decision?


Good point.

These poor brainwashed kids.. half of them buy in to it to such an extent, they wont.. can't rather, even listen to reason.

"The bible says that it's the word of God."
'Yes, but who wrote it?'
"God!"
'Where does it say that?'
"In the bible."

... and yet they don't even see this incredible train-wreck of illogical thought.

Good point.

These poor brainwashed kids.. half of them buy in to it to such an extent, they wont.. can't rather, even listen to reason.

"The bible says that it's the word of God."
'Yes, but who wrote it?'
"God!"
'Where does it say that?'
"In the bible."

... and yet they don't even see this incredible train-wreck of illogical thought.




I believe that the Bible does has an element of truth/history to it but a lot of it is mythology.

Most religions have their own set of myths-including Wicca. Most Wiccans understand that they are myths and should be taken as such-rather than the "written-in-stone" truth.



Cat

Who said anything about it being a conscious decision?



Good point.

These poor brainwashed kids.. half of them buy in to it to such an extent, they wont.. can't rather, even listen to reason.

"The bible says that it's the word of God."
'Yes, but who wrote it?'
"God!"
'Where does it say that?'
"In the bible."

... and yet they don't even see this incredible train-wreck of illogical thought.


So all religious people are dumb? Give me a f. break ::)

We've just read Mike,Erin and Henk are Christian,we know them from their posts here...they seem hella smart and very cool,are they alone?

So all religious people are dumb? Give me a f. break ::)

Who said anything about dumb?  Simply that faith is not a *conscious* choice: in the vast, utterly overwhelming majority of the faithful is isn't something they've ever applied any rational thought to at all. It's something they've been told, over and over and over again throughout childhood until the patterns of belief are so strongly defined, they are never consciously questioned.

Good point.

These poor brainwashed kids.. half of them buy in to it to such an extent, they wont.. can't rather, even listen to reason.

"The bible says that it's the word of God."
'Yes, but who wrote it?'
"God!"
'Where does it say that?'
"In the bible."

... and yet they don't even see this incredible train-wreck of illogical thought.


This scenario is pretty illogical. ::)


Who said anything about dumb?  Simply that faith is not a *conscious* choice: in the vast, utterly overwhelming majority of the faithful is isn't something they've ever applied any rational thought to at all. It's something they've been told, over and over and over again throughout childhood until the patterns of belief are so strongly defined, they are never consciously questioned.



Then how do you explain people who find God later in life? They had to have questioned it and made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to join that religion, right?

And I see nothing wrong with having faith. You have to have faith in pretty much everything you do in life, be it having faith that the food you just made will turn out good, or faith that you are raising your child right, or faith that you will make it to your next destination on an extended trip.

So all religious people are dumb? Give me a f. break ::)

We've just read Mike,Erin and Henk are Christian,we know them from their posts here...they seem hella smart and very cool,are they alone?


I've discussed this with Mike before. I know he's not stupid, but in my opinion he's abandoned a key tenant of humanity which is questioning that which one doesn't know. To accept things on blind faith without proof can be beneficial to one's wellbeing, it can also be very dangerous.

I've discussed this with Mike before. I know he's not stupid, but in my opinion he's abandoned a key tenant of humanity which is questioning that which one doesn't know. To accept things on blind faith without proof can be beneficial to one's wellbeing, it can also be very dangerous.
I abandoned it for good reason  ;D   
my human needs demand & shout at me to question that which I don't know, and I do, and I think about my doubts,  but this thing I've gained called faith and hope and belief in something incomprehensible is so strong in my heart & mind & soul, that I would rather abandon human thinking and logic than give that up.

Then how do you explain people who find God later in life? They had to have questioned it and made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to join that religion, right?

That's why I said "overwhelming majority" rather than "all" - and even those who "find God" later in life were usually brought up to believe that there is one.  The number of people who spend their childhood without having spirituality or similar theistic references rammed down their throats, then subsequently become religious is vanishingly small.


And I see nothing wrong with having faith. You have to have faith in pretty much everything you do in life, be it having faith that the food you just made will turn out good, or faith that you are raising your child right, or faith that you will make it to your next destination on an extended trip.

It's rational to have faith that something you've done many times (say, making a meal or travelling) is something that will pan out - that's experience.  Faith in gods simply doesn't have the same reasoning behind it.

I abandoned it for good reason  ;D   
my human needs demand & shout at me to question that which I don't know, and I do, and I think about my doubts,  but this thing I've gained called faith and hope and belief in something incomprehensible is so strong in my heart & mind & soul, that I would rather abandon human thinking and logic than give that up.


I agree. I mean, I have thought about my faith very rationally. Yes, I grew up as a Christian...but there was a point in my lifetime where I went against the religion and went my own way. But after thinking about things rationally, I have come to the conclusion that I need God in my life....there have been too many instances where He has been there to pull my butt out of some really crappy situations.  Like Mike said, it's about faith and hope. I feel that if I didn't have faith or hope in my life...then I would be nothing.

Well right now...I could use a Faith-Healer! Too bad I'm not Pentocostal.

Well right now...I could use a Faith-Healer! Too bad I'm not Pentocostal.
could a doctor help?  I remember when I was young, my mom taking me to some fanatical Pentacostal Holy roller revival and this traveling evangelist put his frikken hand on my head as he walked by and declared "this boy is going to be a leader"   :o 
that kinda freaked me out  ;D and I pretty much began my drug/partying lifestyle soon after this event so I'd say he missed that one.  but as for serious healing, if you're in need, I hope you recieve it in one way or another.

And I see nothing wrong with having faith. You have to have faith in pretty much everything you do in life, be it having faith that the food you just made will turn out good, or faith that you are raising your child right, or faith that you will make it to your next destination on an extended trip.

Faith is a fine thing if it works for you, just don't push it on me!
(I mean the generic "you," not you per se)

I think you're referring more to "hope" and "trust" in those other areas of life.

I abandoned it for good reason  ;D   
my human needs demand & shout at me to question that which I don't know, and I do, and I think about my doubts,  but this thing I've gained called faith and hope and belief in something incomprehensible is so strong in my heart & mind & soul, that I would rather abandon human thinking and logic than give that up.


See, here's the difference.

I don't need to believe in any big all powerful figure to have hope and faith. I hope I do good work at my job, I have faith that if I work hard I'll do it.

See, here's the difference.

I don't need to believe in any big all powerful figure to have hope and faith. I hope I do good work at my job, I have faith that if I work hard I'll do it.

Unless you get turned into mincemeat by some drunk driver on the Interstate or something horrible you can't control. The best laid schemes 'o mice and men...
It's not likely, but you know, these things they happen.
:o

Unless you get turned into mincemeat by some drunk driver on the Interstate or something horrible you can't control. The best laid schemes 'o mice and men...
It's not likely, but you know, these things they happen.
:o


Then I'll have a distinct lack of faith in the cops ability to do their jobs.  ;D

Then I'll have a distinct lack of faith in the cops ability to do their jobs.  ;D


Going off topic here, I just get disgusted when I see on the news a twisted mass of steel and rubber smoking on the highway and three innocent people dead; and then you see the dirtball drunk arraigned in court and he hasn't got a scratch!  Life ain't fair.
>:(

I am faithful and I use my talents to teach on sundays. I hold a chairman's seat on a board also.
I wouldn't force anyone to hear my reasons why.  I show my faith by example rather than by words; I am kind, caring, considerate, helpful and anyone who knows me can be sure I will be there to help if they call.  Oh, and my name sealed it for me a long time ago.  Michelle in Latin or Hebrew they say means "Woman of God" or "Woman who knows God". 
  I have lost family members the past 3 years and all of them had faith of one kind or another and I don't see any reason to change my views at the moment.

Going off topic here, I just get disgusted when I see on the news a twisted mass of steel and rubber smoking on the highway and three innocent people dead; and then you see the dirtball drunk arraigned in court and he hasn't got a scratch!  Life ain't fair.
>:(


Agreed. I saw something on.. I guess.. Cops or one of those shows the other day. Guy in a truck hit a cop and killed him, when the cops caught up with the truck driver and got him.. BAM! Popped him hard in the skull, I loved that.

See, here's the difference.

I don't need to believe in any big all powerful figure to have hope and faith. I hope I do good work at my job, I have faith that if I work hard I'll do it.
it's different & similar in a way. you don't accept or feel any need for a spiritual father/dad to lead you or guide you or help you in your life. you feel self sufficient and totally able to live life on your terms and to decide what's right or wrong and don't need  direction. That's human  nature and most of us can live that way just fine. Some of us experience pain, helplessness, emptiness, unhappiness, maybe things seem ok, but something is missing. I was always trying to get high, to reach something that wasn't a natural part of human experience. I don't know why, except that I wanted something, & I did everything I could to find it but nothing ever provided real meaning or purpose ot that sense of peace I really needed in my life. One day there was a knock on my door (my heart) & I opened it & I was given an opportunity to believe what the bible says of Jesus & without hesitation I accepted and now here I am, talking about it on a worldwide forum of totally cool people, some have become friends and I accept everyone as they are & for what they believe or don't believe & am glad to be a part of this diverse & exciting cast of characters, here at inthe00s

John 14:27 
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you.

Going off topic here, I just get disgusted when I see on the news a twisted mass of steel and rubber smoking on the highway and three innocent people dead; and then you see the dirtball drunk arraigned in court and he hasn't got a scratch!  Life ain't fair.
>:(


That happened to my sister's friend. Him and his girlfriend were driving home a couple of days before Christmas, some stupid a$$hole decided to drink and drive, and hit them head on. My sister's friend died, his girlfriend was crippled, and the guy walked away. My sister never really got over this because her friend was the only one to treat her decently during a very difficult period in her life (she didn't really talk to any of her family, including me, about what she had been going through). To this day, she will tell off anyone that mentions they were drinking and driving, even if they are family members. Can't say that I blame her though. :-\\

That happened to my sister's friend. Him and his girlfriend were driving home a couple of days before Christmas, some stupid a$$hole decided to drink and drive, and hit them head on. My sister's friend died, his girlfriend was crippled, and the guy walked away. My sister never really got over this because her friend was the only one to treat her decently during a very difficult period in her life (she didn't really talk to any of her family, including me, about what she had been going through). To this day, she will tell off anyone that mentions they were drinking and driving, even if they are family members. Can't say that I blame her though. :-\\

Jesus, Jessica, that's terrible!
:\'(

 

    i'm athiest, borderline illuminati. i freaking hate religion

 

    i'm athiest, borderline illuminati. i freaking hate religion

Illuminati?  There's no such bleedin' thing as the Illuminati!
;)

?  There's no such bleedin' thing as the ! ;)


fnord

fnord


who?

Apropos of this conversation, this article about Marcus Borg seems interesting.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/NEWS01/710170353

Personally, I'm not religious in the traditional sense but I am spiritual, especially in the way Borg discusses Christianity - peace, justice, equality - and, of course these are more than Christian values.

I believe that the Bible does has an element of truth/history to it but a lot of it is mythology.

Most religions have their own set of myths-including Wicca. Most Wiccans understand that they are myths and should be taken as such-rather than the "written-in-stone" truth.



Cat


   Sure it does.  References to historical figures and events abound.  The NT is fascinating in it's reflection of the turbulent times in which it was written, in particular Rome's occupation of Judaea and the seething resentment of, well, a sizeable portion, of the population.  Rome was the devil ("the sons of darkness" according to the Dead Sea Scrolls...) and Jerusalem was about to burn...

   The NT, in it's entirety, is a scathing castigation of Rome.  A guidebook on how to get by under their rule and a source of hope that the chains will someday be thrown off and that "they'll git theirs..!" in the afterlife...

    The NT is anti-Roman propaganda pure and simple...

  Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's lest you get killed...

  Render unto God the things that are God's lest you be branded a Roman collaborator...

who?


If you don't see the it can't eat you, don't see the, don't see the...