Interestingly there's no posts here about the "Jena SIx".  What's your opinion?

1.  Should the 6 all be released?
2.  Should the 6 be charged with a hate crime for beating the cr@p outta that white boy?
3.  Should the white boys who put up those nooses be charged with some sort of crime?
4.  Why are ALL of the presidential candidates steering clear of this issue?

Here is my $0.02:

1.  Jena 6 should NOT simply have charges dropped.  They commited assault and battery in a 6-on-1 attack.  "Attempted murder" charges are of course excessive, unless somebody has some video that otherwise would show that sort of attack.

2.  Kids who put up the nooses...  What crime does this comprise, and how does it vary from other forms of "offensive symbolism" such as burning the American Flag or sculptures of religious figures dipped in urine?  (I am assuming that the perps here did not put up the nooses and then start encouraging people to hang somebody... that would be inciting to riot or something like that, clearly a crime)

3.  I think the focus should be on prosecuting anybody who commited a crime here, rather than giving a bye to anyone, whether they be white or black.  Enforce the friggin' law...

i really don't know much about it, but i think Jena 6 should be charged with something. but not something too serious. i understand why they were so angry, and i hate what the white kids did with the nooses. sorry if this doesn't make sense. i'm on medication. plus i just got up.

there was actually a girl at my school wearing a "free jena 6!" shirt, and i thought it was a band  :-[.

I was reluctant to put a post up about it because it is a very volatile issue.

In answer to your questions:

1. Yes, they should be released. The bails issued were excessive, and the charges were beyond trumped up. I think a lesser charge should apply, but attempted murder is streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetching it quite a bit.

2. From what I've heard before the media hushed it up, the white teenager was taunting them and making racial remarks before they beat the crap out of him. Not an excuse by any means, but when you live in what appears to be such a racially divided town, plus having to deal with nooses being hung up, plus having just seen the boys who hung up the nooses get away with it, you tend to snap.

3. I think the school principal had the right idea the first time. Expulsion. Unfortunately, it did not stick, and now look at what has happened.

4. Because they're pussies and they know whatever they say will be scrutinized and they don't want to hurt their precious chances.

I've heard a lot about this in the past month. Many people in Chicago are up in arms over it, and a lot of people just came back from the rally they had down there. My personal feelings on it are sadness that such a problem even exists today. Yes, the boys were wrong for beating the kid up, but to charge them with attempted murder? Come on! What would have happened if it were reversed and six white boys had beat up a black kid? Nothing, I'll tell you that!

I hadn't heard anything about this, so I've just done some reading up... seems that a person's view may well be tainted by the source from which they get their news, in that this AP news article points out that some of the oft-cited "facts" of the case are nothing of the kind, e.g.

The story goes that a year ago, a black student asked at an assembly if he could sit in the shade of a live oak, which, the story goes, was labeled "the white tree" because only white students hung out there. The next day, three nooses dangled from the oak — code for "KKK" — the handiwork of three white students, who were suspended for just three days.

... compare with:

_The so-called "white tree" at Jena High, often reported to be the domain of only white students, was nothing of the sort, according to teachers and school administrators; students of all races, they say, congregated under it at one time or another.

_Two nooses — not three — were found dangling from the tree. Beyond being offensive to blacks, the nooses were cut down because black and white students "were playing with them, pulling on them, jump-swinging from them, and putting their heads through them," according to a black teacher who witnessed the scene.

That's the most obvious case of trying to sell a story to fit a prejudice...

Two fights between blacks and whites roiled the town that weekend, culminating in a school-yard brawl on Dec. 4 that led the district attorney to charge the Jena Six with attempted murder. The lethal weapon he cited to justify the charge: the boys' sneakers.

As far as "attempted murder" goes, that's plain ridiculous.  I've been trying to work out if the 6-on-1 beating was part of a larger brawl, when one guy on one side gets separated from his friends - the above quote implies that scenario, but the other articles made it seem as though these six black guys made an attack on one white on his own.  The latter would be, IMO, a more serious offence - a lot depends on whether the white guy had turned up with his mates for a rumble.  In that case, it's an assault charge at most; if the former, there would have to be some kind of conspiracy charge, plus.  However, from the media reporting of this, I don't think it's possible to form a reasonable judgment - too much spin has been put on the story by people telling it the way they want it to sound.


3.  I think the focus should be on prosecuting anybody who commited a crime here, rather than giving a bye to anyone, whether they be white or black.  Enforce the friggin' law...

Yep.  It would be interesting to find out whether there have been any instances of white kids being involved in a reverse scenario, and if so what charges were brought.  Certainly the law doesn't appear to be colourblind in Jena.

1.  Jena 6 should NOT simply have charges dropped.  They commited assault and battery in a 6-on-1 attack.  "Attempted murder" charges are of course excessive, unless somebody has some video that otherwise would show that sort of attack.

2.  Kids who put up the nooses...  What crime does this comprise, and how does it vary from other forms of "offensive symbolism" such as burning the American Flag or sculptures of religious figures dipped in urine?  (I am assuming that the perps here did not put up the nooses and then start encouraging people to hang somebody... that would be inciting to riot or something like that, clearly a crime)

3.  I think the focus should be on prosecuting anybody who commited a crime here, rather than giving a bye to anyone, whether they be white or black.  Enforce the friggin' law...


I'd tend to basically agree with what you're saying here.

Attempted murder is an insane charge, but the fact of the matter is, 6 guys kicked the s**t out of one other guy. There's no way they did that without the intention of causing harm, if charges are going to be pressed one would assume they'd be charged with ABH (Actual Bodily Harm). I believe this charge carries a maximum sentence of 7 years if racially motivated (5 if not) of course, I don't think a prison sentence would be of any use here but that's besides the point. Even if the authorities decided to charge them with ABH and impose a prison sentence, it would be ridiculous for any of the 6 to spend more than a few months behind bars.

With the nooses, I suppose it comes down to state law and the school's stance on racially motivated antagonism. If it was me, the guy putting up nooses would be expelled, he's causing a serious disturbance to the peace of the school and is obviously looking for trouble, I wouldn't want somebody like that in my school.

Right, impose the law, justly.

One of the points that was reported, but slowly ignored, was the fact that an African American boy had previously been set upon by a group of Caucasians.  Everybody knew about it, he took is beating, no charges were pressed.  I don't think you would have seen the outpour of emotion if those boys had been charged, and if the charges were for assault of something on that line.  What we have here is testosterone laden high school boys staking territory.  Such an old story, the prosecutors should be ashamed of themselves.  It does smack of racism given the circumstances.

One of the points that was reported, but slowly ignored, was the fact that an African American boy had previously been set upon by a group of Caucasians.  Everybody knew about it, he took is beating, no charges were pressed.  I don't think you would have seen the outpour of emotion if those boys had been charged, and if the charges were for assault of something on that line.  What we have here is testosterone laden high school boys staking territory.  Such an old story, the prosecutors should be ashamed of themselves.  It does smack of racism given the circumstances.


One of them had also had a gun pulled on them by a couple of white teenagers prior to the beatings and everything else. Of course, you aren't going to hear that, either. ::)

Bail should be reasonable and attempted murder is over the top.  These fine young gents should be allowed out on bail.  The charge should be aggravated assault and battery and they should be prosecuted without mitigation.

Just because somebody offends you does not not not give you the right to pummel the living daylights out of him. 

I understand the terrible symbology of the noose and the tree in that area of the country.  It's tantamount to spraying a swastika on a synogogue.  I don't feel sorry for that punk getting a beat down. 

It's still illegal and society cannot condone it.  To charge the six with anything less than aggravated battery would send the wrong message.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/znaika.gif

That's assuming that the white students were appropriately charged and convicted as well.  Ethnic intimidation is against the law.  What happened with those charges?  I'm sorry, I'm just really tired of people saying that things don't mean what they used to mean.  A noose is still a noose and it still symbolizes lynching African-Americans.  The Confederate flag is still the Confederate flag and is still a symbol of oppression and racism no matter "how you mean it."  Oops, got on my soapbox and off the topic.  Sorry!


As an aside, there were more nooses found on/near a truck in a neighboring town. 

That's assuming that the white students were appropriately charged and convicted as well.  Ethnic intimidation is against the law.  What happened with those charges?  I'm sorry, I'm just really tired of people saying that things don't mean what they used to mean.  A noose is still a noose and it still symbolizes lynching African-Americans.  The Confederate flag is still the Confederate flag and is still a symbol of oppression and racism no matter "how you mean it."  Oops, got on my soapbox and off the topic.  Sorry!


As an aside, there were more nooses found on/near a truck in a neighboring town. 




Karma +1.

I agree with you, and that's why it was crucial for the African-American students not to react with violence.  Dr. King would say so himself. 
Stir up no sympathy for the creeps who think racist intimidation is fun.
::)

Well it seems like this protest caused a rather scary backlash.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena25_websep25,0,4477421.story

Well it seems like this protest caused a rather scary backlash.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena25_websep25,0,4477421.story


Oh those scumbags!  Why do the neo-nazis have to show up at stuff like this!
>:(

Karma +1.

I agree with you, and that's why it was crucial for the African-American students not to react with violence.  Dr. King would say so himself. 
Stir up no sympathy for the creeps who think racist intimidation is fun.
::)




Thank you.  Karma+1 to you, as well.

Well it seems like this protest caused a rather scary backlash.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena25_websep25,0,4477421.story



I think I'm going to be sick.

  The Confederate flag is still the Confederate flag and is still a symbol of oppression and racism no matter "how you mean it."  Oops, got on my soapbox and off the topic.  Sorry!



So what is your point?  The swastika is also a symbol of oppression, as are "Stop Snitchin'" T-shirts and portraits of Che Guevara and Chairman Mao, and "No Fat Chicks" bumper stickers.  I don't see anybody being charged with a crime for displaying that stuff either, as I recall freedom of expression is provided for in the US Constitution.

Poeple who "proudly" display the confederate flag are juvenile, and few of them know what it even stood for.  Nevertheless to ban its display or to make it illegal as "racial oppression" is equally juvenile and not exactly "The American Way"...

So what is your point?  The swastika is also a symbol of oppression, as are "Stop Snitchin'" T-shirts and portraits of Che Guevara and Chairman Mao, and "No Fat Chicks" bumper stickers.  I don't see anybody being charged with a crime for displaying that stuff either, as I recall freedom of expression is provided for in the US Constitution.

Poeple who "proudly" display the confederate flag are juvenile, and few of them know what it even stood for.  Nevertheless to ban its display or to make it illegal as "racial oppression" is equally juvenile and not exactly "The American Way"...


I agree with you and don't think that people should be banned from displaying the flag they choose. But I don't think it's appropriate for a state to display that same flag.

I agree with you and don't think that people should be banned from displaying the flag they choose. But I don't think it's appropriate for a state to display that same flag.


I'd basically agree with this sentiment.

I have no issue whatsoever with people displaying whatever sort of symbols they want, if you find them offensive, don't look, simple as.

But at the same time, for a State or any sort of Governing body to display a symbol with obvious links to hatred and bigotry is Juvenile. The individual has the right to do as one pleases, the State has an obligation to be the example to follow.

So what is your point?  The swastika is also a symbol of oppression, as are "Stop Snitchin'" T-shirts and portraits of Che Guevara and Chairman Mao, and "No Fat Chicks" bumper stickers.  I don't see anybody being charged with a crime for displaying that stuff either, as I recall freedom of expression is provided for in the US Constitution.


Che and Mao?  What's this 1962?
;D

My dad was one of those hippies who had a portrait of Chairman Mao in his office, prolly to bug his boss more than anything.  I guess the hardcore hippies would've called him a sell-out because he had an office, which meant he had J-O-B, heaven forefend!

The point is I just don't know who images of Che and Mao intimidate nowadays!  I mean, you do see those iconic Che t-shirts around here, but all that tells you about the wearer is you can easily beat the snot out of him and take his lunch money!
:P

First, I want to apologize for getting this thread so far off topic.  That was NOT my intention.  Obviously, none of you has had a child who felt threatened by someone wearing the flag, so you don't know how it feels or how difficult it is to "simply look away".  I am tired of trying to get people to look at it from her perspective.  I won't be able to do anything about it until she is physically harmed.  Which leads me to my plea.....

Since LB made the same argument that I have been hearing from the school and my neighbors across the street, I'm going to ask that we let this part of the thread go, not only because I am tired of trying to fight this attitude,  but more importantly because it is off the original topic, which is an important issue right now.

I would like to know what symbols, that Caucasian non-Jewish males in the United States see that actually sends a chill through their spines, that make them actually make them feel an immediate threat to themselves and their children.  What is more troubling to me is that one of the ways that the powers that be in Jena thought to diffuse the situation was to cut down that absolutely beautiful tree.  That shows a group of people who so not have the capacity to understand exactly what it is they are dealing with.

I would like to know what symbols, that Caucasian non-Jewish males in the United States see that actually sends a chill through their spines, that make them actually make them feel an immediate threat to themselves and their children.


Hammer and sickle.

The greatest evil to ever be unleashed on the face of the earth.

Crucifix.

Second greatest evil to ever be unleashed on the face of the earth.

Crucifix.

Second greatest evil to ever be unleashed on the face of the earth.


I with you on this one 

I would like to know what symbols, that Caucasian non-Jewish males in the United States see that actually sends a chill through their spines, that make them actually make them feel an immediate threat to themselves and their children. 


How about the "Black Power Fist" that was raised at most of the Jena 6 protest. To me The Black Power Fist is just as
racist as the nooses.

How about the "Black Power Fist" that was raised at most of the Jena 6 protest. To me The Black Power Fist is just as
racist as the nooses.


Why do you think the "need" for the "Black Power Fist" exists in the first place?  I would continue in this vein, but all I will succeed in doing is driving this thread off-topic again, and I already feel bad about doing that!!!!!!

Why do you think the "need" for the "Black Power Fist" exists in the first place?  I would continue in this vein, but all I will succeed in doing is driving this thread off-topic again, and I already feel bad about doing that!!!!!!


Well No, there's no reason to stop discussing something. I think it's reasonably relevant.

There's no 'need' for a Black Power Fist, that's insane. I thought the whole idea of the civil rights movement was to establish equality and take the higher ground, not succumb to violence and antagonism?

Well No, there's no reason to stop discussing something. I think it's reasonably relevant.

There's no 'need' for a Black Power Fist, that's insane. I thought the whole idea of the civil rights movement was to establish equality and take the higher ground, not succumb to violence and antagonism?



You are right in that the whole idea of the Civil Rights movement was all that you said.  However, I think we have a long way to go in terms of equality if we are in the year 2007 and still discussing nooses at school.  It is one thing to tell these kids to rise above violence and antagonism, but another to expect them not to get beaten down and intimidated and not do anything.  Obviously, asking them to let the "adults" handle it isn't going to work when 2 different types of justice are being handed out based on skin color and allowing the nooses in the first place.  And don't you think it is sad, in this day and age, that an African-American student has to ask permission to sit or stand somewhere????????????????  It is a throwback to Jim Crow.

I do, however, appreciate your comment about the side topic being reasonably relevant.  Thank you.

Then I put this out there.  People have been asking me how I can get so upset by a confederate flag because it is just an expression of freedom and others have told me (not in the boards, but face to face) that the flag is simply a symbol of southern pride.  Ok, then isn't the fist just another expression of freedom?  Or does it mean more?  And if it means more, why is it strange that I feel that the flag means more and get sickened and scared by it?

How is it that white males can feel emotion about a raised fist but African Americans (and some Caucasians) can't feel emotion about a flag?

You are right in that the whole idea of the Civil Rights movement was all that you said.  However, I think we have a long way to go in terms of equality if we are in the year 2007 and still discussing nooses at school.  It is one thing to tell these kids to rise above violence and antagonism, but another to expect them not to get beaten down and intimidated and not do anything.  Obviously, asking them to let the "adults" handle it isn't going to work when 2 different types of justice are being handed out based on skin color and allowing the nooses in the first place.  And don't you think it is sad, in this day and age, that an African-American student has to ask permission to sit or stand somewhere????????????????  It is a throwback to Jim Crow.

I do, however, appreciate your comment about the side topic being reasonably relevant.  Thank you.

Then I put this out there.  People have been asking me how I can get so upset by a confederate flag because it is just an expression of freedom and others have told me (not in the boards, but face to face) that the flag is simply a symbol of southern pride.  Ok, then isn't the fist just another expression of freedom?  Or does it mean more?  And if it means more, why is it strange that I feel that the flag means more and get sickened and scared by it?

How is it that white males can feel emotion about a raised fist but African Americans (and some Caucasians) can't feel emotion about a flag?


I don't know.. to answer your last question. I don't get bent out of shape about it, but then again, I'm the guy with the swastika on the back of his jacket. Not necessarily because I buy in to everything that symbol has come to represent, but because I like to antagonize people and get my own seat on the train.
It'd be hypocritical to get mad about a Raised Fist, I fail to see the issue. Now, if it's somebody who goes out of their way to be 'pc' and be respectful of everybody's feelings, I could understand their dislike of the raised fist symbol - They're trying to do something positive and everybody isn't reciprocating.

How about the "Black Power Fist" that was raised at most of the Jena 6 protest. To me The Black Power Fist is just as
racist as the nooses.


Please, that is such a stretch. I don't know anyone who shrinks at the Black Power Fist, or anyone who ever did.  It is about as relevant as the above mentioned posters of Chairman Mao(never much of a threat there) or Che(likewise). On the other hand flag of the confederate states was displayed during beatings, rapes, and lynchings, and many times the people who should have been stopping the crimes from being perpertrated were a very big part of the crowd. The police, lawyers, and judges, all there loving every minute of it. The sheriff can sit and laugh at being brought up on charges because he knows that he will never, ever be found guilty of murdering civil rights workers while the stars and bars fly over the courthouse.  That has not happened with the Power Fist.


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAburning.jpg

Please, that is such a stretch. I don't know anyone who shrinks at the Black Power Fist, or anyone who ever did.  It is about as relevant as the above mentioned posters of Chairman Mao(never much of a threat there) or Che(likewise). On the other hand flag of the confederate states was displayed during beatings, rapes, and lynchings, and many times the people who should have been stopping the crimes from being perpertrated were a very big part of the crowd. The police, lawyers, and judges, all there loving every minute of it. The sheriff can sit and laugh at being brought up on charges because he knows that he will never, ever be found guilty of murdering civil rights workers while the stars and bars fly over the courthouse.  That has not happened with the Power Fist.


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAburning.jpg




Very well put.

1.  Should the 6 all be released?

Hell no

2.  Should the 6 be charged with a hate crime for beating the cr@p outta that white boy?

Hell no...  Hate crime legislation is ridiculous.  They should simply be charged with assault, like any other beating.

3.  Should the white boys who put up those nooses be charged with some sort of crime?

Yes, disturbing the peace or trying to incite a riot.

4.  Why are ALL of the presidential candidates steering clear of this issue?

...because it's political suicide to take a stand on this one.  No one wins from a situation like this, but it does show us quite clearly how hate crime legislation is foolish and outdated.  Things like hate crime legislation and affirmative action only encourage prejudice, because of the resentment they inspire in many people.  Jena is obviously a town still mending racial wounds of its own, but government intervention really isn't helping things any.

Laws aimed at ending prejudice are similar to laws that prohibit certain personal acts.  Hate crime legislation and abortion bans are similar in that they both attempt to legislate morality.  Yet, neither of them end the problems they seek to extinguish.  Racism will always exist, and abortions will always occur.

In this case, Jena will still have many racist people regardless of how this crime is investigated, but bringing hate crime legislation to the table only serves to anger the people involved more.  To promote a colorblind society, you must have a colorblind system with colorblind laws.

I think the prosecutor is being a bit overzealous on this one.  Okay, a LOT overzealous.  However, from what I've seen on the news and interviews with the families of the boys (particularly the Bell family), it seems like they want all of them released and all charges dropped.  Sorry, but 6 on 1 is a violent assault and they should be charged as such.

AFA the ones who hung the nooses, I personally think they should be charged as well.  Unfortunately, it's up to the prosecutor to decide if charges are brought and he's obviously not going to.  I heard (not sure if it's true or not) that the feds investigated to possibly bring charges, but it failed to meet the guidelines for a federal hate crime charge.  I also think the original punishment decided by the school board should have stood (or been harsher) instead of being overridden and lessened by the supt.

Along the same lines, those who think the school should have been allowed to decide the punishment of the 6, I disagree.  While hanging the nooses was a disgusting show of ignorance, no one was physically harmed.  I don't care what color either the victim or accused are, if 6 people beat the crap out of 1 person, especially when they're lying unconscious on the ground and you keep kicking and hitting them, they deserve to be charged criminally.  In this case, the prosecutor heard about the beating and decided to bring charges.  Should they have been charged with attempted murder?  No.  Did they get a fair trial?  Can't say because I don't know enough about the facts presented, but I doubt it.

Personally, I don't think the 2 were as related as the press and everyone else wants to make them out to be.  3 months elapsed between the incidents.  IMO, that's not retaliation, that's a convenient "excuse." 

...because it's political suicide to take a stand on this one.  No one wins from a situation like this, but it does show us quite clearly how hate crime legislation is foolish and outdated.  Things like hate crime legislation and affirmative action only encourage prejudice, because of the resentment they inspire in many people.  Jena is obviously a town still mending racial wounds of its own, but government intervention really isn't helping things any.

Laws aimed at ending prejudice are similar to laws that prohibit certain personal acts.  Hate crime legislation and abortion bans are similar in that they both attempt to legislate morality.  Yet, neither of them end the problems they seek to extinguish.  Racism will always exist, and abortions will always occur.

In this case, Jena will still have many racist people regardless of how this crime is investigated, but bringing hate crime legislation to the table only serves to anger the people involved more.  To promote a colorblind society, you must have a colorblind system with colorblind laws.


Thank you sir, very well put indeed.

On December 4, 2006, 17-year-old Justin Barker, a white Jena High School student, was assaulted at school. He was struck in the head by a black student, knocking him unconscious. A group of black students then repeatedly kicked him.

Some individuals have stated that Barker had mocked Robert Bailey, Jr., who had allegedly been beaten up by a white man the previous Friday. Barker denies that.

Superintendent Breithaupt stated that the attack was no ordinary schoolyard fight. "It was a premeditated ambush and attack by six students against one," Breithaupt said. "The victim attacked was beaten and kicked into a state of bloody unconsciousness."

According to relatives of the accused, the six defendants have all been expelled from school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six#The_attack_on_Barker

It's a shame this has the racial element to it.  Otherwise no one would care.

It's a shame this has the racial element to it.  Otherwise no one would care.


I can't speak for anyone else, but I would. 

I got in a lot of fights in school just for being who I was.  Lost most of 'em too.  Ganged up on.  Bullied.  All the crap. 

When Columbine went down all I could say was the reason I didn't do likewise was a never had a gun and a never wanted to hurt anyone.  The second reason being the more significant.

Then educators started saying...duh...maybe we should take bullying more serious-like.  Did 13 people have to die for you assh*les to come to that conclusion?  My junior high vice principal told me that's just what 8th graders did and there was nothing he could do about it.  Well, if he's gonna abdicate his authority then I gotta take care of it on my own. Vigilante city, baby.  I didn't.  I suffered through it.  Had I been of a different temperament, it would have been John Hughes meets Sam Peckinpah!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/fal.gif

I hear that the white kid had pulled a shotgun on the black kids before he got beaten.  I don't have any sources to verify this, but this seems to be the current rumor at least....

I hear that the white kid had pulled a shotgun on the black kids before he got beaten.  I don't have any sources to verify this, but this seems to be the current rumor at least....


I heard that as well, but can't really find anything in the media about it. :P

I can't speak for anyone else, but I would. 

I got in a lot of fights in school just for being who I was.

I meant the other way around.  No one would care about the charges these six are facing.  Al Shapton and Jesse Jackson certainly wouldn't.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you mean by "who I was"?

I meant the other way around.  No one would care about the charges these six are facing.  Al Shapton and Jesse Jackson certainly wouldn't.

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly do you mean by "who I was"?


I'm going to have to pass on the personal stuff here.  The healthcare bill thread got locked.  I don't know why, but we were off-topic and getting personal and that might have had something to do with it.  Didn't say.  Had to guess.  So I don't want to risk being party to another thread getting locked.