http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070901/ap_on_re_eu/switzerland_deportation_campaign

I'm so disgusted right now,i don't even have words...

I saw a debate about the immigration issue a couple days ago on the Télé Suisse-Romande news broadcast on TV5. It was interesting but it had more to do with the City of Zurich than with any national policy initiatives.

That's disgusting.

Scary

Ah, I'm glad everyone has finally woken up.

I've been disgusted with the Swiss for years, apart from their 'neutral' acceptance of stolen Nazi funds during the second world war, their misdeeds go much further.

Migrant workers who've lived in Switzerland for years have no rights.. at all. Now, here in the U.S they might not be citizens very easily, but they sure as hell have a shot at it, in Switzerland, fughettaboudid. Every year they kick out thousands of skilled workers, simply because they're no longer needed.

In Switzerland, you can be born there.. to swiss parents... HA! Don't think that makes you a citizen.

I hate Switzerland in a way that I can't adequately described using mere words, imagine all the stereotypes about obnoxious arrogant Germans.. except forget that the Germans are some of the most welcoming people in the world.. then add all the stereotypes about rude Frenchmen.. then add a little Catholic dogma and an exceptionally effete attitude.. and you have the Swiss.. although, add a pinch of buttheadedness.. and remember that Geneva is full of bankers. Replace b with w.. and you have the Swiss as a nation.

Of course what's funny here, is that it really has nothing to do with race.. like they'd even allow somebody that wasn't white and skilled in to the country.. ha! It's not really even to do with money, it's simply a case of, if there's no longer a need for said individual, they don't want them in Switzerland.

I'm proud to say that my sum contribution to the economy of Switzerland was getting off the tour bus and taking a leak around the back of a building. I like to think I gave some poor soul 5 minutes more employment, cleaning up my stain on the wall.

Ah, I'm glad everyone has finally woken up.

I've been disgusted with the Swiss for years, apart from their 'neutral' acceptance of stolen Nazi funds during the second world war, their misdeeds go much further.

Migrant workers who've lived in Switzerland for years have no rights.. at all. Now, here in the U.S they might not be citizens very easily, but they sure as hell have a shot at it, in Switzerland, fughettaboudid. Every year they kick out thousands of skilled workers, simply because they're no longer needed.

In Switzerland, you can be born there.. to swiss parents... HA! Don't think that makes you a citizen.

I hate Switzerland in a way that I can't adequately described using mere words, imagine all the stereotypes about obnoxious arrogant Germans.. except forget that the Germans are some of the most welcoming people in the world.. then add all the stereotypes about rude Frenchmen.. then add a little Catholic dogma and an exceptionally effete attitude.. and you have the Swiss.. although, add a pinch of buttheadedness.. and remember that Geneva is full of bankers. Replace b with w.. and you have the Swiss as a nation.

Of course what's funny here, is that it really has nothing to do with race.. like they'd even allow somebody that wasn't white and skilled in to the country.. ha! It's not really even to do with money, it's simply a case of, if there's no longer a need for said individual, they don't want them in Switzerland.

I'm proud to say that my sum contribution to the economy of Switzerland was getting off the tour bus and taking a leak around the back of a building. I like to think I gave some poor soul 5 minutes more employment, cleaning up my stain on the wall.

Well, at least you can keep a gun in your home in Switzerland!
Oh, wait a minute, you are required to keep a gun in your home in Switzerland.
:-\\

Well, at least you can keep a gun in your home in Switzerland!
Oh, wait a minute, you are required to keep a gun in your home in Switzerland.
:-\\


In case you think your neighbors are harming the general economic harmony of the canon.

Ah, I'm glad everyone has finally woken up.

I've been disgusted with the Swiss for years, apart from their 'neutral' acceptance of stolen Nazi funds during the second world war, their misdeeds go much further.

Migrant workers who've lived in Switzerland for years have no rights.. at all. Now, here in the U.S they might not be citizens very easily, but they sure as hell have a shot at it, in Switzerland, fughettaboudid. Every year they kick out thousands of skilled workers, simply because they're no longer needed.

In Switzerland, you can be born there.. to swiss parents... HA! Don't think that makes you a citizen.

I hate Switzerland in a way that I can't adequately described using mere words, imagine all the stereotypes about obnoxious arrogant Germans.. except forget that the Germans are some of the most welcoming people in the world.. then add all the stereotypes about rude Frenchmen.. then add a little Catholic dogma and an exceptionally effete attitude.. and you have the Swiss.. although, add a pinch of buttheadedness.. and remember that Geneva is full of bankers. Replace b with w.. and you have the Swiss as a nation.

Of course what's funny here, is that it really has nothing to do with race.. like they'd even allow somebody that wasn't white and skilled in to the country.. ha! It's not really even to do with money, it's simply a case of, if there's no longer a need for said individual, they don't want them in Switzerland.

I'm proud to say that my sum contribution to the economy of Switzerland was getting off the tour bus and taking a leak around the back of a building. I like to think I gave some poor soul 5 minutes more employment, cleaning up my stain on the wall.


Karma,Davey.

Switzerland has always been such a strange place,all the peaceful thing feels so forced. But what shocks me now is that they have 20% of foreign population,who are good enough to work but not good enough to be citizens,it reminds me of slavery. In a so called 1st world country,headquarters of UNHCR,they're putting up this shockingly racist posters and saying that the family of criminals are responsible for their crimes and should be deported too,all in the name of security,like there's any reason that can legitimate this? It scares the hell out of me,where the world is headed,it's like all the mistakes of the past have just been forgotten.

In case you think your neighbors are harming the general economic harmony of the canon.


REEE-CO-LAAAAH!!!!

i think it may be time to go to war with switzerland. catch em with their pants down.

Karma,Davey.

Switzerland has always been such a strange place,all the peaceful thing feels so forced. But what shocks me now is that they have 20% of foreign population,who are good enough to work but not good enough to be citizens,it reminds me of slavery. In a so called 1st world country,headquarters of UNHCR,they're putting up this shockingly racist posters and saying that the family of criminals are responsible for their crimes and should be deported too,all in the name of security,like there's any reason that can legitimate this? It scares the hell out of me,where the world is headed,it's like all the mistakes of the past have just been forgotten.


I wouldn't worry too much for the rest of the world, the Swiss have always been like this. They're the South Africa of Europe.

I remember when I went to South Africa being somewhat stunned at the outright racist attitudes. Now, I am by no means a sensitive, PC, bleeding heart sort of individual, I use more ethnic slurs that most klan meetings.. of course.. I will make the point that i generally do so in jest.. and I'm not above pointing at my own fairly mongrolish heritage and laughing.. but boy, in South Africa it's right there in your face. Whereas in the U.S we might say "Oh no, blacks have just as much of an opportunity as whites." Basically lieing through our teeth.. in South Africa it'll be something along the lines of "No.. I don't want no colored fellas workin' for me, they're all bloody useless." It's certainly interesting.

Switzerland is the same, they don't sugar coat it, if you're not going to benefit Switzerland, f**k off.

I use more ethnic slurs that most klan meetings.. of course.. I will make the point that i generally do so in jest.. and I'm not above pointing at my own fairly mongrolish heritage and laughing.. i can attest to that. davey's a good sort.

I wouldn't worry too much for the rest of the world, the Swiss have always been like this. They're the South Africa of Europe.

I remember when I went to South Africa being somewhat stunned at the outright racist attitudes. Now, I am by no means a sensitive, PC, bleeding heart sort of individual, I use more ethnic slurs that most klan meetings.. of course.. I will make the point that i generally do so in jest.. and I'm not above pointing at my own fairly mongrolish heritage and laughing.. but boy, in South Africa it's right there in your face. Whereas in the U.S we might say "Oh no, blacks have just as much of an opportunity as whites." Basically lieing through our teeth.. in South Africa it'll be something along the lines of "No.. I don't want no colored fellas workin' for me, they're all bloody useless." It's certainly interesting.

Switzerland is the same, they don't sugar coat it, if you're not going to benefit Switzerland, f**k off.


I never went to South Africa, but I encountered the attitude from a South African guy I was hanging out with in Manchester (UK).  Anglo guy named Graham.  This was about the time apartheid was ending.  Now, I just assumed....assumed....that any decent fellow would be against apartheid and anti-racist.  Right.  Graham seemed like a decent kind of fellow, so I started talking about restitution after apartheid, and Graham immediately says, "Oh, no, no...no, you can't give the black anything.  He'll just destroy it.  If it's something like a car or a washing machine, he'll just tear it to pieces and scatter the parts everywhere....I've seen it.  If you lend them even a shovel or a crowbar it'll come back bent up or broken."  He wasn't angry with me; he was completely matter-of-fact, like he was talking about the law of gravity or something.  He was the first bona-fide white supremicist I ever knew.  No question about it.  He didn't need to be nasty about it because you don't have to be nasty when you're perfectly comfortable with "the truth."  And what does an American boy know about it anyway? 
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/confused2.gif

i can attest to that. davey's a good sort.


Right, thanks pal.. and when you come from the same Viking/Fenian/Indian/Italian/Jewish/Algerian... mixed up f**kin genetic background I do, it's hard to sling mud.  ;D


I never went to South Africa, but I encountered the attitude from a South African guy I was hanging out with in Manchester (UK).  Anglo guy named Graham.  This was about the time apartheid was ending.  Now, I just assumed....assumed....that any decent fellow would be against apartheid and anti-racist.  Right.  Graham seemed like a decent kind of fellow, so I started talking about restitution after apartheid, and Graham immediately says, "Oh, no, no...no, you can't give the black anything.  He'll just destroy it.  If it's something like a car or a washing machine, he'll just tear it to pieces and scatter the parts everywhere....I've seen it.  If you lend them even a shovel or a crowbar it'll come back bent up or broken."  He wasn't angry with me; he was completely matter-of-fact, like he was talking about the law of gravity or something.  He was the first bona-fide white supremicist I ever knew.  No question about it.  He didn't need to be nasty about it because you don't have to be nasty when you're perfectly comfortable with "the truth."  And what does an American boy know about it anyway? 
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/confused2.gif


It's bizarre. I'd never really seen that sort of.. accepted racism before. It was really strange, sort of how I imagine the south 50 years ago.. except.. there was no real hatred towards the blacks, it was more sort of pity, like "Oh dear, how would they ever get on without us.. silly idiots." kind of thing, like they were retarded or something. I don't want to give anybody the wrong idea and say that the Blacks are/were hatred in South Africa, that couldn't be further from the truth, it's just exactly like you said Max.. it's not just a thought that the whites are superior.. it's simple common knowledge, like you're obviously a bit dense if you don't know.

Right, thanks pal.. and when you come from the same Viking/Fenian/Indian/Italian/Jewish/Algerian... mixed up f**kin genetic background I do, it's hard to sling mud.  ;D

It's bizarre. I'd never really seen that sort of.. accepted racism before. It was really strange, sort of how I imagine the south 50 years ago.. except.. there was no real hatred towards the blacks, it was more sort of pity, like "Oh dear, how would they ever get on without us.. silly idiots." kind of thing, like they were retarded or something. I don't want to give anybody the wrong idea and say that the Blacks are/were hatred in South Africa, that couldn't be further from the truth, it's just exactly like you said Max.. it's not just a thought that the whites are superior.. it's simple common knowledge, like you're obviously a bit dense if you don't know.

It was actually like that in the U.S. prior to 1950s.  If you look at the treatment of African-Americans in old movies, the men tended to be child-like (Uncle Remus) and the women tended to be maternal (Mammy). It made them non-threatening. 

As Strom Thurmond said during the Watts riots (1965), "Them's just nigruhs." 

In other words, they were as unsupervised children.  If the white mand doesn't keep them domesticated, of course there's going to to be trouble. 

Of course, the "domesticated" nature was beaten into African-Americans and held there by a permanent state of terror. 

The exchange between Virgil Tibbs and Eric Endicott in "In the Heat of the Night" is a good illustration of this.  To enrage the white establishment, you didn't have to go so far as to say blacks wanted equality with whites, but only to suggest blacks should be reckoned with as human beings

Who knows how long this struggle is going to take in South Africa.

It was actually like that in the U.S. prior to 1950s.  If you look at the treatment of African-Americans in old movies, the men tended to be child-like (Uncle Remus) and the women tended to be maternal (Mammy). It made them non-threatening. 

As Strom Thurmond said during the Watts riots (1965), "Them's just nigruhs." 

In other words, they were as unsupervised children.  If the white mand doesn't keep them domesticated, of course there's going to to be trouble. 

Of course, the "domesticated" nature was beaten into African-Americans and held there by a permanent state of terror. 

The exchange between Virgil Tibbs and Eric Endicott in "In the Heat of the Night" is a good illustration of this.  To enrage the white establishment, you didn't have to go so far as to say blacks wanted equality with whites, but only to suggest blacks should be reckoned with as human beings

Who knows how long this struggle is going to take in South Africa.


As far as I can see it's simply there to stay.

It's an interesting catch-22 really. For instance, Zimbabwe, S. Africa's neighbor came under total black rule and almost over night became one of the poorest nations on earth, there's so many examples in Africa to exacerbate the idea.

As far as I can see it's simply there to stay.

It's an interesting catch-22 really. For instance, Zimbabwe, S. Africa's neighbor came under total black rule and almost over night became one of the poorest nations on earth, there's so many examples in Africa to exacerbate the idea.


That's such an unfair argument!

So Zimbabwe and other african nations are poor because the "white man" left?Or because the "white man",through slavery,through colonialism,simply ruined their rich natural resources,their population,by turning Africa into what was convenient for "him"? >:(
Why are there so many african countries at war?If not because colonialism basically dismantle their entire continent?Creating factitious countries,there are civil wars all around,because all the tribes feel entitled to that piece of land,a little like in the Middle East,and look...they're not so dark skinned overthere,are they?
Blacks were seen as a lower race so slavery could be justified,they were told that their way of doing things was outdated,not good enough,the european way was the only one,the best way.They broke apart entire civilizations,never letting them develop their skills,so that they had to adjust to the "white way",so different from what they knew and needed.

That's such an unfair argument!

So Zimbabwe and other african nations are poor because the "white man" left?Or because the "white man",through slavery,through colonialism,simply ruined their rich natural resources,their population,by turning Africa into what was convenient for "him"? >:(
Why are there so many african countries at war?If not because colonialism basically dismantle their entire continent?Creating factitious countries,there are civil wars all around,because all the tribes feel entitled to that piece of land,a little like in the Middle East,and look...they're not so dark skinned overthere,are they?
Blacks were seen as a lower race so slavery could be justified,they were told that their way of doing things was outdated,not good enough,the european way was the only one,the best way.They broke apart entire civilizations,never letting them develop their skills,so that they had to adjust to the "white way",so different from what they knew and needed.


Which is a perfectly fair argument. But go to South Africa, where nobody thinks like that.. and then see examples like Zimbabwe and try and convince somebody that aparthide is wrong.

That's the whole point I'm making, once that argument is made, it's so easy to back it up with a lot of the 'dubious' nations in Africa that it becomes true to the populace.

i have a feeling south africa might have turned out the way it did -- with a significant white population and a more balanced economy etc. -- because where it's situated you can access shipping routes to the west but also shipping routes to asia. i think the trick with colonialism is to restrict subject nations to providing raw materials -- so that most african nations are exploited for things like raw diamonds, crude oil, and unprocessed minerals. but these are shipped west or north to european cities or, later on, to the US to get refined. thus you have drills in nigeria, but not a lot of refineries. you might have a country rich in zinc deposits in africa, but that in no way guarantees that a battery manufacturing plant will crop there to give the locals jobs.

anyway, this guarantees that the locals in the countries thus subjected don't end up doing dangerous things like learning crafts, becoming literate or becoming politically aware and keeps them in grinding poverty, which, unfortunately, is good for the bottom line for the western companies who've decided to take advantage of them. as for south africa, it is such a confluence of diamond resources and busy shipping lanes that it paid to create refinement facilities there -- thus it became more of a white outpost in the continent, and developed a more balanced economy. had nothing to do with white superiority or any such silliness, it was just a geographical happenstance.

Let's not forget that for more than 400 of 500 years of colonial history the vast majority of whites around the world lived in abject poverty.    When the sun never set on the British empire back in 1870s, the life expectancy of an industrial prole was about 25 years.  Whites were not enslaved, but millions lived and died under indentured servitude.  The average indentured servant transported to the colonies was likely to die within three to seven years.  Black slaves had a longer life expectancy than indentured servants.  Why?  The master owned the slave.  The indentured servant was just rental property!
::)

Did the indigenous Congolese get worse treatment from the Belgians?  Of course.
Did the indigenous peoples of the New World get worse treatment from the Spanish, the English, and the Dutch.  Of course.

I'm just saying so-called PC education tends to portray "whites" as a monolith of privilege above all others, which simply was not the case.  And so we see it in Switzerland today.

BTW, another canard that drives me crazy is the way people like Thomas Friedman portray India and China as reaping the bounty of capitalism.  Better than 80% of both countries continues to live in deplorable poverty.
::)

I'm just saying so-called PC education tends to portray "whites" as a monolith of privilege above all others, which simply was not the case. 
that's a good point, and i sorta fell into that with my last post, i think...

But what shocks me now is that they have 20% of foreign population,who are good enough to work but not good enough to be citizens,it reminds me of slavery.

ROFL... you obviously haven't seen how much the foreign population in Switzerland get paid.  Which is why they're in Switzerland (there aren't many other reasons to be there unless you're a skiing fanatic).  I did a few weeks work in Zurich a dozen or so years ago, and was told by one of the guys I worked with that as many as 30% of Swiss women were marrying foreigners (and to make a particularly narrow joke at the Swiss male's expense, knowing the Swiss men I was working with, I could hardly blame them); but this guy was Canadian, and he'd just married a Swiss woman.

I'm not trying to defend the Swiss' insularity, but if that statistic is anywhere near accurate, it would explain a lot about the Swiss male's attitude, wouldn't you think?


So Zimbabwe and other african nations are poor because the "white man" left?Or because the "white man",through slavery,through colonialism,simply ruined their rich natural resources,their population,by turning Africa into what was convenient for "him"? >:

Zimbabwe had many years of good living after Mugabe took power, partly because it has plentiful natural resources and while Mugabe had popular support, he didn't do too badly at running the country.  Problems came when it looked like he was going to lose an election, and he'd got too used to power by then and seriously screwed things up: the majority of farmland was owned by white farmers, who  by and large did a good job of working the land well and profitably; Mugabe in a populist move took the land away from them and gave it to his supporters & soldiers as a way of currying favour.  Now food yields are down to 1% of what they were - this doesn't have anything to do with skin colour, but has everything to do with political corruption and giving fertile lands to political apparatchiks and soldiers who don't know anything about farming the land.


i have a feeling south africa might have turned out the way it did -- with a significant white population and a more balanced economy etc. -- because where it's situated you can access shipping routes to the west but also shipping routes to asia.

Having lots of diamonds and gold helps, too... but IMO the biggest reason for South Africa's stability can be pointed at one man, who realized that bashing people because of their skin colour wasn't productive, even though he'd been at the receiving end for many years.

Just one comment to add on some of the prevailing attitudes during apartheid in South Africa: in both populations, white and black, there were people who worked hard, and the layabouts who didn't.  There was a well-drummed-in tendency in the whites to point to those lazy guys, who happened to be black and say "they're lazy because they're black" and ignore the hard-working ones.

I spent two weeks there building a prison - the majority of the workforce were black, and to start with they weren't being very productive.  Somebody pointed out to a foreman getting very worked-up about his workers' inability to do what they were asked to that they'd walked ten miles to get there in the first place, and probably hadn't had a proper breakfast beforehand.  By the time I turned up on-site, there were a dozen trailers providing food for the workers, and everybody was hard at work - although this is an isolated bit of anecdote, it does say one thing very strongly: when people are well-fed, they'll work much better than if they're malnourished.  It's another thing that is a bit of a truism irrespective of skin colour.

Let's not forget that for more than 400 of 500 years of colonial history the vast majority of whites around the world lived in abject poverty.    When the sun never set on the British empire back in 1870s, the life expectancy of an industrial prole was about 25 years.  Whites were not enslaved, but millions lived and died under indentured servitude.  The average indentured servant transported to the colonies was likely to die within three to seven years.  Black slaves had a longer life expectancy than indentured servants.  Why?  The master owned the slave.  The indentured servant was just rental property!
::)

Did the indigenous Congolese get worse treatment from the Belgians?  Of course.
Did the indigenous peoples of the New World get worse treatment from the Spanish, the English, and the Dutch.  Of course.

I'm just saying so-called PC education tends to portray "whites" as a monolith of privilege above all others, which simply was not the case.  And so we see it in Switzerland today.

BTW, another canard that drives me crazy is the way people like Thomas Friedman portray India and China as reaping the bounty of capitalism.  Better than 80% of both countries continues to live in deplorable poverty.
::)


I'm well aware that the white/black debate,is most of the times the rich/poor debate.
The other day i was watching a movie set in the17th century Europe ,and my sister was saying "Oh look at that,i would love to have lived in that era",i turned to her and was like "Yeah right,you would be the servant,married at 12,with 12 kids to raise and dying of plague before we reached 25" :o

ROFL... you obviously haven't seen how much the foreign population in Switzerland get paid.  Which is why they're in Switzerland (there aren't many other reasons to be there unless you're a skiing fanatic).  I did a few weeks work in Zurich a dozen or so years ago, and was told by one of the guys I worked with that as many as 30% of Swiss women were marrying foreigners (and to make a particularly narrow joke at the Swiss male's expense, knowing the Swiss men I was working with, I could hardly blame them); but this guy was Canadian, and he'd just married a Swiss woman.

I'm not trying to defend the Swiss' insularity, but if that statistic is anywhere near accurate, it would explain a lot about the Swiss male's attitude, wouldn't you think?


Yes they get better payed than in other countries,but the cost of life there is absurd,there's a big brazilian community(we're everywhere :D),they have two jobs,working 18 hours days,live an extremely spartan life,many go thinking they can make a fortune there and then come back,the reality is even working that much they aren't able to save any money.

And about the locals marrying foreigners…so you're saying that racism and prejudice against foreigners exists because swiss men can't find a lady? Is the right wing party in power and the people who voted for them all "jealous guys"?

Maybe you're right…A friend of mine who lived in Switzerland for more than 5 years, told me swiss men are as cold as the weather,their sex life is non existent(once a month he told me),no woman should settle with that :P

Zimbabwe had many years of good living after Mugabe took power, partly because it has plentiful natural resources and while Mugabe had popular support, he didn't do too badly at running the country.  Problems came when it looked like he was going to lose an election, and he'd got too used to power by then and seriously screwed things up: the majority of farmland was owned by white farmers, who  by and large did a good job of working the land well and profitably; Mugabe in a populist move took the land away from them and gave it to his supporters & soldiers as a way of currying favour.  Now food yields are down to 1% of what they were - this doesn't have anything to do with skin colour, but has everything to do with political corruption and giving fertile lands to political apparatchiks and soldiers who don't know anything about farming the land.
Having lots of diamonds and gold helps, too... but IMO the biggest reason for South Africa's stability can be pointed at one man, who realized that bashing people because of their skin colour wasn't productive, even though he'd been at the receiving end for many years.

Just one comment to add on some of the prevailing attitudes during apartheid in South Africa: in both populations, white and black, there were people who worked hard, and the layabouts who didn't.  There was a well-drummed-in tendency in the whites to point to those lazy guys, who happened to be black and say "they're lazy because they're black" and ignore the hard-working ones.

I spent two weeks there building a prison - the majority of the workforce were black, and to start with they weren't being very productive.  Somebody pointed out to a foreman getting very worked-up about his workers' inability to do what they were asked to that they'd walked ten miles to get there in the first place, and probably hadn't had a proper breakfast beforehand.  By the time I turned up on-site, there were a dozen trailers providing food for the workers, and everybody was hard at work - although this is an isolated bit of anecdote, it does say one thing very strongly: when people are well-fed, they'll work much better than if they're malnourished.  It's another thing that is a bit of a truism irrespective of skin colour.

I wasn't talking about Zimbabwe's particular problem,Mugabe gets away with corruption and what many see as a dictatorship because he's seen as a freedom fighter by his people,their fight for independence was hard and long,and it's difficult to accept that not all white people are colonizers,in a way African countries now try to reject everything that comes from the western world,even the good examples,because they still see them as their opressor.Racism goes both ways,for blacks if you're white "i’m not going to listen to you", "go away,this is our land now".
And the ex-colonizers keep the arrogant remarks "when we were there,it all was so much better" and "what Africa needs is...".

I don't know,i do believe the future of the world actually relies on 3rd world and developing countries,i see a wave of immigration in a few decades,everybody going south 8),i look at my own country with faith and confidence,we have to overcome a lot,but when i look at the future of America and Europe i'm a lot less optimistic,it’s like they're old and we're teenagers,they have a lot behind them but they're tired,and we still have a lot to offer,a lot to live for,does that make any sense?

I wasn't talking about Zimbabwe's particular problem...

I kind of realized that, but I guess I've heard a few commentators over the last few years talking about Zimbabwe is coming to exemplify how things can go wrong, and it seems to me that it's usually ignoring the simple "power corrupts" message.. so I ended up going on a bit more than I originally thought.


And the ex-colonizers keep the arrogant remarks "when we were there,it all was so much better"

When I was working in South Africa, one evening after a few beers one of the Afrikaaners did say something along those lines, and one of the other guys shut him straight up with "it may have been better for you..."


I don't know,i do believe the future of the world actually relies on 3rd world and developing countries,i see a wave of immigration in a few decades,everybody going south 8),i look at my own country with faith and confidence,we have to overcome a lot,but when i look at the future of America and Europe i'm a lot less optimistic,it’s like they're old and we're teenagers,they have a lot behind them but they're tired,and we still have a lot to offer,a lot to live for,does that make any sense?

It makes perfect sense - if you don't mind me asking, whereabouts are you?

I kind of realized that, but I guess I've heard a few commentators over the last few years talking about Zimbabwe is coming to exemplify how things can go wrong, and it seems to me that it's usually ignoring the simple "power corrupts" message.. so I ended up going on a bit more than I originally thought.
When I was working in South Africa, one evening after a few beers one of the Afrikaaners did say something along those lines, and one of the other guys shut him straight up with "it may have been better for you..."
It makes perfect sense - if you don't mind me asking, whereabouts are you?


Brasil :)

I'm well aware that the white/black debate,is most of the times the rich/poor debate.
The other day i was watching a movie set in the17th century Europe ,and my sister was saying "Oh look at that,i would love to have lived in that era",i turned to her and was like "Yeah right,you would be the servant,married at 12,with 12 kids to raise and dying of plague before we reached 25" :o

I am by no means dismissing the literary merits of Jane Austin, but her faddish popularity earlier this decade irritated me.  I mean, a novel/movie about the problems of the Victorian rich is a fine thing as long as you understand it was only the richest 1% of the population who had such lifestyles.  I wanted to see more Dickens in the cinema to balance Jane Austin.  Alas, when they made a new movie of "Great Expectations" (one of my favorit novels of all time) the did a modern adaptation.  Lame.  The kind of class relations Dickens wrote about don't exist nowadays. 
::)



I spent two weeks there building a prison - the majority of the workforce were black, and to start with they weren't being very productive.  Somebody pointed out to a foreman getting very worked-up about his workers' inability to do what they were asked to that they'd walked ten miles to get there in the first place, and probably hadn't had a proper breakfast beforehand.  By the time I turned up on-site, there were a dozen trailers providing food for the workers, and everybody was hard at work - although this is an isolated bit of anecdote, it does say one thing very strongly: when people are well-fed, they'll work much better than if they're malnourished.  It's another thing that is a bit of a truism irrespective of skin colour.



Building a prison in Zimbabwe sounds like a grim adventure!

So, people aren't terribly productive when they're always hungry and tired.  Eureka! The white man's burden just got a little lighter!
:D

Building a prison in Zimbabwe sounds like a grim adventure!

So, people aren't terribly productive when they're always hungry and tired.  Eureka! The white man's burden just got a little lighter!
:D

The prison was in South Africa - one fairly scary statistic (especially with the brouhaha over here about prison overcrowding) was that the SA prison system at the time had a capacity of circa 110,000 and nearly 180,000 prisoners needing housing.  They were building two prisons, both very large (~3000 beds) which didn't even cope with 10% of the deficit.

The prison was in South Africa - one fairly scary statistic (especially with the brouhaha over here about prison overcrowding) was that the SA prison system at the time had a capacity of circa 110,000 and nearly 180,000 prisoners needing housing.  They were building two prisons, both very large (~3000 beds) which didn't even cope with 10% of the deficit.


I wonder what the racial ratio in those prisons is/was.

Did the indigenous peoples of the New World get worse treatment from the Spanish, the English, and the Dutch.  Of course.


N'oublie pas les français! They have their share of blood on their hands as well here in Amérique du Nord. Although many of their descendants here like to pretend that it was just the English who did terrible things in the name of God, King and Country. 

Honestly, which Swiss people are we talking about here, because they aren't all the same? Are we talking about the German-Swiss, French-Swiss, Italian-Swiss? Each of these ethno-linguistic groups has it's own culture and language, so they really can't all be generalised so easily.

I wonder what the racial ratio in those prisons is/was.

When I was there, they hadn't got all the doors on...

Honestly, which Swiss people are we talking about here, because they aren't all the same? Are we talking about the German-Swiss, French-Swiss, Italian-Swiss? Each of these ethno-linguistic groups has it's own culture and language, so they really can't all be generalised so easily.


Let me think...all of them?

Because that is even more bizarre! If they exist successfully as a nation with all that diversity,i would expect them to be more tolerant to immigrants that want to live and work there.

When I was there, they hadn't got all the doors on...


Aw, you don't need no doors.  What you need is sharpshooters.  Any old boy who gets the rabbit in his blood gets two in the hat!

Aw, you don't need no doors.  What you need is sharpshooters.  Any old boy who gets the rabbit in his blood gets two in the hat!

With 3,000 inmates?  You wouldn't need sharpshooters so much as machine guns (RPGs, etc.)

With 3,000 inmates?  You wouldn't need sharpshooters so much as machine guns (RPGs, etc.)

Whatever it takes; remember, a bullet is cheaper than a meal!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/xyxgun.gif

The Swiss People's Party, which is the party proposing these policies, has just done phenomenally well in the Swiss parliamentary elections.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/071021/w1021100A.html

The Swiss People's Party, which is the party proposing these policies, has just done phenomenally well in the Swiss parliamentary elections.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/071021/w1021100A.html


8-P

Could someone please explain to me what exactly this Swiss party stands for in terms of immigration policy?

As far as I can tell, they want to kick out people who break the law that aren't yet citizens.  If that's true, what's the problem?

As far as I can tell, they want to kick out people who break the law that aren't yet citizens.  If that's true, what's the problem?


A misplaced cultural reference.

The phrase "black sheep of the family" is what's being referred to in the poster. It's got nothing to do with race.  It's got to do with "people who don't live up to the standards of the socially dominant group".  Cue John Anderson, "Black Sheep of the Family", which is about as down-home, pickup-truck, wifebeater-T-shirt (heh, now there's a non-PC cultural reference unique to the American South!), dirt-track-racin' redneck as it gets, y'all.

"My daddy, he was a brakeman on a highball traveling train,
Mama, she raised four little children, and the family had a good name,
And papa and mama wanted all for us they never had,
Big brother, little brother, sister too, none of them turned out half bad,
Cept meeeeee--- I'm the black sheep of the family...

Big brother went to college and became a doctor man,
I guess he makes about a million dollars a year off the folks on insurance plan,
He's got a big long Mercedes Benz and a house overlooking the town,
He sits in his Jacuzzi and he watches the sun go down,
And he feels real sorry for meeeee --- I'm the black sheep of the family,

Yeah I drive me a big ol' semi truck, I'm makin' payments on a two room shack,
My wife she waits on tables, and at night she rubs my back,
And I tell her what my papa said to my mama, when he got off a highball train,
Wake me up early, be good to my dogs, and teach my children to pray.

Little sister married a banker, yeah, he owns a country club,
He bought her a big ol' racing horse, and a funny lookin' little dog.
He buys her big rings and diamonds, and a brand new Japanese yacht,
They like to get together and talk about all the things they've got,
But they never mention meeeeee - I'm the black sheep of the family...
  - John Anderson, Black Sheep

Cut and paste that Swiss poster into American culture, and you'll have everyone (myself included) getting the reference, but simultaneously rolling their eyes wondering what the hell the campaign manager was thinking.  Didn't the focus groups see the other interpretation?  In America, they would have -- in Switzerland, they didn't.  The focus groups were in Switzerland, which is something like 99% "white", and people there won't see anything other than the intended literary reference -- because the closest thing there is to "race" or "ethnicity" in Switzerland are probably the Flemish-speakers, the French-speakers, the Swiss-speakers, and the German-speakers.  (And the Big Three religions.)

For a better example of this phenomenon, I once had to explain to someone that no, the local Buddhist temple wasn't a Neo-Nazi front group. The Buddhists had been using the friggin' thing for centuries before some whacked-out German corporal inscribed it backwards onto his flag.  Took way the hell longer than it should have.

...because the closest thing there is to "race" or "ethnicity" in Switzerland are probably the Flemish-speakers, the French-speakers, the Swiss-speakers, and the German-speakers. 


As far as I know, Flemish is not widely spoken in Switzerland (except perhaps by those few Swiss converts hailing originally from Flanders). The four languages of Switzerland are Swiss-German, French, Italian, and Romansh.

And I designate it as Swiss-German because anyone who has studied Standard German only to hear a Swiss speak it knows what I'm talking about. It's a beautiful dialect, but very very different from the language spoken in Germany.

As far as I know, Flemish is not widely spoken in Switzerland (except perhaps by those few Swiss converts hailing originally from Flanders). The four languages of Switzerland are Swiss-German, French, Italian, and Romansh.


My bad on the Flemish-for-Italian mistake.  I'd just had a Delirium Tremens, and while it's a fine Belgian beer, it's several hundred miles north of Switzerland :)