In a surprising poll, 1 in 3 said that they would refuse to evacuate from a major hurricane.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/24/AR2007072400010.html

This is actually a rehash of a poll taken last year, where 1/4 of responders stated that they would not evacuate.  They did a new survey, and modified the criteria from the 2006 survey to get the new results.  Most people gave the typical reasons for refusing to evacuate.  Among them are fiath in rescue workers, belief that their home is safe, and a belief that they are prepared for any eventuality.  Also listed was the bother of having to put up with evacuation centers and evacuation traffic.

Even more disturbing was the results in the New Orleans area.  In a town that was so recently devistated, 60% do not know where their nearst evacuation center is (compared to 40% in other areas).

I live about 60 miles from the Gulf, along a major hurricane route.  I know where 3 different evacuation centers are, and am probably much better prepared then 90% of other people.  But I would still evacuate in a moment if given notice, and know exactly where to go.  I am still amazed that 1/3 of people would choose to remain at home, even knowing how bad it can be.

And I bet that within 3 years, similar polls will find that 2/3 of people will choose to remain at home.  Our memory for disasters is amazingly short.

It's just retarded. We've all seen the force that nature can strike with, if I lived in a Hurricane belt I'd be prepared to leave on a moments notice. As it is, living in a tornado and earthquake hot spot I have a torch and several bottles of water down in the basement, I also know the best places to go and assuming the bridges over the Missouri river (not Mississippi, they'd be gone) were still standing I'd head West, away from the main epicenter.

It's just retarded. We've all seen the force that nature can strike with, if I lived in a Hurricane belt I'd be prepared to leave on a moments notice. As it is, living in a tornado and earthquake hot spot I have a torch and several bottles of water down in the basement, I also know the best places to go and assuming the bridges over the Missouri river (not Mississippi, they'd be gone) were still standing I'd head West, away from the main epicenter.


Most people really do not know how to survive.  And when disaster strikes, it bites them hard.

2 weeks ago, I went through and updated my disaster kit.  I rotated my food supplies, cleaned and sterilized my water containers, and rotated my medications.  Everything from last year came out and went on my shelf, and I replaced it with stuff bought just for my kit.  I also expanded it, adding a second backpack containing a 1 gallon collapsable water jug, more clothes, and a 4 pack of Ensure.  This is addition to the supplies that I keep in my car, including 2 cases of soda, a bag of sunflower seads, flares, and a 2.5 gallon gas can.

During this time of year, I never let my car get below 3/4 tank of gas.  In this way, with 15 minutes warning I can drive home, throw my packs into the trunk, and drive up to 200 miles inland without having to stop.  I also have both a road atlas and my laptop with GPS inside my car at all times.  I am prepared for anything from a hurricane to a major earthquake.  About the only thing that I am probably not prepared for is a 6 mile asteroid or a supervolcano.  And nothing I can do would ever prepare me for an event like that.

Having supplies is always a good thing.  That is one reason why when events like this happen, Mormons are better prepared than anybody else in the nation.  But remember to rotate your supplies regularly.  Having food and water does you no good if they are 2 years beyond the end of their shelf life.

Heh.  If I knew a tornado or a hurricane or a tidal wave or an earthquake were coming at me with enough warning, I'd be GTFO :P

Heh.  If I knew a tornado or a hurricane or a tidal wave or an earthquake were coming at me with enough warning, I'd be GTFO :P


Well, earthquakes give you no warning at all.  You are suddenly just being thrown all over the place.

Tsunamis may give you some warning, depending on how far away you are.  But at the most, you will only have a few hours warning.

Tornados can give you warning, but even that may not do you any good.  Where I live we are under "tornado watch" (potential tornados) and "tornado warning" (tornado spotted) probably 100+ times a year.  But that did no good when Enterprise High got smacked earlier in the year.

Hurricanes are really the only one that gives you plenty of warning most of the time.  But most people tend to ignore them.  And it does not matter how many times they get hit, they continue to ignore the warnings.  A lot of people simply thing they are immune to things like that, and that devistation and death is something that happens to other people.

Maybe 1 in 3 people just aren't terribly bright.  They're either in denial about the danger or overconfident in their ability to handle the danger. 

Some people refuse to get out the way of slow-moving lava floes until it's too late.  How dumb can you get?

I rememember, however, back in the terrible heatwave of 1995 a lot of people died of heat exhaustion.  Most of these people were elderly, and it was most prevalent in Chicago.  First I was think, "What are those old folks, crazy or something?  It must be 120 degrees in some of those buildings!"  The fact that so many elderly people were living in apartments with no air conditioning indicates rampant poverty.  Rescue operations did try to get as many vulnerable people into air conditioned community centers, but some just would not go.  Looters.  They were terrified of looters.  Everything they had in the world was in those crampt apartments.

Some of this might have been at play in Katrina. 

The news media likes to make every weather event sound like a crisis.  It's crying wolf.  A lot of folks figure they've ridden out five hurricanes and they can do it again.  Those jackasses on TV just want ratings.  True.  But every decade you get a hurricane like Andrew or Katrina, and by the time the stubborn folks realize they can't ride out the storm, it's too late.

If you choose to get out should be an individuals choice.  Just get the kids and elderly family members out if you're staying.  I was a little upset when Rick Santurem suggested prosecuting people who wanted to stay during Katerina.

I'd split, but I live in earthquake country and the first thing some outside of it would say, "Why would you live there?" So it's a double-edged sword.

If you choose to get out should be an individuals choice.  Just get the kids and elderly family members out if you're staying.  I was a little upset when Rick Santurem suggested prosecuting people who wanted to stay during Katerina.


If you choose to stay during an impending disaster then you forfeit your right to b*tch when they don't send in helicopters to save you and your pets.  Can't have it both ways.

I would not *prosecute* people who did not evacuate and had the ability to.  I'd just send them to the back of the line when it came to aid.

Most people really do not know how to survive.  And when disaster strikes, it bites them hard.

2 weeks ago, I went through and updated my disaster kit.  I rotated my food supplies, cleaned and sterilized my water containers, and rotated my medications.  Everything from last year came out and went on my shelf, and I replaced it with stuff bought just for my kit.  I also expanded it, adding a second backpack containing a 1 gallon collapsable water jug, more clothes, and a 4 pack of Ensure.  This is addition to the supplies that I keep in my car, including 2 cases of soda, a bag of sunflower seads, flares, and a 2.5 gallon gas can.

During this time of year, I never let my car get below 3/4 tank of gas.  In this way, with 15 minutes warning I can drive home, throw my packs into the trunk, and drive up to 200 miles inland without having to stop.  I also have both a road atlas and my laptop with GPS inside my car at all times.  I am prepared for anything from a hurricane to a major earthquake.  About the only thing that I am probably not prepared for is a 6 mile asteroid or a supervolcano.  And nothing I can do would ever prepare me for an event like that.

Having supplies is always a good thing.  That is one reason why when events like this happen, Mormons are better prepared than anybody else in the nation.  But remember to rotate your supplies regularly.  Having food and water does you no good if they are 2 years beyond the end of their shelf life.


And make sure that you have at least five boxes of FRESH ammo.

If you choose to stay during an impending disaster then you forfeit your right to b*tch when they don't send in helicopters to save you and your pets.  Can't have it both ways.

I would not *prosecute* people who did not evacuate and had the ability to.  I'd just send them to the back of the line when it came to aid.


Amen to that, with the exception of the elderly who need assistance to evacuate.

No quarter given to the ones who choose to stay there and ride it out.............regardless of the excuses afterward....

Loss of your possessions should take a back seat to your life....

And make sure that you have at least five boxes of FRESH ammo.


Fresh ammo is right up there with water and cash in my book...

If you choose to stay during an impending disaster then you forfeit your right to b*tch when they don't send in helicopters to save you and your pets.  Can't have it both ways.

I would not *prosecute* people who did not evacuate and had the ability to.  I'd just send them to the back of the line when it came to aid.

The "evacuation" plan in New Orleans was:
Jump in your car and drive like hell!
Even if you have a car, and many poorer N.O. residents did not, that's not an evacuation plan, that's a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, if you don't have a car, you're in one of two categories in Dittoheadland.
1. A loser without any money.
2. An environmental whacko commie beatnik traitor to the American way of life.
In either case, you deserve to drown!
:D


If you choose to get out should be an individuals choice.  Just get the kids and elderly family members out if you're staying.  I was a little upset when Rick Santurem suggested prosecuting people who wanted to stay during Katerina.

And then sentencing them to death.  And then mowing them down with machine guns at sunrise!
Santorum needs group therapy with Nurse Ratched!
:P

Fresh ammo is right up there with water and cash in my book...


The nice version:
Keep a handy supply of the three precious metals:  gold, silver, and lead.  The first two make lousy bullets.

The not-so-nice version:
Lead is the most precious metal on earth, because it can be exchanged for water, food, shelter, or gold, especially with someone who doesn't have any lead.

The nice version:
Keep a handy supply of the three precious metals:  gold, silver, and lead.  The first two make lousy bullets.

The not-so-nice version:
Lead is the most precious metal on earth, because it can be exchanged for water, food, shelter, or gold, especially with someone who doesn't have any lead.


Major T. J. "King" Kong: Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff.

The "evacuation" plan in New Orleans was:
Jump in your car and drive like hell!
Even if you have a car, and many poorer N.O. residents did not, that's not an evacuation plan, that's a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, if you don't have a car, you're in one of two categories in Dittoheadland.


Well, "drive like hell" is really the evacuation plan for any city.  NO was not unusual in that respect.  That is the same plan that Miami, Panama City, Galveston, and Dothan have.  And is there really any other kind of plan?  After all, if you have a choice between driving out or taking a bus, who is going to leave their car behind?

And the mistaken belief that "the poor did not have cars" is simply BS.  Here is something I just found.  It is a breakdown of car ownership in New Orleans:

no vehicle: 10,314
1 vehicle: 34,945
2 vehicles: 32,694
3 vehicles: 7,622
4 vehicles: 1,571
5 or more vehicles: 389

http://www.city-data.com/housing/houses-New-Orleans-Louisiana.html

In reality, the majority of households have 2 or more vehicles.  Yet less then 20% evacuated the city.  And don't forget that 2 special trains sent to NO for the purpose of evacuation left almost empty.  It is not that they could not get out, it is simply that they did not want to get out.  Rich and poor, those that stayed simply thought they could "ride it out".  I am sure that if the same poll had been taken in 2005, 60-75% would have stated they would remain right where they are.

And this is nothing unusual.  When Floyd chewed up the East coast several years ago, most people stayed at home.  The History Channel did a survey of New York City residents about evacuation in the event of an imminant hurricane, and less then 15% said they would evacuate.


I'd split, but I live in earthquake country and the first thing some outside of it would say, "Why would you live there?" So it's a double-edged sword.


I have lived most of my life in California, and been through 4 major earthquakes.  And to this day, they do not bother me.  Because for all of the devistation, the death tolls are really low.  A moderate hurricane often has double the death rate of a 6.5 magnitude earthquake.

However, hurricanes still scare the crap outta me.  If I know one is comming near me, I normally get plastered.  I live in the path of the original planned landing zone for Katrina, and I was ready to go.  Once it turned west, I basically drank myself into a stupor.  I live about 300 miles from NO, and we still had some massive damage in our area.  Most people simply have no idea how devistating things like this are.

I have already listed my "survival kit" for a major disaster.  My "survival kit" for a near miss is this:  a bottle of Scotch.  It is the only way to keep me sane during the 50+ MPH winds and tornados.  And yes, most people do not realize how many people are killed during a hurricane by tornados.  177 of them touched down within 100 miles of the coast when Ivan struck in 2004.  Three of them struck within 5 miles of my house at the time.  But I was already gone, I left when the first ones started touching down.  One of them even heavily damaged a local federal prison.  The same tornado destroyed a large office building (it was the world help desk for AT&T Internet at the time).

Here is some footage to show how bad those were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkNajhyOypM

If you look when the map first comes up, I live at the top of the screen of the weather map.  It is 60 miles inland, but it still devistated our area.  I was actually watching this broadcast when it happened, and it was right after this that I left home.  I lived in a mobile home park at the time, but less then 1/10 of the park evacuated, even though we had Sheriff's driving up and down the street asking everybody to go to a shelter.

And this newspaper article from 2004 helps explain why so many refused to evacuate.  It seems that more people died in evacuating from NO then died in the hurricane.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/09/16/newhurricaneivan040916.html

How are we defining "vehicle," and what percentage of said "vehicles" operational?
:P

And make sure that you have at least five boxes of FRESH ammo.


I keep a 16 inch hunting knife in with my food and water - I don't own a gun so that's out, but faced with a knife as long as their arm, a lot of people might s**t it  ;D, I also have (much like Mushroom) a gas can in my trunk, along with a few other things, blanket, water.. and socks. Seriously, keep socks. Feet getting wet is one of the worst and most demoralizing things, keep extra socks!

I keep a 16 inch hunting knife in with my food and water - I don't own a gun so that's out, but faced with a knife as long as their arm, a lot of people might s**t it  ;D, I also have (much like Mushroom) a gas can in my trunk, along with a few other things, blanket, water.. and socks. Seriously, keep socks. Feet getting wet is one of the worst and most demoralizing things, keep extra socks!

You ain't jokin' about the socks.  I have some miserable New Hampshire childhood memories of trudging through the snow with my socks soaking wet and my feet going numb.  No matter how cold it gets, a swamp can always sink you shin deep, and you might have waterproof L.L. Beans, but that's moot when icy swamp water seeps in from the top.  It's three miles to home, and you'd go down on a lawman for a pair of dry socks!  Even more agony comes when you finally get home where it's warm and dry and your blood vessels start expanding like crazy and it feels like your feet are in flames! 
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/firedevil.gif

How are we defining "vehicle," and what percentage of said "vehicles" operational?
:P


Only take a couple of those babies out on Rt 128 to end any hope of evacuation of the whole of metropolitan Boston

You ain't jokin' about the socks.  I have some miserable New Hampshire childhood memories of trudging through the snow with my socks soaking wet and my feet going numb.  No matter how cold it gets, a swamp can always sink you shin deep, and you might have waterproof L.L. Beans, but that's moot when icy swamp water seeps in from the top.  It's three miles to home, and you'd go down on a lawman for a pair of dry socks!  Even more agony comes when you finally get home where it's warm and dry and your blood vessels start expanding like crazy and it feels like your feet are in flames! 
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/firedevil.gif


Right. Socks - Saving Lives since... ... sock.. invention times.

1/3 of people are simply idiots.  Let's see.....I live below sea level, there's a Cat 5 hurricane coming, I think I'll stay here................NOT!!!

1/3 of people are simply idiots.  Let's see.....I live below sea level, there's a Cat 5 hurricane coming, I think I'll stay here................NOT!!!

Which suits me just fine, with any luck a good chunk of them are eliminated from the gene pool.

'Mother Nature - Preserving Intelligence and Punishing stupidity since 3,000,000,000 B.C."

Which suits me just fine, with any luck a good chunk of them are eliminated from the gene pool.

'Mother Nature - Preserving Intelligence and Punishing stupidity since 3,000,000,000 B.C."


Yes...like Mama K said..we live below sea level, there's a big one coming....seems like some of the remaining idiots would at least carry a saw or an axe up to the attic cause they're sure as hell going to need it...

Only take a couple of those babies out on Rt 128 to end any hope of evacuation of the whole of metropolitan Boston

128 is a lost cause every afternoon by 4:30!  In a state of "emergency," fah-get about it!  You remember the Blizzard of '78.  It took a day and a half to get stranded commuters off the highway (mind you, their cars stayed put).
::)

Anyway, if your car is under eight feet of water, it's useless to you and so is all that "survival kit" stuff you stowed away in the trunk!


My guess is most cities won't think about an evacuation plan until a disaster hits.  Better to have an evacuation plan and not need it than need an evacuation plan and not have it!

One of the arguments against the Seabrook nuke plant back in the '70s was lack of a realistic evacuation plan.  The roads along the seacoast from southeast Maine to the north shore of Massachusetts are just a hodgepodge of paved over cowpaths.  Anybody whose tried to get home from the beach on a sweltering summer afternoon knows what that's like!

I think a lot of people refuse to leave because their homes are so special to them,i'm not even talking about material possessions,it's just really hard for some to abandon the place they lived all their lives,where their family started,they feel like they're letting go of all they've known,abandoning their house must make them feel so lost. Of course it's not wise,it's dangerous and it can cost them their lives,but how you going to make them see that,before it happens? "Leaving all behind","never look back" works when you're young,healthy and still full of hopes,when you're not i believe things are not as clear.

I think a lot of people refuse to leave because their homes are so special to them,i'm not even talking about material possessions,it's just really hard for some to abandon the place they lived all their lives,where their family started,they feel like they're letting go of all they've known,abandoning their house must make them feel so lost. Of course it's not wise,it's dangerous and it can cost them their lives,but how you going to make them see that,before it happens? "Leaving all behind","never look back" works when you're young,healthy and still full of hopes,when you're not i believe things are not as clear.

The same with people who refused to leave without their pets.  When you've lived with that old hound dog for 15 years, you can't just leave him for dead!  I don't agree with the reasoning if it means you're both going to die, but I can certainly understand it.

Anyway, if your car is under eight feet of water, it's useless to you and so is all that "survival kit" stuff you stowed away in the trunk!


My guess is most cities won't think about an evacuation plan until a disaster hits.  Better to have an evacuation plan and not need it than need an evacuation plan and not have it!




Thats why in the event of a hurricane and forces of nature that give advance warnings, you should leave before the water is lapping at your top step.

Evacuation plans are great, as long as the people in charge know how to implement them and know where they are located.  Wasn't it New Orleans that had just in the months previous to Katrina dusted off the old "plan" and ran a simulation for a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane coming through??  I'm pretty sure it was, and they even IIRC had time to review what they did wrong to be better prepared and when the crap hit the fan(even with advance notice) failed to remember any of the lessons learned from the drill....

Guess we're lucky up this way, all we get is major snowfall accumulation, the occasional ice storm (last one took out power in some areas for 28 days) and the "occasional" tornado (but not the big Midwest killers) so we don't have to evacuate.  However, most people up this way have pantries filled with canned goods and such, have a kerosun heater or equivalent handy, with a good supply of fuel...many have generators as well, along with coleman lanterns...and most have propane or natural gas cook stoves.

The emergency shelters are always the local fire departments and a few civic association buildings in Watertown, and all along the route 81 corridor from Syracuse to Watertown, the local towns are are right alongside the highway, all the towns have volunteer fire departments that open on a moments notice in the event of a bad storm.

Most of the towns up this way have evacuation plans for senior citizens, but more often than not the seniors are as equally prepared and only want somebody to check in on them from time to time during such an event, and only if phone services are interrupted.  I have my next door neighbors house hooked up so I can power his place off my generator if the need arises.

My survival kit is more utilitarian than most:

A 10 kw generator, topped off with stabilized gasoline for storage, test run once a month under load.  15 gallons of fresh gasoline rotated on a monthly basis.

2 gas chain saws, with 5 gallons of gas/oil mix and 5 gallons of bar oil.

3 coleman lanterns (loaned out more than used because of the generator) spare mantles and 3 gallons of coleman fuel.

An upright freezer, stocked with meat and fish. 

A walk in pantry, nothing but canned and dry goods.

My stove is propane, my boiler is oil and I have a domestic coil for hot water.

a 4000gph trash pump in case of severe basement flooding to keep the boiler operational.

Lots of other stuff as well, including a nifty little cut off extension cord that I can piggy back onto a persons furnace or boiler and feed the heating system only if the need arises.......

The same with people who refused to leave without their pets.  When you've lived with that old hound dog for 15 years, you can't just leave him for dead!  I don't agree with the reasoning if it means you're both going to die, but I can certainly understand it.


I can't understand that, unless I suppose you had a very old pet. My dogs would be just fine with me, they can walk, run, swim, climb just as good as I can.. and if they couldn't, I could carry them no problem. But yeah, I'd make sure the dogs were safe, wouldn't leave them behind, ever!

I can't understand that, unless I suppose you had a very old pet. My dogs would be just fine with me, they can walk, run, swim, climb just as good as I can.. and if they couldn't, I could carry them no problem. But yeah, I'd make sure the dogs were safe, wouldn't leave them behind, ever!

I think I used a dog as the example because I'm a dog person.  I grew up with dogs and had close emotional bonds with them.  We had cats too, and I love cats, but to me they're just not the same as dogs.

But you make a good point.  Dogs are tough.  They have excellent survival instincts and it's amazing what long distances they can travel to find their way back to you.

I think I used a dog as the example because I'm a dog person.  I grew up with dogs and had close emotional bonds with them.  We had cats too, and I love cats, but to me they're just not the same as dogs.

But you make a good point.  Dogs are tough.  They have excellent survival instincts and it's amazing what long distances they can travel to find their way back to you.


Right. Like I say, I know mine would be fine, even if we were separated, they'd figure it out. At one time or another all of them have got loose and they've all come home before being caught by anybody.  ;D

Well, "drive like hell" is really the evacuation plan for any city.  NO was not unusual in that respect.  That is the same plan that Miami, Panama City, Galveston, and Dothan have.  And is there really any other kind of plan?


For a hurricane, I'm with you.  Plenty of warning, plenty of time to lock up and drive out before the teeming masses block the highways (witness Rita - if the hurricane had hit dead on, we'd have seen thousands washed off the roads to their doom), and if it's a false alarm, big deal, you drive back home after a fun little road trip.

For an earthquake or "unconventional" situation, you don't have that sort of warning.  Even if the highways aren't destroyed outright by an earthquake, either event results in highways jammed solid within a minutes of either event.  Running out of gas and baking in the hot sun for a day isn't a bad outcome in an earthquake, but it's not exactly a good outcome either, and it's a fatal outcome if you're downwind of the fallout plume of a groundburst.  For these two scenarios, you're almost certainly best off sheltering in place.  Better shelter and more food/water at home in both cases, and infinitely more shielding in the latter case. 

1/3 of people are simply idiots.  Let's see.....I live below sea level, there's a Cat 5 hurricane coming, I think I'll stay here................NOT!!!


Personally, I think that anybody that lives near the coast in an area below sea level is an idiot to begin with.  I still believe that 80% of NO should be abandoned, and rebuilt somewhere else.  It is stimply foolish to invest so much money on an area that is sinking more and more every year.  They money can be spent much better somewhere else.

Personally, I think that anybody that lives near the coast in an area below sea level is an idiot to begin with. 

Like those Cajun fishermen...trying to make a living and feed their families! What morons!
:D

Anyway, if your car is under eight feet of water, it's useless to you and so is all that "survival kit" stuff you stowed away in the trunk!


If your car is under 8' of water, you waited way to long to evacuate.

The problem is that people either wait way to long to evacuate, or they do not even bother to evacuate.  Instead of useing common sense, they either think they can "wait it out", or wait until the last possible minute to leave.

I am in my 40's, and for over 40 years I have seen disaster after disaster where the people knew it was comming, and either waited until the last minute, or did not even try to leave.  Every year on the West Coast there are a handfull of people that die in wildfires.  They either try to save their homes themselves, or they wait until the last minute to evacuate and get caught.

Hurricanes are perfect examples of this.  Every single time one happens, we see clips of the survivors.  I still can't understand why the idiots don't evacuate in a timely manner.

The idea of keeping the kit in your car is so that you can evacuate in a moments notice.  No need to "Run Home" to get a few things, just leave from wherever you are at.  And it is good for many things.  A well stocked kit could have helped a lot of people during the recent bridge collapse.  Not only with first aid kits and blankets, but water and tools to help get people out of damaged vehicles.


Like those Cajun fishermen...trying to make a living and feed their families! What morons!
:D


Well, I can't think of very many Cajun Fishermen living in NO.  Most of them live in the boonies, and live in buildings that can either handle the problem, or are so cheap that they can be easily replaced.

If your car is under 8' of water, you waited way to long to evacuate.

The problem is that people either wait way to long to evacuate, or they do not even bother to evacuate.  Instead of useing common sense, they either think they can "wait it out", or wait until the last possible minute to leave.

I am in my 40's, and for over 40 years I have seen disaster after disaster where the people knew it was comming, and either waited until the last minute, or did not even try to leave.  Every year on the West Coast there are a handfull of people that die in wildfires.  They either try to save their homes themselves, or they wait until the last minute to evacuate and get caught.
"The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley."
--Robert Burns

"You can sum up the duties of the vice president into just one word: Be prepared"
--Dan Quayle

All I'm saying is you can do everything in your power to be prepared, you can plan for all contingencies you can think of, you plot out all the escape routes you want, BUT a catastrophe can still take you by surprise and surprisingly easily.  There is a tendancy among certain people to blame the less fortunate for their plight and pat themselves on the back for their own self-reliance and ingenuity.  I say don't do it, it's bad karma. 



Well, I can't think of very many Cajun Fishermen living in NO.  Most of them live in the boonies, and live in buildings that can either handle the problem, or are so cheap that they can be easily replaced.

And what Katrina did to the Ragged Sole of the Louisiana boot was devastation of biblical proportions.

"
All I'm saying is you can do everything in your power to be prepared, you can plan for all contingencies you can think of, you plot out all the escape routes you want, BUT a catastrophe can still take you by surprise and surprisingly easily.  There is a tendancy among certain people to blame the less fortunate for their plight and pat themselves on the back for their own self-reliance and ingenuity.  I say don't do it, it's bad karma. 

And what Katrina did to the Ragged Sole of the Louisiana boot was devastation of biblical proportions.


Absolutely correct, in certain circumstances.  Earthquakes are a great example, they strike without warning.  Tornadoes form "sort of" quickly, at least in terms of evacuating a few thousand people from one area is concerned.

Hurricanes however form very slowly, and advance warning is given, just as Katrina did.  I seem to remember it took something like 4 days for it to finally turn and reach N.O.??  These people had time to get  moving, however they chose not to.  With the exception of the infirm(mentally or physically) anybody that stayed to ride this one out, full well knowing how big it was, was pretty much stupid.

For those that evacuated and left their infirm next door neighbors to fend for themselves, perhaps one day the shoe will be on the other foot and they'll get a similar treatment.

Bad Karma is laughing at your next door neighbor as he's/they're walking to evacuate to avoid a natural disaster while you drive away in your big motor home with plenty of room and not offering a ride, Max.

Good karma is being as prepared as possible for any contingencies that may arise.

This theory some people have that if not everybody can be prepared, then nobody should be prepared is the most asinine FUBAR'D logic around today.  Self reliant people need to apologize for their preparedness??  Please.....

How ingenious is it to have an emergency kit ready?  Because I'm prepared, does that mean a bad karma cloud hangs over my head??

Behind all this people tend to forget that it wasn't the actual Hurrincane that devastated New Orleans.  It was the failure of the levees well after the hurricane was over. It happened much like the collapse of the bridge in Minneapolis, but I know I won't see anyone blaming the people on the bridge for using it.

Absolutely correct, in certain circumstances.  Earthquakes are a great example, they strike without warning.  Tornadoes form "sort of" quickly, at least in terms of evacuating a few thousand people from one area is concerned.

Hurricanes however form very slowly, and advance warning is given, just as Katrina did.  I seem to remember it took something like 4 days for it to finally turn and reach N.O.??  These people had time to get  moving, however they chose not to.  With the exception of the infirm(mentally or physically) anybody that stayed to ride this one out, full well knowing how big it was, was pretty much stupid.

For those that evacuated and left their infirm next door neighbors to fend for themselves, perhaps one day the shoe will be on the other foot and they'll get a similar treatment.

Bad Karma is laughing at your next door neighbor as he's/they're walking to evacuate to avoid a natural disaster while you drive away in your big motor home with plenty of room and not offering a ride, Max.

Good karma is being as prepared as possible for any contingencies that may arise.

This theory some people have that if not everybody can be prepared, then nobody should be prepared is the most asinine FUBAR'D logic around today.  Self reliant people need to apologize for their preparedness??  Please.....

How ingenious is it to have an emergency kit ready?  Because I'm prepared, does that mean a bad karma cloud hangs over my head??

That's not what I said. Talk about "FUBAR'D logic."  Where did I say that one should not try to be prepared?  You're reading what you want me to have said--not what I said--because it's easier to answer that way.
::)

If you choose to get out should be an individuals choice.  Just get the kids and elderly family members out if you're staying.  I was a little upset when Rick Santurem suggested prosecuting people who wanted to stay during Katerina.
Well,it's a fact not all buildings fare equally in a major storm.Sometimes it's because of how well they're built.People figure,why let bums and looters and other people who have nothing to lose  have free reign.I mean,it's amazing,no matter how much damage there is,people still find something to steal.

I'll bet that quite a few of those people who refused to leave, started to "evacuate" when they saw the water rising so fast.  ;)

And when they did try to make it to terra firma, the redneck cops pointed guns at them and warned, "Better git back to where you belongs, boy!"
::)

I'll bet that quite a few of those people who refused to leave, started to "evacuate" when they saw the water rising so fast.  ;)
So that explains the "raw sewage" in the water :D

Behind all this people tend to forget that it wasn't the actual Hurrincane that devastated New Orleans.  It was the failure of the levees well after the hurricane was over. It happened much like the collapse of the bridge in Minneapolis, but I know I won't see anyone blaming the people on the bridge for using it.
Of course they won't....the difference being that the bridge collapse gave no prior warning.  Sorry, but I have no patience for people who use the "I didn't know" excuse when it comes to the pros/cons of their surroundings.  The levees were only built to withstand a Category 3 hurricane and all indications were that Katrina was going to be much more powerful than that.  If you choose to live in an area below sea-level, surrounded by levees, you darned well better know how strong those levees are.  In my community, there was a subdivision built on a "former" flood plain and when the land flooded, people were complaining that they weren't told about it.  However, when they actually looked at their insurance policies and closing documents, they realized that they had been paying additional premiums and PMI for living in a "former" flood plain.

So that explains the "raw sewage" in the water :D
;D ;D

Of course they won't....the difference being that the bridge collapse gave no prior warning.  Sorry, but I have no patience for people who use the "I didn't know" excuse when it comes to the pros/cons of their surroundings.  The levees were only built to withstand a Category 3 hurricane and all indications were that Katrina was going to be much more powerful than that.  If you choose to live in an area below sea-level, surrounded by levees, you darned well better know how strong those levees are.  In my community, there was a subdivision built on a "former" flood plain and when the land flooded, people were complaining that they weren't told about it.  However, when they actually looked at their insurance policies and closing documents, they realized that they had been paying additional premiums and PMI for living in a "former" flood plain.

You don't have to "buy" this.  The truth is not for sale.

A lot of the people who lost everything and died after Katrina were citizens too poor to afford insurance and didn't own their dwellings.  There was little if any "choice" for residents of the lower ninth and the housing projects.  The N.O. we always saw in the media turned out not to be the N.O. in which most people lived.  It is a poor Southern city. 

The victims of Katrina would not have to make "excuses" in a humane country. 

The first thing the right-wing dominated media did was blame the liberals and the blacks.  That's what they always do.  Intelligent discussion of the failure of civil engineering and the racism at the heart of it all was marginalized to "whacko" status. 

When your must concern yourself with day-to-day survival, as is the case with the impoverished people of our inner cities, you do not have the time to scrutinize civil defense structures and lobby city hall for improvements.  Come on!  That is patently absurd!
>:(

When your must concern yourself with day-to-day survival, as is the case with the impoverished people of our inner cities, you do not have the time to scrutinize civil defense structures and lobby city hall for improvements.  Come on!  That is patently absurd!
>:(


Being poor is an excuse for not running away from a hurricane?  ???

Being poor is an excuse for not running away from a hurricane?  ???


Hey, I don't deal in "excuses," I deal in "reasons."  And you know you are being silly here.
::)

Hey, I don't deal in "excuses," I deal in "reasons."  And you know you are being silly here.
::)


No I'm not.  Your statement basically made it sound like just because a person is poor and destitute means that he should ignore a Class 5 hurricane warning and hope that God doesn't smite him, and then after he gets smote, he gets to blame the government...now THAT is absurd.

No I'm not.  Your statement basically made it sound like just because a person is poor and destitute means that he should ignore a Class 5 hurricane warning and hope that God doesn't smite him, and then after he gets smote, he gets to blame the government...now THAT is absurd.


Thats because in some peoples minds, there is no difference in those down and out who make an attempt to get ahead, and the down and out who simply refuse to do anything to help their own situation and always place blame on everybody except themselves....

That idiot Nagin should have been publicly humiliated and executed after Katrina, especially since the city of NO had just gone through an emergency preparedness drill, found many deficiencies in their plan, and learned nothing from the experience.  Nagin dropped the ball big time, left the buses that could have been used to evacuate thousands to safety, not to mention the Amtrak train that was offered up to the city as another free means of escape, and the City (Nagin) said no thanks, we'll ride it out, and HE did, from the 8th floor of the hotel he stayed at....then he started in blaming the Governor and the Feds.

Nagin was the first line of defense and he failed miserably.  What idiot would send the police home when this baby was bearing down on the city???

Nagin was the first line of defense and he failed miserably.  What idiot would send the police home when this baby was bearing down on the city???



Then it was compounded by that idiot next door in Texas who said he didn't know the extent of the damage because he hadn't turned the television on while on his little vacation.

god, i'm really coming to find this "leave the poor to die" attitude in america totally dispiriting. it's like the USA is renouncing its claim to civilization. we say things like this and then wonder why the rest of the world views america with a smirk. can you imagine another country where their own countrymen and women die in vast numbers and their fellows sit there and say, oh well, they had it coming because they balked at abandoning their few remaining possessions and fleeing into homelessness. in any other country, it would be pretty obvious that the prevalence of such a diseased attitude signaled national dissolution and the likely onset of a civil war. americans are not supposed to give up on the lives of their fellows. no healthy nation does this.

god, i'm really coming to find this "leave the poor to die" attitude in america totally dispiriting. it's like the USA is renouncing its claim to civilization. we say things like this and then wonder why the rest of the world views america with a smirk. can you imagine another country where their own countrymen and women die in vast numbers and their fellows sit there and say, oh well, they had it coming because they balked at abandoning their few remaining possessions and fleeing into homelessness. in any other country, it would be pretty obvious that the prevalence of such a diseased attitude signaled national dissolution and the likely onset of a civil war. americans are not supposed to give up on the lives of their fellows. no healthy nation does this.



http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/thumbsup.gif

God, yes

and yet people complain that their loved ones were lost in katrina. shut up, they were warned, and well aware that they lived BELOW sea level. what the hell were they thinking!?!?!

and yet people complain that their loved ones were lost in katrina. shut up, they were warned, and well aware that they lived BELOW sea level. what the hell were they thinking!?!?!
the jews were TOLD that the germans were sick bastards in world war ii, too. what the hell was the matter with the ones who didn't get out? man, they sure were stupid. screw em.

and yet people complain that their loved ones were lost in katrina. shut up, they were warned, and well aware that they lived BELOW sea level. what the hell were they thinking!?!?!


It wasn't the hurricane that killed them.  The hurricane was long over. Jeez.  It was the levees that burst, something that no one living there, had the knowledge to forsee.  It wasn't the hurricane.  The people didn't have any more knowledge of this eventuality than the people caught on the bridge in Minneapolis, so if you are going to blame the people of New Orleans for putting themselves in this position then you must also blame the people of Minneapolis, and the people of Johnstown, and the people of Aberfan, the people of San Francisco, oh yeah, while you're at it, the World Trade Center was hit by a terrorist before 9/11 so you should blame the people in the towers. Christ the rich of Malibu who get burned out every year and have to rebuild their 5 million dollar mansions get more breastbeating.

god, i'm really coming to find this "leave the poor to die" attitude in america totally dispiriting. it's like the USA is renouncing its claim to civilization. we say things like this and then wonder why the rest of the world views america with a smirk. can you imagine another country where their own countrymen and women die in vast numbers and their fellows sit there and say, oh well, they had it coming because they balked at abandoning their few remaining possessions and fleeing into homelessness. in any other country, it would be pretty obvious that the prevalence of such a diseased attitude signaled national dissolution and the likely onset of a civil war. americans are not supposed to give up on the lives of their fellows. no healthy nation does this.


How great would the world be if it was only in the US? The poor and the sick are forgotten everywhere,if you can't give something back,your country couldn't care less about you,nothing is ever given to you,you must prove you deserve it first,prove you're worthy,if you're not,people will hate you,wish you're gone,any sign of weakness is seen as a flaw,you have to be strong,independent,in control...24/7. The "live and let die" mantra is the norm...everywhere.

god, i'm really coming to find this "leave the poor to die" attitude in america totally dispiriting. it's like the USA is renouncing its claim to civilization. we say things like this and then wonder why the rest of the world views america with a smirk. can you imagine another country where their own countrymen and women die in vast numbers and their fellows sit there and say, oh well, they had it coming because they balked at abandoning their few remaining possessions and fleeing into homelessness. in any other country, it would be pretty obvious that the prevalence of such a diseased attitude signaled national dissolution and the likely onset of a civil war. americans are not supposed to give up on the lives of their fellows. no healthy nation does this.

Karma +1

I couldn't sum it up any better, T. 

When our Christian president finally did go to the Gulf, he didn't go to New Orleans.  He went to Mississippi, to Hailey Barbour's mansion.  Jesus must have told Dubya, "Make sure rich Republicans are OK, look out for them, they're MY people!"



It wasn't the hurricane that killed them.  The hurricane was long over. Jeez.  It was the levees that burst, something that no one living there, had the knowledge to forsee.  It wasn't the hurricane.  The people didn't have any more knowledge of this eventuality than the people caught on the bridge in Minneapolis, so if you are going to blame the people of New Orleans for putting themselves in this position then you must also blame the people of Minneapolis, and the people of Johnstown, and the people of Aberfan, the people of San Francisco, oh yeah, while you're at it, the World Trade Center was hit by a terrorist before 9/11 so you should blame the people in the towers. Christ the rich of Malibu who get burned out every year and have to rebuild their 5 million dollar mansions get more breastbeating.


They're going to tell you the 9/11 victims had no warning, nor did those who lost their lies in the Mpls. bridge collapse.  This is true.  I tried to explain...tried to explain...why poor Louisianans did not evacuate.  What came back to me was obtuse reply, "Being poor is an excuse for not running away from a hurricane?"   It's not an excuse, it's a reason, and I explained the reason why. 

This not about "making excuses."  This is not about feeling sorry for anybody.  This is not about whether the federal government or the state government is to blame. This is the truth about poverty. 

The bottom line is self-described conservatives must not admit Americans are poor for any reasons other than character flaws for that is the keystone in the arc of the Ronald Reagan philosophy.

Thus, when I try to explain why poor Louisianans didn't leave town, there is only one possibility: It must somehow be their fault.
It is the same circular logic people exhibit when they have been brainwashed by cults.  No shades of gray, just black or white.
::)


the jews were TOLD that the germans were sick bastards in world war ii, too. what the hell was the matter with the ones who didn't get out? man, they sure were stupid. screw em.

Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews.  Our government just wishes the poor didn't exist in the first place.

It wasn't the hurricane that killed them.  The hurricane was long over. Jeez.  It was the levees that burst, something that no one living there, had the knowledge to forsee.  It wasn't the hurricane.  The people didn't have any more knowledge of this eventuality than the people caught on the bridge in Minneapolis, so if you are going to blame the people of New Orleans for putting themselves in this position then you must also blame the people of Minneapolis, and the people of Johnstown, and the people of Aberfan, the people of San Francisco, oh yeah, while you're at it, the World Trade Center was hit by a terrorist before 9/11 so you should blame the people in the towers. Christ the rich of Malibu who get burned out every year and have to rebuild their 5 million dollar mansions get more breastbeating.



hmmmm, were any of those people included in your examples warned? if not, it's an entirely different case. and how long after the hurricane was it that the levees break? unless it was days in between the hurricane and the levees breaking i don't see how anyone could have left, got settled at a relatives, and then gone back in time to drown. and ask yourself this, was the world trade center hit by terrorists?

hmmmm, were any of those people included in your examples warned? if not, it's an entirely different case. and how long after the hurricane was it that the levees break? unless it was days in between the hurricane and the levees breaking i don't see how anyone could have left, got settled at a relatives, and then gone back in time to drown. and ask yourself this, was the world trade center hit by terrorists?


If the levees had held, the people would have gone back home, and the people who remained behind would have been alive today.  The destruction that you see was because of the break in the levees. The reason the levees broke was because of mismanagement, the same way the collapse of the highway happened, and all of those other disasters.  Yes, the WTC was hit by terrorists, in 1993.  The hit in 2001 was the second time, and it was expected that it would happen again.  Now, do you fault the people who went to work everyday there for their own deaths?

It wasn't the hurricane that killed them.  The hurricane was long over. Jeez.  It was the levees that burst, something that no one living there, had the knowledge to forsee.  It wasn't the hurricane.  The people didn't have any more knowledge of this eventuality than the people caught on the bridge in Minneapolis, so if you are going to blame the people of New Orleans for putting themselves in this position then you must also blame the people of Minneapolis, and the people of Johnstown, and the people of Aberfan, the people of San Francisco, oh yeah, while you're at it, the World Trade Center was hit by a terrorist before 9/11 so you should blame the people in the towers. Christ the rich of Malibu who get burned out every year and have to rebuild their 5 million dollar mansions get more breastbeating.
The mandatory evacuation order given by Nagin 2 days before the levees failed included a warning that the storm surge would probably cause the levees to fail.  When the "rich of Malibu" get burned out or their hillside house slides into the ocean, everyone says "that's what you get for living on the side of a hill near the ocean."  Imagine the outrage if they banded together and blamed the government for not notifying them that they were living in a potentially dangerous area.  Why is it perfectly acceptable to say that, but if you say that someone (be they rich or poor) who lives below sea level should have a reasonable expectation that they could get flooded you get chastized?  Are we not responsible for ANY of our actions anymore? 

When Katrina struck thousands of people died and tens of thousands more were left homeless; everything they owned wiped out in the deluge.  The bottom line is when this happened the chief question asked of our country was:
"Whose fault is it?"
Then the media gave the answer:
"The liberals and the blacks."

That is the question still bandied about with rancor two years later.
And the answer is still the same.

Keep the discussion at that knuckle-headed level, and they don't have to worry about people looking into the corruption, barbarism, cronyism, and failure to rebuild infrastructure in Louisiana.
___________

Rich people build homes vulnerable to mudslides, forest fires, and hurricanes because they live on capital, not credit.  These people can afford the insurance premiums and when the mansion crashes down the cliffside or goes up in flames, they can afford to build it all again.  It's a sort of status symbol. 

interesting that my last post dissapeared.

Thus, when I try to explain why poor Louisianans didn't leave town, there is only one possibility: It must somehow be their fault.



There is another possibility as well, one which I'm sure will get accosted for my posting:

How many of the people who didn't evacuate planned on staying there, knowing full well that many homes would be abandoned, no law enforcement would be around and that would give a golden opportunity to loot and steal to their hearts desire??  I'll bet it was a greater number than many of the "blame the government" types would care to admit...

If, and it's been said many a time on this forum that "desperation" and "despair" makes people do what they do, then this possibility as a valid theory holds water....although it'll be ignored because it doesn't hold true to the ramblings some post, even though it uses their own observations as it's core element.....

. The reason the levees broke was because of mismanagement,


True, it was mismanagement, starting with the Levee Board, who in their infinite wisdom decided to take funds allocated to the levees and instead redirect the money to build an overhead walkway to the casino's, but it was only a few million dollars so who cares, right??  To hell with the worst case scenario, lets make sure the patrons of the casino's feet stay dry while they walk.....

The mandatory evacuation order given by Nagin 2 days before the levees failed included a warning that the storm surge would probably cause the levees to fail.  When the "rich of Malibu" get burned out or their hillside house slides into the ocean, everyone says "that's what you get for living on the side of a hill near the ocean."  Imagine the outrage if they banded together and blamed the government for not notifying them that they were living in a potentially dangerous area.  Why is it perfectly acceptable to say that, but if you say that someone (be they rich or poor) who lives below sea level should have a reasonable expectation that they could get flooded you get chastized?  Are we not responsible for ANY of our actions anymore? 


Nope, we can blame everything on the government, we're becoming a society where we can place blame on everybody except ourselves.

Maybe in 5 years time or so, we can degenerate to the point of if I build a home for a client, intentionally make it shoddy and unsafe, have it collapse and kill the occupants, I can blame the government for not having tough enough enforcement of codes, or for not being stringent enough in inspections, sue them for big money (as long as I cry loud enough, to enough microphones and TV cameras) get a mondo settlement and never have to raise a finger again....

When Katrina struck thousands of people died and tens of thousands more were left homeless; everything they owned wiped out in the deluge.  The bottom line is when this happened the chief question asked of our country was:
"Whose fault is it?"
Then the media gave the answer:
"The liberals and the blacks."

That is the question still bandied about with rancor two years later.
And the answer is still the same.

Keep the discussion at that knuckle-headed level, and they don't have to worry about people looking into the corruption, barbarism, cronyism, and failure to rebuild infrastructure in Louisiana.
___________

Rich people build homes vulnerable to mudslides, forest fires, and hurricanes because they live on capital, not credit.  These people can afford the insurance premiums and when the mansion crashes down the cliffside or goes up in flames, they can afford to build it all again.  It's a sort of status symbol. 




What media blamed the liberals and the blacks??

Are you referring to the media who questioned the actions(or gross lack of them) of Mayor Nagin??

Nagin is, was, and will continue to be an idiot.  He failed..period.  (But he made sure he was high and dry)

I can see the left wing media, the left wing mayors and governors screaming to high heaven if by chance a Republican President mobilized the National Guard before the request was made by local authorities in an attempt to save people because the local government was inept....but thats another story all together.....

Yes, in the media, only blacks were portrayed as looters; add to that the message that they chose to drop out of school, they chose to live in tenements in the 9th ward instead of the posh upland, and the chose not to have jobs; it's easy to conclude the blacks cunningly stayed behind to steal stuff.

We are a people who are perpetually told we blame the government and not ourselves.  That's what I hear in the public discourse.  Rich white guys crowing about "personal responsibility."  It's a bunch of vacuous hogwash; the real message is: The government is there to do favors for millionaires, not to help out poor folks.
::)

Yes, in the media, only blacks were portrayed as looters; add to that the message that they chose to drop out of school, they chose to live in tenements in the 9th ward instead of the posh upland, and the chose not to have jobs; it's easy to conclude the blacks cunningly stayed behind to steal stuff.

We are a people who are perpetually told we blame the government and not ourselves.  That's what I hear in the public discourse.  Rich white guys crowing about "personal responsibility."  It's a bunch of vacuous hogwash; the real message is: The government is there to do favors for millionaires, not to help out poor folks.
::)


Strange..I just did a Google search titled "hurricane Katrina looters", and on the first page, more than 50% of the pictures showed white people doing the looting...I think that that would qualify as media, eh??

I also think in the post I made, no mention of color of any kind was mentioned, only a phrase close to "those who stayed behind"..........

What media blamed the liberals and the blacks??

Are you referring to the media who questioned the actions(or gross lack of them) of Mayor Nagin??

Nagin is, was, and will continue to be an idiot.  He failed..period.  (But he made sure he was high and dry)

I can see the left wing media, the left wing mayors and governors screaming to high heaven if by chance a Republican President mobilized the National Guard before the request was made by local authorities in an attempt to save people because the local government was inept....but thats another story all together.....


The media who blamed Nagin(rightfully), but accepted the bush argument that 1) he didn't know how bad it was because he didn't watch tv while on vacation, What? no televisions in Texas? If I was in Bagdad right now I would be worried, do you think the have televisions in Maine? and 2) he couldn't order help because the governor of New Orleans didn't request it, which was found to be and out  and out lie, the tape of the request was found, the explaination was the subordinate(no name given) didn't pass the request on.

The mandatory evacuation order given by Nagin 2 days before the levees failed included a warning that the storm surge would probably cause the levees to fail.  When the "rich of Malibu" get burned out or their hillside house slides into the ocean, everyone says "that's what you get for living on the side of a hill near the ocean."  Imagine the outrage if they banded together and blamed the government for not notifying them that they were living in a potentially dangerous area.  Why is it perfectly acceptable to say that, but if you say that someone (be they rich or poor) who lives below sea level should have a reasonable expectation that they could get flooded you get chastized?  Are we not responsible for ANY of our actions anymore? 



And since 1993 they had expected another hit on the WTC, they just didn't anticipate the way it happened.  People in areas that are flooded by storms or areas where fires are common, like Malibu, are able to recieve government subsidized insurance to help them rebuild.  The people in Louisiana who lived in the area below sea level were the poor who couldn't afford to live anywhere else because that is what happens when you are poor.  Many owned the homes for generations, and it probably took them that long to be able to pay the mortgage off, and probably didn't believe, the levees could fail, because of that belief they lost everything they had. Those hanging on by a thread now are seeing their homes being taken over by developers who all of the sudden have decided that this is a desirable investment.  How much you wanna bet the levees get a bit more attention now?

How great would the world be if it was only in the US? The poor and the sick are forgotten everywhere,if you can't give something back,your country couldn't care less about you,nothing is ever given to you,you must prove you deserve it first,prove you're worthy,if you're not,people will hate you,wish you're gone,any sign of weakness is seen as a flaw,you have to be strong,independent,in control...24/7. The "live and let die" mantra is the norm...everywhere.
well, gee, now iºm really depressed. :( i dunno, i think a lot of us grew up as kids and it seemed like people helped each other because adults would usually be helpful and it sorta seemed like the world was a more compassionate place. and then in college it was all about idealism, at least where i went, and these teenagers and twenty-somethings who seemed like they wanted to improve things, even if their methods were sometimes misguided. so its been a real kick in the head to grow up and realize that the world is a much colder place than iºd been led to expect, yanno? that people really dont seem to care much about each other and if one person sees another person down on their luck they dont think well, maybe i should pitch in because under the right circumstances this could be me... instead they seem to think, oh, well, sucks for you but i got mine. i dunno if itºs always been that way, i mean i think it has been to some extent but it seems worse to me in the last few years, certainly here in the USA. i dont know if its just because i HAVE grown up and now i see the world as it really is and always has been, or if things really have gotten that much worse since the conservative resurgence has kinda screwed up the country. i dunno, i suspect itºs a mix of both. sorta explains why iºm so anxious to go back to the days of witch mountain and land of the lost, i guess.  :-\\ it sure sucks to learn how bad things really are, i miss the days when my biggest concern was where my next fudgsicle was coming from and how in the hell i was gonna manage to keep my head screwed to my body for the weeks until "moonraker" finally came out in the theaters. lol.

The media who blamed Nagin(rightfully), but accepted the bush argument that 1) he didn't know how bad it was because he didn't watch tv while on vacation, What? no televisions in Texas? If I was in Bagdad right now I would be worried, do you think the have televisions in Maine? and 2) he couldn't order help because the governor of New Orleans didn't request it, which was found to be and out  and out lie, the tape of the request was found, the explaination was the subordinate(no name given) didn't pass the request on.


Just a couple things...

I think you meant the Governor of Louisiana ?

I'm not passing off the Feds response to this, but..

Nagin was the first line of defense, and he did not follow the disaster plan set in place for the city in case of a storm like this, right??

Nagin also did not communicate with Governor Blanco correctly either...

Governor Blanco had the power at her fingertips to mobilize the national guard and start enforcing mandatory evacuations, well before Katrina made landfall, and in the interim period between when Nagin used lip service only to the people of N.O., telling them of the mandatory evacuation and then failing to do follow up.

I'm pretty sure that the individual state has the responsibility to be the first line of defense in a crisis such as this, with the Fed coming in afterwards.  The Feds response in this situation was pathetic, no doubt.  However, you can't expect the Fed to be prepared to mobilize at a moments notice in a situation like this either, it's not designed to be that way.

Nagin and Blanco both had the means at their collective fingertips to minimize this situation and provide the first stages of relief, and both of them failed to do so, choosing instead to point fingers...Nagin pointed to the State, the State pointed back to both the local level and the Fed level, and in both cases they tried to take the heat off themselves and point blame elsewhere..so why is it that some idiot like Nagin  gets attention when he squawks to the media?  If the "race card" is gonna get played concerning Katrina victims, let it start with Nagin himself.  Last I checked, he is a black man, so before the lefties all start screaming about how the Right wing abandoned the blacks down there, lets look at a black man, in power and in a position to make a difference for his people, and all he thought about was taking care of his own needs and abandoning "his own"....

Certainly if not at the local level, then at the State level, there is some control over the Levee Board, and yet they took funds allocated for levee maintenance and instead worried about improving access to a casino...or are we going to blame the Feds for that as well because it was Fed money that got misappropriated??  The money came from the Feds, and now they'd be faulted for not micro managing??

Just a couple things...

I think you meant the Governor of Louisiana ?

I'm not passing off the Feds response to this, but..

Nagin was the first line of defense, and he did not follow the disaster plan set in place for the city in case of a storm like this, right??

Nagin also did not communicate with Governor Blanco correctly either...

Governor Blanco had the power at her fingertips to mobilize the national guard and start enforcing mandatory evacuations, well before Katrina made landfall, and in the interim period between when Nagin used lip service only to the people of N.O., telling them of the mandatory evacuation and then failing to do follow up.

I'm pretty sure that the individual state has the responsibility to be the first line of defense in a crisis such as this, with the Fed coming in afterwards.  The Feds response in this situation was pathetic, no doubt.  However, you can't expect the Fed to be prepared to mobilize at a moments notice in a situation like this either, it's not designed to be that way.

Nagin and Blanco both had the means at their collective fingertips to minimize this situation and provide the first stages of relief, and both of them failed to do so, choosing instead to point fingers...Nagin pointed to the State, the State pointed back to both the local level and the Fed level, and in both cases they tried to take the heat off themselves and point blame elsewhere..so why is it that some idiot like Nagin  gets attention when he squawks to the media?  If the "race card" is gonna get played concerning Katrina victims, let it start with Nagin himself.  Last I checked, he is a black man, so before the lefties all start screaming about how the Right wing abandoned the blacks down there, lets look at a black man, in power and in a position to make a difference for his people, and all he thought about was taking care of his own needs and abandoning "his own"....

Certainly if not at the local level, then at the State level, there is some control over the Levee Board, and yet they took funds allocated for levee maintenance and instead worried about improving access to a casino...or are we going to blame the Feds for that as well because it was Fed money that got misappropriated??  The money came from the Feds, and now they'd be faulted for not micro managing??


Nagin is also a rich man, I don't understand why people don't understand that just because someone is of the same "race" they must identify or care.  Just as some rich people see some poor white people as trash, so do some rich black people see poor white people as trash.  There fact is it was race and class, in one of the most corrupt cities in the United States coming together that caused this problem, but people for some reason want to blame the people at the very bottom, and I mean very bottom, of the social structure.  The Feds should not have had to mobilize at a moments notice, when their own bureau was sending out warnings they should have mobilized, they could have been in and around New Orleans helping prepared to help some 48 hours before the debacle.  Of course they are stretched a bit thin since many were in Iraq and Afghanistan helping to clean up the mess that bushie made over there. Yes I will blame the Feds for the misappropriated funds.  I can't miss a minute on my Income tax without them knowing, you really so naive as to think that they didn't know what was going on there, what has been going on for decades, c'mon.

Nagin is also a rich man, I don't understand why people don't understand that just because someone is of the same "race" they must identify or care.  Just as some rich people see some poor white people as trash, so do some rich black people see poor white people as trash.  There fact is it was race and class, in one of the most corrupt cities in the United States coming together that caused this problem, but people for some reason want to blame the people at the very bottom, and I mean very bottom, of the social structure.  The Feds should not have had to mobilize at a moments notice, when their own bureau was sending out warnings they should have mobilized, they could have been in and around New Orleans helping prepared to help some 48 hours before the debacle.  Of course they are stretched a bit thin since many were in Iraq and Afghanistan helping to clean up the mess that bushie made over there. Yes I will blame the Feds for the misappropriated funds.  I can't miss a minute on my Income tax without them knowing, you really so naive as to think that they didn't know what was going on there, what has been going on for decades, c'mon.


Exactly !!  The Feds should not have had to mobilize at a moments notice..they had the SAME AMOUNT of lead time as both the local government and the State government had..and we see what both the local and state did as far as mobilization, right??  And given that the local and state had the forces a hell of a lot closer to start an evacuation/preparation for the worst and didn't, then we should blame the Feds as well....talk about naive.

If the Feds could have been on site 48 hours before, think of how many hours ahead of time the local and state forces could have been on scene and ready.

Maybe, since the city of N.O. is soooo corrupt, and since everybody knows it, the Feds should have stepped in, some sort of martial law enacted and just tossed out the politicians who were corrupt....interesting concept.  I wonder if that will work with the Spitzer/Bruno debacle we have in NYS right now??  I'm sure nobody would be outraged at a forceful federal intervention, as long as it's for the common good, right??

Now..if this is just all about "Class and race", and a rich DemLib isn't the answer, and a rich Right Conservative isn't the answer, irregardless of the individuals color, then what is??

Perhaps it's about time the people, those "lowest levels" you speak of start doing something about their situation themselves, helping their own, not looting and rioting, and work to not be dependent on government.  Human spirit will never die, unless the individual in question makes it die, it cannot be crushed out of existence by any higher authority.....

Perhaps it's about time the people, those "lowest levels" you speak of start doing something about their situation themselves, helping their own, not looting and rioting, and work to not be dependent on government.  Human spirit will never die, unless the individual in question makes it die, it cannot be crushed out of existence by any higher authority.....



You do realize that most of the people in the lower social strata, of which most of us are closer that we care to admit, even to ourselves, do not loot, or riot, and are not dependant on the government.  Such is the case in New Orleans. They go to work and they work hard, and they pay taxes, and get precious little in return, especially in the area of education, and wage equalization, major cures for what ails society  For some reason people want to focus in on the people who did loot and riot to justify the case that the majority of the people who did deserved what they got, a very rovian tactic. Now why is that?

And since 1993 they had expected another hit on the WTC, they just didn't anticipate the way it happened.  People in areas that are flooded by storms or areas where fires are common, like Malibu, are able to recieve government subsidized insurance to help them rebuild.  The people in Louisiana who lived in the area below sea level were the poor who couldn't afford to live anywhere else because that is what happens when you are poor.  Many owned the homes for generations, and it probably took them that long to be able to pay the mortgage off, and probably didn't believe, the levees could fail, because of that belief they lost everything they had. Those hanging on by a thread now are seeing their homes being taken over by developers who all of the sudden have decided that this is a desirable investment.  How much you wanna bet the levees get a bit more attention now?
Again, the difference is that the people in the WTC were not given warning that an attack on the buildings was coming.  If they were warned that a plane was going to fly into the buildings I highly doubt most of them would have shown up to work on that day.  The people of NO were warned that the levees most likely could not withstand the storm surge and would fail.  I don't care if you're rich, poor, black, white, whatever....if you get warning that failure of the defense structures around your home is imminent, you should get the heck out of there. 

Again, the difference is that the people in the WTC were not given warning that an attack on the buildings was coming.  If they were warned that a plane was going to fly into the buildings I highly doubt most of them would have shown up to work on that day.  The people of NO were warned that the levees most likely could not withstand the storm surge and would fail.  I don't care if you're rich, poor, black, white, whatever....if you get warning that failure of the defense structures around your home is imminent, you should get the heck out of there. 


Again, the people in the WTC had known for 8 years that the WTC was a prime target for terrorism, It was hit once in 1993, and there was another aborted try, they chose to work there anyway.

Again, the difference is that the people in the WTC were not given warning that an attack on the buildings was coming.  If they were warned that a plane was going to fly into the buildings I highly doubt most of them would have shown up to work on that day.  The people of NO were warned that the levees most likely could not withstand the storm surge and would fail.  I don't care if you're rich, poor, black, white, whatever....if you get warning that failure of the defense structures around your home is imminent, you should get the heck out of there. 
yeah, they did. the building was attacked in 93. itºs stupid to keep working in a building after it´s been attacked once. a lot of people who were paying attention knew it was only a matter of time. john oneill did.

and of course, when the big quake hits california and hundreds of thousands die in san francisco and los angeles, thatºll be their fault too. itºs not like they donºt know itºs coming.

ditto everyone who lives in a trailer park in tornado alley, or people who live in villages under mountain slopes where there might be mudslides. really, the list of people who are to blame for their own death, injury and homelessness in the face of predictable (in hindsight) natural disaster goes on and on and on.

The people of NO were warned that the levees most likely could not withstand the storm surge and would fail. who was it who said, "i dont think anyone could have foreseen that the levees would fail"? AFTER the flood? if the president, who i would hope is getting better information than anyone else in america, didnºt think the levees were going to fail, how in the hell was everyone in new orleans supposed to know this?

This whole thing seems a little ridiculous to me. So what, instead of helping someone who is in terrible need after a natural disaster, say a flood, you say 'f**k right off' and tell them they shouldn't have been living near a lake? Is that how mean and cruel you want your society to be? I mean being a society of jaded, surly wretches I can handle, but this is another level.

List of stuff I know and/or heard about:

1.  Hurricane Katrina was forecast with plenty of warning before "touchdown" in NOLA.

2.  Lots of buses shown parked in a parking lot, ready for evacuation. (see Snopes)

3.  NOLA mayor did little to nothing prior to hurricane.

4.  LA governor did little to nothing prior to hurricane.

5.  FEMA was incompetent.

6.  Bush was AWOL.

7.  People decided not to evacuate knowing that hurricane was about to touch down, whether levees were structurally sufficient or otherwise.

8.  The IRS did give out tax breaks for whoever took in Katrina and Wilma refugees, which I think are good until next year if you want to give them a hookup.

9.  Therefore, it was everyone's fault.  The people for not evacuating given enough warning, Louisiana and New Orleans for having crappy levees, the mayor for being an asshat, the governor for not getting enough aid to the region prior to/during/after the disaster, FEMA dude for being an idiot, the feds for not pre-empting the incompetent LA authorities and helping already, and everyone who wasn't smacked by a hurricane for saying "HA HA!  Toldja so."

10. So stop pointing fingers.

This whole thing seems a little ridiculous to me. So what, instead of helping someone who is in terrible need after a natural disaster, say a flood, you say 'f**k right off' and tell them they shouldn't have been living near a lake? Is that how mean and cruel you want your society to be? I mean being a society of jaded, surly wretches I can handle, but this is another level.


This is the best thing I've read in this whole miserable topic.

Look, regardless of who's fault it was, it doesn't matter anymore. Katrina is over and done with. The levees failing is over and done with. What has happened, happened. Right now, the people that lost everything are trying to rebuild their lives. Can't we focus on helping them instead of bickering about where to lay the blame?

If trapped in a corner, I would say it is everyone's fault, and nobody's. Everyone should have been more prepared for something of this magnitude, but they weren't. The whole situation could have been handled differently, but it wasn't. Are we going to learn from it? Is our governement (local/state/federal) going to learn from it? Probably not. We'll feign interest for as long as it serves us, act like we're preparing now that something MAJOR happened, and then forget about it until the next big thing comes along that we can complain about. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

As for knowing what is going to happen and when and where and all that, you can't know. That is a part of living anywhere. Hell, we got the crazy looks from realtors when asking if buildings were retrofitted for earthquakes in Chicago. I guess it never crossed their mind that they're a mere stone's throw away from a major faultline. But that's the Californian in me. Of course I'm going to ask about a building's strength, even though we're more likely to get smacked by a tornado or a bad storm.

As for the original topic, IF I had warning about a major disaster, I'd be gone. F**k my possessions. I have a family to protect. If my neighbors want to come along, fine. If not, their problem. However, I'm not going to leave the elderly or handicapped behind. I think that's what ooged me out about Katrina more than anything: everyone's lack of willingness to actually get the people WHO COULDN'T MOVE get out of there.

1. Some of the people who worked in the WTC  have been warned.
"...And that's all I have to say about that."
--Forrest Gump
:-X

2. Black Republicans are some of the most staunch and relentless I've ever seen!  Rep. JC Watts and Star Parker come to mind.  They believe the biggest impediment to African-Americans is liberal ideology and the "Democrat" party.  In spite of what the media shows us, African-American culture is quite conservative.  I don't have the stats in front of me, but I'll bet per capita, blacks are more church-going than whites; they favor corporal punishment; their issue with capital punishment is unjust distribution rather than the sentence itself.  Again, in spite of what the media tells us about welfare queens, crack ho's, and deadbeat dads, the black parents I have observed demand more obedience, deference, manners, and courtesy from their children than do white parents.  This is straying from the topic a bit, and it is, of course, generalization, but the fact that the Republican party--the self-declared party of church, family values, and tradition--cannot claim black Americans as a constituency tells me there is a darn good reason!
::)

3. 
This whole thing seems a little ridiculous to me. So what, instead of helping someone who is in terrible need after a natural disaster, say a flood, you say 'f**k right off' and tell them they shouldn't have been living near a lake? Is that how mean and cruel you want your society to be? I mean being a society of jaded, surly wretches I can handle, but this is another level.

Karma+1.  I say so myself and shake my head in disbelief!
:(

4.
i guess.  :-\\ it sure sucks to learn how bad things really are, i miss the days when my biggest concern was where my next fudgsicle was coming from and how in the hell i was gonna manage to keep my head screwed to my body for the weeks until "moonraker" finally came out in the theaters. lol.

Ah, memories.  Sometimes I wish I could have 10-year-old problems and 40-year-old privileges!  I do miss the days when I knew not that "Moonraker" was the worst Bond film ever, and a Fudgsicle is a cheap-azz refreshment!
;D

Exactly !!  The Feds should not have had to mobilize at a moments notice..they had the SAME AMOUNT of lead time as both the local government and the State government had..and we see what both the local and state did as far as mobilization, right??  And given that the local and state had the forces a hell of a lot closer to start an evacuation/preparation for the worst and didn't, then we should blame the Feds as well....talk about naive.

If the Feds could have been on site 48 hours before, think of how many hours ahead of time the local and state forces could have been on scene and ready.


There is one thing that a lot of people tend to forget:

The "Feds" had not only NO to take care of, but also Florida, Mississippi, Texas, Alabama, and the rest of Louisiana.

Katrina was a "Killer Storm" before it even struck NO.  Because a full 5 days before slamming into the Gulf Coast, it killed 14 people in Florida.  The torn of Surgidero de Batabano, Cuba was underwater because of storm surge. 

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/2005/08/29/batters.shtml

Now here are some other "facts":

Even if the levees had not failed, NO would still have been inundated with water.  The levees were designed to withstand a Level 3 hurricane, not a level 5.

The City, County, and State officials simply dropped the ball in reguards to evacuation.  This is in no way a "Federal Responsibility".  And if people insist it is, then we should go ahead and dissolve all city, county, and state governments.  Because they are obviously worthless in incompatant.

While people think that response was slow in arriving in NO, you have to remember that they had already been in Southern Florida for days helping in disaster relief in that state.  And not only was NO hit, but every seacoast community stretching from Panama City in the East to the Texas border.

And it did not end there.  Flooding continued in more Northern states for another week.  States as far away as Georgia, Pennsylvania and Ohio had deaths related to flooding and tornados spawned by Katrina.  And Ontario Canada also had massive flooding.

In fact, the actual landfall of Katrina was in Mississippi.  It struch roughly half-way between Biloxi and New Orleans.  Biloxi was on the East side of the storm, and New Orleans was on the West.  And as anybody who lives in Hurricane country knows, the East side of the storm is the worst.  And the damage shows in this case as well.

Looking at NO, it was badly flooded.  But if you look at Biloxi, it was destroyed.  Almost no buildings over 3 stories survived, and those that did were heavily damaged.  NO had far worse damage from flooding then from the actual storm itself.

And in addition, NO was never really evacuated.  That is why they had in excess of 1,400 people killed.  Biloxi on the other had had a planned evacuation, and warning was given early enough by local officials to get most of the people out.  So even though they were far more heavily damaged, only 238 people died in the entire state of Mississippi.

NO and Biloxi are still devistated.  But where one community whines and complains, the other is rebuilding while nobody notices.  When it comes to a disaster on this scale, waiting for the Federal Goverment is really stupid.  Because "The Feds" have much more then one city to think about.  Or would people rather see all aid going to NO, and screw the people in the other states?

yeah, they did. the building was attacked in 93. itºs stupid to keep working in a building after it´s been attacked once. a lot of people who were paying attention knew it was only a matter of time. john oneill did.

and of course, when the big quake hits california and hundreds of thousands die in san francisco and los angeles, thatºll be their fault too. itºs not like they donºt know itºs coming.

ditto everyone who lives in a trailer park in tornado alley, or people who live in villages under mountain slopes where there might be mudslides. really, the list of people who are to blame for their own death, injury and homelessness in the face of predictable (in hindsight) natural disaster goes on and on and on.


I don't mean to imply that it is their fault.  I am saying that if you are going to blame the people of New Orleans for what happened, then by extension you have to blame the people in all these other situations, too.  I don't, I see the circumstances in people lives that make it next to impossible to be anywhere but where they are, their options are extremely limited and Katrina was a glaring example of that.  For some reason or another there are people in the United States that think that this is a free country.  Well, it is, but some are more free than others.

A perfect example of Mother Nature being a b*tch:

Tornado Hits Brooklyn

I highly doubt anyone expected THAT. :o

two things i'll  say about moonraker -- possibly the best opening action sequence of any bond movie ever, and a bunch of it was shot in rrio. thaat was cool.  plus it was full of space shuttles! i loved that part.

whaddaya want? i was like eight. :P

who was it who said, "i dont think anyone could have foreseen that the levees would fail"? AFTER the flood? if the president, who i would hope is getting better information than anyone else in america, didnºt think the levees were going to fail, how in the hell was everyone in new orleans supposed to know this?
In his mandatory evacuation order/speech thing, Nagin said that ""the storm surge most likely will topple our levee system"....I just ignored whatever Bush said because he's an idiot :P
Again, the people in the WTC had known for 8 years that the WTC was a prime target for terrorism, It was hit once in 1993, and there was another aborted try, they chose to work there anyway.
And again, they were not told days in advance of the attack that it was going to happen.....


This whole thing seems a little ridiculous to me. So what, instead of helping someone who is in terrible need after a natural disaster, say a flood, you say 'f**k right off' and tell them they shouldn't have been living near a lake? Is that how mean and cruel you want your society to be? I mean being a society of jaded, surly wretches I can handle, but this is another level.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't be helped, what I'm trying to point out is that blame is being placed on everyone else for what happened in NO except the people of NO.  Yes, the government (local, state, etc) dropped the ball, but the people themselves have to take some responsibility as well.  And, like Mushroom said (wonderfully, I might add), to depend solely on the government is ill-advised. 
This is the best thing I've read in this whole miserable topic.

Look, regardless of who's fault it was, it doesn't matter anymore. Katrina is over and done with. The levees failing is over and done with. What has happened, happened. Right now, the people that lost everything are trying to rebuild their lives. Can't we focus on helping them instead of bickering about where to lay the blame?

If trapped in a corner, I would say it is everyone's fault, and nobody's. Everyone should have been more prepared for something of this magnitude, but they weren't. The whole situation could have been handled differently, but it wasn't. Are we going to learn from it? Is our governement (local/state/federal) going to learn from it? Probably not. We'll feign interest for as long as it serves us, act like we're preparing now that something MAJOR happened, and then forget about it until the next big thing comes along that we can complain about. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

As for knowing what is going to happen and when and where and all that, you can't know. That is a part of living anywhere. Hell, we got the crazy looks from realtors when asking if buildings were retrofitted for earthquakes in Chicago. I guess it never crossed their mind that they're a mere stone's throw away from a major faultline. But that's the Californian in me. Of course I'm going to ask about a building's strength, even though we're more likely to get smacked by a tornado or a bad storm.

As for the original topic, IF I had warning about a major disaster, I'd be gone. F**k my possessions. I have a family to protect. If my neighbors want to come along, fine. If not, their problem. However, I'm not going to leave the elderly or handicapped behind. I think that's what ooged me out about Katrina more than anything: everyone's lack of willingness to actually get the people WHO COULDN'T MOVE get out of there.
Well said.  And, BTW, an earthquake DID hit Illinois a couple of years back.

two things i'll  say about moonraker -- possibly the best opening action sequence of any bond movie ever, and a bunch of it was shot in rrio. thaat was cool.  plus it was full of space shuttles! i loved that part.

whaddaya want? i was like eight. :P


And then Jaws starts kicking ass for the good guys when he finds out archvillain Drax in his eugenics scheme won't let him marry his tootsie-pie "Dolly" 'cos they're a couple of defectives.
:D

I dunno, I guess this means I've said I'll I've got to say about the topic at hand.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif

And then Jaws starts kicking ass for the good guys when he finds out archvillain Drax in his eugenics scheme won't let him marry his tootsie-pie "Dolly" 'cos they're a couple of defectives.
:D

I dunno, I guess this means I've said I'll I've got to say about the topic at hand.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nixweiss.gif
it was totally drax's fault jaws turned on him. he really should have seen it coming. although... that whole daydream of a master race in orbit sorta seems like that's where the conservatives are headed. :P after enough natural disasters happen that are the fault of the people victimized by the disasters that's gonna be about the only thing left to go. i have to admit i was surprised how easily the conservatives in government were willing to give up on new orleans, which was a wonderful city, just because it's under sea level. just about everyplace in america has some prospective disaster looming over it -- like california, the people who live in tornado alley, heck, here in washington we get to worry about suitcase nukes and dirty bombs. if one goes off here, it'll be my fault i didn't leave, plainly. ::) but the point is, just about everyplace is like that in some way.

anyway, hindsight is 20/20 and people can say somehow nagin knew for a fact that the levees would fail but i remember at the time the reports i read were much more ambiguous -- katrina hit land as a cat 4 and a lot of reports i was reading in the news right up until the levee broke were saying it wasn't going to turn out nearly as bad as people thought. who was it who said, "we dodged a bullet"? so no, the people in NO didn't KNOW the levees would break any more than the rest of us did.

You do realize that most of the people in the lower social strata, of which most of us are closer that we care to admit, even to ourselves, do not loot, or riot, and are not dependant on the government.  Such is the case in New Orleans. They go to work and they work hard, and they pay taxes, and get precious little in return, especially in the area of education, and wage equalization, major cures for what ails society  For some reason people want to focus in on the people who did loot and riot to justify the case that the majority of the people who did deserved what they got, a very rovian tactic. Now why is that?


I'm not seeing in any of my posts where I said ALL that stayed behind looted and rioted.  I'm speculating that a select few(or few dozen, or few hundred as the case may be) just might have stayed and tried to ride out the storm in anticipation of the looting they could do during the chaos that ensued.

If a looter was caught carrying out a case of bottled water, or formula for an infant, thats what I'd call an acceptable (although still wrong) activity.  However, carrying off TV's, stereos and the like are hardly what anybody could misconstrue as a necessity for survival in an instance such as the Katrina aftermath, no??  It DID happen there in N.O., and it's pretty well documented.

I don't also see where anybody is focusing in exclusively on the looters that stayed behind, but it's got to be a consideration that some people stayed behind just for the free shopping spree, regardless of the color of their skin.

Another case in point:  when the big ice storm hit here in 1998, and the big blizzard of 77 and the next in 78 hit here, there was no looting, no rioting, even though all public services were pretty much destroyed, and many locations were without power for 28-35 days, no travel (via normal means, much as in N.O.)was possible on the roads, businesses were closed indefinitely, etc.

We won't even consider the fact that the blizzards of 77 and 78 encompassed enough square miles to drop 100-200 New Orleans sized cities into, nor the fact the the ice storm encompassed a half dozen counties in upstate NY (one of these, St. Lawrence county, 2,685.6 Sq Miles, the largest county east of the Mississippi river) was completely shut down.  There was no place for the people to go up here, the devastation was too widespread to run and relocate.

For the people of N.O. that evacuated, bravo.  For the ones who helped their elderly and infirm neighbors, big kudos.  For those that risked their own lives to help out their fellow man, ditto.  For those who stayed behind for whatever devious means and intents ( and we all know there had to be some), I have nothing but scorn.....

As far as the argument that they had no means of evacuating, nor of having anyplace to go, I'd much rather be walking to nowhere and live exposed to the elements for a few days rather than sit in a static position and be dead....it's not like they were striking out in minus 20 degree weather to face the elements....

I'm not seeing in any of my posts where I said ALL that stayed behind looted and rioted.  I'm speculating that a select few(or few dozen, or few hundred as the case may be) just might have stayed and tried to ride out the storm in anticipation of the looting they could do during the chaos that ensued.

If a looter was caught carrying out a case of bottled water, or formula for an infant, thats what I'd call an acceptable (although still wrong) activity.  However, carrying off TV's, stereos and the like are hardly what anybody could misconstrue as a necessity for survival in an instance such as the Katrina aftermath, no??  It DID happen there in N.O., and it's pretty well documented.

I don't also see where anybody is focusing in exclusively on the looters that stayed behind, but it's got to be a consideration that some people stayed behind just for the free shopping spree, regardless of the color of their skin.

Another case in point:  when the big ice storm hit here in 1998, and the big blizzard of 77 and the next in 78 hit here, there was no looting, no rioting, even though all public services were pretty much destroyed, and many locations were without power for 28-35 days, no travel (via normal means, much as in N.O.)was possible on the roads, businesses were closed indefinitely, etc.

We won't even consider the fact that the blizzards of 77 and 78 encompassed enough square miles to drop 100-200 New Orleans sized cities into, nor the fact the the ice storm encompassed a half dozen counties in upstate NY (one of these, St. Lawrence county, 2,685.6 Sq Miles, the largest county east of the Mississippi river) was completely shut down.  There was no place for the people to go up here, the devastation was too widespread to run and relocate.

For the people of N.O. that evacuated, bravo.  For the ones who helped their elderly and infirm neighbors, big kudos.  For those that risked their own lives to help out their fellow man, ditto.  For those who stayed behind for whatever devious means and intents ( and we all know there had to be some), I have nothing but scorn.....

As far as the argument that they had no means of evacuating, nor of having anyplace to go, I'd much rather be walking to nowhere and live exposed to the elements for a few days rather than sit in a static position and be dead....it's not like they were striking out in minus 20 degree weather to face the elements....


Karma

For the people of N.O. that evacuated, bravo.  For the ones who helped their elderly and infirm neighbors, big kudos.  For those that risked their own lives to help out their fellow man, ditto.  For those who stayed behind for whatever devious means and intents ( and we all know there had to be some), I have nothing but scorn.....

As far as the argument that they had no means of evacuating, nor of having anyplace to go, I'd much rather be walking to nowhere and live exposed to the elements for a few days rather than sit in a static position and be dead....it's not like they were striking out in minus 20 degree weather to face the elements....
I agree with almost everything you said except the "scorn" part.  Those who stayed strictly to see what they could score in the aftermath, sure, but those who simply didn't evacuate because they ignored the warning, I can't say that I have scorn for them, but I'm not sure what I should call it.....wonder at how they could honestly think there wouldn't be flooding (even if the levees hadn't failed, all reports predicted massive flooding and damage that comes with ANY Category 3+ hurricane)?.....pity at the ignorance of the consequences of ignoring a mandatory evacuation order?.....apathy for those who claim they "didn't know"?

I live right in the heart of what is known in Illinois as "tornado alley".  When there is a bad storm, the kids and I head down into the basement until it's over.  Why?  Because it's the safest place in a storm and common sense tells me to.  I don't even wait to see if a tornado watch or warning is issued, I just do it and I certainly don't ignore the danger associated with a tornado.

I agree with almost everything you said except the "scorn" part.  Those who stayed strictly to see what they could score in the aftermath, sure, but those who simply didn't evacuate because they ignored the warning, I can't say that I have scorn for them, but I'm not sure what I should call it.....wonder at how they could honestly think there wouldn't be flooding (even if the levees hadn't failed, all reports predicted massive flooding and damage that comes with ANY Category 3+ hurricane)?.....pity at the ignorance of the consequences of ignoring a mandatory evacuation order?.....apathy for those who claim they "didn't know"?

I live right in the heart of what is known in Illinois as "tornado alley".  When there is a bad storm, the kids and I head down into the basement until it's over.  Why?  Because it's the safest place in a storm and common sense tells me to.  I don't even wait to see if a tornado watch or warning is issued, I just do it and I certainly don't ignore the danger associated with a tornado.


The only ones I have the scorn for are the ones who stayed behind in anticipation of the free shopping spree...nobody else..

it was totally drax's fault jaws turned on him. he really should have seen it coming. although... that whole daydream of a master race in orbit sorta seems like that's where the conservatives are headed. :P after enough natural disasters happen that are the fault of the people victimized by the disasters that's gonna be about the only thing left to go. i have to admit i was surprised how easily the conservatives in government were willing to give up on new orleans, which was a wonderful city, just because it's under sea level. just about everyplace in america has some prospective disaster looming over it -- like california, the people who live in tornado alley, heck, here in washington we get to worry about suitcase nukes and dirty bombs. if one goes off here, it'll be my fault i didn't leave, plainly. ::) but the point is, just about everyplace is like that in some way.
I just realized why Ann Coulter isn't married.  She's holding out for Drax; she wants to be Mrs. Drax!  I'm all for letting the right-wing set up its own space colony.  If they're all up running Martian mineral mines they won't be around to trash what's left of this planet!  The government isn't abandoning New Orleans, it is redesignating New Orleans.  It's no longer a the city for poor black citizens that gave us Louis Armstrong, it's the city for rich white tourists that gave us "Show us your t*ts!"
You know what those FEMA trailers full of formaldehyde are?  Coffins!

THERE ARE NO EASY ANSWERS.

Basically, it's politics.  Sell easy answers to difficult questions.  If there is no easy answer, pretend there is and ignore the real question.  What do we do about poverty and racism in America?  Lyndon Johnson's easy answer was an advanced welfare state.  This did stop people from going hungry and cold, but it did not addres the core of the problem.  Ronald Reagan's easy answer was "the magic of the marketplace."  This not only didn't address the core of the problem, it led to people going hungry and cold once again.  Addresssing the core of the problem leads inevitably to a state of democratic socialism, which makes neither the Right nor the Left happy.  It's too damn hard to figure out.  Look at healthcare.  There are no easy answers and yet we must do something about it...but this is veering into a screed on general economics.

anyway, hindsight is 20/20 and people can say somehow nagin knew for a fact that the levees would fail but i remember at the time the reports i read were much more ambiguous -- katrina hit land as a cat 4 and a lot of reports i was reading in the news right up until the levee broke were saying it wasn't going to turn out nearly as bad as people thought. who was it who said, "we dodged a bullet"? so no, the people in NO didn't KNOW the levees would break any more than the rest of us did.

Corruption.  Louisiana politics are notoriously corrupt.  People thought it was quaint.  Now we see why it ain't quaint.  I don't care what the party affiliation or the skin color of the politician is; corruption results in a government unable to respond to the needs of the people.  The New Orleans housing projects could be ignored....the aftermath of Katrina could not.


I'm not seeing in any of my posts where I said ALL that stayed behind looted and rioted.  I'm speculating that a select few(or few dozen, or few hundred as the case may be) just might have stayed and tried to ride out the storm in anticipation of the looting they could do during the chaos that ensued.

If a looter was caught carrying out a case of bottled water, or formula for an infant, thats what I'd call an acceptable (although still wrong) activity.  However, carrying off TV's, stereos and the like are hardly what anybody could misconstrue as a necessity for survival in an instance such as the Katrina aftermath, no??  It DID happen there in N.O., and it's pretty well documented.
Yes, the infrastructure was knocked out.  I think it was the right thing to do for people to take the necessities for their families--food, water, formula, diapers, toileteries, fuel, and batteries.  I don't think that was wrong at all under the circumstances.  I do say grabbing TV sets, video games, and liquor was unequivocally wrong, and silly to boot.  Ever try to haul a 21" TV through water waist deep?  At the same time, I did not expect anything different.  You get impoverished people who are bewildered, disoriented, shocked, and angry, and it's a recipe for all sorts of crazy behavior.  It doesn't mean it's right, it's just the way it goes. 



Another case in point:  when the big ice storm hit here in 1998, and the big blizzard of 77 and the next in 78 hit here, there was no looting, no rioting, even though all public services were pretty much destroyed, and many locations were without power for 28-35 days, no travel (via normal means, much as in N.O.)was possible on the roads, businesses were closed indefinitely, etc.

We won't even consider the fact that the blizzards of 77 and 78 encompassed enough square miles to drop 100-200 New Orleans sized cities into, nor the fact the the ice storm encompassed a half dozen counties in upstate NY (one of these, St. Lawrence county, 2,685.6 Sq Miles, the largest county east of the Mississippi river) was completely shut down.  There was no place for the people to go up here, the devastation was too widespread to run and relocate.

For the people of N.O. that evacuated, bravo.  For the ones who helped their elderly and infirm neighbors, big kudos.  For those that risked their own lives to help out their fellow man, ditto.  For those who stayed behind for whatever devious means and intents ( and we all know there had to be some), I have nothing but scorn.....

As far as the argument that they had no means of evacuating, nor of having anyplace to go, I'd much rather be walking to nowhere and live exposed to the elements for a few days rather than sit in a static position and be dead....it's not like they were striking out in minus 20 degree weather to face the elements....

I remember all those snowstorms.  Those would have been the chilliest riots ever! 

There racial discrimination in blizzard response was minimal and not nearly so stark as it was with Katrina. 

In those storms some dwellings were destroyed, especially in the Blizzard of '78.  However, most structures suffered repairable problems, such as burst pipes and roof damage.  Flooding is generally worse than snowdrift.  The winds disproportionately damaged single family dwellings and homes along the coasts, which were for the most part inhabited by wealthier white people.

This is not to diminish the severity of the great blizzards, just to say that it's different.

I remember all those snowstorms.  Those would have been the chilliest riots ever! 




I was thinking the same thing.  Couldn't resist a smirk.  ::)

I just realized why Ann Coulter isn't married.  She's holding out for Drax; she wants to be Mrs. Drax!  I'm all for letting the right-wing set up its own space colony.  If they're all up running Martian mineral mines they won't be around to trash what's left of this planet!  The government isn't abandoning New Orleans, it is redesignating New Orleans.  It's no longer a the city for poor black citizens that gave us Louis Armstrong, it's the city for rich white tourists that gave us "Show us your t*ts!"
You know what those FEMA trailers full of formaldehyde are?  Coffins!

ann coulter is way uglier than jaws' girlfriend was in moonraker. i was always amused (i've seen that movie about 100 trillion times  :-[) that she was this total swimsuit model with cokebottle glasses and goofy braids to indicate that she was supposed to be somehow unattractive. you see that trick a lot in hollywood, actually, where actual unattractive people are not permitted to appear, but must be portrayed by method-acting attractive people.  ;D but that's a matter for another thread.

one of my favorite movies of all time, a little quirky number called "tribulation 99," is totally about a right-wing paranoid plot that ends up with a bunch of john birchers using a bunch of spaceships to fly themselves to mars so they can escape the teeming hordes of appeasers, communists, and poor people.

i guess insofar as the right has been so ready to give up on new orleans, it does make me wonder how much american soil they're willing to abandon to disasters without a fight. the aforementioned example of earthquakes in california -- which, of course, are inevitable someday --
conservatives are rather famously not fond of the "people's republic of california" and one does wonder if they'll abandon it in the same fashion. i dunno, from where i'm sitting there do seem to be tough times ahead and i have to admit to being quite alarmed at the willingness of the right wing in government to fail to address problems and then come up with some fast talk to explain why they weren't SUPPOSED to do anything about them. it seems a decade or two more of that and we're likely not to have much of a country left. and what of the constant conservative claim that they love america more than the rest of us? why, if that's the case, are they so quick to leave such large swaths of it to elemental ruin? it confuses me; what brand of patriotism is this, exactly? ???

my dad has been in several bad hurricanes because he refuses to evacuate.
later, he and other people he knows try to demand money from the local government for repairs.
but who do you sue when an acto of god occurs?
mother nature?
if he dies I bet the family gets nothing. 
Im worried about his stupidity and gall.

Make sure you check the "Act of God" clause in your insurance policies :P