Everyone knows that health care in the U.S. sucks the big one. There is an on-going debate about having a single payer like Canada & England but the opponents tell of horror stories like the long waits, etc. etc. I would like to hear from our friends to the north & across the pond-as well as those down under and in other parts of the world, how do you like your health care system? What is good about it & what is bad? Please enlighten us with your experience-the good & the bad. Give us an unbiased assessment, please. 



Cat

Everyone knows that health care in the U.S. sucks the big one. There is an on-going debate about having a single payer like Canada & England but the opponents tell of horror stories like the long waits, etc. etc. I would like to hear from our friends to the north & across the pond-as well as those down under and in other parts of the world, how do you like your health care system? What is good about it & what is bad? Please enlighten us with your experience-the good & the bad. Give us an unbiased assessment, please. 


Why not ask people that live in the US?  I know that Oregon already has such a system in place.

In another forum people were listing their favorite states.  While I have lived in Oregon, one of the reasons why I did not list it is the "Big Brotheritus" of the state.  The health care is free, but it killed my grandfather, and almost killed my father.  Think of the VA, but everybody forced to use it.

Having used both the UK and US health care systems, I will say this. In Britain the National Health service is poor.. very poor.. BUT! You will be seen and you won't be made destitute.

Works out like this, the service in the UK is bad, the service in the US is criminal.

Having used both the UK and US health care systems, I will say this. In Britain the National Health service is poor.. very poor.. BUT! You will be seen and you won't be made destitute.

Works out like this, the service in the UK is bad, the service in the US is criminal.



What are some of YOUR experiences with the health care in the U.K.? It's easy to say that it is bad but what makes it bad?



Cat

What are some of YOUR experiences with the health care in the U.K.? It's easy to say that it is bad but what makes it bad?



Cat


Waiting 10 - 12 - 14 hours for very simple problems.

Waiting 3 weeks to see a specialist when I needed surgery within about a week.

Having approx 2 minutes with the Doctor because the Doctors offices are so over-crowded.

My Mother had to pay about $15,000 to have back surgery privately because the NHS waiting list was over a year.. she couldn't actually walk.. or sit.

It's pretty decent over here..

Waiting 10 - 12 - 14 hours for very simple problems.

Waiting 3 weeks to see a specialist when I needed surgery within about a week.

Having approx 2 minutes with the Doctor because the Doctors offices are so over-crowded.

My Mother had to pay about $15,000 to have back surgery privately because the NHS waiting list was over a year.. she couldn't actually walk.. or sit.


Thing is..

It's s**t.. but it's there.

If you're gushing blood, you will be seen straight away. If you have cancer, you will be treated. Essentially the way the NHS works is that if you're going to die, they will do everything possible to save you, otherwise the general response is "Oh piss off, you'll survive." of course, a lot of that comes down to where you live. The doctors and hospital facilities are different around the country, live in one area and they might sort out your hip replacement in just a few weeks, live somewhere else and it might be two years.

Also, as the NHS is taxed more and more, it becomes more and more privatized, no such thing as NHS dentistry anymore.. well, there is, but you have to go to the hospital and wait around 3 months for an appointment.

Instead of seeing the problems of other health care systems and saying, "We can do better!"  We roll over and let the Republicans tell us our government can't do anything.

If we beat the Nazis and went to the moon, we can build the best health care system in the world. 
If we had the social attitudes we have now in the middle of last century, Hitler would have won.

The NHS in the UK is patchy: some places are far better run than others.  Where I live (covered by the Bucks, Herts and Beds trust - if that's not appropriate, what is?), it's pretty good; though recently Wycombe's A&E departments have been closed so you'll have a 15-mile hike to the nearest one (which was underwater at one point this week... one thing that could *never* happen to Wycombe hospital, unless the floodwater hit twenty metres)

Thatcher's government screwed up the NHS big-time: splitting up an organization in order to introduce competition, based on the ideology that competition works for business therefore it will work for hospitals, too.  Thing is, when you have a failing business, it folds hence the ones that survive are the efficient ones; you can't get away with closing inefficient hospitals... so the whole premise is flawed.

Blair didn't really help matters: he's poured money in at an ever-increasing rate, but... (anecdote alert) - a doctor friend of mine told me his department was being allocated an extra half a million to spend.  To help them identify best use of the money, three (business, not medical) consultants were on-site for eighteen months: total cost just under quarter of a mill.  If that has been repeated throughout, most of the spending increases ain't helping, either.

The other idealogical idiocy currently screwing things up for the NHS at the moment is "choice" - a mantra repeated ad nauseam by Labour ministers.  Choice means a patient (sorry, "customer") based on information they don't understand deciding they should be treated at one hospital rather than another (in practise a lot of GPs make the decisions, but many prefer to pass the buck to the patient to avoid liability).  So you get popular hospitals being over-subscribed and people threatening to sue because they're not getting the treatment they think they deserve, and other hospitals losing money hand over fist 'cause they're not getting enough people through the door, and having to lay off staff.  The imbalance this causes means that you have a health secretary seeing figures showing how wonderful the best are, and thousands of doctors and nurses losing their jobs through no fault of their own.

The NHS in the UK used to be the most efficiently-run health delivery service in the world, by quite a large margin.  Today, it uses more money on administration and failed IT systems than it does providing healthcare. (And don't get me started on the failed IT systems...)

The NHS in the UK is patchy: some places are far better run than others.  Where I live (covered by the Bucks, Herts and Beds trust - if that's not appropriate, what is?), it's pretty good; though recently Wycombe's A&E departments have been closed so you'll have a 15-mile hike to the nearest one (which was underwater at one point this week... one thing that could *never* happen to Wycombe hospital, unless the floodwater hit twenty metres)

Thatcher's government screwed up the NHS big-time: splitting up an organization in order to introduce competition, based on the ideology that competition works for business therefore it will work for hospitals, too.  Thing is, when you have a failing business, it folds hence the ones that survive are the efficient ones; you can't get away with closing inefficient hospitals... so the whole premise is flawed.

Blair didn't really help matters: he's poured money in at an ever-increasing rate, but... (anecdote alert) - a doctor friend of mine told me his department was being allocated an extra half a million to spend.  To help them identify best use of the money, three (business, not medical) consultants were on-site for eighteen months: total cost just under quarter of a mill.  If that has been repeated throughout, most of the spending increases ain't helping, either.

The other idealogical idiocy currently screwing things up for the NHS at the moment is "choice" - a mantra repeated ad nauseam by Labour ministers.  Choice means a patient (sorry, "customer") based on information they don't understand deciding they should be treated at one hospital rather than another (in practise a lot of GPs make the decisions, but many prefer to pass the buck to the patient to avoid liability).  So you get popular hospitals being over-subscribed and people threatening to sue because they're not getting the treatment they think they deserve, and other hospitals losing money hand over fist 'cause they're not getting enough people through the door, and having to lay off staff.  The imbalance this causes means that you have a health secretary seeing figures showing how wonderful the best are, and thousands of doctors and nurses losing their jobs through no fault of their own.

The NHS in the UK used to be the most efficiently-run health delivery service in the world, by quite a large margin.  Today, it uses more money on administration and failed IT systems than it does providing healthcare. (And don't get me started on the failed IT systems...)


This is a large part of the problem. I tend to be Mr. Libertarian in regards to most Government workings, but Healthcare quite literally is a matter of life and death.. and if it takes total Government intervention to make it work than that is what's required. Problem is, it's dubious if even that would work..now. It did 50 years ago when the population was a quarter of what it was and the costs were a tenth.
But I digress. You've pointed out several of the critical flaws with the NHS, as well as the main one I was getting at, if something is non life-threatening then you're on your own pal. Dosen't matter if you can or can't work, or if you're in ridiculous pain "Oh, not gushing blood, sorry, 2 year waiting list."

Oh.. and very lucky for you Buckinghamshire, I was in Leicestershire and it was basically for the whole of the East Midlands, most of the Queens is Private now and so people from Derby, Coventry, Nottingham etc were all sent to the Royal.

In Brazil we're pretty much at the same level as Europe (or at least from what i've seen in France,Spain and Portugal) the public health system (SUS) works relatively well when it comes to treat life or death diseases,but you can wait ages for a simple ophthalmology appointment. Things are a lot better now though,i remember as a kid i used to go to the emergency room a lot,and i would wait more than half a day just to be seen by the doctor,around 3 weeks ago i had to go to the hospital and waited less than 2 hours. And as soon as i was diagnosed,i was immediately checked by a specialist.

People who can afford it,have private healthcare,but when it comes to major health conditions they're getting the same exact treatment we have with SUS.Plus all the best doctors work at the public hospitals,they sometimes lack the top of the notch equipment but they make up for it in knowledge and good care.

Our system also works really well when it comes to provide distribution of medicines,for instance AIDS patients have access to antiretroviral drug treatment for free.

Thanks everyone for sharing with me-but please keep it coming. I am getting quite an education on the different health care systems-which is why I started this thread.



Cat

Thanks everyone for sharing with me-but please keep it coming. I am getting quite an education on the different health care systems-which is why I started this thread.


What people in here said about health care in the UK is pretty similar to how it is in Oregon.

My grandfather started to get sick, loosing weight and having more and more problems breathing.  He would go to the doctor, and they would send him for chest X-rays.  Since they showed clear, they would simply give him antibiotics and send him home.  This went on for 3 months, and basically they would tell him it would get better.

Finally my dad had enough.  I went and picked him up (against the adivce of his doctor) and brought him down to California.  Within 48 hours of checking into the hospital, they had a diagnosis: a fungas based lung infection.  Something that none of the doctors in Oregon dectected, and none of their medications would do anything about.  My grandfather was better within 2 weeks, and was strong enough to go home within a month.

2 years later, he started to have the same problem.  They told the doctor about the previous problem, and the doctor insisted that this was not the case this time.  Well, within a week my grandfather was dead.  And what a surprise, the autopsy showed that he indeed died of pulmonary failure, due to a fungas infection.

My dad moved to Oregon several years later to help take care of his mother (she had a stroke).  After about a year and a half, he had a major heart attack.  He spent over an hour waiting in the emergency room before they would even see him, and almost 3 hours until they started to give him blood thinners.  My dad was only 45 at the time, and is now on total dissability.  Formerly an avid skiier and bowler, he has lost almost all of his strength on his right side.  He still lives in Oregon, but makes a 3 hour drive to Washington for medical care.

A lot of people do not seem to realize that in the US, trauma and critical care is available free of charge.  Hospitals are not allowed to turn people away, reguardless of ability to pay.  And most states (and even some local governments) have low or no cost medical available on an "Ability to pay" basis.  I know that California has such a system (MediCal), that will cover everything from teeth cleaning to open heart surgery.

Oregon does have free medical.  And a large number of people there travel to Washington, Idaho, and California for medical care.  When I was last in Oregon (Portland), there were the usual TV commercials for doctors.  Except that they were all advertising treatment in Vancouver Washington.  It rather reminded me of my trip to Buffalo, in which there were loads of medical centers advertising in Canada for patients.

Thatcher's government screwed up the NHS big-time: splitting up an organization in order to introduce competition, based on the ideology that competition works for business therefore it will work for hospitals, too.  Thing is, when you have a failing business, it folds hence the ones that survive are the efficient ones; you can't get away with closing inefficient hospitals... so the whole premise is flawed.


One of the people who showed Reagan the way was Maggie.  That was the conservative mantra then, and it still is now: "Run it like a business, run it like a business..."
Corporations appear more efficient because they run the U.S. government and use the taxpayers as a dumping ground for all their failures. 

Anyay, this is about healthcare outside the U.S. 

Michael Moore boiled down his movie to two hours to make the most salient points, but in doing so, he left out the any discussion of the serious problems other healthcare systems face.  In fact, if you didn't know any better, Moore made healthcare in the other countries seem utopian.  There will always be problems.  Every system has drawbacks.  It's just that the U.S. has more drawbacks than all the others!

BTW, I wouldn't have a problem waiting thee months for dental work.  Why?  I have to do that anyway.  Even with "dental insurance," I still can't afford the outrageous co-pays for the crowns and all the root canal work I need.  So I have to wait....and then fork over a ghastly sum for the privilege of keeping my natural teeth!

Remember, when the American media discusses healthcare, it's always from the point of view of business execs and celebrity journalists who earn over $200 K a year, have the best plans you can buy, and don't have to worry about stashing money away for root canals!
::)

A lot of people do not seem to realize that in the US, trauma and critical care is available free of charge.  Hospitals are not allowed to turn people away, reguardless of ability to pay. 

Back when I was on the state medicaid program, Masshealth, I could go to the ER for free and get my check-ups and scrips for practically nothing.  That is, practically nothing out of my pocket.  But it wasn't free.  The taxpayers subsidized it, and what the state government wouldn't pay for, the hospital had to eat.  What this does is pit the population against one another.  That's why I'm for socialized medicine without income-based upgrades.  Those who could afford to opt out would resent those who could not. 

Same with education.  I meet perfectly nice people who bellyache about having to pay taxes to the public schools when they have no children in the system.  Hello?  It's called "civic duty."  It gets back to a fundamental question:
"We're all in this together."

or

"Every crumb for himself!"
:D

A lot of people do not seem to realize that in the US, trauma and critical care is available free of charge.  Hospitals are not allowed to turn people away, reguardless of ability to pay.  And most states (and even some local governments) have low or no cost medical available on an "Ability to pay" basis.  I know that California has such a system (MediCal), that will cover everything from teeth cleaning to open heart surgery.it's available, but not free of charge. i checked in with a kidney stone once (didn't know what it was, but it felt like mortal agony) and the treatment cost me somewhere between 4 and 6 grand. took about three hours, most of it was spent waiting. a friend of mine checked into a hospital with pneumonia, is going to be spending a few decades of her life paying off the bills, i imagine, they're charging her tens of thousands of dollars to treat her.

so yes, they can't turn you away and let you die, if they get caught doing it... incidentally, routinely, homeless people turn up on the streets in the republican Land of the Free wearing hospital gowns -- they just get kicked out of the emergency room once they decide you're obviously poor and they're sick of treating you -- THESE guys they probably wont charge because they know they'll never collect, but they most definitely will kick you out if they think they can get away with it... and if you're a regular bill-paying citizen who works for a living but can't afford health insurance, they WILL bleed you absolutely white. make no mistake -- if you're uninsured but billable and you wind up in an emergency room with a serious ailment, you WILL pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. period. the system runs on you, much like the republican tax system runs on the back of the lower middle and working classes.

it's available, but not free of charge. i checked in with a kidney stone once (didn't know what it was, but it felt like mortal agony) and the treatment cost me somewhere between 4 and 6 grand. took about three hours, most of it was spent waiting. a friend of mine checked into a hospital with pneumonia, is going to be spending a few decades of her life paying off the bills, i imagine, they're charging her tens of thousands of dollars to treat her.

so yes, they can't turn you away and let you die, if they get caught doing it... incidentally, routinely, homeless people turn up on the streets in the republican Land of the Free wearing hospital gowns -- they just get kicked out of the emergency room once they decide you're obviously poor and they're sick of treating you -- THESE guys they probably wont charge because they know they'll never collect, but they most definitely will kick you out if they think they can get away with it... and if you're a regular bill-paying citizen who works for a living but can't afford health insurance, they WILL bleed you absolutely white. make no mistake -- if you're uninsured but billable and you wind up in an emergency room with a serious ailment, you WILL pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. period. the system runs on you, much like the republican tax system runs on the back of the lower middle and working classes.


This is so very true.

If you have more than about $10 to your name.. you are going to be f**ked.. so hard.. and so fast, you won't even know it until the bill drops out of your ass.

it's available, but not free of charge. i checked in with a kidney stone once (didn't know what it was, but it felt like mortal agony) and the treatment cost me somewhere between 4 and 6 grand. took about three hours, most of it was spent waiting. a friend of mine checked into a hospital with pneumonia, is going to be spending a few decades of her life paying off the bills, i imagine, they're charging her tens of thousands of dollars to treat her.

so yes, they can't turn you away and let you die, if they get caught doing it... incidentally, routinely, homeless people turn up on the streets in the republican Land of the Free wearing hospital gowns -- they just get kicked out of the emergency room once they decide you're obviously poor and they're sick of treating you -- THESE guys they probably wont charge because they know they'll never collect, but they most definitely will kick you out if they think they can get away with it... and if you're a regular bill-paying citizen who works for a living but can't afford health insurance, they WILL bleed you absolutely white. make no mistake -- if you're uninsured but billable and you wind up in an emergency room with a serious ailment, you WILL pay thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. period. the system runs on you, much like the republican tax system runs on the back of the lower middle and working classes.

Karma 1 +

This is so very true.

If you have more than about $10 to your name.. you are going to be f**ked.. so hard.. and so fast, you won't even know it until the bill drops out of your ass.

That's what I'm saying about pitting the people against one another.
There are a lot of people with incomes too high to qualify for medicaid and too low to afford health insurance.  The class war strategy the right-wing media has pushed is get the have-little to hate the have-nots, which leaves the rich and the powerful safe in their palaces.

One of the people who showed Reagan the way was Maggie.  That was the conservative mantra then, and it still is now: "Run it like a business, run it like a business..."
Corporations appear more efficient because they run the U.S. government and use the taxpayers as a dumping ground for all their failures. 

Anyay, this is about healthcare outside the U.S. 

Michael Moore boiled down his movie to two hours to make the most salient points, but in doing so, he left out the any discussion of the serious problems other healthcare systems face.  In fact, if you didn't know any better, Moore made healthcare in the other countries seem utopian.  There will always be problems.  Every system has drawbacks.  It's just that the U.S. has more drawbacks than all the others!

BTW, I wouldn't have a problem waiting thee months for dental work.  Why?  I have to do that anyway.  Even with "dental insurance," I still can't afford the outrageous co-pays for the crowns and all the root canal work I need.  So I have to wait....and then fork over a ghastly sum for the privilege of keeping my natural teeth!

Remember, when the American media discusses healthcare, it's always from the point of view of business execs and celebrity journalists who earn over $200 K a year, have the best plans you can buy, and don't have to worry about stashing money away for root canals!
::)


Some of you have the wrong insurance carrier then.

I was hospitalized back in 1994, one full week of care, in a private room, this included the emergency room visit also, and my total cost for the stay was 28 bucks for my phone and TV, everything else was paid for through my bi-weekly payment of around 30 bucks.  NO co-pay.

My dental plan was ridiculously cheap, bi weekly in the neighborhood of 12 bucks, walk in for whatever needed doing, walk out and be covered....I'm pretty sure my co-pay was 5% on dental...

As far as this "civic duty" BS (that you mentioned, Max, and then deleted) I pay my school taxes because I have had kids go through the public schools and they've all now graduated.  But in the interest of civic duty, since we  all should pay to reap the reward then possibly we should reinstate the draft, since we ALL have a duty, right??

That's what I'm saying about pitting the people against one another.
There are a lot of people with incomes too high to qualify for medicaid and too low to afford health insurance.  The class war strategy the right-wing media has pushed is get the have-little to hate the have-nots, which leaves the rich and the powerful safe in their palaces.


See... you need to calm down.

There's no.. class warfare stratey Max.. seriously.. calm down.
There is blatant ignorance regarding the plight of those earning under $250K a year, that's true, that's a given.. seriously.. it's a given.. but.. much as I'd find it quite funny (although mildly disturbing) there's no skull & bones society sitting their plotting to kill off the middle classes.. they don't fear us.. because they know we all want what they have, and we just know, if we play our cards right we can get a piece of the pie.. and whilst we do it, they earn billions from us.

Health care in Canada is quite a regional affair. Canada does not have one health care system, it has at least thirteen. Every province and territory administers its own medicare scheme where all essential services are paid for with both federal and provincial dollars. Therefore, the level of service one receives is generally very good, but can vary quite dramatically from region to region. The big three cities: Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver, have the most difficulty because of the high population density they serve. Out of these, I have heard that Montréal is the worst. But even Mtl isn't that bad.

Your medium-size cities and your smaller communities get by exceptionally well.

You have heard your stories about long wait-times, but this only exists in certain problem areas where specialists or very expensive equipments are scarce (specifically, knee/hip replacements and certain radio photography devices). But these are mendable concerns.

Also, Canada's health care facilities and employees are not government employees like in many countries. They are run like private enterprises already, except they are usually non-profit oriented and they only bill one organisation (the provincial Ministry of Health).

If I were to fall sick or get hurt today in my town, I would have two options. If it were an emergency that couldn't wait, I would go to the ER at the hospital and be treated. If it weren't, I would make an appointment at the CLSC (in Québec, these are the local clinics) and probably see a doctor in about a week or less who would either fix my problem or refer me to a specialist. Seeing as how I live in a medium-sized city, I wouldn't have to wait too long for that unless it were something that required my going to a specialist in another, larger city like Quebec City. I may have to wait a bit, but I'll never be shafted with a savings-depleting bill I could never pay off. And I don't have to pay through the nose in insurance premiums either to an insurance company whose mission it is to screw me as much as they legally can out of all sorts of medical procedures they won't pay for, co-pays, benefit limits etc... In Canada, your health-care coverage doesn't stop at a $250,000 benefit or the like.

It does make life just that little bit easier in so many little ways as well.

If your wife gets preggers unexpectedly, for example, you can count "how am I going to pay for the hospital birth" off your list of concerns (notwithstanding all the other ones).

Some of you have the wrong insurance carrier then.
about a third of america apparently does, the wrong carrier or none at all.


pay my school taxes because I have had kids go through the public schools and they've all now graduated.  But in the interest of civic duty, since we  all should pay to reap the reward then possibly we should reinstate the draft, since we ALL have a duty, right??

careful what you wish for. a few more months of the republican war gone bad in iraq and they might HAVE to reinstate the draft just to come up with the warm bodies to keep throwing at the problem they’ve created.

vets get pretty lousy health care too, i was noticing, by the by.

I may have to wait a bit, but I'll never be shafted with a savings-depleting bill I could never pay off. And I don't have to pay through the nose in insurance premiums either to an insurance company whose mission it is to screw me as much as they legally can out of all sorts of medical procedures they won't pay for, co-pays, benefit limits etc... In Canada, your health-care coverage doesn't stop at a $250,000 benefit or the like.

It does make life just that little bit easier in so many little ways as well.

If your wife gets preggers unexpectedly, for example, you can count "how am I going to pay for the hospital birth" off your list of concerns (notwithstanding all the other ones).


Right.. and this is pretty much both sides of the coin. The Canadian system is superior to the NHS, it works better and there is less Federal intervention (and I'm not about to go down the anti-government route here, government needs to be involved, but let them take a backseat whenever possible) and thus less money sucking bureaucracy. Yes, you may have to wait and not receive instant help, but at the end of the day, you can wait.. in your house that you still own.. and watch your nice tv.. that you still own.. and laugh as your kids play with the toys you can still afford to buy them. The same scenario in the U.S is that, oh yes, you're very healthy, of course, you had to sell your house and car, can only afford a one room apartment in one of the less desirable areas of town and have to wait tables at "Tits & Grill" to make enough money to clothe your kids.

With the enormous health care infrastructure already in place in the U.S I think waiting times could well be even lower than in places like Canada and Germany (who have much, much healthier populations). Whilst we're off 'protecting our freedoms' in s**tholes like Iraq, maybe it's time to protect our lives here at home - i.e - by ensuring that we're not dieing off.

about a third of america apparently does, the wrong carrier or none at all.

vets get pretty lousy health care too, i was noticing, by the by.


And a lot of that is also the fault of the people involved.  I know that when I worked for Hughes-Boeing, I had health care available.  And in my department, less then 25% of the people choose to take advantage of it.  Most of them were young (25 and under), and felt that they did not need it.  They found they had better uses for the money, like partying and buying new toys.

The only ones that seemed to use it were either people like me with families, or the older employees.  And if you go to most 22 year olds, they would agree that spending $50-100 or so a month is a waste of money when you are young.

And yes, Vet health care is deplorable.  It is also Government run.  This is why I have such little faith in the Government running it for everybody else.  One of the worst things I could think of would be for the rest of the nation to suffer through the horrible care that I am supposed to be able to recieve.

And a lot of that is also the fault of the people involved.  I know that when I worked for Hughes-Boeing, I had health care available.  And in my department, less then 25% of the people choose to take advantage of it.  Most of them were young (25 and under), and felt that they did not need it.  They found they had better uses for the money, like partying and buying new toys.

The only ones that seemed to use it were either people like me with families, or the older employees.  And if you go to most 22 year olds, they would agree that spending $50-100 or so a month is a waste of money when you are young.

And yes, Vet health care is deplorable.  It is also Government run.  This is why I have such little faith in the Government running it for everybody else.  One of the worst things I could think of would be for the rest of the nation to suffer through the horrible care that I am supposed to be able to recieve.


Wow, you don't know anybody in their early 20's do you.

Hi, my names Davey and I don't have health insurance, much like the rest of my friends. Most of us are just old enough that we can't be claimed by parents any more.. and we're too young to be able to find jobs good enough to give a decent health insurance plan. Added to the crippling costs of pursuing further education and we're pretty f**ked.  :)

well, if you want a good example of government-run health care, the VA is probably a bad example, since it’s the army’s job to minimize expense and vets with PTSD are an embarrassment to the powers that be so there’s an incentive to sweep them under the rug that wouldn’t exist in a more general government-run (or at least aided) system.

if you want an example of what a privately run system would look like, though, the current american system probably IS a good example. it’s just hard to make treating sick people profitable, so the current for-profit system just doesn’t bother with it. that’s why if you want to live in a society where the sick aren’t typically ignored, you can’t privatize health care, not in my opinion. it would be like privatizing the highway system or privatizing prisons. it’s just really hard to make those sorts of things profitable and have them still work.

well, if you want a good example of government-run health care, the VA is probably a bad example, since it’s the army’s job to minimize expense and vets with PTSD are an embarrassment to the powers that be so there’s an incentive to sweep them under the rug that wouldn’t exist in a more general government-run (or at least aided) system.

if you want an example of what a privately run system would look like, though, the current american system probably IS a good example. it’s just hard to make treating sick people profitable, so the current for-profit system just doesn’t bother with it. that’s why if you want to live in a society where the sick aren’t typically ignored, you can’t privatize health care, not in my opinion. it would be like privatizing the highway system or privatizing prisons. it’s just really hard to make those sorts of things profitable and have them still work.



Exactly. Public works are not profitable, that's why they're ran by the government in the first place.

Wow, you don't know anybody in their early 20's do you.

Hi, my names Davey and I don't have health insurance, much like the rest of my friends. Most of us are just old enough that we can't be claimed by parents any more.. and we're too young to be able to find jobs good enough to give a decent health insurance plan. Added to the crippling costs of pursuing further education and we're pretty f**ked.  :)


It is true that most in that age group do not have it available.  But even among those that do, most do not choose to take advantage of it.  I guess I have been lucky in that I worked for several companies that offered it.  Heck, even the strip club I worked for offered health and dental coverage.  And most of the employees choose to not use it.  I was the only person there that took advantage of the dental program (which was pretty good).  And while the company I work for does not have medical coverage (with only 2 employees the premiums would be outrageous).  But ironically, the sister-business does offer it.  Of their 8 employees, only 2 use it.

The simple fact is that young people in good health really do not think about things like health or life insurance.  They are young, healthy, and in the prime of their lives.  It is rare for them to come down with cancer or other diseases, and they do not think about the effects if they were in an accident.  About the only job where I know of that has universal health and almost universal life insurance is the Military.  The health there is 100%, and the life insurance is so cheap that 99% of people use it.  Even those without a family often use it and either in the event donate it to charity, or give it to "war buddies".  I know of 4 guys who went to the gulf who pooled their $100,000 SGLI together.  If any of them had died, the others would have shared the money.  Thankfully, they all came home safely.

well, if you want a good example of government-run health care, the VA is probably a bad example, since it’s the army’s job to minimize expense and vets with PTSD are an embarrassment to the powers that be so there’s an incentive to sweep them under the rug that wouldn’t exist in a more general government-run (or at least aided) system.


But the Army (and the other services) do not run the VA.  The VA is a totally seperate department, which has no connection at all to the Military.

And in fact, the Military has what is undoubtedly the best health care in the world.  I know this because I was under it's care for many years.  They do not give a damn about how much something costs, their only goal is to treat people.  I know that after my accident, I had countless X-rays, 4 bone scans, and 3 MRIs.  I went to Physical Therapy 3 times a week for 2 years, and saw a specialist on a monthly basis.  I can't think of any civilian plan that would cover that much care without question.

In fact, when members of Congress, the President, high Government Officials and foreign Heads of State need health care, they most often turn to the US Navy.  Bathesda Naval Hospital is one of the best medical centers in the world, and that is where they all go to for treatment.

But the Army, Air Force, and Naval medical services are not the VA.  A comparison would probably be comparing a Cadillac to a Yugo.  Except that is being disrespectfull to Yugo, because at least they worked.

If "Universal Health" could be run like that of the Military, I would have no qualms about it's use.  But I would bet pennies to dollars that it would really turn out more like that of the VA.

But the Army (and the other services) do not run the VA.  The VA is a totally seperate department, which has no connection at all to the Military.

And in fact, the Military has what is undoubtedly the best health care in the world.  I know this because I was under it's care for many years.  They do not give a damn about how much something costs, their only goal is to treat people.  I know that after my accident, I had countless X-rays, 4 bone scans, and 3 MRIs.  I went to Physical Therapy 3 times a week for 2 years, and saw a specialist on a monthly basis.  I can't think of any civilian plan that would cover that much care without question.

In fact, when members of Congress, the President, high Government Officials and foreign Heads of State need health care, they most often turn to the US Navy.  Bathesda Naval Hospital is one of the best medical centers in the world, and that is where they all go to for treatment.

But the Army, Air Force, and Naval medical services are not the VA.  A comparison would probably be comparing a Cadillac to a Yugo.  Except that is being disrespectfull to Yugo, because at least they worked.

If "Universal Health" could be run like that of the Military, I would have no qualms about it's use.  But I would bet pennies to dollars that it would really turn out more like that of the VA.



The military DOES offer the best of care. And it is government run. But, that is because the military budget is probably the highest than any other department in the government. I'm sure the V.A. budget isn't even a 1/3 of what the military gets. It all boils down to $$$$$$. It really bothers me how insurance & pharmaceutical companies make profits-and a lot of it. Another thing that really bothers me is that some admin person probably sitting over in India can make a decision on what procedure can or can't be done on a patient here in the U.S. It really makes me ANGRY at the system in the country. And when we dare to look at other nations to see how they do it and maybe take what is best in those systems and improve what is not, the opponents scream "Socialism" because we all know how "evil" socialism is.  ::) ::)


That being said, now back to the topic. I would still love to hear from others OUTSIDE THE U.S.  what they think about their own system. What is good about it, and what is bad. Their personal experiences. Come on everyone, inquiring minds want to know.


Cat

But the Army (and the other services) do not run the VA.  The VA is a totally seperate department, which has no connection at all to the Military.yeah, i've heard that before. obviously they aren't part of the same bureaucracy per se but to say "the VA has no connection at all to the military" strikes me as false on its face. i'm sure the military finds ways to influence the VA so as to avoid undue taint on military efforts. one of the big embarrassments about the VA is the way it tends to highlight the mental and emotional impacts of combat. that’s a big reason, i think, why mental health treatment for vets is so substandard, because yes, medical care for those in the military with physical ailments is exemplary but when it comes to mental and emotional ailments it seems like everyone in the war bureaucracy -- whether the pentagon, the VA, or whoever -- wants to pretend that things like PTSD dont happen or are a figment of the sufferer’s imagination. why? because it’s a political embarrassment, and it makes wars harder to start and harder to sustain if the people who sign up for them know what they’re getting into -- that chances are the experience will traumatize them in some way, and that if they suffer emotional harm they probably wont be treated.

now if everyone knew that do you think as many people would sign up for the military? damn tootin. and is the war bureaucracy going to find a way to de-emphasize PTSD for just that reason? absolutely. and is that a big part of the reason why VA treatment for emotional disorders is so substandard? i happen to believe so, particulars about bureaucracy aside. it strikes me as implausible to think the miilitary wouldn’t find ways to influence the VA, i feel quite certain they have.

It is true that most in that age group do not have it available.  But even among those that do, most do not choose to take advantage of it.  I guess I have been lucky in that I worked for several companies that offered it.  Heck, even the strip club I worked for offered health and dental coverage.  And most of the employees choose to not use it.  I was the only person there that took advantage of the dental program (which was pretty good).  And while the company I work for does not have medical coverage (with only 2 employees the premiums would be outrageous).  But ironically, the sister-business does offer it.  Of their 8 employees, only 2 use it.

The simple fact is that young people in good health really do not think about things like health or life insurance.  They are young, healthy, and in the prime of their lives.  It is rare for them to come down with cancer or other diseases, and they do not think about the effects if they were in an accident.  About the only job where I know of that has universal health and almost universal life insurance is the Military.  The health there is 100%, and the life insurance is so cheap that 99% of people use it.  Even those without a family often use it and either in the event donate it to charity, or give it to "war buddies".  I know of 4 guys who went to the gulf who pooled their $100,000 SGLI together.  If any of them had died, the others would have shared the money.  Thankfully, they all came home safely.


What you have to remember is a lot of people my age live pay-check to pay-check.. hell.. a lot of people.. period, live pay-check to pay-check. All of a sudden subtracting $100 from that means serious detrimental harm.
Also, didn't you live out in California, the state there does offer a decent health care plan if I'm not mistaken?

It's a matter of priorities.  I have to live paycheck to paycheck too, but I make sure that one of my top priorities is to ensure that my family is medically insured.  Hurts like hell re: my wallet, but it's better than getting totally shafted...right now we're only partially shafted :D

Thank goodness for All-Kids...when we do get it.

It's a matter of priorities.  I have to live paycheck to paycheck too, but I make sure that one of my top priorities is to ensure that my family is medically insured.  Hurts like hell re: my wallet, but it's better than getting totally shafted...right now we're only partially shafted :D

Thank goodness for All-Kids...when we do get it.


Yes, A lot of it is priorities.  I'd be interested to see what the percentage of people are that do NOT have health insurance, but own all the toys available in todays world..you know, the big plasma TV's...the big SUV's they use for the daily trip to the supermarket instead of having an economical vehicle...stuff like that.  I'm sure that many people who cry about not being able to afford health insurance have toys they rather "wanted" instead of "needed"  Now I'm not saying all people are like that, and I'm sure there are many who do not have the toys and don't have insurance as well...but it would be unrealistic to think that it's not like the above in many cases....

Most of the people with the big SUVs and the mcmansions don't own them.  The bank does. 

You don't want to drive a car you can actually afford, do you?  People will think you're a loser!
:D

We're a nation of spenders not a nation of savers.  Spend all you have, and when that's all gone, borrow money and spend that too!  Then repeat the process!

However, I don't see healthcare as a consumer commodity.  Nobody should go broke trying to pay medical bills.

Most of the people with the big SUVs and the mcmansions don't own them.  The bank does. 

You don't want to drive a car you can actually afford, do you?  People will think you're a loser!
:D

We're a nation of spenders not a nation of savers.  Spend all you have, and when that's all gone, borrow money and spend that too!  Then repeat the process!

However, I don't see healthcare as a consumer commodity.  Nobody should go broke trying to pay medical bills.


Exactly, nobody should go broke trying to pay medical bills.  However, if they're driving and playing with the toys and hand wringing in the same breath about NOT having medical insurance "because they can't afford it", then it's not a question of IF insurance is available, it's a question of whether they're smart enough to worry about their health before impressing the Joneses...

It's not a commodity, but necessity should prevail before foolish pleasures......and in many cases it does not.

Once again, why should I feel sorry for the Chuck that is in debt up to his ears in SUV's and McMansions he doesn't need and he cries about lack of insurance....

Exactly, nobody should go broke trying to pay medical bills.  However, if they're driving and playing with the toys and hand wringing in the same breath about NOT having medical insurance "because they can't afford it", then it's not a question of IF insurance is available, it's a question of whether they're smart enough to worry about their health before impressing the Joneses...

It's not a commodity, but necessity should prevail before foolish pleasures......and in many cases it does not.

Once again, why should I feel sorry for the Chuck that is in debt up to his ears in SUV's and McMansions he doesn't need and he cries about lack of insurance....

I'm not asking anybody to "feel sorry" for anybody else.  I'm talking about public health, not "feeling sorry."  But I know what you're saying.  If a person chooses a mcmansion over health insurance for his family, he's an idiot.  I can't imagine that's very common, however.  It does happen to people who were living the good life and then hit hard times.  They had great health insurance when they took out the mortgage on the mcmansion, but then dad's job got cut and finding another to support the good life ain't easy.  The health insurance may be gone...but the mcmansion, the two luxury SUVs, the tuition for the uppity schools, and stay-at-home motherhood are not far behind!
:o

Admittedly.. if I didn't live in the state of Illinois (Where the Governor does actually give a s**t).. and if I didn't have the military safety net (If.. for instance.. my head fell off, I could go to a military hospital) I would probably scrimp and save a little more and get myself in to a health insurance plan.. as it is, having lived under the NHS I can deal with minor issues and as I've said, anything seriously life-threatening is covered for a couple more years, so.. I will concede that point.

Davey makes the NHS sound truly horrendous.  In my experience it isn't as bad as he makes out.

If I am ill I can call my doctor and can be seen the same day if necessary, certainly within the week.  If I need medicine I get the prescription straight away and pay a relatively small amount (£6.85) per item.  Certain long term illnesses that need regular medication are exempt from paying (e.g. diabetes, epilepsy, hypothyroidism) and you can also get a voucher to reduce the cost of your prescription if you are on regular medication that isn't exempt.

If it is an emergency I can go straight to hospital (or maybe the local walk in centre if I need stitches for example).  Yes the waiting times can seem long there but mainly because the walking wounded often don't see the serious cases arrived by ambulance.

Thankfully I personally haven't had a major illness since having my appendix out about 25 years ago but my family has and I've never heard of them having problems with treatment or diagnosis (apart from my mum.  the doctor couldn't decide if she had lupus or reynaud's disease - turns out she had both!)  My father has had a triple by-pass and now has a defibrillator fitted, my mother-in-law has had both hips replaced and surgery for suspected bowel cancer within a week of visiting her doctor with symptoms.

Davey makes the NHS sound truly horrendous.  In my experience it isn't as bad as he makes out.

If I am ill I can call my doctor and can be seen the same day if necessary, certainly within the week.  If I need medicine I get the prescription straight away and pay a relatively small amount (£6.85) per item.  Certain long term illnesses that need regular medication are exempt from paying (e.g. diabetes, epilepsy, hypothyroidism) and you can also get a voucher to reduce the cost of your prescription if you are on regular medication that isn't exempt.

If it is an emergency I can go straight to hospital (or maybe the local walk in centre if I need stitches for example).  Yes the waiting times can seem long there but mainly because the walking wounded often don't see the serious cases arrived by ambulance.

Thankfully I personally haven't had a major illness since having my appendix out about 25 years ago but my family has and I've never heard of them having problems with treatment or diagnosis (apart from my mum.  the doctor couldn't decide if she had lupus or reynaud's disease - turns out she had both!)  My father has had a triple by-pass and now has a defibrillator fitted, my mother-in-law has had both hips replaced and surgery for suspected bowel cancer within a week of visiting her doctor with symptoms.


You've pretty much highlighted what I was saying. The NHS is great if you have something seriously wrong with you, say..they think you'll have a heart attack, go to A&E and mention you're having trouble breathing or stabbing pains in the arm and they'll have you seen so quickly your head will spin.
If you can get an appointment with a Doctor the same day then you're one of the lucky ones, in my experience it was usually the same time one week later, if it was an emergency they'd do one on the day.. but you don't go to the Doctor if it's an emergency do you.

I went to a local center before, when I needed stitches.. I was told there was nobody there who could do it.  ;D Went home and got my Dad to do it, easy.

Prescriptions are very cheap and there's none of this ridiculous prescription drug advertising on tv (which f**king sickens me) that's pretty much a constant.

As I've been saying, the NHS really falls flat on it's face when you have a major problem that isn't life threatening, if this is the case, you can wait months if not years for treatment. It's not as bad as being uninsured that's for sure, I'd much rather have the NHS than the current U.S Healthcare system, just trying to point out it's shortcomings for those who've never used it.

Everyone knows that health care in the U.S. sucks the big one. There is an on-going debate about having a single payer like Canada & England but the opponents tell of horror stories like the long waits, etc. etc. I would like to hear from our friends to the north & across the pond-as well as those down under and in other parts of the world, how do you like your health care system? What is good about it & what is bad? Please enlighten us with your experience-the good & the bad. Give us an unbiased assessment, please. 

Cat


Unbiased yet from personal experience...now there's a contradictio in terminis. ;)

And as much as I would like to comment on the subject, I've nothing much to say. :-\\ Our current health care system seems to be working alright, from what I've seen of it... If I need a doctor/dentist, I can see one (within reasonable time). There are waiting lists if you need to undergo surgery of course, but I've no idea how long exactly you'll have to wait.
I know that emergency services should arrive at your house within 15 minutes after the initial call, and as far as I know that's usually the case.
I've never had any problems with health care, but then I've never really needed it badly too.

Our current health care system was made conclusive in 2006. Until then, there were two systems. This takes some explaining - I hope I can make things clear.

Old system:
If your annual income did not exceed a specific threshold (approx. 30,000 euro), you'd fall under the "Ziekenfondswet" (Health Care Act). Premiums for this Act would be deducted from your income and handed over to the national government, thus financing the very basics of health care. This premium would never exceed a maximum.
In addition to this, you could apply for additional health care insurance via (private) health care insurance companies. Of course, premiums for this type of care would vary (no maximum), depending on the company and additional care you'd want.

If your annual income did exceed the threshold, you'd be on your own (basically). You'd have to find a private health insurance company to insure all of your health care. And since those private companies need to make money, this would cost you dearly. (Again, no maximum on the premiums charged)

Under the old system, health care insurance was an option, not an obligation.



New system:
First of all, health care insurance is now an obligation. Anyone with a social security number is automatically insured.

Premiums for the new Health Insurance Act comprise of two elements: the so-called "Basispremie", and an income-related element.
The "Basispremie" is charged by a health insurance company of your own choice, and varies from company to company (no maximum). Going cheap doesn't always mean you get a bargain, though...
The income-related element is 6.5% (4.4% for the elderly, disabled and unemployed) of your annual income, with a maximum of 1,950 euro (2006). This premium is charged by the Tax Office.

For those with an annual income up to approx. 30,000 euros, the new system results in (much) higher premiums.
In order to compensate for this, the government has created the Health Insurance Allowance. You have to apply for the Allowance in order to receive it.  The maximum allowance is currently set at 1,150 euros per year.


Both under the old and the new system, most health related costs would be compensated by your (additional) health insurance. This all depends on your own preferences though - there's a wide variety of policies, terms and companies.
If the health insurance company doesn't (fully) compensate, there's always a possibilty of tax deductability. This within certain limits, and only if a specific threshold is exceeded.

Well, I hope that's clear.

Unbiased yet from personal experience...now there's a contradictio in terminis. ;)

And as much as I would like to comment on the subject, I've nothing much to say. :-\\ Our current health care system seems to be working alright, from what I've seen of it... If I need a doctor/dentist, I can see one (within reasonable time). There are waiting lists if you need to undergo surgery of course, but I've no idea how long exactly you'll have to wait.
I know that emergency services should arrive at your house within 15 minutes after the initial call, and as far as I know that's usually the case.
I've never had any problems with health care, but then I've never really needed it badly too.

Our current health care system was made conclusive in 2006. Until then, there were two systems. This takes some explaining - I hope I can make things clear.

Old system:
If your annual income did not exceed a specific threshold (approx. 30,000 euro), you'd fall under the "Ziekenfondswet" (Health Care Act). Premiums for this Act would be deducted from your income and handed over to the national government, thus financing the very basics of health care. This premium would never exceed a maximum.
In addition to this, you could apply for additional health care insurance via (private) health care insurance companies. Of course, premiums for this type of care would vary (no maximum), depending on the company and additional care you'd want.

If your annual income did exceed the threshold, you'd be on your own (basically). You'd have to find a private health insurance company to insure all of your health care. And since those private companies need to make money, this would cost you dearly. (Again, no maximum on the premiums charged)

Under the old system, health care insurance was an option, not an obligation.



New system:
First of all, health care insurance is now an obligation. Anyone with a social security number is automatically insured.

Premiums for the new Health Insurance Act comprise of two elements: the so-called "Basispremie", and an income-related element.
The "Basispremie" is charged by a health insurance company of your own choice, and varies from company to company (no maximum). Going cheap doesn't always mean you get a bargain, though...
The income-related element is 6.5% (4.4% for the elderly, disabled and unemployed) of your annual income, with a maximum of 1,950 euro (2006). This premium is charged by the Tax Office.

For those with an annual income up to approx. 30,000 euros, the new system results in (much) higher premiums.
In order to compensate for this, the government has created the Health Insurance Allowance. You have to apply for the Allowance in order to receive it.  The maximum allowance is currently set at 1,150 euros per year.


Both under the old and the new system, most health related costs would be compensated by your (additional) health insurance. This all depends on your own preferences though - there's a wide variety of policies, terms and companies.
If the health insurance company doesn't (fully) compensate, there's always a possibilty of tax deductability. This within certain limits, and only if a specific threshold is exceeded.

Well, I hope that's clear.


This is far more similar to the French system than the English (I don't say British because let's face it, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland don't even pay for themselves) or German systems. I always thought the Dutch system was more similar to the German SPC but I guess not. Shows what I know.

This is far more similar to the French system than the English (I don't say British because let's face it, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland don't even pay for themselves)
Do you mean because their economies are so much smaller than England's?  I'm not sure I understand.

Do you mean because their economies are so much smaller than England's?  I'm not sure I understand.


Scotland and Northern Ireland are drains on the English economy. Because the English taxpayer has to support them. Admittedly, as far as I'm aware Wales is actually more or less self-sufficient, but Scotland is simply an ugly burden. One main reason I'm strongly in favor of devolution, especially because the North sea Oil fields are all owned by English, Dutch or American companies.

Scotland and Northern Ireland are drains on the English economy. Because the English taxpayer has to support them. Admittedly, as far as I'm aware Wales is actually more or less self-sufficient, but Scotland is simply an ugly burden. One main reason I'm strongly in favor of devolution, especially because the North sea Oil fields are all owned by English, Dutch or American companies.

Hey, it's like "Blue America" subsidizes "Red America," and guess who hates the government more!
::)

Hey, it's like "Blue America" subsidizes "Red America," and guess who hates the government more!
::)


Pretty much, except they love the Government, because although there are a few morons in Scotland who are pushing for devolution (and I encourage them!) most of the Scots and such like are fully aware that their whole nation is subsidized by Parliament.

Pretty much, except they love the Government, because although there are a few morons in Scotland who are pushing for devolution (and I encourage them!) most of the Scots and such like are fully aware that their whole nation is subsidized by Parliament.

er.. devolution's what they've got... there's still some pushing for independence.

The Canadian system isn't bad in fact most of the time it's quite good but it's not perfect and it's not like you see on the TV doctor shows.
I think thats where alot of the issues are, we see the people on House or Grey's or which ever other medical show use every means necessary at no concern over cost to save someone when in fact very few can afford it or even require what they show but it does make for good TV.

There are waiting list and facilities are many times over worked but here you will get seen and treated based mostly on urgency.
Yes it may take 6 months to see the orthopedics person about a new hip for grandma but at some point she'll get fixed but since this is not 'life threatening' it's not as high a priority as cancer or heart surgery etc.  There is a certain allocation of resources that happens no matter how much you love grandma there's probably someone else worse off.

I've had some minor things that have required some attention but I was not dying so if I had to wait a month to have a vasectomy done it was not the end of the world...I'd rather hope the surgeon was doing more important work first then me.

We've had nothing but good care through our lives, when we had our kids we had good service and care...the worst parts of it was bad bed side manner by some of the doctors but no one was killed and surly people are everywhere no matter how much you pay them.

Doctors here run as a private service but can only bill based upon the provincial fee schedule or for a few operate privately outside the Public system (few and far between), same as most laboratory services (blood work X-rays etc) so it add a bit of private competion to the process.
The only real costs to an indivaul here are drugs, devices(wheel chairs etc) and some services like home care and ambulances.
It's not perfect but everyone is covered and it costs much less as a % of GDP than the US and many other countries...I wouldn't want to give it up.

er.. devolution's what they've got... there's still some pushing for independence.


Which is what I meant. Thank you for clarifying.

I was chatting last night with a friend of mine from France, and he told me that France's system is ranked very highly, and he mentioned that Michael Moore used it as an example in his film. One of my old French profs was saying the same thing.

I was chatting last night with a friend of mine from France, and he told me that France's system is ranked very highly, and he mentioned that Michael Moore used it as an example in his film. One of my old French profs was saying the same thing.



I wish we had someone from France on this board to tell us first hand. (I think we did at one point).




Cat

I wish we had someone from France on this board to tell us first hand. (I think we did at one point).


I've used it.

I suppose it's more similar to the Dutch system than any.. but a lot of it is still Government controlled.

Essentially, for most things, you do pay, but social security will reimburse you for a large percentage and then often your company health insurance will cover the rest.

It's sort of similar to the Canadian system or German system in that there are costs, but they're minimal.

Just watched Sicko and I thought it was excellent and I really hope it helps to change things down there, for the sake of all regular Americans and for that of some of my closest family members in the States who have little or no insurance. Honestly, the system in place just doesn't make sense. How could a proud nation like the United States let itself be put to such shame? Every country has its problems, but you would think that the US, a country with so much money, would be facing different kinds of problems than this one (which they are, but just saying).

Just watched Sicko and I thought it was excellent and I really hope it helps to change things down there, for the sake of all regular Americans and for that of some of my closest family members in the States who have little or no insurance. Honestly, the system in place just doesn't make sense. How could a proud nation like the United States let itself be put to such shame? Every country has its problems, but you would think that the US, a country with so much money, would be facing different kinds of problems than this one (which they are, but just saying).





It boils down to one word: GREED! Greed by the insurance companies, greed by the pharmaceutical companies, & greed by the law makers who's campaigns are financed by the insurance & pharmaceutical companies. And the average American doesn't mean s**t to these people.



Cat 

There was a movie that attempted to address the issue, "John Q."  I saw it on the tube today.  In spite of Denzell Washington, Robert Duvall, Ray Liotta, and James Woods, "John Q" is really lame.  If you have the chance not to see it, take it!

"Sicko" is a great piece of advocacy journalism, not so much a "documentary."  I agree with Michael Moore.  I know why he did not show the disadvantages of the socialized/single payer systems.  The problem is, if you didn't know any better, you'd think healthcare in other countries is utopian. I object to utopian thinking when it comes to the "free market paradise" ideology on the Right, and I object to it when Michael Moore glosses over the complicated reality of healthcare by any system.  Still, I appreciate Moore making the salient points he made.  The American healthcare system is a disgraceful failure and we could indeed have it much better if we focused on "we" not "I."  I can only hope we get to the point in healthcare reform where we have to confront the complications of socialized/single payer systems.

Just watched Sicko and I thought it was excellent and I really hope it helps to change things down there, for the sake of all regular Americans and for that of some of my closest family members in the States who have little or no insurance. Honestly, the system in place just doesn't make sense. How could a proud nation like the United States let itself be put to such shame? Every country has its problems, but you would think that the US, a country with so much money, would be facing different kinds of problems than this one (which they are, but just saying).




Sicko is an excelent movie.  I find it interesting though that he doesn't tell about the problems in the British health care system.  I'm hearing about it from Davey.  Max is right though, it is a wonderful propaganda piece for Single Payer Universal Health Care however there are always more than one side to everything.

People shouldn't be so surprised. Moore has always been a left-wing documentary film-maker with a purpose of diffusing his political beliefs to the broader public. Let's face it, most everyday Americans aren't going to hear about the fact that every other Occidental country in the world has universal healthcare in any way other than in a feature film.  They won't hear about people working for insurance companies whose sole mandate is to screw people out of coverage. They certainly won't be taught in school or from the media.

If people want to hear what opponents to UHC have to say, all they have to do is turn on the television and choose to listen to one of the many media personalities masquerading as journalists.

Everyone has the right to live. Medical attention is a human right. It's a privilege to have that right, because so many people in the world don't have it at all, but for those of us who are lucky enough to live in democracies, we should demand more from the governments we have created than just to order us around all the time and draught us into the military when someone has decided it's time people in another country should be killed or punished.

I wish we had someone from France on this board to tell us first hand. (I think we did at one point).

The French system is extremely good at point of delivery: so much so that they take on some of the NHS overflow (i.e. they have some spare capacity for some types of operation).  But... and there is a "but": it is very expensive, and I am told is pretty heavily abused.  A bit like the NHS in that respect: too many people trying to get too much out of a system that wasn't designed for the load it's carrying.

Everyone has the right to live. Medical attention is a human right.


You're 100% correct here.

Pretty much.. all other major social programs.. I can make an argument for abandoning.. but healthcare.. No. It's a disgrace.. a blight if you will, on the face of the nation, that every year, thousands upon thousands of people die, simply because they do not have the financial ability to receive adequate treatment. I'm all about telling people on welfare to take a running jump.. but if you turn up in the emergency room, you should not receive a bill because somethings happened to you. It's not even a case of 'personal responsibility' - Like today, I feel really f**king ill... do you think I just walked around until I found somebody with a bug and made them cough down my throat? Of course not.. I simply caught something. Now, I'm already feeling better than yesterday and will probably be fine in a day or two.. but what if it wasn't that simple.. what if I ended up with Pneumonia? All of a sudden, I'm facing thousands and thousands of dollars worth of bills - Even if I have health insurance! - simply because John Nobody sneezed in my general direction.

Horses**t!

I'm all about telling people on welfare to take a running jump..

off topic rant/

Well, the welfare state is disappearing. The poverty state is here to stay. 
We as a nation have to stop looking for easy answers.  The Right wants the government to butt out completely.  We had that before the New Deal.  We had hunger, violence, disease, and premature death. 

Then we had the welfare state, which helped big business by letting the government pick up the tab for economic failures.  In 1970 the evident result was permanent welfare dependence, deplorable public housing, urban decay, drug abuse, violence, disease, and premature death....and hunger.  A dirty secret is the staggering rates of infant mortality among the urban poor.  Ever heard of Kwashiorkor?  Marasmus?  Sound like tropical diseases, don't they?  They are.  They're results of extreme protein deficiency in the Third World.  The dirty secret is the Third World includes Detroit, the the south side of Chicago, North Philadelphia, the the east side of Baltimore, and the boonies of Kentucky.  Kwashiorkor and Marasmus are not epidemic in such places, but they're no strangers either. 

We're supposed to stop looking to the government for help, say the conservatives.  Leaving aside the obvious argument that the government belongs to everybody and if millionaires feel no shame in lobbying not to pay their fair shair, what's the shame in poor people asking for a hand out?  I must turn to the private sector and ask, what are you willing to do?  Their answer is it's their job to satisfy their customers, make money for their stockholders, and that's it; if you're poor, start your own business, be an entrepeneur!  Ever try to get a bank loan with no assets and $20.00 to your name?  No dice.  You can, however, make a tidy sum selling illicit drugs, and that has been the poor man's entrepeneurship for a couple of generations.  However, we see the social costs of this are horrifying.

Guys like Jerry Brown, Ralph Nader, and Dennis Kucinich look at the dying inner cities and the crumbling infrastructures throughout the country and suggest vocational programs in which a high school dropout could learn skills that would allow him to help rebuild the cities and repair the infrastructure.  At the end, he's a stone mason, a carpenter, or an electrician; he's got a marketable skill and won't have to rely on the government.

You say they're lazy and don't want to work?  They don't want to flip burgers, that's for sure.  Can't blame them.  The reason they don't want to work is they've been embittered and demoralized.  Give them meaningful jobs in which the know they're making their country a better place; give them jobs in which they earn decent pay and feel like they belong to something that matters, you'd be surprised how fast they'd call themselves patriots.

I believe everybody wants to work.  We're social creatures.  We want to contribute to our societies.  We innately know that selling junkfood for minimum wage as a career ceiling is not contributing in a meaningful way.  It creates rage and cynicism.

Jerry Brown got called a whacko.  Ralph Nader got called a whacko.  Dennis Kucinich got called a whacko.

Well, Mr. and Mrs. Republican and Mr. and Mrs. Let's-vote-for-Hillary-Like-Good-Liberals, it looks like your stuck with urban hellscapes and bridges that plunge into the Mississippi.  You can go back to your suburban homes and say a prayer to Milton Friedman.  You can go back to your yuppie condos and and toast the Clintons with a glass of Quilceda Creek, and pretend your parties care about anything other than getting elected, staying elected, and staying elected.

The desperate poverty that afflicts America's working classes and demoralizes all who don't pretend it isn't there is a solvable problem.  It's just not an easily solvable problem.  It's nothing you can fit on a bumper sticker.

If Mr. Churchill offered you blood, toil, sweat, and tears for a hard fought victory down the road, you'd just ask him for another slice of cheesecake and a bottle of Chateau d'Yquem and contemplate improved fung shui for your lawyer foyer whilst listening to John Tesh.

America is gutless in the face of its domestic problems and denial is more than a river in Egypt!
>:(

/end off topic rant

Whew, Max. I agree, but remember that not every joy has been sucked out of life yet. There's still cold beer, and you need one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Keithsindiapaleale.JPG/200px-Keithsindiapaleale.JPG

Whew, Max. I agree, but remember that not every joy has been sucked out of life yet. There's still cold beer, and you need one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Keithsindiapaleale.JPG/200px-Keithsindiapaleale.JPG

Oh, no.  No no no!  You think I get wound up ranting when I'm sober....
;D

here's a little devil's advocacy, a rather harsh indictment of britain's NHS in today's london times. improbably, it's quite funny -- i was reading it and chortling to myself and mom's asking me what i'm reading and i'm all, oh, it's about this guy with a debilitating brain disease. it's really funny!

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_extracts/article2240400.ece

"Magnetic resonance imaging enables neurologists to see parts of your brain that were previously only available to them postmortem, sliced on a Petri dish. Probably with some fava beans and a nice chianti. But if it’s so damn smart, why is it so bloody noisy in there? It’s like shoving your head in the bass bin as a death metal band warms up.

But there it was. Deep in my medulla, the signal junction of my brain, the top end of the spinal cord, the vital link between the thought and the action, the area that controls everything from temperature to erections, from heartbeat to breathing, from eyes to feet, in there, was something. And something wrong. What it was was another question, and one unanswerable from this type of scan, but what it was doing was clear.

It was killing me. Here’s something I only learnt later. When the radiologist was handed the scan, he asked, “Righto, where’s the body?” He was quickly shushed as I was sitting about 10ft away. Shame I missed that cos I could have done with a laugh. The verdict came quickly – unlike paying off the bill for the scan, which I only did about a month ago . . .

The lovely old boy who delivered the news was one of those proper old-fashioned consultants with a bow tie, Rumpole nose, a bootful of golf clubs and a basement chocka with Montrachet. He was adamant about three things: that I needed to go into hospital yesterday, that the thing – now given the scientific name of “lesion” – in my brain wasn’t a tumour, and that we were, however, in for “a rocky ride”.

Good old British understatement. When my number’s eventually up I hope I get someone like him to deliver the news. He’ll tell me I had a good innings, was beaten by a tricky googly and it’s time for a short walk back to the pavilion.

The wife asked him if he could admit me to the Cromwell. He said he could, but asked if I had private-care insurance. “No,” she said. “What do you think it might cost?”

“Your house,” he answered, WELL, the consultant knew what he was saying. We were in for it, all of us. "

I just noticed even FOX News is saying 47 million Americans have no health insurance.

Mitt Romney won the Iowa strawpoll, so they were talking about Romney's universal healthcare plan in Massachusetts, which the state most astutely dubbed Masscare.  Mass scare.  Real bright, guys. 

But if the GOP candidate who has taken the lead in the race (not that it matters much 450 days out) is for some kind of universal healthcare, the Right better get used to the idea.

No matter what, if Hillary Clinton gets the Dem nomination, they Right is going to "hammer" her for "Hillarycare," which they're trying to cast as "Castro care."

Uh...hello?  Hello?  Anybody in there?

"Hillarycare" was the same thing Mitt Romney was trying to do in Massachusetts before he turned all his energy to a presidential bid.  Furthermore, we don't know whether "Hillarycare" would have succeeded or failed because you guys destroyed it 14 years ago, and over the past decade the U.S. healthcare system has deteriorated into a catastrophe.

"Castro care"?  Any Cuban citizen can walk into any Cuban hospital or clinic and get treatment for free.  Back when you boneheads were sabotaging the Clinton Administration's attempts to reform U.S. healthcare, you could sell that as the evils of communism, these days it sounds enticing to most Americans.

:D

Well I haven't been here for a while so I've missed this thread until now. So I should present something of an Australian perspective because our system formed part of the basis for Hillary's ideas on health care when Bubba was boss. In the major cities, the Medicare system is quite good. A visit to your local GP is bulk-billed under Medicare and at the end of the bill period the Federal Government pays each doctor $22 per consultation. However, over the last 11 years of conservative government, the system has been eroded so that doctors outside the major cities can barely make ends meet through the Medicare system and even pensioners have to pay $45 for a two-minute consult. The patient can then visit a Medicare office and apply to get the regular $22 back from the Medicare system, but that still leaves them $23 out of pocket, and private health care doesn't cover "out-patient" costs, so you can't claim a GP consult on your insurance. This has forced more people to visit public hospital casualty wards to have a consult whenever they get a cold. If that wasn't enough, one of the first things John Howard did when he became PM in 1996 was to dismantle the Federal Dental Care system. There's no rebates whatsoever for dental surgery at a private practices, so people have been forced onto waiting lists at dental hospitals that are years long. The Medicare system, then, is very good if you live in a capital city, but everywhere else it's a joke. The one thing we do have that saves us is the Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme that covers about 80% of the costs of all regular perscription drugs, and Howard knows there is no way in Hell any voter will let him get rid of that. I could write more, but I finish work in two minutes.  :P

Well I haven't been here for a while so I've missed this thread until now. So I should present something of an Australian perspective because our system formed part of the basis for Hillary's ideas on health care when Bubba was boss. In the major cities, the Medicare system is quite good. A visit to your local GP is bulk-billed under Medicare and at the end of the bill period the Federal Government pays each doctor $22 per consultation. However, over the last 11 years of conservative government, the system has been eroded so that doctors outside the major cities can barely make ends meet through the Medicare system and even pensioners have to pay $45 for a two-minute consult. The patient can then visit a Medicare office and apply to get the regular $22 back from the Medicare system, but that still leaves them $23 out of pocket, and private health care doesn't cover "out-patient" costs, so you can't claim a GP consult on your insurance. This has forced more people to visit public hospital casualty wards to have a consult whenever they get a cold. If that wasn't enough, one of the first things John Howard did when he became PM in 1996 was to dismantle the Federal Dental Care system. There's no rebates whatsoever for dental surgery at a private practices, so people have been forced onto waiting lists at dental hospitals that are years long. The Medicare system, then, is very good if you live in a capital city, but everywhere else it's a joke. The one thing we do have that saves us is the Pharmaceutical Benefit Scheme that covers about 80% of the costs of all regular perscription drugs, and Howard knows there is no way in Hell any voter will let him get rid of that. I could write more, but I finish work in two minutes.  :P

PM Howard was buddy-buddy with Bush, which made everybody real happy too!  Every time the conservatives take charge, they tell you the government can't afford to do this, that, and the other thing, and yet costs go up up up as services go down down down!  It's like the one-ball vasectomy! 

No surprise they get the shaft in the Outback...bunch of abos and rednecks, who care about them?
::)

PM Howard was buddy-buddy with Bush, which made everybody real happy too!  Every time the conservatives take charge, they tell you the government can't afford to do this, that, and the other thing, and yet costs go up up up as services go down down down!  It's like the one-ball vasectomy! 

No surprise they get the shaft in the Outback...bunch of abos and rednecks, who care about them?
::)



I have been here too long. When I first read "PM Howard", I thought you were asking him to send Howard (board member) a Private Message.  :D ;D ;D


Cat

I have been here too long. When I first read "PM Howard", I thought you were asking him to send Howard (board member) a Private Message.  :D ;D ;D


Cat

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/sign10.gif

PM Howard was buddy-buddy with Bush, which made everybody real happy too!  Every time the conservatives take charge, they tell you the government can't afford to do this, that, and the other thing, and yet costs go up up up as services go down down down!  It's like the one-ball vasectomy! 

No surprise they get the shaft in the Outback...bunch of abos and rednecks, who care about them?
::)


It's not even the Outback. That's not actually that much of a problem, because no one lives there. It's the centres just outside the cities. I live in the mountains an hour from Sydney and the health care is terrible. There is one doctor who bulk-bills Medicare for 35,000 people, and you need an appointment to see him. So if I get sick today, and he's booked out, it's either go to another doctor and pay $52 for him to tell me I have a cold, go to the hospital and wait 6 hours for the same thing, or drive for 40 minutes to another bulk-bill surgery in the suburbs.

It's not even the Outback. That's not actually that much of a problem, because no one lives there. It's the centres just outside the cities. I live in the mountains an hour from Sydney and the health care is terrible. There is one doctor who bulk-bills Medicare for 35,000 people, and you need an appointment to see him. So if I get sick today, and he's booked out, it's either go to another doctor and pay $52 for him to tell me I have a cold, go to the hospital and wait 6 hours for the same thing, or drive for 40 minutes to another bulk-bill surgery in the suburbs.


It's still better than having no insurance at all yet earning too much to qualify for state medicaid.  Millions of Americans end up in the ER because they waited until they were so sick they absolutely needed medical attention right away.  Then they get stuck with a giant hospital bill they can't pay.  A lot of times the hospital eats the cost, which ultimately gets kicked back to the taxpayers anyway. 

It's so stupid the way healthcare systems treat dental and psychiatric as separate from the rest of healthcare. 

It's news to no one in medicine that oral health affects overall physical health.  Don't I know it.  I need crowns and root canals myself.

If you've got a person with schizophrenia who can't get proper treatment, it always costs more in the end.
::)

I don't fully understand how the Heath Care System works in Canada, but all I know is that when I go to the hospital or to see my doctor, I give them my health card, and that's all.  No hospital bills. 

Ambulances cost money though.  Back in 2002, I required one to rush me to the E/R and about a week later, I got a bill in the mail telling me I had to pay.  I was so pissed off about that.  I had no idea that you had to pay for use of an ambulance.  If I ever get injured in the future, I'll take a bus to the hospital lol

I don't fully understand how the Heath Care System works in Canada, but all I know is that when I go to the hospital or to see my doctor, I give them my health card, and that's all.  No hospital bills. 

Ambulances cost money though.  Back in 2002, I required one to rush me to the E/R and about a week later, I got a bill in the mail telling me I had to pay.  I was so pissed off about that.  I had no idea that you had to pay for use of an ambulance.  If I ever get injured in the future, I'll take a bus to the hospital lol


Insurance company:  The ambulance service is not covered because you did not give us 48 hours notice.
Policy holder: Uh, OK, so next time I'm planning to get hit by a bus on Wednesday, I'll give you guys a buzz on Monday.
:D

It's still better than having no insurance at all yet earning too much to qualify for state medicaid. 

Yes I really shouldn't complain. There's no assests-test on Medicare. All permanent residents automatically qualify, regardless of income. And there are tax breaks for those who take up private insurance and an extra tax on higher income earners who don't have it. I certainly wouldn't like to live with the US system. Waiting in a hospital all day to get treated for free beats having to fork out hundreds of dollars any day of the week. The dental health problem is serious, though, especially when you learn that children from families who can't afford private cover are waiting 18 months to get infected molars cut out because of the waiting lists at dental wards.

Insurance company:  The ambulance service is not covered because you did not give us 48 hours notice.
Policy holder: Uh, OK, so next time I'm planning to get hit by a bus on Wednesday, I'll give you guys a buzz on Monday.
:D


;D ;D ;D

Yes I really shouldn't complain. There's no assests-test on Medicare. All permanent residents automatically qualify, regardless of income. And there are tax breaks for those who take up private insurance and an extra tax on higher income earners who don't have it. I certainly wouldn't like to live with the US system. Waiting in a hospital all day to get treated for free beats having to fork out hundreds of dollars any day of the week. The dental health problem is serious, though, especially when you learn that children from families who can't afford private cover are waiting 18 months to get infected molars cut out because of the waiting lists at dental wards.

Well, the old-time working class dental plan was: Have 'em all pulled out on your 18th birthday!
"Teeths is just a nuisance."

With Health Care on the front burner and all the horror stories about Health Care in Canada & the UK, I figured it was appropriate to bump this thread up.



Cat

Just watched Sicko and I thought it was excellent and I really hope it helps to change things down there, for the sake of all regular Americans and for that of some of my closest family members in the States who have little or no insurance. Honestly, the system in place just doesn't make sense. How could a proud nation like the United States let itself be put to such shame? Every country has its problems, but you would think that the US, a country with so much money, would be facing different kinds of problems than this one (which they are, but just saying).


Um we don;t have that much money anymore because the Obama and Bush(W.)  administrations couldn't/can;t balance a budget. The US government did have alot money in  Bill Clinton's second term in office in the mid 90's to early 00's period.

Here's what I heard...

The U.S. has the 38th Best Health Care System. Costa Rica outranks us...Costa Rica!

Here's what I heard...

The U.S. has the 38th Best Health Care System. Costa Rica outranks us...Costa Rica!


True enough, but we can be proud of the fact that it is one of the most expensive (he says tongue-in-cheek)

Here's what I heard...

The U.S. has the 38th Best Health Care System. Costa Rica outranks us...Costa Rica!
Who ranks the health care systems anyway and whats the criteria this study goes by for ranking each health care systems by country.

Being from the UK, I agree with most of what has been said about the NHS (No Hope Service). I live in Wales, which receives it's health funding from the London government; I don't know who administers it here, but it's a bit of a cock-up. The powers-that-be tend to go for eye-catching policies such as free Prescriptions etc., but the upshot is often poorer care. General Practitioners are being amalgamated, result in my home area being (at last attempt) a 6-week wait to see a doctor whom is part of a "pool", resulting in rarely seeing the same Dr twice. Hospitals are often in a poor state of repair/ hygiene. Local "cottage" hospitals are being closed; my nearest Accident & Emergency department is now some 20 miles away. NHS dental patient places are virtually non-existent. Out-of-hours care is in serious decline. 

Having lived in Wiltshire, England, for some time, I have no complaints about the services there. Yes, they share some of the problems of the Welsh system, but I could see the same doctor at any time; we opted for a water-birth for my daughter and were able to have this at a specially-equipped hospital some miles away, with the standard of pre- and post-natal care being excellent. When a dental abcess got so bad I couldn't swallow or breathe properly, I was admitted to hospital & had an emergancy operation the same day. I also had a course of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy there, though the funds for this may have come from the local council.

This is ostensibly all for free, but we pay handsomely for it in ever-increasing taxation. One aspect I dislike about the NHS is it's willingness to treat recent migrants with no income free of charge, sometimes as a priority; obviously these people have never paid a penny into the tax system, resulting in a boom in so-called "health tourism". Our whole Welfare State system is prone to the same profligacy.


Overall, I'd rather have the NHS than not. It may not be the best in the world, but even without seeing the stats I know it's far from the worst.

Who ranks the health care systems anyway and whats the criteria this study goes by for ranking each health care systems by country.




The World Health Organization. (BTW...I fudgeed-up, we're 37th)....

Well...here's the list....

1        France
2        Italy
3        San Marino
4        Andorra
5        Malta
6        Singapore
7        Spain
8        Oman
9        Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United States of America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
40        Brunei
41        New Zealand
42        Bahrain
43        Croatia
44        Qatar
45        Kuwait
46        Barbados
47        Thailand
48        Czech Republic
49        Malaysia
50        Poland
51        Dominican Republic
52        Tunisia
53        Jamaica
54        Venezuela
55        Albania
56        Seychelles
57        Paraguay
58        South    Korea
59        Senegal
60        Philippines
61        Mexico
62        Slovakia
63        Egypt
64        Kazakhstan
65        Uruguay
66        Hungary
67        Trinidad and Tobago
68        Saint    Lucia
69        Belize
70        Turkey
71        Nicaragua
72        Belarus
73        Lithuania
74        Saint Vincent  and the  Grenadines
75        Argentina
76        Sri  Lanka
77        Estonia
78        Guatemala
79        Ukraine
80        Solomon  Islands
81        Algeria
82        Palau
83        Jordan
84        Mauritius
85        Grenada
86        Antigua  and Barbuda
87        Libya
88        Bangladesh
89        Macedonia
90        Bosnia-Herzegovina
91        Lebanon
92        Indonesia
93        Iran
94        Bahamas
95        Panama
96        Fiji
97        Benin
98        Nauru
99        Romania
100      Saint Kitts and Nevis
101      Moldova
102      Bulgaria
103      Iraq
104      Armenia
105      Latvia
106      Yugoslavia
107      Cook Islands
108      Syria
109      Azerbaijan
110      Suriname
111      Ecuador
112      India
113      Cape Verde
114      Georgia
115      El  Salvador
116      Tonga
117      Uzbekistan
118      Comoros
119      Samoa
120      Yemen
121      Niue
122      Pakistan
123      Micronesia
124      Bhutan
125      Brazil
126      Bolivia
127      Vanuatu
128      Guyana
129      Peru
130      Russia
131      Honduras
132      Burkina  Faso
133      Sao Tome and Principe
134      Sudan
135      Ghana
136      Tuvalu
137      Ivory Coast
138      Haiti
139      Gabon
140      Kenya
141      Marshall Islands
142      Kiribati
143      Burundi
144      China
145      Mongolia
146      Gambia
147      Maldives
148      Papua New Guinea
149      Uganda
150      Nepal
151      Kyrgystan
152      Togo
153      Turkmenistan
154      Tajikistan
155      Zimbabwe
156      Tanzania
157      Djibouti
158      Eritrea
159      Madagascar
160      Vietnam
161      Guinea
162      Mauritania
163      Mali
164      Cameroon
165      Laos
166      Congo
167      North Korea
168      Namibia
169      Botswana
170      Niger
171      Equatorial Guinea
172      Rwanda
173      Afghanistan
174      Cambodia
175      South    Africa
176      Guinea-Bissau
177      Swaziland
178      Chad
179      Somalia
180      Ethiopia
181      Angola
182      Zambia
183      Lesotho
184      Mozambique
185      Malawi
186      Liberia
187      Nigeria
188      Democratic Republic of  the Congo
189      Central  African  Republic
190      Myanmar

The World Health Organization. (BTW...I fudged-up, we're 37th)....

Well...here's the list....

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
37        United States of America
38        Slovenia
39        Cuba
40        Brunei
41        New Zealand
42        Bahrain
43        Croatia
44        Qatar
45        Kuwait
46        Barbados
47        Thailand
48        Czech Republic
49        Malaysia
50        Poland
51        Dominican Republic
52        Tunisia
53        Jamaica
54        Venezuela
55        Albania
56        Seychelles
57        Paraguay
58        South     Korea
59        Senegal
60        Philippines
61        Mexico
62        Slovakia
63        Egypt
64        Kazakhstan
65        Uruguay
66        Hungary
67        Trinidad and Tobago
68        Saint     Lucia
69        Belize
70        Turkey
71        Nicaragua
72        Belarus
73        Lithuania
74        Saint Vincent  and the   Grenadines
75        Argentina
76        Sri  Lanka
77        Estonia
78        Guatemala
79        Ukraine
80        Solomon   Islands
81        Algeria
82        Palau
83        Jordan
84        Mauritius
85        Grenada
86        Antigua   and Barbuda
87        Libya
88        Bangladesh
89        Macedonia
90        Bosnia-Herzegovina
91        Lebanon
92        Indonesia
93        Iran
94        Bahamas
95        Panama
96        Fiji
97        Benin
98        Nauru
99        Romania
100       Saint Kitts and Nevis
101       Moldova
102       Bulgaria
103       Iraq
104       Armenia
105       Latvia
106       Yugoslavia
107       Cook Islands
108       Syria
109       Azerbaijan
110       Suriname
111       Ecuador
112       India
113       Cape Verde
114       Georgia
115       El   Salvador
116       Tonga
117       Uzbekistan
118       Comoros
119       Samoa
120       Yemen
121       Niue
122       Pakistan
123       Micronesia
124       Bhutan
125       Brazil
126       Bolivia
127       Vanuatu
128       Guyana
129       Peru
130       Russia
131       Honduras
132       Burkina   Faso
133       Sao Tome and Principe
134       Sudan
135       Ghana
136       Tuvalu
137       Ivory Coast
138       Haiti
139       Gabon
140       Kenya
141       Marshall Islands
142       Kiribati
143       Burundi
144       China
145       Mongolia
146       Gambia
147       Maldives
148       Papua New Guinea
149       Uganda
150       Nepal
151       Kyrgystan
152       Togo
153       Turkmenistan
154       Tajikistan
155       Zimbabwe
156       Tanzania
157       Djibouti
158       Eritrea
159       Madagascar
160       Vietnam
161       Guinea
162       Mauritania
163       Mali
164       Cameroon
165       Laos
166       Congo
167       North Korea
168       Namibia
169       Botswana
170       Niger
171       Equatorial Guinea
172       Rwanda
173       Afghanistan
174       Cambodia
175       South     Africa
176       Guinea-Bissau
177       Swaziland
178       Chad
179       Somalia
180       Ethiopia
181       Angola
182       Zambia
183       Lesotho
184       Mozambique
185       Malawi
186       Liberia
187       Nigeria
188       Democratic Republic of   the Congo
189       Central   African   Republic
190       Myanmar





Karma for posting the list.



Cat

See, we're ahead of Cuba!  Told you that commie healthcare warn't no good!
:P

Being from the UK, I agree with most of what has been said about the NHS (No Hope Service). I live in Wales, which receives it's health funding from the London government; I don't know who administers it here, but it's a bit of a cock-up. The powers-that-be tend to go for eye-catching policies such as free Prescriptions etc., but the upshot is often poorer care. General Practitioners are being amalgamated, result in my home area being (at last attempt) a 6-week wait to see a doctor whom is part of a "pool", resulting in rarely seeing the same Dr twice. Hospitals are often in a poor state of repair/ hygiene. Local "cottage" hospitals are being closed; my nearest Accident & Emergency department is now some 20 miles away. NHS dental patient places are virtually non-existent. Out-of-hours care is in serious decline. 

Having lived in Wiltshire, England, for some time, I have no complaints about the services there.

The regional disparity we see today is one of the inevitable knock-on effects from the Thatcher-era reorganization of the NHS into "competing" trusts in the dogmatic belief that a market-type system is by definition more efficient than a nationally-run one.  There are so many flaws in this kind of thinking that I simply don't have the patients.. oops, Freudian typo, I mean patience to list them all.

IIRC, the Labour government didn't like the setup, but figured that it would be too traumatic to do a second full-scale reorganization within a decade; unfortunately, the changes they have made since haven't been anything more than superficial and the underlying idiocy of artificial competition continues to mean that even though overall funding has increased humungously over the last decade, front-line health care hasn't received anything like the increase the headline figures suggest.

I'd love to see how these rankings are calculated.

I've been to a Greek hospital, a British hospital and an American hospital.

I know which was the most expensive (do I even need to say?) but I also know which one I'd prefer to go to.

The Greek one was vile, I was more concerned about catching something there than I was concerned about the condition I went in with.

Hospitals in the U.K tend to be fine as long as you don't mind bleeding from your head whilst waiting, or alternately, laying prostate for a year until you reach your turn on a waiting list. (Not an exaggeration, my mother had a serious back injury and was totally unable to walk, quite literally, she could lay down and that was about it, even sitting was horribly painful. The waiting time for an operation, roughly one year.)

I dare say these rankings factor in cost as a big element and that's why the U.S is so far down on the list. Well, it's your body, be responsible for it, go the cheap route if you want. If you had a problem with your car, would you go to the cheapest mechanic and just hope it was alright, or would you take your vehicle to a mechanic with a good reputation that you knew would actually fix the problem?

I dare say these rankings factor in cost as a big element and that's why the U.S is so far down on the list.

IIRC the French health system is one of the most expensive per capita in the world - but it's universal & free at the point of use.

I'd bet the US is that far down the list because of the numbers of people who can't afford the quality of care that is available to those who can.

Health care in Canada.
Is most Canadian provinces, you don't have to pay anything fee at all to visit a doctor, or go for certain tests that are covered, even going to emergency. (but there is a fee if you go by ambulance)
I had a kidney stone problem 3 years ago, I stayed in the hospital for 3 days/nights, had many tests and medications, did not have to pay 1 cent.

If you are employed full -time, (or some part time as well), usually your company has a health and dental plan. Some plans cover anywhere from 50% to 100% (of course there in a maximum per year for some dental care procedures) Most of the plans I have belonged to covers 80% of any dental visit/surgery/procedures and 80% of all prescription medication. The plans can include your spouse and kids as well.

Having said that, there can be a long wait for certain surgeries/procedures here, and those who have $ will go to the states and get it done quicker.

IIRC the French health system is one of the most expensive per capita in the world - but it's universal & free at the point of use.

I'd bet the US is that far down the list because of the numbers of people who can't afford the quality of care that is available to those who can.


One would assume they finance it via a considerably higher tax rate and hence the cost becomes irrelevant. If you have no choice regarding whether or not you pay for it then it makes very little difference.

I still love our Health Care System in Canada.  It may have a few flaws, but without it, I know alot of people would be screwed.

The one big flaw I have seen is that E/R's sometimes get overcrowded because of wait times, often due to people who go there for concerns that aren't life threatening.  I once seen a guy in the waiting room get all upset because other patients were taken priority over him.  His concern:  He stubbed his toe and it hurt. 

"Awww, muffin.  Want me to punch you in the face and make it better?"

I still love our Health Care System in Canada.  It may have a few flaws, but without it, I know alot of people would be screwed.

The one big flaw I have seen is that E/R's sometimes get overcrowded because of wait times, often due to people who go there for concerns that aren't life threatening.  I once seen a guy in the waiting room get all upset because other patients were taken priority over him.  His concern:  He stubbed his toe and it hurt. 

"Awww, muffin.  Want me to punch you in the face and make it better?"

I have seen these long waits many times, sometimes over 6 hours just to get in ER. I have met a guy who had a bleeding pinky coz he accidentally jabbed himself in his pinky while sewing. He wanted to make sure it wasn't infected, so he waited hours and hours at emerg. Fortunately, I ( who had kidney stone pain) got in ahead of him)

I'd love to see how these rankings are calculated.


Well, if you're interested, those rankings are taken from a report published by the World Health Organization in 2000 that examined the performance of health care systems around the world. Here it is:

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/index.html




The rankings are shown in the last section of the report. They're shown in the table starting on page 152 in the column at the very right labeled "Overall health system performance":

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_annex_en.pdf
(in PDF format)

This data is nine years old now, so you might not consider it to be as relevant, though.

I have seen these long waits many times, sometimes over 6 hours just to get in ER. I have met a guy who had a bleeding pinky coz he accidentally jabbed himself in his pinky while sewing. He wanted to make sure it wasn't infected, so he waited hours and hours at emerg. Fortunately, I ( who had kidney stone pain) got in ahead of him)



One time an intestinal blockage put me in the ER.  I read an entire dog-eared copy of the Reader's Digest, and then I read it again.  Then I sorta zoned out, lost track of the hours.  Finally, after x-rays, and more waiting in the exam room, the doc came back in, gave me a dose of Drain-O and sent me home. 
:P