Well, it's happened again.  A chance for upstate NY'ers to gain some relief from being taxed to death due to NYC and the Dems lead the charge in shooting it down.  Another NIMBY (and no doubt payoff) in action influencing right and wrong....

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/07/18/2007-07-18_3_blind_mice_run_ny_into_ground.html

http://www.timesunion.com/ASPStories/Story.asp?StoryID=606957&Category=STATE&LinkFrom=RSS

Half a billion dollars that the upstaters have to fork out now rather than try and make NYC a self sustaining entity.....

Well, it's happened again.  A chance for upstate NY'ers to gain some relief from being taxed to death due to NYC and the Dems lead the charge in shooting it down.  Another NIMBY (and no doubt payoff) in action influencing right and wrong....

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/07/18/2007-07-18_3_blind_mice_run_ny_into_ground.html

http://www.timesunion.com/ASPStories/Story.asp?StoryID=606957&Category=STATE&LinkFrom=RSS

Half a billion dollars that the upstaters have to fork out now rather than try and make NYC a self sustaining entity.....


I live in the city, and I can't see how this thing could have worked, mainly in terms of the logistics of the tolls getting collected. 

Tolls can be collected in two ways -- electronically or by a human.

There has to be a human, because not every vehicle is going to have an EZ-Pass.  These human toll collectors would be city employees who would need to be paid salary and benefits.

As for the EZ-Pass, there's no way something like that could be mandatory and actually work.  First off, exactly which drivers would it be mandatory for?  NYC residents?  NYS residents?  Would you want it to be mandatory for you, living upstate and never using it?  What about commuters from NJ and CT who are licensed and registered in other states?  The NY DMV would have no authority over them.  What about the one-time visitor?  On and on.

Even if there were a mandate of some sort, if there were no cash option whatsoever, it would only take one vehicle whose owner misplaced the thing to cause a tremendous traffic jam.  And in any given morning rush, there'd be significantly more than just one such vehicle.

Bloomberg is an idea man, not a detail man.  He comes up with these proclamations that are put into place with no foresight whatsoever -- a good example is the smoking prohibition in bars.  The bars are smoke-free, but those who live NEAR the bars are pissed now because the smokers are outside at 3:00 in the morning, conducting themselves the way one would expect bar patrons to conduct themselves at 3:00 in the morning.  People have complained that they can't push their baby strollers past some establishments due to the concentration of smoke outside.  Also, it's not fun to be a woman walking past a bunch of drunk guys standing outside the pub.  No foresight.

As for your comment about upstaters paying for NYC -- well, I don't know what to tell you.  You, or your parents or grandparents or whoever made the choice to put down roots in NYS, knew that the state included NYC.  I like to think of us as all one state, and would happily watch my taxes go to revitalize some of the upstate counties, cities and towns that very desperately need it. 

Sounds to me like it was designed more for the borough dwellers who would benefit from some sort of EZ pass, and anybody else would make do with having to deal with an old fashioned toll collector when they came to visit.  Granted, with the volume of traffic going into Manhattan it would be a large adjustment, but we do it every day when we get off the thruway to exit around Buffalo or Syracuse to get to work, whether we have an EZ pass or we pay cash, it's a fact of everyday life around these parts.

Maybe it would make more people consider using public transportation as well, and that would help all the way around, wouldn't it??

Yeah, I'd like to think of us as all one state as well, until I see this area not getting the support it deserves because of the leeching conglomerate we call NYC, and it's awfully easy to say that you'd be more than "willing" , especially when it's known it'll never happen in our lifetimes.

It would be real interesting to see NYC break off and become it's own state.  See how they'd handle having to support themselves through the gross taxation that the entire state suffers through now due to the money pit called the Big Apple....

Yeah, I'd like to think of us as all one state as well, until I see this area not getting the support it deserves because of the leeching conglomerate we call NYC, and it's awfully easy to say that you'd be more than "willing" , especially when it's known it'll never happen in our lifetimes.

It would be real interesting to see NYC break off and become it's own state.  See how they'd handle having to support themselves through the gross taxation that the entire state suffers through now due to the money pit called the Big Apple....


Well said, P. I'm sick and tired of providing money, water, and power to the city.
And especially having all of us branded as "New Yorkers" even though we live hundreds of miles away.

                                          >:(

"But the authors take the "two nations" argument more seriously than most, exhaustively documenting the ways they believe  a backward-looking “Retroâ€� America, characterized by conservative religious values and lockstep Republican loyalty, is taking financial advantage of innovative, free-thinking “Metroâ€� America. Retro states, they claim, disproportionately control the federal government and claim an unfair share of taxpayer-funded handouts. All Democrats need to do, they argue, is target their appeal to voters in progressive-leaning coastal and Great Lakes “Metroâ€� states, and they’ll hold a permanent majority without the need for a single vote from the southern and Western states of “Retroâ€� America. "

:P

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5781627/site/newsweek/

"But the authors take the "two nations" argument more seriously than most, exhaustively documenting the ways they believe  a backward-looking “Retroâ€� America, characterized by conservative religious values and lockstep Republican loyalty, is taking financial advantage of innovative, free-thinking “Metroâ€� America. Retro states, they claim, disproportionately control the federal government and claim an unfair share of taxpayer-funded handouts. All Democrats need to do, they argue, is target their appeal to voters in progressive-leaning coastal and Great Lakes “Metroâ€� states, and they’ll hold a permanent majority without the need for a single vote from the southern and Western states of “Retroâ€� America. "

:P

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5781627/site/newsweek/

It came with the godawful disgusting "Southerning" of the U.S. with Reagan.  The bad thngs (not the good things) about Southern culture dominate the American political psyche.  It's worst among white males.  I would bet no less than 50% of American white males would vote for Sheriff Arpaio if he ran for President.  Sheriff Arpaio is the standard-bearer for "Red state" America.
Now the Red states play and the Blue states pay. 

It came with the godawful disgusting "Southerning" of the U.S. with Reagan.  The bad thngs (not the good things) about Southern culture dominate the American political psyche.  It's worst among white males.  I would bet no less than 50% of American white males would vote for Sheriff Arpaio if he ran for President.  Sheriff Arpaio is the standard-bearer for "Red state" America.
Now the Red states play and the Blue states pay. 


And just what is wrong with the way Sheriff Arpaio runs his department???

And just what is wrong with the way Sheriff Arpaio runs his department???

Exactly.

Exactly.


Whatsa matter Max...you one of these bleeding heart types who actually believe prisoners ought to live and have more than some people who haven't screwed up and been incarcerated??

Whatsa matter Max...you one of these bleeding heart types who actually believe prisoners ought to live and have more than some people who haven't screwed up and been incarcerated??

Keep talking.  My point is bolstered with every word.

Keep talking.  My point is bolstered with every word.


Therefore: point = prisoners have more rights than free citizens.

???

Keep talking.  My point is bolstered with every word.


Wrong Max..it's not bolstered, it's more like shot down....

C'mon, tell me how it's societies fault the prisoners are in there because of class, and peer pressure and crap like that....

Therefore: point = prisoners have more rights than free citizens.

???

You guys freak me out.  I mean, Jesus H.P. Lovecraft!  
Humane incarceration = more rights than free citizens.
It's...it's like far-right brainwashing.  Can't you see the utter nonsense?  
I shouldn't even bother to pursue this.  
I'm at a loss.


Wrong Max..it's not bolstered, it's more like shot down....

C'mon, tell me how it's societies fault the prisoners are in there because of class, and peer pressure and crap like that....

"Society's"
Tell me you don't know the difference between plural and ownership.  I mean, this is supposed to be an "ownership" society, not a "pluralistic" society!  (Or am I just being a member of the Elite Corps of Effete Snobs?)
::)
First of all...most of the prisoners Arpaio is abusing have not even been convicted of anything.

You guys freak me out.  I mean, Jesus H.P. Lovecraft! 
Humane incarceration = more rights than free citizens.
It's...it's like far-right brainwashing.  Can't you see the utter nonsense? 
I shouldn't even bother to pursue this. 
I'm at a loss.
"Society's"
Tell me you don't know the difference between plural and ownership.  I mean, this is supposed to be an "ownership" society, not a pluralistic society!
::)
First of all...most of the prisoners Arpaio is abusing have not even bee convicted of anything.


Abusing???  I'm gonna need elaboration on that one for sure....

Haven't been convicted??  Really??  And they're in jail??

Abusing???  I'm gonna need elaboration on that one for sure....

Haven't been convicted??  Really??  And they're in jail??

It could happen to you if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The cops might think you did something, arrest you, and charge you, and then the court would arraign you (though since the end of writ of habeas corpus, they might get to skip this step). At that point, you might be let on on bond, or remanded to custody, either way you have not been judged "guilty."

Go get a legal textbook and look up the basics of criminal processing.

Heck, just watch "Law & Order" reruns!
::)
As in any county jail, there are a great many criminals who have been arrested and charged but:
a. Could not make bail awaiting their trial.
b. Were denied bail awaiting their trial.
Either way no court, no judge, no jury has convicted them of a crime.  You are innocent until proven guilty, not suspected of being guilty.
I don't say suspects should be housed in five-star hotels, but it is absolutely inhumane (women's pink undies for men)to humiliate detainees and house them in tents exposed to the harsh temperature extremes of the desert.  You do not put detainees awaiting trials on chain gangs, for chrissakes.  Arpaio should have been impeached years ago!
::)

I spent roughly six years of my life in the northern Adirondacks, and never once in that time did I go to the City. But despite its large cost, it also brings in more money than I can probably even imagine. The only gripe we ever had was that all the people from the cities would come and live in our small communities to escape the crime, bringing their poor attitudes and horrendous accents with them.

I spent roughly six years of my life in the northern Adirondacks, and never once in that time did I go to the City. But despite its large cost, it also brings in more money than I can probably even imagine. The only gripe we ever had was that all the people from the cities would come and live in our small communities to escape the crime, bringing their poor attitudes and horrendous accents with them.

And their needed money.  From my understanding, many North Country communities suffer stagnant economies and high unemployment.

And their needed money.  From my understanding, many North Country communities suffer stagnant economies and high unemployment.


I can't say what exactly that certain number of families from the cities (including places like Albany, Schenectady, Troy etc...) brought into that small mountain town I once inhabited, but it sure wasn't money. I'm not talking about people on weekend holidays, I mean people who moved in to stay.

It could happen to you if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The cops might think you did something, arrest you, and charge you, and then the court would arraign you (though since the end of writ of habeas corpus, they might get to skip this step). At that point, you might be let on on bond, or remanded to custody, either way you have not been judged "guilty."

Go get a legal textbook and look up the basics of criminal processing.

Heck, just watch "Law & Order" reruns!
::)
As in any county jail, there are a great many criminals who have been arrested and charged but:
a. Could not make bail awaiting their trial.
b. Were denied bail awaiting their trial.
Either way no court, no judge, no jury has convicted them of a crime.  You are innocent until proven guilty, not suspected of being guilty.
I don't say suspects should be housed in five-star hotels, but it is absolutely inhumane (women's pink undies for men)to humiliate detainees and house them in tents exposed to the harsh temperature extremes of the desert.  You do not put detainees awaiting trials on chain gangs, for chrissakes.  Arpaio should have been impeached years ago!
::)


Inhumane??  Pink underwear is considered inhumane??

So what if they're working on a chain gang in the desert heat??  I guess you've never been on a crew building a McMansion in the desert, or witnessed a DPW crew repairing a line break down in a trench, or laid asphalt in summer..not to mention being in the military and being stationed in the desert, for training purposes or otherwise....

As far as temperature extremes are concerned...I'm sure the carpentry crew working a mile or so away from the jail is enduring the heat of Maricopa county equally, with the exception of chains on their feet....as are the rest of the workers of the trades in that general area...

Maybe, just maybe, we should coddle them ??  How about we do like they do in NYS, and make sure that each and every one of those poor misguided, society crapped on individuals get all the bennies that the average working man or woman doesn't??  Lets let EVERYBODY have access to subsidized cigarettes, a buck a pack while incarcerated..or subsidized cookies and junk food, or subsidized toothpaste and toiletry items...

Lets make sure they have the best medical treatment available to them as well,,and dental also...and most important of all..make sure it's FREE because they deserve it, right??

How dare NYS charge a prisoner a whole dollar for a pack of cigarettes??  How inhumane can they get anyway???

And their needed money.  From my understanding, many North Country communities suffer stagnant economies and high unemployment.


Pshaw !!  Needed money??  From NYC types to the upstate economies??  Please.....

The stagnant economies are a result of political influence and the money from Albany being channeled downhill to the city instead of pumping it upstate...

Yes..NYC is a wonderful Mecca for shoppers, and to add culture to the poor minions..but to pump dollars and revenue into the upstate region??  No friggin' way....

PS...I think the local unemployment rate last month was 4.3%..I'd say that was pretty low.....

What accent?  ???

Do they sound French-Canadian, or have the sorta northern nasal "o" thing going on?

  My guess is that he was talking about ethnic accents as well, though.  He might as well have used the "n" word or the "sp" word.


Not McDonald, you have him all wrong on that score.

What I believe McDonald was referring to, Rice, was the typical loud, nasal native NYC accent.  My guess is that he was talking about ethnic accents as well, though.  He might as well have used the "n" word or the "sp" word.


I think there's a difference between saying someone's accent is weird and actually saying that they suck because they're black or brown or whatever.  I've personally never had any problem with accents though, but I do find certain accents interesting.

McDonald used the term "horrendous," not weird.


I guess that's a somewhat inflammatory word but certain sounds DO grate on one's ears, whether or not one likes the person making the sounds...

OK, so I'm "weird" now.  Cool.

I really don't have time for this.  I doubt you guys'll be seeing me around much anymore. 

Later.


I'm a minority.

I also speak California Standard English.

I like Northern and Southern accents though, and the Canadian "eh" is pretty sweet :)

OK, so I'm "weird" now.  Cool.

I really don't have time for this.  I doubt you guys'll be seeing me around much anymore. 

Later.


Touchy much? So McDonald said accents are horrendous. BFD. There are more important things in the world than getting offended and bent out of shape over someone's assessment of a farkin' accent. I've been called a spic, a beaner, and everything else under the sun, but I'm not getting pissed over it. And that's worse than having someone make fun of an accent.

And Rice didn't call you weird, he called your comparison weird because...well, it is.

Again, I come from Connecticut -- not NY.  This has been my home throughout my adult life.

Do you guys realize how cliquey you all sound?  Like friggin' high school sheep.  I've been very impressed by this site, but if someone's not allowed to state he/she is offended without the equivalent of "Mean Girls" jumping all over them, I think I'm a little too old to be here. 



Well, I know you aren't older than me, and you can't be more minority than me, and your accent can't be worse than mine, and you can't be a more proud of you ethnicity as I(maybe just as, but not more than) you can't have taken more flack about that said accent, my Boston accent is pronounced.  I have been reading all this and I also think this is out of proportion.  Perhaps, just perhaps this isn't a matter of clique, perhaps this is a matter of you blowing something out of proportion.

The stagnant economies are a result of political influence and the money from Albany being channeled downhill to the city instead of pumping it upstate...


Western Mass has the same problem.  Boston is the biggest city AND the capital.  It's not quite as bad in my area where the state university is, but the more rural areas get treated like crap by Beacon Hill.  From the Bostonian point of view, after 495, there's Worcester, there's trees, there's Amherst/Northampton, there's more trees, and that's the end of the state.  You're in Albany!


McDonald used the term "horrendous," not "weird."

I made fun of the horrendous and weird Boston accents, but some people in Britain thought my accent was horrendous.  They thought I was Canadian! 
;D

Keep typing. With every word you type, you are making what McDonald and eSox said true about rude people from the city.

And did you read what I just wrote about being called a spic or a beaner? Or are you too mired in your own little world of woes to care?

*edited to add* And I agreed with your first post, but after seeing how bent you got when people tried to explain McDonald's and eSox's stance on things...well, you lost what sympathy I had for you.


I like beaners.  Beaners eat beans.

I made fun of the horrendous and weird Boston accents, but some people in Britain thought my accent was horrendous.  They thought I was Canadian! 
;D


I'm sure you were honoured. ;)

I'm sure you were honoured. ;)

Take off, eh!

I was surprised some people in Britain didn't know where Massachusetts was, they thought it was out in the Midwest, like Michigan or someting.  If I said "Boston," they all knew Boston, but not for the reasons you'd thnk, but because that's where "Cheers" is.  I'd have to explain "Cheers" is in Hollywood.  Early '90s, Brits were crazy about "Cheers"!
:D

I like beaners.  Beaners eat beans.


Srsly. I was called a f**king Mexican Beaner by some guy 15 years older than me. I was all of 9. He was some coked out trashcan living with his girlfriend's family. My friend and I were walking home from school and he almost hit us with his car and then yelled at US and said those words. So my mom and my friend's mom heard about it and told our dads (who are both extremely large and proud Mexicans), and they paid a visit to him to see what his issue was. He took one look at them and started blubbering and crying and apologizing. They told him that he should be apologizing to us, not to them. So he came crawling over and begged our pardon. A few months later, he moved out of the cul de sac. I can't imagine why. ;D

Srsly. I was called a f**king Mexican Beaner by some guy 15 years older than me. I was all of 9. He was some coked out trashcan living with his girlfriend's family. My friend and I were walking home from school and he almost hit us with his car and then yelled at US and said those words. So my mom and my friend's mom heard about it and told our dads (who are both extremely large and proud Mexicans), and they paid a visit to him to see what his issue was. He took one look at them and started blubbering and crying and apologizing. They told him that he should be apologizing to us, not to them. So he came crawling over and begged our pardon. A few months later, he moved out of the cul de sac. I can't imagine why. ;D

Yeah, it takes a big man to call a little girl a "f**king Mexican Beaner."  What a loser! 
::)

I was only quoting Tommy Chong, who was trying to come up with answer to Cheech's "Mexican-American" song.
"Beaners.....beaners....beaners....Eat beans! 
And that's all I got."

Rice, I'm surprised by this. Not a fan... what have I done to you? And I am not elitist in the slightest. What does that even mean, elitist? If it means that I don't give emotional head-cases like our friend here, Annie Bananas, the time of day then I guess you're right. But if you mean that I look down on poor people then you're wrong (if that were the case, I'm not sure whom I'd be looking down on, seeing as how I am quite poor myself).


Perhaps I misspoke, my apologies.  I meant that I am not a fan of your opinions, not that I hate you.  I think you present yourself intelligently but with a hint of arrogance that rubs people the wrong way, and that doesn't make you a bad person, it just means I am less likely to agree with your point of view.  I did emphasize to the loud one that you weren't racist though :)

Perhaps I misspoke, my apologies.  I meant that I am not a fan of your opinions, not that I hate you.  I think you present yourself intelligently but with a hint of arrogance that rubs people the wrong way, and that doesn't make you a bad person, it just means I am less likely to agree with your point of view.  I did emphasize to the loud one that you weren't racist though :)


Now there I can agree with you. I do have a hint of arrogance, friends have told me and I accept that.

]
Yeah, it takes a big man to call a little girl a "f**king Mexican Beaner."  What a loser!  
::)

I was only quoting Tommy Chong, who was trying to come up with answer to Cheech's "Mexican-American" song.
"Beaners.....beaners....beaners....Eat beans!  
And that's all I got."


Ah ha! I was wondering why that sounded familiar!




Perhaps I misspoke, my apologies.  I meant that I am not a fan of your opinions, not that I hate you.  I think you present yourself intelligently but with a hint of arrogance that rubs people the wrong way, and that doesn't make you a bad person, it just means I am less likely to agree with your point of view.  I did emphasize to the loud one that you weren't racist though :)


And that's what debate is all about. Amen.

Now there I can agree with you. I do have a hint of arrogance, friends have told me and I accept that.



Arrogant?  You are arrogant?!  Well that is something that is quite unheard of in the 00s  ::)  A little bit of arrogance goes a long way, and most of us here on the political board are going 90 miles an hour and running out of road.    ;D

Ya know.. to be the responsible mature one for once, I think it's fairly inappropriate to describe people from the city as horrendous and weird in what should in theory be a forum for non-slanderous debate.

Of course, I'm hardly one to talk..

Ya know.. to be the responsible mature one for once, I think it's fairly inappropriate to describe people from the city as horrendous and weird in what should in theory be a forum for non-slanderous debate.

Of course, I'm hardly one to talk..


Hey! I am from the city, and I regularly tell people from sleepy hollows that the last thing they need are people like me moving into their towns.  You know, the ones who want the 24 hour pharmacy, the coffee shops that open at 5am and have drive through, the convenience stores, the dueling gas stations. I am staying put, but there are many who leave the city for the country and complain about the smell of manure, the tractors plodding down the road, the chickens in the backyards.  City people move to the country with a vision that doesn't match the reality, then go about trying to remold.  The first sign is usually the designation of a "Historical District" from then on it is rising prices of land, zoning changes, and the introduction of 24 hour pharmacies.

I'm just saddened.  "The loud one?"  "Annie Bananas?"  I've been posting here on and off for about a a year and a half and have never seen anyone treated this way besides a troll every once in awhile.  I came here for a respectful debate and I was told that people like me have horrendous accents and "we're bringing something upstate, but it ain't money."  I talked about issues, two others chose to attack a group of people.  I called it out and now I'm being called names?  I'm sorry, but I'm not the one who started here.  I call out personal attack when I see it online and that's that.  This makes me really sad, especially since I feel as though I've become friendly with some people here. 


I truly am sorry you feel this way. But from one who has been on both sides of something like this I would say that what has gone on here is not anywhere near the flames that many of us have been caught in, and been singed, if not burned, but have stated our cases, right or wrong, cooled off, and continued on.   Don't let yourself been driven away from what you have felt in the past to be a positive experience.

I'd appreciate the moderators removing this post as well as any others that attack my character ("bananas" "loudmouth" "loud one" "touchy").  I've owned my part and deleted my own posts; if this is indeed a forum free from personal attacks, then the above mentioned posts should be removed as well.


You have to hit the "report to moderator function" on the posts you feel should be removed. That way the mods know what they're dealing with.

Thank you.

  And Exo..."they're bringing something upstate, but it's not money" I view as an attack. 






I'd still like to know how you bring my name and that comment into the same line.....

I'd still like to know how you bring my name and that comment into the same line.....


Sorry.  I looked back and it was McDonald's.

When I'm wrong I say I'm wrong.

Inhumane??  Pink underwear is considered inhumane??

So what if they're working on a chain gang in the desert heat??  I guess you've never been on a crew building a McMansion in the desert, or witnessed a DPW crew repairing a line break down in a trench, or laid asphalt in summer..not to mention being in the military and being stationed in the desert, for training purposes or otherwise....

As far as temperature extremes are concerned...I'm sure the carpentry crew working a mile or so away from the jail is enduring the heat of Maricopa county equally, with the exception of chains on their feet....as are the rest of the workers of the trades in that general area...

Maybe, just maybe, we should coddle them ??  How about we do like they do in NYS, and make sure that each and every one of those poor misguided, society crapped on individuals get all the bennies that the average working man or woman doesn't??  Lets let EVERYBODY have access to subsidized cigarettes, a buck a pack while incarcerated..or subsidized cookies and junk food, or subsidized toothpaste and toiletry items...

Lets make sure they have the best medical treatment available to them as well,,and dental also...and most important of all..make sure it's FREE because they deserve it, right??

How dare NYS charge a prisoner a whole dollar for a pack of cigarettes??  How inhumane can they get anyway???


I judge the health of a society by how it treats its vulnerable--the poor, the elderly, the impaired; I judge the temper of a society by how it treats its incarcerated.  If Sheriff Arpaio was merely tolerated, that would be discouraging.  The fact that Arpaio is celebrated says less about the barbarism of criminals and more about the barbarism of our society.

I stress that many prisoners under Arpaio's ward have been convicted of nothing.  They are awaiting trial.  Arpaio is not the warden of a maximum security prison but a county jail. 

I do not consider it inhumane to deprive jail inmates of cigarettes and pornography.  I do consider it inhumane to deprive inmates of nourishing food, adequate shelter, and medical care.

The level of violence in American correctional facilities is not solely the result of concetrating society's most violent and immoral members in close quarters.  That certainly is the greater part of it, but some of the problem is systemic; that is, it is a result of the overall structure of the prison system.   This, of course, is a thread unto itself.

Coddling has nothing to do with it.  Few prisoners are lifers.  Most get released. Do we want them to return to civilian life as better citizens or harder criminals?

This is the difference between the Northern idea of incarceration for reform and the Southern idea of incarceration for sheer punishment and revenge.  They didn't worry about what prisoners on the chain gangs of Angola or the Partchman Farm would be like when returned to society.  If you got sentenced to 10 years at Partchman, they did not intend for you to make it through the sentence alive.  The "Supermax" is a product of the "sheer punishment" mentality.  Three years at Pelican Bay renders a person clinically insane. 

Indeed, these men and women are for the most part guilty of the crimes for which they were charged.  These people have committed abominable offenses to society.  I'm not talking about being "nice" to them.  I'm talking about what results we want as a society.

Sheriff Arpaio's pink underwear serves no purpose but humiliation. 

Your logic is again flawed.  Of your own volition, you choose to build houses in the baking sun, a vocation for which you are paid handsomely, and after which you return home for cold beers and a decent meal in an air conditioned dwelling.  Sheriff Arpaio's inmates, conversely, are forced, not paid, fed on junkfood and sleep in tents unprotected from the elements.  Again, if Arpaio was the warden of a prison in which every inmate was convicted in a court of law of a serious felony, I would not consider hard labor an unjust practice.  It is far more cruel to keep prisoners caged in tiny cells 23 hours a day.  However, there's a difference between suspects and convicts.  For lesser felonies,* say a second DUI, I don't see a problem making an able-bodied convict go out and work for his 90-day sentence.  If an inmate is merely accused and could not make bail, that is very different.  Arpaio makes no distinction.  He should be impeached, not lionized. 

*That is, crimes for which the convicted is sentenced short-term to county jail, not long-term to prison.

Well, to be honest, I hadn't read any of this when I posted above ^ ... and obviously haven't seen any deleted posts ... so don't know how the name calling developed.

It is truly a shame when we degenerate to 'ad hominem' (slur/ attack the man/woman) instead of the facts. Yes, this is probably where the moderators should have a word with the parties concerned. I like to see a bunch of smilies/laughs here, not people trying to get under somebody's skin ... which someone did to me in the past frequently, and helped lead to my 'suicide' on this board a year back.

Don't let that happen to you Annie. Speak your mind, stay on this board at any rate. We just have to be civil/ respect each other. That's the way!

:)


P.S. I NEVER deliberately seek to belittle anyone here in my humor ... it's all for a laugh ... nothing more! Peace to you all!  8)

http://www.inthe00s.com/avatars_custom/avatar_3188.png

Nice new avatar, Annie!

:) 8) :)

Well, to be honest, I hadn't read any of this when I posted above ^ ... and obviously haven't seen any deleted posts ... so don't know how the name calling developed.

It is truly a shame when we degenerate to 'ad hominem' (slur/ attack the man/woman) instead of the facts. Yes, this is probably where the moderators should have a word with the parties concerned. I like to see a bunch of smilies/laughs here, not people trying to get under somebody's skin ... which someone did to me in the past frequently, and helped lead to my 'suicide' on this board a year back.

Don't let that happen to you Annie. Speak your mind, stay on this board at any rate. We just have to be civil/ respect each other. That's the way!

:)


P.S. I NEVER deliberately seek to belittle anyone here in my humor ... it's all for a laugh ... nothing more! Peace to you all!  8)



It feels good to know I'm not the only one this has happened to, Al.  I certainly have seen much worse on other boards.  Like I said, I'm staying away from this "politics" area -- at least for awhile.  If I do see something that is an attack, however, I will call it out -- especially if it's directed at me.  I'm a generally happy person, but I don't take crap from nobody.  That's the last I'd LIKE to say on this now, but if attacked, I will respond back.

I echo your sentiment: peace to ALL.  :)

http://www.inthe00s.com/avatars_custom/avatar_3188.png

Nice new avatar, Annie!

:) 8) :)


Thanks Al  :)  not as sunburned here!!

Thanks Al  :)  not as sunburned here!!


Thanks for your comments ^^ . Yes, keep in mind what you said earlier ... 'don't throw out the baby with the bath-water' ... there's still much to enjoy here ... and most of the people ... virtually all, now that there ARE MODERATORS (which I can't remember being the case 12 months back) ... seem to address each other politely. In that regard, it seems a much more pleasant experience to me this time around, and I can't forsee that I'll leave again.

As for your pic .... I have to say quite honestly .... you are ONE pretty lady!

:)

It could happen to you if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  The cops might think you did something, arrest you, and charge you, and then the court would arraign you (though since the end of writ of habeas corpus, they might get to skip this step). At that point, you might be let on on bond, or remanded to custody, either way you have not been judged "guilty."

Go get a legal textbook and look up the basics of criminal processing.

Heck, just watch "Law & Order" reruns!
::)
As in any county jail, there are a great many criminals who have been arrested and charged but:
a. Could not make bail awaiting their trial.
b. Were denied bail awaiting their trial.
Either way no court, no judge, no jury has convicted them of a crime.  You are innocent until proven guilty, not suspected of being guilty.
I don't say suspects should be housed in five-star hotels, but it is absolutely inhumane (women's pink undies for men)to humiliate detainees and house them in tents exposed to the harsh temperature extremes of the desert.  You do not put detainees awaiting trials on chain gangs, for chrissakes.  Arpaio should have been impeached years ago!
::)



Right on, Max...    Debating "Justice" with the right-wingers is futile!

Right on, Max...    Debating "Justice" with the right-wingers is futile!

Because they refuse to distinguish between "revenge" and "justice."  Or maybe they can't!
::)

Annie, MCD, take it somewhere else.  This is between you two, and it is tired.

Because they refuse to distinguish between "revenge" and "justice."  Or maybe they can't!
::)


In much the same way that the lefties can't distinguish between MANY, many differences, yet refuse to acknowledge them....

In much the same way that the lefties can't distinguish between MANY, many differences, yet refuse to acknowledge them....



such as...

As for your pic .... I have to say quite honestly .... you are ONE pretty lady!

:)



Thanks.  I wanna see more of YOU!!

Danoota, as a woman I intend to defend myself against abuse from a man wherever and whenever it happens.  I am sorry that you feel uncomfortable with this, but it is my right, and I shall continue.  Making it private is the WORST thing a woman can do when she's being verbally assaulted in such a fashion, for then no one witnesses what the man is saying or doing.


Yes, but the rest of us have heard enough, start a thread, go IM, but please take it somewhere else.

If (and I intend to) .. read this debate .. it is quite possible I might take 'McDonald's' side (on the debate) ....

I would certainly agree with 'McD' that the Iraq war is a bunch of baloney ....where good innocent people have been sent in the name of their government to act as 'policemen' for an ILLEGAL war  'Presumed Innocent till PROVEN guilty ' ....whatever happened to this 'high standard' as espoused by so many classic American films ........ where are those 'frigging 'WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION' ............ (well we THINK!!!! you might have them ... so let's invade your sovereign territory ....  destroy a whole bunch of families ............... blow away limbs .................... and ...........OH  ............we were wrong .......... 'SORRY'!  :-[ :( ................ (now if ONLY we'd stuck to 'innocent until PROVEN  guilty ......!).

I lived in the USA  back in the mid 70's (2 years) ......... I love Americans ....... probably the most friendly people on the planet! I was there again in 1980 (close to a year). The people I met were VERY friendly / kind to me ........

However, I feel this whole Iraq venture is 'ill-conceived' .....and has just unleashed a whole bunch of future fanatics who have justifiiable reasons to hate the 'West' .. / seek revenge!

(Thanks for maming me / killing my parent's ...etc!).

^ Nah, she shouldn't have to shut her mouth, but she should think about what she's saying before she says it because it seems the escalation happened after she "reprimanded" the McDonald.  It could definitely have been handled differently.

Ok ... 'Rice Cube' ... who I've been 'confused with'   ;) ... maybe this whole thing IS getting out of hand ............. I don't want to start a 'new war' ... ... don't know ALL the facts just yet ....

In a way I'm sorry I seem to be getting dragged into the muck... just want things to be nice and friendly. However ............. ANNIE ... should not be told to 'shut her mouth' .... as one or two people here seem to be saying ......just cause they're so (oh shucks  :P ::) :P  .....'tired of it' ........... ::) ) !!


1. No one is telling her to shut her mouth. It was said that it's getting tiring because it's OFF TOPIC and INFLAMMATORY.

2. This is a politics board and this particular topic was about NY Politics, not about who can throw down the best.

3. Methinks you like instigating battles.

I agree with Danoota. This is getting tired and should be brought to a Mod's attention. I have already done so, but it will take awhile for them to get to it, and I highly doubt anyone will hold their tongue until it's razed.

^ Nah, she shouldn't have to shut her mouth, but she should think about what she's saying before she says it because it seems the escalation happened after she "reprimanded" the McDonald.  It could definitely have been handled differently.


I don't really think that NYC would do as its own state. As much as I like upstate NY better than the city, I can't really imagine one without the other. A state needs its balance. If you have city-minded people in the south-east who are probably quite liberal when it comes to state and national affairs, then you have to have your more provincial, conservative vote from up north to balance it out. If the two were different states you might have one state too liberal (dare I say, too liberal) and one too conservative, and that would throw off the electoral balance.

Hey ... I've decided I'm gonna take my own advice ........ this is way too heavy .... I'll post in some lighter / laughter / flakey threads ...


........ about the steam for a 'lightweight' like me!  ;) :P :P :P

Sure... I'll admit I haven't read the background .. so maybe McDonald was provoked. It's quite possible that if I read the whole script that's unfolded here, I might take McDonald's side ...  feel that HE was provoked into this war of words. What I do know is this whole thing is rather unsavoury.

If (and I intend to) .. read this debate .. it is quite possible I might take 'McDonald's' side (on the debate) ....

Well, the original topic was congestion pricing, with a sort of subtopic being the view held by some upstate NY residents that too much of their state tax $ goes to NYC.  My take on it is that we're all one state, and as a NYC resident I fully support the use of my tax dollars up north, or west, or wherever they may be needed to better the lives of my fellow NY state residents.


...I feel this whole Iraq venture is 'ill-conceived' .....and has just unleashed a whole bunch of future fanatics who have justifiiable reasons to hate the 'West' .. / seek revenge!


I couldn't agree more.  I think it creates misinformed fundamentalist fanatics on BOTH sides, actually.

I really don't care what anyone thinks; I've as much right to speak my mind as anyone else here.  I get bored reading certain threads on this and other boards, but I don't tell people not to post.


You're exactly right here Annie ^ ... (sorry I came back AFTER posting a bunch  in the 'playful penguin place') .... people telling you not to post /boring/ shut up etc;  .. 'what a noive!' .... if you wanna post bilge .... fine (at least by me). 'Off topic'? For the moderator(s) to decide ........ until you are ........................  :P

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/flipa.gif    http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/05/greenchainsaw.gif                                (NOW we'll have peace!  :D ;D :D ).

Hi everyone,

McDonald and Annie please keep the personal disputes off the board, they are strictly not permitted here in order to try to maintain civil political debate. I've already deleted a few of the posts that were off topic, I'll be looking for the rest after this.

Politics and Religion board ettiquette:

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=26011.0

"In order to maintain a civil discussion, please be reminded of this forum rule in particular:

    * Harassment occurs when a user targets another individual to cause distress, embarrassment, unwanted attention, or other personal discomfort. We do not condone harassment in any form. While you may disagree with someone's point of view, personal attacks, or attacks based on a person's race, national origin, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, disablement or other such affiliation, are prohibited. If you have a disagreement with someone's point of view, address the subject, not the person.""

Thanks.

This is worse than I thought, topic locked for the time being.