» OLD MESSAGE ARCHIVES «
The Pop Culture Information Society...
Messageboard Archive Index, In The 00s - The Pop Culture Information Society
Welcome to the archived messages from In The 00s. This archive stretches back to 1998 in some instances, and contains a nearly complete record of all the messages posted to inthe00s.com. You will also find an archive of the messages from inthe70s.com, inthe80s.com, inthe90s.com and amiright.com before they were combined to form the inthe00s.com messageboard.
If you are looking for the active messages, please click here. Otherwise, use the links below or on the right hand side of the page to navigate the archives.
Custom Search
This is a topic from the Current Politics and Religious Topics forum on inthe00s.
Subject: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/14/07 at 7:10 am
Ripped from the latest headlines:
...Islamist Hamas is wreaking havoc on the Gaza Strip, spreading the trademark of mayhem by killing fellow moslems. Hamas members have kissed the ground and proclaim the beginning of Islamic law.
...Sunnis decided to blow up a sacred Shi'ite shrine in iraq. Shia are now leveling many Sunni mosques.
...Fighting rages as "Moslem versus Moslem" duke it out in Lebanon in the name of Allah. No doubt much uulating is going on.
Now that I think of it, the Islamists actually have a great thing going. Most people, if they want to see explosions, gore, and mayhem, go to the movies. In the Middle East, you go to church.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: limblifter on 06/14/07 at 7:33 am
Ripped from the latest headlines:
...Islamist Hamas is wreaking havoc on the Gaza Strip, spreading the trademark of mayhem by killing fellow moslems. Hamas members have kissed the ground and proclaim the beginning of Islamic law.
...Sunnis decided to blow up a sacred Shi'ite shrine in iraq. Shia are now leveling many Sunni mosques.
...Fighting rages as "Moslem versus Moslem" duke it out in Lebanon in the name of Allah. No doubt much uulating is going on.
Now that I think of it, the Islamists actually have a great thing going. Most people, if they want to see explosions, gore, and mayhem, go to the movies. In the Middle East, you go to church.
And Christians have never killed anyone in the name of god.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Red Ant on 06/14/07 at 8:10 am
Now that I think of it, the Islamists actually have a great thing going. Most people, if they want to see explosions, gore, and mayhem, go to the movies. In the Middle East, you go to church.
Sounds like a Roth/Tarantino film: Mosque Hell (maybe "Hostile" would work better) - except without all the special effects and fake brutality...
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/14/07 at 8:24 am
And Christians have never killed anyone in the name of god.
Of course they have. But I live in the present and so I can not bury my head in the sand. And in the present, Islamists are the scourge of the earth, especially in theor own countries.
Thank Allah that for the most part they perform their mayhem on each other.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: SemperYoda on 06/14/07 at 12:32 pm
Of course they have. But I live in the present and so I can not bury my head in the sand. And in the present, Islamists are the scourge of the earth, especially in theor own countries.
Thank Allah that for the most part they perform their mayhem on each other.
Are they really a scourge in the U.S.? Its not all Muslims fighting each other. Its the fanatics and brainwashed. The U.S. has their own fanatics in the form of Skinheads, KKK, Christian Fundamentalists, etc. Catholics and Protestants have just only recently stopped blowing each other up in Northern Ireland. They are Christian if im not mistaken. Tribal Warfare continues in Africa. Americans may not kill each other in the name of God, but our violence is sure high. For Greed, For God, it makes no difference to me. Humans are very violent in nature and it will continue until the earth flushes us out.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/14/07 at 1:25 pm
Are they really a scourge in the U.S.? Its not all Muslims fighting each other. Its the fanatics and brainwashed. The U.S. has their own fanatics in the form of Skinheads, KKK, Christian Fundamentalists, etc. Catholics and Protestants have just only recently stopped blowing each other up in Northern Ireland. They are Christian if im not mistaken. Tribal Warfare continues in Africa. Americans may not kill each other in the name of God, but our violence is sure high. For Greed, For God, it makes no difference to me. Humans are very violent in nature and it will continue until the earth flushes us out.
I agree with you on all of those points. But the islamist mayhem is spreading worldwide. Most of the violence that you described is local in nature and yes, reprehensible.
Bu the islamic threat is ongoing and active in Lebanon, "Palestine", Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Indonesia, India, Phillipines, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, England, Spain, Holland, Belgium, and of course the U.S. of A. It is a worldwide religious movement. The fact that its perpetrators are willing to blow themselves up (to get those 72 promised virgins) is proof enough that it is a religious movement and not simply a political movement.
As Rick Santorum has been saying lately, to call this a "War on terror" is a misnomer, and a dangerous one at that. This is simply a "War on islamic Fundamentalism". It is time to call it for what it is.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/14/07 at 4:13 pm
I'm pretty dodgy about Islam. I'm pretty dodgy about religion. However, if--if-- I said "Zionists are the scourge of the Earth," conservatives on this board would throw a fit. And one could make a compelling argument about all the problems caused by the Israeli-American imperialist tag team, but I'm going to leave it there.
The difference between me and some of my liberal friends is I'm not going to defend Islam above other religions because it appears to be the faith of the underdogs.
Furthermore, the difference between me and my atheist friends is I'm not going to blame Islam, or any other religion, for all the world's problems.
You get out of religion what you put into it. If you put condemnation, vengeance, and rage into it (as your "Islamists" do), your going to get a ten-fold return on your investment.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nono.gif
As Rick Santorum has been saying lately, to call this a "War on terror" is a misnomer, and a dangerous one at that. This is simply a "War on islamic Fundamentalism". It is time to call it for what it is.
I would say Rick Santorum is mentally ill, but that would be derogatory to the mentally ill. Rick is a good example of Christianity gone wild, and a compelling reason to eschew theocracy at all levels. I agree "Islamic fundamentalism" is a problem, less because of the "Islamic" part and more because of the "fundamentalism" part.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/14/07 at 5:12 pm
I'm pretty dodgy about Islam. I'm pretty dodgy about religion. However, if--if-- I said "Zionists are the scourge of the Earth," conservatives on this board would throw a fit. And one could make a compelling argument about all the problems caused by the Israeli-American imperialist tag team, but I'm going to leave it there.
You would not get an argument from me. "Zionism" is close to "islamic fundamentalism" since it assumes some sort of birthright and moral higher ground, and has not alot of qualms about the use of violence. And Zionism is not without its own history of terror and injustice, such as sheeshila and the USS Liberty. (The Liberty inident is specifically why if I were president I would not give one red cent of aid to israel.)
But that said, you do not see Zionists blowing themselves up all over the world. And you certainly do not see Hasidics burning down the tempels of less orthodox Jews. Rabbis are not preaching "global jihad" and exhorting young kids to blow themselves up. Only in the ranks of Islam do you see worldwide mayhem, commited against moslem and infidel alike. And oddly more against moslem than infidel. Pretty much, Zionist mayhem is resticted to Israel, although there is political racketeering that is conducted by Zionists in the USA.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/14/07 at 5:25 pm
Are they really a scourge in the U.S.? Its not all Muslims fighting each other. Its the fanatics and brainwashed. The U.S. has their own fanatics in the form of Skinheads, KKK, Christian Fundamentalists, etc. Catholics and Protestants have just only recently stopped blowing each other up in Northern Ireland. They are Christian if im not mistaken.
But here is the main difference: The vast majority of citizens in these countries view these people as idiots. They in no way support either these people or their views.
In the US, people are able to take their opinions of things (abortion, prayer in school, etc) and not resort to violence as a way to enforce thier views on others. And those that do use violence are written off even by the more fanatical as "lunatics". While the "Religious Right" would love to see abortion end, they openly condemned the actions of people like Eric Rudolph.
Even at it's height of power, most considered Klukkers to be idiots. And most Catholics in both Ireland and the rest of the world condemn the actions of the IRA. And while the various American Indians try hard to keep their Tribal Identity, I can't think of any that want a return to the tribal warfare that once ruled thier culture.
On the other hand, the Islamic community seems to actually praise acts of terror, and endorse it.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/14/07 at 6:24 pm
The U.S. has their own fanatics in the form of Skinheads
Ahem!
Better they kill each other than export their virulent rhetoric abroad.
And Christians have never killed anyone in the name of god.
I think that's the basis of Christianity, if I'm not mistaken.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/14/07 at 7:07 pm
Ahem!
Better they kill each other than export their virulent rhetoric abroad.
I think that's the basis of Christianity, if I'm not mistaken.
Skinheads? Buncha chickensh*t losers if you ask me. Skinheads liked to fight 3 against 1 (or hide under the bed).
They were at their peak when I was in high school and the only good thing about them was they gave bubblegum Marxists like me a high-profile nemesis!
;D
After Morris Dees sued Metzger & son in the early '90s and shut their lame-o W.A.R. game down, the nation-wide skinhead craze died way down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Aryan_Resistance
Do I have to say it again? You get out of religion what you put into it. If geo-politics were different, you might have "Christians" using the Bible to justify suicide bombing. You're not going to get me to say Christianity or Judaism is inherently more peaceful than Islam. Any religion can come in the name of peace or in the name of war.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/14/07 at 7:17 pm
the right wing propagandists have got people whipped up into such a racist anti-islam frenzy it scares the crap out of me.
yes, it's right now one of the most violent parts of the world, the middle east. and yes, much of the violence is religious in nature. but it's a waste of time to fixate on that unless we also talk about how it's also probably the most exploited and poverty-striken and desperate places in the world, and much if not most of that is not of their own doing.
it's a civil war, dude, and civil wars are messed up. i read a statistic about the american civil war that the ratio of wounded to killed in the american civil war, more people were killed compared to injured than in just about any other war up to that time. it was because a. the people fighting HATED each other with a passion it's hard to muster for foreigners. remember the hutus and the tutsis? their children go to schools together now, but it's perhaps just a matter of time before they turn on each other again. when you take up arms against your brothers and sisters you do so with a special vengeance.
also, there's no place to go back to, in a regulkar war if you start losing you can declare victory and pull out. here the people who are fighting live next door to each other, thus absent some negotiated settlement (and the government there is helpless to do this) there's no alternative but to fight until one side completely overwhelms the other.
i dunno, it's a civil war, and it's ugly and hideous, but not unusually so. i mean, they're not being MORE monstrous because they're muslims, because the level of monstrosity inherent in a typical civil war is just about limitless anyhow.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/14/07 at 7:28 pm
the right wing propagandists have got people whipped up into such a racist anti-islam frenzy it scares the crap out of me.
yes, it's right now one of the most violent parts of the world, the middle east. and yes, much of the violence is religious in nature. but it's a waste of time to fixate on that unless we also talk about how it's also probably the most exploited and poverty-striken and desperate places in the world, and much if not most of that is not of their own doing.
it's a civil war, dude, and civil wars are messed up. i read a statistic about the american civil war that the ratio of wounded to killed in the american civil war, more people were killed compared to injured than in just about any other war up to that time. it was because a. the people fighting HATED each other with a passion it's hard to muster for foreigners. remember the hutus and the tutsis? their children go to schools together now, but it's perhaps just a matter of time before they turn on each other again. when you take up arms against your brothers and sisters you do so with a special vengeance.
also, there's no place to go back to, in a regulkar war if you start losing you can declare victory and pull out. here the people who are fighting live next door to each other, thus absent some negotiated settlement (and the government there is helpless to do this) there's no alternative but to fight until one side completely overwhelms the other.
i dunno, it's a civil war, and it's ugly and hideous, but not unusually so. i mean, they're not being MORE monstrous because they're muslims, because the level of monstrosity inherent in a typical civil war is just about limitless anyhow.
Dont confuze me with factz my mindz made up!
:P
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/14/07 at 9:07 pm
Skinheads? Buncha chickensh*t losers if you ask me. Skinheads liked to fight 3 against 1 (or hide under the bed).
They were at their peak when I was in high school and the only good thing about them was they gave bubblegum Marxists like me a high-profile nemesis!
;D
After Morris Dees sued Metzger & son in the early '90s and shut their lame-o W.A.R. game down, the nation-wide skinhead craze died way down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Aryan_Resistance
Do I have to say it again? You get out of religion what you put into it. If geo-politics were different, you might have "Christians" using the Bible to justify suicide bombing. You're not going to get me to say Christianity or Judaism is inherently more peaceful than Islam. Any religion can come in the name of peace or in the name of war.
You seem to view Skins in the same way that most uninformed individuals do.. now, I know you're well informed, so I'll let this one go. The vast majority are not members of backwards ass organizations like the Aryan brotherhood and other such groups.. neither do most of us gang up on folks, in the same way that a few bad eggs give young black men and young Latin men bad reputations, the same happens with a few bad eggs in the group.
Admittedly, it's been a while since I took my hair all the way down to the skin or walked around in a white shirt and braces, but I still wear my doc martens and my friends are all part of the same group, it's simply an identity that stays with you.
None of the main religions are more peaceful than the others, the Islamic outbursts of violence have far more to do with their location in the world than anything, you're correct with that. With only one major resource there is a power vacuum so huge that religion is the only expression.. and whatever your only expression is, be it religion, politics or sports (think Casuals/Ultras) there will be a minority that pervert it for extreme purposes.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/14/07 at 9:28 pm
You seem to view Skins in the same way that most uninformed individuals do.. now, I know you're well informed, so I'll let this one go. The vast majority are not members of backwards ass organizations like the Aryan brotherhood and other such groups.. neither do most of us gang up on folks, in the same way that a few bad eggs give young black men and young Latin men bad reputations, the same happens with a few bad eggs in the group.
Admittedly, it's been a while since I took my hair all the way down to the skin or walked around in a white shirt and braces, but I still wear my doc martens and my friends are all part of the same group, it's simply an identity that stays with you.
None of the main religions are more peaceful than the others, the Islamic outbursts of violence have far more to do with their location in the world than anything, you're correct with that. With only one major resource there is a power vacuum so huge that religion is the only expression.. and whatever your only expression is, be it religion, politics or sports (think Casuals/Ultras) there will be a minority that pervert it for extreme purposes.
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=98
this show is becoming a dangerous obsession for me.
i think you'd like act 1 best. "I would probably slug jesus." they should let you click on the separate acts. but act 1 starts at about 4 minutes in.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/14/07 at 9:30 pm
http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=98
this show is becoming a dangerous obsession for me.
i think you'd like act 1 best. "I would probably slug jesus." they should let you click on the separate acts. but act 1 starts at about 4 minutes in.
..what.. was that?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/14/07 at 9:44 pm
..what.. was that?
were you capable of playing it? you hit full episode and then go to about minute 4.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/14/07 at 9:46 pm
were you capable of playing it? you hit full episode and then go to about minute 4.
Oh, ok.. it was just talking about some guy.. I listened for about 3 minutes, what's it supposed to be about. Btw, don't you think the guy sounds a bit effeminate?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/15/07 at 1:31 am
the right wing propagandists have got people whipped up into such a racist anti-islam frenzy it scares the crap out of me.
yes, it's right now one of the most violent parts of the world, the middle east. and yes, much of the violence is religious in nature. but it's a waste of time to fixate on that unless we also talk about how it's also probably the most exploited and poverty-striken and desperate places in the world, and much if not most of that is not of their own doing.
it's a civil war, dude, and civil wars are messed up. i read a statistic about the american civil war that the ratio of wounded to killed in the american civil war, more people were killed compared to injured than in just about any other war up to that time. it was because a. the people fighting HATED each other with a passion it's hard to muster for foreigners. remember the hutus and the tutsis? their children go to schools together now, but it's perhaps just a matter of time before they turn on each other again. when you take up arms against your brothers and sisters you do so with a special vengeance.
also, there's no place to go back to, in a regulkar war if you start losing you can declare victory and pull out. here the people who are fighting live next door to each other, thus absent some negotiated settlement (and the government there is helpless to do this) there's no alternative but to fight until one side completely overwhelms the other.
i dunno, it's a civil war, and it's ugly and hideous, but not unusually so. i mean, they're not being MORE monstrous because they're muslims, because the level of monstrosity inherent in a typical civil war is just about limitless anyhow.
Perhaps it is a civil war in Iraq. And maybe the same could be said for Kashmir.
But the Islamic threat is global and they are causing mayhem in dozens of countries, with foreign fighters flowing back and forth. That's not a civil war, it is more like a world war. Much of it to subjugate fellow moslems, and women. And much of it done in the pretense that "Israel made me do it".
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/15/07 at 3:55 am
whatever. ::) just words on a screen.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Davester on 06/15/07 at 8:33 pm
The Prophet stood silently and prayed
His beard becoming wet as he cried for his fears.
“O Allah, don’t let this nation fade!â€
As he pleaded through the night
The earth around him filled with tears.
“My ummah, those who follow me,
The future of their faith
Makes me worry ’til I cry.
My brothers and sisters in Islam,
Will they be strong and carry on after I die?â€
Long live Palestine http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1193336/ps-flag1-ss.gif...
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/15/07 at 11:10 pm
The Prophet stood silently and prayed
His beard becoming wet as he cried for his fears.
“O Allah, don’t let this nation fade!â€
As he pleaded through the night
The earth around him filled with tears.
“My ummah, those who follow me,
The future of their faith
Makes me worry ’til I cry.
My brothers and sisters in Islam,
Will they be strong and carry on after I die?â€
Long live Palestine http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1193336/ps-flag1-ss.gif...
What are you some kind of a troublemaker?
???
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/15/07 at 11:16 pm
So, if Islam is the root of the problems in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syrian, and elsewhere, what choice do we have? Islam must go. We must eradicate this scourge of mankind from the planet! Onward Christian soldiers!
:P
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Foo Bar on 06/15/07 at 11:45 pm
So, if Islam is the root of the problems in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syrian, and elsewhere, what choice do we have? Islam must go. We must eradicate this scourge of mankind from the planet! Onward Christian soldiers!
:P
Judaism: "Naw, we went through that phase during the Book of Joshua, and after getting our butts kicked by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, and finally the Romans. Took us 2000 years, but we grew out of it. But our kids, running around after some carpenter who told the story wrong..."
Christianity: "Naw, we took a little longer to get started (having started with our butt already having been kicked by the Romans), and went through that phase by the time of the Inquisition. The Reformation was kinda fun, we got to try the sectarian violence thing, but even that got old after a couple of centuries. Took us 1500 years, but we eventually grew up. But our kids, running around after some guy in the desert who told the story wrong..."
Adolescence is a time of hormone-fueled rage. Some kids have a few near misses with death, and grow up. Others wrap the car around a tree and kill only themselves. Still others cross the median and take out a minivan full of innocent third parties. It is the way of things.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/16/07 at 9:17 am
So, if Islam is the root of the problems in Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syrian, and elsewhere, what choice do we have? Islam must go. We must eradicate this scourge of mankind from the planet! Onward Christian soldiers!
:P
I in no way see Islam as the problem.
What I see is the problem is a wave of extreme fundamentalism. This is perverting what Islam is into something else. Instead of a religion of peace, which embraces all "People Of The Book", some are trying to use it as a weapon as a way to attack and destroy anybody who the do not agree with.
And the fundamentalist are getting their way it seems. Lebanon has been a mess for over 20 years. The Government there even had to get help from the US recently when Fundamentalists started to attack people in a refugee camp. Their government is weak, with the Jihadists really running the country. Palestine is in a constant state of civil war, with one half wanting to co-exist with their neighbors (which according to the Koran are "People Of The Book"), while the other wants nothing more then to destory both their Islamic brothers, and the "Infadels".
But I am far from one of those calling for a Jihad against Islam. If anything, it makes me sad. A culture that has given us so much enlightenment has descended into decay. and nobody knows how to fix it. And the current "Leaders" do nothing but egg it on, being more concerned with power on Earth more then helping their followers find enlightenment in the next life. In fact, they espouse more and more atrocities in this life as being the key for glory in the next life.
In my view, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all brother and sister religions. We all descend from the same religious family, and should not be fighting like this. All 3 religions accept that we descend from Adam, Noah, and Abraham. I just wish that a charismatic leader would emerge that would guide them back into a Golden Age.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/16/07 at 9:48 am
^propz
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: SemperYoda on 06/16/07 at 9:50 am
I in no way see Islam as the problem.
What I see is the problem is a wave of extreme fundamentalism. This is perverting what Islam is into something else. Instead of a religion of peace, which embraces all "People Of The Book", some are trying to use it as a weapon as a way to attack and destroy anybody who the do not agree with.
And the fundamentalist are getting their way it seems. Lebanon has been a mess for over 20 years. The Government there even had to get help from the US recently when Fundamentalists started to attack people in a refugee camp. Their government is weak, with the Jihadists really running the country. Palestine is in a constant state of civil war, with one half wanting to co-exist with their neighbors (which according to the Koran are "People Of The Book"), while the other wants nothing more then to destory both their Islamic brothers, and the "Infadels".
But I am far from one of those calling for a Jihad against Islam. If anything, it makes me sad. A culture that has given us so much enlightenment has descended into decay. and nobody knows how to fix it. And the current "Leaders" do nothing but egg it on, being more concerned with power on Earth more then helping their followers find enlightenment in the next life. In fact, they espouse more and more atrocities in this life as being the key for glory in the next life.
In my view, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all brother and sister religions. We all descend from the same religious family, and should not be fighting like this. All 3 religions accept that we descend from Adam, Noah, and Abraham. I just wish that a charismatic leader would emerge that would guide them back into a Golden Age.
Im not a religious person myself, but I do agree with what you say here. I have never thought Islam to be the problem. I will defend Islam, but I will not defend Fundamentalism in anyway, with any religion. As is the case with all religions, I think humanity has a tendancy to screw it up.
It is sad that that region is falling into what it has, using a religion that is supposed to be about peace, but now as a basis for violence. Doesn't surprise me though because the religion was initially spread through violence by Mohammed himself soon after it was first established. Even more so after the death of Mohammed when his brother took over and it split into the 2 main sects. Not sure I have my Islamic history exactly correct though.
I dont know what can be done for the area. Its frightening and sad all at the same time. I think that is one of the reasons im not a fan of the U.S. being involved in Iraq because I dont know if there is really anything we can do. At least they all aren't unified. Can you imagine a Unified Muslim Front against America and its allies? Maybe we really like the fact that the place is in chaos. I heard there are Christians here paying the way for Jews to move back to Jerusalem so it would add more fuel to the fire in the area because they feel it will trigger end of days. Makes you wonder if it really is the end of days. ??? If your a believer in that anyway.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/16/07 at 11:04 am
It is sad that that region is falling into what it has, using a religion that is supposed to be about peace, but now as a basis for violence. Doesn't surprise me though because the religion was initially spread through violence by Mohammed himself soon after it was first established.
Yes, that is true. But you also have to look at the way things were when it was founded.
When the Jihads first started, that region of the world was split between 4 or 5 main religious groups. The majority of the Bedouins were either of the Jewish faith, or they followed various Pagon religions. Mithralism, Roman and Egyptian paganism, even some sects of the region that were highly pagan (some of which followed human sacrifice). When the Jihads first started, their target were the pagans. The Jewish Bedouins were specifically excluded, because they were "People Of The Book".
And further along, this trend continued. When the area of the old Jewish Kingdoms fell to them, they did not outlaw the Jews. I a lot of cases, they co-existed peacefully, sharing religious sites. They followed the same holy days for the most part, and the same dietary laws. And when they took over Constantinople, they allowed the Patriarch of Constantanople to remain in place. While they did take over religious sites and "destroyed" some religious icons (for religious reasons - they broke commandments against idolatry), they did not forbid the preaching or practice of Christianity.
And when they took over Spain, the Jewish faith flourished there. It was only after the Muslims were thrown out of Spain that you had the Inquisition come in and try to turn things back to how they were beforehand.
Fundamentalism firghtens me. And it does not matter what religion it follows. But the current trend of Fundamental Islam is truely frightening. Because it is little more then an Islamic version of the Inquisition. They want to put everybody on the rack, and unless they convert to the "One True Faith", they are to be destroyed. And all things brought in by outsiders are to be destroyed.
When you go to most Fundamentalist Christian parents and ask what they want their children to be, most will probably say the expected. Doctors, Lawyers, maybe even President or Minister. What is frightening is that in a lot of Fundamentalist Islamic families, they want their children to grow up to be martyrs. They even have childrens TV shows espousing how glorious it is to be a martyr to the faith.
This is the kind of thinking that drove me away from the Pentacostal faith. Someday Jesus may return and bring a paradise on earth. But if that means that in doing so my children have to die or go through 7 years of hell on Earth, I want to happen way-way in the future, like another 200 or so years. I simply could not follow a faith that actually looked forward to the End Of Times, because I want my children to grow up, and have children and families of their own.
And I may not agree with Pentacostals, but I have to admit that there are not very many of them going around trying to make the Pentacost occur in their lifetimes. They are content to prepare, and wait for God to make it happen in His(Her) own time. They are not in a rush to bring the entire world to God's judgement now because they think it would glorify themselves.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/16/07 at 11:39 am
I can't say it loud enough or often enough.
As much as I'd love to point a finger at a religion (because Damn do I hate them all) it's not actually Islam that's at fault here.
Once again - Notice, in every nation where this is a real backlash of reactionary Islamic hatred there is a huge vacuum between the ruling classes and then 'everyone else'. It's this enormous power and representation vacuum that allows a few psychotic Islamic 'Fudgeahadeen' to warp the minds of whole generations in to believing that the West, that Christianity, that Israel, that Bill Clinton and George Bush and Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan are responsible for their current state of affairs.
Essentially as a young boy in Saudi Arabia your choices are, dig ditches or go to the mosque and receive some sort of education. Notice I say mosque and not school, that's because there is no real infrastructure, the mosques are the only organized gathering places and they're where the learned individuals reside. There are thousands of mosques in all of these countries where young boys (rarely girls - which is a very backwards side of Islam) go and receive a real education from men of peace who believe in their religion, have faith in their God and respect others globally.. but there are also numerous mosques where you'll have some sort of sociopathic animal with a vendetta against society in general and Israel or the West for the most part who'll impart his vile rhetoric on to these impressionable young boys.
Basically, as per usual, it's a case of a few wankers ruining it for everybody.
For the record, I have at times been very very prejudiced towards Moslems in generally, I really bought in to the propaganda after 9/11.. then I went to college with a couple of Bosnian guys who were the nicest fella's you could ever hope to meet. Within a week of knowing them they'd introduced me to their families, friends, we'd gone out drinking had a great time.. a long time passed before I worked out they went and worshiped three times a week and were practicing Moslems.. so I figured, huh, better give them all the benefit of the doubt.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/16/07 at 12:06 pm
Once again - Notice, in every nation where this is a real backlash of reactionary Islamic hatred there is a huge vacuum between the ruling classes and then 'everyone else'.
Then how do you explain how so many of these "Fighters" are themselves from the upper classes?
Osama was hardly a ditch digger. And none of the 9/11 hijackers were from poor families. Osama's family is one of the richest and most influential familes in the Middle East. Mohamed Atta was an educated engineer. He even attended college in Germany. And the vast majority of 9/11 hijackers were also educated, from upper class families.
You even have terrorists from Kuwait, where even the poorest person lives in wealth. Thie currency is the highest valued currency in the world, and every citizen makes around $22k per year just from the oil exported every year (that is similar to payments made to citiziens of Alaska, tax free and independent of how much they make from other sources). You will not find Kuwaiti citizens working as maids and waiters, because they import all low-level help from other countries (India is a current favorite). To show how extensive this is, 65% of the Kuwaiti workforce is composed of foreigners.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/16/07 at 1:34 pm
Then how do you explain how so many of these "Fighters" are themselves from the upper classes?
Osama was hardly a ditch digger. And none of the 9/11 hijackers were from poor families. Osama's family is one of the richest and most influential familes in the Middle East. Mohamed Atta was an educated engineer. He even attended college in Germany. And the vast majority of 9/11 hijackers were also educated, from upper class families.
You even have terrorists from Kuwait, where even the poorest person lives in wealth. Thie currency is the highest valued currency in the world, and every citizen makes around $22k per year just from the oil exported every year (that is similar to payments made to citiziens of Alaska, tax free and independent of how much they make from other sources). You will not find Kuwaiti citizens working as maids and waiters, because they import all low-level help from other countries (India is a current favorite). To show how extensive this is, 65% of the Kuwaiti workforce is composed of foreigners.
There are some debunked myths about "suicide bombers," especially that they're all poor, ignorant, and desperate youth. Economic disparity is a problem, and the Osama Bin Laden's of the world are deft at exploiting economic disparity for their own agenda. Some suicide bombers are wealthy doctoral candidates, some are middle-aged women, some are the stereotyped angry young men from Gaza. Be quite sure, however, that Osama has no intention of creating an egalitarian brotherhood of peace!
Meanwhile, FOX News continues to prattle on about what a grave threat to human rights these terrorists are and how George W. Bush is the White Knight of the War on Terror...but they say nothing of the Bush family's friends, the Saudis, who continue to practice savage corporal punishment, punitive amputations, and public beheadings. You cannot wage war against "Islamists" and wilfully overlook the Saudi Arabian ruling class.
>:(
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/16/07 at 1:41 pm
...but they say nothing of the Bush family's friends, the Saudis, who continue to practice savage corporal punishment, punitive amputations, and public beheadings. You cannot wage war against "Islamists" and wilfully overlook the Saudi Arabian ruling class.
>:(
But these "Corporal Punishments" are part of Sharia Law. In fact, this is the kind of law that the Fundamentalist want to impose over everybody.
Look at countries like Iran and Taliban controlled Afganistan, and you will find law even more harshly enforced then that in Saudi Arabia. How can this possibly be a cause, if it is one of the things that the Fundamentalist themselves want to impose on everybody else (and with a zeal and fervor that the Saudi Government would not even dream of imposing)?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/16/07 at 1:46 pm
But these "Corporal Punishments" are part of Sharia Law. In fact, this is the kind of law that the Fundamentalist want to impose over everybody.
Look at countries like Iran and Taliban controlled Afganistan, and you will find law even more harshly enforced then that in Saudi Arabia. How can this possibly be a cause, if it is one of the things that the Fundamentalist themselves want to impose on everybody else (and with a zeal and fervor that the Saudi Government would not even dream of imposing)?
In times past I was with the "cultural relativists" who declared we must respect Sharia law as part of "their culture." I don't think so anymore. I don't respect Sharia law. I think it's sick and barbarous. However, I'm not sure it is within our rights to wage a crusade against it (not that you were suggesting this). It's a wicked old world.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/16/07 at 2:00 pm
In times past I was with the "cultural relativists" who declared we must respect Sharia law as part of "their culture." I don't think so anymore. I don't respect Sharia law. I think it's sick and barbarous. However, I'm not sure it is within our rights to wage a crusade against it (not that you were suggesting this). It's a wicked old world.
I myself am somewhat in a quandry when it comes to Sharia Law. One one hand, it is barbaric. But on the other, it has largely kept communities stable, and it is accepted by the vast majority of those who live under it.
At least in nations like Saudi Arabia and the former Turkish Empire, it was enforced with a Judicial outlook. Cases were judged by Judges, and great cares were normally taken to prevent innocent people from being punished. And it was effective in keeping law and order in the community. Because in the long term, Justice is all about keeping a community safe and stable.
On the other extreme however, it can turn into a tool of oppression. Fear of the way Sharia Law is enforced can be used in order to keep dissenters from speaking up against the current Status Quo.
If I agree with it or not, there is a form of justice involved in cutting off the hand of a thief. Not only is it punishment, it is also a warning to others that the person meets in the future that he is a thief. And it is a visual reminder to others in the community not to steal. Like it or not, it has worked in the region for over 1,000 years.
But the Fundamentalists want it enforced with a (pardon the pun) "Religious Zeal". They want a bloodbath that would probably make the Spanish Inquisition pale in comparison. Because while the Inquisition was interested in purifying Spain, they want to purify the world. And while a lot of people in the Middle East may agree with Sharia Law, it most certainly would not be acceptable in places like the United States or in the Commonwealth.
And in reverse, I kinda doubt that our system of Justice would be recieved very well in that area of the world.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/16/07 at 3:42 pm
The problem is not "fundamentalism". The people blowing themselves up in nightclubs and nursery schools are not simply "fundamentalists". They are Islamic Fundamentalists.
You do not see Jerry Falwell exhorting people to blow themselves up. Pope JP2, quite a Catholic fundamentalist, did not call for a New Crusade nor did he start terrorist groups. Despite its schisms, the Anglican Church is not espousing violence to settle its deep divisions. The Dahli Lama is not calling for Tibetans to start blowing up the tempels of the ersatz churches that the Chinese government has established. The Catholic Church has its divisions re: abortion and gay marriages, but you do not see priests calling for jihad or organizing terror groups. I cannot remember the last time I read about a Catholic priest strapping a bomb to himself so that he could kick some Methodist butt. (Of course in the old days, the Catholic Church had its own sordid history. But that is generally over. You do not get cavity searched at the airport because of the Spanish Inquisition).
No, it is Islamic Fundamentalists who are associated with organized mayhem across the globe. The most recent gang caught in the USA (New York airport fuel line plot) were not even Arabs, Semites, or Persians. They were Islamic Fundamentalists from the Caribbean region.
The IRA confined its mayhem to the UK, and "possibly" could be seen as a political entity, but they were in fact, for the most part, Catholics. Back in the day, you had white protestant groups in the USA causing mayhem, but again this was a localized situation, and you did not see preacher after preacher exhorting the faithful to lynch and murder.
Do we need a war against Islam? Cartainly not. But until the general public (and the givernment) get their head out of the sand and realize that, indeed, Islamic Fundamentalism is the enemy, we will be less safe.
Sharia law? Hey if that is the law determined by a given country, who am I to dictate their internal affairs? As long as the country in question keeps its hands off of the USA, it's ot my business. Originally i was not particularly concerned about the brutal Taliban. I saw it as an internal issue of Afghanistan. Of course, when it became apparant that they were harboring Al Quaeda, who is an enemy of the USA, the gloves come off.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/16/07 at 3:45 pm
The IRA confined its mayhem to the UK, and "possibly" could be seen as a political entity, but they were in fact, for the most part, Catholics.
.. and they blew up bombs and killed my friends and were murdering scum of the highest degree, just like the Islamic fundamentalists, just like the Jim Crowe protestants and just like the Non-religious soviet death squads.
Grow up.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/16/07 at 3:50 pm
Then how do you explain how so many of these "Fighters" are themselves from the upper classes?
Osama was hardly a ditch digger. And none of the 9/11 hijackers were from poor families. Osama's family is one of the richest and most influential familes in the Middle East. Mohamed Atta was an educated engineer. He even attended college in Germany. And the vast majority of 9/11 hijackers were also educated, from upper class families.
You even have terrorists from Kuwait, where even the poorest person lives in wealth. Thie currency is the highest valued currency in the world, and every citizen makes around $22k per year just from the oil exported every year (that is similar to payments made to citiziens of Alaska, tax free and independent of how much they make from other sources). You will not find Kuwaiti citizens working as maids and waiters, because they import all low-level help from other countries (India is a current favorite). To show how extensive this is, 65% of the Kuwaiti workforce is composed of foreigners.
Bored rich kids? I honestly don't know. Why did George Bush dodge the draft and spend the 70's snorting coke and getting wasted in Lubbock and then decide to turn around and deride John Kerry a man who dodged bullets and spent the 70's getting shot at and getting to know the land in the Delta? ;D
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: LyricBoy on 06/16/07 at 3:58 pm
.. and they blew up bombs and killed my friends and were murdering scum of the highest degree, just like the Islamic fundamentalists, just like the Jim Crowe protestants and just like the Non-religious soviet death squads.
Grow up.
Hey I never said the IRA were NOT scum. They blew up a building across the street from a Hotel that my Mum and Pop were staying at way-back-when. Needless to say I would not sing the praises of the IRA.
But they are indeed small fry compared to the menace that we see today... globally...
if I have my history correct (and perhaps I do not), the IRA was more along the lines of the Palestine Liberation Organization, who conducted its activities obstensibly to regain control of Israel/Palestine. The PLO had little interest in global jihad. Of course their methods were reprehensible and brutal. The IRA had similar political objectives concerning Northern ireland. And used methods similar to what the PLO used to do.
Today's Islamic Fundamentalism has nothing to do with the liberation of Palestine, and even today (other than Hamas, a relatively new phenomenon of the past 2 decades) most Palestinian sectors want nothing to do with Islamic Fundamentalism. But now we see that cancer starting to grow in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, starting to infect the Palestinian cause too.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/16/07 at 4:10 pm
hey, i've got an idea: let's bomb a bunch of people to get them to stop bombing each other!
i mean, you have to understand how silly it looks when an american gets on anyone for being violent, right? the US has the most amazingly violent foreign policy of just about any country in the world, dude.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/16/07 at 4:14 pm
Hey I never said the IRA were NOT scum. They blew up a building across the street from a Hotel that my Mum and Pop were staying at way-back-when. Needless to say I would not sing the praises of the IRA.
But they are indeed small fry compared to the menace that we see today... globally...
if I have my history correct (and perhaps I do not), the IRA was more along the lines of the Palestine Liberation Organization, who conducted its activities obstensibly to regain control of Israel/Palestine. The PLO had little interest in global jihad. Of course their methods were reprehensible and brutal. The IRA had similar political objectives concerning Northern ireland. And used methods similar to what the PLO used to do.
Today's Islamic Fundamentalism has nothing to do with the liberation of Palestine, and even today (other than Hamas, a relatively new phenomenon of the past 2 decades) most Palestinian sectors want nothing to do with Islamic Fundamentalism. But now we see that cancer starting to grow in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, starting to infect the Palestinian cause too.
They blew up buildings everywhere, ignoring civilian casualties and never even attempting to enter in to discussions about the future of Northern Ireland. Those Fenians are scum of the worst degree, the rope isn't even good enough for them, it'd be better if the entire population of that vile little country had died out during the famines, they've bought nothing but trouble - Nature's curse as it were.
The PLO have at times made attempts to enter in to a peace process, whenever anybody attempts to do the same with the IRA they're systematically hunted down and killed, as I say, those Fenians aren't after peace in Northern Ireland, they are just in search of further bloodshed.
What you seem to be missing here, is that for the most part the Islamic Jihadist groups do have a cause, it's just a cause that we in the West can't even begin to understand. Although Mushroom has pointed out that numerous 'Freedom Fighters' are from the upper classes, I think we'd all agree that the majority are from the low class, notice I don't say lower classes, I say low class, there is only one in the parts of the world where this Jihadist attitude is bred. I think the reason the high profile Jihadists are often wealthy is because they have the means to bring about bloodshed and terror in a way that Achmed from Saudi Arabia can't, the best he can do is make a crude bomb and blow himself up.
They're fighting for a confusing cause, sometimes against their own 'nation' and the way they've been treated or sometimes against Western Powers that they believe have propagated their situation. You've got to remember, that unlike the PLO and IRA who both had educated and informed leaders, most of these groups (and they're more often than not, small and separated) have no leadership, just a lust for vengeance against an unknown enemy.
hey, i've got an idea: let's bomb a bunch of people to get them to stop bombing each other!
i mean, you have to understand how silly it looks when an american gets on anyone for being violent, right? the US has the most amazingly violent foreign policy of just about any country in the world, dude.
Of course we do and it's this attitude that creates the hostility we see in the middle east. The problem is, like I pointed out above, due to the lack of infrastructure in these 'nations' the vast majority of people we're dealing with are totally ignorant and uneducated and as such, not just not open to discourse but quite often simply not capable of engaging in productive dialog. It's a catch-22. Of course the other side of it is that if we attempt to work with the Governments of these 'nations' they are usually so corrupt that what aid and help we give is leached upon by those who don't need it, leaving Achmed with nothing, just an even worse view of the U.S.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: philbo on 06/16/07 at 5:49 pm
The IRA confined its mayhem to the UK, and "possibly" could be seen as a political entity, but they were in fact, for the most part, Catholics. Back in the day, you had white protestant groups in the USA causing mayhem, but again this was a localized situation, and you did not see preacher after preacher exhorting the faithful to lynch and murder.
The IRA was (and is) a wholly political organization: the Protestant/Catholic divide helped (and still helps) to keep the two sides of the community apart, but the argument is a political one. It's not bombing now as it seems like it has decided that it can further its aims better by the ballot box (through Sinn Fein) than in continuing terror campaigns, especially in the wake of 9/11, when its major source of funding (Irish catholics in the US) started to realize that the IRA weren't the peace-loving put-upon-by-the-English poets that they'd been led to believe. But a lot of that funding still comes through, making Sinn Fein the best-funded political party in the island... last count, they had more money to spend than all the other parties in the North and South put together. No wonder they're doing well at the ballot box.
On-topic: while humanity prefers to delude itself with fairy stories about God and paradise after death, people will continue to kill in His name while not seeing quite how ****ing stupid they are (especially if their killing includes killing themselves). But what's happening in Palestine now does seem to me to be more about power than religion. It does have its comic moments, though: a Hamas spokesman declaring any new government "illegal", while Hamas gunmen have been shooting whoever got in their way... you've got to love the irony.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/16/07 at 6:10 pm
They blew up buildings everywhere, ignoring civilian casualties and never even attempting to enter in to discussions about the future of Northern Ireland. Those Fenians are scum of the worst degree, the rope isn't even good enough for them, it'd be better if the entire population of that vile little country had died out during the famines, they've bought nothing but trouble - Nature's curse as it were.
Whatever you say, Oliver!
::)
The problem is not "fundamentalism". The people blowing themselves up in nightclubs and nursery schools are not simply "fundamentalists". They are Islamic Fundamentalists.
So how do we get the Islamic Fundamentalists to cut it out?
hey, i've got an idea: let's bomb a bunch of people to get them to stop bombing each other!
i mean, you have to understand how silly it looks when an american gets on anyone for being violent, right? the US has the most amazingly violent foreign policy of just about any country in the world, dude.
Yeah, but we're right and all the others are wrong, especially the ones who keep hiding OUR oil and THEIR sand! And if you don't like it here, you can take your commie-azz American-hating down to Venezeula!
:D
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: SemperYoda on 06/16/07 at 7:41 pm
Aren't we meddling in the affairs of countries throughout the world? Couldn't you consider that a global menace? Maybe Americans dont but I can see how alot of these citizens would think of it that way.
Kind of funny, Im sure Britain thought of the revolutionary colonials the same way and vice versa. The King and his dominance was the bully. American Colinials were the thorn in Britains side.
Sharia law? Hey if that is the law determined by a given country, who am I to dictate their internal affairs?
I do not agree with the basis of Sharia Law, however that is their law, yet we condemn them for human rights violations and then continue to meddle in their affairs. You can take it how you like, but I think any type of fundamentalism from any group isn't a good thing. However, how in our right mind can we think that we can contain any type of religious movement to this extent? It maybe a double edged sword. We can sit back and stay out of world affairs and get scorned for not doing enough or we can meddle in their affairs and get scorned as the bully. However, it seems to me that this ultimate fear of Islamic Fundamentalism is the same way of thinking as during the Red Scare. An attempt to have the general populace fear the enemy and have you believe that you were anti America if you thought differently.
I have a hard time believing that Islamic Fundamentalists would hate America as much if we weren't trying to be an influence in Middle Eastern affairs. Islamic Fundamentalism didn't start after 9/11, it has been around awhile now. I really wish we would stop and think what our foreign policy after World War II has created. Instead, because we are America, we feel that we need to flex our military might directly against the Islamic Fundamentalists. The American propaganda machine keeps instilling in us fear of Islamic Fundamentalists, so much that it seems to me the fear has extended to more than just fundamentalism, but its beginning to be Islam as a whole. This is definitely not what is needed. We want to have a strong pressence in the Middle East, yet in reality, we have no idea how they think. It maybe easier to contain a few psychotic people and put them in mental instituations but an all out war towards the Islamic Fundamentalists can only lead to disaster in my opinion.
I am glad that I live in America, however, I do not like the fact that we are led to believe that we should live in fear. I do not like what the Islamic Fundamentalists are doing, but I also dont think America really has a clue what to do in dealing with them. Maybe deep down their governments agree with the fundamentalists. What keeps the general populace from fighting back if they dont partially agree? It would seem to me that rather than wade into unclear waters, we should sit back and really take a look at the big picture and maybe we should also find ways to help protect us at home.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: statsqueen on 06/16/07 at 8:54 pm
They blew up buildings everywhere, ignoring civilian casualties and never even attempting to enter in to discussions about the future of Northern Ireland. Those Fenians are scum of the worst degree, the rope isn't even good enough for them, it'd be better if the entire population of that vile little country had died out during the famines, they've bought nothing but trouble - Nature's curse as it were.
As a preface: I don't know you, your background, or your views as I haven't read every single one of your posts, so I don't know if this is some sort of sick joke (I was adopted into a long line of sarcastic, warped humored individuals, but none of them would have expressed an opinion like tihis).
While I, of course, don't agree with the IRA's methods and don't condone violence in general, I take issue with your statement that the "entire population of that vile little country had died out during the famines." It is true that I will never know if my ancestors came from northern Ireland or somewhere closer to Dublin, but it still bothers me that you would be happy seeing an entire culture and civilization (including many innocent people) wiped out because of the actions of a minority. Should I be concerned that your extreme views can be interpreted as a sort of fundamentalism prone to violent actions?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/17/07 at 12:10 am
As a preface: I don't know you, your background, or your views as I haven't read every single one of your posts, so I don't know if this is some sort of sick joke (I was adopted into a long line of sarcastic, warped humored individuals, but none of them would have expressed an opinion like tihis).
While I, of course, don't agree with the IRA's methods and don't condone violence in general, I take issue with your statement that the "entire population of that vile little country had died out during the famines." It is true that I will never know if my ancestors came from northern Ireland or somewhere closer to Dublin, but it still bothers me that you would be happy seeing an entire culture and civilization (including many innocent people) wiped out because of the actions of a minority. Should I be concerned that your extreme views can be interpreted as a sort of fundamentalism prone to violent actions?
Part humor, part honesty, which part is dominant remains to be seen I suppose.
Whatever you say, Oliver!
Cromwell?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Davester on 06/17/07 at 2:09 am
Ripped from the latest headlines:
...Islamist Hamas is wreaking havoc on the Gaza Strip, spreading the trademark of mayhem by killing fellow moslems. Hamas members have kissed the ground and proclaim the beginning of Islamic law.
...Sunnis decided to blow up a sacred Shi'ite shrine in iraq. Shia are now leveling many Sunni mosques.
...Fighting rages as "Moslem versus Moslem" duke it out in Lebanon in the name of Allah. No doubt much uulating is going on.
Now that I think of it, the Islamists actually have a great thing going. Most people, if they want to see explosions, gore, and mayhem, go to the movies. In the Middle East, you go to church.
The root cause of the endless fighting in the Mid East is when the Ottoman Empire fell and the British redrew the borders while shuffling people around without paying attention to tribal histories, including old feuds...
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/17/07 at 1:53 pm
As a preface: I don't know you, your background, or your views as I haven't read every single one of your posts, so I don't know if this is some sort of sick joke (I was adopted into a long line of sarcastic, warped humored individuals, but none of them would have expressed an opinion like tihis).
While I, of course, don't agree with the IRA's methods and don't condone violence in general, I take issue with your statement that the "entire population of that vile little country had died out during the famines." It is true that I will never know if my ancestors came from northern Ireland or somewhere closer to Dublin, but it still bothers me that you would be happy seeing an entire culture and civilization (including many innocent people) wiped out because of the actions of a minority. Should I be concerned that your extreme views can be interpreted as a sort of fundamentalism prone to violent actions?
Ok, after re-reading this when I wasn't rather tired, maybe an apology is in order. It's a subject I'm extremely touchy about, having grown up in London during the IRA bombing campaigns.. and having had friends and family involved in the bombings, as well as myself.. and after my Father came back from Belfast with all manner of wounds thanks to being fired at just for doing his job.. and for the endless calls for the bombing of London by Separatists on both sides of the border, my opinions are just a little clouded.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/17/07 at 3:02 pm
Ok, after re-reading this when I wasn't rather tired, maybe an apology is in order. It's a subject I'm extremely touchy about, having grown up in London during the IRA bombing campaigns.. and having had friends and family involved in the bombings, as well as myself.. and after my Father came back from Belfast with all manner of wounds thanks to being fired at just for doing his job.. and for the endless calls for the bombing of London by Separatists on both sides of the border, my opinions are just a little clouded.
Oh, you're father was in the military over there?
???
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/17/07 at 3:08 pm
Oh, you're father was in the military over there?
???
Yup.
He left after witnessing a bomb destroy 3 houses, he ended up going and living in the desert out in Arizona for a while. Bunch of kids in one of the houses.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/17/07 at 3:15 pm
by strange coincidence, that's where kim richards had her soul-searching period, the arizona desert.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: SemperYoda on 06/17/07 at 3:47 pm
Until she slipped and fell on a cactus. It was a sad story.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/17/07 at 4:43 pm
by strange coincidence, that's where kim richards had her soul-searching period, the arizona desert.
Yeah, my old man met up with her.
Long story short, I'm gonna inherit millions from the Hilton family fortune, but it's taken up after I invested millions in my flying attack porcupine alarm system company.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: statsqueen on 06/17/07 at 7:28 pm
Ok, after re-reading this when I wasn't rather tired, maybe an apology is in order. It's a subject I'm extremely touchy about, having grown up in London during the IRA bombing campaigns.. and having had friends and family involved in the bombings, as well as myself.. and after my Father came back from Belfast with all manner of wounds thanks to being fired at just for doing his job.. and for the endless calls for the bombing of London by Separatists on both sides of the border, my opinions are just a little clouded.
I'm sorry to hear that and it is perfectly understandable and natural for you to feel the way you do. I'm not one to tell ANYONE they aren't entitled to their opinion, it was just the broadness of the statement that bothered me. I am only Irish biologically. I don't even know how long ago I had ancestors living there (maybe still, probably not), nor will I ever know. I have lived all my life in the relative safety of small towns in Michigan far, far away from that kind of violence. I can only imagine what it would be like to be a witness to (or victim of) what has been going on over there. I'm sorry your dad was a victim of it firsthand and that it thereby affected you tremendously. Like I said, I would never condone the violence perpetrated by the IRA and others. It really was the statement about wishing the annihilation of the whole people that got to me. Thank you for posting a reply and explaining your background. The Arizona desert is exactly where I want to end up.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/17/07 at 8:38 pm
I'm sorry to hear that and it is perfectly understandable and natural for you to feel the way you do. I'm not one to tell ANYONE they aren't entitled to their opinion, it was just the broadness of the statement that bothered me. I am only Irish biologically. I don't even know how long ago I had ancestors living there (maybe still, probably not), nor will I ever know. I have lived all my life in the relative safety of small towns in Michigan far, far away from that kind of violence. I can only imagine what it would be like to be a witness to (or victim of) what has been going on over there. I'm sorry your dad was a victim of it firsthand and that it thereby affected you tremendously. Like I said, I would never condone the violence perpetrated by the IRA and others. It really was the statement about wishing the annihilation of the whole people that got to me. Thank you for posting a reply and explaining your background. The Arizona desert is exactly where I want to end up.
You'll come to understand that I deal in flippant remarks regarding mass genocide quite regularly. It's a quirk.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/18/07 at 12:19 am
Yup.
He left after witnessing a bomb destroy 3 houses, he ended up going and living in the desert out in Arizona for a while. Bunch of kids in one of the houses.
That's terrible! They ain't my people. My last Irish ancestor left the leafy island by 1880.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/18/07 at 12:30 am
That's terrible! They ain't my people. My last Irish ancestor left the leafy island by 1880.
Ah hell, I don't really buy in to the whole ancestry thing (There's SOOOO much inbreeding in my family I'd rather not) but mine split from there too, half to America, half to England. Of course, DNA says they were only there for a short time after the Danish conquests of Ireland, but regardless.
It's ok Max, I don't hold you accountable. ;D
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/18/07 at 8:00 am
You'll come to understand that I deal in flippant remarks regarding mass genocide quite regularly. It's a quirk.
all people who make quirky remarks about genocide should be wiped off the face of the earth! >:(
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/18/07 at 9:38 am
all people who make quirky remarks about genocide should be wiped off the face of the earth! >:(
Weren't you the guy who wanted to kill everyone in the Heritage Foundation?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/18/07 at 4:39 pm
all people who make quirky remarks about genocide should be wiped off the face of the earth! >:(
SHOOT ALL EXTREMISTS!
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Tia on 06/18/07 at 4:42 pm
SHOOT ALL EXTREMISTS!
hangin's too good for em!
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/18/07 at 4:46 pm
Weren't you the guy who wanted to kill everyone in the Heritage Foundation?
Nah, I'd just like to sneak into one of their conventions and spike all their punch bowls with LSD (pure liquid stuff, like back in the Sandoz days).
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/color.gif
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Foo Bar on 06/18/07 at 9:21 pm
SHOOT ALL EXTREMISTS!
hangin's too good for em!
"DEATH TO ALL FANATICS! PROSECUTORS WILL BE VIOLATED!"
- The Management.
But as long as I'm leeching from Illuminatus!, I might as well finish the job.
Nah, I'd just like to sneak into one of their conventions and spike all their punch bowls with LSD (pure liquid stuff, like back in the Sandoz days).
("Now that you know as much as you do about us, Joe, it's time you started working with us. Chicago, as you know, is the Illuminati nerve center in this hemisphere, so we'll use this town to test AUM, a new drug with astonishing properties, if ELF's technicians are correct. It's supposed to turn neophobes into neophiles."
Simon slapped his forehead and shouted "Wow, man!" and started laughing. Pederastia gasped and whistled.
"You look blank, Joe," said Malaclypse. "Has no one explained to you that the human race is divided into two distinct genotypes—neophobes, who reject new ideas and accept only what they have known all their lives, and neophiles, who love new things, change, invention, innovation? For the first four million years of man's history, all humans were neophobes, which is why civilization did not develop. Animals are all neophobes. Only mutation can change them. Instinct is simply the natural behavior of a neophobe. The neophile mutation appeared about a hundred thousand years ago, and speeded up thirty thousand years ago. However, there has never been more than a handful of neophiles anywhere on the planet. The Illuminati themselves sprang from one of the oldest neophile-neo-phobe conflicts on record."
"I take it the Illuminati were trying to hold back progress," said Joe. "Is that their general aim?"
"You're still thinking like a liberal," said Simon. "Nobody gives a f*bleep*k for progress.")
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/18/07 at 9:46 pm
"You're still thinking like a liberal," said Simon. "Nobody gives a f*bleep*k for progress.")
ARTHUR:
Man. Sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
DENNIS:
I'm thirty-seven.
ARTHUR:
I-- what?
DENNIS:
I'm thirty-seven. I'm not old.
ARTHUR:
Well, I can't just call you 'Man'.
DENNIS:
Well, you could say 'Dennis'.
ARTHUR:
Well, I didn't know you were called 'Dennis'.
DENNIS:
Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR:
I did say 'sorry' about the 'old woman', but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS:
What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR:
Well, I am King!
DENNIS:
Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--
WOMAN:
Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh! How d'you do?
ARTHUR:
How do you do, good lady? I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN:
King of the who?
ARTHUR:
The Britons.
WOMAN:
Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR:
Well, we all are. We are all Britons, and I am your king.
WOMAN:
I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS:
You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN:
Oh, there you go bringing class into it again....
(I quoted more of that than I intended. I can't help it. That scene is a great portrait of Right versus Left dialogue. Replace "King" with "Decider.")
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: thereshegoes on 06/19/07 at 9:43 am
We have to understand the complexity of the problem,we can't blame terrorism on religion or culture,that only makes things worse,because it incites prejudice and hides the major differences that exist in the Muslim world which is so big and it covers countries like Mali,Senegal,Turkey,Indonesia and Malaysia,are they on the list too?
The US cannot fight the Islam religion or their believers,the fundamentalist ideology that seems very appealing to a minority of Islamits owes a lot to the Western World and it attracts the same alienated people,from generations before us,who followed fascism and communism.
The Jihad as a political movement was actually a big failure,it was 9/1 and the Iraq war that brought it back,but the real power of Jihad is fairly small even in the Muslim World, the terrorist threat is real and deadly,but its more confined to small isolated attacks that always happened and always will. And Jihadism (do you guys use that word?) defends a new universal doctrine,a way to idealize religion and use it as politics,but more as of modernity and less about a reaffirmation of the Islamic religion and culture. In fact,many of their radical ideas are very westernized,both Al-Qaeda and Jamar-e-Islami took the moral mereting of violence from the left and right extremists of the 20th century Europe,not from Islam.
So what we have it's not a civilization cultural shock,the dangerous people are not the devoted Muslims of the Middle East, but the alienated youth in Hamburg,London or Paris,who see Jihadism as an answer to their quest for identity.The people behind Madrid's 3/11 and London's 7/7 all lived in the western world,they weren't alienated by the lack of democracy in their native or origin countries,what they found alienating was in fact that so called modern and democratic society.
Therefore the main issue,in the long run, is not "fixing" the Middle East(overthere,like someone here said,there's a civil war going on,less about religion more about money),it's bigger than that,it's integrating the people who live here in a better way,without compromising the trust and tolerance that all democratic societies should defend.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: SemperYoda on 06/19/07 at 10:32 am
We have to understand the complexity of the problem,we can't blame terrorism on religion or culture,that only makes things worse,because it incites prejudice and hides the major differences that exist in the Muslim world which is so big and it covers countries like Mali,Senegal,Turkey,Indonesia and Malaysia,are they on the list too?
The US cannot fight the Islam religion or their believers,the fundamentalist ideology that seems very appealing to a minority of Islamits owes a lot to the Western World and it attracts the same alienated people,from generations before us,who followed fascism and communism.
The Jihad as a political movement was actually a big failure,it was 9/1 and the Iraq war that brought it back,but the real power of Jihad is fairly small even in the Muslim World, the terrorist threat is real and deadly,but its more confined to small isolated attacks that always happened and always will. And Jihadism (do you guys use that word?) defends a new universal doctrine,a way to idealize religion and use it as politics,but more as of modernity and less about a reaffirmation of the Islamic religion and culture. In fact,many of their radical ideas are very westernized,both Al-Qaeda and Jamar-e-Islami took the moral mereting of violence from the left and right extremists of the 20th century Europe,not from Islam.
So what we have it's not a civilization cultural shock,the dangerous people are not the devoted Muslims of the Middle East, but the alienated youth in Hamburg,London or Paris,who see Jihadism as an answer to their quest for identity.The people behind Madrid's 3/11 and London's 7/7 all lived in the western world,they weren't alienated by the lack of democracy in their native or origin countries,what they found alienating was in fact that so called modern and democratic society.
Therefore the main issue,in the long run, is not "fixing" the Middle East(overthere,like someone here said,there's a civil war going on,less about religion more about money),it's bigger than that,it's integrating the people who live here in a better way,without compromising the trust and tolerance that all democratic societies should defend.
I cant write that good. :)
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/19/07 at 12:18 pm
In reality, there is nothing that the US (or any other group) can do to stop the current wave of Fundamentalist Islam.
This is because any such change has to come from within Islam itself.
Christianity (and Judaism) also have some violent incidents in their past. However, they all grew out of them. Ironically, Islam was in a "Golden Age" while most of Europe was sunk in the Dark Ages, with constant religious wars going on, each one basically being about "Our religion is right, your's is wrong".
However, as Europe grew out of such savagery, Islam became introspective. They were no longer looking to expand, instead being largely content on looking inward, and finding peach with itself. And just like Spain descended into savagery after the Moorish Occupation, many Islamic countries are following the same course after throwing off the "European Occupation".
And the current wave of Islamic on Islamic violence is very similar to the violence of the Protestant Reformation. You had Catholics attacking Protestants as "Heratics", and Protestants attacking Catholics as "Iconists".
And everybody likes to point fingers at the IRA. But there are a great many Protestant groups that are just as violent. They simply are not as well organized as the IRA.
And I don't believe for a moment that the US involvement in the Middle East has anything to do with the current wave of violence. After all, they have also attacked countries like Spain, which has very little presence over there. Or Russia, which for many decades actually supported them. I always found it ironic that Iran has long had trade agreements with both Russia and the Soviet Union, even though they consider them the "Lesser Satan".
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: thereshegoes on 06/19/07 at 3:27 pm
I cant write that good. :)
Ah thank you,the spell checker is my best friend :)
And I don't believe for a moment that the US involvement in the Middle East has anything to do with the current wave of violence. After all, they have also attacked countries like Spain, which has very little presence over there. Or Russia, which for many decades actually supported them. I always found it ironic that Iran has long had trade agreements with both Russia and the Soviet Union, even though they consider them the "Lesser Satan".
Well i know in Spain,the Muslim community is pretty big,with the major wave of immigration from the north of Africa,and they're not exactly welcomed with open arms,but the attacks had a lot to do with Spain backing up the US in the war,or at least made it seem that way...
And Russia,when it comes to business every deal is a good deal,just like the US,no? ???
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: statsqueen on 06/19/07 at 3:44 pm
Ah thank you,the spell checker is my best friend :)
I think he was referring to the overall content and organization, not just the lack of typos, etc. ;D It was very well-said.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/19/07 at 5:28 pm
Well i know in Spain,the Muslim community is pretty big,with the major wave of immigration from the north of Africa,and they're not exactly welcomed with open arms,but the attacks had a lot to do with Spain backing up the US in the war,or at least made it seem that way...
One thing about the current wave of Extreemism, they will attack anybody or anything that they find even remotely offensive.
All the time you have people attacking Christianity, and other then people complaining about it, that is as far as it goes. You have mainstream "Art" exhibits that show things like the Virgin Mary covered in elephant dung or the Cricifix in a jar of urine, and all you hear is cries that it is offensive. Yet even a political cartoon in Holland is enough to spark riots worldwide if it is against Islam.
I would hate to see what would happen if some artist made an art piece depicting the Koran covered in dung. They could then share an undisclosed hideaway with Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: SemperYoda on 06/19/07 at 7:01 pm
One thing about the current wave of Extreemism, they will attack anybody or anything that they find even remotely offensive.
All the time you have people attacking Christianity, and other then people complaining about it, that is as far as it goes. You have mainstream "Art" exhibits that show things like the Virgin Mary covered in elephant dung or the Cricifix in a jar of urine, and all you hear is cries that it is offensive. Yet even a political cartoon in Holland is enough to spark riots worldwide if it is against Islam.
I would hate to see what would happen if some artist made an art piece depicting the Koran covered in dung. They could then share an undisclosed hideaway with Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie.
Ya, I sure didn't see the problem with what the cartoon that guy made, and I was amazed how bent out of shape they got. Which is why I wonder what exactly is the way they think. If there was one area where a religion made sheep out of the people, it would be the Middle East. I mean, they all pray together and specific times of each day. The prayers are broadcast through loud speakers as far as Ive seen. Its interesting to me to say the least.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/19/07 at 7:59 pm
One thing about the current wave of Extreemism, they will attack anybody or anything that they find even remotely offensive.
All the time you have people attacking Christianity, and other then people complaining about it, that is as far as it goes. You have mainstream "Art" exhibits that show things like the Virgin Mary covered in elephant dung or the Cricifix in a jar of urine, and all you hear is cries that it is offensive. Yet even a political cartoon in Holland is enough to spark riots worldwide if it is against Islam.
I would hate to see what would happen if some artist made an art piece depicting the Koran covered in dung. They could then share an undisclosed hideaway with Sir Ahmed Salman Rushdie.
I heard of something like that going on down at Guantanomo Bay, but it wasn't art for art's sake!
:o
What still grinds my gears about the Rushdie coverage is the media emphasized Khomeini's Fatwa, but buried the fact that most Muslim's did not agree with it.
Khomaniac was the result of radical clerics usurping political power in Iran after secular objectors to the Shah had been routed for 25 years.
Modern Islamic doctrine dictates Muslims must obey the laws of the political state they are in. The only time Muslims may break the law is when the laws prevent them from worshipping. Thus, unless murder is legal, Muslims cannot kill. Rushdie's book, thugh despicable to Islam, did not interfere with an Muslim's freedom to practice his religion. Thanks to the Asshollatolah and a press with an anti-Islam bias, the general public got the idea that Islam sanctions the killing of anybody they believe has defamed the Prophet.
BTW, Yusuf Islam (AKA Cat Stevens) also explained how Muslims must obey the law, but again, the media chose only to quote him citing where in the Koran Khomeini found justification for the Fatwa. What Khomeini did was tantamount to a Christian preacher legitimizing murder of gays based on Leviticus.
::)
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: philbo on 06/20/07 at 6:37 am
Yet even a political cartoon in Holland is enough to spark riots worldwide if it is against Islam.
er... I think you'll find it was Denmark.
Ya, I sure didn't see the problem with what the cartoon that guy made, and I was amazed how bent out of shape they got.
The imam who spread the word was a nasty piece of work, who on considering that the cartoons weren't offensive enough, added a couple of others to make them *really* offensive before sending 'em on round the Islamic world. On reflection, it wasn't that such a large number of muslims got hugely "bent out of shape" at the publication of some cartoons, but that they were on the streets protesting purely on hearsay, having never seen the things. I even wrote a song about it (and another on the general tendency to go out on the streets about pretty much anything).
Modern Islamic doctrine dictates Muslims must obey the laws of the political state they are in. The only time Muslims may break the law is when the laws prevent them from worshipping.
You say "modern" Islamic doctrine: does that mean it wasn't there originally? What I mean is, if a muslim were to revert to a more "traditional" reading of his own religion, then their country's legal system can go hang?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/20/07 at 2:50 pm
The imam who spread the word was a nasty piece of work, who on considering that the cartoons weren't offensive enough, added a couple of others to make them *really* offensive before sending 'em on round the Islamic world. On reflection, it wasn't that such a large number of muslims got hugely "bent out of shape" at the publication of some cartoons, but that they were on the streets protesting purely on hearsay, having never seen the things. I even wrote
I say it goes quite a bit more then that.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm
What amazes me is that they expect everybody in the world to be fully understanding of their religion. And at the same time, they constantly print some pretty vile cartoons about other religions. It is not hard to find some that have appeared in Islamic nations, that revile every other religion and culture in the world. Here is one I recently found that war particularly vile:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/hitler_anne_frank.jpg
I wonder what the protesters would have thought of this cartoon:
http://www.stephbergol.eurologis.com/images/jesumomo.jpg
Translation:
Jesus: Mohamed, my kingdom is not of this world...
Mohamed: Mine is!!!
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/20/07 at 3:00 pm
Fair's fair. If you dish it out, you gotta take it!
Or do you?
Not if your religion is the one true divine Word, and everyone who doesn't agree is an infidel/heathen/heretic or whatever.
And the fact that the Christian Right does not commit suicide bombings doesn't mitigate their own hypocrisy.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/20/07 at 3:21 pm
And the fact that the Christian Right does not commit suicide bombings doesn't mitigate their own hypocrisy.
This is something totally different. And it all points to the hypocracy of those that deride what they call the "Christian Right".
Let's see, here are a few things that the majority of the "Christian Right" believes:
Capitol Punishment is wrong, and should be abolished.
Charity and Welfare should be given to all, reguardless of national origin.
Immigration amnesty is the right and "Christian" thing to do (Just look at the number of Conservative Churches that have declaired themselves "Amnesty Areas").
Everybody has the right to equal access to health care, reguardless of ability to pay.
All people to be treated equally, reguardless of sex, age, race, or national origin.
In fact, Martin Luther King Jr. Would be a classic example of the "Religious Right". After all, he himself stated many times that he would never vote for a Democrat. And he was a minister long before he got involved in the Civil Rights movement.
Mostly, the "Religious Right" is very much a fantasy. A lot of people are more then willing to accept the support of "Religious" people when it comes to one thing (Capitol Punishment), then turn against them because they dissagree on another topic (Abortion).
Trying to portray "The Religious Right" as some kind of monster is just as wrong as trying to say that all Muslims are terrorists (or support terrorists). It is putting on your own stereotype onto a group, and trying to villify them for your own purposes.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/20/07 at 5:07 pm
Capitol Punishment is wrong, and should be abolished.
Charity and Welfare should be given to all, reguardless of national origin.
Immigration amnesty is the right and "Christian" thing to do (Just look at the number of Conservative Churches that have declaired themselves "Amnesty Areas").
Everybody has the right to equal access to health care, reguardless of ability to pay.
All people to be treated equally, reguardless of sex, age, race, or national origin.
Then why do they vote for politicians that stand against all that?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/20/07 at 5:30 pm
Then why do they vote for politicians that stand against all that?
Maybe they vote against other politicians that stand against other things:
Abortion
Extreme Secularism
Promoting "Alternate Lifestyles" as fully acceptable
And a host of other issues. If given a choice, I am sure that when it comes to the "Capitol Punishment Vs. Abortion" debate, you will find that most "Christians" would be more accepting of Capitol Punishment then they would Abortion. And even then, it all comes down to individual choice and personal beliefs.
Religion is not an "All or nothing" belief in this country. Otherwise you would never have people like John Kerry supporting Abortion (which is totally against the beliefs of the Catholic Church).
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/20/07 at 7:20 pm
Maybe they vote against other politicians that stand against other things:
Abortion
Extreme Secularism
Promoting "Alternate Lifestyles" as fully acceptable
And a host of other issues. If given a choice, I am sure that when it comes to the "Capitol Punishment Vs. Abortion" debate, you will find that most "Christians" would be more accepting of Capitol Punishment then they would Abortion. And even then, it all comes down to individual choice and personal beliefs.
Religion is not an "All or nothing" belief in this country. Otherwise you would never have people like John Kerry supporting Abortion (which is totally against the beliefs of the Catholic Church).
I'm sorry, I have observed the proclaimed agenda of the Christian Right by the Christian Right over the past 25 years and they have made it clear they see no conflict between anti-abortion/pro-death penalty. They have also nodded as their pastors howl against tax-supported welfare programs. Evangelicals screamed blue murder about "Heather Has Two Mommies," and maintained a stony silence when Johnny had no breakfast.
I don't agree with them on the abortion issue, but I respect the "pro-life" conviction as long as "pro-life" extends to the life after birth, which it does not seem to in the case of the fundamentalist conservatives.
I suppose if I believed abortion was equivalent to to the Holocaust, I might have to put up with the un-Christian platform of the Republican party if there was a chance the GOP would one day make abortion illegal. Is that what's going on here? If what you say is correct, I done been deceived about the Christian Right!
:D
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/21/07 at 11:02 am
I'm sorry, I have observed the proclaimed agenda of the Christian Right by the Christian Right over the past 25 years and they have made it clear they see no conflict between anti-abortion/pro-death penalty.
Then why do you see outside the gates of every execution, throngs of Christians? In particular, Catholics and Baptists. To a great many Christians, Capitol Punishment stands against a lot of what they stand for, especially considering the basis of their faith is around somebody who was executed by the state.
However, when faced with the moral dilema "Do I support life for a murderer or an unborn child", they will almost always take the lesser of two evils in their view, and grudgingly support Capitol Punishment. And this all revolves around a key debate around abortion: When is a fetus a child? To those that oppose abortion, it is at conception (or during the first trimester for those that accept limited abortion). Of course if somebody sees a fetus as nothing but a mass of tissue, they don't understand the passion of those who oppose it.
But that "grudging support" for Capitol Punishment simply means they do not view it as important as abortion. It does not stop them from fighting to end the Death Penalty. But for some reason, that is not covered anywhere near as much their opposition to Abortion.
Of course, DP is yet another topic that surprisingly crosses party lines. 80% of Republicans support it, as do 58% of Democrats. Even 65% of Independents support it. So no matter how you look at it, the majority accept it across party lines.
They have also nodded as their pastors howl against tax-supported welfare programs. Evangelicals screamed blue murder about "Heather Has Two Mommies," and maintained a stony silence when Johnny had no breakfast.
I don't agree with them on the abortion issue, but I respect the "pro-life" conviction as long as "pro-life" extends to the life after birth, which it does not seem to in the case of the fundamentalist conservatives.
I suppose if I believed abortion was equivalent to to the Holocaust, I might have to put up with the un-Christian platform of the Republican party if there was a chance the GOP would one day make abortion illegal. Is that what's going on here? If what you say is correct, I done been deceived about the Christian Right!
:D
I can't remember ever hearing a preacher complaining about welfare. I am sure you may have some that complain about welfare abuse, but not welfare itself.
Mostly what we have here is somebody with a totally different moral and philosophical belief, who is trying to look at a group (s)he simply does not understand. It extends to another member of this board, who is so atheistic in their belief, that they simply can't understand why somebody would be religious. People simply look at things in different ways, and some of those simply have the need to put everybody who does not follow their belief in another camp: Us Vs. Them.
I guess the biggest difference between the two is the level of extreems that each side is willing to go to. I doubt that abortion will ever be made illegal, and most Republicans would agree that it should not. But that does not mean the acceptance of "Abortion on demand" either. Plus you have the strange stances that the "Far Left" seems to take, which leaves those that are religious very confused.
You can't spank your child for bad behavior, yet you are responsible for anything they do wrong. You have to give permission for almost everything your child does, except when it comes to abortion, which seems to be the only medical procedure a minor can have without parental concent. Then you have the even "Farther Left" groups, that want do do things like remove tax-exempt status from churches and make everything 100% secular.
In recent history, we have had 2 ministers run for president. One of them was "Far Left", and the other was "Far Right". And not surprisingly, neither one of them got even close to getting a nomination. And even as Conservative as I am in many areas, I could not stomach either of them either. For as important as my faith is to me, it does not play any role in how I vote (other then being the basis for my "moral compass"). And if some minister tried to tell me that welfare was wrong, I would tell him to his face he is an idiot.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: philbo on 06/21/07 at 5:00 pm
To a great many Christians, Capitol Punishment stands against a lot of what they stand for, especially considering the basis of their faith is around somebody who was executed by the state.
er... is Capitol punishment what is carried out in Washington DC? ;)
Mostly what we have here is somebody with a totally different moral and philosophical belief, who is trying to look at a group (s)he simply does not understand. It extends to another member of this board, who is so atheistic in their belief, that they simply can't understand why somebody would be religious.
Yep, that's me...
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/21/07 at 7:38 pm
Hackneyed though the phrase is, actions speak louder than words.
Human suffering in this country increased dramatically under Reagan, but you won't find any evangelicals--at least not those who get a say in the media--condemning Ronald Reagan for slashing programs that helped the poor and needy (including disabled veterans!)
The Christian Right had a long list of "we hate Clinton" items, but the passage of "welfare reform" was not among them.
George W. Bush has no regard whatsoever for the suffering of others (unless they're fetuses), but the Christian Right is even more gung-ho about Dubya then they were about Reagan!
Jimmy Carter is a born again Christian, and they hate that guy!
The people the Christian Right/evangilicals/fundamentalists put up as their spokesmen emphasize Old Testament wrath above Jesus' teachings of selflessness, charity, and peace. One of their top dogs, Pat Robertson, recently advocated the murder of Hugo Chavez.
So I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression about the CR, it's jus that it would appear....
Oh never mind!
::)
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Foo Bar on 06/21/07 at 10:09 pm
However, when faced with the moral dilema "Do I support life for a murderer or an unborn child", they will almost always take the lesser of two evils in their view, and grudgingly support Capitol Punishment. And this all revolves around a key debate around abortion: When is a fetus a child? To those that oppose abortion, it is at conception (or during the first trimester for those that accept limited abortion). Of course if somebody sees a fetus as nothing but a mass of tissue, they don't understand the passion of those who oppose it.
But that "grudging support" for Capitol Punishment simply means they do not view it as important as abortion. It does not stop them from fighting to end the Death Penalty. But for some reason, that is not covered anywhere near as much their opposition to Abortion.
Snarky answer: Fundies are fine with killing smart sociopaths. It's the killing of the non-sentient critters (specifically blastocysts, foetuses, and Terri Schiavo) people that they have a problem with. And who can blame them -- Fundies have to look out for their own kind!
Serious answer: Thanks for articulating the difference. I personally think the anti-abortion-but-pro-deathpenalty argument is a load of Doublethink, but as someone who's both pro-abortion (human rights are for sentients; neither blastocysts nor foetuses demonstrate sentience, therefore both are fair game) and pro-Capital punishment (some criminal acts are evidence of a sentient mind (which had otherwise been deserving of human rights) running software so irrevocably incompatible with our civilization that the only rational move (there's the Doublethink in my argument!) is to snuff it out) that I'm no less guity of Doublethink myself.
If I may paraphrase both our arguments, sentience is what I (pro-abortion, pro-DP) value, and innocence is what the Fundies (anti-abortion, pro-DP) value, as our respective determinance of who is privy to the right (heh, I said privy") to life?
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/21/07 at 10:11 pm
Hackneyed though the phrase is, actions speak louder than words.
Human suffering in this country increased dramatically under Reagan, but you won't find any evangelicals--at least not those who get a say in the media--condemning Ronald Reagan for slashing programs that helped the poor and needy (including disabled veterans!)
The Christian Right had a long list of "we hate Clinton" items, but the passage of "welfare reform" was not among them.
George W. Bush has no regard whatsoever for the suffering of others (unless they're fetuses), but the Christian Right is even more gung-ho about Dubya then they were about Reagan!
Jimmy Carter is a born again Christian, and they hate that guy!
The people the Christian Right/evangilicals/fundamentalists put up as their spokesmen emphasize Old Testament wrath above Jesus' teachings of selflessness, charity, and peace. One of their top dogs, Pat Robertson, recently advocated the murder of Hugo Chavez.
So I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression about the CR, it's jus that it would appear....
Oh never mind!
::)
As I've said time and time again, the Christian Right is a blight on A) The Face of the Earth. B) Real Conservatives everywhere. C) America.
Time and time again you'll get one of these evangelical telemarketers standing up and proclaiming that the word of God endorses or derides such and such, I just feel like taking some matches and showing them that God went sent rain when the church is burning.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: MaxwellSmart on 06/22/07 at 11:20 pm
As I've said time and time again, the Christian Right is a blight on A) The Face of the Earth. B) Real Conservatives everywhere. C) America.
That's because the Christian Right is not a religious movement at all. It is a political movement, a stalking horse for big business, which in turn has made itself a blight on:
A. The face of the Earth.
b. Real conservatives everywhere.
c. America.
Do not confuse big business with:
a. Entrepeneurship.
b. Free enterprise.
c. Competitive marketplace.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/23/07 at 7:22 am
That's because the Christian Right is not a religious movement at all. It is a political movement, a stalking horse for big business, which in turn has made itself a blight on:
A. The face of the Earth.
b. Real conservatives everywhere.
c. America.
Do not confuse big business with:
a. Entrepeneurship.
b. Free enterprise.
c. Competitive marketplace.
Uuurrggghhh, I tread a razor here.
Yes, you are correct in that huge corporations stifle free enterprise and a competitive marketplace by having their enormous mergers ignored by the monopolies and fair trading commissions.
You're not however correct in that big business stifles entrepreneurship, it does to a high extent as companies throw millions at researches trying to create new products to make hundreds of millions. Is it however, the right sort of entrepreneurial spirit? That's the question there.
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: Mushroom on 06/23/07 at 9:37 am
You're not however correct in that big business stifles entrepreneurship, it does to a high extent as companies throw millions at researches trying to create new products to make hundreds of millions. Is it however, the right sort of entrepreneurial spirit? That's the question there.
Now comes my snarky "tired of coprolite" response.
How many of you own "Name Brand" computers? By average, 9/10 on here use computers by some kind of name brand. Yet each and every one of you has a small local company that strugles in order to make a buck. So you all have your little "feel good" posts about not shopping at WallStore, or how big business really runs everything. Yet you blindly go ahead and ignore local businesses.
Think about it. How many of you go to a local seamstress to get your clothes? And how many of you regularly shop at small businesses? Not very many I bet.
*shrugs and wanders away*
Subject: Re: Islam on the move
Written By: La Roche on 06/23/07 at 5:02 pm
Now comes my snarky "tired of coprolite" response.
How many of you own "Name Brand" computers? By average, 9/10 on here use computers by some kind of name brand. Yet each and every one of you has a small local company that strugles in order to make a buck. So you all have your little "feel good" posts about not shopping at WallStore, or how big business really runs everything. Yet you blindly go ahead and ignore local businesses.
Think about it. How many of you go to a local seamstress to get your clothes? And how many of you regularly shop at small businesses? Not very many I bet.
*shrugs and wanders away*
Now comes my blatant admission of hypocrisy.
There are very very few stores I refuse to shop at.. actually, Wal-Mart and Borders are pretty much it. That being said, of course I'm going to go to a big store or a big company to quell my consumer desires. I'm not exactly rich, if I want something, I'm generally going to try and find a nice balance between affordability and quality. Yeah, ya know, if I go to my local electronics store and have them build a computer catering to my needs, it's gonna be great, I'm gonna love it.. I'm also going to pay top whack for it.. and I just can't do that. Even though it'll last longer, the disposable income isn't there at that point in time.
That being said, I do actually buy a lot of things at local stores, I'm somewhat spoiled in that regard, within walking distance there is a jeweler, a hardware store, a family run grocery store, a small music shop and a bunch of other things. I probably use these small businesses for 40-50% of what I purchase.. and they're competitive.