My thoughts and prayers, go out to all of the families, who lost their loved owns, during this sad event.  :\'(

Mine too.

I just HIW something like this happens. :\'( :(

vis-a-vis "lockdowns," here's an irony -- the kids who jumped out of the windows and made it outdoors were the most likely to survive.

So do I.

This might be "just" a freaky coincidence, but I don't think so. Here's my view:

The first victim was the actual target. Shooter leaves campus for a few hours, and then returns to make more random victims. Why? Because killing just one would never get the attention he wanted. That's what they all want, innit - attention?

So, most likely IMHO, the shooter will turn out to be a student who was dumped by his girlfriend.




God I hope I'm wrong...'cause if I'm right...what's next?  :-\\




Word's out...the shooter was a student...a 23 year old Korean.

I just learned that Virginia has one of the most laxed gun control laws in the US. Even background checks on buyers aren't required. Some crazy ex-mental hospital patient could easily get hold of a firearm and go on some rampage such as this. Living in a country with rather tight gun control laws it's very hard to comprehend how laxed they are over there.

It's also a sad coincidence how this happened 4 days out from the Columbine shootings of April 20, 1999. the Red Lake High School massacre also occurred around this time (March I think).


I think these guns may be stolen. Their ID numbers were scratched out of the guns.

Maybe spring break went badly for the gunmen in these cases - ban spring break! 

but don't you think they should have made more effort to check the gun man was either captured or had left the campus? 


That's what bugs me. Early in the morning they said on TV that they HAD the gunman in custody. The news said the "police are reported to have the gunman in custody" (with one dead and 3-4 injured). Why would they say that? Maybe they arrested someone not related and thought it was over? ? ?

And I agree, someone is going to be in a mess of trouble for not locking down the campus as soon as the first shooting was reported.
If the gunman was not in custody, why would they send out emails to alert people? Why wouldn't they lock down the campus and cancel classes? How could they allow all these students and teachers to proceed with their day as if nothing had happened?

Furthermore, why wouldn't they be on a high security alert anyway seen as how in the past two weeks the school has received bomb threats?
I know they can't link them - but it kind of makes you think.




Oh yeah, when they had the press conference earlier, I was in disbelief that the first shooting had occurred that much earlier and yet there was no real lock down.

There was a girl on TV here earlier at Wash U who's from there and who's friends go there, it just occurred to me that I was in the same Economics class as her when I did a couple evening classes at Wash U. I think I still have her number, I might give her a call tomorrow.





I wasn't surprised that they didn't close the campus after the first shooting.  They just assumed that it was an isolated incident.  Domestic problems like that happen all the time and don't turn into massacres.
  Thank you Jacks!


I just started watching The View and heard them blame the administration and I felt the need to respond....

My heart goes out to the victims and their families of Monday's horrible tragedy. My heart also goes out to the administration and first responders to the incident. 

I am a police dispatcher at a university in California and know what a tragedy like the one at VT would have done to our campus.  There are a few things to consider before harshly judging the officials for what some deem to be inaction.

If the shootings were over two hours apart then it would impossible for the people on scene at dormitory to predict the gunman would wait two hours before resuming his killing spree.

The investigators would have done sweep of the residence hall and the surrounding area - interviewing witness to get a description and searching for the person responsible. Had they "hit the fire alarms" as Rosie O'Donnell suggested- everyone inside the buildings would have exited and stood en mass in the courtyards. Not only would it be impossible to isolate a suspect from the group, it would have created easy access to a potentially greater number of victims. 

Unfortunately, my university does not have a system in place where you can email the entire student & faculty body.  At best the university could contact each residence hall individually and have them post staff at each exit keeping the students inside. This, however, does not account for the thousands of students who live off campus- not to mention the faculty and staff who drive from their homes onto campus.

Its not an elementary or a high school. There is no Public Address system. And again, the philosophy is, if the event is over an hour old then the suspect most likely fled the area. It is a horrible, horrible thing to have occurred but please don't blame the administration or law enforcement. They did the best could with information they had. This is not something easy to plan for.

Here is one of the killer's plays, pretty angry stuff...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

but don't you think they should have made more effort to check the gun man was either captured or had left the campus? 


More of an effort?  How do we know how large or small their effort to find the gunman was?  We don't know what happened there.  Just because they didn't immeadiately find the guy doesn't mean they weren't trying.  I'm willing to bet that in most murder investigations it takes days or weeks on average to find the murder suspect.  So why are we bashing these guys for not being superheros?



This is the way I look at it.  A crazy guy lost it and took out his anger on a bunch of innocent people and yet the only thing the people in the media can do is blame the college.  They are blaming the college!!!  I think the college did they best they could in such an f-ed up situation.  As far as I'm concerned, the only one to blame here is the gunman. 

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/sad3.gif

This is the worst mass murder via gunfire in U.S. history.  It is worse than Columbine, and even worse than the massacre perpetrated by Charles Whitman at UT Austin in 1966.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
Whitman's mass murder  is more analagous to the tragedy at Virginia Tech than any other other.

However, the massacre at Virginia Tech even exceeds the death tolls at Luby's Cafateria (1991, Kileen, TX, 23 killed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre
and at the San Ysidro McDonald's (1984, San Diego, CA, 21 killed)*

At Virginia Tech, 33 people are confirmed dead.  Let's hope and pray none of the critically wounded die, which would raise this deadliest toll even higher.

I emphasize shooting because far more died by bombing at the Murrah Building (Oklahoma City, 1995) and in the 9/11 attacks.

Let's not lose sight of the numerous wounded individuals who might suffer from their injuries for the rest of their lives.  Also consider how much grief this massacre causes.  Think of how many familes, loved ones, and friends there are among 33 people?  The devastation is mind boggling.  

Perhaps this will help us understand a little better what Iraqis endure week in and week out.  I say this not to diminish the magnitude of the tragedy at Virginia Tech, but to emphasize the shock and grief that comes with all human carnage.

The inevitable debate over gun laws has started.  Certainly, if guns were nigh impossible to obtain, it is less likely that Cho Seuing-hui would have had them.  However, I think a mass murder of 33 people is separate from the general pathology of gun violence we suffer in the U.S.  This is not homicide in domestic violence or in the commission of other crimes, which accounts for most of the gun deaths in this country.  You could call it a crime of passion or a revenge killing, but it is not the same as a husband killing his wife and her lover, or one man shooting another over a game of poker.  CSh was out for that madman's revenge on the whole world, which so many contemplate but--mercifully--so few carry out.

Surely, the school's emergency response was incompetent, but who is really prepared for this kind of bloodshed.  Well, now institutions might start preparing themselves to respond to a gunman showering the place with bullets, and isn't it sad it comes to this?  Some commentators have suggested CSh's professors should have responded to his disturbing writings?  Come on!  How many college students write sick stories for composition class?  How many of them get an automatic weapon and open fire?  When was the last time Quentin Tarentino climbed a tower and mowed down passers-by?  Did Steven King ever split somebody's skull with an ax?  I once wrote a short story about bombing the administration building for creative writing.  Cracked my professor up.  She gave me an A.  I suppose now she'd be expected to turn the documents over to the cops and I'd be sent for 30 days observation.
::)

And that's what's really frightening.  You don't know who's really going to do it and when.  Who do we expect?  What if this lunatic's name was not Cho Seuing-hui but Mohammed El Hassan?  Just imagine the paranoia and vigilantism!

I wasn't shocked.  The news broke just as I was getting out of work.  They had the TV in the waiting room tuned to CNN.  I looked at the headline and just shook my head sadly and walked out.  I wish we lived in a society where I would stand there stunned, saying, "No!  This can't be really happening!"  But we don't.

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/tearyeyed.gif

*note Wikipedia has already acknowledged this.

I hadn't read the school paper/play that he wrote when I put the link to it on my previous post. I have since read it, (it's very short)...

It's disturbing, (and for an English major, it's really poorly done - REALLY bad!) I majored in English and if I turned in something that bad in college, I think my teachers/professors would have forced me to change my major!

      Anyway, this kid didn't sound like a college level kid & certainly didn't sound normal.

I hadn't read the school paper/play that he wrote when I put the link to it on my previous post. I have since read it, (it's very short)...

It's disturbing, (and for an English major, it's really poorly done - REALLY bad!) I majored in English and if I turned in something that bad in college, I think my teachers/professors would have forced me to change my major!

      Anyway, this kid didn't sound like a college level kid & certainly didn't sound normal.



I agree, it's p*ss poor writing, but I don't think it's indicative of the mind of a mass murderer.  He just sounds like your average emotionally-stunted American 23-year-old lazily exhaling the noxious off-gassing of what passes for dialog in our toxic pop culture.  All it shows me is he's soused in the same obsession with pedophilia and contempt for men with low incomes that you can get from your average azzwhole stand-up comic on Comedy Central.  If I was Cho's professor, I wouldn't even grade that assignment.  I would tell him to write me another one and use his own frikkin' brain!
::)

Sounds rather Hamlet-ish to me (the play).

My heart goes out to the family of the students.....

I agree, it's p*ss poor writing, but I don't think it's indicative of the mind of a mass murderer.  He just sounds like your average emotionally-stunted American 23-year-old lazily exhaling the noxious off-gassing of what passes for dialog in our toxic pop culture.  All it shows me is he's soused in the same obsession with pedophilia and contempt for men with low incomes that you can get from your average azzwhole stand-up comic on Comedy Central.  If I was Cho's professor, I wouldn't even grade that assignment.  I would tell him to write me another one and use his own frikkin' brain!
::)


Okay, I'll go with that!

Here is one of the killer's plays, pretty angry stuff...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html



what a bunch of utter garbage.

   Thank you Jacks!


I just started watching The View and heard them blame the administration and I felt the need to respond....

My heart goes out to the victims and their families of Monday's horrible tragedy. My heart also goes out to the administration and first responders to the incident. 

I am a police dispatcher at a university in California and know what a tragedy like the one at VT would have done to our campus.  There are a few things to consider before harshly judging the officials for what some deem to be inaction.

If the shootings were over two hours apart then it would impossible for the people on scene at dormitory to predict the gunman would wait two hours before resuming his killing spree.

The investigators would have done sweep of the residence hall and the surrounding area - interviewing witness to get a description and searching for the person responsible. Had they "hit the fire alarms" as Rosie O'Donnell suggested- everyone inside the buildings would have exited and stood en mass in the courtyards. Not only would it be impossible to isolate a suspect from the group, it would have created easy access to a potentially greater number of victims. 

Unfortunately, my university does not have a system in place where you can email the entire student & faculty body.  At best the university could contact each residence hall individually and have them post staff at each exit keeping the students inside. This, however, does not account for the thousands of students who live off campus- not to mention the faculty and staff who drive from their homes onto campus.

Its not an elementary or a high school. There is no Public Address system. And again, the philosophy is, if the event is over an hour old then the suspect most likely fled the area. It is a horrible, horrible thing to have occurred but please don't blame the administration or law enforcement. They did the best could with information they had. This is not something easy to plan for.


I apologize snoz, for I was venting frustration and unfortunately it came down to me looking for someone to blame. I do understand that it is very difficult in this situation because like many have said, they believed it to be a domestic dispute. My concern was that they didn't notify anyone until it was too late.

With a situation like this - I would hope that everyone (faculty at least) would have been told in some sort of fashion so that at the beginning of classes, students could have be informed of the situation. Obviously they couldn't have said the individual was caught - because the police were only interviewing a person of interest, but the students would have at least known something had happened.

Who knew that the outcome would be what it is... If some of the students had a feeling that knew something like this was going to happen with this kid, you would think logically that they would have tried to do something to help him. Unfortunately, it doesn't work this way. If you step outside of your clique to defend someone or help someone, surely you will become the outcast that you have helped create so many times over. Yes, it is easy to claim that he felt like a social outcast and had no friends and such, but personally, I am getting tired of hearing it. It is being overused and misused, and the whole EMO thing to me is getting old, fast. (This is my view and I am sure it is a bit skewed)

Sure, a teacher said he needed to see a counsellor, but like it has also been said, they couldn't force him to go. Now they think he might have had schizophrenia or some other mental problems. Why do they look for justification for what he did? In finding this justification, is it going to help the families of those lost in this plight feel better? I think not....

My heart goes out to the families and victims of this most unfortunate tragedy.


I just learned that Virginia has one of the most laxed gun control laws in the US. Even background checks on buyers aren't required. Some crazy ex-mental hospital patient could easily get hold of a firearm and go on some rampage such as this. Living in a country with rather tight gun control laws it's very hard to comprehend how laxed they are over there.


I've no idea where you got that information: it's grossly inaccurate. I live in VA and there most definitely are background checks for purchasing guns - they are run through the state police department.

"Roanoke Firearms owner John Markell said his shop sold the Glock and a box of practice ammo to Cho 36 days ago for $571.

'He was a nice, clean-cut college kid. We won't sell a gun if we have any idea at all that a purchase is suspicious,' Markell said." - AOL article

Most guns dealers I dealt with have a similar mindset. Though background checks are not required on private sales, the point is moot in this case.

I posted a host of gun control laws a while ago, but this isn't the time or place for that.

I apologize snoz, for I was venting frustration and unfortunately it came down to me looking for someone to blame. I do understand that it is very difficult in this situation because like many have said, they believed it to be a domestic dispute. My concern was that they didn't notify anyone until it was too late.


No need to apologize I understand your frustration. Working in law enforcement tho its hard to hear critism of those who do the best they can with the information they have.  Resources are so limited and if they had a person of interest in custody who was not the shooter its difficult because it takes time to determine these things.

You know people blame his professors too but if every student who turned in crap was investigated as a potentiall threat (between all the moody artists and posers) there'd be no time for real police work.

Someone in this thread made a comment about gun control....

Not to make light of horrible tragedy but Chris Rock made a statement once about gun control. Something about not needing gun control but bullet control. If a bullet cost $500 you're gonna think twice about using it... there is some truth to that.

Peace

Sounds rather Hamlet-ish to me (the play).


(voice=KylesMom)What what *what*?(/voice)

Oh, wait, I get it.  You've pile-driven a couple of permanent magnets on either side of the Bard and wrapped a mile of copper wire around his spinning corpse and thereby solved the energy crisis!  Cool.  I can dig that.

But if you seriously suggested this guy's writing resembled Hamlet, then this guy's funny cat caption is up to par with Hunter S. Thompson pointing out that "We can't stop here, this is bat country!" with a topping of with Jack Kerouac's "On the Road".

(Mods, nuke that URL on language grounds if ya feel like it.  My beef isn't with Mama_K, it's with the shooter's abuse of the English language and the fact that I read his "screenplay" and I want that 5 minutes of my life back, and since that ain't gonna happen, I figure the five minutes entitles me to a right and proper drunken rant scribbled onto someone else's Intarweb server.  At five minutes per view, if the shooter's screenplay gets him a million postdirtbaggous views via TSG, that's 5,000,000 minutes, at least 80000 hours, and ten more person-years that could otherwise have been spent on masturbation, wasted reading his dreck. 32 kills is enough, let's not give this wannabe the extra 0.25 kills' worth of bonus points.)

Oh, and Cho?  Let me put this in words that an English grad oughta be able grok in its fullness: in case tonight you has forgetted where you is eating, you is dining in hell, and you cannot has cheezburger.  (Cheezburger?  Sausage McMuffin?  I has more guts in single link of sausage I buys from butcher than you has in entire lower intestine, including me colon!)  Anyways, back to the 300 cliches and other silly references to mythology.  Ax?  Call you Ismael?  Hah, I ax you this -- has you make ready you breakfast?  Is it me beer talking.  Is madness?  Is SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA?  Not yours.  You profession is not soldier.  You profession is not writer.  You profession is not cheesburger eatah.  You profession still, as always, be wormfood.  Yuo == the suck.

My heart goes out to the families and victims of this most unfortunate tragedy.

I've no idea where you got that information: it's grossly inaccurate. I live in VA and there most definitely are background checks for purchasing guns

Ah, right. Maybe it was the show I was part-watching. I only caught that part about them mentioning the lack of GC laws. Or maybe the host was inaccurate?

Ah, right. Maybe it was the show I was part-watching. I only caught that part about them mentioning the lack of GC laws. Or maybe the host was inaccurate?


This (the laxness of gun control laws in Virginia) was also reported in the U.K.  According to the report I heard it is supposed to be about the easiest place in the US to buy a gun and they do not do background checks.  I'll see if I can find a copy of this somewhere.

(voice=KylesMom)What what *what*?(/voice)

Oh, wait, I get it.  You've pile-driven a couple of permanent magnets on either side of the Bard and wrapped a mile of copper wire around his spinning corpse and thereby solved the energy crisis!  Cool.  I can dig that.

But if you seriously suggested this guy's writing resembled Hamlet, then this guy's funny cat caption is up to par with Hunter S. Thompson pointing out that "We can't stop here, this is bat country!" with a topping of with Jack Kerouac's "On the Road".


Look at the basic plot:  son & stepfather in a dispute, father "died" (suspiciously in the mind of the son), mother remarries 1 month after death, son obviously upset by father's death, son accuses stepfather of killing father, son sets up stepfather, strange mother-son relationship......and, I don't know if you've ever taken a writing class, but the professors will often assign writings based on other works.  I don't see how you can deny the "Hamlet-esque" plot of the work ???

Putting his anger and poor choices in adjectives aside, his writing sounds terribly immature. His plot seems to me one that a child half his age would create. It is hard to believe that this man was in college.

Speaking as a teacher, I would find his writings to be immature for a college senior. I would expect the writings to come from 9th graders, not someone on the way out of college.

Speaking as a teacher, I would find his writings to be immature for a college senior. I would expect the writings to come from 9th graders, not someone on the way out of college.


Exactly.

It's far more difficult to get a gun in Virginia than it is in many states. Most of the states around here, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas etc have very lax gun control laws.

More of an effort?  How do we know how large or small their effort to find the gunman was?  We don't know what happened there.  Just because they didn't immeadiately find the guy doesn't mean they weren't trying.  I'm willing to bet that in most murder investigations it takes days or weeks on average to find the murder suspect.  So why are we bashing these guys for not being superheros?



This is the way I look at it.  A crazy guy lost it and took out his anger on a bunch of innocent people and yet the only thing the people in the media can do is blame the college.  They are blaming the college!!!  I think the college did they best they could in such an f-ed up situation.  As far as I'm concerned, the only one to blame here is the gunman. 
i think the "lack of effort" stmms from the wrong guy being questioned--the boyfriend of one of the victims,i think.

Apparently Cho mailed stuff to NBC news who is now working in conjunction with the police in the investigation.

Just off the wire....

Apparently Cho mailed stuff to NBC news who is now working in conjunction with the police in the investigation.

Just off the wire....



There's nothing worse than a mass murderer who wants publicity.  That boy was defiantly f***ed up.

Look at the basic plot:  son & stepfather in a dispute, father "died" (suspiciously in the mind of the son), mother remarries 1 month after death, son obviously upset by father's death, son accuses stepfather of killing father, son sets up stepfather, strange mother-son relationship......and, I don't know if you've ever taken a writing class, but the professors will often assign writings based on other works.  I don't see how you can deny the "Hamlet-esque" plot of the work ???


more like Hamlet on Crack with a meth chaser if you ask me!

Speaking as a teacher, I would find his writings to be immature for a college senior. I would expect the writings to come from 9th graders, not someone on the way out of college.

I spend a lot of time around undergrads.  Today's college seniors are about as mature as I remember my 9th grade classmates being back in the '80s.  A lot of them are functionally illiterate too.  You should hear the way the read the nooz on the college radio station!

Cho's poor grammar and spelling come as no more of a surprise than his lack of maturity.  There is no indication in that sketch suggesting he is a psychopath.  I have not heard the details of the "manifesto" he sent to NBC.  That might be more indicative.

"Hamlet"?  More like Omlet...I mean, his eggs were scrambled!

OK, so Virginia does background checks.  Did it not phase the gun dealers that Cho was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility in 2005?  Did they just miss that detail?  Or did they say, "Aw, what the heck, everybody melts down now and again, doesn't mean we can't trust him with automatic weapons!"
::)

OK, so Virginia does background checks.  Did it not phase the gun dealers that Cho was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility in 2005?  Did they just miss that detail?  Or did they say, "Aw, what the heck, everybody melts down now and again, doesn't mean we can't trust him with automatic weapons!"
::)

Unfortunately, VA doesn't have the mental background check on their system.
So naturally, this guy didn't have any flags at all.

Unfortunately, VA doesn't have the mental background check on their system.
So naturally, this guy didn't have any flags at all.

Ooops!
:o

Unfortunately, VA doesn't have the mental background check on their system.
So naturally, this guy didn't have any flags at all.


They will now....once again crisis management in action.  REACTION in place of ACTION... always when its too late.... :\'(

Unfortunately, VA doesn't have the mental background check on their system.
So naturally, this guy didn't have any flags at all.


He had run-in with the law before all of this.  That should have been a flag.

He had run-in with the law before all of this.  That should have been a flag.


I'm willing to bet that run-in never ended up on his record.

I'm willing to bet that run-in never ended up on his record.


Ignoring the obvious. :P  The guy was a ticking time bomb everyone who knew him was aware of that.

Ignoring the obvious. :P  The guy was a ticking time bomb everyone who knew him was aware of that.


A lot of people with psychological problems get called "ticking time bombs."  Very few people diagnosed with psychiatric disorders are violent, even though they might present as paranoid, irritable, withdrawn, or nervous.  Even among the few people with psychiatric disorders who are diagnosed with anti-social disorders, the number of these who will even attempt a homicide is tiny.

I was never diagnosed as "anti-social" in any way.  However, when I was in my early 20s one of the campus loudmouths repeatedly said I looked like an "ax murderer" who might "start gunning down people at random."  I was merely depressed and irritable at the time.  I had a lot of anger coursing through my veins, but no tendancy to act out.  Derek had me pegged all wrong.  Ironically, friends of mine said Derek looked like Charles Manson--and he did.  Also, I did not go to Mexico for spring break and get stopped on the way back by border agents who confiscated a machete, two bullwhips, and four bottles of tequila--that was Derek!
;D

Of course, it's important not to deny that a small number of people with paranoid schizophrenia and anti-social personality disorders can be extremely violent and dangerous, and most definitely capable of carrying out the most horrific crimes imaginable.

That said, I don't know Cho's diagnosis.

I really wanted to stay away from this thread, but...


OK, so Virginia does background checks.  Did it not phase the gun dealers that Cho was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric facility in 2005?  Did they just miss that detail?  Or did they say, "Aw, what the heck, everybody melts down now and again, doesn't mean we can't trust him with automatic weapons!"
::)


Max, care to site your source that says he was involuntarily committed? I looked and found this (bolding added by me):

"An acquaintance of Cho later contacted authorities concerned he might be suicidal, reports CBS News correspondent Sharyn Alfonsi. It was at that point he was taken voluntarily to a mental health facility, Carilion Saint Albans Behavioral Health Center in Christiansburg, Va. But a day later, a medical evaluation found Cho’s "insight and judgment" normal and he was approved for outpatient treatment.

Because Cho went to the facility voluntarily, the incident did not show up on Cho's background check, allowing Cho to buy the two guns he needed to carry out the killings." - Full article here.

I take it you've never filled out an ATF Form 4473 before.


It's far more difficult to get a gun in Virginia than it is in many states. Most of the states around here, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas etc have very lax gun control laws.


Quite correct. According to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun violence, 32 states scored a D or worse with their gun control laws. Virginia got a C-.

Does the system for checking potential gun buyers have flaws? Yes, of course it does. Gun show loopholes should be closed, and mandating illegal drug screens would be a step in the right direction. Will any system be good enough to eliminate tragedies like this from happening again? Unequivocally, no.


He had run-in with the law before all of this.  That should have been a flag.


From the same article I cited earlier: "According to Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum, in November of 2005, he made contact with a female student through telephone calls and in person. The student called it "annoying" but declined to press charges."

A run in with rent a cops that didn't result with any convictions, let alone a trial.  Sorry, but "Annoying" hardly throws up a huge red flag.

Not that I defend or support this Cho douche at all. I guess what I'm getting at is that, aside from being irritated on this whole story, is that some people are just seriously messed up in the head and are going to do things like this regardless the laws or precautions that are in place.

I doubt I'll get an answer on these questions... but why do I get the sense that the blame being shifted away from Cho? Because he's dead? He's the one who went apes*** and killed 32 people (I don't count him in the death toll since he doesn't deserve to be remembered amongst them). He's the one responsible. Do we live in a society where others have to be blamed for one seriously screwed up individual?

/rant off

It's Cho's fault.  People are dead because he had several screws loose.  End of story.

Stop politicizing the tragedy, it's not worth it.

they said he was involuntarily committed on the radio when i was listening today, too. i believe he voluntarily sought counseling earlier but then was committed later.

this was in the ap story i just read.

"Earlier in the day, authorities disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho was accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the student opened fire. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.Earlier in the day, authorities disclosed that more than a year before the massacre, Cho was accused of sending unwanted messages to two women and was taken to a psychiatric hospital on a magistrate's orders and was pronounced a danger to himself. But he was released with orders to undergo outpatient treatment.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the student opened fire. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling."

any background check that didn't turn up all this stuff wasn't worth conducting in the first place.

the point isn't to politicize this. well, it is in a sense, but if there was a way to avoid things like this by not having a drive-thru policy on the instant sale of handguns with 15-round clips, wouldn't it be worth it to tweak a foolish policy in order to avoid having things like this happen in the future?

i mean, seriously, if this guy could get a handgun legally, then virtually anyone can. i mean right? isn't that rather obvious? we can disagree whether that's a good idea, but it's plain this guy was an on-the-record lunatic, and was able to get two handguns capable of delivering massive fatality... and it was no problem. is there really something controversial on this point?

It's Cho's fault.  People are dead because he had several screws loose. 
actually, people are dead because he had several screws loose and two badass semiautomatic weapons.

From the same article I cited earlier: "According to Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum, in November of 2005, he made contact with a female student through telephone calls and in person. The student called it "annoying" but declined to press charges."




I just wanted to interrupt this thread to say that he has a great name!


carry on

I just wanted to interrupt this thread to say that he has a great name!


carry on
i remember when i was horror-struck, watching the aftermath of hurricane katrina along with everyone else and suddenly in the process of my horror having to do a doubletake: wait, the louisiana governor's name is kathleen babineaux blanco? that's... awesome.

i remember when i was horror-struck, watching the aftermath of hurricane katrina along with everyone else and suddenly in the process of my horror having to do a doubletake: wait, the louisiana governor's name is kathleen babineaux blanco? that's... awesome.


And the Maryland Police Chief during the sniper case..Charles Moose

actually, people are dead because he had several screws loose and two badass semiautomatic weapons.

Eggzactly.  If all Cho had was a machete, he could still have murdered, but only one or two, which of course would be one or two too many, but it would be far less death and grief than 32.  It is also much less likely a suicidal Cho could have stabbed himself to death.  He might now have to face punishment for his crimes.  No, I don't think Cho would have qualified for an insanity plea.  The legal definition of insanity is quite strict and does not encompass mental illness in general.

It is very difficult to retain patients on a psychiatric unit nowadays.  Even if psychiatrists determined Cho was profoundly irrational, he would have been discharged to outpatient care within a few weeks.  Even if they thought he was "dangerous," the bureaucratic shuffle would have landed him back on the street with a regimen of antipsychotic meds.

Now, even if Cho signed himself in, it makes a difference that he was ordered there by a magistrate.  In other words, it wasn't Cho saying he needed help, it was others.  "Crazy people don't know they're crazy," as crude as the cliche is, there's some truth in it.

I do agree with Rice that a slaughter of this magnitude might fall beyond the scope of violent trends in the general population.  Noted feminist scholar Carol Gilligan weighs in about Cho's homophobic and misogynistic statements (I heard this on NPR today, I guess she's referring to statements from the press kit Cho sent to NBC in medias res) and attributes them to her own theories about violence against women by men and violent homophobia.  How many guys who beat up their wives and hate gays go and gun down 30 people?  Come on! 

The posts relating specifically to guns/gun rights/gun control, etc. have been merged into a new retitled topic.

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?topic=25491.0

Thanks.

In a way, the issue of gun control is a moot point in a situation like this. It might be way too easy to get a gun legally, but a guy like Cho could have got his hands on a gun whether they were legal or not. Even without a gun, if his ultimate goal was to take out as many people as possible, he could have made a bomb and blown himself up just as easily. There's really no easy solution to preventing massacres like this. What's needed is some way of identifying problem individuals like Cho and intervening before they carry through with such catastrophic behaviour. This is far more difficult than just changing a few rules, but it could well be far more effective.

In a way, the issue of gun control is a moot point in a situation like this. It might be way too easy to get a gun legally, but a guy like Cho could have got his hands on a gun whether they were legal or not.
i actually doubt this. the man had no social skills.

now me, personally, if i wanted to get an illegal gun, i would have NO idea where to even start. i mean, what do you do, go down to an open air drug market in a bad part of town and act desperate? and then when someone comes up to you looking to sell yoiu a nickel of ragweed, ask em if they have a 15-round rapid reload glock? and we're talking about a guy who muttered into his chest and couldn't make eye contact.

no, i seriously doubt that he would have been able to get these guns easily illegally. the illegal gun market actually has few decent ins. take it from someone who has modest needs for illicit drugs -- these things are in fact NOT that easy to get one's hands on.

and as for a bomb -- i doubt he would have been able to kill nearly as many people. and there would have been a big, sweet chance he would have blown his own arms off. which, in retrospect, would have made me laugh. im not typically so cold-blooded but i REALLY don't like this guy and the idea of him blowing his own arms off without harming anyone else makes me giggle. (sorry!  :-[) and even if he had been able to make a bomb, i seriously doubt if, first time out, he would have been able to make one that would kill THIRTY people and wound thirty more. that's hard to do, making a bomb, bear in mind timothy mcveigh was a hardened military vet and, i'm still convinced, had help from an organized group. this guy was a little puss. without rapid-fire finely engineered semiautomatic pistols, he was basically waiting to be stuffed into a trash can.

no, i firmly believe the NRA was pretty much this guy's right-hand man, and it's gonna be hard to disabuse me of that. i mean, in a sane society he wouldn't have been able to buy those guns no questions asked, and we know damn well whose fault it is that he was.

An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours. 

In a way, the issue of gun control is a moot point in a situation like this. It might be way too easy to get a gun legally, but a guy like Cho could have got his hands on a gun whether they were legal or not. Even without a gun, if his ultimate goal was to take out as many people as possible, he could have made a bomb and blown himself up just as easily. There's really no easy solution to preventing massacres like this. What's needed is some way of identifying problem individuals like Cho and intervening before they carry through with such catastrophic behaviour. This is far more difficult than just changing a few rules, but it could well be far more effective.


i think the risk of an ametuer bomb maker is a bit lower than that of a dual-pistol wielding phsycho. in the bast, bombs made by ametuers have proven to be somewhat unsuccesfull. in columbine for instance, the boys had around 99 home made bombs, and barely any detonated.
 

Well, the others have made my rebuttals to the black market guns and homemade bombs premise for me.  At least nobody weighed in with this one:

If every student and staff member at Virginia Tech was packing a piece, somebody would have taken Cho out after he fired the first rounds!

I haven't been listening to the right-wing radio chatterboxes, but I'm sure a few of them have said so.  Maybe Savage, Liddy, and Cunningham.

That's what they were saying after Columbine eight years ago.  I mean grownups with syndicated radio programs making six figures a year were saying this. 

The NRA fanatics will tell you the problem is never too many guns, but too few guns!
:D

dude, this is weird.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_us/nasa_evacuation_18

first i live across the street from another campus of virginia tech. and now this... my dad worked at JSC for years when i was growing up, i totally know that building with the little ball on it.

not that it actually means anything. but man... has everyone taken leave of their senses? :\'(

in other news... i find this really really sad. maybe i'm just a softie.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting;_ylt=Au_ViQdVvouT.7vZq5utHz9g.3QA

of course, i'm assuming these characters didn't actually create this guy by sexually abusing him or something. but still... this seems incredibly sad to me.

"AP: Va. gunman's family feels hopeless

By ALLEN G. BREED and AARON BEARD, Associated Press Writer 53 minutes ago

BLACKSBURG, Va. - The family of Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho told The Associated Press on Friday that they feel "hopeless, helpless and lost," and "never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence."
ADVERTISEMENT

"He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare," said a statement issued by Cho's sister, Sun-Kyung Cho, on the family's behalf.

It was the Chos' first public comment since the 23-year-old student killed 32 people and committed suicide Monday in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

Raleigh, N.C., lawyer Wade Smith provided the statement to the AP after the Cho family reached out to him. Smith said the family would not answer any questions, and neither would he.

"Our family is so very sorry for my brother's unspeakable actions. It is a terrible tragedy for all of us," said Sun-Kyung Cho, a 2004 Princeton University graduate who works as a contractor for a State Department office that oversees American aid for
Iraq."

in other news... i find this really really sad. maybe i'm just a softie.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070420/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting;_ylt=Au_ViQdVvouT.7vZq5utHz9g.3QA

of course, i'm assuming these characters didn't actually create this guy by sexually abusing him or something. but still... this seems incredibly sad to me.

"AP: Va. gunman's family feels hopeless

By ALLEN G. BREED and AARON BEARD, Associated Press Writer 53 minutes ago

BLACKSBURG, Va. - The family of Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho told The Associated Press on Friday that they feel "hopeless, helpless and lost," and "never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence."
ADVERTISEMENT

"He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare," said a statement issued by Cho's sister, Sun-Kyung Cho, on the family's behalf.

It was the Chos' first public comment since the 23-year-old student killed 32 people and committed suicide Monday in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history.

Raleigh, N.C., lawyer Wade Smith provided the statement to the AP after the Cho family reached out to him. Smith said the family would not answer any questions, and neither would he.

"Our family is so very sorry for my brother's unspeakable actions. It is a terrible tragedy for all of us," said Sun-Kyung Cho, a 2004 Princeton University graduate who works as a contractor for a State Department office that oversees American aid for
Iraq."

Well, it is sad.  I don't know what his upbringing was like, but no matter, how would you feel if your son gunned down 32 people?  They will have to hear all those tasteless jokes about their son for years to come!
::)

Well, the others have made my rebuttals to the black market guns and homemade bombs premise for me.  At least nobody weighed in with this one:

If every student and staff member at Virginia Tech was packing a piece, somebody would have taken Cho out after he fired the first rounds!



I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the guy who sold Cho his gun said pretty much exactly that.

Well, it is sad.  I don't know what his upbringing was like, but no matter, how would you feel if your son gunned down 32 people?  They will have to hear all those tasteless jokes about their son for years to come!
::)


Not only the tasteless jokes, but there are some who will blame them, and ostracize them.  The man was mentally ill, and sometimes that doesn't have anything to do with how he was treated as a child.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the guy who sold Cho his gun said pretty much exactly that.
well, he would, wouldn't he? if this guy was so visibly and obviously mental, did the gun dealer who sold him the glock see it? does he even bother to ask his customers a few questions and size em up or does he just slide the pistol across the counter without looking up from his copy of "soldier of fortune"?

okay, that's a tad unfair, but still, this cho dude was so nuts he couldn't even hold a conversation, apparently. it raises questions whether this dealer was responsible.

as for the concealed carry -- yes, if there were a concealed carry permit for schools there might have been someone around to shoot cho. it also means there's gonna be concealed weapons all through the dorms for the keggers, on all the campus roads to add a little spice to the incidents of road rage, sitting by the phone when someone's girlfriend calls to say she's left him for another man, stuck inside some student's jacket when he goes to see a teacher he hates in the faculty office and finds out he's gotten an F he doesn't think he deserves and is gonna get kicked out of college.

concealed weapons: spicing up crimes of passion for over a hundred years!

well, he would, wouldn't he? if this guy was so visibly and obviously mental, did the gun dealer who sold him the glock see it? does he even bother to ask his customers a few questions and size em up or does he just slide the pistol across the counter without looking up from his copy of "soldier of fortune"?

okay, that's a tad unfair, but still, this cho dude was so nuts he couldn't even hold a conversation, apparently. it raises questions whether this dealer was responsible.

as for the concealed carry -- yes, if there were a concealed carry permit for schools there might have been someone around to shoot cho. it also means there's gonna be concealed weapons all through the dorms for the keggers, on all the campus roads to add a little spice to the incidents of road rage, sitting by the phone when someone's girlfriend calls to say she's left him for another man, stuck inside some student's jacket when he goes to see a teacher he hates in the faculty office and finds out he's gotten an F he doesn't think he deserves and is gonna get kicked out of college.

concealed weapons: spicing up crimes of passion for over a hundred years!

Karma +1
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumleft.gif

well, he would, wouldn't he? if this guy was so visibly and obviously mental, did the gun dealer who sold him the glock see it? does he even bother to ask his customers a few questions and size em up or does he just slide the pistol across the counter without looking up from his copy of "soldier of fortune"?

okay, that's a tad unfair, but still, this cho dude was so nuts he couldn't even hold a conversation, apparently. it raises questions whether this dealer was responsible.

as for the concealed carry -- yes, if there were a concealed carry permit for schools there might have been someone around to shoot cho. it also means there's gonna be concealed weapons all through the dorms for the keggers, on all the campus roads to add a little spice to the incidents of road rage, sitting by the phone when someone's girlfriend calls to say she's left him for another man, stuck inside some student's jacket when he goes to see a teacher he hates in the faculty office and finds out he's gotten an F he doesn't think he deserves and is gonna get kicked out of college.

concealed weapons: spicing up crimes of passion for over a hundred years!
Possibly being "visibly mental" is subjective.I mean,you see homeless people who could fit that discription,but they might not be doilng anything illegal.

Possibly being "visibly mental" is subjective.I mean,you see homeless people who could fit that discription,but they might not be doilng anything illegal.
you're missing my point. if the guy walks in to BUY A GUN he should be visibly sane. yes, homeless people who are plainly schizophrenic might not be doing anything illegal. but would you sell one a gun? i don't mean to be prejudiced against homeless people but if a homeless psychotic came in to buy a gun, i wouldn't sell it to him, and i hope to god you feel the same.

from what i see this guy was pretty obviously crazy to anyone who interacted with him at all. so why did this gun dealer sell him a gun? does he bother to say, hey, you a hunter? you getting this thing for target practice? have you ever bought a gun before?

let me tell you what i would do if i were a gun dealer. everyone who comes in to buy a gun, i'd make it a point to chat with em for a few minutes. look at their demeanor, assess their reactions. are they making eye contact? are they capable of comprehending my comments and responding to them in a coherent fashion? do they seem to be on an emotional even keel, or are they visibly angry, depressed or distraught? just basic stuff. if they strike me as being odd or off in some way, i wouldn't sell them a gun. this is just about feeling a basic responsibility to the community you live in if you're selling things that could potential damage that community.

so why didn't this gun dealer see how crazy this guy was? all his classmates recognized it. his teachers and roommates and just about everyone else in his daily life knew he was disturbed. maybe this cho character knew how to fake it and act normal for long enough to fool the dealer but still... it raises questions. and it makes me wonder about why he'd be making foolish comments now about, if everyone on virginia tech had a gun maybe they'd have shot him. to me it seems suspiciously like he's trying to cast suspicion off himself. maybe he's a perfectly fine upstanding guy but this issue makes me think his selling practices merit some looking into. yanno?

you're missing my point. if the guy walks in to BUY A GUN he should be visibly sane. yes, homeless people who are plainly schizophrenic might not be doing anything illegal. but would you sell one a gun? i don't mean to be prejudiced against homeless people but if a homeless psychotic came in to buy a gun, i wouldn't sell it to him, and i hope to god you feel the same.

from what i see this guy was pretty obviously crazy to anyone who interacted with him at all. so why did this gun dealer sell him a gun? does he bother to say, hey, you a hunter? you getting this thing for target practice? have you ever bought a gun before?

let me tell you what i would do if i were a gun dealer. everyone who comes in to buy a gun, i'd make it a point to chat with em for a few minutes. look at their demeanor, assess their reactions. are they making eye contact? are they capable of comprehending my comments and responding to them in a coherent fashion? do they seem to be on an emotional even keel, or are they visibly angry, depressed or distraught? just basic stuff. if they strike me as being odd or off in some way, i wouldn't sell them a gun. this is just about feeling a basic responsibility to the community you live in if you're selling things that could potential damage that community.

so why didn't this gun dealer see how crazy this guy was? all his classmates recognized it. his teachers and roommates and just about everyone else in his daily life knew he was disturbed. maybe this cho character knew how to fake it and act normal for long enough to fool the dealer but still... it raises questions. and it makes me wonder about why he'd be making foolish comments now about, if everyone on virginia tech had a gun maybe they'd have shot him. to me it seems suspiciously like he's trying to cast suspicion off himself. maybe he's a perfectly fine upstanding guy but this issue makes me think his selling practices merit some looking into. yanno?

I'd have to go looking for a citation, but I believe Bush signed legislation shielding gun dealers from a great deal of liability....

I'd have to go looking for a citation, but I believe Bush signed legislation shielding gun dealers from a great deal of liability....
well, we all know with the current political climate, it's pretty much anything goes as far as guns are concerned. so i certainly wouldn't expect this character to be legally liable since there aren't really hardly any rules. but i just mean being a decent responsible human being who's dealing in something potentially dangerous. if he knows in his heart of hearts he thought this dude was messed up when he sold him the gun and then sold him it anyway cuz he wanted the money, he's going to have to live with his own conscience.