I am curious, was I the only one that was disturbed watching the press conference with President Bush and President Calderón this week?

I was listening to the rhetoric comming from President Calderón, and really got offended.  He tried to compare the plan to install a border fence as being equivelent to the Berlin Wall, and basically said that it is the responsibility of the US Goverment to send him more money to improve his country.

Now there is one thing that struck me immediately about his "Berlin Wall" comparison.  The Berlin Wall (contrary to propaganda by the USSR) was not errected to keep people out.  It was errected to keep people in.  If they were so worried about invasion, why were the mine fields and machine guns all pointed inwards, to their own country?  And while a confirmed figure of 192 were killed (many estimates are much higher) trying to enter West Berlin, none have ever been reported killed trying to enter East Berlin.

And currently, the US is sending Mexico an average of $18 billion a year (an $50 billion in 1994).  Yet Mexico is still bleeding people across the border in record numbers.

This prompts me to ask this question:  What is making Mexico so bad that tens of tousands of it's citizens would choose to leave their country?

Mexico is hardly an "Impoverished Nation".  In fact, they are the world's third largest oil producer.  The oil industry accounts for over 1/3 of their GNP.  In addition, PEMEX is a National Corporation, and has been since 1936 when Mexico nationalized it's oil industry.  So with all those petrodollars comming into the country, why are they having so many financial problems?

Instead of castigating the US or other countries, they need to try and fix what is wrong with their own country.  Improve the conditions so they are not hemmoraging it's own citizens to another country.  It is not that they do not have the money.  With oil at almost record high prices, they should be awash in money they did not have a decade ago when oil was less then 1/3 the current price.  Yet instead of decreasing, illegal immigration has increased compared to what it was a decade ago.

I have been to Mexico many times.  The nation is blessed with mineral wealth.  Gold, Silver, Petrolium, fertile farmland.  Yet most of the people are impoverished.  Corruption is such a way of life there, that assasinations are routine and graft is accepted as "the cost of doing business".  It really makes me sad.

The Berlin Wall comparison doesn't fly.  BTW, I always learned growing up the Berlin Wall was erected to keep DDR citizens from crossing into West Germany.  If the DDR government was trying to spread propaganda that the reverse was true, it didn't work....for obvious reasons.

Mexico is a poor country because a few extremely rich families control the wealth and control the hopelessly corrupt government.  U.S. corporations also exploit cheap labor from Mexico on BOTH sides of the border.  Of course Mexico itself is rich in natural resources, so are most poor countries. 

As soon as the leader of any poor country talks of nationalizing his country's resources and distributing the wealth more equitably among the people, he is demonized as a "communist."  The super rich in America want to see America look more like Mexico and not the other way around.  America is losing its middle class and moving toward a Latin American style economic structure.  The financial elites in Mexico and America share more common interests than either does with the working classes.

If Calderon wanted to take responsibility for the economic well-being of Mexico, you would be more offended.  You would demonize him like you demonize Castro and Chavez.  It would be better for the economic elites in the U.S. and Mexico to double or treble our foreign aid to Mexico than for Mexico to clean up its act.

Yes, Mexico is quit corrup, but that's just the start of the problem.  The Revolution (1914-1936) was a failure in terms of ending the feudal system.  One big problem today is that US subsidies to agribusiness has made it more difficult for Mexico's subsisance farmers.  They leave the land with no other skills and migrate to the cities, where they are unemployed, or the cross into the states looking for work.  There have been articles in our local paper claiming that without these undocumented workers most Vermont farms would be bankrupt.  Max is right on in his comments.

Yes, Mexico is quit corrup, but that's just the start of the problem.  The Revolution (1914-1936) was a failure in terms of ending the feudal system.  One big problem today is that US subsidies to agribusiness has made it more difficult for Mexico's subsisance farmers.  They leave the land with no other skills and migrate to the cities, where they are unemployed, or the cross into the states looking for work.  There have been articles in our local paper claiming that without these undocumented workers most Vermont farms would be bankrupt.  Max is right on in his comments.

Even Vermont? Wow!
I don't have the facts at my fingertips, but I've also heard NAFTA has been devastating to Mexican agriculture thus amplifying the problem you mentioned.

Hey, we want cheap lettuce and cheap landscaping but we resent the people who make it possible.  Go figure.

As soon as the leader of any poor country talks of nationalizing his country's resources and distributing the wealth more equitably among the people, he is demonized as a "communist." 


Actually, I do not feel that way at all.  I have always viewed it as the right of a nation to choose to nationalize it's assets, as long as any investments made to that infrastructure have been paid off.  When Iraq nationalized it's assets, the oil companies had already been repaid many times over.  However, when Venexuela nationalized it's telecom industry, many companies lost billions because they had just upgraded the system, and never got repaid for that work.

However, most of the time when I hear "Nationalization", what I tend to think is "I want to take it over for myself".  And Mexico is exactly what can go wrong.  Instead of being taken for "the people", it was just taken over for those that control the Government.  It would be like the US nationalizing it's oil companies, and making Exxon the only oil and gas company in the nation.  PEMEX is not only the only oil company, it also owns all of the gas stations in Mexico.

And Maxwell, you are exactly right about why "The Wall" went up.  After the Allied Powers divided up Germany after WWII, East Germany hemoraged most of it's most tallented people to West Germany.  More and more of it's best and brightest were moving West, and they had to do something fast or they would have had no doctors and scientists left.

However, the "Mexican Exodus" is actually the reverse.  It is the lowest classes that tend to be leaving, seduced by the "higher wages" available in the US.  And Americans have been more and more hesitant to invest in Mexico over the last decade.  I had an uncle that lived there for over 30 years, and is burried in Mexico City.  But over the last decades, "gringos" have simply become a source of money for the corrupt government officials.

It really is a sad state of affairs. 

Yes, Mush, your comparison between east germany and mexico is correct.  It is mexico's poor who come here.  One might suggest, and this is just a thought, that the trend started during WW II with the brasero program and really hasn't stopped.  I can understand the frustration some folks feel about illegals getting access to social services, although there are some at least who pay taxes and are afraid to take advantage.  There was a story on CNN about just such a guy in NYC who has been here foir years, owns a flower shop, etc.  Seems to me there must be some humanitarian way to solve this problem.

Seems to me there must be some humanitarian way to solve this problem.



The first step would be for workers to stop beating each other up, see how much they have in common and try to come to a solution that is better for them and not Nike, Coca Cola, United Fruit Co, etc etc.

The first step would be for workers to stop beating each other up, see how much they have in common and try to come to a solution that is better for them and not Nike, Coca Cola, United Fruit Co, etc etc.


WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumleft.gif

^ Left thumb up!

I can understand the frustration some folks feel about illegals getting access to social services, although there are some at least who pay taxes and are afraid to take advantage.  There was a story on CNN about just such a guy in NYC who has been here foir years, owns a flower shop, etc.  Seems to me there must be some humanitarian way to solve this problem.


Personally, I am a huge fan of immigration.  I am even capable of turning a blind eye towards some illegal immigration.  And I really don't care if illegals are sending US money back home.  In reality, that actually strengthens the value of the US Dollar.

But I start to have problems when illegals come into the country, and have no intention of joining US Society.  Many just come to take advantage of "Special Programs", because such things do not exist back home in Mexico.  This is why you see so many in states like California and New York.  And the problem will only make things worse, as a large number of those choose to "Ghettoize" themselves.  Because they are afraid of being set back home, very few adapt and blend into American society.  This then causes problems for their children later on.

I went to school with children born in the US of illegal parents.  You would be amazed at how many can't speak English, even in their late teens.  They live in Hispanic neighborhoods, watch Hispanic TV, listen to Hispanic radio, and read Hispanic newspapers.  Then later on many are upset because they can only find jobs as janitors and other menial workers.

We have had so many Amnesty Programs over the years, I simply can't understand why those who claim they really want to live here permanently don't take advantage of them.  My ex-wife, her mother, and her sister all took advantage of such programs in the 1980's, and have now been "Resident Aliens" for over a decade (her father was on a 5 year work visa).  However, her parents however are still "Ghettoized".  After over 25 years in the US, neither one has ever learned more then a smattering of English.

However, we are currently under a flood of illegal immigration.  And more and more serious crime associated with this is happening all the time.  Kidnappings and murder have increasingly become tools of "Coyotes", in addition to drug smuggling and forced prostitution and slave labor.  It is not "Illegal Immigration" that bothers me, near as much as the other crimes that tend to follow it. 

You would be amazed at how many can't speak English, even in their late teens.  They live in Hispanic neighborhoods, watch Hispanic TV, listen to Hispanic radio, and read Hispanic newspapers.  Then later on many are upset because they can only find jobs as janitors and other menial workers.



Roll the clock back 100 years and replace "Hispanic" with "Italian."  OK, well, TV and radio not so much in 1907!  The prevailing myth is that the immigrants of yesteryear all arrived legally and just couldn't wait to be Ward Cleaver.  But it ain't so.  They might not have had bilingual education programs until the late 20th century, but a lot of children from immigrant families did not go beyond primary school in those days. 

And I for one don't think it is "menial" to be a janitor.  Imagine life without them.
::)

And I for one don't think it is "menial" to be a janitor.  Imagine life without them.
::)


ditto, There aren't any "menial" jobs.  If they weren't necessary then they wouldn't be paid to do it.  Now, there are menial wages paid for necessary services.

ditto, There aren't any "menial" jobs.  If they weren't necessary then they wouldn't be paid to do it.  Now, there are menial wages paid for necessary services.


Get a job cleaning the building, get paid ten bucks an hour.  Get a job firing everybody who works in the building, get a ten million dollar bonus.  That's the free market, ain't it?
;D

Get a job cleaning the building, get paid ten bucks an hour.  Get a job firing everybody who works in the building, get a ten million dollar bonus.  That's the free market, ain't it?


The labor theory of value:  Your hourly wage is worth no less than the effort you put into your hour of work.  The harder you work, the more you should demand for an hour of your labor.

The leisure theory of value:  Your hourly wage is whatever it'd cost you to have an equivalent amount of fun for that hour.  The more fun you could be having, the more they'd have to pay you to bother coming in to the office.

I subscribe to the leisure theory of value, and firing people doesn't sound like fun... but it sounds like a lot more fun than cleaning the building at $10/hr.  So I know which job I'd prefer to take, even if I'm not having enough fun to demand more than a million bucks a year. 

The labor theory of value:  Your hourly wage is worth no less than the effort you put into your hour of work.  The harder you work, the more you should demand for an hour of your labor.

The leisure theory of value:  Your hourly wage is whatever it'd cost you to have an equivalent amount of fun for that hour.  The more fun you could be having, the more they'd have to pay you to bother coming in to the office.

I subscribe to the leisure theory of value, and firing people doesn't sound like fun... but it sounds like a lot more fun than cleaning the building at $10/hr.  So I know which job I'd prefer to take, even if I'm not having enough fun to demand more than a million bucks a year. 

Take that Karl Marx!
:D

Roll the clock back 100 years and replace "Hispanic" with "Italian."  OK, well, TV and radio not so much in 1907!  The prevailing myth is that the immigrants of yesteryear all arrived legally and just couldn't wait to be Ward Cleaver.  But it ain't so.  They might not have had bilingual education programs until the late 20th century, but a lot of children from immigrant families did not go beyond primary school in those days. 

And I for one don't think it is "menial" to be a janitor.  Imagine life without them.
::)
A lot of children PERIOD did not go beyond primary school in those days, it was not an entirely "immigrant" phenomenon.  Especially in the south and midwest unless you were fortunate enough to have an affluent family.  My mother's family were all farmers and not even the men got beyond 5th grade because they had to work on the farms.  My grandfather only made it to 8th grade because he had to work the farm and my grandmother only made it to 3rd grade because she had to help care for her brothers & sisters and work the farm.  Their parents before them had even less education.

AFA Mushroom talking about the kids he used to go to school with whose parents did not speak English, that is STILL a common occurrence.  In my hometown, there are a large quantity of immigrants who cannot speak English to this day.  Many of them have been here 20+ years and still don't speak a word.  There are really no incentives for them to learn, though, because everything is done in multiple languages these days.  In my area, most hospitals, banks, and public offices have interpreters on staff to interpret for those who cannot speak English.  Heck, in many fields, it's difficult to get even a clerical job unless you're bilingual.  When I was looking for a job, I was turned down from quite a few because I did not speak Spanish.

A lot of children PERIOD did not go beyond primary school in those days, it was not an entirely "immigrant" phenomenon.  Especially in the south and midwest unless you were fortunate enough to have an affluent family.  My mother's family were all farmers and not even the men got beyond 5th grade because they had to work on the farms.  My grandfather only made it to 8th grade because he had to work the farm and my grandmother only made it to 3rd grade because she had to help care for her brothers & sisters and work the farm.  Their parents before them had even less education.

AFA Mushroom talking about the kids he used to go to school with whose parents did not speak English, that is STILL a common occurrence.  In my hometown, there are a large quantity of immigrants who cannot speak English to this day.  Many of them have been here 20+ years and still don't speak a word.  There are really no incentives for them to learn, though, because everything is done in multiple languages these days.  In my area, most hospitals, banks, and public offices have interpreters on staff to interpret for those who cannot speak English.  Heck, in many fields, it's difficult to get even a clerical job unless you're bilingual.  When I was looking for a job, I was turned down from quite a few because I did not speak Spanish.

I wouldn't be too happy if I got turned down for a job because I didn't speak Spanish in the U.S.  People have indeed been facing that kind of discrimination for 25 years in some parts of the country. 

I wouldn't be too happy if I got turned down for a job because I didn't speak Spanish in the U.S.  People have indeed been facing that kind of discrimination for 25 years in some parts of the country. 


A lot of jobs are looking for bilinguals to interact with the public.  I say it is high time we in the USA got serious about learning other languages.

A lot of jobs are looking for bilinguals to interact with the public.  I say it is high time we in the USA got serious about learning other languages.

This is true.  In Europe, India, and elsewhere, kids learn at least one additional language.  Americans don't because we don't have to.  I didn't.  But the world is changing.  I would not object to learning Spanish.  Already know some.  It's an easy language compared to English.  The thing is, it's much harder to learn new languages as a teen or an adult.  I'm not a nativist.  I think it would be a good idea for American kids to learn both English and Spanish.  They could start Spanish lessons as early as kindergarten.  That's not going to go over big with the Archie Bunker nation.  They'd go fogging nots!  "This is America! Speak English or get out!"  I noticed early on how the people who were most jealously "English Only" weren't too good English speakers theirselves!
:D

Still, I can't say I wouldn't b p*ssed if I got passed over for a job because I didn't speak Spanish.  I could rationalize it, but I wouldn't like it.

  "This is America! Speak English or get out!"  I noticed early on how the people who were most jealously "English Only" weren't too good English speakers theirselves!
:D




    ;D ;D  I noticed the same thing

A lot of jobs are looking for bilinguals to interact with the public.  I say it is high time we in the USA got serious about learning other languages.


A lot of schools require a second language in order to graduate.  I know that in LA, you must have at least 1-2 years of a foreign language.

But here is another problem: Which foreign language?  Most schools offer French, Italian, Spanish, and German.  In larger schools, you may find alternatives like Russian, Japanese, and even Mandarin.  My fiancee was fluent in both German and ASL (American Sign Language), but that did her no good when an employer wanted Spanish.  And in some areas of LA, you find requirements for Korean, Vietnamese, even Arabic and Hebrew as the second language.

My point is whole swaths of this country are becoming bilingual (English/Spanish) whether you, I, or the those godawful "Minutemen" like it or not.

I predict the movement to make English the "official" language of the U.S. will go stronger.  However, I think such a law at this point would hurt more than it would help.

I guess for now, I recall the 'official' language of the US is English.

The emotional side of the argument is WHY need to speak another language? No one ORDERED us to HAVE to -(as of yet), All Americans are not speaking English.

Do others who have no other language skills HAVE to learn a FOREIGN tongue? Maybe let individuals decide...however, like the minute 'grouping' of nationalities these days: IN L.A.and environs, they have created some neighborhoods as LITTLE ARMENIA, LITTLE TOKYO, AND LITTLE ETHIOPIA..maybe THIS HAS TO STOP or the town becomes segregated into 'littles'  and why would anyone celebrate Ethiopia when it is such a torn apart 3rd world place and give it honor by naming an area for it!

Very annoying whenever I see it ,at least.

So now, SHOULD Americans learn to speak another language? It should be recreational NOT MANDATORY..speak English when I shop or work in the general market! At home, talk MARTIAN if you'd like!       

I guess for now, I recall the 'official' language of the US is English.

The emotional side of the argument is WHY need to speak another language? No one ORDERED us to HAVE to -(as of yet), All Americans are not speaking English.

Do others who have no other language skills HAVE to learn a FOREIGN tongue? Maybe let individuals decide...however, like the minute 'grouping' of nationalities these days: IN L.A.and environs, they have created some neighborhoods as LITTLE ARMENIA, LITTLE TOKYO, AND LITTLE ETHIOPIA..maybe THIS HAS TO STOP or the town becomes segregated into 'littles'  and why would anyone celebrate Ethiopia when it is such a torn apart 3rd world place and give it honor by naming an area for it!

Very annoying whenever I see it ,at least.

So now, SHOULD Americans learn to speak another language? It should be recreational NOT MANDATORY..speak English when I shop or work in the general market! At home, talk MARTIAN if you'd like!         


I believe that a well rounded education includes a foreign language component.  All the posh private schools that graduate the people who will run the world have mandatory second language requirements for graduation(somehting to remember when pushing for school choice) Beyond that it brings the people of the world closer together.  There is an arrogance in the community of English speakers that is more ignorance than anything else.  What promotes better understanding, and language is a major player in that arena, is not a bad thing.

Then of course this is America, and ethnic enclaves have been with us since the Europeans came to our shores.  Why is it that there is a fondness for Chinatown, Little Italy, and the various Irish enclaves, but there is such virulence about the Barrio? 

I guess for now, I recall the 'official' language of the US is English.
It isn't.  It's just what the majority speaks.  There's no legislation, though it's been proposed numerous times.

The emotional side of the argument is WHY need to speak another language? No one ORDERED us to HAVE to -(as of yet), All Americans are not speaking English.
This does not make any sense.

Do others who have no other language skills HAVE to learn a FOREIGN tongue? Maybe let individuals decide...however, like the minute 'grouping' of nationalities these days: IN L.A.and environs, they have created some neighborhoods as LITTLE ARMENIA, LITTLE TOKYO, AND LITTLE ETHIOPIA..maybe THIS HAS TO STOP or the town becomes segregated into 'littles'  and why would anyone celebrate Ethiopia when it is such a torn apart 3rd world place and give it honor by naming an area for it!
Learning a foreign language helps a person understand his/her mother tongue better.  Undrstanding different grammatical structures makes the mind more agile similar to the way understanding mathematics does.  Furthermore, understanding differences and smilarities among languages leads to a mind more open to understanding different cultures, which in turn, creates more insight and tolerance regarding the politics of getting along.  Without such understanding, there is no incentive to consider "Little Armenian" from the point of view of an American of Armenian heritage, nor is there an interest in finding out why conditions in East Africa are so deplorable and how it came to be that way.



So now, SHOULD Americans learn to speak another language? It should be recreational NOT MANDATORY..speak English when I shop or work in the general market! At home, talk MARTIAN if you'd like!         

Oh awchie!
::)