My dad sent me a link to this article in the Washington Post. Since you have to subscribe, I found the article on another site which anyone can view.


http://freeinternetpress.com/story.php?sid=10634


It really pisses me off. Maybe someday there will truly be freedom of religion in this country.




Cat

Sure, there's freedom of religion: the freedom to believe what I tell you to believe...

Sure, there's freedom of religion: the freedom to believe what I tell you to believe...


Worship or Die will soon be the call.

"I realized so many innocent people are dying again in the name of God," says Larsen. He's 44, and a bit behind the curve: I realized that before I was 18.

"More than 130 religious groups have endorsed, or certified, chaplains to serve in uniform. But efforts by Wiccan organizations to join the list have repeatedly been denied by the Pentagon."

130 groups which the military accepts, but not Wiccans? That's really messed up.

"I realized so many innocent people are dying again in the name of God," says Larsen. He's 44, and a bit behind the curve: I realized that before I was 18.

"More than 130 religious groups have endorsed, or certified, chaplains to serve in uniform. But efforts by Wiccan organizations to join the list have repeatedly been denied by the Pentagon."

130 groups which the military accepts, but not Wiccans? That's really messed up.




Yeah, it is totally messed up. I tried to find the list of the religions that the military recognizes but when I did a google search, Wicca came up more than not. If anyone can find the list, I would apprecate a link.



Cat

Yeah, it is totally messed up. I tried to find the list of the religions that the military recognizes but when I did a google search, Wicca came up more than not. If anyone can find the list, I would apprecate a link.

Cat


I can't find it either, but really, it's irrelavent: as far as I can tell, Wicca has been a federally recognized religion since the 60s, and has withstood appeals. For the government to crap all over Wiccans in service (from worship to headstone symbol choice) sounds illegal to me.

I can't find it either, but really, it's irrelavent: as far as I can tell, Wicca has been a federally recognized religion since the 60s, and has withstood appeals. For the government to crap all over Wiccans in service (from worship to headstone symbol choice) sounds illegal to me.





It is definately Unconstitutional-under the First Admendement.



Cat

I only have the information presented in the article, but it seems to me that it is more the fault of the Chaplaincy of Full Gospel Churches than the military in this particular case.  They were the ones who pulled his endorsement before he could switch to Wicca.

That being said, I think it SHOULD be recognized by the military.  The only reason I can think it hasn't been is that there's not 1 "god" that Wiccans worship ???  I could be wrong :-\\

Sure, there's freedom of religion: the freedom to believe what I tell you to believe...



And freedom of speech:  Shut up and do as we tell you!
:P

The problem goes right back to the argument earlier about symbols on tombstones.

Remember, we are talking about a Government Beaurocracy.  And with Organized Religion.

With each of the other religions Recognized by the US Military Chaplain Corps, there are many requirements.  Foremost among them, to be 21 or older, have a BA degree, and to be an ordained minister which meets all of the requirements of their Sponsoring Faith.

That means if you are a Catholic Chaplain, you must meet all the requirements of being both a Catholic Priest, and a Chaplain.  The same goes with every religion.  And in addition, the "Host Religions" give various dispositions to the Chaplain Corps.  Among them are the permission of non-faith Chaplains to performing their rights, and to give various rites to anybody, reguardless of their faith.

If a question arises for a Catholic, there is a chain to go through for resolution.  The same goes for somebody who is Hindu, Muslim, Baptist, Pentacostal, or Mormon.  But who officiates and Ordains "Wiccan Priests"?  What body settles disputes over how ceremonies are performed?  Is there even an ordination requirement, or a body to oversee those ordinations?

This is the problem that will prevent Wiccan from being recognized.  It all boils down to beaurocracy.  The Government (especially the Military) wants to be able to go to a "Civilian Authority" (or body) to settle disputes of a religious nature.  And with Wicca, that simply does not exist.

If someday the various sects of Wicca got together and formulated a "Governing Body" and requirements for "Formal Ordination", then the Military might accept their Chaplains in the Chaplain Corps.  But until then, I sinply don't see it happening.

And remember, this has nothing to do with Wicca itself, but with how the Military operates.  Chaplains have to answer to both the Military and their Parent Faith.  I even know of a Catholic Chaplain that resigned his Comission, because he was given a promotion in the Catholic Church.  A Chaplain is unique, in that they really do have "2 bosses".  And without a strong "Second Boss" to go to the Military will simply not accept them in an Official Capacity.

That means if you are a Catholic Chaplain, you must meet all the requirements of being both a Catholic Priest, and a Chaplain.  The same goes with every religion.

Not Islam: an imam has no specific requirements, other than to know the Qur'an, etc; but there is no qualification authority.  If when you say you're Imam, others treat you as such, then you are.  In some ways it's a great idea; however it does mean there's no way one can be "struck off" for (for example) espousing violence.  But I'll bet the military has Muslim "chaplains" as well (I use the quotes as they may well not be called chaplains).

Not Islam: an imam has no specific requirements, other than to know the Qur'an, etc; but there is no qualification authority.  If when you say you're Imam, others treat you as such, then you are.  In some ways it's a great idea; however it does mean there's no way one can be "struck off" for (for example) espousing violence.  But I'll bet the military has Muslim "chaplains" as well (I use the quotes as they may well not be called chaplains).



Chaplin is the military job title regardless of denomination-be it Catholic, Jewish, etc. Rabbis in the military are called "chaplins".



Cat

ah, how glad i am that i'm not tied down by the rediculous beliefs of christianity and other religions.

ah, how glad i am that i'm not tied down by the rediculous beliefs of christianity and other religions.



Ah yes....those who are Christians...are "ridiculous".  How tolerant of you.

Ah yes....those who are Christians...are "ridiculous".  How tolerant of you.

You're misquoting and following up with a non sequitur: he said Christian beliefs are ridiculous (well, "rediculous", but you know what I mean), not Christians; he is not trying to stop them from being Christian so there's nothing to suggest he's not being tolerant so as to warrant your sarcasm.

Many Christian beliefs are ridiculous; ditto those of pretty much any other religion you'd care to nominate.  Personally, I find any belief in an all-knowing all-powerful being who is capable of creating the whole universe and governing the interactions of every atom and molecule within it and yet still gives a sheesh about whether someone is homosexual or not - now, that IS totally and utterly ridiculous.

You're misquoting and following up with a non sequitur: he said Christian beliefs are ridiculous (well, "rediculous", but you know what I mean), not Christians; he is not trying to stop them from being Christian so there's nothing to suggest he's not being tolerant so as to warrant your sarcasm.

Many Christian beliefs are ridiculous; ditto those of pretty much any other religion you'd care to nominate.  Personally, I find any belief in an all-knowing all-powerful being who is capable of creating the whole universe and governing the interactions of every atom and molecule within it and yet still gives a sheesh about whether someone is homosexual or not - now, that IS totally and utterly ridiculous.


yes, she tends to mis quote me. like when she accused me of saying girls on myspace deserve to be raped. ring any bells morphi? 

Not Islam: an imam has no specific requirements, other than to know the Qur'an, etc; but there is no qualification authority.  If when you say you're Imam, others treat you as such, then you are.  In some ways it's a great idea; however it does mean there's no way one can be "struck off" for (for example) espousing violence.  But I'll bet the military has Muslim "chaplains" as well (I use the quotes as they may well not be called chaplains).


No, but their is a 1500+ year history, along with traditions that go back much farther then that.  There are also numerous "religious writings" that date back hundreds of years that cover the accepted conduct of their clergy.

Now remember, this has nothing to do with my personal belief here.  I want to make that perfectly clear.  And Wicca is not unusual in this circumstance.  Good luck finding "Military Chaplains" for Scientology, Christian Scientist, Self-Realization, or most other "New Age" religions.  In my 10 years in, I don't think I ever saw a Mormon Chaplain, although I am sure that they are out there.  And don't forget, Scientology was founded by a former Naval Officer. 

Basically, they want to sponsor Chaplains from religions that meet certain criteria.  For one, they should have a long history.  For two, there should be enough members in the military that are members to justify the cost.  There should also be long traditions, with some form of "Governing Rules" or a "Governing Body" to go for to resolve questions about the faith.

However, there is also nothing from stopping a Chaplain from conducting services for another faith, wether they belong to it or not.  This is a requirement.  Basically, all that is needed is the proper training, and enough service members to justify it.  I know that when I was in Japan, our Baptist Chaplain conducted special meetings and services for Mormons and Methodists.  And I have seen Catholic Priests giving Jewish services.  If a unit had a number of Wiccans, then there would be nothing wrong with a Chaplain conducting their services.  The Military certainly would not prevent it.

However, I just can't see the military authorizing "Wiccan Chaplains".  I doubt there are enough people in the military to justify the expense, even if it could be done.  On a large post (Division Level), you may have 10-20 "Wiccans".  That is a large waste of money, to employ a full-time Chaplain (with the grade, pay, and benefits of an Officer).  Instead, they would simply ask for another Chaplain to train for any services or rites that are required.  That is what they do for every other "Minority Religion" like Muslim, Jewish, Buddist, or Christian Scientist.

Now comes the other question though, what is required to perform "Wiccan Rites"?  Who can answer that question?  If the members of the Wiccan Congregation have a problem with the way they are performed, who can they go to for clarification?

And to toss it right back, since Wicca does not seem to need these types of rules for the majority of groups, why are we going to suddenly try and "regimentalize" it?  Is Wicca really willing to accept the US Military comming out with a "Guidebook" requiring how all rites and services are to be performed?  Who is to perform the services, and what is their required training?  Because that is what will be required.  All Chaplains in the military have "Prayerbooks" and pre-written services for all major Abrahamic religions (which covers the beliefs of probably 96% of military members).  A Chaplain simply goes to where the services are to be performed, and pulls out a book "Islam", "Jewish", "Catholic" "Protestant", and follows the rules and prayers.  Can this really be done with Wicca?

No, but their is a 1500+ year history, along with traditions that go back much farther then that.  There are also numerous "religious writings" that date back hundreds of years that cover the accepted conduct of their clergy.

But take Abu Hamza as an example: there was nothing in Islam  which said this hate-monger did anything which was conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy.  When interviewed, mainstream Muslim types said "what he says are nothing to do with Islam, but we do not have any power over him and cannot prevent him being described as a cleric".


However, there is also nothing from stopping a Chaplain from conducting services for another faith, wether they belong to it or not.  This is a requirement.  Basically, all that is needed is the proper training, and enough service members to justify it.

Surely that's hypocrisy, pure and simple?  How can someone representing a faith that says "this is the only true faith" conduct a service for another one which *also* claims to be the "only true faith"?

But take Abu Hamza as an example: there was nothing in Islam  which said this hate-monger did anything which was conduct unbecoming a member of the clergy.  When interviewed, mainstream Muslim types said "what he says are nothing to do with Islam, but we do not have any power over him and cannot prevent him being described as a cleric".


Hamza could point to passages in the Koran that he could claim support what he believes.  You can cherry-pick the Bible and the Koran to support just about anything, that's why I wouldn't want either book defining the laws of society.
::)

Yeah, it is totally messed up. I tried to find the list of the religions that the military recognizes but when I did a google search, Wicca came up more than not. If anyone can find the list, I would apprecate a link.



Cat


Cat, I have talked to hubby and he gave me the Army Regulation number that covers dog tags, or ID tags - and unfortunately there is nothing in it that says what religions are recognized. I have a few other people working on it too to try and find exactly what we are looking for.

I have an opinion on this and I will post it in a few.

Surely that's hypocrisy, pure and simple?  How can someone representing a faith that says "this is the only true faith" conduct a service for another one which *also* claims to be the "only true faith"?


Because Military Clergy see every member of the military as a member of their "Congregation", if they belong to their exact religion or not.

I see no conflict in this, and never have.  But I guess it may seem very foreign to a Civilian, who does not really understand the way the Military works.

One thing about the Chaplain Corps, they tend to avoid the "Holy Roller" types.  You will not hear Chaplains talking bad about other religions, because that is against the interest of their congregation.  In most cases, you will find 1 Chaplain assigned to units of Battalion size or larger (roughly 500 personel).  And in larger units, they try to mix them up (in a Regiment of 3-4 Battalions you normally find 1-2 Catholic and 1-2 Protestant Chaplains).  Other religions (Islam, Judaism, etc) are normally not found below Division level (3-5 Regiments) because there is simply not enough "Population Density" to justify a Chaplain for those religions in a smaller unit.

I have had many conversations with the Rabbi for the 2nd Marine Division (I was considering Conversion at the time).  He performed Jewish services on Friday, and Protestant services on Sunday.  He saw no problem in this, because he saw himself as taking care of "God's Children", and their exact faith was of no importance.  No more then the various "Religious" charities, that feed and clothe the hungry all over the world, reguardless of faith.  You might as well claim that Mother Theresa was wrong, for taking care of the "Heathens" in India.

This is also part of the problem with "Wicca Chaplains".  What is the density of Wicca servicemembers?  Are there any bases with enough to justify having a Chaplain for them?  I am sure that there are less WIcca then Jewish in the service, buy you only find Rabbis at bases where you have more 5,000 service personnel.  The island of Okinawa only has 2 Rabbis (1 Air Force, 1 Navy).

Because Military Clergy see every member of the military as a member of their "Congregation", if they belong to their exact religion or not.

I see no conflict in this, and never have.  But I guess it may seem very foreign to a Civilian, who does not really understand the way the Military works.

One thing about the Chaplain Corps, they tend to avoid the "Holy Roller" types.  You will not hear Chaplains talking bad about other religions, because that is against the interest of their congregation.  In most cases, you will find 1 Chaplain assigned to units of Battalion size or larger (roughly 500 personel).  And in larger units, they try to mix them up (in a Regiment of 3-4 Battalions you normally find 1-2 Catholic and 1-2 Protestant Chaplains).  Other religions (Islam, Judaism, etc) are normally not found below Division level (3-5 Regiments) because there is simply not enough "Population Density" to justify a Chaplain for those religions in a smaller unit.

I have had many conversations with the Rabbi for the 2nd Marine Division (I was considering Conversion at the time).  He performed Jewish services on Friday, and Protestant services on Sunday.  He saw no problem in this, because he saw himself as taking care of "God's Children", and their exact faith was of no importance.  No more then the various "Religious" charities, that feed and clothe the hungry all over the world, reguardless of faith.  You might as well claim that Mother Theresa was wrong, for taking care of the "Heathens" in India.

This is also part of the problem with "Wicca Chaplains".  What is the density of Wicca servicemembers?  Are there any bases with enough to justify having a Chaplain for them?  I am sure that there are less WIcca then Jewish in the service, buy you only find Rabbis at bases where you have more 5,000 service personnel.  The island of Okinawa only has 2 Rabbis (1 Air Force, 1 Navy).





I do agree with you that most military chaplins don't have that "holier than thou" attitude toward other religions. It could be because they HAVE to understand them in order to preform services.

As for the numbers, it is very hard to tell what the exact number of Wiccans are in the military because many are still in the "broom closet" for fear of ridicule and such. I don't see how having a Wiccan chaplin would matter-as long as he/she could preform other religious services-like a Catholic military chaplin or a Jewish military chaplin would do. I just wonder how many chaplins WOULD preform a Wiccan service. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if several of them refused to-because they don't understand it and think it is "devil worshipping".


Cat

I do agree with you that most military chaplins don't have that "holier than thou" attitude toward other religions. It could be because they HAVE to understand them in order to preform services.

As for the numbers, it is very hard to tell what the exact number of Wiccans are in the military because many are still in the "broom closet" for fear of ridicule and such. I don't see how having a Wiccan chaplin would matter-as long as he/she could preform other religious services-like a Catholic military chaplin or a Jewish military chaplin would do. I just wonder how many chaplins WOULD preform a Wiccan service. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if several of them refused to-because they don't understand it and think it is "devil worshipping".


True, you would have some that resist.  But I also think you would have an even larger number that would agree, seeing it as in the best interest of the service members.

First, you would probably have to start getting these people to work together.  And of course comes the question: What is required for a Wicca service?  The vast majority of Wiccans I know congregate in small groups, rarely more then 20-30 individuals.  And most of them either hold their services inside their homes, or outside in a "Pastoral" setting.

I doubt there would be much resistance on most bases if a group of Wiccan servicemembers wanted to set aside a place to hold their services.  And most are from what I have seen pretty informal.  The group decides what it wants to do, and it is normally done by a form of Democratic decision making.

This is one of the attractions of Wicca, and also one of the threats it would suffer if it tried to get "Official Recognition".  I am sure you know Cat how the Military likes to Regimantalize everything to death.  There are even "procedures" you have to follow to do such simple things as wash and wax the floor.  If the Military was placed in control of services for Wiccans in the Military, they would regulate it to death.  Then all the informality of the religion would go straight out the window.

And I am not even going into detail about the "Fluffy Bunnies", McWiccans, Wicclets, House Hold Gods Vs Classical Pagan Gods, or any of the other various differences in sects of Wicca.  Could you even imagine what the "Official Military Manual For Wicca" would look like?  I bet if they even tried it, you would hear more screaming from Wiccans then you would now because of their "exclusion".

However, if a Wiccan went to his/her unit's Chaplain and explained their needs, I very seriously doubt that that Chaplain would not try to accomidate them if possible.  After all, their charge is to watch over the service member themselves, not to convert people to their particular religion.  In fact, attempted conversion (unless asked for by the servicemember themselves) is actually grounds for dismissal from the Chaplain Corps.

Because Military Clergy see every member of the military as a member of their "Congregation", if they belong to their exact religion or not.

I see no conflict in this, and never have.  But I guess it may seem very foreign to a Civilian, who does not really understand the way the Military works.

It's not the way the military works that seems foreign (it's utterly pragmatic), it's getting the clergy to accept that pragmatic approach.  I'm not so surprised by the rabbi (I've known quite a few in my time, and they've been some of the most open-minded and interesting people I have met... bearing in mind, of course that none were orthodox), but ISTM that what the military requires is a type of chaplain who doesn't take the "my religion is the only true one" attitude; pretty much expecting a chaplain to subordinate his/her religious beliefs to their way.

Which makes me wonder: are there female chaplains?  And if so, what do they do with those whose religions do no allow female members of the clergy?

It's not the way the military works that seems foreign (it's utterly pragmatic), it's getting the clergy to accept that pragmatic approach.  I'm not so surprised by the rabbi (I've known quite a few in my time, and they've been some of the most open-minded and interesting people I have met... bearing in mind, of course that none were orthodox), but ISTM that what the military requires is a type of chaplain who doesn't take the "my religion is the only true one" attitude; pretty much expecting a chaplain to subordinate his/her religious beliefs to their way.

Which makes me wonder: are there female chaplains?  And if so, what do they do with those whose religions do no allow female members of the clergy?


Remember, being a Military Chaplain is a "Calling".  And it takes a special form of "Preacher" to become one.  Because they both have to put aside any intolerant attitudes they may have, and to minister to the needs of the Service Members, reguardless of faith (even giving counseling to Athiests that ask for it).

And in addition, they have to be Officers, and meet all the requirements of that profession.  They have to "take to their heart" everybody in their Unit, because their main job is to provide comfort, either spiritual or emotional.

A great example I can provide is Father Mulcahy from the TV show MASH.  A Catholic Priest, he would be seen doing everything from Baptist baptism, Methodist Wedding, giving comfort and prayers to a wounded Turkish Muslim soldier, and even a Jewish Brist.  And most of his free time was spent helping at a Korean Orphanage, in which most of those would have been Budhist.

And in my 10 year experience, that would be typical behavior.  They tend to have the belief that "all people are God's children", and simply take care of them as such, wether they believe in the same God, a different God, or none at all.

And yes, there are female Chaplains.  But there are far less of them, just like there are fewer female officers and female ministers in civilian churches.

Remember, being a Military Chaplain is a "Calling".  And it takes a special form of "Preacher" to become one.  Because they both have to put aside any intolerant attitudes they may have, and to minister to the needs of the Service Members, reguardless of faith (even giving counseling to Athiests that ask for it).

And in addition, they have to be Officers, and meet all the requirements of that profession.  They have to "take to their heart" everybody in their Unit, because their main job is to provide comfort, either spiritual or emotional.

A great example I can provide is Father Mulcahy from the TV show MASH.  A Catholic Priest, he would be seen doing everything from Baptist baptism, Methodist Wedding, giving comfort and prayers to a wounded Turkish Muslim soldier, and even a Jewish Brist.  And most of his free time was spent helping at a Korean Orphanage, in which most of those would have been Budhist.

And in my 10 year experience, that would be typical behavior.  They tend to have the belief that "all people are God's children", and simply take care of them as such, wether they believe in the same God, a different God, or none at all.

And yes, there are female Chaplains.  But there are far less of them, just like there are fewer female officers and female ministers in civilian churches.


It is funny that you mention about Father Mulchahey. I was going to use him as an example in my last post. There was one episode where a Korean priestess was going to preform an exorsism and someone asked the good Father about his objection (since he was Catholic) and he said something to the effect, "I wouldn't miss this for the world." He went on (and I can't remember the exact quote) but something about the fact that "We" (the West) do not have a monopoly on spirituality.



Cat