You are not prepared to address this question with anything more than a Dennis Miller one-liner, so I'll wait for opinions formed by adult minds.



Ooooh, I bet that one hurt.

Tell the IRS that.  ;D


Well, the state of California is still trying to get $477 from me. :)



Care to clarify?


I asked if you were cranky because of that bitchy post you put in response to Andy's joke.

And my second sentence means that I will feed and give money to whoever I want, regardless of whatever lame assed law they put in effect. I don't live in Orlando or Vegas, but if I visit or (god forbid) ever decide to move to these places, no stupid law is going to stop me from helping who I can, even if it's just with a few bucks or a meal.

Sad indeed.

Hey, heroin!


Heroin addicts tend be less interested in a bowl of soup than in cadging pocket change for another score, but if there's one thing nastier than an addict jonesing, it's a hungry addict jonesing.

Alcoholics and drug addicts do account for a fair portion of any homeless population.  Most often substance abuse among homeless people is fallout from preceding mental health issues.  

If a person is addicted to opiates and suffers from bipolar disorder is he or she a less "deserving" person than you?  

Principle schminciple. I dunno how to spell.. I'm a product of an education system that's been left to rot due to vast amounts of money being diverted to social welfare projects.

Regardless.. I was kidding.

I agree with Rice. If ya wanna feed the homeless, fine, go for it. I think what this law is designed to do is (as Rice said) prevent people being accosted and pressuried, which is a fair idea.
education IS a social welfare project! maybe all the cruise missiles are the problem? talk about pissing money down the drain.

anyway, yes, obviously it says something about our country. it says the conservative cult of selfishness has become a chronic disease and america's at risk of losing its humanity. it's happened to countries before.

Heroin addicts tend be less interested in a bowl of soup than in cadging pocket change for another score, but if there's one thing nastier than an addict jonesing, it's a hungry addict jonesing.

Alcoholics and drug addicts do account for a fair portion of any homeless population.  Most often substance abuse among homeless people is fallout from preceding mental health issues. 

If a person is addicted to opiates and suffers from bipolar disorder is he or she a less "deserving" person than you? 


You should ask my wife about heroin...she hasn't done it but she knows the effects firsthand, not pretty.

I was actually referring to Red Ant's avatar.  O-chem can be your friend.


education IS a social welfare project! maybe all the cruise missiles are the problem? talk about pissing money down the drain.

anyway, yes, obviously it says something about our country. it says the conservative cult of selfishness has become a chronic disease and america's at risk of losing its humanity. it's happened to countries before.


It's probably because homeless people hinder the tourist economy that drives parts of Florida.  Kind of a crappy reason to stop feeding the homeless. 

Heroin addicts tend be less interested in a bowl of soup than in cadging pocket change for another score, but if there's one thing nastier than an addict jonesing, it's a hungry addict jonesing.

Alcoholics and drug addicts do account for a fair portion of any homeless population.  Most often substance abuse among homeless people is fallout from preceding mental health issues.  

If a person is addicted to opiates and suffers from bipolar disorder is he or she a less "deserving" person than you?  


Rice's comment was directed at my old avatar, a heroin molecule. I'm surprised someone picked up on it so quickly, but I think the subtler gag was probably overlooked.

You should ask my wife about heroin...she hasn't done it but she knows the effects firsthand, not pretty.

I was actually referring to Red Ant's avatar.  O-chem can be your friend.


I hated organic chemistry.

Rice's comment was directed at my old avatar, a heroin molecule. I'm surprised someone picked up on it so quickly, but I think the subtler gag was probably overlooked.


Ooooh ooooh!  Is it because heroin is acetylated morphine?  :o :o

I wanna know the gag.

Morphine?  Did someone call me?

You should ask my wife about heroin...she hasn't done it but she knows the effects firsthand, not pretty.

I was actually referring to Red Ant's avatar.  O-chem can be your friend.

It's probably because homeless people hinder the tourist economy that drives parts of Florida.  Kind of a crappy reason to stop feeding the homeless. 


Yes, but they weren't homeless. Just stupid. At least one of them recovered.

Orlando is a craphole. So is Vegas.

Yeah, once you get off the Strip, Vegas is hella scary :o

I asked if you were cranky because of that bitchy post you put in response to Andy's joke.
Joke? Some joke!  Yes, Andy's inanities make me a bit cranky, but that's my problem!

And my second sentence means that I will feed and give money to whoever I want, regardless of whatever lame assed law they put in effect. I don't live in Orlando or Vegas, but if I visit or (god forbid) ever decide to move to these places, no stupid law is going to stop me from helping who I can, even if it's just with a few bucks or a meal.

Good.  That's what I thought you meant.  So far nobody has been arrested for "feeding the homeless" in Orlando yet.  Could start happening.  I should say the best way to approach the problem is to find charitable organizations that are working directly with the homeless population and donate to them.  As mentioned above, unfortunately many homeless people have substance abuse problems.  If you give a homeless person a few bucks, maybe he'll buy food, maybe he'll drink it.  Sometimes it's obvious a homeless person is a drunk or a junkie, sometimes not.  After a few months on the streets, a person looks pretty beat and disheveled.  
:(

Ooooh ooooh!  Is it because heroin is acetylated morphine?  :o :o

I wanna know the gag.
gene tard! why you talking all retarded?

Ooooh ooooh!  Is it because heroin is acetylated morphine?  :o :o

I wanna know the gag.


I'd give it to you but in just 10 replies here we've gone from not feeding the homeless to organic chemisty. Kinda off topic.  I'm sure you can figure it out.

gene tard! why you talking all retarded?


Heroin = morphine + vinegar :)  (there's some steps in between or else you crack one of the rings)


I'd give it to you but in just 10 replies here we've gone from not feeding the homeless to organic chemisty. Kinda off topic.  I'm sure you can figure it out.


I have the flu so now I'm an idiot.  PM me :D

next you're gonna be talking all like a planet homo.

Yes, but they weren't homeless. Just stupid. At least one of them recovered.

Orlando is a craphole. So is Vegas.

My friend is a counselor in a methadone clinic.  Her stories are pretty depressing.  I've also known a few heroin addicts.  They were nice people, but I wouldn't let them into my house...heck, I wouldn't turn my back on them.  They'll rob you blind.  Is that nice?  Of course not!  Ever been jonesing?  I haven't, but they tell me you'll do anything to get a fix!  Anything.
::)


Yeah, once you get off the Strip, Vegas is hella scary :o

The Strip is scary in its own horrid way!

My friend is a counselor in a methadone clinic.  Her stories are pretty depressing.  I've also known a few heroin addicts.  They were nice people, but I wouldn't let them into my house...heck, I wouldn't turn my back on them.  They'll rob you blind.  Is that nice?  Of course not!  Ever been jonesing?  I haven't, but they tell me you'll do anything to get a fix!  Anything.
::)


It was my aunt and uncle.

the right is just... REALLY starting to piss me off. i never cared for it much to begin with but seriously...

the right is just... REALLY starting to piss me off. i never cared for it much to begin with but seriously...

The right-wing cycle that started 26 years ago with Reagan has played out.  I do predict if Hillary or Obama gets the nomination, we'll have a another Republican president again, but the conservative shindig is over.  We've wasted all the resources we had to waste.

education IS a social welfare project! maybe all the cruise missiles are the problem? talk about pissing money down the drain.

anyway, yes, obviously it says something about our country. it says the conservative cult of selfishness has become a chronic disease and america's at risk of losing its humanity. it's happened to countries before.


We've lost our humanity. I wont debate that.

I'd rather have that extra $1 so I can go to Hardees instead of McDonalds. If I give it to a homeless guy, I can't match my consumer needs.

I'm being honest when I say that I don't care that millions die in Africa, I really don't. They're not me.. and this is the same opinion millions of us have. Throwing $500 at them is just to ease some left over guilt.


Joke? Some joke!  Yes, Andy's inanities make me a bit cranky, but that's my problem!


My day = complete.

;D I jest.

well... at least he's honest. :D

i dont feel guilt and shame and horror over famine in africa on a moment-to-moment basis, but i definitely wish me and the people i loved lived in the kind of world where crap like that didn't happen.

dying of starvation is pretty much the worst way to die outside of outright torture. your body starts digesting itself, over a period of weeks.

well... at least he's honest. :D

i dont feel guilt and shame and horror over famine in africa on a moment-to-moment basis, but i definitely wish me and the people i loved lived in the kind of world where crap like that didn't happen.

dying of starvation is pretty much the worst way to die outside of outright torture. your body starts digesting itself, over a period of weeks.


Yup.

It sure does suck.

Fact is, there's just too many of us.

We've lost our humanity. I wont debate that.

I'd rather have that extra $1 so I can go to Hardees instead of McDonalds. If I give it to a homeless guy, I can't match my consumer needs.

I'm being honest when I say that I don't care that millions die in Africa, I really don't. They're not me.. and this is the same opinion millions of us have. Throwing $500 at them is just to ease some left over guilt.


I should give you karma just to piss you off. :D

I applaud your honesty, but I disagree. I have no guilt for being better off than hundreds of millions of people. However, I haven't lost my humanity, so I truly feel bad for the people of Africa who are starving, suffering from AIDS, dying in civil wars, etc. Like Tia, I wish to God that we didn't have to hear this every day, that such horrors didn't exist. They do though, and it would be nice to remember that and help when we can.

Yup.

It sure does suck.

Fact is, there's just too many of us.
you're probably right, but as long as we're gonna all die in road warriorland anyway, might as well TRY and avert catastrophe. you know, just to give us something to do.

I should give you karma just to piss you off. :D

I applaud your honesty, but I disagree. I have no guilt for being better off than hundreds of millions of people. However, I haven't lost my humanity, so I truly feel bad for the people of Africa who are starving, suffering from AIDS, dying in civil wars, etc. Like Tia, I wish to God that we didn't have to hear this every day, that such horrors didn't exist. They do though, and it would be nice to remember that and help when we can.


In all honesty, I'd be real happy if there was something I could do to fix it, but throwing money at the problem does nothing. It just substantiates it.


you're probably right, but as long as we're gonna all die in road warriorland anyway, might as well TRY and avert catastrophe. you know, just to give us something to do.


Tactial Nuclear Warfare, reduce the worlds population, allows the remaining individuals to reap the benefits.

I figure... all the countrys that are too dumb to develope nukes by this time in 2010, get nuked.  ;D

okay. that's pretty funny. ;D

ever see the georgia guidestones? it's a stonehenge knockoff in georgia, not far from bob jones university. no one knows who made it. i read this weird-ass right wing conspiracy theory (and as a lover of consipracy theories, i gave it four stars) that yoko ono secretly built it, but i rather suspect the good folks at BJU.

anyway, the upshot of it is that it has a bunch of prescriptive ideas scrawled on it, one of which is that population needs to be kept down to 500 million for harmony and balance. funny thing about depopulation buffs -- they always think they're gonna be among the survivors! when, statistically, they probably won't. america won't be owning the world you're talking about, this high-tech military that looks so great now will get dusted up so fast it'll make our head spin. and then there's gonna be waves of chinese dudes coming over the hill and we'll still be trying to start our tanks.

sorry. i digress. but upshot? depopulation = BAD.

okay. that's pretty funny. ;D

ever see the georgia guidestones? it's a stonehenge knockoff in georgia, not far from bob jones university. no one knows who made it. i read this weird-ass right wing conspiracy theory (and as a lover of consipracy theories, i gave it four stars) that yoko ono secretly built it, but i rather suspect the good folks at BJU.

anyway, the upshot of it is that it has a bunch of prescriptive ideas scrawled on it, one of which is that population needs to be kept down to 500 million for harmony and balance. funny thing about depopulation buffs -- they always think they're gonna be among the survivors! when, statistically, they probably won't. america won't be owning the world you're talking about, this high-tech military that looks so great now will get dusted up so fast it'll make our head spin. and then there's gonna be waves of chinese dudes coming over the hill and we'll still be trying to start our tanks.

sorry. i digress. but upshot? depopulation = BAD.


Actually.. a reasonable population would be around 4 billion people, but spread equally and with strict birth control laws in effect. Plus! Useing renewable food and energy sources, that'll help.

Actually.. a reasonable population would be around 4 billion people, but spread equally and with strict birth control laws in effect. Plus! Useing renewable food and energy sources, that'll help.
if we start systematically eating babies as is advocated by the Cannibal Corpse party, that would help things along immensely.

if we start systematically eating babies as is advocated by the Cannibal Corpse party, that would help things along immensely.


Plus liberal amounts of Brutal Bludgeoning.

I read this story a few days ago and I must admit that I was outraged by it. I understand what some people are saying about beggers but what I remember about the article, it was talking about soup kitchens too.


I'm sure many of you know that I used to run the local food shelf. While we did have a few homeless people come in, the majority of the people who came in were families. They were one step away from being homeless. And some of the homeless people WERE families, too. I remember one family who were living in their car. A lot of people have a misconception about the homeless. They usually think of the stereotype wino/drug addict drinking wine out of a paper bag, sleeping on a park bench. Many are homeless because they lost their jobs (which probably went overseas) and were evicted because they couldn't pay rent. Or they could have lost their home in a fire/hurracane and didn't have insurance (or the insurance company screwed them over-Katrina anyone?) Feeding these people is just one way to help these people until they can get back on their feet. And for anyone who doesn't have at least empathy for these people, I just hope that you never find yourself in their situation.



Cat

In all honesty,
I hate that "in all honesty" thing.  My ex used to say that, even when she meant "in partial honesty."
::)

I hate that "in all honesty" thing.  My ex used to say that, even when she meant "in partial honesty."
::)


Thankfully.. I'm not your ex.

Thankfully.. I'm not your ex.



You're thankful?  I'm thankful.

The concept of out of sight out of mind comes to play here. Homeless people make a city look unattractive to rich tourist.  We stop feeding them then they'll have to go somewhere else.  Actually that's not always true.

1) Where are they supposed to go?  No, I don't care just as long as they're not here is not a good answer.

2)  I know a lot of homeless people who have tried to find jobs (Lazy?)  Some work temp jobs in order to pay for a motel room for a week.

3) To make feeding a homeless person ilegal infringes on a person who feels they have a moral and ethical duty to care for their fellow human beings.

I figure... all the countrys that are too dumb to develope nukes by this time in 2010, get nuked.  ;D

Yeah, but we won't even let the ones we don't like make nukes, so that's not fair!
:D

You're thankful?  I'm thankful.

YOU wouldn't even be allowed in line!
;D
Happy V-day!

YOU wouldn't even be allowed in line!
;D
Happy V-day!



Allowed?  I wouldn't volunteer for that line.

Allowed?  I wouldn't volunteer for that line.


http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o283/Nerdprincess1980/Daaaaammmnnn-b33p.jpg

Allowed?  I wouldn't volunteer for that line.

Woo-hooo!  I got told!  Shut down!
:-[

dag, it's getting snarky in here!

what exactly does "snarky" mean, anyhoo?

and just so yall know -- i'd bang anyone and everyone here. cuz i'm a trollop.

dag, it's getting snarky in here!

what exactly does "snarky" mean, anyhoo?

and just so yall know -- i'd bang anyone and everyone here. cuz i'm a trollop.



snarky = sarcastic, impertinent, or irreverent in tone or manner

wait. what's trollop mean, again?

man, the ceiling really needs painting.

wait. what's trollop mean, again?

man, the ceiling really needs painting.



Trollop = easy lady

I read this story a few days ago and I must admit that I was outraged by it. I understand what some people are saying about beggers but what I remember about the article, it was talking about soup kitchens too.


I'm sure many of you know that I used to run the local food shelf. While we did have a few homeless people come in, the majority of the people who came in were families. They were one step away from being homeless. And some of the homeless people WERE families, too. I remember one family who were living in their car. A lot of people have a misconception about the homeless. They usually think of the stereotype wino/drug addict drinking wine out of a paper bag, sleeping on a park bench. Many are homeless because they lost their jobs (which probably went overseas) and were evicted because they couldn't pay rent. Or they could have lost their home in a fire/hurracane and didn't have insurance (or the insurance company screwed them over-Katrina anyone?) Feeding these people is just one way to help these people until they can get back on their feet. And for anyone who doesn't have at least empathy for these people, I just hope that you never find yourself in their situation.



Cat

Well, some people around here think it's cutely provocative to talk like neo-nazis.  I don't expect any serious contemplation from the person/persons I shall refer to as "some people around here."  Thus, I'm not addressing "some people around here."

Ever try to get a job or enroll your kids in school when you have no legal address?

The idea that some people find it morally palatable for anybody to go homeless is shocking to me.  I guess it shouldn't be.  Bill O'Reilly looked straight into the camera in early September of 2005 and declared the plight of the poor citizens of New Orleans was their own fault.  If they weren't poor, they could get out of town.  If they hadn't chosen to be shiftless, lazy, good-for-nothings the wouldn't be poor.  That was his message.  FOX News is the conscience of the Right in this country.  Go figure.
::)

Well, some people around here think it's cutely provocative to talk like neo-nazis.  I don't expect any serious contemplation from the person/persons I shall refer to as "some people around here."  Thus, I'm not addressing "some people around here."

Ever try to get a job or enroll your kids in school when you have no legal address?

The idea that some people find it morally palatable for anybody to go homeless is shocking to me.  I guess it shouldn't be.  Bill O'Reilly looked straight into the camera in early September of 2005 and declared the plight of the poor citizens of New Orleans was their own fault.  If they weren't poor, they could get out of town.  If they hadn't chosen to be shiftless, lazy, good-for-nothings the wouldn't be poor.  That was his message.  FOX News is the conscience of the Right in this country.  Go figure.
::)
"Morally palatable for anybody to go homeless"?  Sorry, call me what you will, but if there's a junkie or drunk who's pis.sed away anything and everything they've ever had and they end up homeless, I have no sympathy for them.  Now, if it's a mother/father who's done the same, I have sympathy for the kids, but not the parents.  I understand that there are people who are there by no fault of their own and I'd have no problem helping them......but, if a homeless person walks by me and smells like the Anheuser-Busch brewery, they can keep on walking.....

Well, some people around here think it's cutely provocative to talk like neo-nazis.  I don't expect any serious contemplation from the person/persons I shall refer to as "some people around here."  Thus, I'm not addressing "some people around here."

And yet you mentioned it and anyone with half a brain knows who you're talking about. ::)

Well, some people around here think it's cutely provocative to talk like neo-nazis.  I don't expect any serious contemplation from the person/persons I shall refer to as "some people around here."  Thus, I'm not addressing "some people around here."

Ever try to get a job or enroll your kids in school when you have no legal address?

The idea that some people find it morally palatable for anybody to go homeless is shocking to me.  I guess it shouldn't be.  Bill O'Reilly looked straight into the camera in early September of 2005 and declared the plight of the poor citizens of New Orleans was their own fault.  If they weren't poor, they could get out of town.  If they hadn't chosen to be shiftless, lazy, good-for-nothings the wouldn't be poor.  That was his message.  FOX News is the conscience of the Right in this country.  Go figure.
::)


Xaaanaaaaax.



The fact that there are so many homeless in the US is an unfortunate fact. I believe the standard of living in the US is still one of the highest in the world, so.. it's pretty pathetic that we as a nation can't keep everybody in a house.
That being said.
A major problem is the ridiclous criteria set on these people. If you're not of sound mind, no chance. If you can't prove that you can find cash.. and quick.. no chance.

I think this has been discussed before.
Many people are poor, not so much through choice, but simply because they either don't know any different or they're just lazy.
Yes, although the Left dosen't like to admit it.. there are actually lazy invidividuals (the majorty of whom vote for the welfare party) who really just don't want to work. Whole familys that just..just.. meet the criteria and are therefor put up in a maisonette with food stamps and running water, whereas poor joe schmuk out on the street hasn't done any breeding recently, so he can't thrust an infant in the authorities face and say "Gimmie a house."

Oh.. and Fox news is nobodys conscience. (Nobody who counts anyway.)

Please.. get over this idea that everybody that dosen't want to live in some communist utopia is in fact a card carrying member of the Neo-Conservative wing of the Republican party.

And yet you mentioned it and anyone with half a brain knows who you're talking about. ::)
Of course, haven't you realized it yet?  Everyone who doesn't agree with some people is automatically "ignorant" ::)

Of course, haven't you realized it yet?  Everyone who doesn't agree with some people is automatically "ignorant" ::)


I've noticed that. Looks like the fun is about to end. Again.

ya know max? i dont mean to lecture... and... you know what my personal political proclivities are and most of the stuff you post, i actually agree with. but you have a certain prickliness to your approach that i think might be hurting the cause at least as much as it helps it. i'm just sayin'. what's the thing about flies, honey and vinegar?

periodically conceding points, throwing in little olive branches like "i see what you're saying but..." and doing stuff like that, you might actually get people who originally disagreed with you to actually see more of your point of view. you'll probably reach more people than just being really strident. i know i do it too, sometimes, but you'd be surprised, for instance, how easy it is to have an actual exchange with davey thrashmister. politically i disagree with him almost all the time, rice and jessica i disagree with not as often but... often... but i find exchange pretty easy with them.

i dunno, soemthing to think about. i know politics has that effect anyway, of making people dig in and harsh out people who disagree, but it's a good thing to try and resist that impulse as much as possible, i think.

Last year Las Vegas, NV, made it illegal to go feed hungry homeless people.  Orlando is pushing for a similar measure.
http://orlandofoodnotbombs.org/orlandosentinel4.html

What does this say about our country?


Too many chiefs, not enough indians, and the chiefs have lost their noggans.

ya know max? i dont mean to lecture... and... you know what my personal political proclivities are and most of the stuff you post, i actually agree with. but you have a certain prickliness to your approach that i think might be hurting the cause at least as much as it helps it. i'm just sayin'. what's the thing about flies, honey and vinegar?

periodically conceding points, throwing in little olive branches like "i see what you're saying but..." and doing stuff like that, you might actually get people who originally disagreed with you to actually see more of your point of view. you'll probably reach more people than just being really strident. i know i do it too, sometimes, but you'd be surprised, for instance, how easy it is to have an actual exchange with davey thrashmister. politically i disagree with him almost all the time, rice and jessica i disagree with not as often but... often... but i find exchange pretty easy with them.

i dunno, soemthing to think about. i know politics has that effect anyway, of making people dig in and harsh out people who disagree, but it's a good thing to try and resist that impulse as much as possible, i think.



Your last statement is particularly why I avoided this board for SO long after joining. . .Politics can bring out the worst in people sometimes. . .although I have agreed with Maxwell on most of what I've seen him post. . .I don't hate people or view them any lower as a result of their political opinion. . .Believe it or not, I have found that both the Liberal and Conservative opinions on this website are much more in tune with reality in that they are both reasonable and debatable without being rude, forceful or hateful. . .I find that to be refreshing to actually be able to conversate like adults rather than hearing one trash word after the other. . .

Your last statement is particularly why I avoided this board for SO long after joining. . .Politics can bring out the worst in people sometimes. . .although I have agreed with Maxwell on most of what I've seen him post. . .I don't hate people or view them any lower as a result of their political opinion. . .Believe it or not, I have found that both the Liberal and Conservative opinions on this website are much more in tune with reality in that they are both reasonable and debatable without being rude, forceful or hateful. . .I find that to be refreshing to actually be able to conversate like adults rather than hearing one trash word after the other. . .


Yo.

Yeah, even I!! agreed with this dude on some points and we're polar opposites.  ;D

Your last statement is particularly why I avoided this board for SO long after joining. . .Politics can bring out the worst in people sometimes. . .although I have agreed with Maxwell on most of what I've seen him post. . .I don't hate people or view them any lower as a result of their political opinion. . .Believe it or not, I have found that both the Liberal and Conservative opinions on this website are much more in tune with reality in that they are both reasonable and debatable without being rude, forceful or hateful. . .I find that to be refreshing to actually be able to conversate like adults rather than hearing one trash word after the other. . .

Great Post!

Sometimes i avoid certain topics 'cause i tend to be too passionate,and therefore totally subjective.Plus english is not my first language so it can be hard to get my point across :-\\
About this topic i could go on and on about what's like to be homeless,how that can really happen to anyone,not because you're lazy or an addict,most of the people i've met that live on the streets had a good life,they were just like you and me,and then one day they lost it,for whatever reason and found themselves in a really bad situation,the alcohol,the drugs most of the times came afterwards. I consider myself lucky because i'm healthy,i'm young,i can work...but not all have that luxury.
Anyway,i think it's interesting to hear everyone's p.o.v.,if we can't speak our mind here,then where the hell can we?

Too many chiefs, not enough indians, and the chiefs have lost their noggans.
I'll agree with not enough Indians.I'd like to see an all you can eat Indian buffet within walking distance from my house.And indian restaurant workers like to give foiod to homeless if they ask for it.

Last year Las Vegas, NV, made it illegal to go feed hungry homeless people.  Orlando is pushing for a similar measure.
http://orlandofoodnotbombs.org/orlandosentinel4.html

What does this say about our country?


They did not make it illegal to feed the homeless.  They simply made it illegal to feed large groups of them in certain locations without a special permit.  I read from the first line of the law:

The Orlando City Council recently made it unlawful for any group or individual to feed 25 or more people in a downtown park without a special permit.

In other words, you can still open a soup kitchen in your house or other private location.  You can still give handouts to individuals or small groups of people.  You can even set up in the parking lot of a business and do it.  You simply can't feed large numbers of people in a city park without a permit.

Myself, I have no problem with this.  They are not outlawing it, simply putting in some regulations, so the city parks do not become a haven for homeless people.  Anybody that has ever been to Lincoln Park in Long Beach California can tell you what a littered mess it is, with the homeless sleeping all over the park, and urinating wherever they please.  And they stay there all day long, because there are constantly "Church Groups" delivering food and supplies there all day long.

If groups or people feel that strongly about "The Homeless", then they need to set something up on their own property.  Don't use the public parks.

And before some of you attack me for this, think about this:  I have been homeless several times in my life.  For 6 months, I would get meals in Lincoln Park in Long Beach.  The park is an absolute mess, and the bathrooms are a haven for prostitution and drug use.  Nobody else in the city uses that park anymore, because it is no longer safe.

Even when I was getting food there, I wondered why the groups did not have us go to their church to get it.  It would let us eat out of the cold/rain, and they would make sure that all the trash was picked up.  I guess it is just easier to drop off the food.  That way you can feel good about "doing something good", and not have to deal with issues like trash, and a large number of homeless hanging around all the time.

Of course, I never "hung out" in the park myself.  I would stop by for a meal, then normally head to the library (which is where I spent my time when I was not out looking for a job).

I have sympathy for every alcoholic, drug addicted, mentally ill homeless person out there.  That doesn't make me a better person.  I could certainly do more for the cause of helping the homeless.  If it makes other folks feel better to declare their lack of sympathy, then have at it!

We don't really have a social safety net in this country.  Millions of people go "homeless" every year.  There's a difference between being homeless and living on the street.  A lot of "homeless" people live in very uncomfortable situations with friends or relatives, but they do have a roof over their heads.  They're still "homeless" from my perspective because they have no home of their own.

The ones we colloquially call "bums" represent only a small percent of the housing insecure population.  When I go to any of my usual urban haunts, I see homeless people.  Many of them have been out there for years.  Others come and go.  The long-term "street people" tend to be substance abusers with underlying psychiatric problems.

NPR did a story on how tough it is to "count the homeless."  What the story failed to discuss was the number of people who do have a place to sleep at night and live in constant anxiety over losing that place.  A lot of them are working for a living and can't afford the rent because housing costs have soared way ahead of wages in the past 20 years. 

It is an unfair and unrealistic point of view of the poverty rampant in this country to think of the drunk in the alley when you think of "homelessness." 

Somebody asked me in e-mail just a few monutes ago about how I ended up homeless.  I have said in here what happened several times, but I we have had some new users recently who have not heard what happened to me.  So here is what I sent to this person.  I am not ashamed of what happened, seeing it as simply "something that happened".

*****

The first time was in 1998.  This was several months after my fiancee died, and I fell into depression.  At the same time, I was laid off from my job.  This was during one of the many "computer recessions", and living in LA, you are literally 2 months from being homeless.  My monthly "Unemployment" was around $600, and my rent alone was more then that.

Luckily, I was able to get another job after only a few months, and was back on my feet again.  But a year later, I got caught by the computer recession of 2000.  I was on the street for 6 months that time.  Thankfully there was a non profit Veterans group that helped me get back on my feet until business turned around.

But in April 2001, I was laid off from Boeing in the 2001 recession.  I worked a few jobs to keep things going, but by October, I was homeless again.  I stayed this way until April of 2002.  During this entire time I was actually working, but with the cost of rent and security deposit, I needed around $1,500 to get another place.  I finally found somebody who needed a roommate, and lived there until I moved to Alabama in early 2003.

In total, I spent over a year living in shelters and in my car.  I was one of maybe 5% that were "Working Homeless" in the shelter.  In fact, the last time I was working at 2 different jobs.

The vast majority had either drug or alcohol problems, and many had mental issues.  Most did not even try to look for work, they simply wanted everything handed to them.  While most panhandled on the street for money, I would go to a blood bank 2 times a week.

So I have seen first hand how most homeless are.  I have been there, and I really do not have much sympathy for them, because the vast majority have done it to themselves.  They do not even look for work, and will even turn down help if offered (I tried to get others to go to the Veterans Facility, but they all refused because they require you to be "Clean & Sober", and do drug and alcohol checks, even though food and housing was provided for free, including job placement.

http://www.usvetsinc.org/

To me, the homeless need 2 things more then handouts.  Primarily, they need to be willing to get themselves out of their situation.  Secondly, they need people or organizations that are willing to help them do that.  Simply feeding them or giving them a shelter is not enough.  That may make church groups feel good, but in reality it does no good.  All that does is make it easier for the homeless to continue to use drugs and/or alcohol, and to continue to live in horrible conditions.  The vast majority simply do not want to help themselves, they seem to think that they should get anything they want.

*****

In total, I have lived on the streets for around a year to a year and a half, in 3-6 month segments.  Every time, I worked my way out of it.  And I do not accept drug or alcohol abuse as an excuse.  If drugs or alcohol are more important then holding a job or keeping a roof over your head, then that person has a serious problem, and needs help.  They have basically made a conscious choice to "drop out" of society.

As for the mentally ill, it is more complex.  Since President Reagan made the decision that it was illegal to keep the non-violent mentally ill institutionalized, huge numbers have made the decision to not go to hospitals and treatment facilities and take care of themselves.  And sadly, that means a lot of them live on the street.  And there is a lot of help out there, if they would only accept it.  But that help normally means being institutionalized, the thing most of them do not want.

Of those I knew living in the Long Beach shelters (there are 3 of them), probably 80% have drug and/or alcohol problems.  another 30% have mental issues (some aggravated by drugs/alcohol).  Only about 5% were like me, homeless from purely economic reasons.  And when I ended up in the shelter after being out for over a year, I saw a lot of the same people who had never left the shelter.  And since I often went to Long Beach to go shopping, I would see a lot of them even 2 and 3 years later.

If groups in Florida (or anywhere else) really want to help the homeless, don't just give them things.  Get together with other churches and civic groups, and open a full time shelter.  Provide mental health and dependency counseling, to help those who have such problems get over them.  Provide job placement and assistance, to help them get back into "Mainstream America".  These are things that will really help the homeless.

Anything else is simply bullsheesh, that only makes you feel better.  It does the homeless no good at all.  Look up "Enabeler" and "Co-Dependent" if you don't believe me.  People who feed homeless in city parks are classic enablers.

^

I'm not going to psychoanalyze you here, but I think I get why you remain a Republican after all that.

Deinstitutionalization has it's roots in the introduction of antipsychotics, such as Thorazine, in the 1950s.  It really started taking off in the '70s and reached its apex in the '80s.  There are very few old-style "state hospitals" left today.  It was an easy sell to close them all.  They were at best unpleasant and at worst barbaric.  The community-based half-way house/outpatient/rehabilitation infrastructure that was supposed to replace and improve upon the state hospital system never really came to fruition--hence the numbers of mentally ill homeless since the '80s.  Yes, since Reagan it's nigh impossible to have a patient "committed" who is not a danger to himself or others---and even when the patient presents a danger it's nigh impossible to detain that person for very long.

We've gone back to the 18th century.  Back then the mentally ill were allowed to roam the streets until they got in trouble.  Then they were sent to jail.  Today, prisons have replaced mental hospitals as the detention facilities for psychiatric patients.

Even if a mentally ill person both needs and wants to be committed long-term, it ain't gonna happen nowadays.  There are a lot of people with psychiatric issues who are not able to care for themselves and know they need the help they can't get. 

We've gone back to the 18th century.  Back then the mentally ill were allowed to roam the streets until they got in trouble.  Then they were sent to jail.  Today, prisons have replaced mental hospitals as the detention facilities for psychiatric patients.


So what is the solution?  Forcing non-dangerous people to spend their lives in institutions, even if they do not want to be there?

Here is the catch-22.  Neither solution is good.  If you force them in institutions, then you are imprisoning them without cause and without due process of law.  If you let them leave, they are often not able to take care of themselves.  Many are functional, and are able to live like most citizens.  Others are left to wander the streets, screaming obscenities and talking to imaginary friends.

Either way, people will complain that things are being done wrong.  But in this case, I have to side with the group that is supporting the "Civil Liberties" of the homeless.  And ironically, the reason this first came to attention was because of a series of ACLU lawsuits.  Yes, the ACLU and Ronald Reagan are responsible for lunatics living in the street.

Of course, not everybody who is mentally ill is homeless.  The rich ones are called "Eccentric".


I'm not going to psychoanalyze you here, but I think I get why you remain a Republican after all that.


I really don't think you get it Max.  Nothing personal there.

And in response to the e-mail response I got about people who are homeless because of not enough Social Security, that is again a different matter.

A lot of people tend to classify "Homeless" into one large group.  I see it very differently, having been there myself.

The first group are the drunks and druggies.  Then you have those who are in hiding (criminals) and those who have simply decided to "drop out" of society.  For them, I have no pity.  I view their homelessness as self-caused.  And if they really wanted to, they could get themselves out of it.  But most are so into either the next high, or to immersed in self-pity to ever do that, so homeless they remain.

Then you have the mentally ill.  These people are half and half.  I want to help these people, but how can you do that, short of locking most of them up?  Locking them up is not a solution, and neither is letting them remain on the street.  If somebody can find a solution, I would love to hear it.  And I am not talking about "the blame game".  That may make some people feel good, but it does not solve the problem of giving somebody help who does not want to be helped.  (BTW, most of those on the streets are very paranoid, and how do you help somebody that is afraid of everything?)

Then you have what I call "Economic Homeless".  Now these are the people I really want to help.  These are people like myself, like somebody my e-mail friend knows, the woman who has a rent increase, but not an SSI increase, the guy who is laid off and can't get another job, the gal who is injured and not able to get back to work.  These are the people who tend to be homeless for a short period of time.  And for the most part, they are there through no fault of their own.  These are the people who can be helped the most, but the system is so stressed helping the "Basketcases", that there is not enough for them.

US Vets is a great organization, and it helped me a lot when I needed it.  They only help homeless veterans, but only those who are willing to work themselves.  If you have current drug or alcohol addictions, you are not welcome.  Sobriety for 30 days is required.  But once you are accepted in the program, they will feed you, house you, clothe you, even give you training and bus passes to get work.  And there are counseling sessions every day of the week, to help with addiction or other problems.

However, the group also has a high failure rate.  Over 50% wash out in the first month, the majority of them going back to drugs or alcohol.  Ironically, they were the only group I could find that would assist homeless that did not have drug or alcohol problems.  Their only requirement was that you have an honorable discharge.  Of those that pass the 3-18 month program, the vast majority then re-enter society with no problems.

I would love to see more groups like US Vets out there.  Not just for veterans, but for all homeless (no matter what the cause).  This way, those who really want to stop being homeless can get the help they need.  But with a roughly 50% failure rate, half of them would still end up back on the street, because they simply do not want to be anything but drunks and druggies.

I am going to give a rundown of what I think is a very well run Homeless Assistance program.  This is what I went through in 2000-2001, with the help of US Vets.

http://www.usvetsinc.org/

Now the "Campus" is in the dorm that was donated to the group by Northrup Aircraft.  It was formerly the dorm for their Avionics school, and looks like a traditional dorm or military barracks.  Most of the rooms are clustered in a group of 4 rooms around a common lounge.  The 4 rooms share a bathroom.

Before you can enter the program, you have to go through a screening.  This is mostly making sure you qualify.  An Honorable Discharge is required, and you must be clean and sober for at least 30 days.  If you do not meet the sobriety requirements, they will show you where you can get short-term houseing until you have the required "Clean Time".  We have even had people sleep in the parking lot during this time.

Meals are served 2 times a day, morning and evening.  And this is open to all homeless vets, not just those that live there.  The food is nothing special, basically like dorm or military food everywhere.

Once you are in the program, you go through a 30 day "Transition Period".  During this time, you have a 10pm cerfew.  You live in 4 man rooms, and have to attend counseling sessions appropriate to your condition (drug, alcohol, mental issues, handicapped, etc).  You are also screened to see if you can enter one of their training programs.  These vary, covering everything from auto repair, computers, HVAC, catering, and everything else imagineable.  Most of these are paid for by various Federal Grants, and by donations (some from the schools themselves).

During the first 30 days and your entire training program, you live rent free.  You also get a "bag lunch" every day.  You can also get free bus passes, no matter what you want them for.

At the end of the Transitional Period, you can stay for an additional 60 days, until you get a job.  After 1 month working, you enter the "Transitional Living" phase.  In this, the cerfew is removed and you are moved up to 2 man room.  You can also get your own phone if you desire.  Rent if very cheap (around $500 a month), and you still get free food 2 times a day.

Transitional living can be a permanent arrangement.  The only requirement is that you pay your rent, and submit to drug and alcohol test when required.  There is no cerfew, and you must stay clean and sober (even if you do not have an alcohol problem).  I know some people that have been living in "Transitional Living" for almost 10 years.

There are other benefits to living there as well.  Because it is recognized by the VA as a "Treatment Center", all residents qualify for free treatment by the VA, no matter what the problem is.  And if you are out of work, you can voluntarily move back to the Transitional Program" if you are out of work (space available).

And there are single rooms available, but the waiting list is 3-4 months.  I lived in a single room for about 6 months, and it was really nice.  Other then sharing a common bathroom with 3 other guys, it was not much different from living in a motel (which I had done many times working on the road).  You are free to have your own furniture, and can come and go as you please.  The drug and alcohol tests were done maybe once every 2 months.

When I first entered US Vets, it was brand new.  And their only location was the LA facility (Westside Residence Hall).

http://www.usvetsinc.org/locations/location.asp?ID=4

Probably the only drawback was that it was under the approach for overseas flights into LAX.  During my time there, they opened the Long Beach facility (on the old married housing for Terminal Island), Houston, and Hawaii.  Since then they have opened facilities in 5 other cities, and it has a lot of support from various people and organizations.

Most of the "dropouts" occur in the 30 day transitional period.  During my 7 months in transition (1 month entry, 6 month training) I went through at least 10 roomates.  Only 3 of them finished the 30 day period (1 dropped for theft, 1 for not following cerfew, 5 for returning to drugs or alcohol).  But for those that enter the Transitional Living phase, the success rate is very high.  Most continue to live there for another 3-12 months, then move out to their own apartment.  Some even choose to stay there permanently, as staff members of the facility.

And we had several that were there who were disabled.  The rent is low enough that SSI pays for everything, and sometimes the VA pays for disabled vets to live there.  We had one guy who was in his 60's, and lost a lot of his mental capacity in an auto accident.  He was not able to care for himself, but the facility gave him enough support that he was able to live there, without having to go to a mental facility or nursing home.

To me, this is a homeless program that works.  And I would love to see it copied to help others who are homeless.  But the problem is that it will only help those who are willing to help themselves.  Because of this, it will never solve the homeless problem.  But it will help those that are truely willing to get off of the street.

And having gone through the program, I can testify that it works very well.  For those willing to follow the rules and work at getting off the street.  Many times, I would try to get homeless vets to go to the program.  I handed out at least 100 cards to people claiming to be homeless vets, urging them to check the program out.  As far as I know, none of them ever went.  That alone is a sad commentary to the real problems of most of the homeless.

Dude, I don't have time to read all that right now.
::)

I said mentally ill people cannot even commit themselves to long-term institutionalization. 

There are no easy solutions.  That's the problem.  If there is no easy solution, our government won't even try to solve the problem.  Our government is no longer in the business of governing but in the business of business.  That's the core of the problem.  I would venture to say the current administration isn't even in the business of business but in the business of organized crime.  Tens of billions of dollars have been stolen in the Iraq war while wounded vets live in roach motels. 

Yeah, people go homeless for lots of reasons but whatever the reason, it benefits nobody for them to be homeless.  There may be a small percentage of homeless people who would "choose" to remain homeless in the face of a viable alternative.  The willing homeless canard got started by right-wing thugs such as Ed Meese and George H.W. Bush.  Meese said people go to soup kitchens because they're "too lazy to cook at home."  Dadd Bush said people go homeless because "they like the outdoor lifestyle."

Even when a man with the conservative mindset can see most plainly the absurdity of the sturdy beggar canards, he cannot allow the truth into his consciousness because blaming the victim is a cornerstone of contemporary conservatism.  Without it, the entire facade starts to crumble.

this whole thread could use getting distilled down to an executive summary, or maybe an abstract.

bullet points, people! cut to the chase! conciseness!

this whole thread could use getting distilled down to an executive summary, or maybe an abstract.

bullet points, people! cut to the chase! conciseness!

I could use some distilled spirits after reading this thread...and I'm the who started it!

I could use some distilled spirits after reading this thread...and I'm the who started it!

yeah, i get that a lot too. thread blowback.

yeah, i get that a lot too. thread blowback.

Yeah, you start out with one topic and by post 15, mister so-n-so is giving you his diatribe on life, the universe, and everthing!
::)

Our government is no longer in the business of governing but in the business of business. 


This is what always amuses me.  The same people who talk about how useless and worthless and corrupt the "Government" is, also want it to take over Health Care, and almost everything else.

Tell me, how is it Government's job to take care of the homeless?  Are they supposed to provide jobs and housing to everybody that is homeless?

Are they supposed to provide jobs and housing to me?  To you?  Not even the Soviet Union did that.

Yeah, you start out with one topic and by post 15, mister so-n-so is giving you his diatribe on life, the universe, and everthing!
::)


Max, here is the big difference between myself and others.

Some people just want to whine and bitch about a problem.  They want to pontificate about things they see wrong, to make themselves feel better.

Myself, I want to do something about it.  I see it as helping nobody if I just bitch about how things should be.  I want to go out and do something to make it better.  And as part of that, I think about real world solutions.  Not simply a list of how things are messed up, and who is to blame for the problem.

So while some people go around "pointing the finger" and saying "It's your fault", I work with people to try and actually solve the problem.  Not just put some kind of "Sugar Coating" on to make myself feel good.

And what I was graphically pointing out was a system that actually works.  I bet you have all heard from "Homeless Advocates", and groups that teach the homless how to "Dumpster Dive" safely.  But nobody ever hears of the groups like US Vets, that actually gives solutions to help people.  This is because US Vets is not in the "Misery Business", they are in the business of actually getting people off of the street.

Or as the Judge in the ANS trial said today, US Vets are not "Enablers".

  Our government is no longer in the business of governing but in the business of business.  That's the core of the problem. 
Wait, you complain that the government is "in the business of business", yet you advocate them doing such "businesslike" things as taking over healthcare, etc.  The problem is the government hasn't been operating as a business.....if any "business" were in debt and full of incompetency like our government is, they'd be OUT OF business......

Max, here is the big difference between myself and others.

Some people just want to whine and bitch about a problem.  They want to pontificate about things they see wrong, to make themselves feel better.

Myself, I want to do something about it.  I see it as helping nobody if I just bitch about how things should be.  I want to go out and do something to make it better.  And as part of that, I think about real world solutions.  Not simply a list of how things are messed up, and who is to blame for the problem.

So while some people go around "pointing the finger" and saying "It's your fault", I work with people to try and actually solve the problem.  Not just put some kind of "Sugar Coating" on to make myself feel good.

And what I was graphically pointing out was a system that actually works.  I bet you have all heard from "Homeless Advocates", and groups that teach the homless how to "Dumpster Dive" safely.  But nobody ever hears of the groups like US Vets, that actually gives solutions to help people.  This is because US Vets is not in the "Misery Business", they are in the business of actually getting people off of the street.

Or as the Judge in the ANS trial said today, US Vets are not "Enablers".
but weren't you the dude saying the only solution to homeless psychotics in the street was to "lock them up" cuz they're paranoid and "how can you help someone who's afraid of you?" and you were all, hey, if someone else has another solution, let's hear it? instead of even trying to think of one yourself? i mean, "lock em up," however verbosely phrased, is not a solution. sounds like what you're saying is, everything's coool the way it is and if homeless people can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps the way i did, heck with em.

sorta like katrina and the first-aid kits, yeah? ;) if they'd just had first-aid kits like you, they'da been all right?

but weren't you the dude saying the only solution to homeless psychotics in the street was to "lock them up" cuz they're paranoid and "how can you help someone who's afraid of you?" and you were all, hey, if someone else has another solution, let's hear it? instead of even trying to think of one yourself? i mean, "lock em up," however verbosely phrased, is not a solution. sounds like what you're saying is, everything's coool the way it is and if homeless people can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps the way i did, heck with em.

sorta like katrina and the first-aid kits, yeah? ;) if they'd just had first-aid kits like you, they'da been all right?


You mentioning Katrina reminded me of this photoshopped picture. Somehow I can imagine him actually doing that.