Today Giuliani said he is pretty much committed to making a bid for the Presidency in 2008. Now, I figured he might run and have given thought to the situation myself.
I'm a big fan of Obama (which may come as a suprise to a lot of you) but If Giuliani were to run, I'd really give serious consideration as to which way my vote would go. (Of course, if the Democrats nominate Clinton, hell, I'd do a write in for Dubyah again, she couldn't run a brothel, never mind a country.)

There's a lot of things to like about Giuliani. First of all, he's harsh on crime. New York City now has a lower crime rate than the national average and just about every other city west of the Mississippi. That say's a lot.
He also speaks some wise words about Illegal Immigration. We can't stop it so we may as well make them legal and tax the snot out of them.
He's Pro-Choice and is a big advocate of stem-cell research, two things that piss off the Christians.. which just elevates him vastly in my esteem.

Then there's the fact that he is a good economist. During his time as Mayor the city of New York wasn't the drain it had been on the state for a long time. Now under Bloomberg, the trend is being reversed.

Oh.. and after our country was attacked in a devastating manner, the current President wandered around the country aimlessly whereas Giuliani came out with fists up and a "Fu.ck You Camel Fu.cks!" attitude.

All in all I think if he could win the Republican nomination he'd give whoever ran on the Democratic ticket a close run for their money. He'd carry far more of the North East than the other Republicans (Including Romney - I don't think he's too popular in Taxachussets now is he?) and I think he'd pick up more support from the centrist voters as well.

What is your opinion on him?

I like Rudy a lot, but he's too socially liberal to carry the red states.  He's pro-abortion, pro-stem cell research and pro-gay rights and no hard-line conservative worth their red tie is going to vote for that.  I love that he's tough on crime and he cleaned up Times Square and I know a lot of native New Yorkers who didn't think he could.  The way he picked NYC up on his shoulders after 9/11 impressed the hell out of me and got me thinking even then, that if he ran for President, I'd vote for him.

If it's a choice between him and "her", even as a Democrat I'd vote for him.  I just don't think he could win.  And that's sad. 

No.

Of course, If I had to choose between Romney and Giuliani, I would go for Giuliani.  I would also pick Giuliani over McCain (because he's a war-mongering Dubya kiss-up).  The only Democrat over whom I would pick Rudy is Lieberman (who is not in the running, thank god). 

The things that put Giuliani at odds with GOP doctrine are just things a sane, reasonable person believes.

No.


.... right... and.. any reasons? Or just because you'd never vote Republican even if your life depended on it?

I like Rudy a lot, but he's too socially liberal to carry the red states.  He's pro-abortion, pro-stem cell research and pro-gay rights and no hard-line conservative worth their red tie is going to vote for that.  I love that he's tough on crime and he cleaned up Times Square and I know a lot of native New Yorkers who didn't think he could.  The way he picked NYC up on his shoulders after 9/11 impressed the hell out of me and got me thinking even then, that if he ran for President, I'd vote for him.

If it's a choice between him and "her", even as a Democrat I'd vote for him.  I just don't think he could win.  And that's sad. 


I wear a red tie and I'd vote for him. You mean the Christian Right wouldn't vote for him. He embraces most of the principals of a real Conservative and also goes over the fence in some areas I agree with.

Why don't you think he could win?

The Christian Right really isn't particularly powerful, they just have a loud whiney voice. Plus, I dare say he'd carry the state of New York and how many electoral college votes is that?

if clinton gets nominated i'll really have to hold my nose but i'll probably end up voting for her. i'm not big on giuliani. (or is it "guiliani"?) i used to like john mccain and i'd say i'd vote for him over clinton but his whole strident pro-war thing is just too much.

if clinton gets nominated i'll really have to hold my nose but i'll probably end up voting for her. i'm not big on giuliani. (or is it "guiliani"?) i used to like john mccain and i'd say i'd vote for him over clinton but his whole strident pro-war thing is just too much.


McCain's gone all Reagan on us (i.e - dementia).

What don't you like about Giuliani?
It seems a lot of people apparently 'don't like him'.. they just don't know why.  ;D

I wear a red tie and I'd vote for him. You mean the Christian Right wouldn't vote for him. He embraces most of the principals of a real Conservative and also goes over the fence in some areas I agree with.

Why don't you think he could win?

The Christian Right really isn't particularly powerful, they just have a loud whiney voice. Plus, I dare say he'd carry the state of New York and how many electoral college votes is that?



He would carry NY over Hilary, I don't disagree with that.  New York is one of the larger states, electoral-vote wise, so it would help him a lot.

Why I don't think he'll win: Hilary would be the first woman to run for President.  People will cream their pants over that and vote for her in droves, I can see it now.  She could have zero platform, be a complete dunce and she'd STILL win because she's a woman.  I ABSOLUTELY DETEST THAT LINE OF THOUGHT.  If she's the best choice, elect her.  If she's not, she better not win.  Like I said, he won't carry the Christian Right and that's a larger force than you think.  It all but re-elected the current Idiot-in-Chief.

What don't you like about Giuliani?
It seems a lot of people apparently 'don't like him'.. they just don't know why.  ;D
actually, pretty much. i reserve the right to say sometimes a dude just rubs me the wrong way. but it makes me nervous how much he seems to relish exercising police powers. this country's got enough problems with that stuff already.

if clinton gets nominated i'll really have to hold my nose but i'll probably end up voting for her. i'm not big on giuliani. (or is it "guiliani"?) i used to like john mccain and i'd say i'd vote for him over clinton but his whole strident pro-war thing is just too much.



I hear ya. I too, used to like McCain but he is very much like Hillary-they both blow with the wind, meaning, if something seems popular, they go with the flow-only to back pedal when it becomes clear that it was the wrong decision. Kerry did the same thing. I think they all are a bunch of opportunists. And yeah, I put Rudy in the same category. What I really don't like about Rudy is the fact that he moved his girlfriend in to his house before his wife left. I know it has nothing to do with his politics but it does say a lot about the man's character-or lack of. So much for family values that the Repubs are always crying about.  ::)



Cat

He would carry NY over Hilary, I don't disagree with that.  New York is one of the larger states, electoral-vote wise, so it would help him a lot.

Why I don't think he'll win: Hilary would be the first woman to run for President.  People will cream their pants over that and vote for her in droves, I can see it now.  She could have zero platform, be a complete dunce and she'd STILL win because she's a woman.  I ABSOLUTELY DETEST THAT LINE OF THOUGHT.  If she's the best choice, elect her.  If she's not, she better not win.  Like I said, he won't carry the Christian Right and that's a larger force than you think.  It all but re-elected the current Idiot-in-Chief.


See, I think the total opposite to that.

I think the Democrats will lose a lot of votes BECAUSE! Hilary is a woman, just like I think they'll lose a lot of votes BECAUSE! Obama is black.
Remember, in the last couple of elections the races have been so tight between 2 white, christian males. Throw something in the mix that gets a few people riled up and that close race can tip.


actually, pretty much. i reserve the right to say sometimes a dude just rubs me the wrong way. but it makes me nervous how much he seems to relish exercising police powers. this country's got enough problems with that stuff already.


Yes, the country does have a problem with the police not having the amount of power they need.  :)



I hear ya. I too, used to like McCain but he is very much like Hillary-they both blow with the wind, meaning, if something seems popular, they go with the flow-only to back pedal when it becomes clear that it was the wrong decision. Kerry did the same thing. I think they all are a bunch of opportunists. And yeah, I put Rudy in the same category. What I really don't like about Rudy is the fact that he moved his girlfriend in to his house before his wife left. I know it has nothing to do with his politics but it does say a lot about the man's character-or lack of. So much for family values that the Repubs are always crying about.  ::)


He's not a family values Republican. One reason the Christian shi.tbags are up in arms about him.
McCain really has started to blow in the wind. He used to stick by his guns, but the past few years he's pretty much wandered from one camp to another.

On the issue of moving his girlfriend in to the house before his wife left.. that's personal. No worse than getting your cock sucked in the oval office.

No to Rudy.  A friend of mine (white) went to a dinner at Gracie Manor and the rumors of his racism are true.  She was livid and left the early.  He refused to go to Arthur Ashe Stadium because it was named after, well, Arthur Ashe, (the line about not wanting to go with a dispute were a ploy) and when The Williams Sisters won the US Open they received calls from The President, New York State Senators and Representatives, The New York Governor.  Seems the only one who didn't have time was Rudy.  No respect, no vote.  The whole thing about moving in the girlfriend didn't sit well.  There are some things I can dismiss, but his kids were living there so it is a bit much, what kind of a guy does that?

Uncle Rudy went bonkers over a portrait of the Virgin Mary on which the artist utilized elephant dung as part of the painting material.  
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/02/dung/

Forget the irony of elephant dung, Giuliani might not be Evangelical Christian right, but he gets enraged about some painting he doesn't like as a Catholic.

Rudy is pro-choice and pro-gun control for New Yorkers.  If he got the nomination, he would kowtow to the GOP leadership.  
Giuliani favors the core GOP principles of tax cuts for the rich, patronage for your friends, high deficits, and Disney.  

New York City did need a mayor in the early '90s to stanch crime in the city, which Rudy did.  Crimes from turnstile-jumping to homicide drop dramatically.  Thumbs up to that!  

The problem with Big G is that he's an authoritarian...friends with fascist creeps such as Bernard Kerik and callously indifferent to violence perpetuated by police.  

Fascists rid the streets of crime and get the trains running on time, but always at a terrible cost to individual liberty.

The GOP is a top-down machine.  As a top-down kind of guy, Giuliani would not remain at odds with the ultra-conservative/Christian fundamentalist factions that have controlled the party since Reagan.  Giuliani would be yet another run-of-the-mill right-winger when they got through with him.  

Of course, Giuliani will not get the nomination.

I'm not a big fan of Hillary, but I have no doubt she would be better for America than Rudy.  I don't know why Murderface makes the assertion Hillary "could not run a brothel," and I don't care either!

I do have the sinking feeling MF is correct that America will not elect a woman or a black for president.  This is a terribly reactionary country.  Even Turkey and India have had women as top dogs.  There are a heck of a lot of folks out there who would never say, "I'm not voting for a black guy," but that's how they'll vote.  Same thing with a woman.  As much as the Right touts Condoleezza Rice as proof they are not racist/sexist, she wouldn't get the GOP nomination for prez...ever.  Hillary might get the Democratic nod, but I think there are plenty of Dems who would vote for Bill, but not Hill.  

We do have something in common, Rudy and I--I don't like ferrets, he doesn't like ferrets:
Dec. 5, 2006 | There is something deranged about you ... this excessive concern with little weasels is a sickness ... you should go consult a psychologist or a psychiatrist with this excessive concern, how you are devoting your life to weasels. You need somebody to help you. There are people in this city and in this world that need a lot of help. Something has gone wrong with you.

-- New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani on his radio show, to a ferret advocate, after imposing New York's 2001 ferret ban

:D


Arthur Ashe Stadium because it was named after, well, Arthur Ashe, (the line about not wanting to go with a dispute were a ploy)

Are you sure it wasn't the AIDS thing?  That gave a lot of people the misconception that Ashe was gay when, in fact, Ashe got AIDS from a blood transfusion. 

Uncle Rudy went bonkers over a portrait of the Virgin Mary on which the artist utilized elephant dung as part of the painting material. 
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/02/dung/

Forget the irony of elephant dung, Giuliani might not be Evangelical Christian right, but he gets enraged about some painting he doesn't like as a Catholic.

Rudy is pro-choice and pro-gun control for New Yorkers.  If he got the nomination, he would kowtow to the GOP leadership. 
Giuliani favors the core GOP principles of tax cuts for the rich, patronage for your friends, high deficits, and Disney. 

New York City did need a mayor in the early '90s to stanch crime in the city, which Rudy did.  Crimes from turnstile-jumping to homicide drop dramatically.  Thumbs up to that! 

The problem with Big G is that he's an authoritarian...friends with fascist creeps such as Bernard Kerik and callously indifferent to violence perpetuated by police. 

Fascists rid the streets of crime and get the trains running on time, but always at a terrible cost to individual liberty.

The GOP is a top-down machine.  As a top-down kind of guy, Giuliani would not remain at odds with the ultra-conservative/Christian fundamentalist factions that have controlled the party since Reagan.  Giuliani would be yet another run-of-the-mill right-winger when they got through with him. 

Of course, Giuliani will not get the nomination.

I'm not a big fan of Hillary, but I have no doubt she would be better for America than Rudy.  I don't know why Murderface makes the assertion Hillary "could not run a brothel," and I don't care either!

I do have the sinking feeling MF is correct that America will not elect a woman or a black for president.  This is a terribly reactionary country.  Even Turkey and India have had women as top dogs.  There are a heck of a lot of folks out there who would never say, "I'm not voting for a black guy," but that's how they'll vote.  Same thing with a woman.  As much as the Right touts Condoleezza Rice as proof they are not racist/sexist, she wouldn't get the GOP nomination for prez...ever.  Hillary might get the Democratic nod, but I think there are plenty of Dems who would vote for Bill, but not Hill. 

We do have something in common, Rudy and I--I don't like ferrets, he doesn't like ferrets:
Dec. 5, 2006 | There is something deranged about you ... this excessive concern with little weasels is a sickness ... you should go consult a psychologist or a psychiatrist with this excessive concern, how you are devoting your life to weasels. You need somebody to help you. There are people in this city and in this world that need a lot of help. Something has gone wrong with you.

-- New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani on his radio show, to a ferret advocate, after imposing New York's 2001 ferret ban

:D


To me, you've just about converted me. I only thought about him before.  ;D

I think we need a far more authoritarian stance on crime. Too long has it gone on that muggers and burglars get off with a slap on the wrist.

I love the ferret quote by the way.

I don't think he'd go down the Christian right path and I'd be disappointed if he did. Of course, I thought McCain wouldn't.. and he pretty much has.

Hilary couldn't run anything. She flip flops. That's all she's ever done and all she ever will do.


No to Rudy.  A friend of mine (white) went to a dinner at Gracie Manor and the rumors of his racism are true.  She was livid and left the early.  He refused to go to Arthur Ashe Stadium because it was named after, well, Arthur Ashe, (the line about not wanting to go with a dispute were a ploy) and when The Williams Sisters won the US Open they received calls from The President, New York State Senators and Representatives, The New York Governor.  Seems the only one who didn't have time was Rudy.  No respect, no vote.  The whole thing about moving in the girlfriend didn't sit well.  There are some things I can dismiss, but his kids were living there so it is a bit much, what kind of a guy does that?


See, I don't know anything about this, but let's be fair, my radar isn't exactly tuned for it.

At this point i believe anyone you guys choose will be a good improvement,well unless Dick Cheney runs :-X

At this point i believe anyone you guys choose will be a good improvement,well unless Dick Cheney runs :-X



I love how non-Americans "get" it.  I know people in this country who don't believe that.  Pitiful.

To me, you've just about converted me. I only thought about him before.  ;D

I think we need a far more authoritarian stance on crime. Too long has it gone on that muggers and burglars get off with a slap on the wrist.

I love the ferret quote by the way.

I don't think he'd go down the Christian right path and I'd be disappointed if he did. Of course, I thought McCain wouldn't.. and he pretty much has.

Hilary couldn't run anything. She flip flops. That's all she's ever done and all she ever will do.

See, I don't know anything about this, but let's be fair, my radar isn't exactly tuned for it.

Hillary doesn't flip-flop so much as she gauges all her decisions on maximum political gain.  The gung-ho for war and Israel right or wrong Hillary is the Hillary I can't stand.  If you listen to right-wing talkers, you'd think she was a female Abbie Hoffman.  After all, she was on the board of that Maoist hippie collective, uh what was it called, "Wal-Mart"?
:D
Limbaugh and the other screwballs found some paper she wrote in grad school that said, in effect, "f**k the police!"  So what.  By the time Bubba was climbing the political ladder, she'd swept that sentiment under the rug.

Hillary was correct about healthcare.  Most Americans in 1993 did want healthcare reform.  The problem is the GOP values only what rich Americans and corporations want.  Money counts more than votes, so "Hillarycare" got strangled slowly.  I watched it happen, it was disgusting.  Hillary was ahead of the curve, though.  Bill Clinton was the most pro-corporate Democrat running in '92.  As you know, Hillary is the same way.  What we see 14 years after the death of "Hillarycare" is American businesses being uncompetitive because they have to shoulder more employee healthcare costs than businesses in countries with socialized healthcare.  Was Hillary on to something?



Back to Rudy--
We all like to see thugs who sell crack to school kids and steal old ladies' purses get thrown in the slammer.  However, guys like Rudy are all cops, no reform.  They don't want to tackle the social overhaul it would take to prevent a society conducive to crime.  You'll always have bad apples in the Big Apple, but less poverty, better schools, and more employment opportunities would lead to fewer bad apples.  The problem is the GOP agenda is staunchly against any of these reforms because they are all bad for short-term corporate profits.

Hillary doesn't flip-flop so much as she gauges all her decisions on maximum political gain.  The gung-ho for war and Israel right or wrong Hillary is the Hillary I can't stand.  If you listen to right-wing talkers, you'd think she was a female Abbie Hoffman.  After all, she was on the board of that Maoist hippie collective, uh what was it called, "Wal-Mart"?
:D
Limbaugh and the other screwballs found some paper she wrote in grad school that said, in effect, "f**k the police!"  So what.  By the time Bubba was climbing the political ladder, she'd swept that sentiment under the rug.

Hillary was correct about healthcare.  Most Americans in 1993 did want healthcare reform.  The problem is the GOP values only what rich Americans and corporations want.  Money counts more than votes, so "Hillarycare" got strangled slowly.  I watched it happen, it was disgusting.  Hillary was ahead of the curve, though.  Bill Clinton was the most pro-corporate Democrat running in '92.  As you know, Hillary is the same way.  What we see 14 years after the death of "Hillarycare" is American businesses being uncompetitive because they have to shoulder more employee healthcare costs than businesses in countries with socialized healthcare.  Was Hillary on to something?



Back to Rudy--
We all like to see thugs who sell crack to school kids and steal old ladies' purses get thrown in the slammer.  However, guys like Rudy are all cops, no reform.  They don't want to tackle the social overhaul it would take to prevent a society conducive to crime.  You'll always have bad apples in the Big Apple, but less poverty, better schools, and more employment opportunities would lead to fewer bad apples.  The problem is the GOP agenda is staunchly against any of these reforms because they are all bad for short-term corporate profits.


Hilary was on to something when it came to Healthcare reform. Something that's being seriously looked at by now by both partys. Primarily for the reasons you state. Large Corporations (who.. without, there'd be no United States) have worked out that 'Hold up, in Norway, they don't pay $X,000 a year for their employees health.'

Anywho - As you know. I'm a punish first, reform later kinda guy. Of course we need to find ways to eliminate the problem at it's base, but the problem will always be there and it's important to have somebody in office who believes in dealing with it properly.

Hilary was on to something when it came to Healthcare reform. Something that's being seriously looked at by now by both partys. Primarily for the reasons you state. Large Corporations (who.. without, there'd be no United States) have worked out that 'Hold up, in Norway, they don't pay $X,000 a year for their employees health.'

Anywho - As you know. I'm a punish first, reform later kinda guy. Of course we need to find ways to eliminate the problem at it's base, but the problem will always be there and it's important to have somebody in office who believes in dealing with it properly.

BTW, we have to free murderers and rapists early because we need their prison cells for pot smokers.  Can't have menacing pot smokers out there running amok and raiding the Mr. Softy truck!  Hooray for mandatory minimums!  Rape a little girl, out in seven years.  Caught selling a pound of Maui Wowie, in for 25-to-life!
:D

BTW, we have to free murderers and rapists early because we need their prison cells for pot smokers.  Can't have menacing pot smokers out there running amok and raiding the Mr. Softy truck!  Hooray for mandatory minimums!  Rape a little girl, out in seven years.  Caught selling a pound of Maui Wowie, in for 25-to-life!
:D


Jeezzuz tap dancing christ. I'm about to agree with you.

To quote -

"I don't think I should be shot, for selling pot, it's just my little way of saying... high."  ;D

I'm all for 30 year minimums for Rapists. If you're caught with a few Lbs on you. Ok you're obviously dealing.. 3 months maybe. If you're caught with an ounce.. phuck it.

this is sorta like the debates i have with mushroom. yup, drug laws are draconian and overblown. the real question is: why? could it be because the drug laws are set up not to reduce drug use or any such, but just as an excuse to control the population?

then again, i've got some hangups about distrusting government. a lot of people seem to operate from the presumption that government is benevolent, and i did for a long time. the 2000 election totally changed my perspective. that was a naked power grab, the term "coup d'etat" springs right to mind.

from where i'm sitting now the powers that be basically just want the regular folks to sit down and shut up while they get more power. truth be told i'm still not sure they didn't have something to do with that planes-flying-into-buildings thing.

so, that said -- i guess another question is whether we're really electing these people or if they just get into office to give the people who fund them access to the levers of power. who funds giuliani? who's paying for clinton's campaign? that might matter more than who these figures are as people.

I think all of the current "choices" suck.

I think all of the current "choices" suck.

What hypothetical choice would not "suck"?

More to the point, with the political power structure as it is, by the time you become a contender, you suck! 

Dennis Kucinich doesn't suck, but he ain't even gonna get out of the starting gate!
::)

What hypothetical choice would not "suck"?

More to the point, with the political power structure as it is, by the time you become a contender, you suck! 

Dennis Kucinich doesn't suck, but he ain't even gonna get out of the starting gate!
::)



Just saying.....none of the potential candidates strike me as anything I would vote for.

  So...

  Have any Republicans declared their intention to run for president in '08 yet..?

 

   So...

   Have any Republicans declared their intention to run for president in '08 yet..?

   

I'm thinking the Bushies will have screwed everything up so badly in the by the '08 primaries, they Republicans will take a fall.  Let Hillary win, sit back and blame her for everything!
::)

i like dennis kucinich. he's the only politician willing to tell the truth about "chemtrails."

back... and to the left.

I'm thinking the Bushies will have screwed everything up so badly in the by the '08 primaries, they Republicans will take a fall.  Let Hillary win, sit back and blame her for everything!
::)



  The GOP could put up a minority female (I wonder who that could be...) as an attempt to woo all the voters they've alienated.  A Hillary candidacy could energize the Republican angry white male base like satan, itself, could not...

  Anyway, Giuliani has a good chance of winning the Democratic nomination.  He's pro-choice, favors gay rights and domestic partner benefits, and was a strong voice for gun control as mayor, all problematic positions in a fundamentally conservative party...

  To all liberty loving gun owners - I suggest booking passage to New Zealand groove ;) on...

  Anyway, Giuliani has a good chance of winning the Democratic nomination. 


A Republican winning the Democratic nomination?  That should be interesting.

A Republican winning the Democratic nomination?  That should be interesting.


  It would be.  Or the other way around...

  Ask Lieberman...

  Watch out for a McCain/Lieberman ticket...

What hypothetical choice would not "suck"?

More to the point, with the political power structure as it is, by the time you become a contender, you suck! 

Dennis Kucinich doesn't suck, but he ain't even gonna get out of the starting gate!
::)


  None can withstand the juggernaut might of Dennis Kucinich..!  Mwahahaa..!

  I don't think anyone can fathom the seriousness of this situation.  We might as well just kick Dubya out right now, and put this charismatic, powerhouse of a man in the Oval Office.  He's unstoppable, I tell you!  He's gonna win over 100% of the electoral college..! 

  Sure, it *sounds* impossible, but not for Kucinich...http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1193336/pray.gif

He would carry NY over Hilary, I don't disagree with that.  New York is one of the larger states, electoral-vote wise, so it would help him a lot.

Don't count on it.
NY loves Hillary.
:-\\

Don't count on it.
NY loves Hillary.
:-\\


Maybe somebody will have to take her out.

I'm serious when I say if there was a worse option than Dubyah.. it would be Hillary. If she was President, I'd be seriously considering investing in a telescopic lens.

Don't count on it.
NY loves Hillary.
:-\\


Perhaps, but not as much as they like Giuliani.



A Hillary candidacy could energize the Republican angry white male base like satan, itself, could not...


You couldn't be more correct.



I'd vote for Giuliani. 

Perhaps, but not as much as they like Giuliani.

You couldn't be more correct.



I'd vote for Giuliani. 



Right.

I find it intersting that the 4 main candidates seem to be a Woman, a Black man, A Catholic Italian and a Mormon.  ;D

Right.

I find it intersting that the 4 main candidates seem to be a Woman, a Black man, A Catholic Italian and a Mormon.  ;D


I hadn't put that together. ;D

I hadn't put that together. ;D


Well, when you consider the field, Giuliani is pretty much the white middle class candidate.

Here's something that upsets me.

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/12/obamas_toughest.php

I can't believe the BS.  On one had I think it would be ridiculous to vote for someone just because they are black, but on the other hand to not vote for him because he isn't "black like me" is ignorant.

Well, when you consider the field, Giuliani is pretty much the white middle class candidate.


Yeah, he would be most like the "typical" president.

Well, when you consider the field, Giuliani is pretty much the white middle class candidate.


I don't know about that.  They may like some of the 9/11 hype, and some of the crime fighting, but the three marriages and the shady family background may not play well a bit inland from the coasts.

I don't know about that.  They may like some of the 9/11 hype, and some of the crime fighting, but the three marriages and the shady family background may not play well a bit inland from the coasts.


Yeah, but the same people who don't like those things will also not like the idea of A) A female President. B) A Black President. C) A Mormon President.

Yeah, but the same people who don't like those things will also not like the idea of A) A female President. B) A Black President. C) A Mormon President.


True, but there are some others putting their hats in the ring, and I think eventually the race will come down to a couple of a couple of white guys who have been around for a long time, even if they have to shoot A-B-C-and Guiliani to get there.

True, but there are some others putting their hats in the ring, and I think eventually the race will come down to a couple of a couple of white guys who have been around for a long time, even if they have to shoot A-B-C-and Guiliani to get there.


;D

I dare say you're probably right.

True, but there are some others putting their hats in the ring, and I think eventually the race will come down to a couple of a couple of white guys who have been around for a long time, even if they have to shoot A-B-C-and Guiliani to get there.



Are you suggesting that they go on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney?  :D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Sorry, couldn't resist.



Cat

Are you suggesting that they go on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney?  :D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Sorry, couldn't resist.



Cat


I'd go for that only if they were playing Dick the Duck!    ;D

Considering his aim, I think Duck the Dick is more appropriate.

Maybe somebody will have to take her out.

I'm serious when I say if there was a worse option than Dubyah.. it would be Hillary. If she was President, I'd be seriously considering investing in a telescopic lens.

Mind your manners there, bub.



  Sure, it *sounds* impossible, but not for Kucinich...http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-6/1193336/pray.gif

Kucinich could never win.  He's a Vegan.  He might as well be a Satanist as far as Joe Sixpack is concerned.
Dennis Kucinich sez:
"Eat yer spinach!"
:P

Mind your manners there, bub.


You're right.. it's pointless to use a long range rifle. The white house has glass several inches thick.

Better stock up on semtex.

You're right.. it's pointless to use a long range rifle. The white house has glass several inches thick.

Better stock up on semtex.

Hey, I got an idea where you can stick that long range rifle!
:D


Considering his aim, I think Duck the Dick is more appropriate.

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_thumright.gif

Hey, I got an idea where you can stick that long range rifle!
:D


In George's face?

Do you think the FBI are interested in me yet?

Can we quit the talk of assassinations?  That sh*t is getting tiresome.  I don't care if she's the best president we'll ever have or the worst......she doesn't deserve to die.  Jesus tapdancing Christ.

Can we quit the talk of assassinations?  That sh*t is getting tiresome.  I don't care if she's the best president we'll ever have or the worst......she doesn't deserve to die.  Jesus tapdancing Christ.


What do you mean "we"?
It's just the one guy, and he calls himself "Murderface."  What can you expect?

What do you mean "we"?
It's just the one guy, and he calls himself "Murderface."  What can you expect?


I maintain my right to threaten the government.

What do you mean "we"?
It's just the one guy, and he calls himself "Murderface."  What can you expect?



I'm aware it's only one person.  I was talking to him. 

I'm aware it's only one person.  I was talking to him. 


Don't worry Beth, I'm not seriously contemplating any sort of assasination attempt at a current, future or former President or Presidential candidate.
It was a dark humor device designed to insinuate just how incapable I think she is.

Plus, you'd be so upset if I went to jail.. you'd lose a key ally in your war against Grammar facism.

Don't worry Beth, I'm not seriously contemplating any sort of assasination attempt at a current, future or former President or Presidential candidate.
It was a dark humor device designed to insinuate just how incapable I think she is.

Plus, you'd be so upset if I went to jail.. you'd lose a key ally in your war against Grammar facism.



Well yes, if you went to jail I would be lost.  I would just.....I couldn't function. 


And I know you aren't seriously going to take shots at her, but I just find joking about it uncomfortable.  'Tis me, I guess. 

Well yes, if you went to jail I would be lost.  I would just.....I couldn't function. 


And I know you aren't seriously going to take shots at her, but I just find joking about it uncomfortable.  'Tis me, I guess. 


Is this all part of your Kennedy love?

Regardless. Sorted now.

No to Rudy.  A friend of mine (white) went to a dinner at Gracie Manor and the rumors of his racism are true.  She was livid and left the early.   He refused to go to Arthur Ashe Stadium because it was named after, well, Arthur Ashe, (the line about not wanting to go with a dispute were a ploy) and when The Williams Sisters won the US Open they received calls from The President, New York State Senators and Representatives, The New York Governor.  Seems the only one who didn't have time was Rudy.  No respect, no vote.  The whole thing about moving in the girlfriend didn't sit well.  There are some things I can dismiss, but his kids were living there so it is a bit much, what kind of a guy does that?


I lived in New York (Queens) all my life, until we moved down to beautiful south Florida!  Rudy Giuliani is a racist.  He has always been in favor of "police brutality" and harassment of minorities.  He was the hero of the landlords and the enemy of the tenants.  He was the friend of Wall Street and the enemy of small business. AND...as far as I saw, Rudy Giuliani really did 'diddlysquat' following the  9/11 attack...except for getting rid of the evidence ASAP...the debris from the WTC towers...I do not know what people think he did that any responsible mayor would not have done.  However, how many mayors of NYC had a secret HQ in the WTC building #7.  Yes...the further you get from NYC the better folks seem to like this despicable bigot.

I lived in New York (Queens) all my life, until we moved down to beautiful south Florida!  Rudy Giuliani is a racist.  He has always been in favor of "police brutality" and harassment of minorities.  He was the hero of the landlords and the enemy of the tenants.  He was the friend of Wall Street and the enemy of small business. AND...as far as I saw, Rudy Giuliani really did 'diddlysquat' following the  9/11 attack...except for getting rid of the evidence ASAP...the debris from the WTC towers...I do not know what people think he did that any responsible mayor would not have done.  However, how many mayors of NYC had a secret HQ in the WTC building #7.  Yes...the further you get from NYC the better folks seem to like this despicable bigot.


Say's who? You.. you're the first one I've heard.

I hardly call reducing the crime rate 'Police Brutality' although I suppose if you want to get mugged be my guest.

Here's a thought for you.

I used to live in St. Louis where you DID NOT! Go downtown after dark... then I went to New York where you could walk around everywhere without that concern. How awful.  ::)

The evidence? Oh please, you're not another one of those 'The government did it' nuts are you? There's a guy here called MaxwellSmart, he's a big fan of that theory, you two should talk.

He had a secret HQ? You mean... an office? What a suprise, the mayor of the city has an office in the main business focal point of the city.

Oh.. and I'd hardly call South Florida beautiful.

Considering his aim, I think Duck the Dick is more appropriate.
Duck the Dick = Hillary Clinton ;D

If Obama wins the Dem bid, he's my man.  Otherwise, I'm thinking Rudy's looking pretty good considering the other options :-\\

Say's who? You.. you're the first one I've heard.

I hardly call reducing the crime rate 'Police Brutality' although I suppose if you want to get mugged be my guest.

Here's a thought for you.

I used to live in St. Louis where you DID NOT! Go downtown after dark... then I went to New York where you could walk around everywhere without that concern. How awful.  ::)

The evidence? Oh please, you're not another one of those 'The government did it' nuts are you? There's a guy here called MaxwellSmart, he's a big fan of that theory, you two should talk.

He had a secret HQ? You mean... an office? What a suprise, the mayor of the city has an office in the main business focal point of the city.

Oh.. and I'd hardly call South Florida beautiful.


I couldn't have said it better!  When I first read that, all I could say was "uh-oh". ;D

And please let me take this chance to put down Florida as I have lived there and disliked almost every moment of it.  The only time Florida is beautiful is when you are standing on the beach looking out at the water.  Just don't turn around...

I couldn't have said it better!  When I first read that, all I could say was "uh-oh". ;D

And please let me take this chance to put down Florida as I have lived there and disliked almost every moment of it.  The only time Florida is beautiful is when you are standing on the beach looking out at the water.  Just don't turn around...


Well, ya know. We live in one of those nice things called a democracy and I'm quite happy for people to not like the candidate I like. However.. gimmie some real reasons.

I tell you what Chrissy.. let's you and me not like Hilary Clinton because in private she burns Indian children with cigarette lighters.  ::)

I tell you what Chrissy.. let's you and me not like Hilary Clinton because in private she burns Indian children with cigarette lighters.  ::)


We're too logical to pull that BS.  We judge people on facts that we observe or have been documented.

Say's who? You.. you're the first one I've heard.

I hardly call reducing the crime rate 'Police Brutality' although I suppose if you want to get mugged be my guest.

Here's a thought for you.

I used to live in St. Louis where you DID NOT! Go downtown after dark... then I went to New York where you could walk around everywhere without that concern. How awful.  ::)

The evidence? Oh please, you're not another one of those 'The government did it' nuts are you? There's a guy here called MaxwellSmart, he's a big fan of that theory, you two should talk.

He had a secret HQ? You mean... an office? What a suprise, the mayor of the city has an office in the main business focal point of the city.

Oh.. and I'd hardly call South Florida beautiful.


St. Louis is pretty in the daytime. I'm not sure about the night, and I don't think I want to test that.

Karma for your post. Conspiracies and hating the government are nice, but once in a while, logic and facts would be fantastic.

facts and hating the government seem to actually go together pretty well.

St. Louis is pretty in the daytime. I'm not sure about the night, and I don't think I want to test that.

Karma for your post. Conspiracies and hating the government are nice, but once in a while, logic and facts would be fantastic.


It is pretty in the daytime.. but at night.. ugh. That kinda thing dosen't normally bother me, but it's a ghost town.. the only people you see, have guns. Seriously.

I'm all about hating the government..but I like to do it with facts. Like "How are we the only country to cut taxes at a time of war.. in the History of Civilisation?"  ;D

Back to Rudy--
We all like to see thugs who sell crack to school kids and steal old ladies' purses get thrown in the slammer.  However, guys like Rudy are all cops, no reform.  They don't want to tackle the social overhaul it would take to prevent a society conducive to crime.  You'll always have bad apples in the Big Apple, but less poverty, better schools, and more employment opportunities would lead to fewer bad apples.  The problem is the GOP agenda is staunchly against any of these reforms because they are all bad for short-term corporate profits.


Couldn't Agree With that more---Not enough PREVENTION--Guys like Guilliani are all about Punishment and nothing to stop others from doing it--aprehension doesn't stop the original problem from happening in the first place--which can ruin a life and punishing afterwards doesn't change that, punishment is part of it, but rehab upon release is paramount or they just end up in prison again--smart on crime is a better approach. . .PREVENTION PREVENTION PREVENTION

Say's who? You.. you're the first one I've heard.

I hardly call reducing the crime rate 'Police Brutality' although I suppose if you want to get mugged be my guest.

Here's a thought for you.

I used to live in St. Louis where you DID NOT! Go downtown after dark... then I went to New York where you could walk around everywhere without that concern. How awful.  ::)

The evidence? Oh please, you're not another one of those 'The government did it' nuts are you? There's a guy here called MaxwellSmart, he's a big fan of that theory, you two should talk.

He had a secret HQ? You mean... an office? What a suprise, the mayor of the city has an office in the main business focal point of the city.

Oh.. and I'd hardly call South Florida beautiful.
  Born and raised in St. Louis, went downtown a lot--Most of St. Louis' crime is in EAST St. Louis---not downtown--I walked the streets in St. Louis in 2001-2002 on an almost nightly basis as a late night-club kid I never got mugged threatend, or even had my car broken into.

  Born and raised in St. Louis, went downtown a lot--Most of St. Louis' crime is in EAST St. Louis---not downtown--I walked the streets in St. Louis in 2001-2002 on an almost nightly basis as a late night-club kid I never got mugged threatend, or even had my car broken into.



That's you.  When I was living in Chicago and attending UIC, I had to walk from the west campus to the east campus; to do so, you had to walk right by the Cabrini Green projects.  I was never attacked or mugged, but plenty of other people were.  That doesn't mean it's a safe place to be.

  Born and raised in St. Louis, went downtown a lot--Most of St. Louis' crime is in EAST St. Louis---not downtown--I walked the streets in St. Louis in 2001-2002 on an almost nightly basis as a late night-club kid I never got mugged threatend, or even had my car broken into.


I never got mugged or threatend or anything either.

But downtown is a ghost town and most of the people down there at night are strapped. What about near the old hospital, the one over the way from Sybergs (Is it still a Sybergs?) .. you gonna walk around there at night?

Which club btw?

Couldn't Agree With that more---Not enough PREVENTION--Guys like Guilliani are all about Punishment and nothing to stop others from doing it--aprehension doesn't stop the original problem from happening in the first place--which can ruin a life and punishing afterwards doesn't change that, punishment is part of it, but rehab upon release is paramount or they just end up in prison again--smart on crime is a better approach. . .PREVENTION PREVENTION PREVENTION


Prevention, prevention, prevention. The left has been preaching this for years.

I agree to a point, there needs to be an alternative, but the fact of the matter is, a large percentage of criminals (especially those involved in drugs and B&E) are habitual criminals. They're never gonna work a 9-5 when they can earn $100,000 a year selling or crack.

Prevention, prevention, prevention. The left has been preaching this for years.

I agree to a point, there needs to be an alternative, but the fact of the matter is, a large percentage of criminals (especially those involved in drugs and B&E) are habitual criminals. They're never gonna work a 9-5 when they can earn $100,000 a year selling or crack.


I have to agree on the financial aspect. . .the drugs as long as they are profitable. . .but I think the DARE programs and things like that are much more effective anyhow. . .the best way to crush that is crush demand because we can build a million prisons, and you'll still never weed out the drugs entirely. . .that or make them like Alcohal which would reduce there value a lot. . .

As for Habitual, that largely depends on the type of crime (DUI offender reoffend at an almost 100% reoffense rate) and then even further in sub crime categories (IE Sex Offenses as a whole have a low reoffense rate--but molestors of Children have a higher reoffense rate than romeo & juliet cases). . .In my opinion the approach on crime is unbalanced right now and that's why it's ineffective. . .this is most clear on Sex Offenders because like the two cases I mentioned before--you have Child Molestors and then you have Flashers--in the same boat. . .I don't know about you--but I don't fear the Romeo & Juliet guy who is now married with two kids or the Flasher, and I'd feel the same way with kids, at the same time, I wouldn't want John Couey down the street from me--just needs to be balanced so we can help focus the police funds on the right crimes. . .they don't do that right now. . .Prevention starts with looking at the crimes themselves, laws like the Sex Offender laws don't do that or we wouldn't have kids on the registry in Delaware for having sex with their friends. . .and using drugs like Crack and Weed would focus more on rehab while the dealers have the big sentences instead. . .just my opinion I appreciate all opinions.

As for St. Louis, I must admit the hospital was not a place I was around.    I hoped around--even in East STL sometimes--I am into dance and 80s, some techno and older hip hop before being ganster/thug was "in".  I looked online--the one I went to was 18 and up on Thursdays, sadly I wasn't 21 even one day in STL--I know it was on Westport.  Down here I tend to go to the Masquerade which is a prodimantly 80s club. . .my fav decade. . .and when I come back I want to see The Formula and Margaritta Mama, I plan on visiting STL again to see my family briefly this summer, if I can save up enough money to afford it that is.  Also, the Central West End which is where I liked to walk, it's a good place for thinking, probably isn't as bad as the Ghost Town area's you are referring to. . .I guess it all depends where in STL--and winning the "Highest Crime Rate" award is only making the criminals there happy as can be. . .ah well.

I have to agree on the financial aspect. . .the drugs as long as they are profitable. . .but I think the DARE programs and things like that are much more effective anyhow. . .the best way to crush that is crush demand because we can build a million prisons, and you'll still never weed out the drugs entirely. . .that or make them like Alcohal which would reduce there value a lot. . .

As for Habitual, that largely depends on the type of crime (DUI offender reoffend at an almost 100% reoffense rate) and then even further in sub crime categories (IE Sex Offenses as a whole have a low reoffense rate--but molestors of Children have a higher reoffense rate than romeo & juliet cases). . .In my opinion the approach on crime is unbalanced right now and that's why it's ineffective. . .this is most clear on Sex Offenders because like the two cases I mentioned before--you have Child Molestors and then you have Flashers--in the same boat. . .I don't know about you--but I don't fear the Romeo & Juliet guy who is now married with two kids or the Flasher, and I'd feel the same way with kids, at the same time, I wouldn't want John Couey down the street from me--just needs to be balanced so we can help focus the police funds on the right crimes. . .they don't do that right now. . .Prevention starts with looking at the crimes themselves, laws like the Sex Offender laws don't do that or we wouldn't have kids on the registry in Delaware for having sex with their friends. . .and using drugs like Crack and Weed would focus more on rehab while the dealers have the big sentences instead. . .just my opinion I appreciate all opinions.

As for St. Louis, I must admit the hospital was not a place I was around.    I hoped around--even in East STL sometimes--I am into dance and 80s, some techno and older hip hop before being ganster/thug was "in".  I looked online--the one I went to was 18 and up on Thursdays, sadly I wasn't 21 even one day in STL--I know it was on Westport.  Down here I tend to go to the Masquerade which is a prodimantly 80s club. . .my fav decade. . .and when I come back I want to see The Formula and Margaritta Mama, I plan on visiting STL again to see my family briefly this summer, if I can save up enough money to afford it that is.  Also, the Central West End which is where I liked to walk, it's a good place for thinking, probably isn't as bad as the Ghost Town area's you are referring to. . .I guess it all depends where in STL--and winning the "Highest Crime Rate" award is only making the criminals there happy as can be. . .ah well.


Yeah dude, I lived the other side of Fo-Pa from CWE. Up in dogtown, all round there is pretty nice.
If you get north downtown and south downtown, down near the Oyster and such, that's the shiits man.

You make valid points. It's important to differentiate between the different offenders. I think in certain circumstances rehab can be beneficial. But as I stated, habitual criminals (and by that, I mean those who repeatedly offend even after going through rehabilitation programs) need to be locked up.

Yeah dude, I lived the other side of Fo-Pa from CWE. Up in dogtown, all round there is pretty nice.
If you get north downtown and south downtown, down near the Oyster and such, that's the shiits man.

You make valid points. It's important to differentiate between the different offenders. I think in certain circumstances rehab can be beneficial. But as I stated, habitual criminals (and by that, I mean those who repeatedly offend even after going through rehabilitation programs) need to be locked up.


Well on that note--I agree with you in prinicipal. . .I still don't like Guilliani because he doesn't do much to differentiate, but on that note right now---crime is a bandwagon and everyone wants to do the "same boat" game. . .so rehab will have to wait  until  a new wind blows in:)  So I'm still undecided come election time. . .for me the financial and education aspects are the most important and right now no candidate has sparked my fancy for those two areas. . .if anything every candidate I've seen has no intention of doing anything positive towards education, and financially we'll be worse off no matter who is in office. . .but one thing would make it very easy for me to decide. . .If McCain is the Republican choice, I don't care who the democrat is--the dems would have my vote.  That guy has literally changed his tune mid speech.  I mean how do you start a show in one stance, and then say something totally different if the question is asked differently?  McCain makes Dubya look like Einstein and balloons on his opinions more than Oprah does on her diet.  Anyhow, very intellectual conversation. . .think I'll check around here more often. . .I like political talk that isn't just about one side insulting the other. . .something that isn't found very often around the net.

Well on that note--I agree with you in prinicipal. . .I still don't like Guilliani because he doesn't do much to differentiate, but on that note right now---crime is a bandwagon and everyone wants to do the "same boat" game. . .so rehab will have to wait  until  a new wind blows in:)  So I'm still undecided come election time. . .for me the financial and education aspects are the most important and right now no candidate has sparked my fancy for those two areas. . .if anything every candidate I've seen has no intention of doing anything positive towards education, and financially we'll be worse off no matter who is in office. . .but one thing would make it very easy for me to decide. . .If McCain is the Republican choice, I don't care who the democrat is--the dems would have my vote.  That guy has literally changed his tune mid speech.  I mean how do you start a show in one stance, and then say something totally different if the question is asked differently?  McCain makes Dubya look like Einstein and balloons on his opinions more than Oprah does on her diet.  Anyhow, very intellectual conversation. . .think I'll check around here more often. . .I like political talk that isn't just about one side insulting the other. . .something that isn't found very often around the net.


Ugh. I hear you on McCain. I was a BIG fan of his and then it was like the Reagan train... I think dementia has kicked in, seriously. It's like his brain has started to melt, soon enough he'll be telling us all we can live side by side with the fish.
Obama is the only person (on either side of the fence) that I've even heard mention education. His main deal is to get kids involved in politics at a young age. That's a fair idea, just make sure they can spell and do Math as well.  ;D

See, I say the same thing about Clinton. If she's the Democratic candidate I'll vote Republican, no matter who it is (barring McCain and what's his name from Kansas). If it's either of them I'll vote Libertarian as a matter of principal.

You know - Apart from being good at making money, I have no idea what Hilary's ideas are? She flip flops more than a fish on dry land.

I think I'll vote for Ted Kennedy.   (putting a match to posters gasoline)  

I think I'll vote for Ted Kennedy.    (putting a match to posters gasoline) 


???

I think I'll vote for Ted Kennedy.    (putting a match to posters gasoline) 



Okay, whatever floats your boat.  :)

Okay, whatever floats your boat.  :)

Ooooh!  Another cheap Chappaquiddick reference!
:P

Ooooh!  Another cheap Chappaquiddick reference!
:P



I wasn't making a reference to anything.

I wasn't making a reference to anything.


Beth, don't you know... you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ted Kennedy, bastion of uber liberal mentality. He's untouchable.. ya know, apart from being a drunk.. being responsible for death.. taking all manner of drugs and driving off all over the place.  ;)

Beth, don't you know... you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ted Kennedy, bastion of uber liberal mentality. He's untouchable.. ya know, apart from being a drunk.. being responsible for death.. taking all manner of drugs and driving off all over the place.  ;)



I have no idea what in the hell you're talking about.  She said she was voting for Ted Kennedy (jokingly) and I said (jokingly), "Whatever floats your boat."  Meaning, "if that's what you want to do, fine." 

I don't know why we're analyzing that post.

I have no idea what in the hell you're talking about.  She said she was voting for Ted Kennedy (jokingly) and I said (jokingly), "Whatever floats your boat."  Meaning, "if that's what you want to do, fine." 

I don't know why we're analyzing that post.


I'm not, I just felt like making fun of Ted Kennedy. It's kind of like sand blasting a dust bunny.

I'm not, I just felt like making fun of Ted Kennedy. It's kind of like sand blasting a dust bunny.



I'm all for making fun of the lush, I just didn't know what the fuss over my post was.  Ah well.

I'm all for making fun of the lush, I just didn't know what the fuss over my post was.  Ah well.


He's like a warm up.. then I go on with a straight jab against somebody like Donald Rumsfeld.. like hows about the billion dollars of defense spending on weapons that can't even find their target.. Clinton gutted the military? Before I land a right hook on Hilary.. something along the lines of she's more confused than scooby doo.

Okay, whatever floats your boat.  :)


  I had to laugh at this...

  Nice... :P
 

Why are people laughing at that?  It's not even remotely close to being funny.

Electrophile, MurderFace--

The difference between being confused and thinking you've got your thoughts in order when you're still merely confused.

If you're going to insult me, just come out with it.  Just PM me with some scathing diatribe and be done with it. 

I have no idea what in the hell you're talking about.  She said she was voting for Ted Kennedy (jokingly) and I said (jokingly), "Whatever floats your boat."  Meaning, "if that's what you want to do, fine." 



No joke

Electrophile, MurderFace--

The difference between being confused and thinking you've got your thoughts in order when you're still merely confused.


Maxwell -

The difference between being confused and thinking you've got your thoughts in order... is when you live in America and can't stop apologising for every socialist dictator the world has ever spawned.

No joke



Well.  I was still joking.

Maxwell -

The difference between being confused and thinking you've got your thoughts in order... is when you live in America and can't stop apologising for every socialist dictator the world has ever spawned.


Depends on how you define "socialist" and how you define "dictator."  I have no compliments for the "socialist dictators" of the former U.S.S.R., for instance.  You probably mean Castro and Chavez.  I try and put the actions of both men into a broader social, economic, and political context.  It's not a question of "apology."  It only appears that way because Castro was so utterly demonized for nearly half a century, you'd think he was the devil incarnate.  Thus, when anybody says, "Well, Castro improved life in Cuba because X,Y,Z," it's like committing sacrilege.  Chavez is getting the same treatment.  

But we're way off topic here...

Depends on how you define "socialist" and how you define "dictator."  I have no compliments for the "socialist dictators" of the former U.S.S.R., for instance.  You probably mean Castro and Chavez.  I try and put the actions of both men into a broader social, economic, and political context.  It's not a question of "apology."  It only appears that way because Castro was so utterly demonized for nearly half a century, you'd think he was the devil incarnate.  Thus, when anybody says, "Well, Castro improved life in Cuba because X,Y,Z," it's like committing sacrilege.  Chavez is getting the same treatment. 

But we're way off topic here...


In a rare moment of socialist sympathy here, I have no major issues with Casto. He's genuinly improved the lot of the Cuban people. Chavez on the other hand just seems hell bent on causing trouble.

In a rare moment of socialist sympathy here, I have no major issues with Casto. He's genuinly improved the lot of the Cuban people. Chavez on the other hand just seems hell bent on causing trouble.


A lot of trouble for.....?
???

A lot of trouble for.....?
???


The rest of the world - The Venezuelan people - Himself.

quote author=MaxwellSmart

"The difference between being confused and thinking you've got your thoughts in order when you're still merely confused."


This is the essential problem with all the neo-fascist Giuliani supporters!  Its- "unleash the cops and crime will diminish."
Giuliani is an evil man...The racist, bigotted brutal cops were just a reflection of their mayor's evil.

A lot of trouble for.....?
???


A lot of trouble for... the wealthy...just as in Cuba before the socialist revolution of 1959.  Chavez is very much the "people's president."

What hypothetical choice would not "suck"?

More to the point, with the political power structure as it is, by the time you become a contender, you suck! 

Dennis Kucinich doesn't suck, but he ain't even gonna get out of the starting gate!
::)


You're right, Kucinich doesn't stand a chance.

You're right, Kucinich doesn't stand a chance.


  Bump the Dem base a little to the left, please...

  Right now, both doors have golden knobs, and that bothers me.  The two-party system yields results that are not significantly different.  So, I say, we chip away at the system...

  Familiarize yourself with Mr. Kucinich and find out where he stands on the issues groove ;) on...

I'm not a Democrate, and I'm Canadian.

I just have a feeling that he may not win, that's all.

I'm not a Democrate, and I'm Canadian.

I just have a feeling that he may not win, that's all.


   Oh, you're Canadian...

   Sorry 'bout that, Mr. McBain...

  Duh, says Canadian under yer avatar... :-[

The closetest we have have to the democrats, is the NDP.  Which I voted for, fot the last three elections.

But mostly I'm on the fence, since none of the three parties, really appeall to me.

You're forgive, Davester.

quote author=MaxwellSmart

"The difference between being confused and thinking you've got your thoughts in order when you're still merely confused."


This is the essential problem with all the neo-fascist Giuliani supporters!  Its- "unleash the cops and crime will diminish."
Giuliani is an evil man...The racist, bigotted brutal cops were just a reflection of their mayor's evil.


Well hell, I'd rather be a neo-fascist Giuliani supporter than a freakin 'Give peace a chance' release the murders leftie so far past Chavzes he's face to face with Stalin.

Oh yeah.. if you let the cops do their job.. err, crime will diminish.

Romney will end up taking the whole manicotti,

Romney will end up taking the whole manicotti,


Can't say I'm a big fan of Romney.

He's got Jim Talent, money maker extrodinaire on his team though.

 
   Right now, both doors have golden knobs, and that bothers me. 

Speak not of "golden knobs" at this moment.  You make me pine for Anna Nicole!
:-\\




This is the essential problem with all the neo-fascist Giuliani supporters!  Its- "unleash the cops and crime will diminish."
Giuliani is an evil man...The racist, bigotted brutal cops were just a reflection of their mayor's evil.

Giuliani isn't evil in the same way that Dick Cheney is evil...but Rudy's evilness shall be commensurate with his power!  Crime did ineed go down under Giuliani...but Rudy and the Republicans do not address the social causes of crime.  One without the other will lead to a terrifying police state.


A lot of trouble for... the wealthy...just as in Cuba before the socialist revolution of 1959.  Chavez is very much the "people's president."

I do like Chavez, though I wouldn't sanctify him.  As an American, I wish Venezuela had American-style democracy.  I also wish America had American-style democracy! 
::)


Well hell, I'd rather be a neo-fascist Giuliani supporter than a freakin 'Give peace a chance' release the murders leftie so far past Chavzes he's face to face with Stalin.


Davey, you're a stitch!  Self-parody is a fine thing!
;D


Romney will end up taking the whole manicotti,

Think so?  Yuck-o!  One of Mitt's problems is he's a total stiff.  He's got this grim countenance, like Bob Dole.  That tends to turn folks off.  Just talking strictly personality, Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton could sell you a '75 Ford Pinto with no wheels and make you feel happy you bought it!  The only candidate I see with anything approaching that kind of salesmanship is John Edwards.


Can't say I'm a big fan of Romney.

He's got Jim Talent, money maker extrodinaire on his team though.

You can't say?  I'm from Massassachusetts!  I was so grossed out on Election night '02, I could hardly drive home!  Jim Talent might be a big help, so long as he manages to stay on the right side of the prison walls!

Speak not of "golden knobs" at this moment.  You make me pine for Anna Nicole!



  Easy does it, Max... :D

  Not to speak ill of the dead, but I never thought she was all that and a bag of chips...

You can't say?  I'm from Massassachusetts!  I was so grossed out on Election night '02, I could hardly drive home!  Jim Talent might be a big help, so long as he manages to stay on the right side of the prison walls!


Talent will earn him a lot of money. He's only a step behind Hilary in the money making ability area.
I can't see Romney mounting a serious push for the presidency though.

   Easy does it, Max... :D

   Not to speak ill of the dead, but I never thought she was all that and a bag of chips...

Yeah, but I betcha couldn't eat just one...
Ohhhh....that's bad!
:-X

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070303/ts_alt_afp/usvote2008republicans

The sensible citizens have spoken.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070303/ts_alt_afp/usvote2008republicans

The sensible citizens have spoken.


What's interesting here.. is they say 'most members of the party are unaware of..' X, Y and Z.

That's a total fallacy.. most of my friends are of a Conservative nature and the majority are Republicans. We all know what Giuliani's stances are.. and still support him because we're sick of the Republican party being controlled by reactionary christian militants.

Not only that, but I support many of his moderate stances. Nowhere does it say that being a Republican means one must be archaic. The main priority of any Republican President is economic stability - Another reason I make to point out that George W. Bush is not a Republican.. he's just a podunk christian conservative.

Here, my friends, is a commentary by a columnist for the Washington Post that is worth reading.
BTW...Calvin Butts actually supported Ruth Messinger not Giuliani.

Hizzoner the Curmudgeon

By Jonathan Capehart
Tuesday, March 6, 2007; A19



Forget about whether Rudy Giuliani is too moderate to win over the conservatives who dominate the nomination process in the Republican Party. The real story is whether the opera buff's nascent presidential bid will be crushed under the weight of the Pucciniesque life of the 107th mayor of New York.

We all know about the first wife who was his second cousin, the second wife who found out she was being divorced while watching television and the third wife who was barred by court order from the mayor's residence or from meeting Giuliani's children, Andrew and Caroline, there before the divorce was final.

Now come the public comments from Andrew that he won't be stumping for pops in Iowa, New Hampshire or anywhere else. Not only did he say "I have problems with my father," but he also added, "There's obviously a little problem that exists between me and his wife."

If past is prologue, the younger Giuliani's phone must have crackled with Rudy rage once his comments came to light. See, when Giuliani was mayor, he brooked no criticism -- no matter how minor, no matter how constructive. Having been on the receiving end of one of Giuliani's withering verbal assaults, I know of what I speak.

The phone rang around 9 a.m. on Jan. 7, 1999. It was Giuliani's personal assistant, Beth Patrone. "Please hold for the mayor." He had never called me before. His skin-peeling tirades against reporters, politicians, community leaders, perceived enemies and those deemed too weak to fight City Hall were legendary. Now it was my turn.

Giuliani was spitting fire over my column in that morning's New York Daily News, in which I likened his second term to the sitcom "Seinfeld." The thesis was summed up in the first paragraph: "The show has been reincarnated as Mayor Giuliani's second term, which has turned into a term about nothing."

"Jonathan," he said.

"Good morning, Mr. Mayor," I said, "How . . ."

For the next 10 minutes, Giuliani ripped me apart, calling my column "intellectually dishonest," among other things. He hung up when he couldn't find a favorable editorial that I'd written on his State of the City speech the previous year. But he called back, spouting off the headline and launching into another 10-minute monologue.

His press secretary, Sunny Mindel, called me afterward. "Consider yourself flattered," she said. "You're important enough to warrant a phone call. You got under his skin." I knew that I had accomplished no great feat. The mayor's skin is as thin as America's Next Top Model.

People disagreed with me all the time. I encouraged discussion and accepted that others had different viewpoints. But Giuliani's reaction was over the top. I tell this story because it points to other aspects of hizzoner's personality that were more troublesome.

Giuliani could be vindictive. He had no qualms about using government to settle a score. When the City Council overrode his veto of a bill to change the operations of homeless shelters in December 1998, Giuliani sought to evict five community service programs, including one that served 500 mentally ill people, in the district of the bill's chief sponsor, and to replace them with a homeless shelter.

What's more, he released a list of sites for other shelters that would be housed in the districts of council members who voted in favor of the override. (He backed down two months later, after much public outrage.)

Rather than take the high road earlier that year, Giuliani erupted when the Rev. Calvin O. Butts, a prominent Harlem minister who had endorsed Giuliani for reelection, said, "I don't believe he likes black people." In fact, Giuliani put a lockdown on city funding for projects affiliated with the politically connected cleric.

But it was his reaction to racially charged incidents involving the police that highlighted Giuliani's other affliction: tone-deafness.

Amadou Diallo was reaching for his wallet when undercover police officers gunned him down in a hail of 41 bullets in the vestibule of his apartment building in 1999. New Yorkers of all colors and political stripes trouped to police headquarters to be arrested in protest of not only the officers' actions but also of Giuliani's inability to grasp why everyone was appalled by what happened.

The visionary mayor who brought law and order to the ungovernable city and who became the face of a bloodied but unbowed nation on Sept. 11, 2001, was a difficult mayor. Many wonder whether the trauma of that day has mellowed Giuliani. We'll soon know. There's nothing like the stress of a presidential campaign to find out for sure.

The writer is a member of the editorial page staff. His e-mail address iscapehartj@washpost.com.