I was just reading a thread bout a list of people who a commentator listed as...what was it?...harmful to America.  I think Maxwell Smart mentioned that Senator Bernie Sanders (I,VT) was, in fact, a SOCIALIST.
This got me thinking about how American society has been conditioned to believe...or at least, to accept as fact, certain ideas about political philosophy and the causes behind historical events.

I just became eligible for Medicare, so I've seen a few political boogeymen become almost acceptable by American society.  The major threat to America from the late 40's through the Korean War, through the 60's and VietNam and then, perhaps, ending with the break-up of the Soviet Empire was COMMUNISM. 

Having studied and taught History, my ideas about the mainstream political philosophy of America evolved to the point where I recognized what I believe to be many political philosophies that have been substantially misunderstood by the mainstream  population of this country.

My personal political philosophy is very similar to that of Howard Zinn and Dennis Kucenich.

I guess what prompted me to write this post was the difficulty Americans still have with labeling someone a Socialist...or a Communist.  It seems that Americans also shy away from anyone who suggests that Capitalism may be an evil system.  Anyway...does anyone object to the conditioning foisted upon the American population by the capitalist/corporatist elites? Or maybe you don't think there was any conditioning?

That's why I try not to pay attention to labels.  I live in a largely Republican town/county, and I would probably be labeled as such by someone who didn't know me although my beliefs are often diametrically opposed to those of my neighbors.

I oppose conditioning being foisted upon ANYONE.  I think they should be entitled to form their own opinions.

My personal political philosophy is very similar to that of Howard Zinn and Dennis Kucenich.



Howard Zinn, Dennis Kucinich, George Orwell...
You and I will get a long quite well!
:)

Terrorism has supplanted communism in the corporate propaganda mill.  The conditioning is none to subtle.  Americans are once again being trained to fear "the other" so they won't question the state.  It's all about fear and daddy.  Oganized religion is just the front office for fascism.   

I don't suggest capitalism is an "evil" system.  Greed is what's evil.  Capitalism unbridled creates its own undoing.  Without that dreaded "government regulation," capital filters into fewer and fewer hands until we have a plutocracy loyal to nothing but furthering its own wealth and power.  That's what is happening in our country, and it does not stop even as it destroys the United Stats of America.  The plutocrats don't need a country.  They can set up anywhere on the globe. 

Ronald Reagan told us we would be a stronger and richer nation if we unleashed the "magic of the marketplace." 
"Government isn't part of the problem, government is the problem," said Reagan.
A classic Whig philosophy on the surface, but that's not what Reagan had in mind.  Government got turned against the people and put to work advancing the interests of the super-rich above all else.

Today we have a lower standard of living and a less competitive economy than we did 40 years ago.  Instead of being the biggest lender nation, we are the biggest debtor nation.  Bush & co. are lauging all the way to the World Bank, and we're left holding the bag!
::)

I guess what prompted me to write this post was the difficulty Americans still have with labeling someone a Socialist...or a Communist.   It seems that Americans also shy away from anyone who suggests that Capitalism may be an evil system.   Anyway...does anyone object to the conditioning foisted upon the American population by the capitalist/corporatist elites? Or maybe you don't think there was any conditioning?


To me, political beliefs for the most part are amoral.  The problem comes in how they are carried out.

In theory, Communism and Socialism are both good systems.  But sadly, they can really only wook in a Utopian type society, where every member of the community is willing to put in "their fair share".  Things may work well in small numbers, but it does not work when scaled up to a larger system (like a National government).  Soon, corruption, sloth, lust for power, and greed step in.

The same is true of Capitolism.  When done right, Capitolism is a stable and well balanced system.  The problems start when the "Capitolists" go beyond reasonable profits, and move into exploitation.  In the long term, this is self-correcting because such companies rarely last for very long.  But short term, it can be devistating to the workforce and economy.

Myself, I think a blend of several systems is the best.

Myself, I think a blend of several systems is the best.


I agree, but the question is what Americans are conditioned to believe and who does the conditioning.

I agree, but the question is what Americans are conditioned to believe and who does the conditioning.


That sounds really bigoted Max.  I am an "American", and if anything, would not my "normal political inclinations" drive me into some kind of Goldwaterian rant about the very idea about Communism & Socialism?  Yet as I frequently have in the past, I calmly say that there are good things from the system, and have frequently suggested parts that should be used.

I think you are letting your prejudices get in the way of your thinking.  You have an assumption of what most people believe, and nothing will change your mind when it comes to it.

I think you would find that the majority of American's do not want to see "Socialized Medicine".  But at the same time, they also want to see a "safety net" for themselves and others that need it.  Nobody wants to pay for 3rd generation Welfare bums, but they want the comfort of knowing that if things went totally balls-up for them, the Government will step in and at least try to take care of them.

It always amazes me how skewed notions people have of "the other party".  A lot of Right Wingers see Left Wingers as little more then "Communists in Sheep's Clothing".  A lot of Left Wingers see Right Wingers as a bunch of bigots who want to exploit everybody they can get their hands on and then toss them in the sewer so they are out of sight.

Then people moan and wonder why nothing ever gets done.

That sounds really bigoted Max.  I am an "American", and if anything, would not my "normal political inclinations" drive me into some kind of Goldwaterian rant about the very idea about Communism & Socialism?  Yet as I frequently have in the past, I calmly say that there are good things from the system, and have frequently suggested parts that should be used.

I think you are letting your prejudices get in the way of your thinking.  You have an assumption of what most people believe, and nothing will change your mind when it comes to it.

I think you would find that the majority of American's do not want to see "Socialized Medicine".  But at the same time, they also want to see a "safety net" for themselves and others that need it.  Nobody wants to pay for 3rd generation Welfare bums, but they want the comfort of knowing that if things went totally balls-up for them, the Government will step in and at least try to take care of them.

It always amazes me how skewed notions people have of "the other party".  A lot of Right Wingers see Left Wingers as little more then "Communists in Sheep's Clothing".  A lot of Left Wingers see Right Wingers as a bunch of bigots who want to exploit everybody they can get their hands on and then toss them in the sewer so they are out of sight.

Then people moan and wonder why nothing ever gets done.
It's posts like this that make me wish I could give more than 1 Karma/day O0

That sounds really bigoted Max.  I am an "American", and if anything, would not my "normal political inclinations" drive me into some kind of Goldwaterian rant about the very idea about Communism & Socialism?  Yet as I frequently have in the past, I calmly say that there are good things from the system, and have frequently suggested parts that should be used.

I think you are letting your prejudices get in the way of your thinking.  You have an assumption of what most people believe, and nothing will change your mind when it comes to it.

I think you would find that the majority of American's do not want to see "Socialized Medicine".  But at the same time, they also want to see a "safety net" for themselves and others that need it.  Nobody wants to pay for 3rd generation Welfare bums, but they want the comfort of knowing that if things went totally balls-up for them, the Government will step in and at least try to take care of them.

It always amazes me how skewed notions people have of "the other party".  A lot of Right Wingers see Left Wingers as little more then "Communists in Sheep's Clothing".  A lot of Left Wingers see Right Wingers as a bunch of bigots who want to exploit everybody they can get their hands on and then toss them in the sewer so they are out of sight.

Then people moan and wonder why nothing ever gets done.

Harsh words, but some truth there.  I do have some prejudice against "right-wingers" and "corporate" types.  One might also get the impression I paint people with to broad a brush.  Maybe sometimes I do.  Sometimes I use hyperbole and sarcasm in a way certain board members don't get.

"Bigoted" is another discussion.  Who is bigoted and what it means to be bigoted and whether I myself am bigoted is a more difficult matter.  There are certain members of this board who are not mature enough to handle such a touchy subject (not you, Mushroom). 

Indeed, if you call it "socialized medicine," you bring socialism into the terminology.  The education system that taught me was adamantly anti-socialist/anti-communist, and did not pretend to be anything else.  The media still uses "socialism" as a pejorative.  Most Americans do believe the government should provide a safety net so people do not starve and do not end up on the street.  I have heard the right-wing media push the argument that it's impossible to go hungry and homeless in this country unless you're a f**k-up, and then you deserve it!

Bill O'Reilly, for instance, declared the victims of Hurricane Katrina had it coming because they didn't stay in school and learn money-making job skills.  In the same rant, he warned "you" that if you don't stay in school, if you don't learn a set of marketable skill, you might end up on a proverbial roof with no way out, like the victims of Katrina. 

I have watched the Right do everything in its power to undermine the social safety net in this country.  That's what so-called "welfare reform" did.  They tried to do the same to Social Security, but that program is too big and too successful, so the sales pitch didn't work. 

Right-wing pollsters and think-tank scholars know if Americans got a taste of real "socialized medicine," they wouldn't want to give it up, just like they didn't want to give up Social Security.

Everybody has at least one loved one who benefits from Social Security.  People know there parents and grandparents are good people who did their best to provide for their families.  They know Social Security recipients are not lazy bums.  The number of people receiving AFDC (so-called "Welfare") was miniscule compared to the number of people receiving Social Security.  AFDC drew much sharper class distinctions.  If you lived in a tony suburb, chances are you did not know anybody who received AFDC benefits.  There was even a good chance you didn't know anybody who knew anybody who received AFDC.  Thus, politicians and pundits had an easy time of demonizing not just welfare, but welfare recipients.  The same opinion-shapers also used racial stereotypes in re welfare, which were maliciously false.

When one thought of a "welfare recipient," the instant image was of an unmarried Black woman living in a city tenement with illegitimate children. Many were just such cases, but this sent an inaccurate message.   In reality, four out of five women receiving welfare benefits were White, and were just as likely to live in the suburbs or rural areas as the city.

There was also the stereotype of 'third generation" welfare recipients.  Can't say they weren't out there.  In reality, however, most welfare recipients were on the rolls for a few months to at most a few years.

And yet, the misconceptions ruled all debate on the subject.

That's conditioning.

Right-wing pollsters and think-tank scholars know if Americans got a taste of real "socialized medicine," they wouldn't want to give it up, just like they didn't want to give up Social Security.


But I have tasted "Socialized Medicine", and I want nothing to do with it.

And how do you explain the large numbers of clinics on the US side of the US-Canada Border?  Offering everything from eyeglasses to Dental work (and more)?  And the clinics that do the same thing along the Vancouver side of the Oregon-Washington border?

But I have tasted "Socialized Medicine", and I want nothing to do with it.

And how do you explain the large numbers of clinics on the US side of the US-Canada Border?  Offering everything from eyeglasses to Dental work (and more)?  And the clinics that do the same thing along the Vancouver side of the Oregon-Washington border?

And Americans going to Canada for prescription drugs.  There are clearly advantages and drawbacks to both systems.  America has more people without any health insurance at all than the total population of Canada. 

Not all "socialized medicine" is administered well, as you saw with the VA.  We need a better model--

Nobody likes to admit they're wrong.  America has a pride problem.  We've spent so long bashing other countries that if we admit other countries do anything better, we'll have to eat our words.  Untold numbers of our own citizens get sick and die every year because America, with it's right-of-center bragging rights, cannot admit other countries have more effective healthcare systems that better serve the population at large than we have.

Re: Socialized Medicine in Quebec
I was married to a Montreal lady for almost 25 years. In that time I made at least two or three trips up to Montreal and other areas of Quebec every years.  During those years we'd make most of the trips with our three kids.  There were a multitude of instances where I saw Quebec Medicare in action...and there is absolutely no question in my mind that this is the only way a state or provincial medical plan should be run.  It is kind of medical-care  system that we will have here in the states...eventually. 

People talk about long waits for specialized surgical or medical care.  Well...my ex mother-in-law needed a hip replacement.  When she finally built up the courage to "go for it" and put her name on the list...she had a 5 month wait...had the replacement, and she was...as the saying goes...a new woman!  This was in Montreal.  I understand that the areas outside the major cities have even shorter waiting periods.

In the U.S. we already have a 'Medicare" system in place for the seniors which works beautifully...although the Right-Wingers would have you think otherwise.  Medicare, despite the substantial amount of fraudulent claims by the greedy medical practitioners and the corrupt pharmaceutical conglomerates, has never lost money.  In fact, it is one of the few government programs that has been financially successful. 
The "Medicare" umbrella of medical care could easily be expanded to cover everyone in the U.S...and with some "responsible" economic policy (like reducing the bloated and unnecessary defense budget by a significant amount) the entire Medicare system could be easily paid for by the government.

Waited 5 months for a hip replacement?
In America, you don't have to wait at all....if you can afford it. 
If you can't afford it, then f**k you!  Hobble off and die in pain.  You should have made the choice to get rich like all upstanding Americans do (the "5%" Rush Limbaugh says are "pulling the wagon," as opposed to the "95%" who are "riding in it").  Anyway, why don't you ask your kids for the money?  Oh, they're not rich either.  How many times do you idiots have to get explained to...
:D

I failed to mention the real "villain" in the American medical mess...THE INSURANCE COMPANIES.
Why do these companies hate Medicare and particularly the socialized medical systems of the world...Because they refuse to accept the truth that medical care should not be a "profit making" enterprise.

I failed to mention the real "villain" in the American medical mess...THE INSURANCE COMPANIES.
Why do these companies hate Medicare and particularly the socialized medical systems of the world...Because they refuse to accept the truth that medical care should not be a "profit making" enterprise.

INSURANCE and PHARMACEUTICAL companies make out like bandits in the country.  The rest of the medical world runs in the red (npi).

I think Maxwell Smart mentioned that Senator Bernie Sanders (I,VT) was, in fact, a SOCIALIST.


LOL. I remember the anti-Bernie Sanders ads before the elections. Most Quebeckers have access to Vermont stations out of Burlington and omg they were funny. We actually would joke about them at the University. It would show photos of Bernie on his worst day, hair all disheveled and whatnot... the voice-over saying "What's happened to Bernie? He's gone down-hill." or "Bernie Sanders obviously doesn't care about what happens to children" or something stupid like that.

I'm glad he won.

LOL. I remember the anti-Bernie Sanders ads before the elections. Most Quebeckers have access to Vermont stations out of Burlington and omg they were funny. We actually would joke about them at the University. It would show photos of Bernie on his worst day, hair all disheveled and whatnot... the voice-over saying "What's happened to Bernie? He's gone down-hill." or "Bernie Sanders obviously doesn't care about what happens to children" or something stupid like that.

I'm glad he won.



Bernie ALWAYS has a bad hair day.  ;D ;D ;D  Anyway, Rich Tarrent (who ran against Bernie) pay boo-coo bucks of his own money to smear Bernie and it really paid off. He lost the race by a 2-1 margin.



Cat

Don't forget the Air Conditioning of America!
http://www.lohrmanhvac.com/_images/image_AS2_Home.jpg

BTW, that led to the conditioning of America because as you could air condition absolutely everything mankind ever put together, so many more people started taking their money and their politics elsewhere!  Thus the "southerning" of America in '70s and '80s.  Yes, yes my friend from the values Florida swamp to the kinda cash that comes from Las Vegas, these more southerly climes informed our politics differently!
:o
You can vote Reagan if you want to, just don't say I didn't warn you, kiddo!

The great fault with American society is that the primary concern is the acquisition of the material.
The philosophy that I believe in is simple..."people are more important than things."
I favor a social-democratic system, such as exists in Canada, Scandinavia...