OK, devil's advocate time again.

The infrastructure of the Iraqi Oil industry is in shambles.  They are at less then 20% of their production and refining capabilities of what they were 15 years ago.  Most estimates I have seen state that it will take an estimated $200 billion to bring just the well and pipeline infastructure up to 1988 standards.

And that does not count the cost of refineries, tankers (the tankers that Iraq had were all either sold during the UN Oil Freeze, or have deteriorated to the point that they are unsafe).  I have seen estimates as high as $650 billion in order to bring all of it's drilling, shipping, and refining capabilities up to modern standards.

Now where is Iraq going to get that kind of money?  Not to mention the training and experienced people to do the work?

This is actually a fairly common practice when new resources are discovered in a poor country.  In exchange for creating the infrastructure, a company (or companies) get's an exclusive contract for a set period of time.  Then once that time expires, the resources (and all infrastructure put in place) revert back to the host country.

Iraq is suffering from crippling unemployment.  And the nation simply does not have the money, credit, or equipment to fully open it's oil fields without help from somewhere.  And I do not see anybody opening their wallets and offering over half a trillion dollars to let them get it going again.  This will be a huge boost to jump-starting their economy.  And along with that would probably be a big shot in the arm for National Pride.

I do not care much for it either.  But unless some rich benefator offers up money in the form of grants and loans, there is really no other option.  And if this happens, by 2040, Iraq will be fully in control of it's oil fields again, and have a huge number of experienced personel to run it.

Not to mention modern equipment.  Saddam let the equipment fall to crap during his reign.  Most of the wells, pipelines, and refineries they do have date back to the 1960's.  This is because once Iraq nationalized them in 1972, very little money was ever put back into them.  Foreign companies were not interested in giving Iraq charity, and the Ba'ath party was more interested in buying tanks and palaces.  And of course there was no reason to put any money in them during the 1990's, since there was a UN Embargo in place.

Like it, hate it, it really does not matter.  Does anybody have a realistic solution for Iraq to follow?  They have no credit, huge debts, and almost no cash flow.  Unless something is done to fix that problem soon, things will only get worse.

This is excellent.

Here's a point for ya'll.

In Texas, over a million wells have been dug and almost all the oil is gone.
In Iraq, a bit bigger than Texas with supposedly waaaay more oil. The number of wells dug is still in the 10's of thousands.. with infeior technology.

Answer - Inject Western Technology and investment $'s. Under a profit share scheme such as the one being implemented the Iraqi's will be much better off. Instead of digging a ditch here, there or anywhere the resources of their country will be put to good use and they'll make considerably more money.
Plus, the way these things usually work is the top jobs are held by people the compaines bring in, the rest of the facilities will be manned by Iraqi's.. is that a job I hear?

I haven't studied this enough to form a complete opinion, but it seems that creating jobs would be a good thing there in Iraq for one thing..since unemployment seems to be a major factor at this time.....and since the country has such a poor economy at this point....

And, would't this kind of side step OPEC in some way??  I can't see how that would be a bad thing at all. I read the linked article and didn't see OPEC mentioned....

If it were Western companies giving their time/technology for a reasonable wage, that would be acceptable; as it is, Iraqi oil tech is largely missing or out of date because of the West's actions (both before the war from sanctions and caused by the war)... for Western oil companies to do, in effect, what happened with Russian gas - the government taking all the risk, the oil companies taking nearly all the profits, is adding insult to injury.

Sure, it could be that the oil companies will expect a reasonable return on investment and no more, with the huge revenues going to help the people of Iraq.  But history doesn't make that a particularly probable outcome.

Your quote of $600billion seems excessive: do you have a source for that?


Like it, hate it, it really does not matter.  Does anybody have a realistic solution for Iraq to follow?  They have no credit, huge debts, and almost no cash flow.  Unless something is done to fix that problem soon, things will only get worse.

Are we talking a realistic solution for Iraq, or a way for Bush-friendly companies to make megabucks?

And there ain't no way any oil company is going to be doing anything whatsoever (other than being paid hansomely for doing nothing) while the security situation remains as it is.


it's drilling
...
get's an

grr...


manned by Iraqi's.. is that a job I hear?

grrrrr...
(and yes, jobs for Iraqis is a good thing, but an awful lot depends on pay scales and how much of the profit is creamed off by the oil companies)

grrrrr...
(and yes, jobs for Iraqis is a good thing, but an awful lot depends on pay scales and how much of the profit is creamed off by the oil companies)


Yeah, I know what you're saying. Fact of the matter is this -
You're an Iraqi, you have no job.  :(
You're an Iraqi, you have a job.  :)

We all know they're not going to get anything like the same wage as an American or European doing the same job.. but they're going to get a wage.

Are we talking a realistic solution for Iraq, or a way for Bush-friendly companies to make megabucks?


That's the one, mate!
Sounds to me like Mushroom could write press releases for Haliburton!

Yeah, I know what you're saying. Fact of the matter is this -
You're an Iraqi, you have no job.  :(
You're an Iraqi, you have a job.  :)

So would you rather work for a foreigner who's scamming off the only wealth your country has, or not have a job?  It's a false dichotomy: to say that the only way to get a few thousand Iraqi jobs is to pass its oil profits on to Western companies is frankly ridiculous.

So would you rather work for a foreigner who's scamming off the only wealth your country has, or not have a job?  It's a false dichotomy: to say that the only way to get a few thousand Iraqi jobs is to pass its oil profits on to Western companies is frankly ridiculous.


It's not the only way.

But it's the way it will happen. Let's face it, we're not running a charity here.

It's not the only way.

But it's the way it will happen. Let's face it, we're not running a charity here.

Isn't that a line from a Jerry Lewis movie?
:P

Isn't that a line from a Jerry Lewis movie?
:P


Nah, I don't know Deano.

So would you rather work for a foreigner who's scamming off the only wealth your country has, or not have a job?  It's a false dichotomy: to say that the only way to get a few thousand Iraqi jobs is to pass its oil profits on to Western companies is frankly ridiculous.
Let's see, feed my family or scrounge for food?  I'll take "Feed my family for $200, Alex".  I hear a lot of "this is stupid, ridiculous, exploitation, etc. etc. etc" but no other solutions.

Does anyone know what the "share" mentioned is?  People don't honestly believe the oil companies will put time & $$ into updating the equipment and not get anything out of it, do they?

Hey...even if the average Iraqi once this starts makes 300 a week, it's probably 300 a week more than he's making now...

Maybe those who want to squawk about "Western Oil Companies" making this committment would rather see, lets say China, or Russia getting in on the ground floor there??  That oughta help US demand for secure oil supplies for a looooong time....right??

Hey...even if the average Iraqi once this starts makes 300 a week, it's probably 300 a week more than he's making now...

Maybe those who want to squawk about "Western Oil Companies" making this committment would rather see, lets say China, or Russia getting in on the ground floor there??  That oughta help US demand for secure oil supplies for a looooong time....right??


Ah, but you're forgetting. We're Americans and thus we shouldn't have a great lifestyle. Instead we should pay these uneducated manual workers $2000 a week to learn what they're doing.  ::)

Ah, but you're forgetting. We're Americans and thus we shouldn't have a great lifestyle. Instead we should pay these uneducated manual workers $2000 a week to learn what they're doing.  ::)


Thats right, I forgot...we shouldn't..unless we were all filthy rich, or were all working class bums.....

Maybe those who want to squawk about "Western Oil Companies" making this committment would rather see, lets say China, or Russia getting in on the ground floor there??  That oughta help US demand for secure oil supplies for a looooong time....right??


Right. Because that was exactly what this war was all about from day one. This war wasn't supposed to be about securing oil for increasing American demand, but funny how it just turned out to be that way. Disgusting.

You're all missing the point.  The lie Halliburton and the other economic hitmen companies tell is that they are the best at what they do and they're in your country to improve your life.  Time and again this is proved total hogwash. 

All the Halliburtons of the world are going to do is pocket the loot, fail to get the job done, and be accountable to nobody.

They've got more than date farmers and imams in Iraq.  There's a "professional class" there.  Iraq has its own architects, engineers, civil planners, accountants, bankers, and so forth.  These capable professonals just happen to liven in a country that's been destroyed by war.  Our country needs to throw the corporate pirates out of Iraq and develop a "Marshall Plan" type of program.  The iraqis can rebuild for the Iraqis with Iraqi management and Iraqi labor.  Since their country is a post-war shambles, the U.S. will need to invest the initial capital.  Let the Iraqis manage their own oil industry and use the profits to rebuild their own country.  America, Inc. is a disaster over there.  It needs to end!

Hmmm, let me re-read the first paragraph of the story that started this off.

The Iraqi government plans to introduce a law that will give Western oil companies rights to the country's huge oil reserves, a British newspaper says.

Hmmmm, sounds like that is exactly what they are planning on doing.
...


the so-called Iraqi "election" were completely bogus, even by red-state standards: neither the "candidates" nor the "polling place"were publicized before hand. there is no Iraqi "government" just a yankee propped client state.

the so-called Iraqi "election" were completely bogus, even by red-state standards: neither the "candidates" nor the "polling place"were publicized before hand. there is no Iraqi "government" just a yankee propped client state.

Amen and Karma+1!

Amen and Karma+1!


here's the rumor: al-Malachi will be "replaced" by the U.S. if he can't  "dispose of " al-Sadr and the Mahdi army.

can you say "Ngo Dim Diem'?

here's the rumor: al-Malachi will be "replaced" by the U.S. if he can't  "dispose of " al-Sadr and the Mahdi army.

can you say "Ngo Dim Diem'?


Can you say, "the more things change, the more they stay the same" and "there's nothing new under the sun," and whatever old saw you'd like to apply!

Is it that they never learn, or that we never learn not to believe them when they say they have learned?
:D

Is it that they never learn, or that we never learn not to believe them when they say they have learned?

For some reason, I could hear Donald Rumsfeld saying that ;)

...but I reckon the answer is "both".

For some reason, I could hear Donald Rumsfeld saying that ;)

...but I reckon the answer is "both".

In times gone by when the people overthrew a corrupt leader, they killed him and everybody in his cabinet, down to the lowest footmen, as Cheney and Rumsfeld were in the Nixon Administration.  They did it for shock and awe, and they did it to prevent any of those wiseguys from weaseling back into power.  Machiavelli understood this. 
We don't do that anymore.  In America, we live in a constitutional republic.  There is a legal framework we follow for all procedures in government.
The neo-cons waiting in the wings wished they could pull a Machiavelli on the Clinton Administration.  What they failed to understand is under Machiavellianism all of them would have had been strung up and shot in the 1970s....including Daddy Bush, who was head of the CIA.

What we have now is Machiavelli-Lite.  I hate that.  Either go Machiavelli whole-hog or don't go at all!  None of this Newt Gingrich pussy-footing!
::)

In times gone by when the people overthrew a corrupt leader, they killed him and everybody in his cabinet, down to the lowest footmen, as Cheney and Rumsfeld were in the Nixon Administration. 

Actually, they were not in the "Nixon Administration", they were really in the "Ford Administration".  Under President Nixon, he rose no higher then "Assistant Director of the Cost of Living Council " (that is one of those "faceless retainer" posts I mentioned earlier - the "assistant-assistant of whatever" that really run the Government).  It was only under President Ford that be became Chief of Staff.

Things were more or less the same with Don Rumsfeld.  A retired Navy Captain, he was the US Ambassador to NATO at the end of the Nixon Administration.  Under President Ford, he became Chief of Staff, before being appointed the Secretary of Defense after the "Halloween Massacre".

In fact, if not for the "Halloween Massacre", both of them would have more then likely had long and indistinguished careers as political "Middle Men", assuming one "assistant directorship" or another.  It was only after the resignation of Richard Nixon and the subsequent replacement of his Cabinet that let either of them move up into leading positions.