http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/12/190929.php

So?  That was one day's pay at Iwo Jima!  Get me 3000 more, and let's get on with it!  Can't win a war with these liberal whiners bringing down morale!

My son?  He's got other priorities.
::)

A very sad occasion for the U.S. military in Iraq. Meanwhile Bush goes free*... >:(

It makes me think about an old anti-Vietnam war chant, "hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?".

*Why not sign Jenna and Barbera up, eh, Gee Dub?

They need to get the hell out of there.

It just makes me very angry.




Cat

A very sad occasion for the U.S. military in Iraq. Meanwhile Bush goes free*... >:(

It makes me think about an old anti-Vietnam war chant, "hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?".

*Why not sign Jenna and Barbera up, eh, Gee Dub?

They will.  It's the Special Forces Paris Hilton Brigade! OK, girls, let's march, hep-two-three-four...
:o

It just makes me very angry.




Cat


Ditto.

All I can say is, impeachment hearings... http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/fingersx.gif

Ditto.

All I can say is, impeachment hearings... http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/fingersx.gif



I would LOVE to see that happen. And after that, he (and his cronies) can go on trial for crimes against humanity.



Cat

We'd sooner see Hilary Clinton president before any of that happens.  Congress is too full of their own bullsh*t to start that.  They'd rather impeach someone for getting a knobshine.

I would LOVE to see that happen. And after that, he (and his cronies) can go on trial for crimes against humanity.



Cat


Sounds good. Perhaps we'll get to see Bush "retire" to the Netherlands for the rest of his life. :-X


We'd sooner see Hilary Clinton president before any of that happens.  Congress is too full of their own bullsh*t to start that.  They'd rather impeach someone for getting a knobshine.


I disagree. If there are any legal grounds for it, it will happen with this new Congress.

why does it make me batty when people bring jenna and barbara into it? why's bush's kids got anything to do with it? HE'S the dumbfk here. they're just them daffy partyin' chicks i used to hang with in college, war was the last thing on their minds. jenna reminds me of bianca a little.

they're goofy kids. i'd hate to be held responsible in the national media for all the stupid stuff i did when i was their age. god speed, jenna and barbara! here's to hoping you optimize your beerbong skills.

why does it make me batty when people bring jenna and barbara into it? why's bush's kids got anything to do with it? HE'S the dumbfk here. they're just them daffy partyin' chicks i used to hang with in college, war was the last thing on their minds. jenna reminds me of bianca a little.

they're goofy kids. i'd hate to be held responsible in the national media for all the stupid stuff i did when i was their age. god speed, jenna and barbara! here's to hoping you optimize your beerbong skills.


I've got nothing against them personally because you're right, they are just goofy kids. My point is simply that hes not risking the lives of his own loved ones...

The dems have no spine to impeach him you all know that, it'll likely not happen. This country will never hand a president over for a war crimes trial either. It just won't happen. I think Bush should be investigated, and impeachment possibly looked into, but it won't happen. The dems don't have the backbone.

So then what is the opinion of people on this board about the men and women who have volunteered to join the armed forces since the war started??

So then what is the opinion of people on this board about the men and womnen who have volunteered to join the armed forces since the war started??


I think they all did it for their own personal reasons, I wouldn't have done it myself but they shouldn't be condemned or looked down on for it...

I've got nothing against them personally because you're right, they are just goofy kids. My point is simply that hes not risking the lives of his own loved ones...
troodat, but then lusting for the death of his daughters (which i'm not saying is what you're doing, but i've definitely seen elsewhere) strikes me as a step too far.

usually my standing joke on the matter is to imagine that everybody would joke about jenna being cannonfodder in combat, but... wouldn't it be cool if she spent three weeks knee deep in the s**t and then came out of it born again hard? jenna with a knife in her teeth and a necklace of human thumbs, singlehandedly blowing the treads off of iraqi tanks and then riddling them with machine gun fire? and then, because of the degree of sheer lethal force she's inexplicably capable of unleashing, she does her tour and then comes back to america, has a change of heart and takes the helm of a burgeoning domestic antiwar movement?

hang on, i got a letter to write oliver stone, i think.

troodat, but then lusting for the death of his daughters (which i'm not saying is what you're doing, but i've definitely seen elsewhere) strikes me as a step too far.

usually my standing joke on the matter is to imagine that everybody would joke about jenna being cannonfodder in combat, but... wouldn't it be cool if she spent three weeks knee deep in the s**t and then came out of it born again hard? jenna with a knife in her teeth and a necklace of human thumbs, singlehandedly blowing the treads off of iraqi tanks and then riddling them with machine gun fire? and then, because of the degree of sheer lethal force she's inexplicably capable of unleashing, she does her tour and then comes back to america, has a change of heart and takes the helm of a burgeoning domestic antiwar movement?

hang on, i got a letter to write oliver stone, i think.



That sounds better than the plot of JFK.

That sounds better than the plot of JFK.


No no, he's talking about Born on the Fourth of July Part 2.

No no, he's talking about Born on the Fourth of July Part 2.
yeah! but... funnier.

c'mon. jenna with a bowie knife in her teeth, slaughtering miscreants. you're thinking... finally! something worth a 10 dollar box office ticket! that would be awesome.

No no, he's talking about Born on the Fourth of July Part 2.



I figured as much.  I was just saying that if he sends that to Oliver Stone, it's better than what he wrote for JFK.  I actually liked Born On The Fourth of July.  Tom Cruise when he wasn't a f*cking lunatic.

troodat, but then lusting for the death of his daughters (which i'm not saying is what you're doing, but i've definitely seen elsewhere) strikes me as a step too far.

usually my standing joke on the matter is to imagine that everybody would joke about jenna being cannonfodder in combat, but... wouldn't it be cool if she spent three weeks knee deep in the s**t and then came out of it born again hard? jenna with a knife in her teeth and a necklace of human thumbs, singlehandedly blowing the treads off of iraqi tanks and then riddling them with machine gun fire? and then, because of the degree of sheer lethal force she's inexplicably capable of unleashing, she does her tour and then comes back to america, has a change of heart and takes the helm of a burgeoning domestic antiwar movement?

hang on, i got a letter to write oliver stone, i think.


That sounds like a great story, lol.

You're right I don't lust for their deaths. Although I do lust for something else when it comes to Jenna*.  :-X

*I bet that chick knows how to party!

I figured as much.  I was just saying that if he sends that to Oliver Stone, it's better than what he wrote for JFK.  I actually liked Born On The Fourth of July.  Tom Cruise when he wasn't a f*cking lunatic.
careful g/f! you're talking to someone who LOOOVVVEEESSSS jfk. that's a great frickin' movie.

how deep does the rabbit hole go?!?

...back, and to the left.

That sounds like a great story, lol.

You're right I don't lust for their deaths. Although I do lust for something else when it comes to Jenna*.  :-X

*I bet that chick knows how to party!


She is pretty hot.  ;D

careful g/f! you're talking to someone who LOOOVVVEEESSSS jfk. that's a great frickin' movie.

how deep does the rabbit hole go?!?



My dad loves JFK too.  Went to go see it as soon as it came out.  I watch it almost like I'm watching fiction, so in my mind, from that angle....it's great.

...back, and to the left.



Oh man.  Nothing makes me wretch more than that scene in the courtroom. 

yeah! but... funnier.

c'mon. jenna with a bowie knife in her teeth, slaughtering miscreants. you're thinking... finally! something worth a 10 dollar box office ticket! that would be awesome.


Actually, it sounds more like a cross between "Platoon" and "Private Benjamin" in that case.

Jenna is the blonde, Barbara is the brunette.  I'd rather see Barbara with the bowie knife in her mouth. 

I watch it almost like I'm watching fiction, so in my mind, from that angle....it's great.


Kind of like the Warren Commission? ;)

Jenna is the blonde, Barbara is the brunette.  I'd rather see Barbara with the bowie knife in her mouth. 
barbara's actually marginally credible with a knife in her mouth. she's a member of the notorious skull and crossbones! jenna just strikes me as an out-and-out dumbass. that's why picturing her as the next audie murphy just amuses me to no end.

Kind of like the Warren Commission? ;)




Okay.

Okay.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Commission

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Commission



I'm sorry, were you under the impression I DIDN'T know what that was?  Holy Christ.

I'm sorry, were you under the impression I DIDN'T know what that was?  Holy Christ.


Your response threw me off. It seemed like you didn't know what I was getting at...

So?  That was one day's pay at Iwo Jima!  Get me 3000 more, and let's get on with it!  Can't win a war with these liberal whiners bringing down morale!

My son?  He's got other priorities.
::)


  3,000 American deaths is a tremendous victory, Max.  We're ready to sacrifice 500,000 boys like we did in WWII by 2600...

  Ready for Robocop soldiers..?

  They'll be welcomed in the grateful streets with, um, lubricants and shareware.  All the world will hail the advent of American cybergrunts, and all resistance will cease while everyone sings "God Bless America" groove ;) on...

usually my standing joke on the matter is to imagine that everybody would joke about jenna being cannonfodder in combat, but... wouldn't it be cool if she spent three weeks knee deep in the s**t and then came out of it born again hard? jenna with a knife in her teeth and a necklace of human thumbs, singlehandedly blowing the treads off of iraqi tanks and then riddling them with machine gun fire? and then, because of the degree of sheer lethal force she's inexplicably capable of unleashing, she does her tour and then comes back to america, has a change of heart and takes the helm of a burgeoning domestic antiwar movement?

hang on, i got a letter to write oliver stone, i think.


(Emphasis added.  Heck, some people would probably get off on the necklace of human thumbs too.  Might as well add it in.  Probably one of the few things that hasn't been done before.) 

If he won't take it, Larry Flynt will.  Is that a pair of 44's under her flak jacket, or is she just happy to see us?  "Yes!  To both!"

Wait, we are talking about Ms. Jameson, right?

So then what is the opinion of people on this board about the men and women who have volunteered to join the armed forces since the war started??


I for one haven't ignored your question.

I admire everyone who join the military-for whatever reason. Knowing that we are in a no-win war and they volunteer anyway-that is their choice. But, I am angry at the Administration (and Congress) for getting us in this mess in the first place. I feel that those over 3,000 American men & women and not to mention the countless Iraqis died needlessly.


Yes, I support the troops-probably more so than the present Administration.



Cat

I for one haven't ignored your question.



   I didn't know how to answer.  Felt the question was loaded in light of the topic, but anyway...

   It could be argued that military service can be beneficial to a young person, for all practical purposes.  It was for me...

   Except if you get killed...

   

   

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/Homepage/ShootOfficers3.gif

   I didn't know how to answer.  Felt the question was loaded in light of the topic, but anyway...

   It could be argued that military service can be beneficial to a young person, for all practical purposes.  It was for me...

   Except if you get killed...

   

   

Loaded questions don't kill.  Loaded people with loaded guns kill!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/shotgun.gif

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/Homepage/ShootOfficers3.gif


I support my troops when they extradite you.



As of writing - 10th February 2007 we are at:

3121 US dead.
32,544 US Wounded (Remember, some of these are as minor as cuts and bruises)
132 UK Dead.

... and for the rest of them.
2 Australians Dead.
13 Bulgarians Dead.
6 Danes Dead.
5 El Salvadorans Dead.
2 Estonians Dead.
1 Hungarian Dead
33 Italians Dead.
1 Kazakh Dead.
3 Latvians Dead.
2 Dutch Dead.
19 Polish Dead.
2 Romanians Dead.
4 Slovakians Dead.
11 Spanish Dead.
2 Thai Dead.
18 Ukrainan Dead.

That's 256 non American deaths.

The Iraqi death count just hit a rough 60,000.

So, a combination of Iraqi's, Journalists, Contractors, Other non-Iraqi civilians, US Military and Non US Military casualties gives us a total of just under 70,000.

With a real push we could make 100,000 by 2008.  ::) uuuurrgh.

I suspect the Iraqi death toll is a gross underestimate.

I suspect the Iraqi death toll is a gross underestimate.


Quite possibly. Every time another bomb goes off the death toll usually numbers around 20-30.. and there's usually 1 or 2 of those a day.

we're at war. people die in war.

Really?!  I thought this was a giant game of Stratego.


We're aware it's a war and we're aware in a war, people die.  The point is, we shouldn't be in this war anymore, and the people who have died, should not have died. 

we're at war. people die in war.

That is either terribly profound or terribly insipid.  Possibly both.

Really?!  I thought this was a giant game of Stratego.


We're aware it's a war and we're aware in a war, people die.  The point is, we shouldn't be in this war anymore, and the people who have died, should not have died. 


good point. and that's very true. we shouldn't be at war. but hey, it's not like those people were forced to join the military. they knew that war is a dangerous buissiness. they got themselves into it.

good point. and that's very true. we shouldn't be at war. but hey, it's not like those people were forced to join the military. they knew that war is a dangerous buissiness. they got themselves into it.



No *beep*, Sherlock.  However, that doesn't excuse this administration from unjustly putting them in a position to die.  They didn't ask for THAT.

No *beep*, Sherlock.  However, that doesn't excuse this administration from unjustly putting them in a position to die.  They didn't ask for THAT.


you're right, I am stating the obvious. but i'd say i'm also raising a pretty good point. and they put themselves into the position to die. they joined the army. they signed over their souls to the administration. the administration can do whatever they want with them.

you're right, I am stating the obvious. but i'd say i'm also raising a pretty good point. and they put themselves into the position to die. they joined the army. they signed over their souls to the administration. the administration can do whatever they want with them.



Wow.

Wow.


nice comeback. it's intriguing, as well as extremly educated. look, all i'm saying is that they joined the army knowing that there was a big risk of going to war, as well as a big risk of dying. it is, after all, war. people die in wars.

nice comeback. it's intriguing, as well as extremly educated.


Stuff it.  How's that for "intriguing" and "educated"?

It sounded to me, like you were justifying their deaths while simultaneously saying we had no reason to complain.....since they signed up for it and the administration can do whatever it wants to them.  That's what got the "wow".  Everything copacetic now, dear?  Excellent. 

Stuff it.  How's that for "intriguing" and "educated"?

It sounded to me, like you were justifying their deaths while simultaneously saying we had no reason to complain.....since they signed up for it and the administration can do whatever it wants to them.  That's what got the "wow".  Everything copacetic now, dear?  Excellent. 


yes, that's exactly what i was trying to say. (no sarcasm intended) still, it's not that they diserved to die. ofcourse not. but they did sign up, and they knew what they were getting themselves into. so yes. i think their deaths are justified. they died fighting the war they signed up to fight.

So then following your logic, it doesn't matter if 4,000,000 troops die.  We can't complain because it's a volunteer army and the administration can do what it wants with them. 

All that doesn't excuse this administration for f*cking up and costing people their lives.  Yes they signed up voluntarily, but that doesn't mean their deaths cannot be protested.  It doesn't mean outrage cannot be expressed.  It doesn't mean the administration is right and we just have to suck it up and accept.

So then following your logic, it doesn't matter if 4,000,000 troops die.  We can't complain because it's a volunteer army and the administration can do what it wants with them. 

All that doesn't excuse this administration for f*cking up and costing people their lives.  Yes they signed up voluntarily, but that doesn't mean their deaths cannot be protested.  It doesn't mean outrage cannot be expressed.  It doesn't mean the administration is right and we just have to suck it up and accept.


i see your point. you're right.

why, yes. you've beaten me! you've won the argument. i guess you don't feel like celebrating though?

I was supposed to respond to that? 

I was supposed to respond to that? 


well you seemed to be into the conversation until... until you weren't. i have one thing to say though. we should be complaining about the fact that we're at war. not the fact that people are dying at war. because that's innevitable. 

hold on a minute! are you sister morphine? i would have asked you via personal message, but it seems your block is still in effect.

we should be complaining about the fact that we're at war. not the fact that people are dying at war. because that's innevitable.   

What's this "war" you speak of? This isn't a war, in my opinion. Wars are fought by opposing military factions. This is the military vs religion. These terrorists don't mind sacrificing themselves for a chance at martyrdom, and the promise of 72 virgins in the afterlife. George Bush seems content to send those soldiers over there to be slaughtered, not fight a war with equal rules for each side to follow, as the Geneva Convention states. Also, a disturbing fact is that even when these soldiers finally finish what was suppose to their tour of duty, some are being told that they will have to serve another term or more over there, despite fulfilling their original obligation. I support the troops. I just can't, with a clear concience, support the idiot who sent them over there in the first place.

What's this "war" you speak of? This isn't a war, in my opinion. Wars are fought by opposing military factions. This is the military vs religion. These terrorists don't mind sacrificing themselves for a chance at martyrdom, and the promise of 72 virgins in the afterlife. George Bush seems content to send those soldiers over there to be slaughtered, not fight a war with equal rules for each side to follow, as the Geneva Convention states. Also, a disturbing fact is that even when these soldiers finally finish what was suppose to their tour of duty, some are being told that they will have to serve another term or more over there, despite fulfilling their original obligation. I support the troops. I just can't, with a clear concience, support the idiot who sent them over there in the first place.



Karma +1

What's this "war" you speak of? This isn't a war, in my opinion. Wars are fought by opposing military factions. This is the military vs religion. These terrorists don't mind sacrificing themselves for a chance at martyrdom, and the promise of 72 virgins in the afterlife. George Bush seems content to send those soldiers over there to be slaughtered, not fight a war with equal rules for each side to follow, as the Geneva Convention states. Also, a disturbing fact is that even when these soldiers finally finish what was suppose to their tour of duty, some are being told that they will have to serve another term or more over there, despite fulfilling their original obligation. I support the troops. I just can't, with a clear concience, support the idiot who sent them over there in the first place.


oh, i am no bush supporter. i also don't support this "war". but i'm not gonna complain when people who signed up to fight die.

i'm sorry. is this supposed to be 3,000 casualties since the wr started? cause that's not a whole lot.

i'm sorry. is this supposed to be 3,000 casualties since the wr started? cause that's not a whole lot.

That's 3000 too many, in my opinion. The invasion of Afghanistan was warranted by the tragic events of 9/11, but this whole Iraq debaucle is nothing more than George Bush Sr. serving another term in office thru his son. I've got a secret to let you in on. NOBODY signs up for the military expecting or hoping that they will die. Although it is an inevitable possibillity that could happen, a lot of these soldiers have family back home that they love and want to see again. The pride they recieve from serving their country selflessly is the deciding factor in a lot of cases. It's just too bad that GWB isn't as loyal to the soldiers as they are to the USA, and the free world. 

That's 3000 too many, in my opinion. The invasion of Afghanistan was warranted by the tragic events of 9/11, but this whole Iraq debaucle is nothing more than George Bush Sr. serving another term in office thru his son. I've got a secret to let you in on. NOBODY signs up for the military expecting or hoping that they will die. Although it is an inevitable possibillity that could happen, a lot of these soldiers have family back home that they love and want to see again. The pride they recieve from serving their country selflessly is the deciding factor in a lot of cases. It's just too bad that GWB isn't as loyal to the soldiers as they are to the USA, and the free world. 



An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours.

An Error Has Occurred!
Sorry, you can't repeat a karma action without waiting 24 hours.


That's OK Beth. Your original karma point will hold me for another 24 hours easily. Thanks ;)

That's 3000 too many, in my opinion. The invasion of Afghanistan was warranted by the tragic events of 9/11, but this whole Iraq debaucle is nothing more than George Bush Sr. serving another term in office thru his son. I've got a secret to let you in on. NOBODY signs up for the military expecting or hoping that they will die. Although it is an inevitable possibillity that could happen, a lot of these soldiers have family back home that they love and want to see again. The pride they recieve from serving their country selflessly is the deciding factor in a lot of cases. It's just too bad that GWB isn't as loyal to the soldiers as they are to the USA, and the free world. 


In all fairness, the invasion of Iraq was warranted for three reasons - 1) Toppling a dictator who participated in Mass Genocide. 2) Ensuring that said Dictator didn't do as he was trying (key word - trying, not doing) to do and lay his hands on weapons of large scale destruction and 3) Free an opressed majority population.

However... due to the fact that nobody in the current administration seems to have even heard of appeasement we've created a clusterfu.ck.

Now there is a civil war that we'll all have to pull out of eventually and leave them to it.

In all fairness, the invasion of Iraq was warranted for three reasons - 1) Toppling a dictator who participated in Mass Genocide. 2) Ensuring that said Dictator didn't do as he was trying (key word - trying, not doing) to do and lay his hands on weapons of large scale destruction and 3) Free an opressed majority population.

However... due to the fact that nobody in the current administration seems to have even heard of appeasement we've created a clusterfu.ck.

Now there is a civil war that we'll all have to pull out of eventually and leave them to it.

Saddam slaughtered Kurds with weapons the Reagan administration gave him.  Our government did not care in the '80s.  Saddam was our boy in the Iran/Iraq war.  We did not care about Saddam's atrocities until he invaded Kuwait.  It's all about oil.  The only person willing to admit and defend the position that the war is about oil and who controls it was Christopher Hitchens.  Genocide by its nature takes place on a mass scale.  Saddam did target an ethnic group for atrocities, but his actions do not qualify as genocide.  Mind you, this does not lessen the horrors of what he did in Northern Iraq.  I would not say this occupation is in effect "freeing" anybody.

Ensure is a diet supplament.

Saddam slaughtered Kurds with weapons the Reagan administration gave him.  Our government did not care in the '80s.  Saddam was our boy in the Iran/Iraq war.  We did not care about Saddam's atrocities until he invaded Kuwait.  It's all about oil.  The only person willing to admit and defend the position that the war is about oil and who controls it was Christopher Hitchens.  Genocide by its nature takes place on a mass scale.  Saddam did target an ethnic group for atrocities, but his actions do not qualify as genocide.  Mind you, this does not lessen the horrors of what he did in Northern Iraq.  I would not say this occupation is in effect "freeing" anybody.

Ensure is a diet supplament.


Wait, the killing of thousands isn't genocide?
Ok, fine, Saddam participated in mass murder on an exceptionally grand scale.

Oh come on, you can't use the argument "Well the US gave him weapons." that's like saying the Russians are to blame for every death in Afghanistan because that's where the Afghans got their AK's from.


Ensure is a diet supplament.


Ejumacashun duznt alwayz werk.

Ejumacashun duznt alwayz werk.



Ewe ain't got time fur nun o' dat fancy book lerning stuf.

Ewe ain't got time fur nun o' dat fancy book lerning stuf.


Ronald Reagen done steald my bookz.  ::)... apparently.

Wait, the killing of thousands isn't genocide?
Ok, fine, Saddam participated in mass murder on an exceptionally grand scale.

Oh come on, you can't use the argument "Well the US gave him weapons." that's like saying the Russians are to blame for every death in Afghanistan because that's where the Afghans got their AK's from.



  What doesn't make sense to me is how we pick on him for the gassings.  Donald Rumsfeld, as Max was getting at, was helping get Iraq off the "terrorist sponsor" list and working toward normalizing US-Iraqi relations to begin offering Hussein military assistance while Saddam was committing atrocities against the Kurds and Iranians...

  It seems a little hypocritical to me to hold against the guy what we so implicitly endorsed for years...

  Now, perhaps that doesn't bother you, but my parents' tax dollars went to assist Saddam Hussein, and if I'd been old enough to have an income, so would mine...

  And while reality is its own, I find it considerably bothersome that whenever I am asked to sponsor death and atrocity around the globe, my government cannot ask honestly...

  Americans are so self-righteous at this point that I really can't stand them.  It matters not what the war is about.  The people generally want a war and they're willing to accept any level of dishonesty from their executive in order to get it.

  This war is about immature impatience on the part of the executive and the frothing masses that blindly support him and forgive his consistent history of dishonesty.  It has nothing to do with security or justice, and everything to do with ego and money groove ;) on...

   What doesn't make sense to me is how we pick on him for the gassings.  Donald Rumsfeld, as Max was getting at, was helping get Iraq off the "terrorist sponsor" list and working toward normalizing US-Iraqi relations to begin offering Hussein military assistance while Saddam was committing atrocities against the Kurds and Iranians...

 Americans are so self-righteous at this point that I really can't stand them. 


yes, because we don't have to pay taxes right? american citizens did not choose to go to war. that was all the decision of dumbass the president.

yes, because we don't have to pay taxes right? american citizens did not choose to go to war. that was all the decision of dumbass the president.


  Heh, yeah, we don't have to pay taxes...

  Don't forget - America.  Love it or leave it..!

  An uninformed citizenry assisted in the decision, IMO...

  Bush: "Hello America.  I'm going to lie to you on a regular basis, but that's no reason to not trust me..."  

  If this war is just, it should be conducted honestly.  If this war is just, the people will not shrink away from its ugly costs.  But on what degree of faith should we accept that the liars are telling the truth about anything..? groove ;) on...


 



 

  What doesn't make sense to me is how we pick on him for the gassings.  Donald Rumsfeld, as Max was getting at, was helping get Iraq off the "terrorist sponsor" list and working toward normalizing US-Iraqi relations to begin offering Hussein military assistance while Saddam was committing atrocities against the Kurds and Iranians...

  It seems a little hypocritical to me to hold against the guy what we so implicitly endorsed for years...

  Now, perhaps that doesn't bother you, but my parents' tax dollars went to assist Saddam Hussein, and if I'd been old enough to have an income, so would mine...

  And while reality is its own, I find it considerably bothersome that whenever I am asked to sponsor death and atrocity around the globe, my government cannot ask honestly...

  Americans are so self-righteous at this point that I really can't stand them.  It matters not what the war is about.  The people generally want a war and they're willing to accept any level of dishonesty from their executive in order to get it.

  This war is about immature impatience on the part of the executive and the frothing masses that blindly support him and forgive his consistent history of dishonesty.  It has nothing to do with security or justice, and everything to do with ego and money groove ;) on...


WHat I'd like to know, is if it wasn't this administration that went in to Iraq, how would you feel about it?

Now.. I'm in no way, shape or form a fan of this occupation (as has been stated, this isn't really a war) I think there's a civil war going on that we have nothing to do with.. but the fact remains that the leader of the country was killing thousands upon thousands of people.

He was a murder and needed to be bought to justice. Fact of the matter is, yes, this is an occupation with the idea of gaining a foothold in the middle eastern oil market, but why couldn't the CIA have just taken out Saddam?

WHat I'd like to know, is if it wasn't this administration that went in to Iraq, how would you feel about it?



  Isn't that putting the cart before the horse..?  Assuming another administration would've invaded Iraq, I dunno...



Now.. I'm in no way, shape or form a fan of this occupation (as has been stated, this isn't really a war) I think there's a civil war going on that we have nothing to do with.. but the fact remains that the leader of the country was killing thousands upon thousands of people.

He was a murder and needed to be bought to justice. Fact of the matter is, yes, this is an occupation with the idea of gaining a foothold in the middle eastern oil market, but why couldn't the CIA have just taken out Saddam?


  Could it be that liberating the noble Iraqi people from a cruel, murderous tyrant has nothing, at all, to do with the invasion..? winky-winky... groove ;) on...

  By the way, I know you don't support the Iraqi Adventure.  We're just talking...

Wait, the killing of thousands isn't genocide?
Ok, fine, Saddam participated in mass murder on an exceptionally grand scale.

Oh come on, you can't use the argument "Well the US gave him weapons." that's like saying the Russians are to blame for every death in Afghanistan because that's where the Afghans got their AK's from.



There is no precise definition of genocide.  The Hague did determine Saddam's mass murders of Kurds in the 1980s qualfies as "genocide" by U.N. guidlines.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4555000.stm
Thus, I couldn't call you wrong. 
I saw Saddam committing atrocious crimes against humanity as he put down the Kurdish uprising.  I did not see an intent to systemically destroy the Kurds as an ethnic group, although others have argued this indeed was Saddam's intent.  By the U.N. definitions, there need not be intent to destroy an entire ethnic group or nation for an act of war to be called "genocide."

Again, questioning whether or not it was genocide per se is not tantamount to questioning whether or not Saddam committed crimes against humanity.

Many human rights scholars would rather see the term "genocide" applied more precisely than what the U.N. says.  Anyway, that's another discussion...


WHat I'd like to know, is if it wasn't this administration that went in to Iraq, how would you feel about it?


You got me!  My objection to the Iraq war is all about how much I hate Bush because he's a Christian and a cowboy.  If Clinton did the same thing, I would be leading the charge!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/redblob.gif

You got me!  My objection to the Iraq war is all about how much I hate Bush because he's a Christian and a cowboy.  If Clinton did the same thing, I would be leading the charge!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/08/redblob.gif


;D

Maybe I should elaborate slightly.

Almost straight away people were jumping down the Administrations neck because we all knew they were feeding us a line of BS.. but what if, as you say.. Clinton had gone in to Iraq. After all, Clinton had possibly the most successful military campaign ever in the former Yugoslavia.. essentially ending the conflict without the loss of one soldier.


  Could it be that liberating the noble Iraqi people from a cruel, murderous tyrant has nothing, at all, to do with the invasion..? winky-winky... groove ;) on...
  By the way, I know you don't support the Iraqi Adventure.  We're just talking...


Personally.. I think the whole 'Saddam is a murder, we've got to get rid of him' was more luck than anything else.
You can imagine them all sitting around a big table saying "Right, how do we get a foothold out there.. Saudi Arabia, nah, they have too much money in Wall Street, Iran? Naaaah, that'd be a bastard to control and they've behaved recently, ooh, ooh, UAE.. wait, no, they behave.. hey, wait a second, I've got it, that.. that guy that always wears the uniform.. Sandbag? Saddam, that's it, yeah.. didn't he kill a bunch of folks a little while back?"

we're at war. people die in war.
long as it ain't you or someone you know, eh?

He was a murder and needed to be bought to justice. Fact of the matter is, yes, this is an occupation with the idea of gaining a foothold in the middle eastern oil market, but why couldn't the CIA have just taken out Saddam?

They could have.
It would have costed one bullet.

They could have.
It would have costed one bullet.


Right.

If all this war was about was removing Saddam, they coulda given me a $1,000,000 for a wild week and then set me in Baghdad with a rifle.
I'm a pretty good shot, I reckon I coulda took him out.

long as it ain't you or someone you know, eh?


luckily, i don't know anyone dumb enough to take part in this war.

WHat I'd like to know, is if it wasn't this administration that went in to Iraq, how would you feel about it?

Now.. I'm in no way, shape or form a fan of this occupation (as has been stated, this isn't really a war) I think there's a civil war going on that we have nothing to do with.. but the fact remains that the leader of the country was killing thousands upon thousands of people.

He was a murder and needed to be bought to justice. Fact of the matter is, yes, this is an occupation with the idea of gaining a foothold in the middle eastern oil market, but why couldn't the CIA have just taken out Saddam?


but what does any of that have to do with the u.s.? that's the problem with this country. ever since the soviet union popped up and fell back down, we have become a policing nation.

north vietnam is telling south vietnam to be a comunist country? take them out!!!

saddam is being bad to his people? take him out!!!

the u.s. needs to get out of other countries's issues.

luckily, i don't know anyone dumb enough to take part in this war.

Oh, so now you're calling our troops "dumb," eh? 
::)


;D

Maybe I should elaborate slightly.

Almost straight away people were jumping down the Administrations neck because we all knew they were feeding us a line of BS.. but what if, as you say.. Clinton had gone in to Iraq. After all, Clinton had possibly the most successful military campaign ever in the former Yugoslavia.. essentially ending the conflict without the loss of one soldier.


Had we gotten bogged down with 200,000 boots on the ground in Yugoslavia, we would have seen several thousand U.S. casualties. 

but what does any of that have to do with the u.s.? that's the problem with this country. ever since the soviet union popped up and fell back down, we have become a policing nation.

north vietnam is telling south vietnam to be a comunist country? take them out!!!

saddam is being bad to his people? take him out!!!

the u.s. needs to get out of other countries's issues.


Yeah.. we did that before, It was an Isolationist policy and it left us dangling by a thread in the 40's.