I'm sorry if I offend, but I'm experiencing a deficit in magnanimity here.

The fundamentalist powerbrokers of monotheism continue to bring us bloodshed and misery in the 21st century.  A proclaimed atheist who tried to run for the senate today would be drummed out of the public sphere by raging religious fanatics, and yet we have members of congress who believe in creationism and call global warming a "hoax."  The media kowtows to them and they get leadership positions in senate committees.  The rulers of America, along with the rulers of the Muslim theocracies again and again are choosing superstition over reason, and it's starting to feel like the Enlightenment is going dim all over again!
::)

I'm sorry if I offend, but I'm experiencing a deficit in magnanimity here.

The fundamentalist powerbrokers of monotheism continue to bring us bloodshed and misery in the 21st century.  A proclaimed atheist who tried to run for the senate today would be drummed out of the public sphere by raging religious fanatics, and yet we have members of congress who believe in creationism and call global warming a "hoax." 


This irks me so much, because its true. This is a country where an atheist just could not get elected nationally or statewide. Perhaps in a select few local elections(in places like San Francisco or Portland), but thats it. Thats SAD, ignorant and insulting in the wealthiest nation in the world and supposedly the most free and advanced. FFS, Germany had an atheist President(Schroeder). Compare that to here.

This irks me so much, because its true. This is a country where an atheist just could not get elected nationally or statewide. Perhaps in a select few local elections(in places like San Francisco or Portland), but thats it. Thats SAD, ignorant and insulting in the wealthiest nation in the world and supposedly the most free and advanced. FFS, Germany had an atheist President(Schroeder). Compare that to here.

That's why I like the idea of total separation of church and state.  I should not need to concern myself with whether a candidate is a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Wiccan, an agnostic, or an atheist.  I should only need concern myself with whether he or she will conduct sound and productive policies foreign and domestic.  Same thing with sexual orientation.  In 2003, there was a rumor Ralph Nader was gay.  My gut reaction was, "So what?  What difference does that make?"  Then I recalled two words "red America."  They don't care if a politician is as crazy as a rat in a tin sh*thouse and takes all his orders from big business.  If he appears to be an animated Norman Rockwell, he's our man! (Ronald Reagan). 

Rep. Barney Frank often talks about being gay, but that's only because everybody else won't shut the h#ll up about it!
:D

Obviously at this point in time an Atheist would not get elected into a position of power, yet.  Perhaps with the efforts I see on some some of the Atheism websites, the population of atheist voters or supporters may grow and make that a possibility. I personally was amazed at the effort being put into combatting Christianity & the religious right on some of these sites.

I don't think that having an Atheist as a president or will keep our country from war and bloodshed and not to be sarcastic but I didn't realize that Germany was such an admired country to make a comparison with.


That's why I like the idea of total separation of church and state.  I should not need to concern myself with whether a candidate is a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, a Wiccan, an agnostic, or an atheist.  I should only need concern myself with whether he or she will conduct sound and productive policies foreign and domestic.  Same thing with sexual orientation.  In 2003, there was a rumor Ralph Nader was gay.  My gut reaction was, "So what?  What difference does that make?"  Then I recalled two words "red America."  They don't care if a politician is as crazy as a rat in a tin sh*thouse and takes all his orders from big business.  If he appears to be an animated Norman Rockwell, he's our man! (Ronald Reagan). 

Rep. Barney Frank often talks about being gay, but that's only because everybody else won't shut the h#ll up about it!
:D
I guess i can prospect in the board myself, but out of laziness I'll just ask, was there or is there a separation of church and state thread? 

I didn't mean to imply Mike would persecute anyone, but the church has a history where that's concerned.  My point was, scientists like questions, the church establisment does not.  The mainstream Catholic church has come a loooong way in the past forty years alone.  Like I say, they don't teach "intelligent design" in the Notre Dame biology dept.
::)


Right. It's interesting to see that the main church body has come around on the subject. I don't consider Protestant groups part of the main Christian church anyway. They're just splinter groups, there are so many of them it's hard to keep track.  ;D


I'm sorry if I offend, but I'm experiencing a deficit in magnanimity here.

The fundamentalist powerbrokers of monotheism continue to bring us bloodshed and misery in the 21st century.  A proclaimed atheist who tried to run for the senate today would be drummed out of the public sphere by raging religious fanatics, and yet we have members of congress who believe in creationism and call global warming a "hoax."  The media kowtows to them and they get leadership positions in senate committees.  The rulers of America, along with the rulers of the Muslim theocracies again and again are choosing superstition over reason, and it's starting to feel like the Enlightenment is going dim all over again!
::)


True. True. True. People like to complain that we bow to pressure from all these different religious groups, social groups etc.. and it's true we do. But what nobody ever really has the balls to say, is this. America is not a religious country. There is a distinct seperation of church and state, thus, religion is a 100% private matter. I for one find Christianity repulsive, offensives and virilant and want it nowhere near me but every day on the news, in schools, in offices around the country it is force fed because - "We're a christian nation." - Guess what, "We're not."


I don't think that having an Atheist as a president or will keep our country from war and bloodshed and not to be sarcastic but I didn't realize that Germany was such an admired country to make a comparison with.


Not been to Germany have you?

I don't think having a non-religious president would keep us out of war either (oh by the way, the term atheist.. I don't use it.. I don't believe in relgion period.. i don't think it should exist and thus by calling myself an atheist I am just feeding the fire of religion.  ;)). The fact that America is the worlds only remaining superpower means we can't stay out of it. People like to complain and say "Oooh we went in to such and such a country uninvited." These of course are the same people who want us to send taskforces to a different sh.ithole in Africa every other weekend.

Not been to Germany have you?

I don't think having a non-religious president would keep us out of war either (oh by the way, the term atheist.. I don't use it.. I don't believe in relgion period.. i don't think it should exist and thus by calling myself an atheist I am just feeding the fire of religion.  ;)). The fact that America is the worlds only remaining superpower means we can't stay out of it. People like to complain and say "Oooh we went in to such and such a country uninvited." These of course are the same people who want us to send taskforces to a different sh.ithole in Africa every other weekend.
never been to Germany, but my mother spoke fluent German, and has traces in the bloodline, but mostly Yugoslavian and Austria.

So you gotta have a label, if not atheist, what?
We end up going into these countries/places because no one else will, and because we care  ;)

never been to Germany, but my mother spoke fluent German, and has traces in the bloodline, but mostly Yugoslavian and Austria.

So you gotta have a label, if not atheist, what?
We end up going into these countries/places because no one else will, and because we care  ;)


Nobody else is equipped to.

Don't gotta have a label at all. I am man.

Germany, wonderful country. Have had some economic trouble recently but then again who hasn't.

Nobody else is equipped to.

Don't gotta have a label at all. I am man.

Germany, wonderful country. Have had some economic trouble recently but then again who hasn't.
my mom used to make killer weinerschnitzel, man that woman could cook. so you're kinda like Prince when he went by no name, however he did use an unpronouncable symbol as his label. maybe you could devise one for yourself. 

my mom used to make killer weinerschnitzel, man that woman could cook. so you're kinda like Prince when he went by no name, however he did use an unpronouncable symbol as his label. maybe you could devise one for yourself. 


Don't tempt me to find a swastika dude.  ;D

Atheists can be just as virulent and rah-rah as fundies.  I haven't met an atheist yet who didn't make it their mission in life to convert every religious/spiritual person they've ever met.  Granted I don't know every single atheist in the world, so I'm sure there are some who don't do that, but much like religious folk.......the weird, wild and wacky ones are those who get airtime. 


Some of you seem to dislike the fact that while America doesn't have a national religion, we are a religious country.  Well, unless you get a nation full of atheists and agnostics, there's going to be religious people in the majority, no matter what that religion is.  It's not the fact that religious people are in the majority that is bothersome....it's the kind of religious people they are.

I guess i can prospect in the board myself, but out of laziness I'll just ask, was there or is there a separation of church and state thread? 


I seem to remember a few such threads.  The liberals said the First Amendment is intended to keep a wall of separation between church and state.  The conservatives said the First Amendment is there to allow the church to rule the government, and forbid the government from having any say in the church.  I say, in the hands of conservatives, organized religion is the front office for fascism, whether the receptionist is Kenneth Starr or John Ashcroft!

Whether the Founding Fathers were Christians or Deists matters not.  They saw religion informing the state as a threat to the liberties they wished to establish.  The fundies always say, "Yeah, but that just means they did not want the government to be able to establish a state religion like the Church of England."  Thomas Jefferson would have LOATHED the Christian Right of today.  He would have seen straight through their bogus ecumenical pretenses to the bare fact that the Christian Right indeed wants to establish a state religion like the C of E back in Jefferson's day.  Jefferson knew if you did not keep the church out of the government, the theocrats would not stop fighting for control until the people's freedom to worship--or not worship--as they chose was completely undermined.


Atheists can be just as virulent and rah-rah as fundies.  I haven't met an atheist yet who didn't make it their mission in life to convert every religious/spiritual person they've ever met.  Granted I don't know every single atheist in the world,
You meet devout Christians every day who don't evangelize to you.  Same with atheists.  Some atheists are indeed a mirror image of fundamentalist fanatics in their passion to convince one and all there is no God.  Most atheists prefer to mind their own business with a point of view closer to, "I don't believe in God, but it's none of my business whether you do or not.  It's a free country."  Same goes for most religions people.  It's only a minority in any religion saying, "Believe as I do or my God will smite you!"

I don't think that having an Atheist as a president or will keep our country from war and bloodshed and not to be sarcastic but I didn't realize that Germany was such an admired country to make a comparison with.


This comment is extremely uninformed. Germany is a democracy, has been the last 50 years(actually, almost 60 now I think) and is one of the most advanced and prosperous nations in the world.

You meet devout Christians every day who don't evangelize to you.  Same with atheists.  Some atheists are indeed a mirror image of fundamentalist fanatics in their passion to convince one and all there is no God.  Most atheists prefer to mind their own business with a point of view closer to, "I don't believe in God, but it's none of my business whether you do or not.  It's a free country."  Same goes for most religions people.  It's only a minority in any religion saying, "Believe as I do or my God will smite you!"



I just said this. 

I think that removing a skeleton from a museum, just because "It goes against "proof" that God created us, instead of us involving from apes", is the most silliest thing I have ever heard.

Of course we involved from apes.... How else can you explain Mel Gibson?  ;D

This has been another Jamie's awkward attemp at sarcastic humor momment.  ;D

I think that removing a skeleton from a museum, just because "It goes against "proof" that God created us, instead of us involving from apes", is the most silliest thing I have ever heard.

Of course we involved from apes.... How else can you explain Mel Gibson?  ;D

This has been another Jamie's awkward attemp at sarcastic humor momment.  ;D

The simian ancestors homosapiens evolved from are long extinct.  Today's primates are of a different line.  Creationists don't seem to get it.  We did not evolve from "apes" per se.

Following a long history of being slammed for my opinion on this board, I'm going for another attempt because I feel obligated to insert my two cents on this issue.  

There are many complicated reasons for someone to become a rabid evangelical or an unbending Darwinist.  Personally, I feel I fall somewhere in between.  Specifically, I believe that a supernatural power does exist but they have allowed the species to develop freely, with infrequent interventions.  I think, however, that one of the reasons certain people are so devoted to the creationist theory is that the idea that we were magically created by a God simply seems much more romantic and pleasant than the concept of once being nothing more than a mere amoeba.  

Before casting stones at anyone for "being on the other side of the street" in the evolution vs. creationism debate, it is important to remember that both philosophies have at one time or another been used as justification for monstrous evil.  Today, you are witnessing the violent Muslim fundamentalist movement raising chaos in the Middle East, with the same reasoning (albeit to a lesser degree, at least thus far) as the murderous Catholic Crusades of the Middle Ages.  Religion can be used for good intentions, but it is also a powerful tool of corruption when the wrong users are empowered.  

Social Darwinism also has done its fair share of malice.  One of the most prominent examples that come to mind is Adolf the Abominable and his Minions of Malevolence.  One of the lesser-known facts about Nazi Germany is that the tactics that were used in the mass extermination of "undesirables" and political dissidents in the 1940s across Europe was "given a dry run" in the 1930s by a government program called Aktion-T4.  It was directed by a group of physicans at a German university, namely "Drs." (using that title with these villains unrightfully legitimizes their work) Carl "Hans Heinze" Sennhenn and Werner Villinger, and involved the "mercy killing" of the mentally ill and retarded.  These methods were later implemented on a greater scale by such"righteous" folk as Heinrich Himmler, Adolf Eichmann, Alois Brunner and carried out by the likes of "Drs." Josef Mengele, Herta Oberheuser, and Carl Vaernet, not to mention the hideous Amon Goth and Rudolf Hoss.  These subhuman scum drew on their Darwinist background and admiration of "natural selection" to carry out this genocide (democide).  

In essence, neither side of the debate can claim moral superiority, and the best policy is to simply sigh and respect the views of the other.        

The simian ancestors homosapiens evolved from are long extinct.  Today's primates are of a different line.  Creationists don't seem to get it.  We did not evolve from "apes" per se.


True.

But stilll.....

This comment is extremely uninformed. Germany is a democracy, has been the last 50 years(actually, almost 60 now I think) and is one of the most advanced and prosperous nations in the world.
I accept your criticism of my comment Alex, it was more a involuntary reflex, sort of a defense mechanism, mainly because it irks me to see my fellow Americans list countries in a way that makes us look or seem inferior and perhaps that was not what you intended. Meanwhile I always try to inform myself, at least a little and read "Germany possesses the world's third most technologically powerful economy after the US and Japan


I think that removing a skeleton from a museum, just because "It goes against "proof" that God created us, instead of us involving from apes", is the most silliest thing I have ever heard.

Of course we involved from apes.... How else can you explain Mel Gibson?  ;D

This has been another Jamie's awkward attemp at sarcastic humor momment.  ;D
I would be willing to check, but without serious investigation as to what bones were found, i would be quick to say it was not a entire skeleton, maybe a few bones and they make a skeleton from that, which has been tried before and was discovered to be a pig.  ???

I would be willing to check, but without serious investigation as to what bones were found, i would be quick to say it was not a entire skeleton, maybe a few bones and they make a skeleton from that, which has been tried before and was discovered to be a pig.  ???


My question to you.. Mr. Finger ( ;D) is this.

If you don't like the idea of humans evolving over time, do you accept the idea of other species evolving over time? After all, we have seen in the course of human history - short term evolution - in many animals.

Davey kind of has a point there.

Davey kind of has a point there.


Davey always has a point...... ladies.

;D

I accept your criticism of my comment Alex, it was more a involuntary reflex, sort of a defense mechanism, mainly because it irks me to see my fellow Americans list countries in a way that makes us look or seem inferior and perhaps that was not what you intended.


It was exactly what I intended. We may have a more powerful military and the most wealthy economy, however thats not everything. On many social issues, as far as Western countries go, America is pretty backwards. Certain American attitudes are more comparable to the views of uneducated third world masses than to those of other industrialised nations such as Germany or France.

My question to you.. Mr. Finger ( ;D) is this.

If you don't like the idea of humans evolving over time, do you accept the idea of other species evolving over time? After all, we have seen in the course of human history - short term evolution - in many animals.
nobody has ever called me Mr Finger  ;D  Other species evolving over time?  what species, & what amount of time are we talking here, what was the animal like before it became what it is today?  the turkana boy find, 1.7million years, if it's a creature that maybe started it's evolving then during that time, well that's about 30,000 to 40,000 generations of the animal, and what gradual changes took place and what fossils are availabe for scrutiny for each change that the animal took place?  Am I being scientific at all here or am I just babbling  ??? I've said this before and I'll say it again,  I really need to be in Playful Penguin Place  ;D

nobody has ever called me Mr Finger  ;D  Other species evolving over time?  what species, & what amount of time are we talking here, what was the animal like before it became what it is today?  the turkana boy find, 1.7million years, if it's a creature that maybe started it's evolving then during that time, well that's about 30,000 to 40,000 generations of the animal, and what gradual changes took place and what fossils are availabe for scrutiny for each change that the animal took place?  Am I being scientific at all here or am I just babbling  ??? I've said this before and I'll say it again,  I really need to be in Playful Penguin Place  ;D


Ah, Mr. Finger has stumbled upon the minor flaws in the theory of evolution...the monstrous gaps in fossil record!  There's no doubt that some form of evolution exists, but the debate is not in whether it happens, it's in the "how" and "why" ;)

It was exactly what I intended. We may have a more powerful military and the most wealthy economy, however thats not everything. On many social issues, as far as Western countries go, America is pretty backwards. Certain American attitudes are more comparable to the views of uneducated third world masses than to those of other industrialised nations such as Germany or France.
well dang you Alex, you had me reading up on Germany on break while at work today  >:(  when i could have been napping, but I read that their social & economic situation is starting to suffer due to their social care/benefits structure and I'm not that smart, but that made me think that their system isn't working too well.

well dang you Alex, you had me reading up on Germany on break while at work today  >:(  when i could have been napping, but I read that their social & economic situation is starting to suffer due to their social care/benefits structure and I'm not that smart, but that made me think that their system isn't working too well.


This isn't an economic discussion, its a social one.

Edit: But to address what you're saying here, I've read that the United States has had a growing gap between the rich and the poor over the last thirty years because of economic leniency that allows it's corporations to export jobs overseas, that allows wages here to stagnate despite inflation and so on. Its all a double-edged sword it seems. I think its about what you value most, and I think our priorities are out of wack.

Ah, Mr. Finger has stumbled upon the minor flaws in the theory of evolution...the monstrous gaps in fossil record!  There's no doubt that some form of evolution exists, but the debate is not in whether it happens, it's in the "how" and "why" ;)
They call me Mr Finger  ;D   No Matter What we believe, it seems that a good amount of faith is required for either Creation/Evolution
here's definitions from a couple of dictionaries
FAITH
That which is believed on any subject, whether in science, politics, or religion

belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof


This isn't an economic discussion, its a social one.
oh yeah,  the German leadership was Atheist, but has that made a difference in the country, are they a better nation because of it, and are religious values lessened because of the leaders own lifestyle and are repessed does their democratic nation allow complete freedom of religion.

oh yeah,  the German leadership was Atheist, but has that made a difference in the country, are they a better nation because of it, and are religious values lessened because of the leaders own lifestyle and are repessed does their democratic nation allow complete freedom of religion.



Germany very much allows freedom of religion, and unlike here it can seem at times, freedom FROM religion.

I wasn't trying to make a case for Schroeder's atheism making him a more effective leader. My point was simply that its sad and wrong that considering how advanced the U.S.A. is, that we aren't mature enough as a nation to be able to elect worthy Atheist public servants. I was comparing it to Germany because its a similarly-advanced nation and does not have the same problem.

Germany very much allows freedom of religion, and unlike here it can seem at times, freedom FROM religion.

I wasn't trying to make a case for Schroeder's atheism making him a more effective leader. My point was simply that its sad and wrong that considering how advanced the U.S.A. is, that we aren't mature enough as a nation to be able to elect worthy Atheist public servants. I was comparing it to Germany because its a similarly-advanced nation and does not have the same problem.


A leader's religion will not affect his ability to lead unless he/she is radical enough to let it interfere with logical decision-making processes.  By the way, I've never seen an atheist run for office, at least not in my district.  Of course, it wouldn't affect my vote unless I perceived said individual to be a threat to others' freedom of religion.

Germany very much allows freedom of religion, and unlike here it can seem at times, freedom FROM religion.

I wasn't trying to make a case for Schroeder's atheism making him a more effective leader. My point was simply that its sad and wrong that considering how advanced the U.S.A. is, that we aren't mature enough as a nation to be able to elect worthy Atheist public servants. I was comparing it to Germany because its a similarly-advanced nation and does not have the same problem.
So do you think his being an Atheist had nothing to do with geting voted in. Or are you implying that they as a nation are more tolerant and look past his faith or non/faith. Either way you know that a leader of non-faith will support the opposite on issues that are supported by the religious and if the leader has no desire or allegiance to have any moral religious reference, than they'll always vote against the religious right, but I guess it's the other way when the shoe is on the other foot and I don't see any middle ground.

Or are you implying that they as a nation are more tolerant and look past his faith or non/faith.


Thats what I'm saying.

I don't think we as a nation are capable of doing that when it comes to an Atheist, yet.

Thats what I'm saying.

I don't think we as a nation are capable of doing that when it comes to an Atheist, yet.
Yeah, you're right, and we probably won't ever  be a nation capable of that

Yeah, you're right, and we probably won't ever  be a nation capable of that


I don't think thats true, Mike. Its just going to take a long time. By that I mean a LONG time, but considering the history of our country its safe to say it will happen because the progressive stance always wins out in the end. Women got the vote. Slaves were emancipated. Jim Crow was abolished.

The reason why its that way now is the cold hard fact that most Americans have a bigoted view of Atheists. There have been surveys and studies conducted which have shown we are the most distrusted minority group in America, even ahead of Muslims and Gays. Another survey showed the majority of people would approve of their child marrying outside of their race or marrying someone of another religion before they'd approve of them marrying an atheist. Its a pretty sad situation that in a country as "free" as ours being an Atheist is a form of social leprosy in almost every part of the country, except for perhaps very liberal urban areas such as San Francisco, NYC, Portland etc.

I've mentioned on here before that I am not openly an atheist. In public I dodge religious discussions or just try to leave it at me being "non-religious". Being non-religious, spiritual but non-religious and agnostic are all acceptable it seems(except for maybe the Bible Belt I guess), but not atheism. Everyone looks down on us. The believers and a lot of agnostics too, to be honest.

It has partly to do with the association of atheism with communism.  This is inacurate.

I've argued before the communist dictatorships of the past century do not qualify as atheist.  They were "cults of personality."  The dicator-for-life, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jung Ii, Ceausescu or whoever, supplanted God's absolute authority and ominscience with his own.  The suppressed religion less out of "imagine no religion" and more out of "imagine no competition!"
::)