One thing that always strikes me in here, is how there is often little attempt made at "debate".

In fact, many times the discourse in here is more like the old Monty Python bit, "The Argument Clinic".  Most of the time, it is little more then "I am right", "No, I am right",  "Yes it is",  "No it is not."

And along those lines, I also find it very funny at how people assume they "know me", because of how I post in here.  They simply assume that I must follow certain beliefs, because of the things I argue for or against.  And in those arguments, they take a "right or wrong" attitude, where everything is either an attack, or an agreement.

And most interestingly, most people do not really have any idea what I believe in.  This is because they are unable to disassociate the topics I debate on with my real beliefs.  They simply assume that because I debate one way, that is how I myself believe.

Myself, I view the discussions in here as just that, debate on topics.  And the goal is not to convince people who is right and wrong, as much as a way to share ideas.  I have no goal of gaining "converts", and do not like people trying to "convert" me.  Most of the time, I am simply giving my point of view of a topic.  And people are perfectly free to agree or dissagree with me.  All I ever ask is that they be civil and topical.  If the "conversation" is about Topic A (say, Microsoft Vista), I really see no rason to bring up things like the President, or Iraq, or anything else.

And here is the real thing I am getting at:  A great many times, I act in here as a "spoiler".

One thing I have said in here before, is that the last thing I want this board to become is a kind of "Left Wing Rah-Rah Club".  After all, most of us come here to have conversations.  There is not much conversation going on if everybody just sits around and agrees with each other.  That to me sounds like one of the dullest things in the world.  And I can do that in front of any mirror, I do not need anybody else.

And one topic in particular that I have recently been a "spoiler" in is the "VA Tombstone" thread.  Myself, I really do not care.  And if it makes people happy, then I think the VA should do it.  However, all I saw was a lot of people saying how wrong it was, so I made the conscious decision to argue the other side.  I wanted to see some real reasons, not simply a bunch of feelings.

And I want to make the following challenge to some others in here:  Try to argue something opposite of how you would normally argue.  It really is a mental challenge.  And this is the type of things that all lawyers train in, in addition to "Debate Societies".  I was in Debate in High School, and both the topic and our viewpoint was handed to us on a card.  Our own personal belief had no bearing on the debate, the idea was to make an argument in favor of your position.  Lawyers do that all the time, it is part of their job.

Or do you really think that OJ's "Dream Team" really thought he was innocent?  Yet their job was to go into court every day and argue that he was, reguardless of what they really believed.

A great many times in here, I actually enter in as the "Lone Conservative", simply because nobody else is doing so.  To me, I am mostly entering into a debate.  And the idea is to have an intellectual conversation, where myself and other people are trying to state our beliefs, and reasons behind them.  I am not simply looking for political babble.  If I want to hear a bunch of Dogma, I can drag out my copy of The Comunist Manifesto or Mein Kampf.

And I also prefer to find things in common, that everybody can agree on.  I much prefer to concentrate on things that pull people together, instead of things that push them apart.

People feel however they feel about certain issues and they express those feelings the way they want.  They just want to say what they want to say and move on.  That's enough for them.  Maybe they don't know enough about the topic to post ad infinitum and sometimes they do, but they don't want to.  That's their choice and that should be good enough.

Well, when you're talking about politics and ethics and such, it's hard to say if someone's "right" or "wrong" because those are subjective arguments.  Heck, even in the scientific community, there is constant debate (HA!) over whether one model is favored over another.  You have no idea how often someone publishes in a journal and then is proven wrong a few months later, and then the views are reversed. 

I wouldn't worry too much over a messageboard "debate" though.  The way I see it, there are two kinds of people...those who like to talk, and those who actually do something about it.  I mainly view these topics just for fun and don't feel the need to get too worked up over anything.  Heck, I might even learn something!  :o

Well, when you're talking about politics and ethics and such, it's hard to say if someone's "right" or "wrong" because those are subjective arguments. 


I almost never consider things "right or wrong" in here.  And just like you say, that is very subjective.  Just because I believe in something, that does not make ir "right".  And I fully realize that.  That is why I almost never try to debate on an issue in this matter.

About the only time I will stand up and say something is "wrong" is for example in reguards to one of my own private issues: Genocide.  I will stand up every time and say it is wrong, and believe that somebody is seriously wrong if they think it can be defended in any way.

well, i'll just say that i find you unusually difficult to talk to because you resort to sarcasm, kinda make like you're being victimized -- you know, you're so outnumbered or are the "lone conservative" or whatever, or you post far-right attitudes (people deserve to get electrocuted for not showing ID, or basically being in support of everything that bush does, and then when you get called on it you claim, speciously, that you sometimes differ in opinion with bush, when really, essentially, you don't), or you continually put yourself forward as the ultimate best example of something. as in the whole katrina debate we had some time ago, when you basically said that you have a first-aid kit on hand and that if everyone in new orleans had done the same as you, there basically would have been no problem. and bush, of course, was absolved of all blame for everything that went on there. and there's no real debate or engagement there, it's just sorta an exercise in naysaying (as you say, you try to be a "spoiler") or a recitation of conservative doctrine that has no real reasoning behind it.

or there's always the non-sequitur, such as the recent argument vis-a-vis CIA agents at the scene of bobby kennedy's death, where you said the CIA would actually have wanted to assassinate nixon. it seems so out of the blue it's difficult to respond to it, or see where it's related.

there are other people who i see as being basically right wing but are more level-headed, like davey and rice cube, where we can actually engage in dialogue and find common ground. but you seem to be very prickly about politics -- you take things really really personally and get upset and there's just no way of finding any level of genuine engagement.

Complaint does not foster debate, just more complaint.

and i should clarify -- when i say you post "far-right ideas," there is actually nothing in itself wrong with that. other people on this board do the same. but when you then turn around and say you're basically a middle-of-the-roader, it makes me scratch my head and wonder how i can find a way to even get a basic sense of consensus reality. it's like if someone was in front of you, who's plainly, i dunno, a horse, and they're claiming unequivocally that they are in fact a wolf. i don't know where to begin because there's no common ground on even what the terms of the debate are, what the essential reality is that we're all using as an assumed point of departure.

The tone of question suggests the tone of the answers.

max: as pithy as we are prolix.

max: as pithy as we are prolix.

Not really, but I can try!
;)

I think people have a tendency to debate using emotion far more than using logic - it's just human nature.  Especially in the recent political climate.  I don't have anything against you personally, but I do have pretty much everything against many of the political conservatives that are out there, especially the Bushies.  And in my experience, it's the conservatives that won't debate.  It seems, at least around here, that people think they can quote the Bible or what Rush Limbaugh says, and the debate will be over.  God forbid they use any sort of independent thought.  You don't do this - in fact, even though I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what you say, I totally respect you for thinking it through, and for standing up for what you believe in.

I think people have a tendency to debate using emotion far more than using logic - it's just human nature.  Especially in the recent political climate.  I don't have anything against you personally, but I do have pretty much everything against many of the political conservatives that are out there, especially the Bushies.  And in my experience, it's the conservatives that won't debate.  It seems, at least around here, that people think they can quote the Bible or what Rush Limbaugh says, and the debate will be over.  God forbid they use any sort of independent thought.  You don't do this - in fact, even though I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what you say, I totally respect you for thinking it through, and for standing up for what you believe in.


I do not refer to Mushroom here, but the Right in this country has been proven wrong on every front.  They've proven time and again they're all about greed.  They cannot afford cold logic.  They need fear and ridicule to keep their schemes going!

I do not refer to Mushroom here, but the Right in this country has been proven wrong on every front.  They've proven time and again they're all about greed.  They cannot afford cold logic.  They need fear and ridicule to keep their schemes going!


Absolutely.  Which makes them impossible to debate with.

One thing that always strikes me in here, is how there is often little attempt made at "debate".

In fact, many times the discourse in here is more like the old Monty Python bit, "The Argument Clinic".  Most of the time, it is little more then "I am right", "No, I am right",  "Yes it is",  "No it is not."

And along those lines, I also find it very funny at how people assume they "know me", because of how I post in here.  They simply assume that I must follow certain beliefs, because of the things I argue for or against.  And in those arguments, they take a "right or wrong" attitude, where everything is either an attack, or an agreement.

And most interestingly, most people do not really have any idea what I believe in.  This is because they are unable to disassociate the topics I debate on with my real beliefs.  They simply assume that because I debate one way, that is how I myself believe.

Myself, I view the discussions in here as just that, debate on topics.  And the goal is not to convince people who is right and wrong, as much as a way to share ideas.  I have no goal of gaining "converts", and do not like people trying to "convert" me.  Most of the time, I am simply giving my point of view of a topic.  And people are perfectly free to agree or dissagree with me.  All I ever ask is that they be civil and topical.  If the "conversation" is about Topic A (say, Microsoft Vista), I really see no rason to bring up things like the President, or Iraq, or anything else.

And here is the real thing I am getting at:  A great many times, I act in here as a "spoiler".

One thing I have said in here before, is that the last thing I want this board to become is a kind of "Left Wing Rah-Rah Club".  After all, most of us come here to have conversations.  There is not much conversation going on if everybody just sits around and agrees with each other.  That to me sounds like one of the dullest things in the world.  And I can do that in front of any mirror, I do not need anybody else.

And one topic in particular that I have recently been a "spoiler" in is the "VA Tombstone" thread.  Myself, I really do not care.  And if it makes people happy, then I think the VA should do it.  However, all I saw was a lot of people saying how wrong it was, so I made the conscious decision to argue the other side.  I wanted to see some real reasons, not simply a bunch of feelings.

And I want to make the following challenge to some others in here:  Try to argue something opposite of how you would normally argue.  It really is a mental challenge.  And this is the type of things that all lawyers train in, in addition to "Debate Societies".  I was in Debate in High School, and both the topic and our viewpoint was handed to us on a card.  Our own personal belief had no bearing on the debate, the idea was to make an argument in favor of your position.  Lawyers do that all the time, it is part of their job.

Or do you really think that OJ's "Dream Team" really thought he was innocent?  Yet their job was to go into court every day and argue that he was, reguardless of what they really believed.

A great many times in here, I actually enter in as the "Lone Conservative", simply because nobody else is doing so.  To me, I am mostly entering into a debate.  And the idea is to have an intellectual conversation, where myself and other people are trying to state our beliefs, and reasons behind them.  I am not simply looking for political babble.  If I want to hear a bunch of Dogma, I can drag out my copy of The Comunist Manifesto or Mein Kampf.

And I also prefer to find things in common, that everybody can agree on.  I much prefer to concentrate on things that pull people together, instead of things that push them apart.



You may think that you act as the "spoiler" in many threads but the way you do it leaves it open to interreptation by other posters. Meaning, if you want to play Devil's Advocate-ok, but SAY that is what you are doing. You can say, "IMO" (to let us know this is what you think)  or "Some people may think/believe..." but you don't. And in fact, I have seen you say to other people, "You are wrong" (maybe not in so many words).

I, too did debate in school and I had a topic where I was on the "con" side but my own personal belief was the "pro" side. But, debate is a two-way street. There are many, many sides to an issue and personally, I like to hear those sides. I have seen you use absolutes in your arguements instead of leaving room to other side to make their arguments. And I'm sure that you know when you use absolutes, there is no room for debate. I must admit that there was only one time when your arguments really got to me (and made me angry) and that was the Wiccans fighting the V.A. because that is something very personal to me.


That is just my opinion. Agree/disagree as you will.




Cat

IMO, debate is a two way street.  Even when some try to follow the "rules" of debate, they are met with a "You are wrong" comment by the dissenting party or simply called an idiot or some other derogatory name.  Plenty of people here give facts, figures, use logic, etc.  AFA the "left-wing rah rah club", I've rarely seen that.  Even those who have the same political leanings have disagreed on certain subjects/points.  Just because most of us lean towards the left doesn't necessarily mean we all sit around agreeing with each other and singing "Kumbayah".  I try not to let emotion get in the way of my arguments because when I do, I usually get lambasted or simply called a liar, but it's inevitable in an informal debate setting.

I must admit that there was only one time when your arguments really got to me (and made me angry) and that was the Wiccans fighting the V.A. because that is something very personal to me.


Actually, the way I presented my case in the "VA" issue was that of the beaurocracy not giving a damn.  And that is true, with the VA and every other beaurocratic agency in the US Government.  However, the VA is probably the worst of the lot.

Most people are lucky in that they have never had to deal with that monstrosity.  I have been fighting with it for over 13 years now.  Like every beaurocracy, it will never do anything without filling the proper forms, making sure every regulation is followed, and that every attempt is made to "pass the buck".  And it will only do something if it absolutely has to.

To give an idea, I first requested my Service Records last October.  After countless letters from both myself and my congressman, I finally got my packet, just over a year later.  And things are still up in the air, because the records were so badly copied that they are almost unreadable.  The Department Of The Army requested my records at the same time, and has gotten even less action then I have.

If there is one thing I do believe, it is that beaurocrats will do absolutely nothing without a gun (or "Congressional Interest Letter") pointed at their heads.  And even then, they will drag their feet as much as possible in carrying it out.  And it is this same "VA" that for 13 years has insisted that there is nothing wrong with me.  And the few times I did try to use it's services, it was always rejected.

I believe that the VA should have a number of different symbols for use on graves.  20, 30, even 100 if needed.  However, in this case it is not what I want, but what the beaurocrats are willing to do.  I can wish for them to actually get more interested in serving it's Veterans then in serving themselves and their jobs, but that is never going to happen either (and trust me, things are no different now then they were in 1999-2000, Presidents come and go but the Beaurocracy lives on forever just as it always has in the past).

This is why I so often make the choice to keep the Government as much out of my life as possible.  It is not a distrust for the government, or even which party may be in power at the time.  It is simply a personal understanding of the apathy of Beaurocrats.  I view both Republicans and Democrats as largely "figureheads" in government.  Because in reality, it is these beaurocrats that really run our Government.  And even if everybody in Congress was to suddenly die or leave office, things will continue as always.  Because the "staffers" in place now will continue to hand-feed what they want to the new Representatives and "decision makers".  The beaurocrats are imune to politics or political parties, and their only job is to ensure their job safety by looking important and doing nothing.

Actually, the way I presented my case in the "VA" issue was that of the beaurocracy not giving a damn.  And that is true, with the VA and every other beaurocratic agency in the US Government.  However, the VA is probably the worst of the lot.

Most people are lucky in that they have never had to deal with that monstrosity.  I have been fighting with it for over 13 years now.  Like every beaurocracy, it will never do anything without filling the proper forms, making sure every regulation is followed, and that every attempt is made to "pass the buck".  And it will only do something if it absolutely has to.

To give an idea, I first requested my Service Records last October.  After countless letters from both myself and my congressman, I finally got my packet, just over a year later.  And things are still up in the air, because the records were so badly copied that they are almost unreadable.  The Department Of The Army requested my records at the same time, and has gotten even less action then I have.

If there is one thing I do believe, it is that beaurocrats will do absolutely nothing without a gun (or "Congressional Interest Letter") pointed at their heads.  And even then, they will drag their feet as much as possible in carrying it out.  And it is this same "VA" that for 13 years has insisted that there is nothing wrong with me.  And the few times I did try to use it's services, it was always rejected.

I believe that the VA should have a number of different symbols for use on graves.  20, 30, even 100 if needed.  However, in this case it is not what I want, but what the beaurocrats are willing to do.  I can wish for them to actually get more interested in serving it's Veterans then in serving themselves and their jobs, but that is never going to happen either (and trust me, things are no different now then they were in 1999-2000, Presidents come and go but the Beaurocracy lives on forever just as it always has in the past).

This is why I so often make the choice to keep the Government as much out of my life as possible.  It is not a distrust for the government, or even which party may be in power at the time.  It is simply a personal understanding of the apathy of Beaurocrats.  I view both Republicans and Democrats as largely "figureheads" in government.  Because in reality, it is these beaurocrats that really run our Government.  And even if everybody in Congress was to suddenly die or leave office, things will continue as always.  Because the "staffers" in place now will continue to hand-feed what they want to the new Representatives and "decision makers".  The beaurocrats are imune to politics or political parties, and their only job is to ensure their job safety by looking important and doing nothing.
The librarian in me HAS to do this it's spelt 'bureaucracy' and 'bureaucrat'

IMO, debate is a two way street.  Even when some try to follow the "rules" of debate, they are met with a "You are wrong" comment by the dissenting party or simply called an idiot or some other derogatory name.  Plenty of people here give facts, figures, use logic, etc.  AFA the "left-wing rah rah club", I've rarely seen that.  Even those who have the same political leanings have disagreed on certain subjects/points.  Just because most of us lean towards the left doesn't necessarily mean we all sit around agreeing with each other and singing "Kumbayah".  I try not to let emotion get in the way of my arguments because when I do, I usually get lambasted or simply called a liar, but it's inevitable in an informal debate setting.



What if we WANT to sing "Kumbayah"?  :D ;D ;D





Actually, the way I presented my case in the "VA" issue was that of the beaurocracy not giving a damn.  And that is true, with the VA and every other beaurocratic agency in the US Government.  However, the VA is probably the worst of the lot.

Most people are lucky in that they have never had to deal with that monstrosity.  I have been fighting with it for over 13 years now.  Like every beaurocracy, it will never do anything without filling the proper forms, making sure every regulation is followed, and that every attempt is made to "pass the buck".  And it will only do something if it absolutely has to.

To give an idea, I first requested my Service Records last October.  After countless letters from both myself and my congressman, I finally got my packet, just over a year later.  And things are still up in the air, because the records were so badly copied that they are almost unreadable.  The Department Of The Army requested my records at the same time, and has gotten even less action then I have.

If there is one thing I do believe, it is that beaurocrats will do absolutely nothing without a gun (or "Congressional Interest Letter") pointed at their heads.  And even then, they will drag their feet as much as possible in carrying it out.  And it is this same "VA" that for 13 years has insisted that there is nothing wrong with me.  And the few times I did try to use it's services, it was always rejected.

I believe that the VA should have a number of different symbols for use on graves.  20, 30, even 100 if needed.  However, in this case it is not what I want, but what the beaurocrats are willing to do.  I can wish for them to actually get more interested in serving it's Veterans then in serving themselves and their jobs, but that is never going to happen either (and trust me, things are no different now then they were in 1999-2000, Presidents come and go but the Beaurocracy lives on forever just as it always has in the past).

This is why I so often make the choice to keep the Government as much out of my life as possible.  It is not a distrust for the government, or even which party may be in power at the time.  It is simply a personal understanding of the apathy of Beaurocrats.  I view both Republicans and Democrats as largely "figureheads" in government.  Because in reality, it is these beaurocrats that really run our Government.  And even if everybody in Congress was to suddenly die or leave office, things will continue as always.  Because the "staffers" in place now will continue to hand-feed what they want to the new Representatives and "decision makers".  The beaurocrats are imune to politics or political parties, and their only job is to ensure their job safety by looking important and doing nothing.



I do agree with you about the V.A. I fight them every year to have them pay for my annual mammogram-with Bernie Sanders help, they are going to pay-like they should.  However, what made me angry with your comments in that thread was NOT about the bureaucracy of the V.A. (I know all too well how they work-or don't work), it was when you said that Wiccan Rede is NOT a religious document-when EVERY Wiccan I know uses that as the basis of the way they practice. But, I don't want to get into that here-since this thread is about debating.


So let's all just sing "Kumbayah".  ;D ;D ;D  (Sorry, MamaK-couldn't resist.  ;) )




Cat

The librarian in me HAS to do this it's spelt 'bureaucracy' and 'bureaucrat'

Thank you!  BTW, I prefer "spelled" to the British "spelt," but it don't matter none.
;)

You will notice about the government and other bureaucracies:  They're only slow and ineffecient when they owe you cash or services.  When you owe them, they're lightning quick!

Government is there to serve corporations not people.  Thus, when government must serve people, it does so begrudgingly.  Veterans err in the belief that their service in the armed forces makes a difference.  It should...but it doesn't.  Even if you gave up your lower limbs in battle, once you're in the VA bureaucracy, the feds don't respect you any more than any old welfare recipient!
::)

there are other people who i see as being basically right wing but are more level-headed, like davey and rice cube, where we can actually engage in dialogue and find common ground.


You just called me level-headed.  :o

You just called me level-headed.  :o
;D

it's all relative. you dont do a lot of name-calling or sarcasm except in jest.

;D

it's all relative. you dont do a lot of name-calling or sarcasm except in jest.


Hippie.

;D

it's all relative. you dont do a lot of name-calling or sarcasm except in jest.


So you think you filthy Liberal druggie commie.

I like the one quote Charles Barkley had when he switched from Republican to Democrat, where he said that he was a Republican until they went insane.  I don't know how well he'll fare on the other side, since I now think both sides are a bit loony :D  Such is government...

Such is government...


Administrative anarchy there's nothing they can do to me!

Amazing, we enter a topic and down goes the tone.. and we're supposed to be the right wing front here.  ;D

babykillers! goose-stepping fascists!

babykillers! goose-stepping fascists!


Danke.

babykillers! goose-stepping fascists!


Wait, I thought the liberals were the babykillers.

Wait, I thought the liberals were the babykillers.
awwwww.  here we go!

Wait, I thought the liberals were the babykillers.


They are. If I was in charge, I'd arm all fetuses, so they had a chance against Liberals. I think the NRA should adopt that as their next charity cause 'Arm a fetus.'

HA!  That'd be one hell of a Caesarean. 

*KABOOM*  "Waaaah!"

They are. If I was in charge, I'd arm all fetuses, so they had a chance against Liberals. I think the NRA should adopt that as their next charity cause 'Arm a fetus.'
you might be on to something. i dont really feel that strongly about either issue but i'd put an "arm a fetus" on my car.

*goes to google "baby + guns"*

"try and abort me punk!"

http://www.nobleach.com/images/apr06/baby_with_guns.jpg

"try and abort me punk!"

http://www.nobleach.com/images/apr06/baby_with_guns.jpg


No no no, that's post partum.  You gotta find a picture of an ultrasound and then Photoshop an AK-47 into it.

HA!  That'd be one hell of a Caesarean. 

*KABOOM*  "Waaaah!"


"Comin' out biatch, ready or not."

No no no, that's post partum.  You gotta find a picture of an ultrasound and then Photoshop an AK-47 into it.
weirdly, somebody already has.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9527/fetusgun4ga.jpg

which just goes to show that EVERY LAST THING is now on the internet.

other picture's funnier, though, imo.

That's because that baby had a hat.  If the fetus had a hat it would be awesome.  And a bandolier.

That's because that baby had a hat.  If the fetus had a hat it would be awesome.  And a bandolier.


... and a rolled cigarette.

   The urge to pigeonhole others is often irresistible, so apologies in advance.  Closet Nihilist..?

   Seems someone has studied Nietzsche, averse as he was to the paradigm..

   I don't see a problem with it groove ;) on...

  Ugh...this is for Mushroom...
   

weirdly, somebody already has.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9527/fetusgun4ga.jpg

which just goes to show that EVERY LAST THING is now on the internet.

other picture's funnier, though, imo.


Who the hell took Jason's ultrasound picture and posted it online?

...and all this time I thought he was just giving us the finger.

...and all this time I thought he was just giving us the finger.


That could be his tail.

^ Interestingly, all chordate embryos have webbed extremities, gills and tails at some point, so maybe...

Who the hell took Jason's ultrasound picture and posted it online?



You must be so proud of the little angel.

Thank you!  BTW, I prefer "spelled" to the British "spelt," but it don't matter none.
;)

You will notice about the government and other bureaucracies:  They're only slow and ineffecient when they owe you cash or services.  When you owe them, they're lightning quick!

Government is there to serve corporations not people.  Thus, when government must serve people, it does so begrudgingly.  Veterans err in the belief that their service in the armed forces makes a difference.  It should...but it doesn't.  Even if you gave up your lower limbs in battle, once you're in the VA bureaucracy, the feds don't respect you any more than any old welfare recipient!
::)
Well I'm a British librarian so spelt is all you're going to get!  :P

'Tis the proper English!  Except for those random "u"'s flying into random words and such...hehehe.

british spelling = wrong. american spelling = right. if you disagree, you're a bad person.

british spelling = wrong. american spelling = right. if you disagree, you're a bad person.
You Americans are just damn lazy when it comes to spelling.

Not lazy, efficient :D

You Americans are just damn lazy when it comes to spelling.
you disagreed with me! you are now a bad person.

er, persoun, actually, i guess.

by the way, i'm coming to the uk again on the 20th. staying through, er, the third. weren't we talking about an inthe00s get-together over there in the land of misspelt wourds?

You Americans are just damn lazy when it comes to spelling.


I'm the best. I like things like color, flavor, labor etc. Yet I would say spelt.  ;D


you disagreed with me! you are now a bad person.

er, persoun, actually, i guess.

by the way, i'm coming to the uk again on the 20th. staying through, er, the third. weren't we talking about an inthe00s get-together over there in the land of misspelt wourds?


What time do you get in?
I'm gonna be.. at.. heathrow on the 20th. You can at least not be a total jerk and hang out for the day.

Wait, I thought the liberals were the babykillers.

Every fetus aborted is a potential soldier who could go kill other people's babies!

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya


Come on everyone, you know the words.




Cat

I do not refer to Mushroom here, but the Right in this country has been proven wrong on every front.  They've proven time and again they're all about greed.  They cannot afford cold logic.  They need fear and ridicule to keep their schemes going!


I'd say amen to that.

you disagreed with me! you are now a bad person.

er, persoun, actually, i guess.

by the way, i'm coming to the uk again on the 20th. staying through, er, the third. weren't we talking about an inthe00s get-together over there in the land of misspelt wourds?
Ask Davey he was going to arange it all!  ;D Mind you look how he left Karen high and dry, it doesn't look good............

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya


Come on everyone, you know the words.




Cat
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.

Sorry, I know I'm a little off key :-\\

   The urge to pigeonhole others is often irresistible, so apologies in advance.  Closet Nihilist..?

   Seems someone has studied Nietzsche, averse as he was to the paradigm..

   I don't see a problem with it groove ;) on...

   Ugh...this is for Mushroom...
   

Actually, I am one of the most optomistic people in the world.  And ironically, I am also one of the most cynical.  I do not look at a map and see areas of "Red" and "Blue", but various shades of grey.  And I see the same thing in people.

And I see a lot of that grey in myself.  And it really ticks me off when I see others try to force people into whatever shade of "Red" or "Blue" they think those people should be in.  I actually find "absolute" thinking to be rather childish and immature.

With a large amount of prejudice thrown in.

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya


Come on everyone, you know the words.
Cat


Darn, and I went and had my hair cut a few months ago.  Although I am sure my tie-dye shirt is packed in one of my boxes somewhere.  Maybe afterwards we can break into some Peater, Paul & Mary songs.

As a Progressive Democrat having to deal with my Conservative Republican family debating is always tricky.  We do have rules though and they are as followed

1) No bloodshed

2) Derogatory remarks are permitted within reason

3) We end the debate with a mutual note of political or moral disgust  (Using the f-word during it is permitted)

Believe it or not the family comic strip is now Prickly City.  If you've ever seen it you'll know why.

Ask Davey he was going to arange it all!  ;D Mind you look how he left Karen high and dry, it doesn't look good............


You know better than to trust me with things that require thought. PPphhh... I was kinda busy at work, she was welcome to come out and pass me things.

As a Progressive Democrat having to deal with my Conservative Republican family debating is always tricky.  We do have rules though and they are as followed

1) No bloodshed

2) Derogatory remarks are permitted within reason

3) We end the debate with a mutual note of political or moral disgust  (Using the f-word during it is permitted)

Believe it or not the family comic strip is now Prickly City.  If you've ever seen it you'll know why.
Try being married to a Republican as a Democrat.....OUR rules are:

1) No talking about politics
2) Politics are not allowed
3) Any subject, other than politics, may be discussed ;D

Try being married to a Republican as a Democrat.....OUR rules are:

1) No talking about politics
2) Politics are not allowed
3) Any subject, other than politics, may be discussed ;D


Is this to keep the peace or to keep political affiliations? :)

Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.

Sorry, I know I'm a little off key :-\\

We had to do literal Kumbaya sing-alongs at the Waldorf school.  Even in grade school we rolled our eyes, "Oh god, not this again!" 
::)
Then at recess we'd mock our teachers singing Kumbaya and laugh like all get out!  We had no reference that it was a joke in popular culture.  We had to sing all kinds of other hymns and spirituals, as you will in the very ecumenical Waldorf education system, but we zeroed in on Kumbaya for special ridicule.  Kids ain't stupid!

Ask a dozen folklorists where "Kumbaya" originates, get a dozen different answers.  General consensus is that "Kumbaya" is pidgin contraction for "come by here," an entreatment for God to manifest Himself for salvation of sinners, and the song's roots are African-American spiritual tradition--possibly originating on the coastal islands of South Carolina, as suggested by dialect.  Some credit Rev. Marvin V. Frey for the song we know as "Kumbaya," which was published in the late 1930s.  However, the provenance of "Kumbaya" belongs to the shadows of antiquity.  But why is it mocked? Why is used particularly to mock liberals?  My guess is this: It's a simple three chord song with simple lyrics.  It became a handy sing-along for any camp counselor, church youth group leader, or Peace Corps volunteer with a guitar.  But who the heck knew what "Kumbaya" meant?  Reverence without meaning becomes silliness.  So it got played out.  Eventually, every summer camper and Peace Corps volunteer rolled his eyes, "Oh god, not this again!"
;D

Is this to keep the peace or to keep political affiliations? :)


R, D, G, and L, simultaneously, from all four corners of the table: "YES!"

R, D, G, and L, simultaneously, from all four corners of the table: "YES!"


WOW!!  It's very rare you get that kind of agreement. :)

R, D, G, and L, simultaneously, from all four corners of the table: "YES!"

M-I-C, K-E-Y, M-O-U-S-E!

Is this to keep the peace or to keep political affiliations? :)
Both and neither :D