Okay, from what I read, he was performing at the Laugh Factory, and some guys started heckling him. Instead of just giving it right back to them, he veers from the act, and unleashes the most terrible tirade that involves the "N" word and telling the guys that 50 years ago they'd be hanging upside down from trees. It's on the CNN website, but they don't have the actual video from it. However (because I like my gossip), the TMZ website has the video posted, although it's really fuzzy. It might just be my player though. But yeah, if you have a strong stomach, check it out and leave your thoughts on it.

http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/kramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape/#comments

That's horrible!  I can't view the clip from work.  Is this the "actual" Kramer or the guy that played him on the show?

That's horrible!  I can't view the clip from work.  Is this the "actual" Kramer or the guy that played him on the show?


Nah. It was Michael Richards. I just put Kramer because I know a lot of people only know him as that. I finally got the video less fuzzy, so I managed to watch the rest. The first half was him insulting the guys and then the next half was all those guys (and a bunch of other people) getting ready to leave. One of the guys called him a "cracker-ass" while they were leaving, which they probably shouldn't have done, but I can understand why they were mad enough to say that.

Seinfeld should beat him with a shoe.  And then make him watch Elaine dance. 





What an asshead.

Seinfeld should beat him with a shoe.  And then make him watch Elaine dance. 





What an asshead.


I was thinking of some naughtier words...but yeah.

Wave goodbye to what was left of your career, bastard!  http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/01/alienfinger.gif

hmm. that's... odd.

some folks, when they start complaining about "political correctness," i wonder if in the back of their minds they wish they could launch into tirades like this without fear of recrimination. not that i'm pro-political correctness but some people seem to really be attracted to racial slurs. because that line of social proscription is there they feel a compulsion to cross it. notice how after he belts out the "n" word a bunch of time he sarcastically talks about how "shocking" it is, as though he thought he were speaking truth to power or something.

i wonder who he voted for in the last election.

what a wacko! :D



although, now that I think about it....of course, what he said was totally wrong, however, I have been in certain situations where people were really pissing me off...and I just wanted to yell out the most extreme and offensive things toward them...nevertheless, I have always bit my tongue. :P

One of the words of wisdom from my long life that I will impart is you should always divorce the artist from the art.  There have been, are, and always will be people who are extremely good at what they do, but that doesn't make them good people.  It is not always easy to do because when you take a close look some can be truly objectionable. 

i totally agree. mel is a jerk, for instance, but let's face it -- he's a good actor. bruce willis is someone else who i tend to like his movies, but just about every interview i've read with him he comes across as a really annoying person.

One of the words of wisdom from my long life that I will impart is you should always divorce the artist from the art.  There have been, are, and always will be people who are extremely good at what they do, but that doesn't make them good people.  It is not always easy to do because when you take a close look some can be truly objectionable. 


Amen. There are a buttload of examples, none of which I have time to post right now, but Tia has them covered. ;D

I must say I've never been a fan of Michael Richards or of the whole "Seinfeld" phenomenon. I thought the show itself was pretty lame and overblown...much like "Friends".

I must say I've never been a fan of Michael Richards or of the whole "Seinfeld" phenomenon. I thought the show itself was pretty lame and overblown...much like "Friends".



I with you on that. Everytime I would catch Seinfeld, I always found it to be totally stupid and I just could never understand why everyone would think it was the funniest thing in the world. The few times I caught Friends, it was at least a bit homorous-but never really got into it.



Cat

Why is that video quality so terrible?

Credible sources are reporting the story.  Apparently, it's all verified.  It sounded so much like a prank, like the joke story last month about Richard Moll (Bull from Nightcourt), that I was inclined to dismiss it. 

Richards might be pulling an Andy Kaufman here.  Then again, he might be on the wrong meds.  If the hecklers were not in on the joke, ala Andy Kaufman, I'm inclined to believe Richards was employing a bad-taste shock-comedy technique.  Either way, he should not have uttered those words.  No good can come from this. 
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/cussing.gif

And there is something fishy about this whole story.

Richards might be pulling an Andy Kaufman here.  Then again, he might be on the wrong meds. 


What do you mean, he might be on the wrong meds?  I wasn't aware that behaving in this manner was indicative of a mental illness that requires medication.

Why is that video quality so terrible?


I figured out that for the video, you have to set the preferences. Right above the play and stop buttons, there is a link for preferences. If you have broadband internet, you have to set it to that. If not, you have to set it lower. That clears up the video.

What do you mean, he might be on the wrong meds?  I wasn't aware that behaving in this manner was indicative of a mental illness that requires medication.
well, tourettes, for instance. schizophrenia can lead to outbursts of deliberately shocking language. ditto manic depression. there's actually quite a few...

well, tourettes, for instance. schizophrenia can lead to outbursts of deliberately shocking language. ditto manic depression. there's actually quite a few...



I know about that.  I was asking Max what made him think that Michael Richards HAD any of those illnesses.  It seemed out of left field to say that he was either off meds or not on the proper ones.

Newman...it was Newman's fault.

well, tourettes, for instance. schizophrenia can lead to outbursts of deliberately shocking language. ditto manic depression. there's actually quite a few...

I said that for levity.  For full disclosure, I take meds, and I know perfectly well side effects of psychotrophic medications can include a short fuse and an explosive temper.  If that's the case, you want to adjust the dose or try a different medication.  

Who can say for sure what's going on with Richards?  Some of these actors who are really good at playing weirdos really are weird--and not always for the better!

Some people around here seem to enjoy huffiness for the sake of huffiness!
::)

Some people around here seem to enjoy huffiness for the sake of huffiness!
::)
harrumph! >:(

Until ten minutes ago, I had never seen a career snuff film, nor had even thought about what one would look like.....

Jessica and Cat gets points for mentioning how overblown Seinfeld was. Ditto their comments.

I can't see intentionally scripting a racial joke where a few audience members would be in on it and heckle you on purpose just so you could throw out some n-duds in a Carlos Mencia on cheap meth type-fashion. The probability of something like that going horribly wrong is close to 100%. Even if that's what this started out as, which is extremely doubtful, it ended up as bad as it looked. At least no one jumped up on stage and beat him into a bloody mess (this comedy show was in Los Angeles, right?)

I would like to see the whole show to really say if he done something wrong or not. The guy heckling him was egging him on. If you are gonna heckle someone be prepared for the heckle back.  I've been to comedy clubs where audience members have 'egged' the comedians on, like they want to start a fight or something. If you don't like what is being said, get up and walk out, simple as that.

I would like to see the whole show to really say if he done something wrong or not. The guy heckling him was egging him on. If you are gonna heckle someone be prepared for the heckle back.  I've been to comedy clubs where audience members have 'egged' the comedians on, like they want to start a fight or something. If you don't like what is being said, get up and walk out, simple as that.


They did walk out...because he stopped being funny.

Nah. It was Michael Richards. I just put Kramer because I know a lot of people only know him as that. I finally got the video less fuzzy, so I managed to watch the rest. The first half was him insulting the guys and then the next half was all those guys (and a bunch of other people) getting ready to leave. One of the guys called him a "cracker-ass" while they were leaving, which they probably shouldn't have done, but I can understand why they were mad enough to say that.


the funny thing is that the word cracker was created by upper class whites putting down lower class whites. It referred to how those lower class whites would sit on the porches, hang out, and do nothing all day. So, it's really a socioeconomic term (e.g. low-class) rather than a racial term.

I'm sick to my stomach with this as is Jerry Seinfeld.

They did walk out...because he stopped being funny.


They walked out after how long? I watched the clip as well over at TMZ. I also heard laughing in the background. There were people who did find it funny. I think a few started walking out for fear of fight other then  him not being funny.

They walked out after how long? I watched the clip as well over at TMZ. I also heard laughing in the background. There were people who did find it funny. I think a few started walking out for fear of fight other then  him not being funny.


You can clearly hear a few audience members shout down Michael Richards and tell him that he was inappropriate, as well as the people leaving. 

I would like to see the whole show to really say if he done something wrong or not. The guy heckling him was egging him on. If you are gonna heckle someone be prepared for the heckle back.  I've been to comedy clubs where audience members have 'egged' the comedians on, like they want to start a fight or something. If you don't like what is being said, get up and walk out, simple as that.



What the f.c.u.k? No amount of heckling deserves that tirade nor any justification for such a tirade.

Wow... People are even laughing at it!

I would like to see the whole show to really say if he done something wrong or not. The guy heckling him was egging him on. If you are gonna heckle someone be prepared for the heckle back.  I've been to comedy clubs where audience members have 'egged' the comedians on, like they want to start a fight or something. If you don't like what is being said, get up and walk out, simple as that.


There's a fine line between heckling someone until they trade barbs back and just being an out and out jerk. He crossed that line, no matter if the guys were being asses at first or not. How can you stand up on stage and say that fifty years ago they'd be strung out on a tree and with a fork up their ass and consider it comedic barbs? If he thought that it would be funny, he was sorely mistaken and he needs to rethink his routine.


the funny thing is that the word cracker was created by upper class whites putting down lower class whites. It referred to how those lower class whites would sit on the porches, hang out, and do nothing all day. So, it's really a socioeconomic term (e.g. low-class) rather than a racial term.

I'm sick to my stomach with this as is Jerry Seinfeld.


I find it amusing that the upper class whites have a derogatory name for everyone who is "beneath them". I won't list the names here, but there are a ton of them.

Wow... People are even laughing at it!


I think they laughed at it at first because they thought it was a joke, and then it became apparent that it was not a joke. 

I find it amusing that the upper class whites have a derogatory name for everyone who is "beneath them". I won't list the names here, but there are a ton of them.


I got to hand to them, though. It's like they have some mental thesaurus. They have a name for everyone and every situation.

What the f.c.u.k? No amount of heckling deserves that tirade nor any justification for such a tirade.



I didn't say it was justified. I'm wondering why they made such a big deal out of this, when its happened before, but with other races involved.

You can clearly hear a few audience members shout down Michael Richards and tell him that he was inappropriate, as well as the people leaving. 

What I "heard" was the same guy who heckled him , say it was inappropriate. But I'm not gonna argue about this, theres no need to rumple mine , yours, or anyones else feathers over something, that we weren't at, or witnessed ourselves.. Just read the TMZ board and let those people argue it out.  ;)

I'm waiting for tomorrows headlines to see what else we can be angry at.

How can you stand up on stage and say that fifty years ago they'd be strung out on a tree and with a fork up their ass and consider it comedic barbs?


If there is ever a Chris Rock roast, Lisa Lamponelli might be able to pull that off in a funny way. I don't think even she would go there.

However, this wasn't a roast of another comedian. Part of being a good comedian is knowing how to handle hecklers. Stopping your entire act to berate anyone means you have already failed, and resorting to what was on that video is a failure of Teton Dam proportions.

For those dialectically impaired here, please take note that he didn't "nigga", but "n*****". I've been over the distinction between the two elsewhere, and few at the time seemed to understand the differentiation, but even 'pimp' comics rarely use "n*****".

What happened on that video might have been funny 50 years ago in the deep south, but I just watched the video again. You could hear white audience members saying "oh my god" and the like. That's pretty bad.



I didn't say it was justified. I'm wondering why they made such a big deal out of this, when its happened before, but with other races involved.


While racial humor still exists, humor, by definition, has to be funny. Most comics who do a lot in the genre spread out their bashing to offend everyone equally. Most also don't stop a routine for 3 minutes to slam a heckler.

The fact that this guy is a world known celebrity doesn't help, but I imagine even if Joe Unknown said the same things and was captured on video this would still be getting a lot of coverage.

What it all boils down to is you can't call people the N word, especially, you can't call people the N word and imply in graphic terms they should be lynched.  Richards did and so he's only got himself to blame for the consequences.

I saw this on CNN HN this morning.  I'm surprised no one rushed the stage, and started to beat the hell out of him

What it all boils down to is you can't call people the N word, especially, you can't call people the N word and imply in graphic terms they should be lynched.  Richards did and so he's only got himself to blame for the consequences.


Well said, Max.

I'll chime in and say it looks like he had lost the ability to respond to hecklers.  Hard to defend his actions, but I'm sure when someone gets that frustrated they're just looking for the most hurtful thing they can throw out there.  Real unprofessional. 

We also don't have the video of the jerks before he responded.  I'm sure their comments weren't racially motivated at all right? right? That's one thing I always hate about these videos.  By the time someone starts recording something, you miss the context.  You see a police brutality video, and you never see the part where the person they're beating tried to stab them or push them to the edge in the first place.  Taken out of context, alot of things can be made to make a person look like a monster.

reminds me a little of the Mel Gibson thing two months ago. at least Mel can claim he's drunk.

Cosmo screwed up.  I think he's funny and I enjoy the moronic characters he plays, but there is no justification to use the "n-word" , there is no positive context for it except in discussing its origin in history I guess.  I was immediately reminded of a verse that says "Out of a person's mouth, comes that which fills their heart"  So whether he is or isn't a racist, I can't judge his heart but his speech was pretty clear.  I'm sure he'll be forgiven by many, but this will be hard to forget. It's very sad to see how easily and quickly the most harmful of statements can come from someone. just amazing.

He apologized last night on Letterman. Probably not the best place to do it because I don't think a lot of people in the audience knew what was happening (some were laughing until Jerry Seinfeld told them to stop because it wasn't funny). He looked really uncomfortable and it was REALLY painful to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UG6-t6glZ0

That was the most half-assed apology I've seen.  Hell, when the audience ain't buying it, it's bad.


Having Seinfeld on the show just made it look even more staged.....good buddy Jerry out there telling everyone how nice of a guy he is and how he's not mean or hateful or anything like that. 

I didn't buy it at all.

I've been hearing that the only reason he used the n-word was because the hecklers were calling him a cracker.  I don't think n***** and cracker even belong in the same category.  The n-word has a totally different connotation.  No one was every lynched for being a cracker, and cracker hasn't been used to belittle people because of their race for the last 200 years.  There was absolutely no justification for his tirade.  If he can't handle hecklers, he's in the wrong damn business.

The story changes from person to person. Some people said he became unglued because they were heckling him and some say that it was because they were just talking. Unfortunately the person with the cellphone cam didn't get that part.

I still stand by my view that no matter what they were doing, it didn't call for that tirade. That was just ridiculous. If they were pissing him off that bad, why didn't he just get the security/bouncers/what have you to toss them out? Then he could've made a joke about getting rid of his critics or something.

Then he could've made a joke about getting rid of his critics or something.
that woulda been a good context for a putin joke. which woulda still been in slightly bad taste, but you know, nothing like what happened.

I really don't understand how ANYBODY can use racial slurs and then say they are not a racist. Yeah, I have gotten upset a few times and I will call something almost every name in the book but NEVER would use a racist slur. They are not even in my vocabulary.


There was a time when I was married to my first husband that this black guy came on to me. I told him that I was married (which he knew) and he kept saying, "It's because I'm black, isn't it?" I said, "You could be purple but I am still married." I really wanted to tell him it was because he was an @$$hole-which had absolutely nothing to do with the color of his skin.




Cat

If he had left it at the n word I would have waited for the apology(not that watered down excuse he gave), and be done with it, but the crack about "if this was 50 years ago", well, there isn't any forgiveness or understanding with that.  That he cannot come back from.

Okay, from what I read, he was performing at the Laugh Factory, and some guys started heckling him. Instead of just giving it right back to them, he veers from the act, and unleashes the most terrible tirade that involves the "N" word and telling the guys that 50 years ago they'd be hanging upside down from trees. It's on the CNN website, but they don't have the actual video from it. However (because I like my gossip), the TMZ website has the video posted, although it's really fuzzy. It might just be my player though. But yeah, if you have a strong stomach, check it out and leave your thoughts on it.

http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/kramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape/#comments
There's a website about Seinfeld called seinfeld-fan.net or something like that.They're whining about not having enouygh posters.perhaps you can join and talk about that there,too!

One thing that stand-up comedians (and other public speakers) have had to deal with for centuries is "hecklers".  These are simply rude people who seem to enjoy being rude in public.

While Michael Richards is to blame for his reaction, I also see it that he was provoked.  I have never understood hecklers, and find that kind of behavior both rude and boorish.  And to be honest, his reaction is not all that out of line from what a lot of comedians do when heckled.  Don Rickles and Rodney Dangerfield were both notorious for "going over the deep end" when heckled.

And myself, I really do wonder what he was really trying to say.  "Shut up!  50 years ago we'd have had you upside down with a fork up your (bottom)"???  What does that really mean?  While I am sure that a lot of people are trying to make this into a KKK Lynching reference, I think it is just an insane rant.  I can't ever think of the Klan lynching people upside down, let alone shoving forks up peoples bottoms.  He did not say "lynched", he did not say "hanged", he did not even say "tree".  He just said "had you upside-down".  Maybe some obscure lore says that in the 1950's they took hecklers and turned them over and shoved silverware up their bottoms, I don't know.  I have never head of Klukkers doing anything like that.  But I do know that statement was made before he got racial, and most of the audience seemed to be laughing about it.

Even his "N-Word" rants, end with the "Ohhhh, Ohhhh, this shocks you.  It shocks you to see what's burried beneath you stupid (mothers)."  Even this can be taken several ways.  It may be a racist rant, but it may also be a poor attempt at "shock humor".

I am not passing any kind of judgement on this incident one way or another.  I think mostly what we saw was somebody who snapped because he was heckled on-stage.  And I for one have never supported hecklers.  I find it rude and offensive by itself, and distracts those who are there to watch (and enjoy) the performance.  And having been to the Laugh Factory many times, that is hardly the first time the "N-bomb" has been dropped on it's stage.  And it is not unusual for some comedians and public speakers to get totally unglued at hecklers.  I would love to know what they were saying to provoke such a tirade.

One thing that stand-up comedians (and other public speakers) have had to deal with for centuries is "hecklers".  These are simply rude people who seem to enjoy being rude in public.

While Michael Richards is to blame for his reaction, I also see it that he was provoked.  I have never understood hecklers, and find that kind of behavior both rude and boorish.  And to be honest, his reaction is not all that out of line from what a lot of comedians do when heckled.  Don Rickles and Rodney Dangerfield were both notorious for "going over the deep end" when heckled.

And myself, I really do wonder what he was really trying to say.  "Shut up!  50 years ago we'd have had you upside down with a fork up your (bottom)"???  What does that really mean?  While I am sure that a lot of people are trying to make this into a KKK Lynching reference, I think it is just an insane rant.  I can't ever think of the Klan lynching people upside down, let alone shoving forks up peoples bottoms.  He did not say "lynched", he did not say "hanged", he did not even say "tree".  He just said "had you upside-down".  Maybe some obscure lore says that in the 1950's they took hecklers and turned them over and shoved silverware up their bottoms, I don't know.  I have never head of Klukkers doing anything like that.  But I do know that statement was made before he got racial, and most of the audience seemed to be laughing about it.

Even his "N-Word" rants, end with the "Ohhhh, Ohhhh, this shocks you.  It shocks you to see what's burried beneath you stupid (mothers)."  Even this can be taken several ways.  It may be a racist rant, but it may also be a poor attempt at "shock humor".

I am not passing any kind of judgement on this incident one way or another.  I think mostly what we saw was somebody who snapped because he was heckled on-stage.  And I for one have never supported hecklers.  I find it rude and offensive by itself, and distracts those who are there to watch (and enjoy) the performance.  And having been to the Laugh Factory many times, that is hardly the first time the "N-bomb" has been dropped on it's stage.  And it is not unusual for some comedians and public speakers to get totally unglued at hecklers.  I would love to know what they were saying to provoke such a tirade.


Mushroom, many lynching victims were hung upside down. All lynching victims didn't end in the same demise. One victim was a pregnant woman (oh yes, women were lynched as well), particularly after rapes. Many were burned and some weren't. Others were indeed multilated.

No amount of heckling deserves this. You have your azzholes and then you have their apologists. Who's worse?

He should have said "Kiss my ass" and then whipped his pecker out.

Every one pretty much said all that can be said about Michael Richards idiotic tirade so I won't go there.
Instead I'll mention something that Paul Rodriguez, one of the owners of the club, said. " Freedom of
speech has limitations, now Michael Richards knows those limitations."

I am in no way condoning Richards idiocy, nor am I trying to justify it but if freedom of speech has a limit
then it is not a freedom.

Freedom of speech has consequences not limitations.

Every one pretty much said all that can be said about Michael Richards idiotic tirade so I won't go there.
Instead I'll mention something that Paul Rodriguez, one of the owners of the club, said. " Freedom of
speech has limitations, now Michael Richards knows those limitations."

I am in no way condoning Richards idiocy, nor am I trying to justify it but if freedom of speech has a limit
then it is not a freedom.

Freedom of speech has consequences not limitations.


Maybe he meant that once those tolerance limits are crossed then what happens is on you.

Every one pretty much said all that can be said about Michael Richards idiotic tirade so I won't go there.
Instead I'll mention something that Paul Rodriguez, one of the owners of the club, said. " Freedom of
speech has limitations, now Michael Richards knows those limitations."

I am in no way condoning Richards idiocy, nor am I trying to justify it but if freedom of speech has a limit
then it is not a freedom.

Freedom of speech has consequences not limitations.



I am a big advocate of the First Admendment. Yes, we do have freedom of speech but there is a limit. You can't cry "Fire" in a crowded theatre (unless there really is a fire). I believe ANY racial slur falls under this, too. But you are right, when you cross that line, there are consequences to pay-and I don't believe that just saying "I'm sorry" is all the consequenes should be-but it is a start.




Cat

Freedom of speech has consequences not limitations.


I agree fully with that, and this is what he is up against right now.

He said something wrong, and now he has to face the consequences.  But I still see this largely as a "so what" incident.  I never watched Seinfeld, and other then his character in UHF, I never cared much for Michael Richards or his humor.  To me, this is just another case of a former celebrity who let his mouth get away from him.

I agree fully with that, and this is what he is up against right now.

He said something wrong, and now he has to face the consequences.  But I still see this largely as a "so what" incident.  I never watched Seinfeld, and other then his character in UHF, I never cared much for Michael Richards or his humor.  To me, this is just another case of a former celebrity who let his mouth get away from him.


Having said that, I do agree with you.

I used to enjoy him on Seinfeld, and reruns are on at 11pm and last night when it came on, i would have normally watched and I couldn't watch it and it saddens me because i like the other characters and they make me laugh & I'm sure all the other cast members must be mortified at his behavior and realize that there will be an impact on them as well, which is too bad.

If those guys were calling Richards "cracker" or "honky" or something, Richards should have invited them on stage and given them the mike.  "Here, you got something to say?  Say it to everybody!  You be the comedian!"  My guess is those dudes would have chickened out.  At least something to that effect.  A comic skilled at stand-up develops methods to make the heckling backfire on the hecklers. 

A comic skilled at stand-up develops methods to make the heckling backfire on the hecklers. 


And that is a major part of the problem.

For all of his skill as an actor, Michael Richards actually has very little experience as a stand-up comedian.  Although he has been acting professionally for over 26 years, it was almost always on TV or in movies.  He has almost no experience appearing "unscripted and on his own" in front of a live audience.

I was shocked when I heard about the incident. I couldn't believe someone could say something like that. It was completely out of line and uncalled for. I understand that he was being heckled but you just don't say things like that, I don't care if you are being heckled. This is not 1956, this is 2006 and you can't make racist comments like that nowadays and except to get away with it.

I was especially shocked when I heard the comment about the fork being shoved up his rear-end. That was so rude and uncalled for. I never liked Seinfeld much or Michael Richards, I will admit and this has not helped my impression of him.

I do not agree with racism at all, but... I think some people get too offended about it. I'm not sure how these people took it, just thought I'd throw out that comment. :P

Mushroom, many lynching victims were hung upside down. All lynching victims didn't end in the same demise. One victim was a pregnant woman (oh yes, women were lynched as well), particularly after rapes. Many were burned and some weren't. Others were indeed multilated.

No amount of heckling deserves this. You have your azzholes and then you have their apologists. Who's worse?

In the days when you could get arrested for mailing a picture of a naked woman, you could send photo postcards of African-Americans hanging from tree limbs.  America didn't just tolerate lynchings, we celebrated them.  The atrocious acts inflicted upon innocent blacks by ruthless white mobs boggles the mind, and yet it's still within living memory.  Richards' lynching reference bothers me far more than his use of the N word. 

I wish all this heinous racism of the Jim Crow era (some of which STILL goes on) was made up by hysterical revisionist liberal PC historians.  Quite the opposite.  I'm still learning about racist policies--racist policies written into law--that I never read about in college or anywhere else.  The racism in violent apartheid America saturated every facet of the culture (it ain't just the South either).  It's hard for any one person nowadays to even know about three-quarters of it! 

You never heard of the KKK doing such-and-such?  There's a lot of atrocious things racists did that you or I have not heard about. 

Interesting thing.  I heard a black person call another black person a N----.  I don't agree with what Richards said.  The Lynching comment was absolutly uncalled for.  I just find it interesting that a few black people refer to themselves by this.

The Lynching comment was absolutly uncalled for.  I just find it interesting that a few black people refer to themselves by this.


I still do not see it as a "lynching comment".  In fact, the more and more I think about it, the more "Carlin-esque" it appears to me.  The phrase really does not make any sense, and is actually very typical of the nonsensical type of phrase that George Carlin is famous for.  And the fact that after he made it the audience laughed makes me think that they took it in the same way.

It was not until he dropped the N-bomb that they actually started to turn against him.  If he had let it go at that, probably nobody would have ever heard of the incident.  I actually wonder if he is a fan of George Carlin, because his tirade actually is very similar to a lot of George Carlin bits.  The whole "N-N-N, ohhh, that shocks you" is actually classic Carlin (who has done similar bits in his routine for years).

But the difference is that George is a very experienced stand-up comedian, and knows how to walk the line between "shocking the audience" and "offending the audience".

Carlin makes it sound hysterical though.  you're right he does know how to walk that fine line...  It still interest me though that black people can call each other the n-word.  Yet when anyone else does it they mentally or physically get the shhhe kicked out of them.  Is this a double standard or what? :-\\

Carlin makes it sound hysterical though.  you're right he does know how to walk that fine line...  It still interest me though that black people can call each other the n-word.  Yet when anyone else does it they mentally or physically get the shhhe kicked out of them.  Is this a double standard or what? :-\\


Oh give me a break.  We have had this conversation before.  Aside from the historically inflammatory use of the "N word"  what do you think happens when not of Italian descent calls an Italian American a gin*** or a w**?  What do you think happens when someone not of Irish descent calls an Irish American a Bog****** or a m***?  All heck breaks loose that's what, fights, bloody noses, the whole nine yards.  Those terms do not carry the weight of the "N word" but they are still fighting words, that is what the are classified as.  If you wonder why this word is especially inflammatory then you haven't been paying attention any attention.

If you wonder why this word is especially inflammatory then you haven't been paying attention any attention.


I think the point is more the double standard then anything else.

Myself, I have never abided by "double standards".  If a word is wrong, then it is wrong.  Period.  And I do not like to hear any kind of inflamatory hatefull words used.

I can't stand words like "The N Word", Chink, Spic, Wop, Sand Ninja, or any others that we hear.  And I do not care who says them either.  I consider the person saying them to be of low class, and contemptable.  If they are of a differant race, they are ignorant.  If they are of the same raace, they are enablers who thrive on persecution.  Either way, it turns my stomach and lowers my opinion of the person.

There is an idea going around that a lot of people in the Black community "embrace" the word themselves in order to minimize it's impact.  I say that is coprolite of the worst kind.  As a "Geek", I have embraced that word, and do not care who calls me by that name.  You can be a fellow geek, or a complete technophobe.  You can even say it to me in a hatefull manner and I will not care one little bit.  You can't claim to "embrace" something, only to forbid it's use by other people.  That is yet another double standard.

I think the point is more the double standard then anything else.

Myself, I have never abided by "double standards".  If a word is wrong, then it is wrong.  Period.  And I do not like to hear any kind of inflamatory hatefull words used.

I can't stand words like "The N Word", Chink, Spic, Wop, Sand Ninja, or any others that we hear.  And I do not care who says them either.  I consider the person saying them to be of low class, and contemptable.  If they are of a differant race, they are ignorant.  If they are of the same raace, they are enablers who thrive on persecution.  Either way, it turns my stomach and lowers my opinion of the person.

There is an idea going around that a lot of people in the Black community "embrace" the word themselves in order to minimize it's impact.  I say that is coprolite of the worst kind.  As a "Geek", I have embraced that word, and do not care who calls me by that name.  You can be a fellow geek, or a complete technophobe.  You can even say it to me in a hatefull manner and I will not care one little bit.  You can't claim to "embrace" something, only to forbid it's use by other people.  That is yet another double standard.


Exactly.  Thank you Mushroom.

The n-word is disgusting, no matter who is using it.  I don't care what mouth the word is coming out of....a white person's mouth or a black person's mouth.  Both people sound equally as uneducated and stupid.

Oh give me a break.  We have had this conversation before.  Aside from the historically inflammatory use of the "N word"  what do you think happens when not of Italian descent calls an Italian American a gin*** or a w**?  What do you think happens when someone not of Irish descent calls an Irish American a Bog****** or a m***?  All heck breaks loose that's what, fights, bloody noses, the whole nine yards.  Those terms do not carry the weight of the "N word" but they are still fighting words, that is what the are classified as.  If you wonder why this word is especially inflammatory then you haven't been paying attention any attention.



If Richards had said, "Shut up you dumb micks, go eat another potato," it would have been a accepted as a joke, but maybe an Irish-American heritage group would have filed a grievance.  If he said that at O'Malley's pub in South Boston, some ruffians might have kicked the crap out of him.

If Richards had said, "Why don't you WASP azzwholes go back to the Skull & Bones?  Boola boola! Boola boola!," applause would have been universal, especially from the Skull & Bones society!
::)

Response to the epithet is commensurate with how vulnerable the group is.  The "N" word is the most taboo word in American English today for deep and powerful reasons.

I heard it on youtube, and was quite surprised.  Just because your angry and upset, about someone heckling you, doesn't give you the right to say the N word.

His career is pretty much toast at this point.

I heard it on youtube, and was quite surprised.  Just because your angry and upset, about someone heckling you, doesn't give you the right to say the N word.

His career is pretty much toast at this point.

Richards has the "right" to say the N word...and the public has the "right" to not like him anymore.
:)

If Richards had said, "Shut up you dumb micks, go eat another potato," it would have been a accepted as a joke, but maybe an Irish-American heritage group would have filed a grievance.  If he said that at O'Malley's pub in South Boston, some ruffians might have kicked the crap out of him.

If Richards had said, "Why don't you WASP azzwholes go back to the Skull & Bones?  Boola boola! Boola boola!," applause would have been universal, especially from the Skull & Bones society!
::)

Response to the epithet is commensurate with how vulnerable the group is.  The "N" word is the most taboo word in American English today for deep and powerful reasons.



And it is amazing to me that people who believe themselves educated in American history don't get it.  I, for one, am tired of having to explain and explain again.  The "n word" set the standard for hate speech, and its continued  use by a small group in order to neutralize it within the community that it was used against as a cudgel, does not give license to those who who, up until the last few years, have been able to use the word to abuse, with impunity.

And it is amazing to me that people who believe themselves educated in American history don't get it.  I, for one, am tired of having to explain and explain again.  The "n word" set the standard for hate speech, and its continued  use by a small group in order to neutralize it within the community that it was used against as a cudgel, does not give license to those who who, up until the last few years, have been able to use the word to abuse, with impunity.


I doubt thats what spaceace was getting at.

I doubt thats what spaceace was getting at.


Correct.

I was born... the day they shot John Lennon dead...

I was born... the day they shot John Lennon dead...


Wasn't that in 1980? 

Wasn't that in 1980? 


Yesh.

But I was really born in 1991.

Yesh.

But I was really born in 1991.


You just wanted the subject changed. :)

Yesh.

But I was really born in 1991.


That makes you......pubescent  ::)

as midknightbeth once said, so vividly, meat still smells of the womb.

as midknightbeth once said, so vividly, meat still smells of the womb.


ouch!

as midknightbeth once said, so vividly, meat still smells of the womb.


She does have a way of putting things doesn't she? :)

She does have a way of putting things doesn't she? :)


Of course this is the same woman who calls people "Good For Nothing Crap-Sacks". ::)

Of course this is the same woman who calls people "Good For Nothing Crap-Sacks". ::)


diplomacy is not her forte  ;D

diplomacy is not her forte  ;D


She feels no need for it. ::)

I would say that this thread is dying.





Cat

it may be my fault.

I would say that this thread is dying.





Cat

Not as fast as Richards' stand-up gig!

Not as fast as Richards' stand-up gig!



No loss, he wasn't that great of a Comedian anyway. :)

He'll be forever rembered as Kramer, and that jerk from the stand up comedy club.....  ::)

He'll be forever rembered as Kramer, and that jerk from the stand up comedy club.....  ::)
it may end up in the other order, if ya know what i mean.

I've stayed out of this thread.  Might as well throw myself on the land mine, though.

Richards/Kramer?  You weren't funny.  But Lenny was.  And it's in his honor that I transcribe:


Are there any nwords here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any nwords here tonight?" I know there's one nword, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two nwords. And between those two nwords sits a kike. And there's another kike - that's two kikes and three nwords. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven nwords? I got seven nwords. Sold American. I pass with seven nwords, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop. Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness.

Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the nwords in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "nword nword nword word nword" to every nword he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "nword nword nword nword nword" 'til "nword" didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nword at school.

        - Lenny Bruce, from 40 years ago, somewhere in pre-pussified America

The fact that more than 40 years after Lenny Bruce did this routine, I only had to manually censor one word in Lenny's routine, should prove his point. 

Hell, even Mel Brooks, from Blazing Saddles, "The sheriff is *near*!" - another movie that couldn't be made today.

Both Mel and Lenny would prove my point:  Race relations haven't progressed in the past 40 years.  They've gone backwards.  Jesse Jackson and his counterparts in the RAHOWA crowd are both overjoyed by this development.  Rest of us?  Not so much.

so michael richards' tirade is jesse jackson's fault? not sure i follow your point.

lenny bruce was a comic genius and he was talking about the WORD, how it gets used.

michael richards is a standup fumbler and he was using the word out of hate. there's a chasm of difference.

Man... This topic's been discussed for a LONG time now!

Man... This topic's been discussed for a LONG time now!
race has been a problem in america since the country's inception. so yeah.

race has been a problem in america since the country's inception. so yeah.


HEY! Take your politics outta this here politics board!

Did you all hear?  Jesse Jackson wants to make the n-word illegal.  I was listening to the WLS am news (out of Chicago) and they mentioned it was in the paper. 

well THAT's a bit much. outlaw a word?

FOO BAR--

Michael Richards is nooooooooooooooo Lenny Bruce!!!!!

(Although "Seinfeld" would have been a much funnier show with Lenny Bruce as the nextdoor neighbor!)
;D


so michael richards' tirade is jesse jackson's fault? not sure i follow your point.

lenny bruce was a comic genius and he was talking about the WORD, how it gets used.

michael richards is a standup fumbler and he was using the word out of hate. there's a chasm of difference.

Lenny also took his lumps.  He was a First Amendment warrior.  If you said bad words on stage in 1960, you didn't answer to some Jesse Jackson, you answered to the judge---and the judge wasn't on your side!

FOO BAR--

Michael Richards is nooooooooooooooo Lenny Bruce!!!!!

(Although "Seinfeld" would have been a much funnier show with Lenny Bruce as the nextdoor neighbor!)
;D
Lenny also took his lumps.  He was a First Amendment warrior.  If you said bad words on stage in 1960, you didn't answer to some Jesse Jackson, you answered to the judge---and the judge wasn't on your side!


I started to respond to FOO BAR, but then I considered the point that anyone who cannot differentiate between Lenny Bruce and Michael Richards tirade just doesn't get it, and probably won't ever get it.

my new hero as of like 2 hours ago sounds off about the whole michael richards thing.

warning -- N-bomb dropped repeatedly! incredibly bad language!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rM9SfIFJkk

and then there's a response from another aussie fellow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnXhzeislwg

both i think are very interesting if you are willing to hear people carpet-bombing with the N-word. the second guy evokes the lenny bruce routine.

i can only deduce that australians LOVE to cuss. which is fair.

Did you all hear?  Jesse Jackson wants to make the n-word illegal.  I was listening to the WLS am news (out of Chicago) and they mentioned it was in the paper. 


MaxwellSmart, Danoota&Me: You missed the point of my post.  SM appears to have gotten it, even if I'm quoting her out of context.

I'll be as clear as I can:

Lenny's point was that race-baiters are a bigger problem than racists, because they perpetuate the greivances and keep the whole mess going.

And my point was that clever asshats like Jesse Jackson are a bigger problem than ignorant asshats like Richards.

Because in a world of Jesse Jacksons, there can be no Lenny Bruces. 

And also because in a world of Lenny Bruces, nobody would pay ignoramuses like Richards or Jackson one whit of attention.

I'm fine with both of the clowns being ignored, but Jesse's crowd isn't.  Because without people like Richards, Jackson would be out of a job. 

Lenny Bruce wanted a world where "you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nword at school."  Jackson doesn't.  His job depends on it.

race-baiters are a bigger problem than racists, because they perpetuate the greivances and keep the whole mess going.
i disagree with this in the most strenuous way possible. race baiters aren't who are perpetuating the grievances, the grievances are being perpetuated because they're valid grievances. implicit in your statement is the premise that racism no longer exists in the US, that it's all a chimera cooked up by jesse jackson to keep himself in the headlines. and i think a cursory examination of the culture in this country shows that's false, there's plenty of racism -- individual, group, institutional -- in america. and THAT"s why "race baiters" are complaining.

having said that, though, in the second clip i got above the dude theorizes that michael richards was actuallly trying to evoke the lenny bruce routine, and failing -- failing not only so that it wasn't funny, but failing so that nobody even knew what he was doing. hence the abortive whole "oh, it's so shocking" thing he tries to do.

it's actually a semi-convincing argument, that he's really guilty of nothing more than being an intensely bad comedian who spectacularly failed at being shocking. if it weren't for his comments about lynching, which i think someone else commented on this board are an order of magnitude worse than just dropping the n-bomb, i'd be inclined to think that's what happened. but with the lynching thing he seems like he's really feeling, invested in some brand of racist hatred on a visceral level. and THAT aint jesse jackson's fault!

The "race baiters" and "Jesse Jackson" provide cover for the vile racism still at large in this country.  "Class" has become a bigger question.  They deny they're racists because they like Condoleeza Rice and Clarence Thomas.  Other races and ethnic groups are just fine, as long as they live like suburban white Republicans. 

In order for the N-word not hurt African-American children, the social and economic barriers between Black America and White America would have to be removed. 

Of course, a guys like Bill O'Reilly and Neil Boortz will tell you racism is over and there are no barriers.  The problem is Blacks listen to Jesse and Al, they have a victim complex, they drop out of school, they have kids out of wedlock, they have no work ethic, they would rather sell crack than work for a living, they act like pimps, b#tches, and ho's, they're not as smart as Whites or Asians, and they generally come from inferior genetic stock--except for basketball-playing abilities...
Other than that...Blacks would have no trouble succeeding in our free market economy, so long as their names are Bill Cosby, Thomas Sowell, Condi Rice, Clarence Thomas, and Ken Blackwell.
:D

Wait a sec...who are the "race baiters" again?

i disagree with this in the most strenuous way possible. race baiters aren't who are perpetuating the grievances, the grievances are being perpetuated because they're valid grievances.


I'm not being glib:  What grievances?  Specifically?

implicit in your statement is the premise that racism no longer exists in the US, that it's all a chimera cooked up by jesse jackson to keep himself in the headlines. and i think a cursory examination of the culture in this country shows that's false, there's plenty of racism -- individual, group, institutional -- in america. and THAT"s why "race baiters" are complaining.

With the exception of (i dunno, maybe 30-40%) pre-baby-boomers and (a smaller minority of) baby boomers who were brought up racist (and they're dying out), there's not a lot of racism out there.  Really.

There's plenty of classism, though.  But that's another thread.

Are you sure you're not confusing race (skin color) with socioeconomic class (behavior)? 

MaxwellSmart's post is a good example of confusing the two.  Suppose I'm hiring someone for a job that'll involve a lot of thinking and writing.  I don't discriminate against people who have brown skin, but I have to discriminate against people who can't spell.  So I'll hire a Colin Powell (or a Jesse Jackson!) before I hire someone whose resume looks like wut a  gangsta (or a txt spkr) wud rite.  But is Maxwell seriously suggesting that Colin Powell's name is responsible for his hirability?  Of course not:  It's his behavior, his upbringing, his education, and his experience.

The problem is that there's a correlation between poverty and brown skin (owing to real, honest-to-God racism that we all hear about).  There's a casuative relationship between poverty and poor education.  Unfortunately, there's a feedback relationship between poor education and poverty, and that cycle can't be broken by reducing the n-word to a harmless insult.

But the feedback loop that leads to the vicious circle of poverty is a function of class, not race.

In passing - Maxwell hits one nail squarely on the head:  There are white race-baiters too.  And they  know exactly what they're doing.  Just like Jackson and Sharpton, they're exploiting the fact that their respective followers can't tell the difference between correlation and causation, and they're no less dangerous.

I'm not being glib:  What grievances?  Specifically?
no need to apologize for being glib when you're pitching softballs.

"2. The treatment and tragedies of African-Americans

African-Americans, even today, over 30 years after the civil rights movement, are oppressed in many ways.

-African-Americans numbered about 34.2 million in 1997, making up 12.8 Percent of the total U.S. population, according to tabulations released by the Commerce Department's Census Bureau (Feb. 7, 2000)

-The income of 2.1 million African-American families (26 percent) was below the poverty level.

-Incidents of racial hate crime reported to the police, by bias motivation in 1998 was 4,468. The highest number was reported by African-Americans: 2,901.

-Between 1975 and 1997, African-Americans had the highest unemployment rate.

-African-Americans aged 12 and up are the most victimized group in America. 41.7 over 1,000 of them are victims of violent crimes, compared with whites (36.3 over 1,000). This does not include murder."

I'm not being glib:  What grievances?  Specifically?

With the exception of (i dunno, maybe 30-40%) pre-baby-boomers and (a smaller minority of) baby boomers who were brought up racist (and they're dying out), there's not a lot of racism out there.  Really.

There's plenty of classism, though.  But that's another thread.

Are you sure you're not confusing race (skin color) with socioeconomic class (behavior)? 

MaxwellSmart's post is a good example of confusing the two.  Suppose I'm hiring someone for a job that'll involve a lot of thinking and writing.  I don't discriminate against people who have brown skin, but I have to discriminate against people who can't spell.  So I'll hire a Colin Powell (or a Jesse Jackson!) before I hire someone whose resume looks like wut a   gangsta (or a txt spkr) wud rite.  But is Maxwell seriously suggesting that Colin Powell's name is responsible for his hirability?  Of course not:  It's his behavior, his upbringing, his education, and his experience.

The problem is that there's a correlation between poverty and brown skin (owing to real, honest-to-God racism that we all hear about).  There's a casuative relationship between poverty and poor education.  Unfortunately, there's a feedback relationship between poor education and poverty, and that cycle can't be broken by reducing the n-word to a harmless insult.

But the feedback loop that leads to the vicious circle of poverty is a function of class, not race.

In passing - Maxwell hits one nail squarely on the head:  There are white race-baiters too.  And they  know exactly what they're doing.  Just like Jackson and Sharpton, they're exploiting the fact that their respective followers can't tell the difference between correlation and causation, and they're no less dangerous.


Where do you live that you actually believe this sheesh? I suggest you do a lot more reading before you make such comments.  ???

1. There have been studies based on racial perception (e.g. name, address) and the behavior of it. It's been shown that a person with an "ethnic" name is less likely to be hired, despite education, experience, or other positive qualifications. In a personal note, you wouldn't believe the faces I get when I show up to a function after talking on the phone with someone. It's the "I didn't think you were...." face that I've seen since I was younger. One person even thought I was Russian, despite not previously giving any inclination of such a background.

2. Overt racism has since the 70s modified itself into covert racism. That's the notion that many unknowledgeable people don't understand. Just because there aren't "No Colored" signs out anymore, it doesn't mean that racism isn't around.

3. While class does play a part in the cycle of poverty, race does play a major role in it. To deny that it is, well, that's just ignorant since there is too much evidence to say it doesn't.

4. Race-baiting? Haha that's hilarious. Sure, they are some people that may use race as an excuse (let's see, whites have been doing it for decades, centuries, where's the outrage? Unbelievable), but to call someone a race-baiter because they won't let sleeping dogs lie when they shouldn't, well, let's just asinine. Many people want to pretend that all is well and remain in their little sheltered cocoons, because, well let's face it, they don't have to deal with it. So, they want to make those that do feel as if it's imaginary. Arrogance + Ignorance = lack of progress (a regression, if you will). America, as it stands, if regressing. The funniest thing is those that often say someone is race-baiting, gender-baiting, faith-baiting, or baiting their sexuality, are the same White Anglo-Saxon Protestant males that create the caste systems and the vicious cycles they produce.

5. Honestly, I can't understand how people still think that nothing's wrong. All is well. I wish that I could laugh it off, but honestly, it's sad.

I don't care what anyone says, this is funny:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfAFI0kutXk

With the exception of (i dunno, maybe 30-40%) pre-baby-boomers and (a smaller minority of) baby boomers who were brought up racist (and they're dying out), there's not a lot of racism out there.  Really.



As someone who was born in 1990, I'll say my generation is more strongly racist than Generation X...the racists born in the '80s and early '90s are just more covert about it, using the cover of a political correctness backlash. On the last day of school last year, the "senior prank" was to take down the letters from "Sport a Winning Attitude" on the gym bulletin board to make "Spot a N*g." That statement just shows ignorance.

I'm not being glib:  What grievances?  Specifically?


Are you sure you're not confusing race (skin color) with socioeconomic class (behavior)? 


The problem is that there's a correlation between poverty and brown skin (owing to real, honest-to-God racism that we all hear about).  There's a casuative relationship between poverty and poor education.  Unfortunately, there's a feedback relationship between poor education and poverty, and that cycle can't be broken by reducing the n-word to a harmless insult.

But the feedback loop that leads to the vicious circle of poverty is a function of class, not race.



As a member of the working class, though that is a misunderstood, term too many in the same situation would call themselves middle class, who is educated well beyond what is considered typical for my position in society,  I will say, unequivocally that my education still will not open doors to employment enjoyed by white women in the same situation.  I will also say that it gets old when people raise their eyebrows when then learn that "even though I'm black"  I grew up in a single family home with a lawn and a stay at home mom, can quote a bit of Shakespeare, and even "do my fractions"!!!!( I was actually asked this once when interviewing for a job in a bank)
The skin color trumps education because, to the majority of the people who hire for the jobs that would allow entrance in to the higher paying positions, skin color presupposes the educational level.

FOO BAR is right.  The bigger problem is "classism."  The ruling class use all kinds of divisive methods to keep the working classes from unifying.  For instance, they encourage people to gripe about people on the dole because "my" tax dollars go to pay for "their" laziness and irresponsibility.  The Right would love it if the analysis never went further than that, and for dittoheads, it doesn't. 

As Danoota and Tanya discuss in their posts, there are stereotypes regarding how African-Americans are expected to speak and behave.  For all the bellyaching the dittohead-types do about how they wish Blacks would "pull themselves up by their bootstraps, just like I hadda do!," and "stay in school and get an education, just like I hadda do!," and for chrissakes top acting like the Springer Show!  Ever see the look on a dittohead's face when he's toe to toe with a Black person who is more educated, more refined, and wealthier than he is?  Ha ha ha!  It's priceless!  Boy, the White Right sure loves Condi and Clarence, but when their own boss is Black.....
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/03/crying.gif

As someone who was born in 1990, I'll say my generation is more strongly racist than Generation X...the racists born in the '80s and early '90s are just more covert about it, using the cover of a political correctness backlash. On the last day of school last year, the "senior prank" was to take down the letters from "Sport a Winning Attitude" on the gym bulletin board to make "Spot a N*g." That statement just shows ignorance.


It has to be passed on generationally, older generations of the middle class and up were not outwardly racist like the students in your school but they did construct about a zillion social hurdles to prevent minority advancement and expand on the old boys network and such. They were "smarter" about it I guess.

be it tactical racism, or the brazen knuckledragging type shown at your school, it's all motivated by the same thing.

Seems student nowadays are becoming dumb, fearless, ego driven sociopaths...the Eric Cartman generation.

Where do you live that you actually believe this sheesh? I suggest you do a lot more reading before you make such comments.  ???

1. There have been studies based on racial perception (e.g. name, address) and the behavior of it.  *snip*

2. Overt racism has since the 70s modified itself into covert racism. *snip*

3. While class does play a part in the cycle of poverty, race does play a major role in it.  *snip*

4. Race-baiting? Haha that's hilarious. *snip* The funniest thing is those that often say someone is race-baiting, gender-baiting, faith-baiting, or baiting their sexuality, are the same White Anglo-Saxon Protestant males that create the caste systems and the vicious cycles they produce.

5. Honestly, I can't understand how people still think that nothing's wrong. *snip*


0: Where do I live?  As recently as 3 years ago, I live in an apartment complex from which I moved because it was overrun by gangs, mostly... Hah!  Hispanic!  Trash comes in all colors.  (And at this moment, I'm looking at you, K-Fed, Britney, Lindsay and Paris.)

1, 2, 3, 5 - which are all the same point:  How old are these people?  The only people I know who deny that trash comes in all colors are ancient.  You're absolutely right, but these people will be retired from the workforce within 20 years, and they'll all be dead within 50.  How many people under 30... hell, under 40, do you know with these views? 

If Lakweesha N!krumbe Fubo can spell, and Billy Bo Bob Bubba Smith can't, I'm hiring Lakweesha. 

4. Search/replace "White Anglo-Saxon Protestant" with "Negro" and see if it sounds any less racist.

I (a capitalist) am with MaxwellSmart (a - he can speak for himself, but he ain't no capitalist, and he'd be proud of it!) on this:  race may have started the ball rolling, but race ain't keeping the ball rolling. 

And now for something completely different, blacks vs whites is the battle from 50 years ago.  Recruiting GLBT folks is where capitalism's at.  They often don't breed, (and if they do, they adopt - so their offspring saves their medical provider $10-20K in pre-natal and pregnancy-related care, thereby lowering medical premiums), and because of their extra income (easy to come by when you can't breed by accident), they often have the time and money to spend on extra education and training long before they come to the job market.

/straight, single, and happy to stay that way
//first time my company offered benefits to LGBT couples, I thought "Hey, man, that's stuff that should be mine!"
///then I realized I owned stock in my employer, and that if my employer had access to 110% of the employer pool of my competitors, we'd all make a killing.
////slapped myself silly for my relapse into entitlement thinking, still think "diversity" for diversity's sake is a crock. 
/////but if that's what it takes to coerce the last few holdouts to hire from all the job pool, so be it.  If my employer can hire better folks than its competitors, we'll eventually blast them out of the market.


Seriously.  Imagine a gang of stereotypical Klansmen trying to make a hiring decision.  Now imagine a company full of people hiring the best people for the job.  You really think that in a free market (we'll ignore companies big enough to buy lobbyists and Congressmen) that the company that consistently hires the best person for the job isn't gonna eventually build a better mousetrap and blow the Klansmen outa the market everywhere except the Township of East Buttsecks, Arkansas (Population. 100, 90% of whom are over 80 years old), where demographics will take care of that little problem faster than even the most election-hungry Congressman? :)

Question for MaxwellSmart, who wrote:
The ruling class use all kinds of divisive methods to keep the working classes from unifying.

Serious question: Would you have a problem with calling it a "political class" instead of a "ruling class", and would you have a problem with including Jackson and Sharpton in the political class?  In that case, we'd agree.  You don't have to be the MPAA, RIAA, Time-Warner, or some Telco/Cableco to buy votes - sometimes you can do it with charisma alone. 

(And anticipating his obvious - and justifiable - question:  "No, I don't consider the CEOs of regulated industries to be capitalists.  If you buy the votes of politicians in order to further your business objectives, you might make money for your shareholders, but you're no capitalist.  Funding political campaigns in exchange for a favorable tax/legislative environment no more makes you a capitalist than walking into a garage turns you into a car.")

Ay-yi-yi!  It always comes back to "cars" when somebody is defending the ruling class.  No coincidence.  Perhaps the most powerful component of the American ruling class is the petroleum industry....and they sure push those personal cars and everything that goes with them, the greatest misalocation of resources in human history.

We all belong to a "political class."  The less money and property you own, the less the ruling class wants you to realize it.  Consequently, most of the people earning under 30 grand a year don't vote.  Works out nicely. 

Guys like Jackson, Sharpton, and Rangel are caught up in ruling class schemes, but they're not really part of it.  They're just hacks.  That's the hack political class!

Yes, on a modest salary you can invest in a 401K plan with Exxon-Mobil stock.  That only gives the delusion you and the Bush family have the same interests.  In reality, it doesn't mean jack squat and if you have to go out an hustle for a buck, you're no capitalist.
::)

We all belong to a "political class."  The less money and property you own, the less the ruling class wants you to realize it.  Consequently, most of the people earning under 30 grand a year don't vote.  Works out nicely. 

Guys like Jackson, Sharpton, and Rangel are caught up in ruling class schemes, but they're not really part of it.  They're just hacks.  That's the hack political class!


Good set of questions.  By "political class", I meant "political hack class", to use your verbiage.  Nomenklatura in Soviet verbiage.  "Career politician/lobbyist/media mouthpiece" in American English.  Includes every elected official, every lobbyist on K Street, and everyone in the media from Limbaugh to Louis Farrakhan.


Yes, on a modest salary you can invest in a 401K plan with Exxon-Mobil stock.  That only gives the delusion you and the Bush family have the same interests.  In reality, it doesn't mean jack squat and if you have to go out an hustle for a buck, you're no capitalist.


We're in agreement on some of those stocks. I've added many a dollar to my account from buying stocks favored by administrations both Republican and Democratic.  I wouldn't call any of those dollars earned in the sense of a capitalist.

(The least that can be said for XOM and the rest of the energy complex is that at least there's consumer demand for their products.  I'm proud of the bucks I've earned off of them.  The defense/surveillance/prison/mercenary companies are a whole 'nother ball game.  In those sectors, the only customer is the government, and it's not only growing its budget, it's also growing its... *cough* "customer base".  I've made as much off of them as I did off of the oil majors (sillly me, when I started using geopolitics to drive my strategy, I thought the mission was to take over an oil producer, not set up bases so as to be able to turn off the oil supply to competing nations such as China or Russia, so I thought that oil prices would go down or stay flat, not go up, hence my underweight position in energy producers... with 20/20 hindsight, silly me)... umm, I've made as much off the defense/surveillance/prison/mercenary companies as I have off the energy complex.  And those dollars are anything but the product of capitalism.  They do, however, pay for the beer.  And the wine.  And the single malt.)

^ This is why so many "true conservatives" slowly got disillusioned with Reaganista governance.  "Smaller government," they observed, "does not mean using government as get-rich-quick scheme for your buddies.  Smaller government means smaller government. Period." 

So, who gets the contract to build the 700 mile fence on the Mexican border, you know, the one that won't work?" Boeing.  It doesn't have to work.  Heck, they don't even have to end up building it.  Boeing will still pocket the loot.  Government contractors have been doing this same BS all over Iraq.  Bechtel, another one of my favorites, is being investigated for corruption in Boston's Big Dig debacle.

You've gotta "privatize," government big doesn't work.  So they said.  Turns out they "privatized" the waste, fraud, and systemic abuses to capitalize on them, they never abated these problems at all.

The "government doesn't work" argument wears a little thin when you see how well it works for the Ken Lays and Dick Cheneys amongst us!

::)

Seems student nowadays are becoming dumb, fearless, ego driven sociopaths...the Eric Cartman generation.


This is so true. Young middle class white guys from the suburbs tend to be very racist within this generation, and also very classist. Laissez faire attitudes are extremely common. Infact, their racism might actually come from classism, if that makes any sense.

Like Herman pointed out, its often disguised as rebellion against PCness.