http://youtube.com/watch?v=lARW9r5V29s

in case you haven't heard about this incident. ucla cops now randomly check people's papers in university libraries late at night. a student of iranian descent refused and was repeatedly tazered. tazers cause fleeting muscular paralysis and excruciating agony.

i bet a lot of people will view this as an acceptable use of force but i wasn't aware america was the kind of place where people got racially profiled and their paperwork randomly checked. just another way our freedoms are going down the drain.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lARW9r5V29s

in case you haven't heard about this incident. ucla cops now randomly check people's papers in university libraries late at night. a student of iranian descent refused and was repeatedly tazered. tazers cause fleeting muscular paralysis and excruciating agony.

i bet a lot of people will view this as an acceptable use of force but i wasn't aware america was the kind of place where people got racially profiled and their paperwork randomly checked. just another way our freedoms are going down the drain.


Even I! have a problem with this.

Smacks of "Ver are your papers!"

i bet a lot of people will view this as an acceptable use of force


What people?  People here?  God, I hope not.

I heard about that this morning.  Are you also aware that some organizations list tazers as a form of torture.  So yes, by some standard the U.S. does use methods of torture.  What gets me is how non-shalant some people are about this, but yet they complain about other countries.  About that Iranian student, this is probably only the beginning.

What people?  People here?  God, I hope not.
just wait. someone will post to talk about tazers don't really hurt, or if that dude had just done what he'd been told none of this woulda happened.

i also bet someone says the kid's faking it. sorta related to rush's saying michael j. fox was faking his parkinson's. to a lot of people suffering never looks real.

I think our little police department (with all of 3 officers) has at least one tazer (not too sure if all 3 of them have one). I'm not in favor of the use of them but some cops claim that it can be used to save their lives-ok, I can understand that. But to use one on a student in a library only because he refused to show his papers is just a total outrage!! I am really ashamed of what this country is becoming.




Cat

i'm not against tazers per se -- in the 60s and 70s they'd've probably taken a truncheon to this guy, like they did to war protestors -- but to tazer somebody repeatedly when they haven't really done anything except vociferously object to a flawed policy strikes me as pretty messed up. particularly when there's so much anti-muslim and anti-arab hatred in america right now, it seems really suspicious to me.

That video seriously pissed me off. My understanding of Tazers is that police generally use them on people who cannot be controlled without resorting to lethal force. From the news stories I have read so far, this guy dropped to the floor on his own. There were numerous rent-a-cops on scene. Why they didn't simply place him in handcuffs at that point is beyond me; there was more than enough manpower to handle the situation w/o a Tazer.

All of those cops should be fired. They're lucky they avoided a riot situation.

my guess is the guy was originally engaged in what they used to call passive resistance -- you go limp and make the cops do all the work. after the first couple of times getting tazered, though, i'm guessing he probably couldn't move. it sounds like they're hitting him for a pretty long time each time and a split second is enough to knock you off your feet.

Once again, this is the type of incident where I want to know all the facts before I pass a judgement.

At the beginning, all you hear is the person screaming "Don't touch me" over and over again.

I would like to know why the police were called, and what exactly happened beforehand before I make any kind of judgement on the possible use of excessive force.

Cops have to go through an extensive training course before they are allowed to carry tazers.  Part of that course involves them actually having a tazer used on them!  So more then anybody else, they know exactly what it feels like to be struck with one.

Because this is only a video clip, we see nothing that happened before the incident that may have caused things to spiral out of control.  It may be a case of police acting out of line.  Then again, it could also be a case of a student trying to "bully" his way in without his ID). 


in case you haven't heard about this incident. ucla cops now randomly check people's papers in university libraries late at night. a student of iranian descent refused and was repeatedly tazered. tazers cause fleeting muscular paralysis and excruciating agony.


OK, so this is supposedly a random ID check.  So why did he not simply show his ID?  Increasingly throughout the country, security is being increased in schools.  If he refuses to show his ID, then he needs to leave the library.  If he refuses to leave the library, then he needs to be forced out.

And if he resists being forced out, then he basically got what he deserved.  In fact, here is how the article starts at the Chicago Tribune:

Cop stuns student at UCLA library

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- A UCLA police officer shocked a student with a stun gun at a campus library after he refused repeated requests to show student identification and wouldn't leave, police said.

The student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, was shocked Tuesday about 11 p.m. as police did a routine check of student IDs at the University of California, Los Angeles, Powell Library.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0611170229nov17,1,2440897.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

It sounds to me like they were doing a random check of everybody in the library.  We have enough on-campus violence in this country, that I for one would like to see more checks like that.  Myself, I follow the simple rule that if a cop asks to see my ID, I show it to him.  This should be especially true on a College Campus.  Most people probably do not realize that the UCLA campus is in a "High Crime" area.  There have routinely been problems with assaults, burglaries, rapes, and drugs.  And students are told to carry their ID with them at all times.

So if you think it is fine for a student to refuse to show ID, then you should not make any complaints the next time there is a school shooting, or a rape or assault on a school campus.  If the campus police are not allowed to verify IDs, then you can't expect them to protect the students either.

You don't need a University ID to go into a public university and use its facilities.  They can restrict borrowing privledges, but not access.  It is a public conveyance, I have been to quite a few and never had a problem. 

Maybe this entire thing would have gone better if the student had simply watched this instructional video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXE-BuRqEQ8

Well, I just found out a little more about this incident.  CopWatchLA.ORG is a site dedicated to reporting of the use of excessive force by LAPD police officers.  And in their article, they stated the following:

At around 11:30 p.m., CSOs asked a male student using a computer in the back of the room to leave when he was unable to produce a BruinCard during a random check. The student did not exit the building immediately.

The CSOs left, returning minutes later, and police officers arrived to escort the student out. By this time the student had begun to walk toward the door with his backpack when an officer approached him and grabbed his arm, at which point the student told the officer to let him go. A second officer then approached the student as well.

Now a CSO is a Community Service Officer, a fancy name for an unarmed security guard.  And for years, UCLA has had a policy that requires a student ID to use school facilities after 11pm.

This student was part of a check by Security, and did not have an ID.  He was then asked to leave, and when he refused Campus Police were called.  Now when the police are called and somebody only starts to leave when they appear, of course they are going to want to know why.  If he had simply left when asked, none of this would have happened.

And during the entire encounter he was rude and abusive to the officers.  The more I read about this (and I have browsed at least 20 sites about this incident), the more it looks to me like a moron who was acting like a child.  He did not want to follow the rules (which are in place to protect the students).  And when he did not get his way, he decided to have a temper-tantrum.  If one of my sons acted this way, I would have turned him over my knee.  In fact, when they were around 3-5, it was not unusual to have one drop to the ground and start screaming.  That is typical child behavior.  But I would expect better of a 24 year old College Senior.

http://www.copwatchla.org/newsaction.cgi?article=9999999772248.992023928215

"OK, so this is supposedly a random ID check.  So why did he not simply show his ID?  Increasingly throughout the country, security is being increased in schools.  If he refuses to show his ID, then he needs to leave the library.  If he refuses to leave the library, then he needs to be forced out."

well, this is actually the part i find most distasteful. friend of mine teaches at a public high school and they now have random "lockdowns" -- students are essentially trapped in their classrooms and not allowed to leave. they're basically naked exertions of state power over the population, supposedly in the interest of protecting civilians, but then again that's the excuse creeping police states always use. if we're going to have policies like that in america we might as well trim up the constitution by striking the fourth amendment because it's not worth the paper it's written on if the police can just randomly shake down people who aren't doing anything wrong or the government can detain high school kids in their classrooms on general principles. ditto random checkpoints on the roads, which have been going on for years in the interest of nabbing drunk drivers but i think it's a total violation of our civil rights. it's funny about how conservatives are so big on "small government" but when it comes to the camel of police enforcement shoving its nose under our personal, private tents they don't seem to particularly mind.

anyway, i'm not sure whether the guy started off hamming it up to make a point or if he was genuinely in that much pain but after the third or fourth zap i don't doubt he was in agony. the counterargument that the police use it on themselves is a bit specious.... i have a feeling they go a lot easier on themselves than they do on "suspects" and in any case, having a friend do it is VERY different from having a hostile police officer do it in the process of violating your civil rights. much like waterboarding -- they say, well, they waterboard each other during military training so it must not really be that bad. but that's very different from being waterboarded by hostile forces who you suspect might actually kill you. then it becomes mock execution, a favored tactic of, among others, the vietcong and the japanese imperial army in wwii. this is not the sort of company america wants to keep.

hats off to the guy for not showing his ID and cowtowing to a BS policy. i like to think i'd've had that kind of guts but i doubt it, i probably would have given in. these sorts of policies only work in the long run if we don't resist them but it's tough to find the courage.

What people?  People here?  God, I hope not.
told ya. ;)

To me, it sounded like the guy was screaming in pain. Yes, he was asked for ID and then asked to leave. Yes, he refused both. And yes, he was on his way out when the boys in blue showed up. Who wouldn't be? I sure in the hell wouldn't want to tangle with those sadistic psychopaths that call themselves the Los Angeles Police Dept.

I'm not sure what happened. I'm not sure anyone will know what really happened. But you can't ignore the fact that he WAS tazed (repeatedly?), and he was in pain, and those stupid rent a cops were telling him to get up or threatening to taze him again. I would assume that after being tazed, one wouldn't be able to get up or walk for a bit. If they're so educated about tazers, they should know that and assist him in getting out of the building instead of dragging him and threatening him.

it's pretty obvious after tazering him four times they coulda just carried him out. they were having a good time, in my opinion.

Maybe this entire thing would have gone better if the student had simply watched this instructional video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXE-BuRqEQ8
i remember seeing this a few months ago and thinking chris rock should be ashamed of himself. makes me wonder what side of the hose he'd have wanted to be on if he'd been around during the civil rights movement. the subtext of this whole skit is that there is no such thing as racism and no such thing as misuse of police power. which is just plain not true on both counts.

but what's he care? he's filthy rich, i'm sure.

You don't need a University ID to go into a public university and use its facilities.  They can restrict borrowing privledges, but not access.  It is a public conveyance, I have been to quite a few and never had a problem. 


It seriously depends on the school. I had to show my ID just to get into the doors, though.

Show your ID and you won't have problems. He was a senior - it's not like he was a freshman. He was shooting some off things though regarding the Patriot Act as well as if he was really trying to get some attention.

Video shot from a student's camera phone captured the student yelling, "Here's your Patriot Act, here's your f***ing abuse of power," while he struggled with the officers.

Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

OK, I know it's not a laughing matter, but that triggered my perverse sense of humor, I couldn't help referencing Monty Python!

If I may be serious for a moment,
What exactly did the CSOs accomplish by Tazering that guy?

The incident had less to do with the young man's ethnicity than, perhaps, his psychiatric issues.  In that case, the incident had less to do with the man's psychiatric issues than it did with the rank incompetence endemic among American police and security personnel.  I do not think security personnel should be allowed to carry Tazers on routine patrol.  The man was not armed, thus I doubt they would have used lethal force against him.  The problem is, if they have non-lethal weapons handy, cops will use them rather than using intelligent and humane tactics.  This was not a riot.  This was one uncooperative library patron who got hysterical.  The way those CSOs handled the situation increased the risk of rioting.  What if witnesses exploded at the cops for their brutality?  What if they decided to physically interfere?  Then you'd get escalating violence, more back up, more citizen interference, and possibly a fatality.

The man was already subdued.  Cops are trained in restraing techniques.  The could have handcuffed the suspect, and if he continued to thrash about, the could have used restraints on his legs as well.  

I see a juvenile attitude among law enforcement that anybody who does not instantly bow down before them is a mortal enemy.  
---------------------
Many years ago, a family friend named Woody had some kind of a psychotic break.  He ended up in a confused and panicked state begging for asylum in a Brattleboro church.  Somebody called the cops.  Woody took a defensive posture and pointed his jack knife at his own throat.  These two incompetent rookies screamed "Drop the knife, drop the knife!" at Woody.  When he didn't, they open fire.  Woody died of gunshot wounds.  Witnesses stated and forensics confirmed the cops fired on Woody after the initial shots incapacitated him and he was on the floor.  When he was down, the cops also shot him in the back.

Woody was 37 years old.  He had no history of psychiatric problems, substance abuse, or aggressive or erratic behavior.  He was a calm and gentle person who loved children and animals.  I know it sounds cliche, but it's true.  Friends and family tried to piece together the preceding events.  Nobody had seen Woody in the 72 hours prior to his anomolous outburst and the cops murdering him.  There were rumors and speculation.  My guess is that Woody had an acute onset of a psychotic episode.  We will never know what precipitated the behavior because the police officers were trained to shoot first and ask questions later.  The cops killed a good man who was having a bad day.  

The apologists for the police emphasize that Woody had a knife.  He had a little jack knife and he was holding it to his own throat!  I thought they were supposed to train officers in tactical restraint.  If you're a cop, you just might encounter a crazed man wielding a knife.  Do you have to kill him?

If this Iranian guy had pulled out a knife, he might have gotten more than Tazered.  

Cops have to go through an extensive training course before they are allowed to carry tazers.  Part of that course involves them actually having a tazer used on them!  So more then anybody else, they know exactly what it feels like to be struck with one.


Sounds like police PR.  I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, but I wouldn't put full faith and credit in it either.  What constitutes "extensive" training? What does each state and each city require as far as Tazer training goes.  Do they all have to get Tazered?  Does it follow that just because an officer is hit with a Tazer in Tazer training that he will use restraint in the field?

Furthermore, even minor electric shocks can be lethal to people with certain medical conditions.  You don't have to be elderly to have heart problems.  A healthy-appearing 24-year-old can die of CVA if his wiring isn't quite right.  That's a pragmatic argument against Tazer use to subdue suspects.

It seriously depends on the school. I had to show my ID just to get into the doors, though.

Show your ID and you won't have problems. He was a senior - it's not like he was a freshman. He was shooting some off things though regarding the Patriot Act as well as if he was really trying to get some attention.
funny about that -- if the cops had been humane to him they'd've made him look like an ass for screaming about the patriot act. as it was, they made his point.

one does get the sense maybe the guy was a left-wing activist with an axe to grind and in a way the cops played into his hands by being exactly the jackbooted thugs he was accusing them of being. by contrast, take the cop who pulled over the dude listening to bill o'reilly and started screaming at him, who obviously said, dude, i could stomp your head in, but what would that prove? i choose not to.

honestly taking the moral high ground is a much more tenable position than indulging in the pleasurably excessive use of power and then trying desperately to justify it later. feels good when you're doing it but basically all you end up accomplishing is to undermine the society we live in.

funny about that -- if the cops had been humane to him they'd've made him look like an ass for screaming about the patriot act. as it was, they made his point.


If there are cops who do just that, I hope somebody records it and posts it on YouTube.  Come to think of it, I have seen it go both ways.  I have personally witnessed cops using brute force on some jerk who was just throwing a fit.  I have also witnessed cops apply time and patience and apprehend the same kind of suspect without incident.  It just seems like more often than not, the cops approach the suspect with anger and contempt, so that's what they get in return, and it escalates.  When I got arrested, the cops were really p!ssy and aggressive towards me.  In return, I was polite, calm, and cooperative and this quickly quelled the cops' hostility.  HOWEVER, I'm afraid if my skin was a different color and I was in another part of town, my tactics would have failed.

OK, so this is supposedly a random ID check.  So why did he not simply show his ID?  Increasingly throughout the country, security is being increased in schools.  If he refuses to show his ID, then he needs to leave the library.  If he refuses to leave the library, then he needs to be forced out.

And if he resists being forced out, then he basically got what he deserved. 


Are you kidding me? What a Draconian attitude you have, dude. Infact its completely disgusting and an affront to the freedoms and liberties Americans have come to(and should) expect as citizens of this country. You should be ashamed of yourself.



And during the entire encounter he was rude and abusive to the officers.  The more I read about this (and I have browsed at least 20 sites about this incident), the more it looks to me like a moron who was acting like a child.  He did not want to follow the rules (which are in place to protect the students).  And when he did not get his way, he decided to have a temper-tantrum.  If one of my sons acted this way, I would have turned him over my knee.  In fact, when they were around 3-5, it was not unusual to have one drop to the ground and start screaming.  That is typical child behavior.  But I would expect better of a 24 year old College Senior.


Yeah hes really immature for being upset at someone trying to force him to show his papers in a supposedly free country.

::)

Are you kidding me? What a Draconian attitude you have, dude.

I'm amused that you said this, in light of your recent revelation about expecting sex from a girl after buying them dinner and a movie.

The libraries at Georgia State operate like this : You cannot use the libraries unless you attend the school.  The only way to even get into the library is to swipe your GSU student ID card and walk through the turnstile.  If you don't have one, you don't get in.  Even if you attend the school, if you don't have the ID on you, you can't get in.  We don't have cops walking around checking IDs and papers. 

I'm amused that you said this, in light of your recent revelation about expecting sex from a girl after buying them dinner and a movie.



Oh man.

Are you kidding me? What a Draconian attitude you have, dude. Infact its completely disgusting and an affront to the freedoms and liberties Americans have come to(and should) expect as citizens of this country. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Yeah hes really immature for being upset at someone trying to force him to show his papers in a supposedly free country.


Welcome to life in the 21st Century.  Especially welcome to life in 21st century Los Angeles.

Boys and Girls, UCLA is in one of the worst crime areas of Los Angeles.  Students are encouraged to stay in their dorms after nightfall, and to never travel in groups of less then 3.  There have been multiple shootings and stabbings on the campus, as well as several serial rapists.  The campus is also frequently prowled by gang members, including several skinhead gangs.

The rules about showing ID at night is put in place to protect the students.  Everybody knows about it, it has been in place for years.  I would love to see what this idiot would do if he got a job at Boeing or Ratheon when he gets out.  You can not even enter the building without an ID card visible at all times.  And every employee is expected to report people inside the building at any time if that ID is not visible.

If he had acted that way at a work site, he would be escourted off of the property.  If he behaved like this, he would be arrested for tresspassing.  He would then get a nice pink slip telling him he has to look for a new job.  And the same practices are followed at companies like Honda, Toyota, and even Disney.  If anything, DIsney was the most draconian company I ever worked for.

College is supposed to train young adults how to prepare for the future.  Everything from Hospitals and Government offices, and almost all Corporate companies have increased security to different levels.  ID checks are becoming more common in the private sector, both because of workplace shootings, and the fear of "corporate espionage".

This juy just wants to live in a fantasy world, where there is no danger, and everybody loves everybody else.  Where angry ex-employyes do not go to their old workplace and blow people away with shotguns and knives.  And where known gang members do not prowl college campuses.

I bet he would wonder why he would get a ticket for driving without a license, simply because he saw no reason to bring it with him.


It seriously depends on the school. I had to show my ID just to get into the doors, though.

Show your ID and you won't have problems. He was a senior - it's not like he was a freshman. He was shooting some off things though regarding the Patriot Act as well as if he was really trying to get some attention.


Like I said, a temper-tantrum.  He was refused admittance by the CSO, and then refused to leave.  The CSO got the Campus Poliece, and he continued to not follow orders.  He brought this all upon himself because he did not want to follow the rules.


i remember seeing this a few months ago and thinking chris rock should be ashamed of himself. makes me wonder what side of the hose he'd have wanted to be on if he'd been around during the civil rights movement. the subtext of this whole skit is that there is no such thing as racism and no such thing as misuse of police power. which is just plain not true on both counts.


No, the point was "you can stay out of trouble if you do not bring trouble on yourself."

Look, if you walk up to a big drunk guy and call him an arsehole, then you are asking to get stomped.  If you do the stupid things he talks about, then basically you are asking to be harassed.  However, if you simply do what you are told and act polite, then there is a 99.99% chance that nothing will happen.

As Chris Rock said, "Use Common Sense".  I am a white man, and the cops have even hastled me.  But I act polite to them, and have never had a problem.  However, I am sure that if I had acted like that kid at UCLA, they would have tazered my butt too.  And guess what, I would have deserved it.

Some people need to seriously wake up and smell the coffee.  Living in LA is not like living in Smallville Kansas.  And if people think it is OK to refuse to show ID when required, then those people need to seriously get a grip on reality.  This was not profiling, he was not singled out.  Everybody has to show it after 11pm.  Period.

I'm amused that you said this, in light of your recent revelation about expecting sex from a girl after buying them dinner and a movie.

Yeah, but he doesn't make her show him her I.D!
Did you really say that, Dude?
::)


Even I! have a problem with this.

Smacks of "Ver are your papers!"

It ist "Ver are your papers?"
As our government recognizes the only liberties is the the liberty of the rich to get richer at everybody else's expense, continually targets people of color for police harrassment, imposes domestic spying, and does everything in its power to widen the income gap as far as possible, you're going to need a fascist state.  Thus, a fascist state is what we've got.

In a fascist state, a dissenter has to pick his battles. A cop asking you for I.D. in a university library may trigger anger at the onerous authority imposed, but in itself is nothing so horrendous.  It is not worth throwing a fit and getting yourself arrested at that point.

Notice how quickly Mushroom thinks of Boeing and Raytheon as places where, of course, people go to work when they get out of college.  A tiny minority of college grads go to work for defense contractors.  Very few Americans will ever see the inside of a defense industry building, let alone work there, and yet that's the first reference to the world of work.  This is indicative of our militarized civilian culture.  Fascism.
There is no question of the rectitude of constant surveillance of citizens by law enforcement, or of the authoritarian strictures of defense contractor policies the inevitable way of life in the 21st century.  Again, this is a fascist mentality.

Don't question authority.  Don't question law enforcement.  Don't question corporate power.  Don't question the right of the rich to get richer at the expense of the rest of us.  Why is there high crime on the campus of UCLA?  Why is there high crime in the inner cities?  I have come to expect from the Right the kind of answer another conservative poster recently gave, Americans are "ungrateful" for their country.

If we allow to continue the middle class-destroying trend we've been following since Ronald Reagan got elected, we can expect more tightly-wound individuals losing it at the cops because they're sick of the constant surveillance and restrictions everywhere.  Personally, I don't see the cops as there to protect me.  I see the cops as there to protect the wealth and property of the upper classes.

I'm not willing to give up even ONE bit of freedom and liberty for security. Ben Franklin himself said those who are willing to deserve neither.

I'm willing to be more at risk in order to be free. I'd rather be free and have more of a chance something might happen, then live in a draconian society like you seem to advocate Mushroom, and have less of a chance of something happening. The price we pay as a society for freedom is that sometimes bad people are free to do bad things.


I'm amused that you said this, in light of your recent revelation about expecting sex from a girl after buying them dinner and a movie.


Yeah because my dating policies are TOTALLY the same thing as our freedoms and liberties. Wait they're not.

Also good way of putting words into my mouth. I said I expect it within the first FEW dates, not the first date. Infact I don't expect it on the first day(though it would be nice if thats what they wanted). I'm not being mean, its just the simple truth that I can't hold up my interest after several dates without some kind of action. And I'm not even talking about sex necessarily, even just making out, 2nd base etc. Other physical things besides it.

If shes the type of person who wouldn't do those things within the first few dates sometimes, then most likely we won't get along anyway. So it would be the responsible thing to do on my part, to end it.

I'm not willing to give up even ONE bit of freedom and liberty for security. Ben Franklin himself said those who are willing to deserve neither.

I'm willing to be more at risk in order to be free. I'd rather be free and have more of a chance something might happen, then live in a draconian society like you seem to advocate Mushroom, and have less of a chance of something happening. The price we pay as a society for freedom is that sometimes bad people are free to do bad things.

Yeah because my dating policies are TOTALLY the same thing as our freedoms and liberties. Wait they're not.

Also good way of putting words into my mouth. I said I expect it within the first FEW dates, not the first date. Infact I don't expect it on the first day(though it would be nice if thats what they wanted). I'm not being mean, its just the simple truth that I can't hold up my interest after several dates without some kind of action. And I'm not even talking about sex necessarily, even just making out, 2nd base etc. Other physical things besides it.

If shes the type of person who wouldn't do those things within the first few dates sometimes, then most likely we won't get along anyway. So it would be the responsible thing to do on my part, to end it.


We've been losing freedom fast because of our economic policies.  As our wealth distribution curve grows ever more extremely L-shaped, you have tens of millions and tens of millions more people who really don't have the right to pursue life, liberty, happiness, or property.  The Right does not want a Jeffersonian democracy.  They want fascism with a neo-aristocratic bent.  The right has successful used religion to establish an authoritarian meme.  They have produced volumes by the millions of pseudo-intellectual tomfoolery to mask their fascist intent as "liberty."  This ranges from Ayn Rand to Alan Greenspan to John Stossel to Milton Freedman (who is burning in hell at last).  For it to work, it requires an authoritarian mindset.  I see the authoritarian mindset in all self-proclaimed conservatives.  There's Ann Coulter for the idiots, and Thomas Friedman for the more intelligent ones.  Oh, you have to be gullible to subscribe to conservative philosophy.  Gullibility is indispensible!

As far as dating these days, it's rough going.  We're taught from day one to be selfish.  Thus, a lot of women are looking for a meal ticket, and the men pursuing them are looking for sex.  Equality?  Friendship?  That doesn't enter into it!

No, the point was "you can stay out of trouble if you do not bring trouble on yourself."

Look, if you walk up to a big drunk guy and call him an arsehole, then you are asking to get stomped.  If you do the stupid things he talks about, then basically you are asking to be harassed.  However, if you simply do what you are told and act polite, then there is a 99.99% chance that nothing will happen.

i think the likening of our currnt creeping police state with a "big drunk guy" is actually quite apt and instructive. thanks for that.

i think the likening of our currnt creeping police state with a "big drunk guy" is actually quite apt and instructive. thanks for that.


http://www.treehold.com/images/dubya.jpg
"big drunk guy"

If a cop asks to see my ID, I show it to them.  Is that wrong?  How difficult is it to hand the cop a piece of plastic and be done with it?  When you start ranting and screaming and throwing a fit, you're making the cops think there's more to what you're doing than just protesting handing him a piece of plastic.  He shouldn't have been tasered and the cops went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard, but so did he.  A simple "Here officer" and the whole thing could have been over in 5 seconds.

The issue of whether the US of A is turning into a police state is for a different topic, methinks, but I like how a response to the rest of his post was foregone, especially to the following points (not that I'm an expert, just going by what you guys are tossing around):

--that most college/university libraries and most buildings after-hours require university personnel (including faculty and students) to either show or swipe an ID card to gain access.  I went to the University of California at Berkeley, Duke University, and the University of Chicago.  There is no way anyone gets access into the library unless they either have a student or staff ID, or they are part of a scheduled tour.  Even if you're allowed inside as a guest you must wear a special pass.  Each university has a different policy regarding access to facilities, but I've named three that I have had experience with.  Now, if the library doesn't have the policy listed that random ID checks commence at 11 PM, then the student had a legitimate complaint, but he still should not have acted as he did.  Which leads me to...

--the fact that he DID in fact act as he did.  WTF was he thinking?  Gee, I'm in LA, I'm a minority that's been profiled, and I'm acting like a buttpirate in a college library in a town where the police are known to go "above and beyond" their "call of duty" (if you know what I mean).  I'm not saying that the police were right in what they did, but he certainly didn't help himself any, eh?  And then...

--what did he do before the police showed up that FORCED them to call the police in the first place?  Iranian or not, I was assume that the police needs a minimal reason to beat the holy hell out of someone, and that reason can't just be "because he's Iranian".

The police were wrong to use that much force, that is inarguable.  But the student is absolutely not without blame.


Dude = booty > personality.  So sad.
i had to go. plus ive gotten in debates with mushroom before, and it's a lot like arguing with my television.

i'm kinda indifferent as to whether the student was a jerk or not. there are lots of jerks in the world, but if the cops start getting this attitude like they can run around tasering people for basically walking on the grass in violation of a "don't walk on the grass" sign -- which is an infraction about on a level with what this student did -- then you or i could be getting the juice next. it's very much a question of creeping police state culture, america is obsessed with security, with the exercise of state violence and control, particularly and i think that's why we're seeing things like this.

^ I can see how what you're saying could happen in Bizarro World, but what we're talking about isn't grass, it's about a library at night during a time when students are studying alone and as such, you need to ensure the safety of those students.  Did the cops act excessively?  Yes!  You can't even argue that, all they had to do was cuff him and march him out.  Is the policy a bad one?  I don't think so.

it's reasonable to ask people for ID in a library, it's not reasonable to treat them like terrorists if they refuse.

i think we're basically agreeing, with a slight difference in emphasis.

it's reasonable to ask people for ID in a library, it's not reasonable to treat them like terrorists if they refuse.

i think we're basically agreeing, with a slight difference in emphasis.


Yeah, I think in effect we are agreeing that he was wrong not to show his ID and that the police were wrong in beating the crap out of him.  The stars have aligned.

As far as dating these days, it's rough going.  We're taught from day one to be selfish.  Thus, a lot of women are looking for a meal ticket, and the men pursuing them are looking for sex.  Equality?  Friendship?  That doesn't enter into it!
this is discouragingly, tragically quite true.

If a cop asks to see my ID, I show it to them.  Is that wrong?  How difficult is it to hand the cop a piece of plastic and be done with it?  When you start ranting and screaming and throwing a fit, you're making the cops think there's more to what you're doing than just protesting handing him a piece of plastic.  He shouldn't have been tasered and the cops went waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard, but so did he.  A simple "Here officer" and the whole thing could have been over in 5 seconds.


Exactly. He wanted a platform to give a show.

I was assume that the police needs a minimal reason to beat the holy hell out of someone

Say what?
;D

Dude = booty > personality.  So sad.


Its not sad, just preference.

As far as dating these days, it's rough going.  We're taught from day one to be selfish.  Thus, a lot of women are looking for a meal ticket, and the men pursuing them are looking for sex.  Equality?  Friendship?  That doesn't enter into it!



Oh please    ::)  This is the mantra of men and women who are continually going after those who are out of their league or continually pursuing someone who isn't interested, at the same time treating people who would like to date them in the same manner. 

Oh please    ::)  This is the mantra of men and women who are continually going after those who are out of their league or continually pursuing someone who isn't interested, at the same time treating people who would like to date them in the same manner. 
forget tasers and creeping police states. this is the conversation we should REALLY be having! somebody start a thread, i would but i'm on the way out the door.

forget tasers and creeping police states. this is the conversation we should REALLY be having! somebody start a thread, i would but i'm on the way out the door.


ditto  ;)

ditto  ;)
i feel the siren call of unattainable women who want to rifle through my wallet.

actually, i'm just not quite sure how to phase the thread... although i AM on the way out the door. course i have been for about 45 minutes now.

Oh please    ::)  This is the mantra of men and women who are continually going after those who are out of their league or continually pursuing someone who isn't interested, at the same time treating people who would like to date them in the same manner. 


I don't see how.

 
---------------------
Many years ago, a family friend named Woody had some kind of a psychotic break.  He ended up in a confused and panicked state begging for asylum in a Brattleboro church.  Somebody called the cops.  Woody took a defensive posture and pointed his jack knife at his own throat.  These two incompetent rookies screamed "Drop the knife, drop the knife!" at Woody.  When he didn't, they open fire.  Woody died of gunshot wounds.  Witnesses stated and forensics confirmed the cops fired on Woody after the initial shots incapacitated him and he was on the floor.  When he was down, the cops also shot him in the back.

Woody was 37 years old.  He had no history of psychiatric problems, substance abuse, or aggressive or erratic behavior.  He was a calm and gentle person who loved children and animals.  I know it sounds cliche, but it's true.  Friends and family tried to piece together the preceding events.  Nobody had seen Woody in the 72 hours prior to his anomolous outburst and the cops murdering him.  There were rumors and speculation.  My guess is that Woody had an acute onset of a psychotic episode.  We will never know what precipitated the behavior because the police officers were trained to shoot first and ask questions later.  The cops killed a good man who was having a bad day. 

The apologists for the police emphasize that Woody had a knife.  He had a little jack knife and he was holding it to his own throat!  I thought they were supposed to train officers in tactical restraint.  If you're a cop, you just might encounter a crazed man wielding a knife.  Do you have to kill him?

If this Iranian guy had pulled out a knife, he might have gotten more than Tazered. 



Are you talking about Robert Woodward? You knew him? Yeah, of course it was in the paper here. The family just settled with the town of Brattleboro on a wrongful death case. I'm sure $$$ will replace their loss.  ::)



Cat

Are you talking about Robert Woodward? You knew him? Yeah, of course it was in the paper here. The family just settled with the town of Brattleboro on a wrongful death case. I'm sure $$$ will replace their loss.  ::)



Cat

Yes, that's the man.  I only met him a couple of times, but he was in the same social circle as my sister and brother-in-law.  You still see the occasional justiceforwoody.org bumper sticker around here.  I don't know the details of the settlement since I've been incommunicado both my sister and her ex-husband.  I didn't like the way the cops protected those two thugs, but that's typical law enforcement behavior.  Those concerned also hounded Howard Dean, demanding he "do something about it," and got enraged when he didn't.  I suppose if Woody was a family member or a close friend, I might feel the same.  I wish Dean had intervened on "our" behalf, but he's also a politician with priorities, and I'm not sure how much he REALLY could have done.


Oh please    ::)  This is the mantra of men and women who are continually going after those who are out of their league or continually pursuing someone who isn't interested, at the same time treating people who would like to date them in the same manner. 

I know for certain there is truth in what you say...BUT there is also truth in what I say!  I've been on both sides of the "league" thing.  I lost a close friend a year ago because I really wasn't attracted to her, and I she had been trying to woo me romantically for years.  Finally, she just gave up and X-ed me out of her life completely.  I thought she was being unreasonable, but I knew how she felt.  I did the same thing to somebody else a few years before.  It's like that old J. Geils song, "Love Stinks."
'Nuff said.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/cwm10.gif

Yes, that's the man.  I only met him a couple of times, but he was in the same social circle as my sister and brother-in-law.  You still see the occasional justiceforwoody.org bumper sticker around here.  I don't know the details of the settlement since I've been incommunicado both my sister and her ex-husband.  I didn't like the way the cops protected those two thugs, but that's typical law enforcement behavior.  Those concerned also hounded Howard Dean, demanding he "do something about it," and got enraged when he didn't.  I suppose if Woody was a family member or a close friend, I might feel the same.  I wish Dean had intervened on "our" behalf, but he's also a politician with priorities, and I'm not sure how much he REALLY could have done.




This is a snippet from the Rutland Herald August 3, 2006:


BRATTLEBORO - The family of a distraught Bellows Falls man shot to death by police in a church nearly five years ago will receive $150,000 as part of a settlement with the town of Brattleboro to end a wrongful death civil lawsuit. The Brattleboro Select Board approved the settlement with the family of Robert Woodward late Tuesday night, closing the book on a tragedy that divided the community and on a civil lawsuit that has carried on in two courts for four years.


The rest of the article is in the archieves and you have to pay to get it (but since we subscribe, I don't know if we have to but I didn't bother trying).



Cat

Are you kidding me? What a Draconian attitude you have, dude. Infact its completely disgusting and an affront to the freedoms and liberties Americans have come to(and should) expect as citizens of this country. You should be ashamed of yourself.


But I'm sure the next time there is a school shooting, you'll be up in arms about gun control, right?

This is a snippet from the Rutland Herald August 3, 2006:


BRATTLEBORO - The family of a distraught Bellows Falls man shot to death by police in a church nearly five years ago will receive $150,000 as part of a settlement with the town of Brattleboro to end a wrongful death civil lawsuit. The Brattleboro Select Board approved the settlement with the family of Robert Woodward late Tuesday night, closing the book on a tragedy that divided the community and on a civil lawsuit that has carried on in two courts for four years.


The rest of the article is in the archieves and you have to pay to get it (but since we subscribe, I don't know if we have to but I didn't bother trying).



Cat

Mr. Woodward's death was entirely unnecessary.  150 grand is barely adequate for the injustice done, but it's better than nothing.  I would demand high punitive damages not so much to enrich the family of the victim, but to send a message to the government that putting Keystone Kops out on the beat is going to cost you dearly!

putting Keystone Kops out on the beat is going to cost you dearly!


By giving them an even smaller budget to work with?

But I'm sure the next time there is a school shooting, you'll be up in arms about gun control, right?

It took a half dozen horrendous school shootings, culminating with the Columbine bloodbath for this country's schools to get serious about bullying, and I still don't think they've learned their lesson.  Behavior we would not tolerate from a 35-year-old in the workplace we should not either tolerate from a 15-year-old in school.  

By giving them an even smaller budget to work with?

You know what I'm talking about.  You're just blowing smoke.

You know what I'm talking about.  You're just blowing smoke.


I know exactly what you're talking about, I'm just saying that if you reduce the budget even further then the likelyhood is that essential programs such as Police training could well suffer.

It took a half dozen horrendous school shootings, culminating with the Columbine bloodbath for this country's schools to get serious about bullying, and I still don't think they've learned their lesson.  Behavior we would not tolerate from a 35-year-old in the workplace we should not either tolerate from a 15-year-old in school. 


I agree entirely. The sort of behavior witnessed over the past decade resulting in numerous slayings in schools, colleges and workplaces is virulent and shouldn't be accepted as normal. But maybe you're not really getting my point. To stop gun crime in institutions, one method of prevention is a higher level of security, shown here by the guards asking to see a students I.D.

After reading further in to this topic.. I still believe the guards who shocked the guy with the Tazer were using excessive force and I would even go so far as to call it Sadistic torture. That being said, you're only setting yourself up by refusing to show I.D. How hard is it, all I do is reach in to my pocket and flip my wallet open, don't even need to take the card out.

I agree entirely. The sort of behavior witnessed over the past decade resulting in numerous slayings in schools, colleges and workplaces is virulent and shouldn't be accepted as normal. But maybe you're not really getting my point. To stop gun crime in institutions, one method of prevention is a higher level of security, shown here by the guards asking to see a students I.D.

After reading further in to this topic.. I still believe the guards who shocked the guy with the Tazer were using excessive force and I would even go so far as to call it Sadistic torture. That being said, you're only setting yourself up by refusing to show I.D. How hard is it, all I do is reach in to my pocket and flip my wallet open, don't even need to take the card out.

That's what I said.  The guy picked the wrong battle.

What I'ms saying is we don't accept bullying and harrassment in the workplace.  We should not accept it in our schools.  When I was growing up, hazing and bullying was viewed as a natural part of growing up, and the authorities sort of just looked the other way.  When the bullying got so bad the bullied student dropped out of school or committed suicide, that student was merely stigmatized as a weak kid who couldn't fit in.  Finally, a few bullied students stopped committing crimes against themselves and started committing crimes against others at their
schools--such as cold-blooded murder.  Only then did educators start to rethink the given social status of the school bully!

As far as I'm concerned you cannot reform a violent culture with surveillance and punishment alone.  The long-term solutions are the same old things Rush Limbaugh scoffs at--social justice and reduction in economic inequalities.

That's what I said.  The guy picked the wrong battle.

What I'ms saying is we don't accept bullying and harrassment in the workplace.  We should not accept it in our schools.  When I was growing up, hazing and bullying was viewed as a natural part of growing up, and the authorities sort of just looked the other way.  When the bullying got so bad the bullied student dropped out of school or committed suicide, that student was merely stigmatized as a weak kid who couldn't fit in.  Finally, a few bullied students stopped committing crimes against themselves and started committing crimes against others at their
schools--such as cold-blooded murder.  Only then did educators start to rethink the given social status of the school bully!

As far as I'm concerned you cannot reform a violent culture with surveillance and punishment alone.  The long-term solutions are the same old things Rush Limbaugh scoffs at--social justice and reduction in economic inequalities.




I think there is a thin line to tread with bullying in schools. On one hand, yeah, when it gets to the stage where you have a kid who's gonna commit suicide then you know something is wrong.. at the same time (and I don't want to sound cliched here but I will) kids are kids. At 10 years old, did I really understand the psychological effect of calling Tom Dawson 'A big stupid gaylord' no.. did I realise that pushing Chris Johnson down a muddy slope and then laughing at him would have him up at night in tears.. no.. I just thought it was funny.
If you police them too much then you'll kill their childhoods, if you don't enforce the rules enough you just leave the stove on boil.

I work in a high school.  (As a secretary.)  I am required to wear ID on a lanyard around my neck every day.  I don't have a problem with this.  (Well, I do because it's a heinous picture of me, but that's another story.)  Visitors are also required to obtain passes from the main office.  This is to protect the students from unwelcome guests in the school.  It also protects the faculty - we had a ring of purse snatchers going through our local schools posing as teachers and parents. 

We also have lockdowns on a regular basis, and "school shooting drills."  I don't have a problem with this either.  I am very much afraid of school shootings.  Do I think that my wearing ID will make a difference in the event of a shooting?  No.  If anyone is going to start shooting it's going to be a student, and if anything, my ID is going to make me a target.  But I wear it anyway.  It's not worth fighting over.  And it shouldn't have been worth fighting over to the guy in the library at UCLA either.

Now, do I think the police used excessive force?  Absolutely.  It's ridiculous.  The whole thing is ridiculous.  But I think the policies of checking ID's at schools are sound.  You can't let any yahoo walk around.  It's just common sense.     



And Dude...good luck with the ladies.  You're going to need it. 

The worst we ever had at the UMass library was the occasional old pervo waving what god blessed him with at the other patrons.
::)
(Maybe that would be the thing to Tazer.  You'll think twice about whipping it out next time, bub!)

The worst we ever had at the UMass library was the occasional old pervo waving what god blessed him with at the other patrons.
::)



That happened at GSU a couple times while I was there.  I was fortunate not to see it with my own eyes, but a girl in my Corporate Finance class had the bad luck to see it.

That happened at GSU a couple times while I was there.  I was fortunate not to see it with my own eyes, but a girl in my Corporate Finance class had the bad luck to see it.

Uh, that's more wholesome than anything you're gonna see in the world of corporate finance!
:P

Uh, that's more wholesome than anything you're gonna see in the world of corporate finance!
:P



It was a required class of all BBA students.  I didn't like it, but I got a B.  Kinda like Accounting^3 power.

It was a required class of all BBA students.  I didn't like it, but I got a B.  Kinda like Accounting^3 power.

Ah, requirements for the major.  You gotta do what you gotta do.  Even as a Journalism major, I had some stomach-turning requirments.  Congrats on getting a B.
;)

And Dude...good luck with the ladies.  You're going to need it. 


Uh, yeah. Thanks.

OK, then how about you all tell me how the police should have handled this.

They had a combative individual on the ground.  One who refused to show proper ID, and tried to leave the scene after they arrived.  This individual is resisting their attempts to verify his ID, refusing to leave the premises, and acting rude and beligerant.

Law Enforcement in California actually has very little choice in how they handle such matters.  They are largely left with either Pepper Spray, or Tazers.  Because it was in a crowded library, Pepper Spray was obviously out.  Their only other real option was to call for an ambulance, if they thought the student was psychotic and a danger to himself or others.  But this was obviously not the case, no matter how stupid he was acting.

What I find amazing is that even after repeated shocks with the tazer, he still resisted arrest, and fought against being removed from the library.  This is behavior normally seen in either people under the influence of drugs, or very mentally disturbed.  I was a witness to an assault 2 years ago, and saw a cop shoot the perp with a tazer,  This 6'6" 300+ pound guy promptly dropped to the ground and started to cry.  As the saying goes, "all the fight was taken out of him".

And what was it really all about?  He did not want to show his ID card to the security at the library.  The more I think on this, the more I actually start to question his sanity.  But some people simply feel the need to fight against everything they see as a "threat to their rights".

The cops may have gone overboard.  But the student could have also stopped this at any time, by complying with the officers.  He is hardly an "innocent victim" in all of this.  It was not like he was simply walking across the campus and they pounced on him for no good reason.  I am sure that if had not had his little temper tantrum, they would have excourted him outside, verified his ID, and sent him on his merry way.  They may have even told the CSO that he was verified, and let him in the library.

This is not so much a case of a "Rodney King", but the old Sonny Curtis song "I Fought The Law (And The Law Won)".

yeah, drugs. it's also a method used by war protestors, like i mentioned before. anyway, he wasn't resisting arrest so much as he wasn't standing up after the third or fourth shock. i dunno if that's really resisting arrest or if he was actually capable of getting up by that point.

there's so many of those guys i dunno why they didn't just carry him out. any one decent bouncer at a club coulda just dragged him like a sack to the front door and tossed him on his ear. but i guess tasering him was more fun.

Oh please.....do you think he could stand up after getting shocked for the 4th time?  He might have been in pain and was reacting to the electric shocks, and the dumbass police thought he was resisting and decided to shock him again.  I agree he should have shown his ID when it was asked for, but come on already......they went too far.

some people simply feel the need to fight against everything they see as a "threat to their rights".

this is one of my favorite things about america.

this is one of my favorite things about america.


But, as has been stated previously, he picked the wrong battle to fight.  Oh well.

sort of. the viciousness of the police's response makes me think this WAS a good fight to pick. if they have a pattern of acting this way, then they should be resisted in a variety of ways.

like i said, he's howling about the patriot act, and if they'd treated him humanely they'd've made him look stupid, but as it was they made his point and make me wonder if there's a broader pattern of police misconduct there.

Well, it IS the LAPD ;)

*zap*

  This 6'6" 300+ pound guy promptly dropped to the ground and started to cry.  As the saying goes, "all the fight was taken out of him".
It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog.

But some people simply feel the need to fight against everything they see as a "threat to their rights".
Yeah, stupid people.  We should all let the cops and courts tell us what our rights are!  I'm not talking about that tweaked out student at UCLA here.  Following your logic the civil rights movement would never have occurred.  You can tell me now that the activists in the civil rights movement had legitimate grievances, but in 1958, the American establishment certainly didn't think so...especially not White Southern men.  America has a problem with authority.  We like it too much!
::)


This is not so much a case of a "Rodney King", but the old Sonny Curtis song "I Fought The Law (And The Law Won)".

Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld--"I fought the law, and I won!"

You don't need a University ID to go into a public university and use its facilities.  They can restrict borrowing privledges, but not access.  It is a public conveyance, I have been to quite a few and never had a problem. 


but unfortunately female students have been raped on the ucla campus by outsiders who have wandered in. in fact, back in the late '80s-early '90s  a woman was raped at the very library where the tazer incident occurred. since then ID checks have been standard procedure at all the campuses of the UC




Now a CSO is a Community Service Officer, a fancy name for an unarmed security guard.  And for years, UCLA has had a policy that requires a student ID to use school facilities after 11pm.

This student was part of a check by Security, and did not have an ID.  He was then asked to leave, and when he refused Campus Police were called.  Now when the police are called and somebody only starts to leave when they appear, of course they are going to want to know why.  If he had simply left when asked, none of this would have happened.

And during the entire encounter he was rude and abusive to the officers.  The more I read about this (and I have browsed at least 20 sites about this incident), the more it looks to me like a moron who was acting like a child.  He did not want to follow the rules (which are in place to protect the students).  And when he did not get his way, he decided to have a temper-tantrum.  If one of my sons acted this way, I would have turned him over my knee.  In fact, when they were around 3-5, it was not unusual to have one drop to the ground and start screaming.  That is typical child behavior.  But I would expect better of a 24 year old College Senior.

http://www.copwatchla.org/newsaction.cgi?article=9999999772248.992023928215


several local news sources have reported that the man in question was screaming  "Am I the only martyr here?" when he was being apprehended

but unfortunately female students have been raped on the ucla campus by outsiders who have wandered in. in fact, back in the late '80s-early '90s  a woman was raped at the very library where the tazer incident occurred. since then ID checks have been standard procedure at all the campuses of the UC
Oftentimes the problem isn't the law, it's the lawman.

several local news sources have reported that the man in question was screaming  "Am I the only martyr here?" when he was being apprehended

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system!  Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system!  Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"


"Will you please shut up!"

*sits back and laughs at those that somehow think I am attacking Maxwell*


but unfortunately female students have been raped on the ucla campus by outsiders who have wandered in. in fact, back in the late '80s-early '90s  a woman was raped at the very library where the tazer incident occurred. since then ID checks have been standard procedure at all the campuses of the UC

several local news sources have reported that the man in question was screaming  "Am I the only martyr here?" when he was being apprehended


Most people who have never been to lor lived in Los Angeles really have no idea what that city is like.  Everybody knows that the moive stars live in Beverly Hills.  But they don't understand that BH is also one of the poorest areas of the city.  Within blocks of mansions you have slums.

And like the old song, "Nobody walks in LA".  The gangs in LA are very mobile, and freely travel large distances to comit their crimes.  And often as part of an initiation into a gang, prospective members are sent into other areas of town to comit a crime (ranging from assault to rape and murder).  And college campuses in LA are a huge magnet for the gangs, because of the large amount of drug sales.

USC, UCLA, and the various community colleges are about as close as you can come to a "Closed Campus".  They all have checkpoints you are supposed to pass before entering, and almost every building requires an ID check before entering.  When I was a student at Pierce Community College (1994), I remember I even had to pass through a metal detector before entering the Administration building.

I did not pick up the "Martyr" when watching the video, but I am not surprised.  In fact, I am surprised when I read news reports of the incident, and many of them continue with the fiction that he was "racially profiled".  He was asked for his ID when he was trying to enter the library, just as they check everybody else who does so after 11PM.

Oh, and the officers involved are UCPD, not LAPD.  And apparently UCPD does allow the use of a tazer when somebody is being un-cooperative.  They call the procedure "Drive Stun", and do not fire the barbs into the subject.  It also uses a lower level of electricity.  This is designed to be used in riot controll, where the subject is to be discouraged, but not incapacitated.  It is also frequently used on noncompliant subjects, when the use of Pepper Spray is not practacle (indoors, wind, rain).

"Will you please shut up!"

*sits back and laughs at those that somehow think I am attacking Maxwell*
i dunno if you should be laughing at people who miss monty python references, but i get this one so....

then again, i'm a dungeon master.

i dunno if you should be laughing at people who miss monty python references, but i get this one so....

then again, i'm a dungeon master.


It seems like any time Max gives an MP reference, I simply can't resist either giving one in response, or giving the response to the original quote.

I was actually torn between giving the "shut up" response, or trying to describe an image of the student hanging from a cross, singing "always look on the bright side of life".

And now for something completely different...

It seems like any time Max gives an MP reference, I simply can't resist either giving one in response, or giving the response to the original quote.

I was actually torn between giving the "shut up" response, or trying to describe an image of the student hanging from a cross, singing "always look on the bright side of life".

And now for something completely different...

"Up you go Big Nose!"
"I'm warning you, I really will thump you!"

That's why I recommend people watch Monty Python for the first time without the company of Python fans.  You might hear than fans quoting the sketches more than you hear the sketches themselves!  In fact, that was our one rule, if we were watching one of the movies or a Flying Circus episode, the rule was "No quoting!"  I didn't go to "Holy Grail" when the Pleasant Street Theatre ran it recently.  I knew all the GEEKS would be there in costume, shouting out the lines.  The proprietor told me later that's exactly what happened on the first showing, and on subsequent ones, they had to lay down the law beforehand.  That helped...a little.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/duckie.gif

Back to topic, it's the temper of the times, really.  Back in the Vietnam era you had tweaked-out hippies giving the cops the finger and whatnot.  Those clowns were the best friends the "establishment" ever had.  They were made the poster children of the anti-war movement.
::)

I did not pick up the "Martyr" when watching the video,...



Mavrick Goodrich, a chemical engineering major who observed the incident, said Tabatabainejad shouted, "Am I the only martyr?"

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-taser18nov18,1,3826691.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage

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"okay people, move along, and save your sympathies for real victims of police brutality."

okay people, move along, and save your sympathies for real victims of police brutality.
for instance...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061127/ts_nm/usa_crime_newyork_dc

it's been the lead story on the radio for at least the last couple hours.

i predict urban unrest.

for instance...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061127/ts_nm/usa_crime_newyork_dc

it's been the lead story on the radio for at least the last couple hours.

i predict urban unrest.


Seriously!! That is a travesty!!

"Will you please shut up!"

*sits back and laughs at those that somehow think I am attacking Maxwell*

Most people who have never been to lor lived in Los Angeles really have no idea what that city is like.  Everybody knows that the moive stars live in Beverly Hills.  But they don't understand that BH is also one of the poorest areas of the city.  Within blocks of mansions you have slums.

And like the old song, "Nobody walks in LA".  The gangs in LA are very mobile, and freely travel large distances to comit their crimes.  And often as part of an initiation into a gang, prospective members are sent into other areas of town to comit a crime (ranging from assault to rape and murder).  And college campuses in LA are a huge magnet for the gangs, because of the large amount of drug sales.
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I have visited LA twice(once was actually enough) and if I was poor in LA I would be really pissed off.  Talk about an offensive distribution of wealth.  All I can say is some people have it all and are obviously not too inclined to see that anyone without is able to get anything. 

I have visited LA twice(once was actually enough) and if I was poor in LA I would be really pissed off.  Talk about an offensive distribution of wealth.  All I can say is some people have it all and are obviously not too inclined to see that anyone without is able to get anything. 

Hmmm....I came to that same conclusion living in Boston in 1990!

That was the year Nelson Mandela was released from prison and the De Klerk government lifted the ban on the ANC.  There was a big activist push to reinvigorate Mandela and the African National Congress as a political force.

So all the yuppies from Lincoln and Lexington were effusing righteous indignation about South African Apartheid.  And I asked my friend Tony from Roxbury, "Can you imagine what it must be like living under that terrible Apartheid?"  Tony said, "Gee, I really don't know.  Can't understand it at all!"
::)

I have visited LA twice(once was actually enough) and if I was poor in LA I would be really pissed off.  Talk about an offensive distribution of wealth.  All I can say is some people have it all and are obviously not too inclined to see that anyone without is able to get anything. 


This is really just a vicious circle.  People move to LA because there are jobs there.  Because so many people live there, the housing costs rise.  The middle-class start to do insane commutes, which makes housing proces in the suburbs rise.  As people leave the "old middle class" neighborhoods, lower classes (in the last 20 years mostly immigrant) move in, but there is always mroe demand then supply so prices still rise.

Then the "new yuppies" rediscover the old neighborhoods.  They evict the "working poor" and renovate them into condos and replace the corner store with a Starbucks.  Prices then rise dramatically, until the next surge of suburban exodus.  Pasadena, Long Beach, Canoga Park, North Hollywood.  Each of these areas was rediscovered in the last 15 years, and saw a drastic increase in property value.  Those lucky enough to own their property made a lot of money.  Those that were renters had to find a new place to live, which only made affordable housing that much harder to find.

And I have seen housing prices in LA increase dramatically during my lifetime.  My parents bought their first house (a tiny 2 bedroom "Bungalow") in Encino in 1968.  It cost around $20,000.  That was when the San Fernando Valley was considered the "suburbs" (10 miles from LA).  When they sold it in 1975 when we moved to Idaho, it sold for around $35,000.  By then, Simi Valley was the new "suburb" (25 miles from LA), because the SFV had already filled up (I even remember the last of the farms dissapearing to build houses).

When I moved back to LA in 1982, the house next door sold for $60,000.  The "suburbs" were now out in the Santa Clarita Valley (35 miles from LA).  By the time I returned again in 1993, the new suburb was the Antelope Valley, about 60 miles from LA in the Mojave Desert.  In 1994 our old Encino house was on the market, for $145,000.  Most of the WWII families who owned the houses originally were starting to die off, and the region slowly changed to more of a Hispanic-Asian neighborhood.  Between 1984-1994, Van Nuys changed from 80% white to 70% Hispanic.

I did a Google recently, and found that the house next door to my parents old house was for sale again.  It was on the market for just a few weeks, and sold for $225,000.  "Affordable Housing" in the LA area currently starts in the $175,000 price range.  Most of the "working class" make one of two decisions.  They either live inside the area in a "slum neighborhood", or they put up woth 60-100 mile commutes, ranging from 2-4 hours each way.  A 3 hour drive is a real pain, but it lets you buy a house that would cost $200,000 for only $100,000.  For over 10 years the Antelope Valley has had one of the biggest housing booms in the nation.  But not everybody is willing to drive that far.

It really all boils down to 'supply and demand".  In addition, most of the homes in the older neighborhoods tend to be rather small.  And because the money is in the land more then the building on it, a great many of the homes have been torn down over the years to make way for apartments.

The desire to live inside or outside of LA itself is largely what determins the neighborhood the people live in.  For $800 you can rent a nice 2 bedroom apartment in Palmdale, in a building with security gates, a pool, and other amenities.  Around $1,000 will get you a slum 1 bedroom studio in Inglewood or Pacoima.  It all really boils down to "how far are you willing to commute?"  Because when you factor in the increased gas used, both work out to be about the same cost.

Myself, I actually made the choice to live in the slums.  This is because after 8 years, I was tired of 2-3 hour commutes to and from work.  Then eventually I could not stand it anymore and left LA for good.  And I am not the only one, because there has been a "middle class exodus" from LA for 20 years now.  People like me that eventually realize that the high wages are just not worth the living conditions and quality of life.

And LA does not help the issue much either.  "Mobile Homes" are almost totally prohibited in the LA area.  There are only a small handfull of mobile home parks in the city itself, and you do not start to see any until you get to the Santa Clarita or Antelope Valley areas.  So even people who want an inexpensive way to own their own home have to do the insane drives to and from work.  I owned 2 of them myself over the years, and each time was able to sell them for more then I had in them.  I simply was not willing to spend half my day on the freeways anymore.