I have a soft spot for the city. Unfortunately, the Rust Belt just ain't what it used to be, ya know? I grew up in the 'burbs, but never developed the love/hate relationship for the area the way some do. It is what it is, and nothing more.

BTW, Dude. I think you should try bowling sometime. C'mon, you'll love it! :)

It sounded like you were responding to me.

"If you wanna organize penniless radio newspeople" that sounds like it was directed at what I said in my post. And it seemed to me that your bringing up how you thought socialism was the solution when you were young was a way of playing the age card. "Silly boy, you'll understand when you grow up!"


Conservatives love to dredge up this stupid cliche.  It has so many permutations, the original quote is lost:

Erroneously attributed to Winston Churchill*

"Any man under 30 who is not a liberal has no heart, and any man over 30 who is not a conservative has no brains."

Some times attributed to G.B. Shaw.  Sometimes quoted as "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart, if you're not a conservative when you're 50 you have no brains."  You can also say 20, 40, and head.  You can also say socialist or communist instead!  You can also say Disraeli said it.

It cracks me up when the Right compares Dubya to Churchill.  The similarity just ain't there!  Churchill wrote more books by the time he was 40 than Bush read by the time he was 40!
;D

But that's always the lame attempt the Right uses to condescend to the Left.  I always scratch my head and ask, "So, tell me more about attaining the age 50 with no heart!

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_scratch.gif

*
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sir_Winston_Churchill

Is this where I post what song is currently stuck in my head?  whoops, sorry, wrong section.      I'm gonna go to PPP where I belong  ;D

oh, and the song is Manic Depression - Jimi Hendrix & I really don't see how our Bill Of Rights has been or is being burned up.  I, and anyone I know hasn't been denied or deprived of any rights that I'm aware of.  True, our leadership has failed & I don't think there will be any leader we will trust no matter what party they come from. We're in a world of sh*t, but at least we're in the best part of the sh*t. & I can't see blaming America or the West for fleecing third world countries of their resources. we're not taking what we want. We pay, we import, we buy Venezuelan oil and when the price of oil dips, their economy takes a hit because that's pretty much all they have, and Chavez controls it all with an iron hand. That country and many others have mucho poverty and their own leadership must assume a large part of the blame for that. As for the historical part our country has played in these other regions of the world, maybe I'll take Carlos's advice and read a little on the history but what author can I trust to not just give an emotional opinion and how am I to know the facts are true? I don't believe everything I read, but I guess it's better than not reading. I am off the the Playful Penguin Place where I feel more at home.  8)

What the F...?  Its Bush and his cronies who are burning the Bill of Rights.  I can understand that "free market freaks" don't like Chavez's politics, fair enough, but what he says about U.S. policy toward the third world is, and has been for not just decades, but generations true.  Our prosperity for many years has been based on the generation of poverty and misery throughout Latin America (which was once called "our little back yard), Africa, and Asia.  This history (which I suggest some of you read) goes back to the "filibustering" expeditions of the likes of William Walker in Nicaragua during the early 19th Century.  The means have  change, but the goal has remained the looting of the resources of weaker countries.  Our interferance in their internal affairs spans our history.  Call me a leftist if you like (I am) but that doesn't change the facts of the matter.  I'm not going to write a textbook on US imperialism here, but Chavez got it right, and (the religious crap aside, and as much as I abhore theocrocy) so did Iran's pres.  What I'm saying is not that we Americans are evil, but that we have turned a blind eye to the exploitation, nay the rape of the third world because, for a time, the rapists were willing to enhance our standard of living with a  pittance of the profits they reaped.   


What you are saying here is all correct and factual, however, my agreement stops there.

You would rather we didn't have the great standard of life that we have?
I appreciate that it's tough for people living in the third world, no.. that's not true, it's not tough.. it's impossible. That being said, am I willing to give up my nice house, comfortable car, air conditioning, microwave oven, top of the line computer? No, no I'd rather not.

Conservatives love to dredge up this stupid cliche.  It has so many permutations, the original quote is lost:

Erroneously attributed to Winston Churchill*

"Any man under 30 who is not a liberal has no heart, and any man over 30 who is not a conservative has no brains."



My point is probably best explained by Bob Dylan: "I was so much older then/I'm younger than that now." Teenagers know everything, and I was no exception. Growing up changes how you see things, and I'm not just talking about politics here.

Reading through  the pages since my post it seems there are two lines of argument.  First, that third world leaders bear most of the blame for the poverty of their countries.  This is called "blaming the victim".  There is some truth to it though, especially when those leaders have been put in place BECAUSE  they are in bed with the corporate interests that are raping their countries.  During the course of the 20th Century, and evan earlier, when leaders emerged in Latin America who had their people's interestsd at heart they tended not to stay in power for long.  The earliest instance I will mention goes back to Nicaragua at the turn of the 20th Century.  The liberal gov't negotiated a deal with Royal Dutch Shell for oil exploration.  It was much better that the deal offered by Standard Oil.  Guess what?  before that deal was consumated that gov't was overthrown, the deal aborgated, and a contract was signed with Srandard.  I'll jump ahead.  When Castro first came to power, taking his country away from the mafia, he tried to cut deals with the US firms that owned his country, but no dice - damn the Cubans, whats ours is ours, and Cuba was "ours".  Then there is Allende in Chile.  What, nationalize Kennacot & Anaconda?  No way Jose (or rather Sal), you gotta go.  And there's Nicaragua after 1979.  And the Sandinistas didn't nationalize any US owned property, but holy Moses, they might invade Texas!!! The real reason was that if they succeeded in improving their people's lot, it would be a bad example for the corporate point of view.  Oh, and we can't forget Iraq.  In the '80s Saddam was our good buddy - remember the photo of Rummy smiling and shaking hands with him as we supplied WMDs for use against Iran?  And speaking of Iran, we ousted M. Musadec (sp ?) for trying to get a better deal for his oil, and imposed the Shah.  That lead toi the "79 revolution, the hostage crisis, and the hatred Iranians feel towards us.  So this victim blaming is a crock.

The other angle is that we would have to sacrifice our "standard of living" if we were to change our ways.  I don't buy that one either. , at least not as an across the board proposition.  That argument presupposes that we here can't organize to demand our share of the profits our labor creates and at the same time help our real brothers & sisters, the working people of the third world, also get their share.  We are nowhere near that level of organization now (where are Big Bill and Joe Hill when we need them?), but we could get there if (hopefully when) American workers realize their real intersts.  So this "standard of living" line is also a crock.

  This is called "blaming the victim".

  So this victim blaming is a crock.



  Heya DC... :)

  I think the big difference is expectation.  While internationals have long since begun doubting Americans' "beacon of freedom" and "land of opportunity" rhetoric, we in this country still believe it to a certain degree...

  It can be fairly said, then, that we expect dirty dealings of dirty nations.  The US, however, advertises itself as better than that...

  The US is no more evil than anyone else, but we follow the violent path instead of lead the world to peace...

  We measure success in this country by the achievement of mission objectives, with little thought give to whether the accomplishment of those objectives will bring the intended result.  Our nation-building policy is taking heat in the MidEast, not because it is slow, but because it is ineffective due to the appearance of bad faith on the part of Americans...

  In light of that, of course the world is nervous that we can't act with integrity.  We know Bush and the US had massive political capital after 9/11, but have squandered it by threatening the world, muddling missions, and bleeding WTC for all its worth and more.

    When did nations become more important than the people who comprise them?  Ages ago.  We're merely following an old paradigm.  We need to lead people to a new one go ;)...

Karma point to DC for his post!
:)


My point is probably best explained by Bob Dylan: "I was so much older then/I'm younger than that now." Teenagers know everything, and I was no exception. Growing up changes how you see things, and I'm not just talking about politics here.

Another 16 years of living has taught me my friends in the Progressive Labor Party were correct in their diagnosis. It's their prescription that seems quite mad. 

There are lessons of life I could not have learned when I was 21.  It took time, trial and error, and the humility to admit it when I'm wrong in order for me to gain any wisdom.  Age is the great teacher.  However, not everybody learns its lessons.  My father is intellectually briliant.  He is a true scholar.  I wish I had the same aptitude.  Unfortunately, my dad is neither wise nor positively effective in his life.  He can quote chapter and verse everybody from Plato to Carl Rogers, and yet he's a pitiful old fool, and will be 'till the day he dies.  Funny how that works.    Age can only teach you if your mind is opened to learning from it.  And I still have much to learn!

However, the more experience I gain in the world, the more the Right proves to be wrong!
8)



What you are saying here is all correct and factual, however, my agreement stops there.

You would rather we didn't have the great standard of life that we have?
I appreciate that it's tough for people living in the third world, no.. that's not true, it's not tough.. it's impossible. That being said, am I willing to give up my nice house, comfortable car, air conditioning, microwave oven, top of the line computer? No, no I'd rather not.

The planet's resources are finite and you may not have the choice.

What you are saying here is all correct and factual, however, my agreement stops there.

You would rather we didn't have the great standard of life that we have?
I appreciate that it's tough for people living in the third world, no.. that's not true, it's not tough.. it's impossible. That being said, am I willing to give up my nice house, comfortable car, air conditioning, microwave oven, top of the line computer? No, no I'd rather not.


Would I LIKE to give these things up? No, who would?

HOWEVER, could I ever embrace keeping down other nations on purpose to maintain it? Absolutely not.  Your capitalist bretheren are always talking about free market and economic competition, but it seems you're all scared to play on an even field with the third world. A few people at the top in these countries benefiting from doing business with us while their country stays in the sheesht*er and while WE reap the benefit from their resources isn't a "free market". Its economic imperialism.

Would I LIKE to give these things up? No, who would?

HOWEVER, could I ever embrace keeping down other nations on purpose to maintain it? Absolutely not.  Your capitalist bretheren are always talking about free market and economic competition, but it seems you're all scared to play on an even field with the third world. A few people at the top in these countries benefiting from doing business with us while their country stays in the sheesht*er and while WE reap the benefit from their resources isn't a "free market". Its economic imperialism.

The myth is that capitalism favors competition.  It is better for the consumer if individual businesses have to compete to provide the best goods and services.  That doesn't happen unless the government sets rules enforcing it.  Left to their own devices, big businesses gobble up smaller businesses, and then a few oligarchical corporations collude to fix prices and freeze out competition.  That's the case with the oil companies. The lies the capitalists tell via politicians such as Reagan is that government regulation stifles free market competition.  Even in 1981, the evidence was quite the contrary.  Nevertheless, repeat a big enough lie often enough and people will believe it.  We don't even have laissez-faire capitalism anymore.  We have fascism, in which the government puts its thumb on the scales in favor of the biggest corporations.  That's what the Bush family is all about.
::)

The myth is that capitalism favors competition.  It is better for the consumer if individual businesses have to compete to provide the best goods and services.  That doesn't happen unless the government sets rules enforcing it.  Left to their own devices, big businesses gobble up smaller businesses, and then a few oligarchical corporations collude to fix prices and freeze out competition.  That's the case with the oil companies. The lies the capitalists tell via politicians such as Reagan is that government regulation stifles free market competition.  Even in 1981, the evidence was quite the contrary.  Nevertheless, repeat a big enough lie often enough and people will believe it.  We don't even have laissez-faire capitalism anymore.  We have fascism, in which the government puts its thumb on the scales in favor of the biggest corporations.  That's what the Bush family is all about.
::)


Exactly! They don't really want capitalism anyway. What they really want is socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else.

I thinking about this just now:  Isn't it a double standard that Chavez "calls a spade a spade" when he refers to Bush as the devil, but Bush was "spouting inflammatory rhetoric" when he started talking about "the axis of evil" and throwing the "evil" word around (a practice of his continued today)?

Perhaps Bush is the devil and Saddam Hussein is evil, but I'm not sure that it's prudent to call a spade a spade on a global forum.

One last note though:  Bush and his "evil" ranting has screwed us over way more than Chavez's monologue at the UN.  Chavez can't really make anything worse for himself anyway since Bush is stubborn and he has a bad reputation in the USA anyway.  The United States, however, used to have credibility.

on a similar line of thinking, everyone but pro-war republicans are holocaust revisionists if they talk about the holocaust in terms of anything but the holocaust, but bush and his people are always comparing every tin-pot dictator that comes down the pike to hitler. so why are THEY not holocaust revisionists? aren't they basically saying the massacre of the kurds, for instance, and gassing the iranians, which they were perfectly okay with when it happened, are actually as bad as the holocaust?

Exactly! They don't really want capitalism anyway. What they really want is socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else.

More like socialism for the rich and serfdom for everyone else!

More like socialism for the rich and serfdom for everyone else!


Karma+1

What you are saying here is all correct and factual, however, my agreement stops there.

You would rather we didn't have the great standard of life that we have?
I appreciate that it's tough for people living in the third world, no.. that's not true, it's not tough.. it's impossible. That being said, am I willing to give up my nice house, comfortable car, air conditioning, microwave oven, top of the line computer? No, no I'd rather not.


I have never been able to understand why people believe that we can not have a high standard of living and be fair in our business dealings with other nations.  Just as I have never been able to understand why people do believe that the 3% of the people who are able to control 80% of the wealth in this country are dealing fairly and equitably with the workers in this country. 

I have never been able to understand why people believe that we can not have a high standard of living and be fair in our business dealings with other nations.  Just as I have never been able to understand why people do believe that the 3% of the people who are able to control 80% of the wealth in this country are dealing fairly and equitably with the workers in this country. 


The reason we have such a high standard of living is through exploitation. That's true, it's unfortunate, but true.
We buy things far cheaper than they would normally be and as such keep these nations in a constant economic state of depression.

I have never been able to understand why people believe that we can not have a high standard of living and be fair in our business dealings with other nations.  Just as I have never been able to understand why people do believe that the 3% of the people who are able to control 80% of the wealth in this country are dealing fairly and equitably with the workers in this country. 

That top 3% are the only ones who matter to the GOP.  They had to pay lip service the majority because they needed the votes.  However, they're working on that.  The Republicans on this board will reailize when the GOP no longer needs their votes, they will be no better off than the poor in this country...and perhaps the poor in a lot of the Third World countries.  The top few pecentile don't want to live comfortably, they want to live like sultans, and they do.  You get to keep your nice house and your toys because they get to maintain their standard of sultan-hood. 

The reason we have such a high standard of living is through exploitation. That's true, it's unfortunate, but true.
We buy things far cheaper than they would normally be and as such keep these nations in a constant economic state of depression.


In approximate chronological order, the citizens of Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, and mainland China would respectfully disagree with that assessment. 

If you're under age 40, ask your parents about a time when "Made in Japan" was a label that indicated "cheap crap that people only purchased if they couldn't afford a quality radio, television, automobile, or animated cartoon made in the USA."

It's about comparative advantage. I'm very good with computers.  I'm pretty good in the kitchen.  I'm lousy at running a business.  And I suck at winemaking and homebrewing.

For half an hour's fiddling with a computer, 15 minutes at the grocery store, and another 15 minutes at a winery, I can buy enough gas to get to work, to the grocery store, to the winery, and end up with a meal that a restaurant would charge $200 for, and still have enough money left over to pay tribute to at least three levels of feudal Lords.  It's not that bad a system, even for a serf like me.  Or a serf like my boss. 

If feudalism means I get to live better than the King himself did just 200 years ago, bring on feudalism.

In approximate chronological order, the citizens of Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, and mainland China would respectfully disagree with that assessment. 

If you're under age 40, ask your parents about a time when "Made in Japan" was a label that indicated "cheap crap that people only purchased if they couldn't afford a quality radio, television, automobile, or animated cartoon made in the USA."

It's about comparative advantage. I'm very good with computers.  I'm pretty good in the kitchen.  I'm lousy at running a business.  And I suck at winemaking and homebrewing.

For half an hour's fiddling with a computer, 15 minutes at the grocery store, and another 15 minutes at a winery, I can buy enough gas to get to work, to the grocery store, to the winery, and end up with a meal that a restaurant would charge $200 for, and still have enough money left over to pay tribute to at least three levels of feudal Lords.  It's not that bad a system, even for a serf like me.  Or a serf like my boss. 

If feudalism means I get to live better than the King himself did just 200 years ago, bring on feudalism.


I'm finding it hard to get your idea here, could you explain it in Laymans terms for me.. PM me and explain it?

I'm finding it hard to get your idea here, could you explain it in Laymans terms for me.. PM me and explain it?

I think he's saying....welll, let me he put it this way, he means....no, scratch that, the main thrust of his argument, uh, well he's trying get at the main idea pertaining to, that is to say, in a roundabout way he's telling you...

Ummmmm....I know!  Wait, it can't be that.  It's....he...I...hmmph.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/dontknow.gif

Hey, why wish. Just sell the house, get a place in Venezuala & then he'll be your el presidente' & you can admire & enjoy his caring leadership firsthand. Just don't hurl any insults at him like they're hurled at President Bush because I heard he established a law against insulting the president of Venezuala and that will get you locked up there. Yeah, he's a real people person. I heard his disrespectful rantings have something to do with hot blood.

Actually, my brother in law did just that. A few years ago, he and his wife sold all their worldly belongings , including their house, and they moved to South America. They lived in  Argentina, Venezuela, Colombia, Chile, Peru. They taught English and worked as translators. They lived down there for about 3 yrs. They came back to the US, and he received the Fulbright Scholarship , and up and left again and went to work at a university in Xalapa, Vera Cruz, Mexico for another 2yrs. They are back in Tucson again, but who knows for how long. My whole point is, you can say that, like it's a bad thing, (to sell our american wealth and go live in a 'third world country',) but for some, that isn't the nightmare you imply it to be.  As for me.. I'm too lazy and crave stability.. I don't like all that packing up and unpacking.. :P

I'm finding it hard to get your idea here, could you explain it in Laymans terms for me.. PM me and explain it?


   He's saying that the U.S. is now gettin' it comin'-in-through-the-out-door...

   With no courtesy reach around...

   The listed nations' are doing just fine, thank you very much, as a consequence of our conspicuous consumption.  Heck, find me one U.S. made television set.  I mean U.S. made by a U.S. owned manufacturer...

   "Made in Japan" doesn't mean what it used to, anymore...go ;)...

I'm finding it hard to get your idea here, could you explain it in Laymans terms for me.. PM me and explain it?


No need for a PM: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_Advantage

I'm better at computers than my boss is.  He's better at running a business than I am.  We're both better off when he pays me to futz with his computers.

Your grandmother's probably better at winemaking than I am.  I think life's too short to drink bad wine.  We're both better off when I buy my booze from someone who knows what he's doing.

As for Japan:

There's not a song on the radio that I can't get
With my new Nakamichi metal tape cassette,
Yamaha built this great guitar,
But I'll never buy another little Japanese car...

Give me a Ford or a Plymouth or a Chevrolet,
I wanna live to see another sunny day,
I want steel all around me and a heavy frame,
These recycled beer cans crush and maim.

- (the only part of the)  actual lyrics (that I remember)  from Jumpin John Goldsmith's "You're Still Not Safe in a Japanese Car" -- but it was sung with conviction, not irony, in the early '80s.  Even after we'd acknowledged that the Japanese were better at building radios, TVs, and (heh!) "Walkmen" than we would ever be, there was a time when we still believed Japanese cars were crap compared to "real" cars made in America. Go figure.

As for the wisecrack about the King - look around you.  The past 500 years of this process - a civilizationi consisting of everyone doing what they're better at, buying the things they suck at, and reducing everything down to money, has resulted in a civilization which gives its members cheap antibiotics, vaccines for most diseases, refrigeration, air conditioning, and the ability to instantly communicate with ~20% of the planet's population at the touch of a few buttons.  You have a higher standard of living than Caesar, Louis XIV, Napoleon Bonaparte, and probably better than that enjoyed by Hitler or Stalin.  Not bad.

   He's saying that the U.S. is now gettin' it comin'-in-through-the-out-door...

   With no courtesy reach around...

   The listed nations' are doing just fine, thank you very much, as a consequence of our conspicuous consumption.  Heck, find me one U.S. made television set.  I mean U.S. made by a U.S. owned manufacturer...

   "Made in Japan" doesn't mean what it used to, anymore...go ;)...

My old man liked to talk about how "Made in Japan" was a running joke in the '50s.  They made things toy cars that fell apart in your hands, and you could see the thing was made out of an old Schlitz can!  Yeah, they laughed and laughed!  We nuked those Tojo and those little yellow guys 'till they glowed in the dark!  All those Japanese know how to do is bow to the emperor and eat raw fish heads.  They got no ingenuity like us Americans.  Did you see that little nip guy trying make those cheap-o scooters, ah, Mr. Honda.  He ain't goin' nowhere...
:D

As for the wisecrack about the King - look around you.  The past 500 years of this process - a civilizationi consisting of everyone doing what they're better at, buying the things they suck at, and reducing everything down to money, has resulted in a civilization which gives its members cheap antibiotics, vaccines for most diseases, refrigeration, air conditioning, and the ability to instantly communicate with ~20% of the planet's population at the touch of a few buttons.  You have a higher standard of living than Caesar, Louis XIV, Napoleon Bonaparte, and probably better than that enjoyed by Hitler or Stalin.  Not bad.


Correct.

Essentially, those that can't, buy.. and those that can.. sell.

Unfortunately, gman has a point.  I spoke of "walking" to a "unionized" job and patronizing a real neighborhood bar, instead of sh*t chain bar and grille in strip malls. 
What was commonplace 50 years ago sounds like Rivendel today.  We've evolved a lot since 1955, but we have also devolved.  Walking?  Who the hell can walk anymore?  A lot of towns out west don't even have frikkin' sidewalks.

Suburbia will be known by the middle of this century as the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of mankind.  We may very well be back to the walking city and the neighborhood bar not out of choice but out of necessity.  Suburban life requires cheap and plentiful oil and electricity.  In the west, it requires zillions of gallons of whater pumped and channeled to the various cities.  Once this accelerated consumption of natural resources is no longer feasible, you can wave goodbye to your suburban paradise with the chemically-grown lawn stubble, the sidewalk-free roads, and the five miles it takes to drive just to pick up a bottle of milk!
::)

5miles? bottle of milk? LOL.. it's more like we DRIVE to the quick e mart, down the street, 2 blocks away.. to pay 3.00 for a gallon of milk that tastes oddly like some chemical has seeped into the fluid from the plastic jug it's encased in.

The myth is that capitalism favors competition.  It is better for the consumer if individual businesses have to compete to provide the best goods and services.  That doesn't happen unless the government sets rules enforcing it.  Left to their own devices, big businesses gobble up smaller businesses, and then a few oligarchical corporations collude to fix prices and freeze out competition.  That's the case with the oil companies. The lies the capitalists tell via politicians such as Reagan is that government regulation stifles free market competition.  Even in 1981, the evidence was quite the contrary.  Nevertheless, repeat a big enough lie often enough and people will believe it.  We don't even have laissez-faire capitalism anymore.  We have fascism, in which the government puts its thumb on the scales in favor of the biggest corporations.  That's what the Bush family is all about.
::)


Absolutely!!!  Adam Smith saw this way back in 1776, when he published The wealth of Natioins.  Basically he said put and two ot three businessmen in a room together and they will conspire to eliminate competition and fix prices. 

Now back to Chavez.  Some of you may know that this nasty little man is providing low cost heating oil to the northeastern states through CITCO - giving us forien aid.  And let me remind you all that he was ELECTED by the Venzuelan people, and unlike... won a  clear, undisputed majority, unlike some of our friends in the middle east.  How, then, is he a dictator? 

Absolutely!!!  Adam Smith saw this way back in 1776, when he published The wealth of Natioins.  Basically he said put and two ot three businessmen in a room together and they will conspire to eliminate competition and fix prices. 

Now back to Chavez.  Some of you may know that this nasty little man is providing low cost heating oil to the northeastern states through CITCO - giving us forien aid.  And let me remind you all that he was ELECTED by the Venzuelan people, and unlike... won a  clear, undisputed majority, unlike some of our friends in the middle east.  How, then, is he a dictator? 


He's a dictator because we don't like him.  If you want to control the affairs of your own country, if you want the role of U.S. corporations in your country to be determined by you, your cabinet ministers, and your people...and not America, Inc....then you're a dictator!  You're a dictator because you want to dictate to Corporate America and not vice versa!

Now back to Chavez.  Some of you may know that this nasty little man is providing low cost heating oil to the northeastern states through CITCO - giving us forien aid.  And let me remind you all that he was ELECTED by the Venzuelan people, and unlike... won a  clear, undisputed majority, unlike some of our friends in the middle east.  How, then, is he a dictator? 


Because he's a mean ol' pinko he probably STOLE that election- oh wait. :-X

Because he's a mean ol' pinko he probably STOLE that election- oh wait. :-X

Was that an underhanded crack at MY president.  Look. Bush won both elections fair and square.  There is ZERO proof to the contrary.  None. OK?  The American people don't want your socialist nanny state and you liberal crybabies just can't take it!  You...you...you terrorist-loving sore losers!!!
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