I'm not singling out religion.  People hate each other over all kinds of other stuff too!
::)

Wow, this went really badly. ::)

Just forget it. Obviously the people here are not mature enough to discuss religion and spirituality without going on a little tirade about why they don't like organized religion. Big whoop! Everybody already knows organized religion has a bad history. The purpose of this thread isn't for secular vs. religious debate, take it elsewhere. Its for people to discuss and have an exchange about personal spirituality and religion.

This was just so goddamn predictable.



Calm down, Alex.  That is exactly what people are doing.  Some people are not religious or they've had bad experiences with it and they are sharing them with others.  I don't see any bashing, insulting or putting-down going on, do you?  All I've seen is conversation.  Instead of just saying "I don't like ____" and not saying why, they are explaining what has caused them to feel the way they feel.  Isn't that what "debate" is about?

Wow, this went really badly. ::)

Just forget it. Obviously the people here are not mature enough to discuss religion and spirituality without going on a little tirade about why they don't like organized religion. Big whoop! Everybody already knows organized religion has a bad history. The purpose of this thread isn't for secular vs. religious debate, take it elsewhere. Its for people to discuss and have an exchange about personal spirituality and religion.

This was just so goddamn predictable.



I find it ridiculous that you're questioning people's maturity, when you're the one throwing a fit because people have view points that are different than your own.  If you wanted a thread that shared only positive opinions about religion you should have said so.

And nowhere in my post do I say that spirituality is all hooey.  I'm actually very spiritual.  I just don't care for religion.

[quote author=

And nowhere in my post do I say that spirituality is all hooey.  I'm actually very spiritual.  I just don't care for religion.



Not all religion is devoid of spirituality.

Obviously I made a mistake including the word religion in the title, it gave people some idea this was a discussion about ORGANIZED religion. ::)

Yeah but I just wish that people would learn to see beyond organized religion and look at the side of things religion is SUPPOSED to focus on- spirituality. I grew up in the bible belt so I have my share of horror stories too, but I don't allow that to make me throw the baby out with the bath water. I don't understand throwing away spirituality because organized religion has it's flaws.

Besides, this obviously wasn't mean to be a secular vs. religious & spiritual debate. If it had been I'd of said so, the title of the thread is religion and spirituality. I'd like to see people discuss their spirituality with eachother, an exchange of ideas. If you don't have any, then obviously this thread isn't for you.

Hell, I specifically said all the other religious discussions on this board are sociological(does religion cause patriarchy) and politically-oriented(the evils of the evangelical movement, Islamic terrorism), not just purely spiritual. Thats why I created this thread for a pure discussion of the subject, not a discussion of it vs. secular ideology, or whatever.


I grew up in a very Catholic home, going to Mass three times a week and Catholic school until I started college.  I chose to leave the Church because I felt the Church's teachings were against what I felt to be common sense.  In that regard, I am not relgious but I am in a way, spiritual.  I am more than willing to discuss spirituality, but I can't talk about why I'm spiritual without explaining why I'm not religious because the two are very closely connected.

Wow, this went really badly. ::)

Just forget it. Obviously the people here are not mature enough to discuss religion and spirituality

This was just so goddamn predictable.


...but you repeat yourself three times.  Any discussion of religion will end badly, because people everywhere aren't mature enough to discuss it, and that's why it's predictable.

To try and swing this trainwreck of a thread back on topic - OK, here's a little story of spiritual development.

I was unlucky enough to grow up Baptist. 

But I was lucky enough to have a pastor who had a real Ph.D in philosophy (but he repeats himself :) from a real university, who scared the heck out of the blue-haired fundies in the congregation every now and then.  The times he didn't scare the fundies in the congregation were the times that his hints/jokes went over his audience's head.

Halfway through the typical spiritual drought (the "crisis of faith" most kids get in college), I realized I'd learned more about being a Christian from reading the words of J.R. "Bob" Dobbs than I was likely to hear from any of the churches I'd visited.

The first $20 (hey, it was $20 when we thought the saucers were coming in 1998.  It's $30 today.  Deal.  Or fry when the saucers come in 8661) sent to the Church of the Subgenius were the last dollars I ever gave to any religion, be it organized or disorganized.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
- Prov. 3:5-6

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."
-  Matt 6:33

199619971998.
- short story by Rev. John Shirley, Church of the Subgenius. 

It's a little longer than the one-liners from 2000 years ago and whenever the book of Proverbs was written.  We're a little dumber today.  But on the upside, Shirley's story is funnier than the stuff they were reading 2000+ years ago, too.  Fair tradeoff in my book.

I'd enjoyed the stories in the Book of the Subgenius for a few years - but sending that $20 was the "leap of faith" in the Kierkegaardian sense.  I was at wit's end.  Had the brains, had the skills, didn't have the job, didn't have the co-workers, my ability to produce was wasted, and it was driving me nuts.

It's been long enough since then that eternal salvation now costs $30, not $20, or triple your money back.  It's been long enough that I was disappointed the world didn't end on July 5, 1998 because my infinitely-fallible spiritual leader was reading upside down and mis-transcribed "8661/5/7" as "7/5/1998". 

But I'm still due to retire before I'm 40.  It's still the best $20 I ever spent.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.  And PRABOB.

I didn't used to be spiritual at all, really.

What really started to change me, was my out-of-body experience. Prior to that I was pretty strictly a naturalist and thought that everything could be explained by science and anything that couldn't, could not be real. In my senior year of high school I began to suffer from sleep paralysis- a condition in which one awakens from REM(dream) sleep, still paralyzed(when we're in REM sleep our body is paralyzed). Its like a lag, one becomes concious again but their body is still in REM mode- you're paralyzed and there is still a lot of seratonin in your system, so it causes a certain amount of hallucination- mainly auditory.

It really scared me whenever it happened, because its such an uneasy feeling to not be able to move at all. One night when I woke up and couldn't move, I became frustrated, and started trying to sit up as hard as I could. After what seemed like a minute or two of struggling, the low "whooshing" noise I already heard seemed to become louder, and sound kind of like static- or like something tearing.

My vision whited out, but I could feel what I was doing- and I suddenly became aware that I was still lying down.. It was like split perspective you could say, I knew my body was still lying on the bed, but I was also aware of myself sitting up. As soon as I realised what was going down, it scared the sh*t outt me to say the least. And I think because it frightened me I was pulled back down, to my body. Before I could even make a full seperation. And the feeling of going back was so odd, when I let myself go I didn't plop right down, I sort of floated down, until I was right above my body, and all at once, I felt like something PUSHED me down- and I suddenly could move again, and I sat up. I knew that it could not be a dream because, obviously, I knew I was awake at the time because I was in paralysis.

After that I wanted to find an explanation for what happened to me. So I began to research reports about out-of-body experiences, and it was through this research I became familiar with transcendental meditation, esoteric projection, chakra, and kundalinis- which are all mystical practices found in Eastern religion- Hinduism and Buddhism. I read other people's accounts of their OBE's and astral projecting, and what they described was my experience to the T. Vibrations, a static-like noise, the feeling of being PUSHED back into your body, your vision whiting out as you seperate from your body, it all matched up with what happened to me.

After getting into the concept of astral projection(essentially- its willingly inducing OBEs through meditation), I learned about the Vedic traditions- and how they teach that there are these different levels of existence, and the physical world is only one of them. I've always been a person who believes in science, and that had always been my main obstacle that kept me from spirituality. However the concept of existence consisting of several different planes was very liberating- I realised that science only explains our physical world. The ability to explain this existence does not cancel out there being more. Reading about string theory has deepened this concept for me. The string theory is essentially that there are actually a long series of inter-connected realities, multiple universes. Science explains how our world works, but I've come to think there's definitely more out besides observable phenomenon- which is what science studies.

Sorry for being long-winded.

This was just so goddamn predictable.

What were you thinking?
That everyone would jump on your happy little band wagon?
Religion and spirituality are very personal matters.

I have studied many different religions and they all have the same basic concept. Good vs. Evil...
That being said I choose not to worship, but to coincide with life as it is. As we find it, day after day.
Call me wiccan if you will. I choose to spend my time in nature, with her.
That is the only place I feel at home.

I didn't used to be spiritual at all, really.

What really started to change me, was my out-of-body experience. Prior to that I was pretty strictly a naturalist and thought that everything could be explained by science and anything that couldn't, could not be real. In my senior year of high school I began to suffer from sleep paralysis- a condition in which one awakens from REM(dream) sleep, still paralyzed(when we're in REM sleep our body is paralyzed). Its like a lag, one becomes concious again but their body is still in REM mode- you're paralyzed and there is still a lot of seratonin in your system, so it causes a certain amount of hallucination- mainly auditory.

It really scared me whenever it happened, because its such an uneasy feeling to not be able to move at all. One night when I woke up and couldn't move, I became frustrated, and started trying to sit up as hard as I could. After what seemed like a minute or two of struggling, the low "whooshing" noise I already heard seemed to become louder, and sound kind of like static- or like something tearing.

My vision whited out, but I could feel what I was doing- and I suddenly became aware that I was still lying down.. It was like split perspective you could say, I knew my body was still lying on the bed, but I was also aware of myself sitting up. As soon as I realised what was going down, it scared the sh*t outt me to say the least. And I think because it frightened me I was pulled back down, to my body. Before I could even make a full seperation. And the feeling of going back was so odd, when I let myself go I didn't plop right down, I sort of floated down, until I was right above my body, and all at once, I felt like something PUSHED me down- and I suddenly could move again, and I sat up. I knew that it could not be a dream because, obviously, I knew I was awake at the time because I was in paralysis.



This has happened to me quite often, since I was very young. I just lay back, try to relax and slowly come out of it, then get on with the day.

This has happened to me quite often, since I was very young. I just lay back, try to relax and slowly come out of it, then get on with the day.


I no longer have sleep paralysis actually. Which is unfortunate, because, it seems when one's in this state its much easier to seperate from the body. Thats why I became interested in many of this Hindu practices because they center on astral projecting, willingly inducing an out-of-body state.



I have studied many different religions and they all have the same basic concept. Good vs. Evil...
That being said I choose not to worship, but to coincide with life as it is. As we find it, day after day.
Call me wiccan if you will. I choose to spend my time in nature, with her.
That is the only place I feel at home.


I wonder how you came to this conclusion. I too have studied all of the world's religions and while good vs. evil is the theme of many of them, its certainly not the theme of all of them. Now, perhaps, you mean duality? ???

I too am Wiccan actually. I just recently made that decision, after learning about it the past two years and my experiences with OBE's. I'm actually a follower of a less common spiritual path in Wicca(than say Gardnerian or Alexandrian) called Shakti-Wicca.

http://shaktiwicca.tripod.com/

Then why are you a Wiccan? Wicca may be more open to personal interpretation, but its a religion nonetheless.



I thought it was an interesting (and somewhat humorous) quote and it really has nothing to do with me being Wiccan. And yes, Wicca is a religion-and the way I practice it is MY religion which I do not try to coerce anyone to practice it. I believe that being Wiccan gives me a sense of freedom to be as spiritual or unspiritual as I see fit. I do believe that you can be spiritual without being religious. Am I religious? I would say I am. I try to follow my belief system-the Wiccan Rede  "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will". Do I observe every Sabbat or full moon? No. Sometimes I just don't feel like doing a ritual. Does that make me less of a Wiccan or any less spiritual? I don't think so. No less than being a Catholic or Methodist who does not go to Church.



Cat

That everyone would jump on your happy little band wagon?


Hey, I could go for a happy little bandwagon just about now!
:(

I no longer have sleep paralysis actually. Which is unfortunate, because, it seems when one's in this state its much easier to seperate from the body. Thats why I became interested in many of this Hindu practices because they center on astral projecting, willingly inducing an out-of-body state.

I wonder how you came to this conclusion. I too have studied all of the world's religions and while good vs. evil is the theme of many of them, its certainly not the theme of all of them. Now, perhaps, you mean duality? ???

I too am Wiccan actually. I just recently made that decision, after learning about it the past two years and my experiences with OBE's. I'm actually a follower of a less common spiritual path in Wicca(than say Gardnerian or Alexandrian) called Shakti-Wicca.

http://shaktiwicca.tripod.com/


About 30 years ago my sister had a friend into new age stuff and my sister brought me by to meet her because I have always bit a bit..."different" .  Her friend said to bring me by, she would "read my aura"  When I walked in her eyes bugged out and she said I was very purple, and she said she wouldn't say anymore other than that.  I was always told that I could "read beads" meaning I could figure out people real quick, and some how just know things.  In the past year I found this.

www.innerself.com/Parenting/indigo_children.htm

About 30 years ago my sister had a friend into new age stuff and my sister brought me by to meet her because I have always bit a bit..."different" .  Her friend said to bring me by, she would "read my aura"  When I walked in her eyes bugged out and she said I was very purple, and she said she wouldn't say anymore other than that.  I was always told that I could "read beads" meaning I could figure out people real quick, and some how just know things.  In the past year I found this.

www.innerself.com/Parenting/indigo_children.htm



From what I know about you, that article does sound about right.  ;D



Cat

Hey, I could go for a happy little bandwagon just about now!
:(


Feeling down, Maxwell?



I thought it was an interesting (and somewhat humorous) quote and it really has nothing to do with me being Wiccan. And yes, Wicca is a religion-and the way I practice it is MY religion which I do not try to coerce anyone to practice it. I believe that being Wiccan gives me a sense of freedom to be as spiritual or unspiritual as I see fit. I do believe that you can be spiritual without being religious. Am I religious? I would say I am. I try to follow my belief system-the Wiccan Rede  "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will". Do I observe every Sabbat or full moon? No. Sometimes I just don't feel like doing a ritual. Does that make me less of a Wiccan or any less spiritual? I don't think so. No less than being a Catholic or Methodist who does not go to Church.



Cat


My mistake, Cat.


About 30 years ago my sister had a friend into new age stuff and my sister brought me by to meet her because I have always bit a bit..."different" .  Her friend said to bring me by, she would "read my aura"  When I walked in her eyes bugged out and she said I was very purple, and she said she wouldn't say anymore other than that.  I was always told that I could "read beads" meaning I could figure out people real quick, and some how just know things.  In the past year I found this.

www.innerself.com/Parenting/indigo_children.htm


Huh..interesting. I don't know a whole lot about aura, just that its related to kundalini energy, which is very important in meditation.

Feeling down, Maxwell?



Oh, I'm just in a little slump, nothing a couple of rounds electroconvulsive therapy couldn't help!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/ear.gif

Oh, I'm just in a little slump, nothing a couple of rounds electroconvulsive therapy couldn't help!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/04/ear.gif


It is autumn in New England, the weather is perfect, the moods aren't....Urge for Going, Jack Kerouac, odd fleeting thoughts of snow shovels  :-\\

It is autumn in New England, the weather is perfect, the moods aren't....Urge for Going, Jack Kerouac, odd fleeting thoughts of snow shovels  :-\\


Eh? I'm not a New Englander, so I guess these references are lost on me...

Unless "Urge for going" is in relation to the Joni Mitchell song. ???

Eh? I'm not a New Englander, so I guess these references are lost on me...

Unless "Urge for going" is in relation to the Joni Mitchell song. ???


In New England the autumn is a glorious time of year.  The air can be so clear and the colors of the trees turn from green to red, yellow, and orange, but there tends to be a wierd mood that accompanies all of the natural beauty because it is heralding endings.  Sad folk songs like "Urge for Going" start being played, and people who have always thought that maybe they would like to leave New England start thinking about the winter weather.  I actually love this time of year, but am aware that it is a very melancholy time as well.



I awoke today and found the frost perched on the town
It hovered in a frozen sky, then it gobbled summer down
When the sun turns traitor cold
And shivering trees are standing in a naked row
I get the urge for going but I never seem to go

I get the urge for going
When the meadow grass is turning brown
Summertime is falling down and winter is closing in

I wonder how you came to this conclusion. I too have studied all of the world's religions and while good vs. evil is the theme of many of them, its certainly not the theme of all of them. Now, perhaps, you mean duality?

You're right. My statement was too broad.
Duality describes it better, but you got the point...


I too am Wiccan actually. I just recently made that decision, after learning about it the past two years and my experiences with OBE's.

How does one "decide" to follow a certain religion?
To me it's something that comes from the heart and soul, not the mind.
Inner conviction and experience trump logic every time.

By the way, Dude- I'm glad that you started this thread.
Hopefully you'll get some more responses and ideas posted here.
8)

How does one "decide" to follow a certain religion?
To me it's something that comes from the heart and soul, not the mind.
Inner conviction and experience trump logic every time.


I've decided based on my own research and experiance(which I talked about above).

How does one "decide" to follow a certain religion?
To me it's something that comes from the heart and soul, not the mind.
Inner conviction and experience trump logic every time.



There has to be a decision, especially if one has been indoctrinated at an early age to follow one specific faith.  There has to be a decision that what you have been taught is not fulfilling you spiritually, the decision to seek out a faith, and the decision that you have found one that you are comfortable with and gives you a sense of peace that you didn't find in other ways.  It has to answer the questions of the heart, soul, and mind(the holy trinity).  Inner conviction follows.

There has to be a decision, especially if one has been indoctrinated at an early age to follow one specific faith.  There has to be a decision that what you have been taught is not fulfilling you spiritually, the decision to seek out a faith, and the decision that you have found one that you are comfortable with and gives you a sense of peace that you didn't find in other ways.

I have decided not to follow many different religions.
The one I feel comfortable with came to me naturally.

There is a difference.

I have decided not to follow many different religions.
The one I feel comfortable with came to me naturally.

There is a difference.


Of course it comes naturally, however at some point you do look at yourself and decide that you've come to that point.

I think you're stuck on semantics here.

I've been able to acheive certain levels of disassociation through meditation and breathing exercises, but I think I still have a way to go before I canput myself into the vibrational state. It may take a few months, maybe even a year or two. Its not the type of thing that happens overnight.

But considering I've only been really trying about a week, my progress so far is encouraging.

I have decided not to follow many different religions.
The one I feel comfortable with came to me naturally.

There is a difference.



Different strokes for different folks. 

I'm a semi-secular Jew, though I'd be interested in becoming more religious again when I'm in college. I celebrate the high holidays and Passover and such. My family has a VERY long history of irreligion, though. My maternal grandmother's father was born into an Orthodox family in Vilnius (capitol of Lithuania) and rejected it totally as he grew older, after working in a hat sweatshop on the Lower East Side half the day and going to night school the other half, and then married a woman, raised in a pushcart, basically, who did things like send ham sandwiches with my grandmother on her trips to visit the Orthodox cousins in Toronto during Passover, unbeknownst to my grandmother. My father grew up celebrating Christmas. One common current that seems to resonate through my family history is being a bit of an outsider and not accepting large institutions, going your own way from the rest of your family, etc.

I'm a semi-secular Jew, though I'd be interested in becoming more religious again when I'm in college. I celebrate the high holidays and Passover and such. My family has a VERY long history of irreligion, though. My maternal grandmother's father was born into an Orthodox family in Vilnius (capitol of Lithuania) and rejected it totally as he grew older, after working in a hat sweatshop on the Lower East Side half the day and going to night school the other half, and then married a woman, raised in a pushcart, basically, who did things like send ham sandwiches with my grandmother on her trips to visit the Orthodox cousins in Toronto during Passover, unbeknownst to my grandmother. My father grew up celebrating Christmas. One common current that seems to resonate through my family history is being a bit of an outsider and not accepting large institutions, going your own way from the rest of your family, etc.


So you should be getting ready for Rosh Hashanah.



Cat

So you should be getting ready for Rosh Hashanah.



Cat


We're looking for a free temple. I feel no need to pay $800 for a family membership to our local one.

We're looking for a free temple. I feel no need to pay $800 for a family membership to our local one.



That's absurd.  Why should you have to pay to pray?




Cat

That's absurd.  Why should you have to pay to pray?




Cat


Exactly my thought. Most of the absurdly high family membership costs are due to that EVERYONE goes on the high holidays, and so all the seats are used up, and you need a ticket. I'm just not buying a $100 dollar ticket or staying an $800 dollar family member to "pay to pray."

Exactly my thought. Most of the absurdly high family membership costs are due to that EVERYONE goes on the high holidays, and so all the seats are used up, and you need a ticket. I'm just not buying a $100 dollar ticket or staying an $800 dollar family member to "pay to pray."



I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to pay ANYTHING. It is one thing to "pass the plate" and if you can give what you want to give (or nothing at all) but to CHARGE??!!  Unbelievable. For those prices they should throw in an buffet dinner, complete with champaign and have a preformance by the Rolling Stones.  ;D ;D ;D




Cat

I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to pay ANYTHING. It is one thing to "pass the plate" and if you can give what you want to give (or nothing at all) but to CHARGE??!!  Unbelievable. For those prices they should throw in an buffet dinner, complete with champaign and have a preformance by the Rolling Stones.  ;D ;D ;D




Cat


Instead, I'm going to a service at a smaller Reconstructionist congregation on 9 AM on Saturday, I think.

We're looking for a free temple. I feel no need to pay $800 for a family membership to our local one.


Oh my! $800 does sound a wee bit dear, now doesn't it?  You must get a big benefits package for that fee, right?  You know, such as a complimentary prayer shawl, free rabbinical counseling, and a bris for junior should you be blessed with a son in the course of the year...
I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here, I'm just trying to figure out what the money goes to.  I dunno, I've never been to temple!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/dontknow.gif

That type of thing is why I shy away from organized religious gatherings.

Religion is personal for me anyway.

Oh my! $800 does sound a wee bit dear, now doesn't it?  You must get a big benefits package for that fee, right?  You know, such as a complimentary prayer shawl, free rabbinical counseling, and a bris for junior


(Emphasis added by poster.)

But at $800, isn't asking for a tip a little ridiculous?  :)

Oh my! $800 does sound a wee bit dear, now doesn't it?  You must get a big benefits package for that fee, right?  You know, such as a complimentary prayer shawl, free rabbinical counseling, and a bris for junior should you be blessed with a son in the course of the year...
I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here, I'm just trying to figure out what the money goes to.  I dunno, I've never been to temple!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/dontknow.gif


Essentially, it's the rights to religious school education, high holidays, ability to attend various seminars and programming through the year, and Shabbat services. It also goes towards paying the custodian staff, religious school teachers (many of whom are Russian and Israeli immigrants), various free senior and immigrant services (including English-language classes for Russian/Ukrainian immigrants), the Friday evening nosh, the Saturday morning nosh, klezmer bands, school supplies, numerous other random noshing, and stuff like library maintenance. Temples tend to include more services than churches, especially large ones. There are some people who do actually make use of the $800, since they like spend all their time there and are "into it"...but otherwise it is a "wee bit dear." This is part of the reason I don't go to that temple anymore. Also, their religious school was an excuse for sh*t. I actually wanted to learn something about Judaism. Not about Israel and about Hebrew alphabet education, and the kids were morons.

People can rant and rave all they want about so-called hypocritical religious leaders, but I look at things this way; The truth is truth. That is far and away the most important thing. One needs to see the perfection that lies beyond the imperfect people. I'm not excusing the bad things people of have done in the past in the name of their god(s), but to throw the baby out with the bathwater is silly,  IMHO. That is, of course, if you're anything but an aetheist. I can't help ya on that one.  ;)

As for my long, boring spiritual story, I'll be short. I was raised in a Southern Baptist churchgoing home. While I didn't really "get it" until much later (I did my fair share of spiritual wandering), I came around to it again later in life.

If there's anything I struggle with, it's my intellectual side that still wants to know all answers to the who/what/where/when/how/why questions that faith doesn't deal with in a straightforward manner. I guess that's the point of faith in the first place. It's taken me a long time to come to that realization. I guess that's what happens when you come from a long line of booklovers; you think you can find the answer in the Encyclopedia Britannica.  :)