"I don't think witchcraft is a religion. I would hope the military officials would take a second look at the decision they made." G.W. Bush (R), as Governor of Texas. Interviewed on ABC's Good Morning America, 1999-JUN-24. He disapproved of Wiccan soldiers being given the same religious rights as others in the military.

This quote is taken from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm

I have never heard about this until now, and I can only guess it did not ignite a firestorm because, frankly, mainstream society doesn't know or care very much about Wiccans.

If this type of ignorant statement had been made about almost any other religion, I think it would have been a safe bet he'd have been tarred and feathered(not in the literal sense of course).

Very typical of him.  >:(

[quote author=Keyser S

You're quite possibly right, Cat. He could have just been ignorant as to what Wicca was, and had the same stereotype in his head as many Americans which is of young goth kids "worshippin' the Devil". ::)

Its just very sad that someone running for President(at the time) was that ignorant about it.

[quote author=Keyser S

Myself, I see this as a "non-issue".

Myself, I have no problem of the religious choice that anybody makes.  It is their right, even if their choice involved painting themselves blue, and barking at the moon every 4th night.

However, the real issue is whether "unorganized" religions should have the same right as the organized ones in the Military.  Should a military member who belongs to "Skippy's Church of Palnetary Worship" recieve the same rights given to somebody who is Catholic or Jewish?  What if the Great Prophet Skippy states in his Holy Book that the feast to Slartiblartfast occurs every Friday, and that they must take this day off.  And that Saturday is another Holy day, because that is the day of atonement from the feast the day before?

I knew people who were Wiccan, and every other form of religion during my time in the service.  And part of the problem with trying to "Recognize" any of the members is that there is no unifying group of beliefs.  There is no one "Holy Book" or code of rules to follow.  No old system of beliefs and rules of conducting services.  Each group conducts itself as it sees fit.

And if a soldier falls on the battlefield, then how should they be handled when dying?  They all have dogtags, and a member of the clergy comes along to administer "Last Rites", or whatever other form of service is done to the dying.  For the organized riligions, that is a simply matter.  And all Clergy are trained in the rites of other religions.  A Baptist Minister in the Navy is allowed to give Last Rites to somebody who is Catholic.  It is among the many permissions granted to the military of almost all nations.  In the same way, the Catholic Church permits it's members to skip most of the Fasts.  Islamic members are also given permission to forgo Ramadan fasts for the same reason.  And most Jewish and Islamic groups permit the eating of forbidden foods, recognizing the needs of the service.

If Wiccans (or Satinists, or any other group) are able to unify and make clear agreements that the majority of groups agree to, then they should be given equal status.  But because it is largely a religion which permits (and even encourages) each group to make it's own choices, it is simply impossible to have the Military ever see them as anything more then an "alternative to religion" instead of an "alternative religion".

And I am not putting down the beliefs.  But I think the military will recognize Wiccan as a religion, about the same time they recognize the FLDS.

George Bush is a moron.



In other breaking news, grass is green and water is wet.  Film at 11.

If Wiccans (or Satinists, or any other group) are able to unify and make clear agreements that the majority of groups agree to, then they should be given equal status.  But because it is largely a religion which permits (and even encourages) each group to make it's own choices, it is simply impossible to have the Military ever see them as anything more then an "alternative to religion" instead of an "alternative religion".

And I am not putting down the beliefs.  But I think the military will recognize Wiccan as a religion, about the same time they recognize the FLDS.


So because the religion is not dogmatic enough for you, you call it an "alternative to religion" rather than an "alternative religion"? That seems a little narrowminded. And what would the FLDS be?

P.S. The military DOES recognize Wicca currently, and it was also recognized as a religion in a federal court ruling back in the 1980s.

George Bush is a moron.



In other breaking news, grass is green and water is wet.  Film at 11.

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/yelclap.gif

Yay!  See, we have some common ground after all, Sister Morph!

George Bush doesn't think witchcraft is a religion.  Well, I don't think George Bush is a Christian, so there!  OK, so check it out, witches, witchcraft, occultists, and satanists have been demonized (no pun intended) for hundreds of years.  Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Hindus caused the most of the wars and incalculable human suffering in the same period.  And yet..."witches" are the personification of evil?

One may argue that the major organized religions spiritually house the majority of humanity, and a tiny minority acribe to occultism.  And if you did so, you would be making my point precisely.

Just because you say you love Jesus doesn't make you a good person.  Yet, the Right keeps asking us to believe exactly this of Bush!
::)

"...and what do we burn apart from witches?

More witches!!"

"...and what do we burn apart from witches?

More witches!!"


...so if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood, she floats, and therefore...
A witch!

Myself, I see this as a "non-issue".

Myself, I have no problem of the religious choice that anybody makes.  It is their right, even if their choice involved painting themselves blue, and barking at the moon every 4th night.

However, the real issue is whether "unorganized" religions should have the same right as the organized ones in the Military.  Should a military member who belongs to "Skippy's Church of Palnetary Worship" recieve the same rights given to somebody who is Catholic or Jewish?  What if the Great Prophet Skippy states in his Holy Book that the feast to Slartiblartfast occurs every Friday, and that they must take this day off.  And that Saturday is another Holy day, because that is the day of atonement from the feast the day before?

I knew people who were Wiccan, and every other form of religion during my time in the service.  And part of the problem with trying to "Recognize" any of the members is that there is no unifying group of beliefs.  There is no one "Holy Book" or code of rules to follow.  No old system of beliefs and rules of conducting services.  Each group conducts itself as it sees fit.

And if a soldier falls on the battlefield, then how should they be handled when dying?  They all have dogtags, and a member of the clergy comes along to administer "Last Rites", or whatever other form of service is done to the dying.  For the organized riligions, that is a simply matter.  And all Clergy are trained in the rites of other religions.  A Baptist Minister in the Navy is allowed to give Last Rites to somebody who is Catholic.  It is among the many permissions granted to the military of almost all nations.  In the same way, the Catholic Church permits it's members to skip most of the Fasts.  Islamic members are also given permission to forgo Ramadan fasts for the same reason.  And most Jewish and Islamic groups permit the eating of forbidden foods, recognizing the needs of the service.

If Wiccans (or Satinists, or any other group) are able to unify and make clear agreements that the majority of groups agree to, then they should be given equal status.  But because it is largely a religion which permits (and even encourages) each group to make it's own choices, it is simply impossible to have the Military ever see them as anything more then an "alternative to religion" instead of an "alternative religion".

And I am not putting down the beliefs.  But I think the military will recognize Wiccan as a religion, about the same time they recognize the FLDS.



There was an incident when I was in the service about a witch who wanted the 8 Sabbats off. She was willing to work on Christmas, Easter and any other Christain holiday. I did not know this person personally but she was in my unit (I heard about this after I left). The reason why I didn't know her because I worked at Wilford Hall Medical Center, which was broken down into 3 units that had  over 3,000 enlisted (not to mention officers) in it so it was not unusual not to know everyone. But I did know her commanding officer who was very supported of her. What was amazing about that was the fact the guy was a graduate of ORU.  :o

And you are wrong about Wicca not having a "code". There is the Wicca Rede. Here is a link to the full version http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm


But the Rede can be summed up by the last few lines:

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

Believe it or not, there are more witches out there than many realize. Yes, we are a minority but more and more of my fellow witches are coming out of the "broom closet".


Cat

Here is a good forum to find out more about Wicca.

http://askawitchcommunity.org/

Here is a good forum to find out more about Wicca.

http://askawitchcommunity.org/



This is one that I am not familar with. I do see that they have a link to Witchvox which is also a great site.

http://www.witchvox.com/




Cat

There was an incident when I was in the service about a witch who wanted the 8 Sabbats off. She was willing to work on Christmas, Easter and any other Christain holiday. I did not know this person personally but she was in my unit (I heard about this after I left). The reason why I didn't know her because I worked at Wilford Hall Medical Center, which was broken down into 3 units that had  over 3,000 enlisted (not to mention officers) in it so it was not unusual not to know everyone. But I did know her commanding officer who was very supported of her. What was amazing about that was the fact the guy was a graduate of ORU.  :o

And you are wrong about Wicca not having a "code". There is the Wicca Rede. Here is a link to the full version http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm


But the Rede can be summed up by the last few lines:

These Eight words the Rede fulfill:
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"

Believe it or not, there are more witches out there than many realize. Yes, we are a minority but more and more of my fellow witches are coming out of the "broom closet".


Cat


Also there is the Law of Three Fold Return...

Oh, and yes, there are a lot more Wiccans out there than people realise and they aren't all just kids trying to be goth and/or anger their parents. My lifelong best friend's mother is a Wiccan.

[quote author=Keyser S