How can people not understand evolution?  There is scientific evidence that we homosapiens evolved from lower life-forms.  It's that simple.  When I hear people saying that it's not so, I look at them like they're speaking Greek.  I went to a Catholic high school and we learned the theory of evolution from our biology teacher. 

As for your comment about being bothered that a lot of people in this country don't have a firm understanding of biology and science, I can't help but agree.  I happen to know quite a few of the people who don't.  In college, they made life a living hell during bio class when they kept insisting that God created all life and that 2 million year old fossil is a work of fiction.  I wanted to laugh AND cry.

How can people not understand evolution?  There is scientific evidence that we homosapiens evolved from lower life-forms.  It's that simple.  When I hear people saying that it's not so, I look at them like they're speaking Greek.  I went to a Catholic high school and we learned the theory of evolution from our biology teacher. 

As for your comment about being bothered that a lot of people in this country don't have a firm understanding of biology and science, I can't help but agree.  I happen to know quite a few of the people who don't.  In college, they made life a living hell during bio class when they kept insisting that God created all life and that 2 million year old fossil is a work of fiction.  I wanted to laugh AND cry.


I have to understand it. I'm married to a scientist. :D

I have to understand it. I'm married to a scientist. :D



;D  Yes, I suppose that would make it easier for you than us other folk.  And I'm not bashing the Christians, so before any of them come galloping in here to cry that I'm generalizing, I'M NOT.  I'm talking about the specific people I've encountered in my life that feel this way.  I know many Christians (my family included) who believe in the theory of evolution. 

;D   Yes, I suppose that would make it easier for you than us other folk.  And I'm not bashing the Christians, so before any of them come galloping in here to cry that I'm generalizing, I'M NOT.  I'm talking about the specific people I've encountered in my life that feel this way.  I know many Christians (my family included) who believe in the theory of evolution. 


It does, but I've always loved science/biology stuff.

I've seen that too. It's unfortunate that some people can't at least ACCEPT the idea of evolution. Notice I said SOME PEOPLE. I didn't specify gender, race, or religion. :P

I went to a Catholic high school and we learned the theory of evolution from our biology teacher. 



"While American fundamentalists tend to interpret the Bible literally and to view Genesis as a true and accurate account of creation, mainstream Protestants in both the United States and Europe instead treat Genesis as metaphorical, the researchers say.

"Whether it's the Bible or the Koran, there are some people who think it's everything you need to know," Miller said. "Other people say these are very interesting metaphorical stories in that they give us guidance, but they're not science books."

The latter view is generally shared by the Roman Catholic Church."


Well, there ya go. 

See, its only the more fundamentalist protestant sects in this country that aspouse these views, but they have such a propaganda machine working for them and are so vocal they've been able to muddle the public debate and confuse a lot of middle of the road Americans(when it comes to spirituality vs.science).  Thats truely a disservice.  It hurts our nation in these high tech times to fall behind in this regard.

Ah, evolution.  What a can of worms that Darwin dude opened up...

I don't have enough time to talk about all I want to talk about right now, so suffice it to say (until I get home) that evolution is a well-supported theory, but it remains a theory, since there is no way of absolutely proving that such a phenomenon exists despite the overwhelming evidence.  Stay tuned...

Ah, evolution.  What a can of worms that Darwin dude opened up...

I don't have enough time to talk about all I want to talk about right now, so suffice it to say (until I get home) that evolution is a well-supported theory, but it remains a theory, since there is no way of absolutely proving that such a phenomenon exists despite the overwhelming evidence.  Stay tuned...


Of course but like I just explained above, LOTS of stuff in science is "theory".  Scientific study is always ongoing, but noone who's done any significant research in this field dismisses the basic concept of evolution.  Don't you think its kind of a misnomer to call i t a theory as if that means we should therefore dismiss it?  Thats the way its been used by those who support "intelligent design".

[quote author=

I went to a Catholic high school and we learned the theory of evolution from our biology teacher. 


Exactly.  And if you take Biology 101 at Hoy Cross, the professor does not start with the Book of Genesis!
The same applies to Protestant education of the non-fundamentalist evangelical whackjob variety.

Most of the pontificators on Creationism/ID you'll see do not believe in it themselves.  The scientists who genuinely believe in Creationism/ID are out there, but if it wasn't for the political scumbags in the Christian Right, these guys would be relegated to Coast-to-Coast A.M., whith the cranks who believe extreterrestrials built the Egyptian pyramids.

The "challenge" of the theory of evolution is not about science.  It is about politics. The entire evangelical movement is political, not religious. Moreover, it is about class structure.  The only far-right pundit I ever heard denounced "intelligent design" theory is Charles Krauthammer, M.D.  He stated clearly that the theory of evolution does not stop with the evolution of organisms.  The t.o.e. is a supporting pillar in how we have come to understand geology, chemistry, astronomy, physics, and engineering over the past 150 years.  How can you possibly say Darwin is wrong, the Earth is 6000 years old, BUT we accept the theory of plate tectonics?  Doesn't work.  I don't know about Falwell's Liberty University and Bob Jones University, they're both pretty fargone.  However, if you pursue a science degree from Notre Dame or BYU, you're not going to get a diploma if you write your thesis on how Darwin is wrong and Genesis is right!

But there's the rub, the American Right is in a pitched battle against critical thinking for the masses.  And they are succeeding.  This is why we get shocking statistics that fewer than half of Americans believe in the theory of evolution.  Uh, but what percentage of Americans don't even know what the t.o.e. is?  Lack of critical thinking is what allows people to believe "No Child Left Behind" and "school vouchers" are good ideas.  The ulterior motives of these programs is to undermine education for the working classes.  The one-two punch is the "pricing out" of college for all but wealthy students.  The Right hasn't reached the goal yet, but they're making great strides.

The plutocratic interests in America, in league with evangelical political movement, want science, philosophy, and critical thinking skills for an elite corps of prep schoolers and Ivy League types who come from the right class of people, those from the corporate elite.

That clown who said the low numbers of Americans who believe in evolution indicate that Americans are independent-minded and don't follow the "intellectual elites."  What a bunch of BS!  The theory of evolution is not some abstruce mind candy French philosophers ponder of espresso!  This is not Jean-Paul Sartre, this is not Abstract Expressionism, this is not Dialectical Materialism!  The t.o.e. is a part of every student's basic education.  It's like saying the multiplication tables is a bunch of elitist hocus-pocus jazz!

You know what I say?  I say let's get rid of the multiplication tables and go back to Roman numerals.  Them dirty Mohammedan A-rabs gave us the number zero!  Zero is a Mohammed-the-rag-picker terrorist number!

"But Einstein liked the number zero and he was Jewish."
"Hey, shut up your smart-alecky remarks and go read up on those loaves and fishes!"
;D

You know, my teacher in the 7th and 8th grades didn't believe in the theory of evolution. And he was a pretty smart guy, too. He didn't try to indoctrinate us with his views or anything, although there was one time he was discussing with us an article in the newspaper about how they'd found a fossilized cave man in the Alps, and how to him, the story threw all Darwin's theories out the window.

As Rice Cube said, evolution is just a theory, not concrete fact. And many scientific theories that were once widely accepted have since been proven false. Before the twentieth century, Newtonian physics was considered to be absolute. A hundred years ago, scientists thought the atom was the smallest particle in existence. And just a few decades ago, it was believed that cancer was a contagious disease that was spread by a virus.

And just a few decades ago, it was believed that cancer was a contagious disease that was spread by a virus.


Actually, and this is a stretch, some viruses have been linked to certain cancers, not so much causing them directly, but due to the way the viral genome integrates into the host cell's genome.  If the virus (which has stronger promoters than host cells) happens to integrate in such a way that it activates an oncogene or knocks out a critical cell death gene, cancer ensues.  So teeeeeeeeechnically, viruses can cause cancer, but whether or not the same virus can spread the cancer to someone else is a different story. 

It's the theory of evolution, not the law of evolution.  If you can scientifically disprove the theory of evolution, have at it.  The people for the supremecy of religious faith are nowhere near to scientifically disproving the t.o.e.  What they do is take the few anomalies and paradoxes within the much greater workable theory and call them proof evolution is false.  However, the scientific community is devoted to studying the same anomalies and paradoxes.  Science is not faith-based, and that's what the religious zealots hate about it.  Use Occam's razor.  The t.o.e. is the most plausible explanation for the development, adaptation, and diversification of life as we know it.  Evolution is the theory scientists work with until another theory developed using scientific principles is accepted by the majority of scientists.

Whereas the religious zealots order us to believe in an extrasensory force on the grounds that "it is for it must be."
::)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Let's continue...

[quote author=

As I was reading Rice's reply, I head on the radio Mr. Sam Seder say, "Refusal to accept reality has become a staple of conservatism."

Scientists argue.  No sh*t Sherlock!

What scientists do not do (unless they work for the Heritage Foundation) is say, "we cannot build a time machine, therefore woman was created from Adam's rib."

Good lordy-lou!
:D

If Dr. Emmett Brown ever does build that time machine, I hope he uses a Greyhound bus, so we can more quickly send the Christian right back to the 10th century when science concurred with them.
"If she weighs the same as a duck,she floats, then she's made of wood..."
"And therefore..."
"A witch! Throw her into the pond!"

Wasn't it R.E.M. that said "charles Darwin had the balls to ask"  If the Bible is correct in God created everything, then I don't see where I as a Christian can't believe that God created Evolution.  I've been told once that I'm not as smart as God, and that ants can't comprehend calculas, the impossible is perhaps possible. 

As I was reading Rice's reply, I head on the radio Mr. Sam Seder say, "Refusal to accept reality has become a staple of conservatism."

Really?  The same could be true of liberalism.  Touche.  And even scientists will form bands with the fellow scientists that share their views and ostracize those that do not...kind of like Cubs and White Sox fans, in a way.  So it's kind of expected that extremist liberals like yourself will side with windbags like Al Franken while extremist conservatives think Ann Coulter should carry their babies.  *shrug*



Scientists argue.  No sh*t Sherlock!

Yes, and the ones with the best arguments get the most grants.  But that doesn't mean they're always right either.  Foolish is the scientist that believes himself infallible.



What scientists do not do (unless they work for the Heritage Foundation) is say, "we cannot build a time machine, therefore woman was created from Adam's rib."



Unfortunately, scientists are sometimes so arrogant that they will believe that their findings are dogma...and other scientists are the sheep that will eat it right up.  Then the "dogma" is disproven and said scientist is laughed at and ridiculed.  Scientists also do not say "we cannot build a time machine, therefore adaptive radiation and punctuated equilibrium are dogma".  They always leave room for doubt, and even well-established "laws" are tested time and again to see if they can be disproven.

Yes, yes, some good points there, Rice.  I don't wish to put you too much on the spot here, but if you had to pick one or the other based on our current scientific knowledge and call it "truth," which would it be:

a. intelligent design
b. the theory of evolution

???

A little of both, as you can tell from my post.  Evolution does occur, there is no denying that...but how?  THAT is the part that evolutionary biologists have a difficult time explaining, and while their theories are clever and plausible, they are far from concrete.  So I do not absolutely discount the possibility that there is something "else" out there making stuff happen.

Sort of like how while I find the 9/11 conspiracy theories prespammersite, I will not go so far to say that such a thing never happened...because it can neither be proved nor disproved in a concrete manner (i.e....we'll just never know, will we?  ;) )

A little of both, as you can tell from my post.  Evolution does occur, there is no denying that...but how?  THAT is the part that evolutionary biologists have a difficult time explaining, and while their theories are clever and plausible, they are far from concrete.  So I do not absolutely discount the possibility that there is something "else" out there making stuff happen.

Sort of like how while I find the 9/11 conspiracy theories prespammersite, I will not go so far to say that such a thing never happened...because it can neither be proved nor disproved in a concrete manner (i.e....we'll just never know, will we?  ;) )

Oh g'wan, just say you'd choose the theory of evolution.  You're a bright fellow.  It was a hypothetical.  I wasn't asking you to swear on your life one or the other was the truth, but which is more likely?  Aw, shucks.  You just won't tell me 'coz it would feel like a concession.
;)

There's much MORE evidence of 9/11 being a total inside job than there is of the irrefutability of evolution.  The truth is out on 9/11.  The only thing the deniers can do is remain willfully ignorant and declare what is true is not true!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/pfiade.gif

Oh g'wan, just say you'd choose the theory of evolution.  You're a bright fellow.  It was a hypothetical.  I wasn't asking you to swear on your life one or the other was the truth, but which is more likely?  Aw, shucks.  You just won't tell me 'coz it would feel like a concession.
;)

The theory of evolution is very plausible, but there are holes in the theory that cannot explain certain time periods, and many times you have several conflicting theories about the same phenomenon that are equally plausible.  For everything else, you cannot absolutely rule out the intelligent design theory either. 

I'm being very open-minded here.  That is the mark of a true scientist, is someone who is willing to look at multiple angles without undyingly clinging to one theory or model.  Science is about the ability to ask questions and to perform the experiments that lead to a solution.  With evolutionary biology, there is no real way you can do a controlled experiment, so all you have is conjecture...and unfortunately, conjecture does not equal fact.  I am not saying that paleontologists, archaeologists, and evolutionists and the like are not real scientists, I'm saying that they cannot always be objective because so much of their work is based on conjecture.



There's much MORE evidence of 9/11 being a total inside job than there is of the irrefutability of evolution.  The truth is out on 9/11.  The only thing the deniers can do is remain willfully ignorant and declare what is true is not true!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/pfiade.gif


Well, you believing in the 9/11 conspiracy theory is kind of like someone believing in God over evolution, eh?  But that really depends on your perspective...see, no scientist, unless they have an obscene ego, will laud their theories as "absolute fact" unless there is no possible way to disprove it.  They always acknowledge a sliver of doubt, because if they don't and their theories are tossed out, they will be labeled as arrogant and as bad scientists, and they will be laughed at. 

By the way, just because a paper is published in a scientific journal doesn't make it right...in many cases, papers published in journals such as Science, Cell, Nature, all higher end journals, are later shown to be wrong because the author used bad controls or had a bad model.  Don't always believe what you read.

OK the whole idea is where America ranks is understandable. OK some interesting facts on that. For now we use the example the Bible Belt. Which is also called the death belt. Where more people are put to death more then anywhere else. Now that alone should tell you something. OK In the bible belt 9 states that had the gay marriage up for vote during the elections of 2004, more people voted against that. Also more elderly people voted in that election. If the gay marriage had not been on the ballot in those states. We would now be talking about Kerry as president. In every state that the gay issue was at hand, Bush won and the gay marriage was voted down.  Now so far the Gay Issue has not been up in most of the librel states. But if 20 more states pass it will become a amendment. Now why in the so called modern  country that is America, that we can get a anti gay law passed, but not a equal rights law. Hmm...

I am just waiting for the two major laws that should hit the supreme court in the next two years Rowe v Wade and the case from either Mississippi or the one from Texas that is challenging the Scopes monkey trial. With this new court being mostly republican, I think Rowe v Wade or the other issues could be over turned. Then America will fall even further in the rankings. Just a thought...The one in Texas is the most concerning for it will put the church back in our schools which is frighting...The religious right is trying to stuff this all down our throats.

OK the whole idea is where America ranks is understandable. OK some interesting facts on that. For now we use the example the Bible Belt. Which is also called the death belt. Where more people are put to death more then anywhere else. Now that alone should tell you something. OK In the bible belt 9 states that had the gay marriage up for vote during the elections of 2004, more people voted against that. Also more elderly people voted in that election. If the gay marriage had not been on the ballot in those states. We would now be talking about Kerry as president. In every state that the gay issue was at hand, Bush won and the gay marriage was voted down.  Now so far the Gay Issue has not been up in most of the librel states. But if 20 more states pass it will become a amendment. Now why in the so called modern  country that is America, that we can get a anti gay law passed, but not a equal rights law. Hmm...

I am just waiting for the two major laws that should hit the supreme court in the next two years Rowe v Wade and the case from either Mississippi or the one from Texas that is challenging the Scopes monkey trial. With this new court being mostly republican, I think Rowe v Wade or the other issues could be over turned. Then America will fall even further in the rankings. Just a thought...The one in Texas is the most concerning for it will put the church back in our schools which is frighting...The religious right is trying to stuff this all down our throats.




I don't see Roe v. Wade being overturned in my lifetime and I'm 24.

This is why I question everything.  I look at multiple sides of a question or issue, and then make up my own mind, based upon what I observe.

And even in this area, I have reached my own conclusion, over 20 years ago.  Personally, I believe in both.  A higher power (call it God, or Gaea, or space aliens) is guiding how life changes and progresses.

And what does this really matter?  I am sure that we also fall near the bottom if you compare how "Religious" our Government is.  Is this a good or bad thing?  Well, that depends on who you ask.  I am sure that most in here think that is good.  At the same time, zealots in some areas use it to attack us as being a "Godless Nation".  This is one reason why I really do not care how we compare in abstracts like this with the rest of the world.

We are a free nation, where people are able to make up their own minds what they believe.  And if they want to worship a fuzzy piece of pocket lint and say that it created the Earth, that is their right.

OK the whole idea is where America ranks is understandable. OK some interesting facts on that. For now we use the example the Bible Belt. Which is also called the death belt. Where more people are put to death more then anywhere else. Now that alone should tell you something. OK In the bible belt 9 states that had the gay marriage up for vote during the elections of 2004, more people voted against that. Also more elderly people voted in that election. If the gay marriage had not been on the ballot in those states. We would now be talking about Kerry as president. In every state that the gay issue was at hand, Bush won and the gay marriage was voted down.  Now so far the Gay Issue has not been up in most of the librel states. But if 20 more states pass it will become a amendment. Now why in the so called modern  country that is America, that we can get a anti gay law passed, but not a equal rights law. Hmm...

I am just waiting for the two major laws that should hit the supreme court in the next two years Rowe v Wade and the case from either Mississippi or the one from Texas that is challenging the Scopes monkey trial. With this new court being mostly republican, I think Rowe v Wade or the other issues could be over turned. Then America will fall even further in the rankings. Just a thought...The one in Texas is the most concerning for it will put the church back in our schools which is frighting...The religious right is trying to stuff this all down our throats.


Absoultely amazing how perspective can change everything.

It seems like this country is experiencing de-evolution. We seem to be going backwards about 100 years or so.  ::)




Cat

I don't see Roe v. Wade being overturned in my lifetime and I'm 24.

Then you had better go to the news pages for certain states. Because Rowe v Wade has already been overturned. They are just waiting on what the supreme court decides. Since Sandra Day retired, some say due to pressure.  But it doesn't matter in 9 out of 13 times this current supreme court has voted on the Republicans side. One of the key issues they voted on was the no warrent clause for searches. You and I could be walking down the street and if the feds wanted to they could stop us and search with no warrent or invade your homes with no warrent all they need thanks to this court is THE PATRIOT ACT...Also remember this court also over turned the phone tap rule. So they could now tap your phones, only thing needed for that now is just probable cause.

When you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them...

Then you had better go to the news pages for certain states. Because Rowe v Wade has already been overturned. They are just waiting on what the supreme court decides. Since Sandra Day retired, some say due to pressure.  But it doesn't matter in 9 out of 13 times this current supreme court has voted on the Republicans side. One of the key issues they voted on was the no warrent clause for searches. You and I could be walking down the street and if the feds wanted to they could stop us and search with no warrent or invade your homes with no warrent all they need thanks to this court is THE PATRIOT ACT...Also remember this court also over turned the phone tap rule. So they could now tap your phones, only thing needed for that now is just probable cause.

When you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them...



We don't have to fear that guns will be outlawed-including assult weapons which the ban on those expired and was not renewed.



Cat

We are a free nation

Not for long.

If you are concerned about freedom, then you better tell me you are politically active (and I'm not just talking about voting....I'm talking about getting out there are talking up your issues with voters and with candidates, etc.).  Because, IMO, if there's one reason people feel like they have no say in this country, it's because they're not participating -- they're watching and reading and waiting to see what decisions others will make.

It's easier than you think to make a difference in policy development -- particularly from the state level down.  I'm not active in either party right now (I'm using most of my time and energy for direct community service) but there was a time when I was active in the Republican party.  I joined my local women's organization and got on the board of directors all in a matter of a couple of months.  Most of the local and state political groups will be happy to take you and in a year you can be telling other people what the important policy tactics are if you choose to.

You are free to participate in the policy development of your town, your state, and your nation.

^ Wisdom!

Unfortunately, a lot of people flat out need to go out and VOTE in the first place...most of the time, especially in a non-Presidential year, you can barely get 40% of the peeps out to vote.  That's pathetic.  So we need to start with getting more people into the voter booths, then we can start worrying about getting them to actually care ;)

Back on topic...so, uh, how about that evolution thing?

It is a sad sad situation when only the Turks have a lower acceptance of Evolution than we do. Now granted, if this question was asked to the rest of the countries in the world - Iran, Syria, Egypt, Nigeria.. I dare say we would find the answer to be something like 'INFIDEL!' followed by lots of pointy things coming in the general direction of whoever asked the question.

It's so tricky because as has been said many times, it's not possible to prove evolution, just like it's not possible to disprove the whole story of the creation.

What I like to do is ask myself a few very simple questions.

1) Over several billion years is it not possible that numerous small accidents and developments could lead to something similar to what we call evolution? I tend to think yes.

2) Have I myself not developed over time, in new places and times developing different talents and skills?
Why yes, I believe I have.

3) Is it not possible that over a long period of time I and my descendants could eventually take these changes on board and adapt them to our physiology and psychology? Again, yes, that seems quite likely.

4) Now, is it possible that some figure that's always been and will never not be, some eternal being that's never been seen, spotted, sighted, smelt, tasted or even heard from, this all encompassing father figure that's never once been proven to exist in any way, shape or form.. is it possible that this thing just snapped it's 'fingers' and everything just..was?
That seems a little less likely to me.

4) Now, is it possible that some figure that's always been and will never not be, some eternal being that's never been seen, spotted, sighted, smelt, tasted or even heard from, this all encompassing father figure that's never once been proven to exist in any way, shape or form.. is it possible that this thing just snapped it's 'fingers' and everything just..was?
That seems a little less likely to me.


You know, kids just don't like finding out that they are "accidents".

I agree with you totally.

You know, kids just don't like finding out that they are "accidents".

I agree with you totally.


That's because you watched that informational video I sent you.

'Women - know your limitations!'

;D

That's because you watched that informational video I sent you.



well, kinda watched it.  read my recent post on the You tube thread.

I'm sick reading apologies for right-wing neo-medieval hocus-pocus dogma.

An American adult is more likely to read Ann Coulter's theory of "liberals" than Charles Darwin's "Theory of Evolution," and that's a true damn fact, and that's a problem of astronomical proportions.

The rich and powerful in this country believe in the scientific principle of evolution.  The 19th century-style debate they present to you is a fake. The need you to have "faith" and not study "fact."  It's easier for them to keep ripping you off that way!

you should definitely check out jane jacobs' swan song "dark age ahead," where she outlines decay in five key social pillars: "Community and Family; Higher Education; Science and Technology; Governmental Representation; and Self-Regulation of Learned Professions." the resurgence of creationism, and the religious fundamentalism that accompanies it, is part of the dismantling of higher education, science, and self-regulation of learned professions. it's really an effort to turn the clock back not just to before the scientific revolution, but really before the Enlightenment. big trouble!

i've been a big 50s geek lately and i think the watson and crick discovery in 1950s, coming in conjunction with all the scientific advancements of that decade, made fundamentalist christianity seem untenable because after watson and crick the human animal seemed to be integrated with a broader natural system that could be understood rationally. ever since then fundamentalists have been trying to reverse this since fundamentalism rejects evidence that contradicts it, even when that evidence is bulletproof. so basically i think we can look forward to a very backward time ahead, unless the backlash against this stuff is strong enough to put it down. and that's not going to be easy, beacuse while we were snoozing the fundamentalists and their allies pretty much got control of the entire government.

^ Wisdom!

Unfortunately, a lot of people flat out need to go out and VOTE in the first place...most of the time, especially in a non-Presidential year, you can barely get 40% of the peeps out to vote.  That's pathetic.  So we need to start with getting more people into the voter booths, then we can start worrying about getting them to actually care ;)

Back on topic...so, uh, how about that evolution thing?


:)  Good.  Back on track.  There's a connection.  Really.  Everyone who is pro-evolution and modern science (including me) has to get up and speak up and vote.  No opinion will "be heard" when that opinion is not being vocalized en masse.  Who gets the current public attention?  Extremists.  Partially because they make noise and partially because we've become an adrenaline-drive society and so they are the ones whose yelling sells newspapers and magazines and airtime.  Who needs to shout a little louder?  The intelligent, reasonable population which I believe is actually larger in numbers than anyone would ever know, but too busy taking care of practical day to day business to battle the Whacky Ones.  Evolution needs a few passionate, high-profile leaders.

As for Evolution generally:  IMO, no reasonable mind can deny it.  It also does not contradict, in my opinion, the possible existence of an intelligent, compassionate creator.  It's an intelligent and very creative process.

As for Evolution generally:  IMO, no reasonable mind can deny it.  It also does not contradict, in my opinion, the possible existence of an intelligent, compassionate creator.  It's an intelligent and very creative process.




You use words good!  So smart!  :D :)  It's like what I was trying to say, but with a thousand less words to say it with :D

You use words good!  So smart!  :D :)  It's like what I was trying to say, but with a thousand less words to say it with :D


;D  I've actually landed jobs based on this talent.

you should definitely check out jane jacobs' swan song "dark age ahead," where she outlines decay in five key social pillars: "Community and Family; Higher Education; Science and Technology; Governmental Representation; and Self-Regulation of Learned Professions." the resurgence of creationism, and the religious fundamentalism that accompanies it, is part of the dismantling of higher education, science, and self-regulation of learned professions. it's really an effort to turn the clock back not just to before the scientific revolution, but really before the Enlightenment. big trouble!

I haven't read the book, but let me give a brief viewpoint as to each of the "social pillars":

Community & Family:  Oftentimes, kids these days will disrespect their parents and elders in such a way that if it were 50 years ago, they'd be belted.  Evolution or devolution?

Higher Education:  Kids these days can't do simple math without a calculator and have worse reading comprehension skills than 50 years ago, and that is the fault of the parents, the teachers, and the kids themselves. 

Science & Technology:  Mostly, it seems that science is being applied more towards entertaining people than anything else...I guess that's sort of improving the quality of life.

Government Regulation:  I agree that the government should regulate something so extreme in regards to human cloning, and they should have stringent standards on what kinds of drugs are being administered to the citizenry.  But I do not think limits should be placed on stem cell research.  I don't know if that made sense or not.

Self-Regulation:  In a way, in biology at least, the science regulates itself by making sure that experiments are done at the cutting edge, that scientific method is followed to the T, that proper controls are in place, and that the science is properly communicated and applied.  This is probably why my mentor gets all pissed whenever somebody writes a paper and leaves out a critical control and the reviewers miss it :D



i've been a big 50s geek lately and i think the watson and crick discovery in 1950s, coming in conjunction with all the scientific advancements of that decade, made fundamentalist christianity seem untenable because after watson and crick the human animal seemed to be integrated with a broader natural system that could be understood rationally. ever since then fundamentalists have been trying to reverse this since fundamentalism rejects evidence that contradicts it, even when that evidence is bulletproof. so basically i think we can look forward to a very backward time ahead, unless the backlash against this stuff is strong enough to put it down. and that's not going to be easy, beacuse while we were snoozing the fundamentalists and their allies pretty much got control of the entire government.


Who's to say that God (or something like Him) didn't create DNA?  ;)  If you look at the beauty and design of the molecule, down to the bond angles and the grooves and the manner in which it is packaged, it's pretty miraculous and amazing that something that should otherwise be so simple can store more information than most of our computers' hard drives put together.  But there's no proof God created it either... *shrug*

I haven't read the book, but let me give a brief viewpoint as to each of the "social pillars":

Community & Family:  Oftentimes, kids these days will disrespect their parents and elders in such a way that if it were 50 years ago, they'd be belted.  Evolution or devolution?

evolution! thanks for starting with an easy one.

Higher Education:  Kids these days can't do simple math without a calculator and have worse reading comprehension skills than 50 years ago, and that is the fault of the parents, the teachers, and the kids themselves. 

for better or worse, reading comprehension isn't as prized a skill in today's society. "information processing" is much more valuable, and if i had to guess i'd wager someone from twenty years ago wouldn't have half the skills kids today have in this. also, what possible use could doing math longhand have today? people can't do it anymore because it's unnecessary.

Science & Technology:  Mostly, it seems that science is being applied more towards entertaining people than anything else...I guess that's sort of improving the quality of life.

kinda agree here. science has become disconnected with progress. that's the key problem with all these pillars as i see it, not so much that individuals are getting stupider or families are falling apart (they were never as integrated as portrayed anyway) but that the idea of collective human progress isn't driving people the way it did up until recently. i don't get the impression the species is trying to accomplish anything or better our lot on earth, just trying to traffic in more convenience and hollow blandishments. when's the last time anyone talked seriously about eliminating war or hunger? people just laugh it off as a bad joke, as though these were unworthy or unattainable goals. and in such a culture backward movement is inevitable.

evolution! thanks for starting with an easy one.

Thought you'd say that ;)  I respectfully disagree.  I expect my child(ren) to question my motives and be inquisitive and independent, because I am fair, but to downright disrespect me will invite punishment. 



for better or worse, reading comprehension isn't as prized a skill in today's society. "information processing" is much more valuable, and if i had to guess i'd wager someone from twenty years ago wouldn't have half the skills kids today have in this. also, what possible use could doing math longhand have today? people can't do it anymore because it's unnecessary.

...and so when a virus destroys the electronic capabilities of the whole planet, our offspring will be completely screwed.  Except mine, he'll know how to add :D

Even information processing requires that you have some basic reading comprehension to understand what you're doing.  Without the fundamentals, you cannot build upon knowledge.



kinda agree here. science has become disconnected with progress. that's the key problem with all these pillars as i see it, not so much that individuals are getting stupider or families are falling apart (they were never as integrated as portrayed anyway) but that the idea of collective human progress isn't driving people the way it did up until recently. i don't get the impression the species is trying to accomplish anything or better our lot on earth, just trying to traffic in more convenience and hollow blandishments. when's the last time anyone talked seriously about eliminating war or hunger? people just laugh it off as a bad joke, as though these were unworthy or unattainable goals. and in such a culture backward movement is inevitable.



I think it's because people have generally gotten lazier (myself included) and science caters towards that laziness.

i've been a big 50s geek lately and i think the watson and crick discovery in 1950s, coming in conjunction with all the scientific advancements of that decade, made fundamentalist christianity seem untenable...


don't forget the launch of Sputnik by the USSR.
(eventually the little satellite that could would be the namesake of....)

http://www.nba.com/media/spud_370_860208.jpg

I think it's because people have generally gotten lazier (myself included) and science caters towards that laziness.


This is a good point!  Not only does science....but everything just about caters to that laziness.  And therefore, groups like religious extremists, who aren't lazy, will often get the best of us!  NO LAZINESS ALLOWED (she says as she sits back in her lawn chair and takes another sip of Bud, lol).

to teach evolution is not to preach it. it's not like the teachers are going to say if it's true or not. i think all religions should be STUDIED in school. NOT PRACTICED but STUDIED. religion plays a very important role in our (humans) history. 

you should definitely check out jane jacobs' swan song "dark age ahead," where she outlines decay in five key social pillars: "Community and Family; Higher Education; Science and Technology; Governmental Representation; and Self-Regulation of Learned Professions." the resurgence of creationism, and the religious fundamentalism that accompanies it, is part of the dismantling of higher education, science, and self-regulation of learned professions. it's really an effort to turn the clock back not just to before the scientific revolution, but really before the Enlightenment. big trouble!

i've been a big 50s geek lately and i think the watson and crick discovery in 1950s, coming in conjunction with all the scientific advancements of that decade, made fundamentalist christianity seem untenable because after watson and crick the human animal seemed to be integrated with a broader natural system that could be understood rationally. ever since then fundamentalists have been trying to reverse this since fundamentalism rejects evidence that contradicts it, even when that evidence is bulletproof. so basically i think we can look forward to a very backward time ahead, unless the backlash against this stuff is strong enough to put it down. and that's not going to be easy, beacuse while we were snoozing the fundamentalists and their allies pretty much got control of the entire government.

I like Jacobs' five pillars concept.  All five pillars are crumbling because we let an elite corps of greedy madmen dominate our culture.  They have no regard of anything except money....getting more of it for themselves.  Too much is never enough.  What about God?  Trick question.  Money is God.

Here's the rub, the authoritarians would agree with Jacobs.  You could give a talk on the "five pillars" at the Heritage Foundation...and blame the usual suspects...liberalism, secularism, and judicial activism...for all!

My favorite Cassandra is Morris Berman, author of Twilight of American Culture and Dark Ages America.
http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring06/005866.htm
The quote on my siggie line doesn't come from his books, but from a comment he made in a lecture.  What I like so much about Berman is he goes straight to the end of the Elisabeth Kubler-Ross line!  You may be familiar with the Elisabeth Kubler-Ross model of dealing with dying--five stages:
Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.
All the other commentators and pundits fall within the first four.  The conservative and authoritarian pundits are into denial and anger.  The liberal, leftist, and revolutionary pundits are into anger, bargaining, and depression.  Bargaining is a particular favorite with the left--"think globally, act locally," "subvert the dominant paradigm" "teach peace," "revolution starts with you," and so forth.  They've realized the right-wingers and the authoritarians have f**ked it all up and if we don't do something we're doomed.  That's bargaining on the Kubler-Ross model.  It's like the way a man with terminal cancer prays to Jesus and eats peach pit extract.  Berman is the first one I've heard who is willing to take the "if" out of the rhetoric.  America is like like Rome in the year 400.  We are on an irreversible course for the new Dark Ages.  At last we have a man brave enough to tell us, "No, canvassing for Clean Water Action will not help us save our civilization."  So what's the good news?  The good news is, like after the fall of Rome, we can look forward to the Renaissance...in a thousand years!  Berman isn't saying "get out the vote."  He's not saying "smash capitalism."  He is saying, "It's over and it ain't coming back.  It's not your fault.  Give yourself some peace, son."  That is acceptance on the Kubler-Ross model.  Acceptance is the stage that gives us relief and peace of mind.  It's the one that allows us to philosophical and spiritual, instead of accusatory and agitated.

I don't necessarily agree with Berman, but I'm leaning in that direction!

The connection with the evolution versus creationism debate is Berman's observation of religion over science being indicative of a new medieval mentality.  It is also medieval to grant clerics equality (or even headship) with statesmen and scientists.  You can see an early example of this if you can find the photo of Nixon and Kissinger in prayer with Rev. Billy Graham as they were carpet bombing Cambodia!  The fact that our President is at the beck and call of armageddonist cranks such as Robertson, Fallwell, and Graham should sicken you!  

The new Rapture zealots, the Armageddonists, have the ear of big money and big politics.  It's guilt, you see.  The guys running the show know they are destroying the inhabitable environment of our planet. The force of greed won't let them stop.  Thus, if they make Revelation, that piece of bullsh*t the fourth century clerics appended to the New Testament,  our divine fate, then the mundane destruction they have set in motion doesn't count!  They're off the hook! However, you cannot have Revelation without Genesis, can you?

This is a good point!  Not only does science....but everything just about caters to that laziness.  And therefore, groups like religious extremists, who aren't lazy, will often get the best of us!  NO LAZINESS ALLOWED (she says as she sits back in her lawn chair and takes another sip of Bud, lol).


Who is lazy?  The person who has to work three lousy jobs to earn a living...or the CEO?  There is a myth, accepted as fact, that business executives work hard.  Furthermore, lassitude does not apply to religious zealots.  Is Rev. Fred Phelps lazy?  Nope!

I do not see where science caters to laziness.  American pop culture caters to laziness.  It always has.  However, a great many of the individuals you might call lazy are not lazy so much as they are without hope.  Without hope!!!  What's the point of working?

Who is lazy?  The person who has to work three lousy jobs to earn a living...or the CEO?  There is a myth, accepted as fact, that business executives work hard.  Furthermore, lassitude does not apply to religious zealots.  Is Rev. Fred Phelps lazy?  Nope!

I do not see where science caters to laziness.  American pop culture caters to laziness.  It always has.  However, a great many of the individuals you might call lazy are not lazy so much as they are without hope.   Without hope!!!  What's the point of working?


Max, sometimes I think you do not quite understand what I'm saying....or you take a grain of what I'm saying and run with it in a way it wasn't really meant to go.  Did you not see earlier where I said that the basic, reasonable, intelligent person is busy just dealing with day to day life?  Do you really think I don't know that some people are working hard and getting nowhere?  Come on.  I don't have time to take three paragraphs to explain to you what I meant right now.  But sometimes I think your passion for certain issues gets the best of you and the conversation goes off into curious places.

True, serious science isn't lazy.  But there's a thing today appropriately defined as "pop science" which I think has developed because many people have become intellectually and philosophically and politically lazy.  NOT EVERYONE.

^ How dare you, CeeKay...you fascist :P

:D ;)

i like morris berman and i read twilight of american culture but he can be a bit of a whiner. the processes are a little bit more complex than he makes them out to be, jacobs is a lot less polemical and the points she makes are very subtle, about how the paradigm's changing, the way we perceive and understand knowledge and custom is shifting without our quite being aware of it. for berman and a lot of other characters it's all about things were better in the old days and now They care coming to take our culture away, and i'm not sure i'd go there.

^ How dare you, CeeKay...you fascist :P

:D ;)


(the truth.....I don't really even know what a fascist is  :P)

i like morris berman and i read twilight of american culture but he can be a bit of a whiner. the processes are a little bit more complex than he makes them out to be, jacobs is a lot less polemical and the points she makes are very subtle, about how the paradigm's changing, the way we perceive and understand knowledge and custom is shifting without our quite being aware of it. for berman and a lot of other characters it's all about things were better in the old days and now They care coming to take our culture away, and i'm not sure i'd go there.


I see Berman as more jeremiad than scholarship.  Each one has its place.  Take the quote about Carter versus Reagan.  It's not that simple.  However, I believe it is more true than not.  We are accustomed to hearing the opposite, by the way.  The chattering media has talked up Reagan as a gallant statesman and Carter as an ineffectual wuss.  Tell you this much.  Carter was a nuclear physicist who stood up to the fossil fuel lobbies.  That was his Waterloo!

Max, sometimes I think you do not quite understand what I'm saying....or you take a grain of what I'm saying and run with it in a way it wasn't really meant to go.  Did you not see earlier where I said that the basic, reasonable, intelligent person is busy just dealing with day to day life?  Do you really think I don't know that some people are working hard and getting nowhere?  Come on.  I don't have time to take three paragraphs to explain to you what I meant right now.  But sometimes I think your passion for certain issues gets the best of you and the conversation goes off into curious places.

True, serious science isn't lazy.  But there's a thing today appropriately defined as "pop science" which I think has developed because many people have become intellectually and philosophically and politically lazy.  NOT EVERYONE.

Sorry Ceekay.  Tongue quicker than mind sometimes!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/nono.gif

I see Berman as more jeremiad than scholarship.  Each one has its place.  Take the quote about Carter versus Reagan.  It's not that simple.  However, I believe it is more true than not.  We are accustomed to hearing the opposite, by the way.  The chattering media has talked up Reagan as a gallant statesman and Carter as an ineffectual wuss.  Tell you this much.  Carter was a nuclear physicist who stood up to the fossil fuel lobbies.  That was his Waterloo!

carter was a scapegoat for the inevitable vietnam economic collapse. folks in government know what's up -- war is like a drunken bender, you fatten the calf of the public treasury for the corporate financiers and then you slaughter it, there's the high and then the hangover. the carter years were the hangover for the johnson/nixon years.

go ;), as davester might say.

carter was a scapegoat for the inevitable vietnam economic collapse. folks in government know what's up -- war is like a drunken bender, you fatten the calf of the public treasury for the corporate financiers and then you slaughter it, there's the high and then the hangover. the carter years were the hangover for the johnson/nixon years.

go ;), as davester might say.

Shhhh...don't say that!  They'll use the same logic to blame Clinton for the sh*tpile we're stuck in today!  Oh never mind.  They blame Clinton anyway!  If Rush can't find his Viagra bottle, it's Clinton's fault!

Maybe Berman and I are natural born pessimists.  Don't light a candle.  I'll curse the candle, not the darkness!
;)

Shhhh...don't say that!  They'll use the same logic to blame Clinton for the sh*tpile we're stuck in today!  Oh never mind.  They blame Clinton anyway!  If Rush can't find his Viagra bottle, it's Clinton's fault!

Maybe Berman and I are natural born pessimists.  Don't light a candle.  I'll curse the candle, not the darkness!
;)
well, you blame the system that starts the wars to fatten the financiers' pockets and then slaughters the lamb of the regular taxpayer who pays for the wars. they're good for the fat cats and bad for the rest of us.

good god. sometimes i think maybe i'm more radical than you are my mayng. :o help me!

i was having this argument the other night with some friends of mine, arguing, come on, you really think they wage these wars because they're abjectly terrified YOU might otherwise die? prespammersite. it's only your fear of death that makes you overlook the astonishing coincidence that they're invading a resource-rich region of the world and going through your pockets to do it.

i wonder if the ruling class falls to their knees every night and thanks whatever sick god they worship that they have such a compliant working class to rule over. i would be thankful beyond measure.

well, you blame the system that starts the wars to fatten the financiers' pockets and then slaughters the lamb of the regular taxpayer who pays for the wars. they're good for the fat cats and bad for the rest of us.

good god. sometimes i think maybe i'm more radical than you are my mayng. :o help me!

i was having this argument the other night with some friends of mine, arguing, come on, you really think they wage these wars because they're abjectly terrified YOU might otherwise die? prespammersite. it's only your fear of death that makes you overlook the astonishing coincidence that they're invading a resource-rich region of the world and going through your pockets to do it.

i wonder if the ruling class falls to their knees every night and thanks whatever sick god they worship that they have such a compliant working class to rule over. i would be thankful beyond measure.

Yeah, these rich Republicans love wars, just as long as neither they nor their kids have to go an fight!
Who has/had better military cred--Dwight D. Eisenhower or George W. Bush?  Now exam the military versus domestic spending priorities of each!
::)

Eisenhower was a Republican, but that was your grandfather's Republican party!

Maybe Berman and I are natural born pessimists.  Don't light a candle.  I'll curse the candle, not the darkness!
;)


Dawn is breaking everywhere, light a candle curse the glare, draw the curtains I don't care cause its alright ;)

Sorry Ceekay.  Tongue quicker than mind sometimes!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/nono.gif


No harm.  It's cool  8)

No harm.  It's cool  8)

Thanks.  I've irritated enough people around here as it is!