They don't conform to the Freaky Christians.



not ALL Christians are freaky.  I don't see why all Christians are always grouped into one category....not everyone is a radical (like SOME of them are).

[quote author=

not ALL Christians are freaky.  I don't see why all Christians are always grouped into one category....not everyone is a radical (like SOME of them are).




I don't think Jessica was saying that all Christians are freaky.  I think she was referring to the Christians that ARE freaky.

I don't think Jessica was saying that all Christians are freaky.  I think she was referring to the Christians that ARE freaky.




meh, they get a bad rap no matter if they are wackos or not....the few crazy ones give the normal ones a bad name. :-\\

[quote author=

not ALL Christians are freaky.  I don't see why all Christians are always grouped into one category....not everyone is a radical (like SOME of them are).



Unfortunately, you get that with ALL religious sects. All Atheists are immoral. All Muslims are terrorists. All Wiccans are devil worshippers. All Christians are Bible-thumping holier-than-thou, etc. etc. I think this world would be a kinder place if we didn't stereotype people but I'm afraid it is human nature to do so. That is why the Atheists who are NOT immoral, the Muslims who are NOT terrorists, the Wiccans who are NOT devil worshippers and the Christians who are NOT Bible-thumpers, need to speak out, and educate the masses. I think with education, maybe-JUST MAYBE these stereotypes will die. (Ok, so I'm hoping.)



Cat

Oh Jesus tap dancing Christ. Read what Sister Morphine said. That's what *I* meant.




no need to be condescending toward me. I just get sick of people lumping all of them together into one mass of craziness.  Frankly I don't care what people believe in or don't believe in.....the world works better when the majority of people mind their own business and do what THEY believe is right in life.

Unfortunately, you get that with ALL religious sects. All Atheists are immoral. All Muslims are terrorists. All Wiccans are devil worshippers. All Christians are Bible-thumping holier-than-thou, etc. etc. I think this world would be a kinder place if we didn't stereotype people but I'm afraid it is human nature to do so. That is why the Atheists who are NOT immoral, the Muslims who are NOT terrorists, the Wiccans who are NOT devil worshippers and the Christians who are NOT Bible-thumpers, need to speak out, and educate the masses. I think with education, maybe-JUST MAYBE these stereotypes will die. (Ok, so I'm hoping.)



Cat


Stereotypes will never die, you're talking to a guy with long hair and God(or The Wiccan person you believe in or just the way things are I guess) knows that even that simple Stereotype of Girls have long hair, boys have short hair will never die.

no need to be condescending toward me. I just get sick of people lumping all of them together into one mass of craziness.  Frankly I don't care what people believe in or don't believe in.....the world works better when the majority of people mind their own business and do what THEY believe is right in life.


Can I have my head back now that you've chewed it off? ::)

Stereotypes will never die, you're talking to a guy with long hair and God(or The Wiccan person you believe in or just the way things are I guess) knows that even that simple Stereotype of Girls have long hair, boys have short hair will never die.



I think the "hair" stereotype is dying. Today, I see more men with long hair than I see women. And to bring this into the religious theme of this thread, Jesus is often portrayed with long hair.


(BTW, it the Goddess that I believe in.  ;) )



Cat

(BTW, it the Goddess that I believe in.  ;) )



Cat


To be honest, I'm not sure what I believe in. I was raised Catholic, but that sort of soured on me. I guess you can just say that I believe there is a higher power. It's not much more than that. :-\\

Although the Satanic Bible has some nice passages in it. :P

To be honest, I'm not sure what I believe in. I was raised Catholic, but that sort of soured on me. I guess you can just say that I believe there is a higher power. It's not much more than that. :-\\

Although the Satanic Bible has some nice passages in it. :P



As I have always said, religion is VERY personal. I don't think anyone can tell you what to believe or not believe. That is why I don't like orginized religions-you HAVE to believe what they tell you to believe. There are some aspects of Wicca that I don't believe. However, the ONE Commandment is "Do what you will. Harm none." So for me to believe or not believe is fine-just as long as harm is not done.



Cat

Wicca is pretty open to interpretation.  Its a VERY personal religion, it doesn't even have an equivalent to church really(except maybe crystal shops).  Some people believe in the Goddess, some in the God and Goddess, some people are actually atheistic and just believe in nature itself- its diverse.

[quote author=

[quote author=

[quote author=

^The DFW area has a somewhat vibrant neo-pagan community.  Lots of crystal shops in the area.

in case of rapture this profile will be unmanned.

or rather, unflamingoed.

dude, i was driving out to kings dominion with a couple friends and somehwo the topic of apocalypse came up (well, okay, because i'm always bringing up apocalypse, is why) and driver chick knew ALL that sheesh, man. all the book of revelation stuff, when the mark of the beast is gonna get busted out, when the locusts happen vs. the frogs, versus the earthquake, omg, so freaky. and then she gets into the whole find jesus and you don't have to worry about it. on the trip back she was talking to herself nonstop, real quiet and muttery. :o

anyway, yeah, most people in this country claim to be religious. usually the folks who claim to be something other than jewish or christian hovers somewhere around 10, 20 percent? athiests proper less than 10?

oh, well. what can you do? people are terrified of dying, so much so they'll dream up a white-bread hippy who's going to reach down at the last minute and give them paradise. pretty to think so, wish i could believe it. but let's face it, believe that stuff and you have to buy the rest of it -- you know, the world's 6000 years old and noah had two of each animal in his boat and all that stuff. people say, oh, well, the bible's metaphorical and i'm all, no. either you buy it or you dont, but the bible does not equivocate. it doesn't say, now i'm gonna claim god made the world in six days but perhaps i actually mean 15 billion years.

the book was obviously written thousands of years ago by someone who had no idea the world was round. PERIOD.

Well, revealing it on an Internet board that can be viewed by anyone at anytime isn't exactly keeping it private, but wow, are you serious? Is that part of the country really that backward?


i'm guessin' you didn't grow up in texas?

Well, revealing it on an Internet board that can be viewed by anyone at anytime isn't exactly keeping it private, but wow, are you serious? Is that part of the country really that backward?






I live in Georgia.  Now, further south in the state you go, down towards Valdosta, you will find places that still think the Civil War is going on.  We stopped at a rest area near the Georgia/Florida border, and saw an "Coloreds Only" sign still hanging over a water fountain.  You will still see homes flying the Rebel flag, not the Stars and Stripes. 

So yes, I believe there are places in this country that a person who is an atheist would feel uncomfortable living in. 

I live in Georgia.  Now, further south in the state you go, down towards Valdosta, you will find places that still think the Civil War is going on.  We stopped at a rest area near the Georgia/Florida border, and saw an "Coloreds Only" sign still hanging over a water fountain.  You will still see homes flying the Rebel flag, not the Stars and Stripes. 

So yes, I believe there are places in this country that a person who is an atheist would feel uncomfortable living in. 


Are you kidding? A coloreds sign? Whoa.

Yeah, in Sparta where I grew up (I live 15 minutes away now, in Cookeville), I'd see Confederate flags at school every day. And this one shirt said, "If this shirt offends you, it's doing its job." That really got to me because I'm  1/4 black.

Are you kidding? A coloreds sign? Whoa.


Yup.  It looked like they never bothered taking it down some 40-odd years ago.  It wasn't still being "used" though, as I saw a little girl who was white use that fountain before we left, so I don't know why it was still there.  Probably to make some kind of "statement", but the little girl using the fountain anyway was a powerful enough statement, in my mind.

i'm guessin' you didn't grow up in texas?


No, I grew up and still live in southern VA, which is a fairly unique area due to all the tourists, retirees, and military presence (read: diversity).

While I'm posting, I feel compelled to differentiate between tradition and intolerance. A few years ago, Colonial Williamsburg (practically my backyard) had a slave sale re-enactment. That is a touchy subject, but those who were there, including the black actor, did it for historical reasons. In these days, only a truly f**ked up individual would take pride, pleasure, or wish for the 'good ole days' in the selling of another human being as property.

Civil War Re-enactments are not inherently racist either. I know several who do so from a historical perspective rather than a 'the South's gonna rise again' one.

A few years ago in Yorktown, there was a KKK rally. I can say that protestors outnumbered klans-"men" at least 5-1.

Back to the topic, I find it truly sad that there are parts of this country where someone wouldn't feel safe because on their religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

i was watching the show "30 days" and on it, it said that atheists are the least trusted group in america. below muslims and homosexuals. (two other groups that are discriminated against) what's so bad about atheists. just because they don't believe in a supreme being, doesn't mean they have no morals.


  I don't know anything about 30 Days, but much of Christian morality reflects common sense.  However, the inability to measure the damage caused by an arbitrary standard is something I see more exclusively in religions descended from Abraham...

  Thank God for Christian morality.  If it weren't for Junipero Serra, we may never have discovered that indigenous Americans make terrible slaves because they're lazy, slothful beasts groove ;) on...

i was watching the show "30 days" and on it, it said that atheists are the least trusted group in america. below muslims and homosexuals. (two other groups that are discriminated against) what's so bad about atheists. just because they don't believe in a supreme being, doesn't mean they have no morals.


It all depends on the person, not their beliefs.

Sadly, Atheists have gotten a bad rap in this country, because of those who believe that everybody should share their belief.  Most atheists do not care if a city puts a Christmas Tree up in the town square, or has a copy of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or has children say "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.  They know that since their is no God, the words and actions are meaningless.  And as long as they do not hurt anybody else, what is the harm if they make other's happy?

But then you have those I call "Fundamentalist Atheists", or "Born Again Atheists".  These are the ones that are so sure that there is no God, that they are trying to stamp out any mention of anything even remotely religious.  Even something that has become so secular as "Santa Clause".  These are the people that force the County of Los Angeles to change it's seal, because on the top of the image of a mission (which it only a small part of the seal) has a cross on it.  Never mind that the County was founded and settled through the Missions, it is "religious" and must be changed.

I was very agnostic at one time, and my ex-wife is an Atheist (of the lapsed Catholic variety).  We even went to my step-daughter's school when the teacher was going to far in the "moment of silence", by having her place her hands together and bow her head.  But we had a conference to make sure the rules were followed, not to stop the fact they had them at all.  Be both agrees that while it is our right not to have our daughter be made to pray in school, it is also the right of other students to pray if they choose to do it.

To me, as long as you do not use religion (or lack thereof) to infringe on the rights of others, you are free to worship (or not worship) in any way you see fit.  And I view Atheism as just another religion: the religion of nihilism, where at the end there is nothing.  And I do not see it as a bad thing, it is their choice.

It all depends on the person, not their beliefs.

Sadly, Atheists have gotten a bad rap in this country, because of those who believe that everybody should share their belief.  Most atheists do not care if a city puts a Christmas Tree up in the town square, or has a copy of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or has children say "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.  They know that since their is no God, the words and actions are meaningless.  And as long as they do not hurt anybody else, what is the harm if they make other's happy?

But then you have those I call "Fundamentalist Atheists", or "Born Again Atheists".  These are the ones that are so sure that there is no God, that they are trying to stamp out any mention of anything even remotely religious.  Even something that has become so secular as "Santa Clause".  These are the people that force the County of Los Angeles to change it's seal, because on the top of the image of a mission (which it only a small part of the seal) has a cross on it.  Never mind that the County was founded and settled through the Missions, it is "religious" and must be changed.

I was very agnostic at one time, and my ex-wife is an Atheist (of the lapsed Catholic variety).  We even went to my step-daughter's school when the teacher was going to far in the "moment of silence", by having her place her hands together and bow her head.  But we had a conference to make sure the rules were followed, not to stop the fact they had them at all.  Be both agrees that while it is our right not to have our daughter be made to pray in school, it is also the right of other students to pray if they choose to do it.

To me, as long as you do not use religion (or lack thereof) to infringe on the rights of others, you are free to worship (or not worship) in any way you see fit.  And I view Atheism as just another religion: the religion of nihilism, where at the end there is nothing.  And I do not see it as a bad thing, it is their choice.


   On the Pledge, you just reminded me of something.  In the third grade we bagan reciting the Pledge every morning...first in English and then in Spanish... 

   I figured out, about ninth grade, that they could make me stand, but they couldn't make me recite.  That actually might have been my first moment of independent political empowerment...

   We were never "forced" to recite, per se, but nobody bothered to tell us our participation was optional.  That, in itself, is an underlying theme of American human interaction that I have come to despise...

   I would support the removal of mention of God from our currency.  However, I think God and public schools are a little different.  I think the Christian god has a deserved place in public schools: next to the Muslim God, the Jewish God, a host of indigenous American gods, Buddha, the Triune goddess, a Catholic-Santeria pantheon...essentially well secured within comparative theology and social sciences...

  And yes, I think comparative theology is slightly irrelevant for high school.  But only slightly groove ;) on...

we've all declared war on christmas, you know?

actually, i wouldn't call myself athiest. i'm that age-old copout, "spiritual but not religious".

Well said. 


It all depends on the person, not their beliefs.

Sadly, Atheists have gotten a bad rap in this country, because of those who believe that everybody should share their belief.  Most atheists do not care if a city puts a Christmas Tree up in the town square, or has a copy of the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or has children say "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.  They know that since their is no God, the words and actions are meaningless.  And as long as they do not hurt anybody else, what is the harm if they make other's happy?

But then you have those I call "Fundamentalist Atheists", or "Born Again Atheists".  These are the ones that are so sure that there is no God, that they are trying to stamp out any mention of anything even remotely religious.  Even something that has become so secular as "Santa Clause".  These are the people that force the County of Los Angeles to change it's seal, because on the top of the image of a mission (which it only a small part of the seal) has a cross on it.  Never mind that the County was founded and settled through the Missions, it is "religious" and must be changed.

I was very agnostic at one time, and my ex-wife is an Atheist (of the lapsed Catholic variety).  We even went to my step-daughter's school when the teacher was going to far in the "moment of silence", by having her place her hands together and bow her head.  But we had a conference to make sure the rules were followed, not to stop the fact they had them at all.  Be both agrees that while it is our right not to have our daughter be made to pray in school, it is also the right of other students to pray if they choose to do it.

To me, as long as you do not use religion (or lack thereof) to infringe on the rights of others, you are free to worship (or not worship) in any way you see fit.  And I view Atheism as just another religion: the religion of nihilism, where at the end there is nothing.  And I do not see it as a bad thing, it is their choice.

  On the Pledge, you just reminded me of something.  In the third grade we bagan reciting the Pledge every morning...first in English and then in Spanish... 

  I figured out, about ninth grade, that they could make me stand, but they couldn't make me recite.  That actually might have been my first moment of independent political empowerment...

  We were never "forced" to recite, per se, but nobody bothered to tell us our participation was optional.  That, in itself, is an underlying theme of American human interaction that I have come to despise...

  I would support the removal of mention of God from our currency.  However, I think God and public schools are a little different.  I think the Christian god has a deserved place in public schools: next to the Muslim God, the Jewish God, a host of indigenous American gods, Buddha, the Triune goddess, a Catholic-Santeria pantheon...essentially well secured within comparative theology and social sciences...

  And yes, I think comparative theology is slightly irrelevant for high school.  But only slightly groove ;) on...



I agree that religions should be taught in school. But, it should be "Christians believe....." or "Muslims believe...." NOT "This is what the Bible (or the Torah, or the Q'aran, etc.)  says so therefore it is true". I think a majority of the problem is that people do not understand other beliefs. Without understanding, usually there is fear. That is why many fear Muslims (they're terrorist  ::) ) or Wiccans (they're devil worshippers  ::) ).  If people had a basic understanding about other religions, there wouldn't be that fear, which leads to war.



Cat

in case of rapture this profile will be unmanned.

people say, oh, well, the bible's metaphorical and i'm all, no. either you buy it or you dont, but the bible does not equivocate. it doesn't say, now i'm gonna claim god made the world in six days but perhaps i actually mean 15 billion years.

the book was obviously written thousands of years ago by someone who had no idea the world was round. PERIOD.


back then, man could not comprehend 122,334,345,345,563,464,56........  years. still, most people can not comprehend such a long period of time.
now i'm not saying any of it is true, however i do believe the bible is, not so much metaphorical, but more so abridged, for our understanding.

back then, man could not comprehend 122,334,345,345,563,464,56........  years. still, most people can not comprehend such a long period of time.
now i'm not saying any of it is true, however i do believe the bible is, not so much metaphorical, but more so abridged, for our understanding.
hmm, that's an interesting idea, actually.

I agree that religions should be taught in school. But, it should be "Christians believe....." or "Muslims believe...." NOT "This is what the Bible (or the Torah, or the Q'aran, etc.)  says so therefore it is true". I think a majority of the problem is that people do not understand other beliefs. Without understanding, usually there is fear. That is why many fear Muslims (they're terrorist  ::) ) or Wiccans (they're devil worshippers  ::) ).  If people had a basic understanding about other religions, there wouldn't be that fear, which leads to war.

Cat


Cat, I agree with you.  But it's harder than I ever thought to learn these things.  I have tried on a variety of message boards to ask people of other faiths about their beliefs.  Few people answer my questions in a straightforward manner.  More often, I end up with information about what they do NOT believe or why they think Christianity is offensive -- even though I do not relate my inquiries to Christianity in any way.  (On the other hand, I've found a few people here and there who have been very helpful). 

we've all declared war on christmas, you know?

actually, i wouldn't call myself athiest. i'm that age-old copout, "spiritual but not religious".


Jehovah's bystander.

Cat, I agree with you.  But it's harder than I ever thought to learn these things.  I have tried on a variety of message boards to ask people of other faiths about their beliefs.  Few people answer my questions in a straightforward manner.  More often, I end up with information about what they do NOT believe or why they think Christianity is offensive -- even though I do not relate my inquiries to Christianity in any way.  (On the other hand, I've found a few people here and there who have been very helpful). 



Try this website:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm


They give straightforward info about many religions.



Cat

we've all declared war on christmas, you know?

actually, i wouldn't call myself athiest. i'm that age-old copout, "spiritual but not religious".

What John Gibson and all the christo-fascist mental midgets at FOX News don't seem to get is that December 25th, aka Christmas, was not a big deal in the 18th century.  Our Founding Fathers would be rather repelled by the b*tching coming from the Right here!

oh, well. what can you do? people are terrified of dying, so much so they'll dream up a white-bread hippy who's going to reach down at the last minute and give them paradise. pretty to think so, wish i could believe it. but let's face it, believe that stuff and you have to buy the rest of it -- you know, the world's 6000 years old and noah had two of each animal in his boat and all that stuff. people say, oh, well, the bible's metaphorical and i'm all, no. either you buy it or you dont, but the bible does not equivocate. it doesn't say, now i'm gonna claim god made the world in six days but perhaps i actually mean 15 billion years.

the book was obviously written thousands of years ago by someone who had no idea the world was round. PERIOD.


  When referring to the Bible, Tia, it is important to differentiate Old and New Testaments...

  I tend to see Christianity, essentially, as a fabricated religion intended to threaten the power of Rome.  Seriously.  A look at the political climate of first century Judaea, the ineptitude and mismanagement of several Roman governors and the messianic fervor of a large body of more extreme Jews, you see what is, or is on the verge of, taking place...

  There is an interesting passage from the Dead Sea Scrolls (thought to be written by the monastic Jewish sect known as the Essenes) referring to a great battle between the "Sons of Light" and the "Sons of Darkness".  This has been interpreted to mean a great messianic struggle between themselves and their supporters (The Sons of Light) and, basically, the occupying Romans (The Sons of Darkness) groove ;) on...

Any civilization that takes literally ancient religious texts is headed for perpetual warfare.

What John Gibson and all the christo-fascist mental midgets at FOX News don't seem to get is that December 25th, aka Christmas, was not a big deal in the 18th century.  Our Founding Fathers would be rather repelled by the b*tching coming from the Right here!


  Compare Christmas with the Roman holiday (no, not the Gregory Peck movie, silly...) Saturnalia...

  Dionysius Exiguous (Dennis the Short)

  Interesting article, linked above, on a calendar more favorable to Christianity.  Talk about revisionist groove ;) on...

 

  Okay, one more thing then I'll step aside...

  Who's watched Martin Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ..?  I enjoy that movie to no end, but what's more, I really think Nikos Kazantzakis was onto something, there...

  Portraying Jesus as a Zealot on the fence ("Love, or the axe...") with His inner conflict really got at the heart of the early Christian movement (my idea of it, anyway...)...

  I highly recommend, to those interested, the Nikos Kazantzakis book that the movie is based upon groove ;) on all...

   Okay, one more thing then I'll step aside...

   Who's watched Martin Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ..?  I enjoy that movie to no end, but what's more, I really think Nikos Kazantzakis was onto something, there...

   Portraying Jesus as a Zealot on the fence ("Love, or the axe...") with His inner conflict really got at the heart of the early Christian movement (my idea of it, anyway...)...

   I highly recommend, to those interested, the Nikos Kazantzakis book that the movie is based upon groove ;) on all...

I hate to use the cliche, "the book's better than the movie," but the book's better than the movie!  I really enjoyed the book, Kazantzakis is a master of description.  With just the words he could transport you back to Nazareth 2000 years ago! 
God bless Scorsese, he's a great film maker, but LTOC was a dud, IMO.  Just a question of taste, mind you.  You enjoy the movie to no end.  I saw the movie in the theater when it came out, and it felt like the movie had no end!  I dozed off!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/sleepy1.gif
The credits were rolling, and my gf was all, "Sniff...that was so beautiful."  And I was all, "Huh? Wha'appen?"
Nope, the most entertaining thing about the LTOC movie was the angry zealots outside the cinemas with their silly placards!

I hate to use the cliche, "the book's better than the movie," but the book's better than the movie!  I really enjoyed the book, Kazantzakis is a master of description.  With just the words he could transport you back to Nazareth 2000 years ago! 
God bless Scorsese, he's a great film maker, but LTOC was a dud, IMO.  Just a question of taste, mind you.  You enjoy the movie to no end.  I saw the movie in the theater when it came out, and it felt like the movie had no end!  I dozed off!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/sleepy1.gif
The credits were rolling, and my gf was all, "Sniff...that was so beautiful."  And I was all, "Huh? Wha'appen?"
Nope, the most entertaining thing about the LTOC movie was the angry zealots outside the cinemas with their silly placards!


  As most books are, IMO...

  My girlfriend shared your sentiments regarding LTOC film.  I'm a Roman history freak and have been studying the subject for the better part of 26 years.  Biblical epics and Sunday school are to blame for that.  Girlfriend wants nothing to do with it, thank you very much.  Perhaps the film has been so intriguing and fascinating to me because I knew what I was looking for when I went in.  Much more, and at the same time, much less than your garden variety sword and sandal epic.  Still misunderstood...

  Heh, I still get misty when:

  Jesus (Willem Dafoe): "We'll pick up and axe and cut the Devil's throat.  We'll fight him wherever his is.  In the sick, the rich, even in the Temple.  I'll lead you.  If you have sheep, give them away.  If you have family, leave them..." 

  "I believed in love, now I believe in this..." *holds up an axe*

  "Who's with me?!"

  Judas (Harvey Keitel): *Falls at Jesus' feet and kisses them*

  "Adonai..."

  The Scorsese movie is what inspired me to read the Kazantzakis book, and the book has affected me in a personal and profound way groove ;) on...

now i'm not saying any of it is true, however i do believe the bible is, not so much metaphorical, but more so abridged, for our understanding.



Not so much abridged for out understanding as mis-interpreted to tell us what they(the various religions) wanted us to hear, and believe. 

   
   The Scorsese movie is what inspired me to read the Kazantzakis book, and the book has affected me in a personal and profound way groove ;) on...




I haven't seen the movie or read the book.  But after reading this bit of chat, I think I will do both.  My rental for this weekend perhaps.  Thanks.

Not so much abridged for out understanding as mis-interpreted to tell us what they(the various religions) wanted us to hear, and believe. 


As somewhat of a rebel Christian, my steady seeking of Jesus has led me to question the Bible more than claim it as the "literal, inerrant Word."   I'm with you on the mis-interpretation idea.  Those who did the early editing were certainly not pure in their motive.  (I'm surprised the Bible doesn't quote Jesus as saying, "there will be only one book of Holy scriptures for your guidance" -- if this was the case, wouldn't he have told us?).

As somewhat of a rebel Christian, my steady seeking of Jesus has led me to question the Bible more than claim it as the "literal, inerrant Word."    I'm with you on the mis-interpretation idea.  Those who did the early editing were certainly not pure in their motive.  (I'm surprised the Bible doesn't quote Jesus as saying, "there will be only one book of Holy scriptures for your guidance" -- if this was the case, wouldn't he have told us?).


Correct to a T.

The early editing of the bible was generally done to simplify, then Constantine came along and decided to change everything in it to fit his world view.

Accepting anything the bible Say's is like watching a PBS special, interspliced with footage from Fox News.

Correct to a T.

The early editing of the bible was generally done to simplify, then Constantine came along and decided to change everything in it to fit his world view.

Accepting anything the bible Say's is like watching a PBS special, interspliced with footage from Fox News.


Oh, well, I wouldn't go that far at all.  I believe there is much truth and wisdom within those pages -- I have experienced that for myself.  But it is a huge series of books which actually interract with each other and a cursory study cannot come close to revealing what lies between the covers.  Still, interpretations can and do run amok depending on the heart of the reader.

Oh, well, I wouldn't go that far at all.  I believe there is much truth and wisdom within those pages -- I have experienced that for myself.  But it is a huge series of books which actually interract with each other and a cursory study cannot come close to revealing what lies between the covers.  Still, interpretations can and do run amok depending on the heart of the reader.


Translation has played a big part in the confusion as well.

With the finding of lost scrolls that were never edited or translated, we've seen that in some manners they hardly match up to the bible of today.

Translation has played a big part in the confusion as well.

With the finding of lost scrolls that were never edited or translated, we've seen that in some manners they hardly match up to the bible of today.


  Exactly...

  The vagaries of history are interesting challenges to work around.  If we look at a document like the colonial American Declaration of Independence, we might call it valid as a document, but nowhere in it do we glean an absolute truth.  A census record from long ago will tell us how many people were counted; we cannot imagine that census records were any more accurate than they are today, and nobody ever asserts it.  If we look, for instance, at the Bible, we can either accept its veracity or not...

  On the pro side are the scrolls and information collected through the archaeological record.  On the con side is the human factor, and I'm not even referring to the King James Version; rather, I point to the various bishops and whatnot involved in the selection of the Hebrew Scriptures combined with the four recognized gospels and various epistles.  Certainly the reason for setting the canon this way made sense to these people, but for the same subjective reasons that the Bible may make sense to some but not to others.  It is a subjective assessment, and here is where the veracity of the Bible collapses; much of what the Christians strove to erase as heretical was only heretical because it challenged the authoritarian structure of the young church.  Protestants, for instance, have done little to change the Bible that they inherited from Catholocism; by and large, they've merely removed a few books from it.  What has not been done is the complete reassembly of all of the texts we have, reassessment of their merits, and reconstruction of a new canon.  Thus, to match the current Bible to its ancient forerunners accomplishes little, except to declare that it's a "decent" translation...

  In the end, though, it says nothing about whether the stories actually reflect the history they describe, and that comparison is left to faith.  It was a tough, military and political fight that made so much of the world accept the Bible...that in itself is an interesting historical facet groove ;) on...

I haven't seen the movie or read the book.  But after reading this bit of chat, I think I will do both.  My rental for this weekend perhaps.  Thanks.


  I thank you and hope that you do enjoy both.  This very minute I'm dusting off my copy of the book groove ;) on...

 

Personally I tend to think whoever the original authors of the Old Testament were, they wrote it as more of a mythology and history of the nation of Israel- nothing more.

   I tend to see Christianity, essentially, as a fabricated religion intended to threaten the power of Rome.  Seriously.  A look at the political climate of first century Judaea, the ineptitude and mismanagement of several Roman governors and the messianic fervor of a large body of more extreme Jews, you see what is, or is on the verge of, taking place...

   There is an interesting passage from the Dead Sea Scrolls (thought to be written by the monastic Jewish sect known as the Essenes) referring to a great battle between the "Sons of Light" and the "Sons of Darkness".  This has been interpreted to mean a great messianic struggle between themselves and their supporters (The Sons of Light) and, basically, the occupying Romans (The Sons of Darkness) groove ;) on...


That is one large difference between the oldest "Holy Books" of Christianity, and those that compose what we know as "The New Testament".

The oldest books have a very anti-Roman slant.  In these books (circa 1st Centure CE), you see Christians as simply another sect of Jews, no different then the Essenes, Sudduces, or Pharasees.  They considered themselves "Jews first", and followed all of the old laws and traditions.  A perfect example of the early writings is "Revelations", in which everything written about the Antichrist is a rdirect reference to Rome and the Roman Empire.

However, thanks to Paul (ne Saul), we saw "Christianity" break apart into another religion.  First came his battles with the original Disciples, about questions such as "Do converts need to follow dietary laws", and "Do converts need to follow circumscision".  It was the practice of some churches allowing in Gentiles that eventually led to the split from the older Jewish faith.

Then a century or so later, along comes Constantine.  This leads to Rome becoming the Holy See, and the Pontifex Maximum changing from a High Priest of a Pagan sect, to the High Priest of Christianity.  And of course you now have all of these older books, who portrayed the Romans as the killer of Jesus, and the Jews who were his chosen people.  By now the Jews were heritics of another religion, so what is simpler then a little re-editing, moving the blame of the Crucifixion from Rome to Jews.

If anything, early Christianity followed the Essenes more then any other branch of the Jewish faith.  And since the center of that sect was around the region that Jesus was born, it is no wonder.  Myself, I simply consider all Abrahamic Religions to be sub-sects of the same faith.  I see much more similarity between them then I see differences.

That is one large difference between the oldest "Holy Books" of Christianity, and those that compose what we know as "The New Testament".

The oldest books have a very anti-Roman slant.  In these books (circa 1st Centure CE), you see Christians as simply another sect of Jews, no different then the Essenes, Sudduces, or Pharasees.  They considered themselves "Jews first", and followed all of the old laws and traditions.  A perfect example of the early writings is "Revelations", in which everything written about the Antichrist is a rdirect reference to Rome and the Roman Empire.

However, thanks to Paul (ne Saul), we saw "Christianity" break apart into another religion.  First came his battles with the original Disciples, about questions such as "Do converts need to follow dietary laws", and "Do converts need to follow circumscision".  It was the practice of some churches allowing in Gentiles that eventually led to the split from the older Jewish faith.

Then a century or so later, along comes Constantine.  This leads to Rome becoming the Holy See, and the Pontifex Maximum changing from a High Priest of a Pagan sect, to the High Priest of Christianity.  And of course you now have all of these older books, who portrayed the Romans as the killer of Jesus, and the Jews who were his chosen people.  By now the Jews were heritics of another religion, so what is simpler then a little re-editing, moving the blame of the Crucifixion from Rome to Jews.

If anything, early Christianity followed the Essenes more then any other branch of the Jewish faith.  And since the center of that sect was around the region that Jesus was born, it is no wonder.  Myself, I simply consider all Abrahamic Religions to be sub-sects of the same faith.  I see much more similarity between them then I see differences.

No matter how much you point out the similarities in the tenets of the Abrahamic faiths--Judaism, Christianity, Islam--it seem to be human nature to find piddling differences and kick the crap out of one another!
It was the same with communism---
The Leninists hated the Trotskyites, and vice versa.  The Progressive Labor Party used to rank on the Revolutionary Communist Party, and the Socialist Worker's Party used to rank on the other two, and around and around in circles!

REG:
Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the f**king Judean People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah...
JUDITH:
Splitters.
P.F.J.:
Splitters...
FRANCIS:
And the Judean Popular People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
LORETTA:
And the People's Front of Judea.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
REG:
What?
LORETTA:
The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG:
We're the People's Front of Judea!
LORETTA:
Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG:
People's Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS:
Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG:
He's over there.
P.F.J.:
Splitter!

--from Monty Python's The Life of Brian, scene 7. 
(it's a lot funnier to watch than to read!)

Athiests rock.  I mean, what would we do if we did not have them to talk about.

Madlayn Murray O'Hair rocked... Too bad she got into that nasty encounter with her former Athiest Club treasurer or else we all would still be vilifying her!  :D

Athiests rock.  I mean, what would we do if we did not have them to talk about.

Madlayn Murray O'Hair rocked... Too bad she got into that nasty encounter with her former Athiest Club treasurer or else we all would still be vilifying her!   :D

Did they ever figger out what in the hell happened to MMOH?
???

Cat, I agree with you.  But it's harder than I ever thought to learn these things.  I have tried on a variety of message boards to ask people of other faiths about their beliefs.  Few people answer my questions in a straightforward manner.  More often, I end up with information about what they do NOT believe or why they think Christianity is offensive -- even though I do not relate my inquiries to Christianity in any way.  (On the other hand, I've found a few people here and there who have been very helpful). 


  I've had similar experiences with queries regarding Christianity on various internet fora to be either snubbed or met with hostility.  I can certainly understand...

  I'm of the opinion that the membership has grown thick-skinned, wary and defensive as a result of atheist gatecrashers...

  Visit the SecularWeb's "Internet Infidels" board.  I was a regular member for a time.  It can be a little rough, but there are some tough theistic members there that can still give the atheists a run for their money groove ;) on...

   I've had similar experiences with queries regarding Christianity on various internet fora to be either snubbed or met with hostility.  I can certainly understand...

   I'm of the opinion that the membership has grown thick-skinned, wary and defensive as a result of atheist gatecrashers...

   Visit the SecularWeb's "Internet Infidels" board.  I was a regular member for a time.  It can be a little rough, but there are some tough theistic members there that can still give the atheists a run for their money groove ;) on...


I know what you mean.  Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat about it.  My efforts to present information about my experiences with Christianity have been thwarted by Christians who interrupt straightforward discussion with arguments.  I'm not trying to argue.  I'm trying to inform and become informed.  There's a big difference.  I'll check out the Infidels over the weekend.  Thanks.

I know what you mean.  Feel free to PM me if you'd like to chat about it.  My efforts to present information about my experiences with Christianity have been thwarted by Christians who interrupt straightforward discussion with arguments.  I'm not trying to argue.  I'm trying to inform and become informed.  There's a big difference.  I'll check out the Infidels over the weekend.  Thanks.

 

  What I've learned from debating atheism...

  Why engage them..?  As long as I don't force atheists' kids to pray, or tell them they don't have authority over their selves, their voices, or their minds, I generally won't run into trouble.  As a person who must, technically, qualify myself as a theist in past debates (not here, though...) I can tell you that it's very easy to accept atheism in the world, and it's very easy to get along in an atheist-inclusive world.  But one thing I love about atheism, and one thing I would love to inject into the theist camp, is innovation of knowledge and the need to discover the answers to those difficult questions that theistic philosophies generally prefer you don't ask...

  But in the long run, no atheist is going to bother proving conclusively his/her own philosophy.  God doesn't justify His ways to those who believe in Him.  Why should an atheist do for the theists what they won't even ask of their God..?

  Show an atheist God, and then ask him to disprove it.  Until then, there is no way to disprove what isn't there...

  Just so you know where my head is at keep ;) grooving...

Did they ever figger out what in the hell happened to MMOH?
???




She was murdered along with her son and granddaughter.

Did they ever figger out what in the hell happened to MMOH?
???


Yeah.  She and her son had a decent amount of money and a fairly big valuable coin collection.  Some guy who had been treasurer of the Athiest Fan Club (who MMOH had fired due to malfeasance) decided to get even.  So he kidnapped MMOH, her son, and somebody else as I recall.  Shot everybody, chopped 'em up into pieces, threw 'em in a ditch and burned the remains.  Nice guy.

Anyway, this genius hid the swag from the robbery in one of those "U Store it" thingies.  Unfortuately for the perp, some local teenage kids broke into the locker and took the coins and started pawning 'em all over town.  Cops found out, kids told them where they got the coins, and they traced it all back to the perp who IIRC is in jail now for life.

The guy led the cops to the remains as I recall.  Not much more left but carbon, but apparently there was enough dental work remaining to make a positive ID of MMOH.

Yeah.  She and her son had a decent amount of money and a fairly big valuable coin collection.  Some guy who had been treasurer of the Athiest Fan Club (who MMOH had fired due to malfeasance) decided to get even.  So he kidnapped MMOH, her son, and somebody else as I recall.  Shot everybody, chopped 'em up into pieces, threw 'em in a ditch and burned the remains.  Nice guy.

Anyway, this genius hid the swag from the robbery in one of those "U Store it" thingies.  Unfortuately for the perp, some local teenage kids broke into the locker and took the coins and started pawning 'em all over town.  Cops found out, kids told them where they got the coins, and they traced it all back to the perp who IIRC is in jail now for life.

The guy led the cops to the remains as I recall.  Not much more left but carbon, but apparently there was enough dental work remaining to make a positive ID of MMOH.

OK, now I recall a TV documentary about U-Store-It discovery.  It was a mystery for a while there.