CHEAP LABOR?
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>>> Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?
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This always gets to me.

Do you know what percentage of American's make "Minimum Wage"?  20%?  15%?  10%?

All wrong.  Try 2%.  Just over half a million people in this country make "Minimum Wage" (2004 statistics).  Another 1.5 make "Below Minimum Wage", the vast majority of them in areas where they work off of comission, and not at an hourly wage.  Another group is those who actually make a sallary, but work so many hours that it falls below what they would make hourly.  After all, we all know of managers who make &3k a month, but who work 80+ hours a week.  When you seperate the comission and salary workers from the people who actually make an hourly wage, you come up with less then .5% who actually make "Minimum Wage".

"Minimum Wage" is a fallacy.  Nobody but entry level works for "Minimum Wage".  Heck, I know people who work stacking boards at a lumber yard making $7, and that is a decent income in this area.  Even if you start at McDonalds, you get a raise after 6 months.  So unless somebody is bouncing from entry lever job to entry level job every 5 months, it is pretty hard to imagine somebody who is not making more then minimum after 6 months.

Companies pay more money for skilled workers.  And they give raises in order to keep workers.  It is far cheaper to give somebody a $1 an hour raise then it is to replace them, and train somebody else to do the job.  And as skills increase, the employee is more valuable.  It is foolish to let your best employees leave constantly.

Myself, I oppose a Federal "Minimum Wage", because it is pointless.  However, I do support the idea of "Local Minimum Wage" standards.  If you make $8 an hour in Southern Alabama, that is a really good living wage.  However, $8 an hour in Los Angeles will have you living in your car.  $8 an hour in New York City will leave you living under a cardboard box.  Let each region have it's own wage requirements, that will allow people to survive in that area.  That way you do not screw up the economy of a small town in rural Georgia, simply because the amount they pay is not enough to survive with in Chicago.  Let the local economy and standard of living set the standard, not the Federal Government.

I absolutely agree. Rampant poverty and social insecurity has far more hidden costs than implementing the kinds of labor policies, tax structure, and job security that built the American middle class in the first place.  But you know what?  When you let CEOs, business lobbyists, anti-taxation agitators, and a few rich families be the real real power in your society that's what you get.  The super-rich don't pay those hidden costs.  You and I do.  The super-rich take annoint themselves as the champions of capitalism and what makes this country great. The revese is true.  The super-rich pay lawyers to get around taxes.  The corporate executives receive taxpayer subsidies to relocate operations outside the country and outside the bounds of minimum wage laws and OSHA regulations.  The plutocratic heirs concern themselves with getting the estate tax repealed.  If you've got eight figures, you can pretty much do what you want.

MYTH: Ronald Reagan cut our taxes.
REALITY: Ronald Reagan cut taxes on the wealthy and raised taxes on everybody else via increased payroll taxes.

Minimum wage laws and organized labor saved our so-called "free enterprise" system.  The bosses killed the labor unions in the private sector.  Without the influence of organized labor American standards of living (except for the rich) have plummeted over the past thirty years.  The minimum wage has less than half the purchasing power it had in 1968.  Did you ever read John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath?  If we had no federal minimum wage law, we would go straight back to those circumstances.  Mushroom is right.  Very few people actually make the $5.15 an hour federal minimum wage.  Most states have a minimum wage a dollar or two higher.  There are tens of millions of American workers earning those minimuma wages and just slightly higher.  You cannot live a secure life on that kind of hourly rate, even if you work 80 hours a week.

Here in the Northeast, if you have two kids to support and you make double the federal minimum wage, you qualify for food stamps.  You struggle just to keep your car on the road and your rent paid.  One stroke of bad luck, and you are totally screwed.

The true Ronald Reagan legacy is this:  The answer to every human need is "f**k you!"  The truth-makers tell us if you're poor it's because you are stupid, lazy, and irresponsible, and you deserve it.  The American proletariat nods their heads in agreement and accepts economic oppression as God's righteous mandate.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.  Ah, there is for the top 2% of the wealth bracket to whom our federal government is in service.  They pass all social costs of their rape of our economy back to the working class  and just walk away with all the loot.  Then they pay guys like Rush Limbaugh seven figures per annum to say the opposite is true:
"five percent of the American population is pulling the wagon, the other ninety-five percent is riding in it,' said El Rushbo recently.  Other pundits such as Fred Barnes, Morton Kondracke, and John Stossel say the same thing.  They're just not quite as obtuse.

Now the plutocracy is stealing elections and ginning up tales of thwarted terrorist plots in order to keep the working classes in a state of fear.  They are promoting racism against immigrants while they profit handsomely from the slave wages they pay them.

Illegal immigrants do not qualify for social welfare benefits, by the way.

Illegal immigrants do not qualify for social welfare benefits, by the way.


Uhhh, excuse me?  Who says they do not?

One frequent scam done in Border States (like California). is for a pregnant mother to enter the US late in her third trimester.  When she goes into labor, she then reports to the closest County Hospital.

Hospitals can not refuse to give aid to somebody, reguardless of income or ability to pay.  In this way, the new mother gets high quality medical care, free of chrage.  And since the child is born in the US, they are citizens.  The mother will often return home to Mexico, and later move to the US, with her child as the "sponsor".  Or sometimes they simply stay in the US, immediately going on aid programs to support thie child, who is of course a US citizen.

And in many areas of the country (like California), Social Workers are not allowed to report the citizenship status of anybody who applies for, or is given aid.  An Illegal Alien can walk into a welfare office in LA, and walk out with Food Stamps, housing vouchers, MediCal, and any other aid available.  And there have been many cases of Migrant Workers who apply for and receive aid in several different locations.

Do not think I am white-washing the problem.  Most Migrant and Tansient workers are honst decent people, but in every group there are those who will abuse any system they come across to get ahead.  About the only program Illegals and Migrants are not able to collect from is Social Security, and this is because they either have fraudulent Social Security cards, or work "under the table", where it is not deducted from their pay in the first place.

But in most areas, they are free to collect any other form of aid available.  Just go to any Hispanic area, and you will find stores that specialize in selling only products that are available with WIC.  I know in LA there are a lot of these, and they do a great business.  I have never seen such stores in other communities, by the way.

Speaking of minimum wage, there should be one in the form of a living wage minimum.  I don't know if this has been addressed but Chicago has passed a living wage ordinance aimed at the big box stores that don't pay living wages, offer unaffordable benefits to its lowest paid workers.  When asked how this would effect the price of goods the city coucillor who answered, I forget who it was, said that it shouldn't.  The big box store Costco won't be affected by the ordinance because it is already paying its lowest paid workers $10 an hour with $3 dollars over that in benefit dollars.  THey manage there business to the betterment of the business and its workers.  Rare in the USA today.

Speaking of minimum wage, there should be one in the form of a living wage minimum.  I don't know if this has been addressed but Chicago has passed a living wage ordinance aimed at the big box stores that don't pay living wages, offer unaffordable benefits to its lowest paid workers.  When asked how this would effect the price of goods the city coucillor who answered, I forget who it was, said that it shouldn't.  The big box store Costco won't be affected by the ordinance because it is already paying its lowest paid workers $10 an hour with $3 dollars over that in benefit dollars.  THey manage there business to the betterment of the business and its workers.  Rare in the USA today.


Why just apply this to "big box" stores?  You mean it is OK for a slum lord to underpay his workers?

"Living wage minimums" are nothing but a big pander to the labor unions who have not been able to penetrate the big stores.  If the politicians really cared about the little guy they would not restrict the law to the big businesses.

Uhhh, excuse me?  Who says they do not?

One frequent scam done in Border States (like California). is for a pregnant mother to enter the US late in her third trimester.  When she goes into labor, she then reports to the closest County Hospital.

Hospitals can not refuse to give aid to somebody, reguardless of income or ability to pay.  In this way, the new mother gets high quality medical care, free of chrage.  And since the child is born in the US, they are citizens.  The mother will often return home to Mexico, and later move to the US, with her child as the "sponsor".  Or sometimes they simply stay in the US, immediately going on aid programs to support thie child, who is of course a US citizen.

And in many areas of the country (like California), Social Workers are not allowed to report the citizenship status of anybody who applies for, or is given aid.  An Illegal Alien can walk into a welfare office in LA, and walk out with Food Stamps, housing vouchers, MediCal, and any other aid available.  And there have been many cases of Migrant Workers who apply for and receive aid in several different locations.

Do not think I am white-washing the problem.  Most Migrant and Tansient workers are honst decent people, but in every group there are those who will abuse any system they come across to get ahead.  About the only program Illegals and Migrants are not able to collect from is Social Security, and this is because they either have fraudulent Social Security cards, or work "under the table", where it is not deducted from their pay in the first place.

But in most areas, they are free to collect any other form of aid available.  Just go to any Hispanic area, and you will find stores that specialize in selling only products that are available with WIC.  I know in LA there are a lot of these, and they do a great business.  I have never seen such stores in other communities, by the way.

Yes. I stand corrected. There is the "Born in the U.S.A." catch.  You cannot deny citizenship to a person born on U.S. soil.  Thus, the baby is entitled.  You cannot administer healthcare to a baby and deny healthcare to its mother.  The inhumane nativist bigots would like to do both though.  They also want to change the Constitution to deny citizenship to the children of immigrants.  The illegal advantages immigrants take with social services requires government agencies and businesses to look the other way.  I don't have a problem with illegal immigrants getting healthcare and food money if they can.  They are my people, my country.  My country is the international proletariat.
I don't call the impeverished person's fight for survival a "scam," thank you very much.

Why just apply this to "big box" stores?  You mean it is OK for a slum lord to underpay his workers?

"Living wage minimums" are nothing but a big pander to the labor unions who have not been able to penetrate the big stores.  If the politicians really cared about the little guy they would not restrict the law to the big businesses.

If we want people to get off of "welfare," let's start with  Wal-Mart.  Wal-Mart receives all kinds of corporate subsidies from the U.S. government, even though they are the biggest copany in the country.  Then Wal-Mart has the temerity to leech from the stated medicaid programs because they are too greedy to pay their workers a decent wage or provide benefits.  I wouldn't mind paying and extra fifty cents for that toaster if I knew it was going to improve the lives of the workers.

Sam Walton used to personally drive down to Wal-Mart work sites and say, "If you boys even think about unionizing, you're all fired!"  That's why he got a lifetime achievment award from the Bush crime family.  It's time to tell Wal-Mart and their ilk, if you want to do business in our state, you have to start treating workers with dignity and respect.

This always gets to me.

Do you know what percentage of American's make "Minimum Wage"?  20%?  15%?  10%?

All wrong.  Try 2%.  Just over half a million people in this country make "Minimum Wage" (2004 statistics).  Another 1.5 make "Below Minimum Wage", the vast majority of them in areas where they work off of comission, and not at an hourly wage.  Another group is those who actually make a sallary, but work so many hours that it falls below what they would make hourly.  After all, we all know of managers who make &3k a month, but who work 80+ hours a week.  When you seperate the comission and salary workers from the people who actually make an hourly wage, you come up with less then .5% who actually make "Minimum Wage".

"Minimum Wage" is a fallacy.  Nobody but entry level works for "Minimum Wage".  Heck, I know people who work stacking boards at a lumber yard making $7, and that is a decent income in this area.  Even if you start at McDonalds, you get a raise after 6 months.  So unless somebody is bouncing from entry lever job to entry level job every 5 months, it is pretty hard to imagine somebody who is not making more then minimum after 6 months.

Companies pay more money for skilled workers.  And they give raises in order to keep workers.  It is far cheaper to give somebody a $1 an hour raise then it is to replace them, and train somebody else to do the job.  And as skills increase, the employee is more valuable.  It is foolish to let your best employees leave constantly.

Myself, I oppose a Federal "Minimum Wage", because it is pointless.  However, I do support the idea of "Local Minimum Wage" standards.  If you make $8 an hour in Southern Alabama, that is a really good living wage.  However, $8 an hour in Los Angeles will have you living in your car.  $8 an hour in New York City will leave you living under a cardboard box.  Let each region have it's own wage requirements, that will allow people to survive in that area.  That way you do not screw up the economy of a small town in rural Georgia, simply because the amount they pay is not enough to survive with in Chicago.  Let the local economy and standard of living set the standard, not the Federal Government.


  I'm not going to disagree with your post.  Gets to me, too...

  I'm curious about what people expect of their economies.  Capitalists, for instance, talk about financial empowerment; As I observe, money becomes more important than the people it serves.  The people, in fact, often seem to exist to serve the money and its economy...

  Many capitalistic justifications include empowerment of the self.  While I'm all for this, the result seems to be that people are focused entirely on their "selves" and their immediate profits; as Marx noted: If you pass a law to hang all the Capitalists, they will sell you the rope...

  Nobody talks about Capitalism in terms of the necessity of resource supply versus human (market) demand, but in terms of empowerment and "self and wealth".  I turn to Oscar Wilde, who noted that the goal of Socialism is to reconstruct society in a way that makes poverty impossible.  Hardly a slavery, eh..? 

  To know that nobody's going to be stealing from you out of hunger?  To know that everyone can afford education?  This, of course, as opposed to Capitalism, which requires a poor working class: we're talking about minimum wage, here..?  Aside from pointing out that the minimum wage sucks because Capitalists don't want to pay a fair wage to begin with, we might note that without this poor class that has little to no buying power, goods would be too expensive to make a Capitalist economy work.  One of the reasons Capitalism has poor people is that it needs them groove ;) on...

The Chicago minimum wage applys to all businesses in the city, it is the Big Boxes(except Costco) who fought hardest against it(no surprise, the ones who could afford it most)

If we want people to get off of "welfare," let's start with  Wal-Mart.  Wal-Mart receives all kinds of corporate subsidies from the U.S. government, even though they are the biggest copany in the country.  Then Wal-Mart has the temerity to leech from the stated medicaid programs because they are too greedy to pay their workers a decent wage or provide benefits.  I wouldn't mind paying and extra fifty cents for that toaster if I knew it was going to improve the lives of the workers.

Sam Walton used to personally drive down to Wal-Mart work sites and say, "If you boys even think about unionizing, you're all fired!"  That's why he got a lifetime achievment award from the Bush crime family.  It's time to tell Wal-Mart and their ilk, if you want to do business in our state, you have to start treating workers with dignity and respect.


If Wal-Mart is getting any subsidies these should stop, no disagreement there.  However Medicaid is not a subsidy of business.  Businesses are businesses, not hospital funding corporations.  I don't see people setting up insurance policies for their housekeepers, babysitters, groundskeepers, and so on.  Company-paid health insurance is something that started out as a way for companies to compete for workers, and it worked well to attract workers.  Somewhere along the line some people distorted this concept into thinking that companies MUST provide health care.

Unions have penetrated all sorts of American companies big and small.  What honks union hustlers off the most is that they have not been able to crack the Wal-nut at all.  They can't sleep because they have been out maneuvered and have failed on a colossal scale.  Mind you there are all sorts of companies out there with viscious, underhanded managers that the unions have overcome.  But unions have not cracked Wal-Mart because they have stupidly tried a "political approach".  This will fail, of course, because Wal-Mart has more money to bribe politicians than any union ever will.

For the past decade or so, Unions started speding all of their time hobnobbing with politicians and blowing their wadd on political contributions.  That's why the SEIU broke free of the AF of L - CIO, because they (correctly) saw that the AFL-CIO was not serious about recruiting and organizing, and thoguth they could LEGISLATE representation.

Interstigly, the largest industrial union in the US, the United Steelworkers (who represent more glass workers, rubber workers, and nurses than they do steel workers) is at the forefront of wanting to abolish the "secret ballot" process for Union elections.  They want the non-secret "card check" process.

However in an episode of uptimate hypocrisy, when they tried to organize a steel mill in Middletown Ohio which had overwhelmingly chosen a rival union in such a "card check", they filed suit with the NLRB demanding a secret ballot instead.  The NLRB disagrees, and the rival union (The IAM) overwhelmingly won the right to represent.

If Unions want to crack the Wal-nut then they have to do a SERIOUS job of grass roots organizing.  Unions cracked the steel industry BEFORE all the various existing labor laws were in place.  And they did not do it by greasing politicians.


epilogue:  I hate shopping in Wal-marts and I avoid them like the plague.  Much bad karma there in terms of how people (customers) conduct themselves, as well as the unbridled capitalism approach in the whole brain-dead layout.  But that said, if people want to shop there and work there, more power to them I guess.

Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs

Yes, because we all know that NO native-born American is a construction worker! ::)

My own father is in construction, and he can tell you, wages are SH*T now compared to 25 years ago, and theres one reason for it.  Illegal workers.

I guess its too bad, eh?  Let my father eat cake? (snooty voice)"Oh well thats too bad I guess he should have gone to college like a REAL white person".

I know how these clueless yuppies in the 'burbs think. Believe it or not for all of you OFFICE RATS out there some people actually WORK for a living in this country still.

   Nobody talks about Capitalism in terms of the necessity of resource supply versus human (market) demand, but in terms of empowerment and "self and wealth".  I turn to Oscar Wilde, who noted that the goal of Socialism is to reconstruct society in a way that makes poverty impossible.  Hardly a slavery, eh..? 

   To know that nobody's going to be stealing from you out of hunger?  To know that everyone can afford education?  This, of course, as opposed to Capitalism, which requires a poor working class: we're talking about minimum wage, here..?  Aside from pointing out that the minimum wage sucks because Capitalists don't want to pay a fair wage to begin with, we might note that without this poor class that has little to no buying power, goods would be too expensive to make a Capitalist economy work.  One of the reasons Capitalism has poor people is that it needs them groove ;) on...


One problem is that you are mixing up Feudalism, 18th Century Capitolism, and Capitolism in the 21st Century.

In a feudal society, the only requirement is warm bodies, and lots of them.  There is no requirement for education, because none is needed.  The serfs (peasents), need nothing more then a strong back.  And because infant mortality is so high, the women also have to have babies by the truckload.  This helps to ensure a future supply of warm bodies.

The only management comes from a rigid caste, and upward mobility is impossible.

In 18th Century Capitolism it was little better.  Most jobs were repetitive, and required little intelligence.  Upper level managers sometimes rose up from the workers, but not very often.  Lower and middle management was often composed of former line workers, because they had to be able to instruct new hires in their jobs.

Pay was low, and people were replaceable because there was a constant supply from the rural areas, people who thought that moving to a city was an improvement over walking behind a mule or ox all the time.

By the 1950's though, things started to change.  Education was no longer a luxury, it was a requirement for even the lowest paying jobs.  You can't even work at a McDonalds now unless you are able to read.  Factory jobs nowadays look less and less like a factory, and more and more like a laboratory.  Computers have infiltrated almost every job, and unless you are educated and able to adapt to the new technology, you may find yourself left behind.

And wages have to grow with the ability to use the technology.  Training times have increased, from a few hours until for some positions it takes 2 months to train a replacement.  And if you do not pay your employees well, they will leave and go to your competition, where they can put them to use with the training that you gave them.

Capitolism with starvation wages can only survive if it is working with an uneducated workforce, in tasks that do not require much intelligence.  China can get away with this, because the majority of their exports are of basic goods.  This is why they sell so many tables, toys, and clothes.  However, how many people can name even one Chinese car company?  I have seen Chinese motorcycles, and they are a nightmare to work on.  The parts are substandard, and the electronics resemble something from the 1960's (and that was in a 2004 bike).

However, the US is not a supplier of basic goods.  It has become a world leader in computers, electronics, and advanced technology.  China may have COSCO, where you can get cheap furniture and baby toys.  But only the US has created companies like Hughes, Boeing, RCA, AT&T, TRW and Intel.  India may be a country to go to if you want to give customers cheap technical support or to write cheap and dirty software, but you go to Apple, Red Hat, Novell, or MicroSoft if you want world class software for a Fortune 100 business.

And this is not going to change any time in the future.  Even truck driving is becomming more highly computerized.  We see truck drivers come in every week, buying laptops.  They now keep their log books on computer, use GPS software to plan routes, and send and recieve updates to their schedule through wireless internet connections.

Education and educated employees is a requirement in the 21st Cehntry in an industrialized nation, if they want to do anything other then assemble basic components.  And more and more companies are offering college programs, to help their employees get even more education.  And they hope that the employee will remain with them, giving them more experience and better work.

Myself, I see this as a symbiosys.  Capitol and Labor need each other, because without one the other will whither and die.  Without Capitol, Labor will revert back to an agrarian, survival standard of living.  WIthout Labor, Capitol will not be able to do anything.

And don't forget, Labor is also the customer base of the products that Capitol makes.  It does no good to build a new generation of product, if nobody is able to afford to buy it.  Detroit does not survive making cars, if they pay their workers so little that they can't buy cars.  China does not have that problem, because the majority of their products are made for export.  They do not worry about their citizens being able to afford to buy the televisions, desks, chairs, and computers that they are building.

I am not saying that some companies do not exploit their employees.  Exploitation does happen, but those companies rarely last more then a few years.  Internal pressures, pressure from shareholders and unions, and pressure from the Government (either Federal, or State and Local) force them to either change, or go out of business.

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Yea.  And no "Native Born" Americans pick crops, or work as a Janitor, or as a Maid, mow lawns, or work in sweatshops making crap wages sewing clothes.

The sector of this country that is hurt worst by illegal immigrant labor is the sector that can afford it the worst: manual labor.



Exactly!  But it seems some Americans want to forget that there are American families that are still essentially working class.  Sometimes its as if they think every American is white collar or something, or maybe they just don't mind selling us up the river.

If Wal-Mart is getting any subsidies these should stop, no disagreement there.  However Medicaid is not a subsidy of business.  Businesses are businesses, not hospital funding corporations.  I don't see people setting up insurance policies for their housekeepers, babysitters, groundskeepers, and so on.  Company-paid health insurance is something that started out as a way for companies to compete for workers, and it worked well to attract workers.  Somewhere along the line some people distorted this concept into thinking that companies MUST provide health care.

epilogue:  I hate shopping in Wal-marts and I avoid them like the plague.  Much bad karma there in terms of how people (customers) conduct themselves, as well as the unbridled capitalism approach in the whole brain-dead layout.  But that said, if people want to shop there and work there, more power to them I guess.

The civilized world has figured out healthcare is not something a person "earns," or "deserves," it is something a person "needs."  America is still pushing the notion that the healthcare is like everything else on the market.  The more money you have, the more you can buy.  The more money you have, the more virtuous a person you are, therefore the longer and healthier you deserve to live.  Some of the creeps who hold this point of view also call themselves Christians.  To whom would Jesus deny healthcare? 
The more people in your country who do not have access to healthcare, the less healthy and productive your country will be.  American no longer rates in the top 10 among nations in categories of positive vital statistics.  In some cases, not even the top 30.  In other news, America is no longer the richest country in the world.  If you insist on believing so, you may need an antipsychotic.
It took Britain the devastation of two world wars and the loss of a worldwide empire before she started feeling humble enough to institute national health.  I don't think the current ruling class in America is capable of anything but delusions of grandeur and pandering to special interests.  If we had reasonable men of conscience and character, such as Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich, in charge of things, we might be on the right track.  Sigh, but we don't.  Instead we have the psychos and the pipsqueaks running the joint.

I don't know what to tell you, LB, if you cannot see how Wal-Mart fobs off its healthcare costs onto the taxpayers.  You want to say corporations are not obliged to provide people with healthcare.  You are right.  That's why we need to nationalize healthcare.  It would be simpler, cheaper, and more comprehensive than the current hodgepodge of usurious private plans that leave tens of millions with no access. National healthcare would also make our corporations more competitive.  The American ruling class still suffers from the delusion that the turn of the 20th century was a halcyon time of free market paradise.  Do they want to return to a 42-year life expectancy and tuberculosis-ridden tenements for the masses?  Not sure.  I tend to think they're just in denial, but they are also a totally mean-spirited lot.  could go either way!  It's better for GM to go out of business than to grant the uppity serfs safe and secure lives!

Wal-Mart is contemptuous of its employees.  They offer a healthcare plan.  However, you are for more likely to get fired before you have worked for Wal-Mart long enough to qualify.  Even if you do qualify, the premium is so exorbitant you can't afford it anyway.  Thus, Wal-Mart stores are notorious for handing new employees instructions on applying for Medicaid.  That is why I say Wal-Mart, in their wretched greed, wants to fob off the cost of doing business on the taxpayers.  The same right-wingers who defend Wal-Mart's "right" to deny employees basic human needs also support eliminating Medicaid programs.

Thus I keep repeating, the answer "f**k you" to every human need does not suffice.

As far as "Subsidies for Wal-Mart", that is news to me.

The only thing like this I have heard of is when a community offers them (or any other large business) tax credits to move to an area.  This is always a temporary measure, normally lasting for no more then a few years.  And that is not unusual.

Last year, Circus City built a new store in the area, the only one within 100 miles.  They built a large extension on the local shopping mall, in an area where before had only been an ugly drainage ditch.  They built a large store, and employed over 100 people.  I know that part of the deal was property tax credits for 3 years.  But this is the first (and so far only) "Big Box" electronics store in the area, and a welcome addition.

Last month, they started construction on a Best Buy, that is about 2 miles from the Circus City.  This store moved in because it was shown that there was enough market in the area to support the store.  And there was no tax credits offered.  And this store will be the biggest one in the region, roughly 40% bigger then the Circus City that came in the year before.

About 5 years ago, Hyundai wanted to build a new factory, and Alabama offered them large tax incentives to locate to this state.  They built 3 large production and manufacturing centers throughout the state (and several smaller ones).  The last time I heard, they have become the 3rd largest employer in the state.  The added jobs (starting wage: $14 per hour) has been a huge boost to the community, and there is a 6 month waiting list for new jobs.

If somebody has a problem with "tax credits" and "subsidies", then they should oppose all such programs.  That means no subsidies to farmers, forresters, or any other industry.  And in many cases, the end result will mean exportation of jobs to other countries, which will offer even larger payoffs for industry to move there.

As far as "Subsidies for Wal-Mart", that is news to me.

The only thing like this I have heard of is when a community offers them (or any other large business) tax credits to move to an area.  This is always a temporary measure, normally lasting for no more then a few years.  And that is not unusual.

Last year, Circus City built a new store in the area, the only one within 100 miles.  They built a large extension on the local shopping mall, in an area where before had only been an ugly drainage ditch.  They built a large store, and employed over 100 people.  I know that part of the deal was property tax credits for 3 years.  But this is the first (and so far only) "Big Box" electronics store in the area, and a welcome addition.

Last month, they started construction on a Best Buy, that is about 2 miles from the Circus City.  This store moved in because it was shown that there was enough market in the area to support the store.  And there was no tax credits offered.  And this store will be the biggest one in the region, roughly 40% bigger then the Circus City that came in the year before.

About 5 years ago, Hyundai wanted to build a new factory, and Alabama offered them large tax incentives to locate to this state.  They built 3 large production and manufacturing centers throughout the state (and several smaller ones).  The last time I heard, they have become the 3rd largest employer in the state.  The added jobs (starting wage: $14 per hour) has been a huge boost to the community, and there is a 6 month waiting list for new jobs.

If somebody has a problem with "tax credits" and "subsidies", then they should oppose all such programs.  That means no subsidies to farmers, forresters, or any other industry.  And in many cases, the end result will mean exportation of jobs to other countries, which will offer even larger payoffs for industry to move there.

You paint a rosy picture of the "Big Box" retail economy. I disagree with all, but here is an article that summarizes some of the problems of tax credits and subsidies for Wal-Mart.  It's not complete, but it is clear.

Warning: anti-Wal-Mart bias--
http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/community/taxpayer-intro.html

If somebody has a problem with "tax credits" and "subsidies", then they should oppose all such programs.  That means no subsidies to farmers, forresters, or any other industry.  And in many cases, the end result will mean exportation of jobs to other countries, which will offer even larger payoffs for industry to move there.
I agree.  It amazes me how people can twist the facts to see what they want.  Yes, Wal-Mart has received about $1B in subsidies, but how much $$ have they returned to the communities/government through income/sales/property taxes?  The $1B figure for Wal-Mart is calculated on the ENTIRE "lifetime" of Wal-Mart.  In other words, it's not a single year's amount, it's since the first store opened so it spans 20+ years or so.  I wonder what other "chains" have received over the lifetime of the franchise?  Wonder what McD's has received?  Best Buy?  Kohl's?  A Jewel recently opened in the town where I live and it also received $1M+ in "tax breaks" (in the form of a sales-tax "credit", but a portion was also a property tax moratorium for 2 years).  They were estimating (originally) that it would take them 1 1/2 - 2 years to "use up" the credit.  More recent figures suggest it will take <1 year.  However, someone who was trying to bad-mouth Jewel (who IS unionized, btw) would totally ignore the sales/property/income taxes this particular store paid AFTER it "used up" the "subsidies" it received upon openin and simply report the subsidies received.


Oh, and another little tidbit of information......our local Wal-Mart pays a higher starting wage for cashiers than the Jewel.....

epilogue:  I hate shopping in Wal-marts and I avoid them like the plague.  Much bad karma there in terms of how people (customers) conduct themselves, as well as the unbridled capitalism approach in the whole brain-dead layout.


I shop at Wal-Mart a lot and the ones I've been to, I haven't seen any of what you just described.  If by "bad karma in how customers conduct themselves", you're going to find that just about anywhere you go.  Wherever large quantities of people gather, you can bet on at least one being a moron and making life difficult for those around them.  I wouldn't say that's indicative of a Wal-Mart.  I also don't understand this comment: "unbridled capitalism approach in the whole brain-dead layout".  Are you against big stores?  Are you against capitalism?

I shop at Wal-Mart a lot and the ones I've been to, I haven't seen any of what you just described.  If by "bad karma in how customers conduct themselves", you're going to find that just about anywhere you go.  Wherever large quantities of people gather, you can bet on at least one being a moron and making life difficult for those around them.  I wouldn't say that's indicative of a Wal-Mart.  I also don't understand this comment: "unbridled capitalism approach in the whole brain-dead layout".  Are you against big stores?  Are you against capitalism?

If he is, more power to him!
The problems don't start with Wal-Mart and they don't end with Wal-Mart.  The real problems come from the economic polices of the U.S. over the past 30 years driving our agricultural and manufacturing industries into the ground.  They experts started saying in the late '80s we could be a "service" economy and an "information" economy.  That was a lie.  If America wants to be a great country, we need a production economy as well.  Where once you had thriving little industrial cities in Ohio, you now have city centers abandoned and rotting, and poor people struggling to make ends meet working three retail jobs...and you have Wal-Mart just outside of town.  Where once you had bustling farm towns in Kansas surrounded by hundreds of family farms, you now have ghost towns full of boarded up businesses.  You have giant agri-business controlling all the arable soils like some kind of capitalist counterpart to the Stalinist collective farms.  You also have a lot of poor people struggling to get by on three retail jobs...and you have Wal-Mart just outside of town.

Does Wal-Mart pay taxes?  Sure.  Is Wal-Mart helping to revive our dying industrial and agricultural economies?  Nope.

I shop at Wal-Mart a lot and the ones I've been to, I haven't seen any of what you just described.  If by "bad karma in how customers conduct themselves", you're going to find that just about anywhere you go.  Wherever large quantities of people gather, you can bet on at least one being a moron and making life difficult for those around them.  I wouldn't say that's indicative of a Wal-Mart.  I also don't understand this comment: "unbridled capitalism approach in the whole brain-dead layout".  Are you against big stores?  Are you against capitalism?


Places that I absolutely HATE to shop at:  Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City.  In fact I REFUSE to set foot into a Best Buy ever again.  Talk about a bad karma situation.

Why my comments? 

Wal-Fart
=====
When I go into a Wal-Mart people are blocking the aisles and not looking in any direction and seem compelled to shop in there as fast as they can (maybe they do not like the vibe either but the prices are not bad...)  It is like people are possessed.  There is the everpresent "in your face" signage and whatnot about how they have the absolutely lowest prices as if life is one big price hunt.

Give me the old fashioned neighborhood grocery store any day.  Still capitalism, but without the in-your-face greed on display.


Bust Boy
======
I go into those places and it is like football practice.  People elbowing each other over the merchandise, blocking aisles, etc.  But what REALLY jerks me about Bust Boy are those smarmy sales people who will assault you at least 7 times and say "how are you doing?".  The last time I got that treatment I retorted "What the hell?  Do I look like I am going to die or something?  Why not just spit it out? Sir, I do not care one sh*t about you but I see you as a sales commission with legs".  After that day I vowed to never return and I have not.  Hey I like capitalism like alot of other people.  Just don't try to make me think that you give one rat's butt about "how I am doing".


Circuits Shoddy
==========
Much like Bust Boy, but you only get the smarmy salepeople in the cell phone department.  Rest of the place is marginally tolerable.


For whatever reason, since I was a kid, I am one who, if in a room or situation in which there is a negative vibe, pick up on it and it amplifies in my psyche.  For example I was at two funerals for small infants and was wracked for over a month the second time (noe of the kids were relatives).  Or if I have a relative or close friend who might be 1000 miles away and is sick, I'll feel the same symptoms even though I do not know that he or she is sick.  Some people have said that it all makes me an "empath" (does not mean I am an empathetic person, it is more of a clinical term).

So... for whatever reason... when I walk into a Wal-Mart I pick up on the negative vibe BIG-TIME and want to get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

Why do I bother posting in here sometimes?

Places that I absolutely HATE to shop at:  Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City.  In fact I REFUSE to set foot into a Best Buy ever again.  Talk about a bad karma situation.

Why my comments? 

Wal-Fart
=====
When I go into a Wal-Mart people are blocking the aisles and not looking in any direction and seem compelled to shop in there as fast as they can (maybe they do not like the vibe either but the prices are not bad...)  It is like people are possessed.  There is the everpresent "in your face" signage and whatnot about how they have the absolutely lowest prices as if life is one big price hunt.

Give me the old fashioned neighborhood grocery store any day.  Still capitalism, but without the in-your-face greed on display.


Bust Boy
======
I go into those places and it is like football practice.  People elbowing each other over the merchandise, blocking aisles, etc.  But what REALLY jerks me about Bust Boy are those smarmy sales people who will assault you at least 7 times and say "how are you doing?".  The last time I got that treatment I retorted "What the hell?  Do I look like I am going to die or something?  Why not just spit it out? Sir, I do not care one sh*t about you but I see you as a sales commission with legs".   After that day I vowed to never return and I have not.  Hey I like capitalism like alot of other people.  Just don't try to make me think that you give one rat's butt about "how I am doing".


Circuits Shoddy
==========
Much like Bust Boy, but you only get the smarmy salepeople in the cell phone department.  Rest of the place is marginally tolerable.


For whatever reason, since I was a kid, I am one who, if in a room or situation in which there is a negative vibe, pick up on it and it amplifies in my psyche.  For example I was at two funerals for small infants and was wracked for over a month the second time (noe of the kids were relatives).  Or if I have a relative or close friend who might be 1000 miles away and is sick, I'll feel the same symptoms even though I do not know that he or she is sick.  Some people have said that it all makes me an "empath" (does not mean I am an empathetic person, it is more of a clinical term).

So... for whatever reason... when I walk into a Wal-Mart I pick up on the negative vibe BIG-TIME and want to get the hell out of there as soon as possible.




You're projecting.  You're saying that because every time you walk into one of these stores, you get "bad vibes", the stores themselves must suck and therefore you don't want to shop there anymore.  I have never had any of these problems and I frequent these establishments all the time.  In fact, no one I know has had problems like this.  If I had, I wouldn't continually give them my business.  I've been to many a shopping center and had to deal with pushy sales people, rude customers and inattentive staff, but I don't feel that ALL of those stores have the same problems all of the time.  Just because YOU'VE had bad experiences doesn't mean those are bad establishments or that everyone who goes there will feel the same way you do.

  Just because YOU'VE had bad experiences doesn't mean those are bad establishments or that everyone who goes there will feel the same way you do.


I never said that peoiple should not go to Wal-Mart etc.  To the contrary I have said that people must generally like Wal-Mart else it would not be so successful.

However AS FOR ME I do not like it as I have already explained.

I never said that peoiple should not go to Wal-Mart etc.  To the contrary I have said that people must generally like Wal-Mart else it would not be so successful.

However AS FOR ME I do not like it as I have already explained.




I never said that you said people shouldn't go there.  It sounded as though you were trying to say that because of the experiences you've had in those stores, somehow the stores are bad. 

I've had the same experiences as LB, but c'est la vie!  That's the market place.  You can go to a Turkish bazaar and find the same thing...crowds, elbowing, yelling, pushy vendors trying to sell you junk...markeplaces around the world have been this way for hundreds of years, so I don't take it personal-like!

Some people who complain about their fellow patrons in discount stores have the attitude that they're actually from a superior class above the riff-raff and are entitled to deferential treatment.  I'm pretty certain I couldn't be describing anybody we know...
8)

Some people who complain about their fellow patrons in discount stores have the attitude that they're actually from a superior class above the riff-raff and are entitled to deferential treatment.  I'm pretty certain I couldn't be describing anybody we know...
8)



If this is some kind of veiled dig at me, a) that's low and I thought you were above that and b) I made no comments that in any way intimated that I was above anyone or felt that I was in a superior class. 


I don't like this "guess who I'm talking about" junk.

You paint a rosy picture of the "Big Box" retail economy. I disagree with all, but here is an article that summarizes some of the problems of tax credits and subsidies for Wal-Mart.  It's not complete, but it is clear.


But Max, everybody shops at those types of stores, and I would call you a liar if you claimed that you did not.

Last month, I started an "ask me" topic about computers.  And you know what most of the questions bassically are?

Should I buy a Dell, or a Compaq.  And it basically revolvs around things like that.  People asking which name brand computer they should buy.  And I am always amazed when people will put down "big box" when it comes to some things, ye twhere do they go to buy things?

They go right back to Circus City, Wally Mart, and Sears.  When was the last time you did much shopping at local stores?  How much of your purchases are made from local stores, that are not associated with some large franchise?  Did you get your last computer from a local store, or did you either order it from a major on-line seller or mass retailer?

I work at a small retailer.  We have one store, and the owner still comes in every day and works (even though he is in his 60's, and had a quad bypass 2 months ago).  And I am not scared about competition from Best Buy, Circus City, or anyplace else.  Because I know we can give something they can't: personal service.

And when their cheap $400 computer dies in a year, they will come to us to fix it.  In the last year, our business has changed, because over half our work now is fixing "Name Brand" computers, that are less then a year old.

So answer me this:  what percentage of your purchases are from the local economy, and what percentage are from major franchises?

But Max, everybody shops at those types of stores, and I would call you a liar if you claimed that you did not.

Last month, I started an "ask me" topic about computers.  And you know what most of the questions bassically are?

Should I buy a Dell, or a Compaq.  And it basically revolvs around things like that.  People asking which name brand computer they should buy.  And I am always amazed when people will put down "big box" when it comes to some things, ye twhere do they go to buy things?

They go right back to Circus City, Wally Mart, and Sears.  When was the last time you did much shopping at local stores?  How much of your purchases are made from local stores, that are not associated with some large franchise?  Did you get your last computer from a local store, or did you either order it from a major on-line seller or mass retailer?

I work at a small retailer.  We have one store, and the owner still comes in every day and works (even though he is in his 60's, and had a quad bypass 2 months ago).  And I am not scared about competition from Best Buy, Circus City, or anyplace else.  Because I know we can give something they can't: personal service.

And when their cheap $400 computer dies in a year, they will come to us to fix it.  In the last year, our business has changed, because over half our work now is fixing "Name Brand" computers, that are less then a year old.

So answer me this:  what percentage of your purchases are from the local economy, and what percentage are from major franchises?

I shop at big box stores sometimes.  I shop mom & pops at other times.  It depends what I am shopping for.  It's not about ME, anyway.  I don't have a family budget to meet.
What Wal-Mart does is offer cheaper products than any independent store possibly could.  Adjusting for inflation, Wal-Mart is way cheapter than the department stores I grew up with.  The problem is, once the average family is poor enough, they have no choice but to shop at big stores such as Wal-Mart.  I do not fault them for it.  I just don't like the economics that drive the "success" of Wal-Mart....and the economics are not free market competition.

[quote author=Keyser S

I am in construction and I can tell you wages are great, but then again I belong to a strong union in a strong union state.  When you are in construction you know that there are good times and bad, right now they are pretty bad. I'm not having a great time of it, union or non-union if the work isn't there we all suffer, but if you aren't prepared for the bad then you don't belong in the business.  Your old man is looking for someone to blame, the mirror is the first place to go, then Washington DC (who'd he vote for? bush?)

In construction the illegal workers are the doing the work a lot of Americans won't do because they are educated to hazards of things like asbestos, silica, and hazardous materials.  Construction companies love illegals because they can't read the bulletins and come from a place where they are not educated to the effects of exposure to these carcinogens.  I see it all the time.

What's up with the "should have gone to college like a real white person" bu$$sheesh. 

And about the "office rat" crap.  I worked in an office, and I work in construction.  Work is work, pay is pay, what the he$$ makes you think what you or your dad does is better than anything else.  There are as many, if not more clueless construction workers as your post obviously points out.

I don't know what it's like nowadays, but when I was in high school, working construction was sort of a muscle prestige thing, like varsity football.    Sounds funny all thse years later, but it really was.  So they'd hire these big sheep dog-dumb seventeen year olds as laborers, and I wondered about liability.  Not that I cared.  The guys who did it were a buncha thugs, I hoped they'd fall off the scaffolding.  One time Jimmy shot himself with a nail gun.  It was hush-hushed, that's all I remember. 

My father is in construction too, but he does pretty well. Your father ought to move to an area where illegal workers have done contruction, because, as I said earlier, it costs way more to fix sh*tty contruction than do have it done right the first time.

NEW construction may not be much money, but the repair side is a goldmine. Illegal workers often do not know local codes, and when they do something that needs repair (often in just a few years),



Don't make the mistake of blaming the shoddy workmanship on the illegals.  It is the companies they work for who are planning the work.  The illegals go in and do what they are told.  That is why the companies hire them. 

I don't know what it's like nowadays, but when I was in high school, working construction was sort of a muscle prestige thing, like varsity football.    Sounds funny all thse years later, but it really was.  So they'd hire these big sheep dog-dumb seventeen year olds as laborers, and I wondered about liability.  Not that I cared.  The guys who did it were a buncha thugs, I hoped they'd fall off the scaffolding.  One time Jimmy shot himself with a nail gun.  It was hush-hushed, that's all I remember. 


A lot of people see construction workers in a one-dimensional way, but there are as many levels of construction worker as there are in office work.  The dumb sheep dog 17 year old was a entry laborer, pick and shovel.  But you have carpenters, electricians, heavy equipment operators, labor foreman, iron workers, all of whom have to go through 3 or 4 year apprecticeships with class work and field training.  It is as rigorous as a 4 year college(but it pays better, none of this unpaid internship baloney. Hey, I am a construction worker and I  have read Proust, and I am not the only one. 

A lot of people see construction workers in a one-dimensional way, but there are as many levels of construction worker as there are in office work.  The dumb sheep dog 17 year old was a entry laborer, pick and shovel.  But you have carpenters, electricians, heavy equipment operators, labor foreman, iron workers, all of whom have to go through 3 or 4 year apprecticeships with class work and field training.  It is as rigorous as a 4 year college(but it pays better, none of this unpaid internship baloney. Hey, I am a construction worker and I  have read Proust, and I am not the only one. 

I hope you didn't misread what I was saying.  As you say, "construction work" involves a dozen or so highly skilled trades.  Also, a lot of the young guys who start as a day laborers find their way into one of the trades by way of an apprenticeship.  I was just commenting on what I saw in the '80s when guys in my high school were getting those labor jobs on construction sites...reckless assignment practices!  This kid Jimmy could barely operate a pencil sharpener (or a pencil), and they handed him a frickin' nail gun his first week!  This is more a reflection on how foolish certain contractors are!
:-[

I hope you didn't misread what I was saying.  As you say, "construction work" involves a dozen or so highly skilled trades.  Also, a lot of the young guys who start as a day laborers find their way into one of the trades by way of an apprenticeship.  I was just commenting on what I saw in the '80s when guys in my high school were getting those labor jobs on construction sites...reckless assignment practices!  This kid Jimmy could barely operate a pencil sharpener (or a pencil), and they handed him a frickin' nail gun his first week!  This is more a reflection on how foolish certain contractors are!
:-[




That's very true.  There are quite a few who get into the trades because their parents or other family member gets them in, and they can be useless at best, dangerous at worst.  Those nail guns, they should require a permit, they are just as dangerous as the real things, I actually find them scarier and don't like being around them.  Poor Jimmy....

That's very true.  There are quite a few who get into the trades because their parents or other family member gets them in, and they can be useless at best, dangerous at worst.  Those nail guns, they should require a permit, they are just as dangerous as the real things, I actually find them scarier and don't like being around them.  Poor Jimmy....

There's an old saying, "Dame Experience runs a hard school and a fool will learn no other way."  They patched Jimmy up just fine.  He's probably joking about it tonight!
;)