I'm sure you have heard about it by now.  I worked on the Ted Williams Tunnel for Modern Continental and after seeing what was going on I decided I would never go through the tunnel and advised my friends and family not to. The problem is right at the feet on the management of Modern Continental and Bechtel Parsons.  They were doing stuff that the workers questioned, but the answer was that "it was safe, the engineers cleared it", but we all kinda shook our heads and thought "I don't know".  The media dropped the ball here to, they would do puff pieces like what do hard hats have for lunch, and the Big Dig Hunks calendar.  A lot of us tried to tell them that the bigger story was some of the work being done, we worked there, we saw it, but they didn't want to hear any of it, after all, we were construction workers, what could we possibly know.  I talked to a reporter once and told him that I would never go through the Ted Williams Tunnel, and that any portion of the Dig done by Modern would have problems.  He pooh-poohed all that, wonder what he is thinking now,

I've never been through any tunnel. I like tunnels, but I've never had the privelege. But when I first heard about the Big Dig, I liked the concept, but when it comes to heavy duty tunnels like the Big Dig, I just don't think it's the safest means of road transportation in the world.

I've never been through any tunnel. I like tunnels, but I've never had the privelege. But when I first heard about the Big Dig, I liked the concept, but when it comes to heavy duty tunnels like the Big Dig, I just don't think it's the safest means of road transportation in the world.


Actually it probably could have been a marvel of engineering, the problem is and will continue to be the crooks at Modern Continental and Bechtel Parsons taking the engineering and putting in shoddy materials and changing specs.  It could have been fantastic.

I did a bit of Googling since I hadn't heard about the collapse on the news. Apparently the 3 ton 40 ft long ceiling panels were designed to be secured by both bolts and epoxy, which should have lasted forever. Epoxy is good stuff, but having worked with it quite a bit I can say that when it fails there usually is no warning. It's also tricky to correctly apply (i.e. correct temp/humidity, surface preparation, setting times, eveness, etc.) so that it reaches its full rated strength.


Actually it probably could have been a marvel of engineering, the problem is and will continue to be the crooks at Modern Continental and Bechtel Parsons taking the engineering and putting in shoddy materials and changing specs.  It could have been fantastic.


Reminds me of the skyway collapse in the Kansas City Hyatt. One simple unapproved spec change killed a lot of people. Building inpectors were barely there during the hotel's construction too.

Epoxied joints cannot be adequately inspected by just the naked eye; some type of ultrasound or what not would be needed to detect flaws in the bonding.

:\'( http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/madgo.gif

What I feared most about the Big Dig is happening. The difference is only one person lost her life. On is one too many of course. When the tunnels started springing leaks a few years ago I envisioned a catastrophe of the structure bursting and tunnels filling with the Boston Harbor in the middle of rush hour. Who knows? Could still happen. Concrete mixing is an exact science. It doesn't look like it, but it is. It has to be mixed and laid with precise consistency, temperature, and timing. All I heard was the contractor let that concrete sit too long and get too dry. Now it's holding up the Boston Harbor!

Was this because of corruption, or just incompetence? I don't know.

What I do know is after 20 years and umpteen billions of dollars later the state of Massachusetts cannot let those tunnels go unused. How many billions more will it cost to make those tunnels safe? I don't kow.

What I do know is I'm no civil engineer, but I was against the Big Dig from the start. The final plan for the Big Dig looked as if it would return Boston to its pre-Interstate beauty. Judging from the other Massachusetts highway projects of the past half century, I couldn't believe the Big Dig would ever be completed. Look at the Tobin Bridge. That is the result of another incomplete highway project. Every morning rush hour traffic squeezes through one tiny artery into a grid of little streets and brownstones. Every afternoon the whole thing happens in reverse. What a mess!

Whether you run 'em over the river or under the harbor, Boston, cars, and politics is a devil's triangle. I still believe the better solution would be to impose HUGE disincentives for people to drive into town during the business day. Twenty bucks to get in, twenty bucks to get out! London, England, had a huge traffic problem, they levyed a similar toll and it's worked beautifully. The state could have used one fifth of the money it has spent on the disasterous Big Dig and further developed the commuter rail to serve more communities near and far. The city could have built several more garages at MBTA terminals like the one at Alewife station. For a little more money--well a lot of money, but a little compared to what the Big Dig is going to cost all told--they could have made the entire mass transit system, subways, streetcars, and buses, run 24/7. The only time I drive into Boston is when I'm going to be in the city until after midnight. If I could catch the Red Line back to Alewife at 2:00 a.m., I would never have the need to drive into Boston proper. Boston needs these things even if the Big Dig does get finished!

Anyway...you can't unring a bell.

I hate to watch the shameless political maneuvering by Twit Romney who has been trying to remove Matt Amarello from the Turnpike board ever since he became governor.  Most of the construction was done on the previous administrators watch, but Romney is trying to pin it on Amarello in order to stack the board with his people.  It's amazing Romney was even in the state when it happened, since he spends all his time (and OUR money) out of state working on his presidental bid.

Turns my stomache to even back the Pike over anything else.  However, you know if Romney wants the board changes, it can't be good for anyone but him.

I hate to watch the shameless political maneuvering by Twit Romney who has been trying to remove Matt Amarello from the Turnpike board ever since he became governor.  Most of the construction was done on the previous administrators watch, but Romney is trying to pin it on Amarello in order to stack the board with his people.  It's amazing Romney was even in the state when it happened, since he spends all his time (and OUR money) out of state working on his presidental bid.

Turns my stomache to even back the Pike over anything else.  However, you know if Romney wants the board changes, it can't be good for anyone but him.


Agreed.  Romney was shameless in his political posturing over this, after the photo ops he left to go back to New Hampshire, no need to cancel his vacation.


I did a bit of Googling since I hadn't heard about the collapse on the news. Apparently the 3 ton 40 ft long ceiling panels were designed to be secured by both bolts and epoxy, which should have lasted forever. Epoxy is good stuff, but having worked with it quite a bit I can say that when it fails there usually is no warning. It's also tricky to correctly apply (i.e. correct temp/humidity, surface preparation, setting times, eveness, etc.) so that it reaches its full rated strength.

Reminds me of the skyway collapse in the Kansas City Hyatt. One simple unapproved spec change killed a lot of people. Building inpectors were barely there during the hotel's construction too.

Epoxied joints cannot be adequately inspected by just the naked eye; some type of ultrasound or what not would be needed to detect flaws in the bonding.



There was actually a news story on the fact that the national media seems to have quashed the story.  The epoxy is only part of the story with Modern.  They cut corners, rushed work, paid off inspectors....they did just about everything that could be done to make more money for themselves at the expense of public safety. They couldn't even do that right because the owner, Les("more for Les") Marino ended up buying and spending himself into bankruptsy, then died about a year ago with Modern being overseen by his arch enemy Jay Cashman.  That is another story, and I have to go to work, for Modern Continental(I was sent there out of the hall, I am not a regular with them).  The steward on the job had a set to with them the other day because of the lack of precautions with the soil contaminated with asbestos.  They were trying to cut corners, again, to the detriment of the health of the workers, and the public who drive by everyday.

Actually it probably could have been a marvel of engineering, the problem is and will continue to be the crooks at Modern Continental and Bechtel Parsons taking the engineering and putting in shoddy materials and changing specs.  It could have been fantastic.


A question has been bothering me about the Big Dig thing.  The question I have is "Why did the tunnels have ceilings that were big slabs of concrete bolted up"?  These ceilings do not seem to have been there for structural integrity.  They were bolted to the roof of the tunnel.  We're talking about "ceiling tiles" that weigh like 12000 pounds and apparently served as nice looking dead weight.

Why would you even WANT a concrete bolt-on roof?  Any civil engineers out there able to explain this?  (I am a mechanical engineer and I do not understand this design)  :-\\

A question has been bothering me about the Big Dig thing.  The question I have is "Why did the tunnels have ceilings that were big slabs of concrete bolted up"?  These ceilings do not seem to have been there for structural integrity.  They were bolted to the roof of the tunnel.  We're talking about "ceiling tiles" that weigh like 12000 pounds and apparently served as nice looking dead weight.

Why would you even WANT a concrete bolt-on roof?  Any civil engineers out there able to explain this?  (I am a mechanical engineer and I do not understand this design)  :-\\

Well, shoot, you're asking engineering questions. The Big Dig has long ceased to be about engineering...and those involved were concerned with pocketing as much loot as possible and bailing out before the whole thing busted apart. The sooner the state 'fesses up that the Big Dig was not a civil engineering project but a criminal enterprise, the sooner we they can start to put things right. It ain't gonna be easy, but if they keep making excuses, it's not going to get easier. The Big Dig didn't start out as a criminal enterprise. It turned into one as the budget ballooned and the years dragged on. The Big Dig may go down in as one of the most disgraceful wastes of public resources in the nation's history!
:(

Well, shoot, you're asking engineering questions. The Big Dig has long ceased to be about engineering...and those involved were concerned with pocketing as much loot as possible and bailing out before the whole thing busted apart. The sooner the state 'fesses up that the Big Dig was not a civil engineering project but a criminal enterprise, the sooner we they can start to put things right. It ain't gonna be easy, but if they keep making excuses, it's not going to get easier. The Big Dig didn't start out as a criminal enterprise. It turned into one as the budget ballooned and the years dragged on. The Big Dig may go down in as one of the most disgraceful wastes of public resources in the nation's history!
:(


(( Scene:  A passenger train being pulled by a steam engine - diesel engines having been sidelined due to lack of capital investment in oil exploration, rail infrastructure improvements, and R&D into alternative technologies. 
Timeframe:  Guess when it was written before paging down.
Suggested musical accompaniment:  Scanner: Documenta X from 1998's "Sound for Spaces" or other bass-heavy up-tempo ambient/electronic in a minor chord.  ))

"A switchman stood ready to throw the switch that would send the Comet from the siding onto the main track. He looked at the Comet as it came slowly toward him. It was only a blazing white globe with a beam stretching high above his head, and a jerky thunder trembling through the rail under his feet. He knew that the switch should not be thrown. He thought of the night, ten years ago, when he had risked his life in a flood to save a train from a washout. But he knew that times  had changed. In the moment when he threw the switch and saw the headlight jerk sidewise, he knew that he would now hate his job for the rest of his life.

The Comet uncoiled from the siding into a thin, straight line, and went on into the mountains, with the beam of the headlight like an extended arm pointing the way, and the lighted glass curve of the observation lounge ending it off.

Some of the passengers aboard the Comet were awake. As the train started its coiling ascent, they saw the small cluster of Winston's lights at the bottom of the darkness beyond their windows, then the same darkness, but with red and green lights by the hole of a tunnel on the upper edge of the windowpanes. The lights of Winston kept growing smaller, each time they appeared; the black hole of the tunnel kept growing larger. A black veil went streaking past the windows at times, dimming the lights: it was the heavy smoke from the coal-burning engine.

As the tunnel came closer, they saw, on the edge of the sky far to the south, in a void of space and rock, a spot of living fire twisting in the wind. They did not know what it was and did not care to learn.

It is said that catastrophes are a matter of pure chance, and there were those who would have said that the passengers of the Comet were not guilty or responsible for the thing that happened to them.

The man in Bedroom A, Car No. 1, was a professor of sociology who taught that individual ability is of no consequence, that individual effort is futile, that an individual conscience is a useless luxury, that there is no individual mind or character or achievement, that everything is achieved collectively, and that it's masses that count, not men.

The man in Roomette 7, Car No. 2, was a journalist who wrote that it is proper and moral to use compulsion "for a good cause," who believed that he had the right to unleash physical force upon others-to wreck lives, throttle ambitions, strangle desires, violate convictions, to imprison, to despoil, to murder-for the sake of whatever he chose to consider as his own idea of "a good cause," which did not even have to be an idea, since he had never defined what he regarded as the good, but had merely stated that he went by "a feeling"-a feeling unrestrained by any knowledge, since he considered emotion superior to knowledge and relied solely on his own "good intentions" and on the power of a gun.

The woman in Roomette 10, Car No. 3, was an elderly schoolteacher who had spent her life turning class after class of helpless children into miserable cowards, by teaching them that the will of the majority is the only standard of good and evil, that a majority may do anything it pleases, that they must not assert their own personalities, but must do as others were doing.

The man in Drawing Room B, Car No, 4, was a newspaper publisher who believed that men are evil by nature and unfit for freedom, that their basic instincts, if l eft unchecked, are to lie, to rob and to murder one another-and, therefore, men must be ruled by means of lies, robbery and murder, which must be made the exclusive privilege of the rulers, for the purpose of forcing men to work, teaching them to be moral and keeping them within the bounds of order and justice.

The man in Bedroom H, Car No. 5, was a businessman who had acquired his business, an ore mine, with the help of a government loan, under the Equalization of Opportunity Bill.

The man in Drawing Room A, Car No. 6, was a financier who had made a fortune by buying "frozen" railroad bonds and getting his friends in Washington to "defreeze" them.

The man in Seat 5, Car No, 7, was a worker who believed that he had "a right" to a job, whether his employer wanted him  or not.

The woman in Roomette 6, Car No. 8, was a lecturer who believed that, as a consumer, she had "a right" to transportation, whether the railroad people wished to provide it or not.

The man in Roomette 2, Car No. 9, was a professor of economics who advocated the abolition of private property, explaining that intelligence plays no part in industrial production, that man's mind is conditioned by material tools, that anybody can run a factory or a railroad and it's only a matter of seizing the machinery.

The woman in Bedroom D, Car No. 10, was a mother who had put her two children to sleep in the berth above her, carefully tucking them in, protecting them from drafts and jolts; a mother whose husband held a government job enforcing directives, which she defended by saying, "I don't care, it's only the rich that they hurt. After all, I must think of my children."

The man in Roomette 3, Car No. 11, was a sniveling little neurotic who wrote cheap little plays into which, as a social message, he inserted cowardly little obscenities to the effect that all businessmen were scoundrels.

The woman in Roomette 9, Car No. 12, was a housewife who believed that she had the right to elect politicians, of whom she knew nothing, to control giant industries, of which she had no knowledge.

The man in Bedroom F, Car No. 13, was a lawyer who had said, "Me? I'll find a way to get along under any political system."

The man in Bedroom A, Car No. 14, was a professor of philosophy who taught that there is no mind-how do you know that the tunnel is dangerous?--no reality-how can you prove that the tunnel exists?-no logic-why do you claim that trains cannot move without motive power?-no principles-why should you be bound by the law of cause and-effect?-no rights-why shouldn't you attach men to their jobs by force?-no morality-what's moral about running a railroad?-no absolutes-what difference does it make to you whether you live or die, anyway? He taught that we know nothing-why oppose the orders of your superiors?-that we can never be certain of anything-how do you know you're right?-that we must act on the expediency of the moment-you don't want to risk your job, do you?

The man in Drawing Room B, Car No. 15, was an heir who had inherited his fortune, and who had kept repeating, "Why should Rearden be the only one permitted to manufacture Rearden Metal?"

The man in Bedroom A, Car No. 16, was a humanitarian who had said, "The men of ability? I do not care what or if they are made to suffer. They must be penalized in order to support the incompetent. Frankly, I do not care whether this is just or not. I take pride in not caring to grant any justice to the able, where mercy to the needy is concerned."

These passengers were awake; there was not a man aboard the train who did not share one or more of their ideas. As the train went into the tunnel, the flame of Wyatt's Torch was the last thing they saw on earth."

- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, 1957.

Welcome to the party, Maxwell!  We knew you'd find us sooner or later! :)

A question has been bothering me about the Big Dig thing.  The question I have is "Why did the tunnels have ceilings that were big slabs of concrete bolted up"?  These ceilings do not seem to have been there for structural integrity.  They were bolted to the roof of the tunnel.  We're talking about "ceiling tiles" that weigh like 12000 pounds and apparently served as nice looking dead weight.

Why would you even WANT a concrete bolt-on roof?  Any civil engineers out there able to explain this?  (I am a mechanical engineer and I do not understand this design)  :-\\


Longevity is one reason I might go with that design. Also, things like saltwater and vehichle exhaust could erode lesser materials. Ventilating tunnels is also a big issue. Airflow causes a fair amount of stress load. Fireproofing and easy of cleaning should be considered. Asthetics in modern structures is also a big deal (to others, not me, and concrete slabs don't exactly scream "sexy" to me). Although I wouldn't ever consider balancing a tunnel by its ceiling tiles, a tunnel that is too heavy or light with a given depth of water and expected vehicle load will require more support elsewhere to keep it from failing.

That all said, hanging 6 tons slabs of concrete above peoples' heads doesn't make practical sense to me.

Longevity is one reason I might go with that design. Also, things like saltwater and vehichle exhaust could erode lesser materials. Ventilating tunnels is also a big issue. Airflow causes a fair amount of stress load. Fireproofing and easy of cleaning should be considered. Asthetics in modern structures is also a big deal (to others, not me, and concrete slabs don't exactly scream "sexy" to me). Although I wouldn't ever consider balancing a tunnel by its ceiling tiles, a tunnel that is too heavy or light with a given depth of water and expected vehicle load will require more support elsewhere to keep it from failing.

That all said, hanging 6 tons slabs of concrete above peoples' heads doesn't make practical sense to me.

6 ton slabs of badly mixed concrete above people's heads and the 6 ton slabs of badly mixed concrete eternally sustaining the weight of Boston Harbor! Ewwww!

....and the 6 ton slabs of badly mixed concrete eternally sustaining the weight of Boston Harbor! Ewwww!


But the thing is, Max, these concrete slabs were not structural members.  There are other structures (more reinforced concrete, I imagine) that actually hold the tunnel up.  The concrete slabs in question appear to simply be extremely heavy gingerbread.  :-\\

But the thing is, Max, these concrete slabs were not structural members.  There are other structures (more reinforced concrete, I imagine) that actually hold the tunnel up.  The concrete slabs in question appear to simply be extremely heavy gingerbread.  :-\\


That's right.  The workers on the job were shaking their heads wondering what the hell was up with that.  Hanging concrete over people heads?! What it actually amounts to is a hanging ceiling like the one in may households, but it is made of cement.  I actually met and talked with a reporter at a social function I was at, but he just didn't want to hear it.  The press didn't believe anything could really happen, and what could construction workers know that an engineers didn't?  IMHO the fault lies with Modern Continental and their cozy relationship with the Bechtel engineers.  Having worked with that company and other companies on the dig(I work out of the hall so I worked with a couple of different companies) the culture of Modern was fast and cheap(not inexpensive, cheap).  They lowballed a lot of bids by millions of dollars, then cut corners to make up the difference.  It was the opinion of many that, while the Central Artery Tunnel engineers seemed to be on the up and up,  the Bechtel engineers, who seemed to have the final say,were less than scrupulous(some would say paid off) in the duties. This did not seem to be so with companies.  The major problems on the Dig since its opening have been on sections completed by Modern. 

I think that the Big Dig, if it had been done the correct way, would have been a shining star in modern engineering, and of course if it had been done honestly the pricetag would never have been what it was(and continues to be)but it has turned into a deadly waste by mismanagement and greed. 

.... what could construction workers know that an engineers didn't?  IMHO the fault lies with Modern Continental and their cozy relationship with the Bechtel engineers. 

I think that the Big Dig, if it had been done the correct way, would have been a shining star in modern engineering, and of course if it had been done honestly the pricetag would never have been what it was(and continues to be)but it has turned into a deadly waste by mismanagement and greed.   


It turns out that everyday workers OFTEN and REGULARLY know more than the engineers.  Note that by education and degree, I am a mechanical engineer.  But years ago I stopped referring to myself as "an engineer" because I found that the vast majority of people who introduce themselves as "I am an engineer" are buffoons who have never had to actually use their designs and who have little concept of cost or everyday utility.  :-X

I actually have a US patent on some manufacturing technology, and it is shared with several maintenance workers... average Joes... who knew what would work in the real world.  Together we came up with some cool stuff at a cost of about $20k.  The "Engineering Department" designed something for $300k that we could not afford and which would not have worked as well anyway.  ;D

For the past 21 years, whenever I needed to hire somebody with an engineering degee, I FIRST assigned them for two years to the production floor so that they could understand what all the technology was for.  Interestingly I never heard any of these guys refer to themselves as "an engineer" after that.  :)

It turns out that everyday workers OFTEN and REGULARLY know more than the engineers.  Note that by education and degree, I am a mechanical engineer.  But years ago I stopped referring to myself as "an engineer" because I found that the vast majority of people who introduce themselves as "I am an engineer" are buffoons who have never had to actually use their designs and who have little concept of cost or everyday utility.  :-X

I actually have a US patent on some manufacturing technology, and it is shared with several maintenance workers... average Joes... who knew what would work in the real world.  Together we came up with some cool stuff at a cost of about $20k.  The "Engineering Department" designed something for $300k that we could not afford and which would not have worked as well anyway.  ;D

For the past 21 years, whenever I needed to hire somebody with an engineering degee, I FIRST assigned them for two years to the production floor so that they could understand what all the technology was for.  Interestingly I never heard any of these guys refer to themselves as "an engineer" after that.  :)


Good points all.
Furthermore, I find in most professions, the first people to use the profession as their primary identity are lightweights who are actually quite insecure about their abilities--with good reason!

It turns out that everyday workers OFTEN and REGULARLY know more than the engineers.



Agreed. Not always, but practical experience, observation, and common sense>titles 90% of the time.



I actually have a US patent on some manufacturing technology, and it is shared with several maintenance workers... average Joes... who knew what would work in the real world.  Together we came up with some cool stuff at a cost of about $20k.  The "Engineering Department" designed something for $300k that we could not afford and which would not have worked as well anyway.  ;D



I only wish more engineers would consult with workers before they design things. Having worked at some horribly layed and designed facilities in my time, I can relate to your story.

I hold a Class 1 VA Wastewater license, and have 6 years experience in most operations of large wastewater plants. Some years ago, one Plant Manager (whose engineering degree is in MINING) wanted opinions and options on a new scum handling system to replace our old system. My idea would have taken 2 days time and roughly 2k$ to complete, been idiot proof, and safer for the environment. He went with a much more elaborate system that took 8 months and over 100k$ to build. I will say it works nicely, but given the high maintenance costs it will never come close to the efficiency of what took me roughly 6 hours to design and cost analyze.

BTW, I'm not an engineer, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

I will be the first to say numerous things are beyond my ability to design and require good engineers.