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I am sure we are all sick about this.  I believe they should be shipped back to Iraq and dealt with by them. 

This shows the mental instability that a useless war induces.
Is it true- Who knows? Is it possible- Yes!

Why is the FBI involved?

And I also think the alleged perpetrator should be dealt with by our military.
If he did this gruesome act we should kill the ba$tard.

This shows the mental instability that a useless war induces.
Is it true- Who knows? Is it possible- Yes!

Why is the FBI involved?

And I also think the alleged perpetrator should be dealt with by our military.
If he did this gruesome act we should kill the ba$tard.



The FBI helped investigate and found enough evidence to pick him up and detain the others.  The offence was committed in March, others in the company knew about it (more disgrace).  The incident came to light during debriefing for return to the States.  I believe that when an act as heinous as this is committed on foreign soil that the military can be involved, but that the country in which the offense was committed should have jurisdiction. 

The FBI helped investigate and found enough evidence to pick him up and detain the others.  The offence was committed in March, others in the company knew about it (more disgrace).  The incident came to light during debriefing for return to the States.  I believe that when an act as heinous as this is committed on foreign soil that the military can be involved, but that the country in which the offense was committed should have jurisdiction. 


I heard about this yesterday, but the article I read said that the soldiers in the company who knew about it reported the offending parties. Not sure if that is true though. If it is, good on them. If not, I hope action is taken against them as well.

Didn't the same thing happen in My Lai in 1968?

I think it's a shame and a disgrace that there are soldiers out there who pull this kind of cr*p. The common soldier is already unpopular with certain Americans (even though it isn't their fault they are stuck in this "war"). This will only serve as more ammunition against them.

I heard about this yesterday, but the article I read said that the soldiers in the company who knew about it reported the offending parties. Not sure if that is true though. If it is, good on them. If not, I hope action is taken against them as well.


  I've been reading on the papers that, yes, other members of the unit reported the incident to superiors...supposedly their weapons were confiscated and they were being held under a sort of house arrest at their base...

  My news may be a tad dated...



I think it's a shame and a disgrace that there are soldiers out there who pull this kind of cr*p. The common soldier is already unpopular with certain Americans (even though it isn't their fault they are stuck in this "war"). This will only serve as more ammunition against them.


  It is a shame and a disgrace and a tragedy and an outrage...

  There had been no draft...ours remains an all volunteer army...

  Oh and HI Jess!! :)

 

   Oh and HI Jess!! :) 


Ah, another veteran of this board. Hello yourself. :)

  There had been no draft...ours remains an all volunteer army...


My uncle is a veteran of the U.S. Army in the Vietnam era, and he says he thinks we should have a draft.  He says he thinks a draft keeps the military honest because you always have civilian-minded people are.  A career soldier doesn't think the same way as a draftee at all, and unfortunately sometimes that means things like this can happen.  I can kinda see whats he is saying.

Quite frankly, my uncle is just downright dissappointed with today's military.  He thinks there has been a major drop in quality of the American soldier in the last 30 years.  I haven't been in the military so I won't give my personal opinion on this, but my uncle refers to today's soldiers as "McDonald's rejects".  He views them as mostly punk kids who joined for the money.  Very few "real soldiers with honor" any more.

Mother-loving American army run by old women, many of them religious my god hanging American soldiers for raping and murdering civilians.
"WHAT THE F**KING BLOODY HELL ARE CIVILIANS FOR?"
Old Sarge bellows from here to eternity: "Soldiers' pay!"

---William S. Burroughs,
The Revised Boy Scout Manual (1970)

'Nuff said.

::)

Why is it(well we know why) the American sources report the the "woman" was 25, when everyone else has reported that the "girl" was 15?  >:(  Know doubt in my mind she was 15, but the FBI probably thinks it is
better to age her a bit, did they think we wouldn't find out?

[quote author=

A real soldier would never make a generality like that about brothers in arms.  The vast majority of our soldiers are serving with honor.




I was taken back by that, too.  I have heard enlisted men bash officers, but never under any circumstance bash other enlisted men.

A real soldier would never make a generality like that about brothers in arms.  The vast majority of our soldiers are serving with honor.



Shut your punkass mouth.  My uncle was as soldier as you could get.  During his service he was both an airborne ranger and a drill instructor.


I was taken back by that, too.  I have heard enlisted men bash officers, but never under any circumstance bash other enlisted men.


I figure he has the right to say what he wants.  And I don't think his comments are totally unfounded.  Hes not bashing HIS fellow enlisted men, he was in the Army over 30 years ago.  He is talking about the military of today.

This is no war. This is an illegal occupation of a sovereign country. The people of Iraq do not want us there. I can't say what percentage of our soldiers want to occupy Iraq, but either way, they shouldn't be there.
The current state of affairs in Iraq is an open invitation to atrocities, just like we saw in Vietnam. The longer we stay there, the worse it will get.

_________

In order to recover our democratic republic, this entire administration must be impeached and removed from office along with all confirmed judicial appointments this adminstration has made. We are dealing with wicked men here. Dickie-boy Cheney is exacting his revenge for the Iran-Contra hearings. He believes the President should be the absolute dictator of foreign affairs. Cheney's attitude toward the Congress 20 years ago was how dare you! Cheney and his simian sock puppet Dubya don't think YOU or I should have any say at all in how this country is governed. These men are fascist pigs.

We would not have this Bush-Cheney problem if our Founding Fathers could help it. They would have had Ronald Reagan hanged for treason as a corrective measure against Reagan's making war after Congress forbade him to do so. Anyone else want to thwart the will of the people?

This is what happens when a democratic republic lets its Constitution slide. Congress allowed the executive branch to make war on Korea without declaration. This led to an undeclared war against Vietnam and two undeclared wars in the Middle East. President Ford pardoned President Nixon for Watergate, thus sending a message of executive impunity. Ten years later you had a madman for President who was ordering paramilitary warfare in Central America and funding it with illegal arms sales to Iran, a country we now call enemy. When Reagan and his goons got caught, they lied their asses off, and Congress just let it slide.

Forgiveness was not what Cheney and the fascist neo-cons had in mind. When Cheney was in Congress and when he was Secretary of Defense under Daddy Bush, we saw him as just a drab man in a gray suit. No one figured he was still gnashing his teeth over an arrogant Congress daring to question a President's conduct in foreign policy. Twenty years after Iran-Contra, we find Cheney the one pulling the levers. What's more, he and his neo-con pals know they can rape the Constitution because the last fifty years of American governance have primed the people to accept it.

The Democrats were cowards in the face of treason back in 1986 and 1987. They did not oblige their Constitutional mandate to impeach Reagan. The Democratic mantra, "let's be nice, let's not rock the boat," is still the one they murmur today, even as the fascists steal their elections and libel their names. When the Dems did not remove Reagan from office and incarcerate him for the rest of his evil life, when they did not do likewise to Bush, Seacord, Poindexter, McFarlane, North, and all that bloody crew, they sowed the seeds for end of our Constitutional Republic; the gave a blank check to the neo-con fascists.

_________

Last month, a fifteen-year-old Iraqi girl and her family paid the ultimate price for our Constitutional negligence. They join the innumerable ranks of civilians worldwide who have paid the same price.  Soldiers are not occupying your town and raping children, and murding families...but just let Constitution slide for a few more years, and you never know what's possible.

HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY TO ONE AND ALL!

Didn't the same thing happen in My Lai in 1968?



My Lai was worse, much worse. On March 16th of that year a platoon ledy by one Lt. William Calley raided a hamlet called My Lai in the Quang Gnai province of South Vietnam. They raped and tortured some of the villagers, but the better portion, mostly women, elderly, and children, they machine gunned to death in a ditch. At the end of the day over 500 civilians lay murdered. My Lai was far worse than what we're talking about here...cold comfort to a murdered Iraqi girl, mind you. But let the Iraqis make a note of My Lai as a preview of coming attractions should this occupation continue much longer.

BTW, as we saw with the abuses at the Abu Grhraib prison in Baghdad, Lt. Calley's direct superior, one Captain Ernest Medina, let Calley take the fall. Medina's superiors were just fine with that. They used Calley for a show trial as a national scapegoat and wiped their hands of it. You know what the did with Calley in the end? They let him go. This was the civilian court, which superceded the court-martial that had sentenced Calley to life.

This shows the mental instability that a useless war induces.
Is it true- Who knows? Is it possible- Yes!

Why is the FBI involved?

And I also think the alleged perpetrator should be dealt with by our military.
If he did this gruesome act we should kill the ba$tard.


This kind of thing does happen with our military members, as sad as it is.

There are also cases of murder, robbery, burglary, arson, and every other crime imagineable by servicemembers.  This is because they are largely like anybody else.  There are roughly 1.5 million people in uniform in this countries Armed Forces.  And you will always have a percentage of "bad eggs" in an organization that large, no matter how carefully you screen them.

If anything, the rate of crimes like this is much lower by percentage then in any other grouping of people this large.  I know that when I was at Camp Lejeune from 1987-1990, we had a single double murder on base.  That is it.  Can you think of many other communities with a population of over 150,000 with such a low homicide rate?

And the FBI is involved because the person who is being charged was already sent home by his superiors.  He had already been charged with being "mentally unstable", and was sent home before these charges even came to light.  Another reason this is being handled by both civilian investigators (FBI) and civilian courts is that the person ins question has already been discharged.  He was given an Honorable Discharge for medical reasons because of his "mental disability".

He is also the only person who is under investigation of doing the crime.  From what I have read, he acted alone, and while some other members in his unit suspected he was involved in the crime, none of them took part in it.

Myself, I expect him to be found not guilty by reason if insanity, and then spend a long long time in a mental lockup.  It is almost to bad he is not likely to be tried for this by a military Court Martial.  The odds he would be convicted are much higher there.

Myself, I would wish he would be convicted and sentenced to death at the soonest opertunity.  But since he is "mentally disturbed", he will probably just spend the rest of his life in jail.

If anything, the rate of crimes like this is much lower by percentage then in any other grouping of people this large.  I know that when I was at Camp Lejeune from 1987-1990, we had a single double murder on base.  That is it.  Can you think of many other communities with a population of over 150,000 with such a low homicide rate?

Who is being deceptive here? A military base of 150,000 is NOT the same kind of society as a civilian city of 150,000. The differences is as obvious as the nose on my face (and the nose on my face is pretty obvious iffen you ever saw it!). This kind of bogus comparison remends me of the time Brit Hume claimed citizens in California had a higher statistical chance of being murdered than soldiers in Iraq had of being killed.
http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/03/08/29_fox.html
Interesting to note, when Hume pulled this bit of statistical chicanery, there were only 277 soldiers reported killed in Iraq. Three years later the number is over 2700!
I'm afraid your Lajeune comparison is jejune.  Anyway, I expect this kind of BS from Brit Hume. You're not Brit Hume, and I expect a little more from you, sir!
::)

Who is being deceptive here? A military base of 150,000 is NOT the same kind of society as a civilian city of 150,000.


OK, and why is it not the same?

Well, maybe because of several issues:

Everybody on a military base has a job
There is almost 0% drug useage
Everybody lives in decent housing
Everybody has 100% medical and dental coverage
Crimes are quickly prosecuted, from things as minor as theft up to and including rape and murder
People with mental issues and criminal histories are pre-screened and not allowed in

What else could possibly matter to this being a factor?  Crime is so low at military bases that it is frequently almost impossible to measure.  I know that in my 2 years living in base housing at Mare Island, we almost never locked our doors.  You would never leave your house unlocked in Vallejo, the town just outside the gate.

here's an interesting twist on this story.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20060707/us_nm/security_cockpit_dc_1

a soldier went all weird on an airline flight.

by the by, i think the crime rates are so low on military bases because they're much more effectively policed.

"Passengers subdue man on Delta flight to Florida

Fri Jul 7, 11:18 AM ET

TAMPA, Florida (Reuters) - A man who tried to force his way into the cockpit of a Tampa-bound Delta Air Lines jet was undergoing mental evaluation on Friday, Tampa International Airport officials said.
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Passengers said the man ran up the aisle toward the cockpit door just before the flight from New York's LaGuardia Airport was about to land in Tampa on Thursday night."

OK, and why is it not the same?

Well, maybe because of several issues:

Everybody on a military base has a job
There is almost 0% drug useage
Everybody lives in decent housing
Everybody has 100% medical and dental coverage
Crimes are quickly prosecuted, from things as minor as theft up to and including rape and murder
People with mental issues and criminal histories are pre-screened and not allowed in

What else could possibly matter to this being a factor?  Crime is so low at military bases that it is frequently almost impossible to measure.  I know that in my 2 years living in base housing at Mare Island, we almost never locked our doors.  You would never leave your house unlocked in Vallejo, the town just outside the gate.


The one major similarity is spousal abuse, which is just as prevalent, but much less prosecuted.

here's an interesting twist on this story.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20060707/us_nm/security_cockpit_dc_1

a soldier went all weird on an airline flight.

by the by, i think the crime rates are so low on military bases because they're much more effectively policed.


Myself, I would question that.  In fact, other then the presence at the main gate, you rarely see MPs doing anything more then writing speeding tickets.  Fort Rucker (the nearest base) covers roughly 11 square miles, and normally has no more then 10 MPs at any one time (over half of them on gate duty).  That is pretty similar to most towns of the same size in the area.

Here is a little bit better article by Reuters:

TAMPA, Florida (Reuters) - A U.S. soldier recently returned from Iraq tried to force his way into the cockpit of a Tampa-bound Delta Air Lines jet and was subdued by other passengers, a Tampa International Airport spokeswoman said on Friday.

The 24-year-old man was undergoing mental evaluation at a Tampa hospital, and the FBI was investigating whether charges should be filed, airport spokeswoman Brenda Geoghagan said.

The man, Neftali Alexander Laimendez, was flying with his brother to see their mother in Tampa and seek medical attention, Geoghagan said.

As the flight from New York's LaGuardia Airport approached Tampa on Thursday night, he ignored flight attendants' instructions to sit down and fasten his seat belt, and ran up the aisle of the plane and into the first class cabin, Geoghagan said.

"As he is running, he is ramming the cockpit door, falling on the aisle, getting up and repeatedly doing this," she said. "Three or four of the passengers restrained him and held him on the floor."

Airport police arrested him when the McDonnell Douglas MD-88 landed. Laimendez was unarmed and his intent was unclear, investigators said.

He was taken to a hospital for evaluation under a law that allows people to be held involuntarily for 72 hours if they are considered a threat to themselves or others, Geoghagan said.

Laimendez is a U.S. soldier who had just returned to the United States from Iraq and his term of service was to end on July 12, Geoghagan said.

Cockpit doors on all U.S. airliners have been locked since the September 11 hijackings.


Of course, there have been many other similar incidents in the recent months, including a few I remember by celebrities.

celebrity cockpit stalking? i don't remember hearing about that, who was it?

OK, and why is it not the same?

Well, maybe because of several issues:

Everybody on a military base has a job
There is almost 0% drug useage
Everybody lives in decent housing
Everybody has 100% medical and dental coverage
Crimes are quickly prosecuted, from things as minor as theft up to and including rape and murder
People with mental issues and criminal histories are pre-screened and not allowed in

What else could possibly matter to this being a factor?  Crime is so low at military bases that it is frequently almost impossible to measure.  I know that in my 2 years living in base housing at Mare Island, we almost never locked our doors.  You would never leave your house unlocked in Vallejo, the town just outside the gate.

If everybody in the civilian population could have a secure job, decent housing, and full medical and dental coverage for them and their families, that would cut down on drug abuse and crime quite a bit.
More to the point:
THE MILITARY IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTION.

::)

More to the point:
THE MILITARY IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTION.

::)


No, it is not.  However, it is to a certain degree:

Everybody in the military is a volunteer, and has agreed to participate by the same rules and laws.

We have no conscription in this country, and everybody knew what they were getting into when they first joined.  Nobody held a gun to their head, and everybody is in by their own free will.

There is no employment that is "Democratic".  I do not care if it is 7-11, Exxon, Disney, NYPD, United War, Red Cross, or Department of Fish & Wildlife.  Your supervisors are not elected, and you have little to no say who your supervisor is.  Employment is always a form of Dictatorship, and it has to be.  Otherwise you end up with a situation where there are "to many chiefs and not enough indians".

And at one time, the military was actually quite Democratic.  The word "Company" is descended from the days where a mercenary or volunteer organization would vote for who it's leaders were.  "Captain" descends from the rank and position of an individual who was elected to run a "Company".  Abraham Lincoln (with no military experience) was elected as a Captain of his local militia.  And that was a common practice up until the Civil War.  That practice finally died after the Civil War, and the establishment of the current Federal Military structure.

Myself, I would never want to be in a military (or company for that matter) where popularity and votes were the requirement to be the leader.  I would much rather work for somebody who is able to get the job done.

Myself, I would never want to be in a military (or company for that matter) where popularity and votes were the requirement to be the leader.  I would much rather work for somebody who is able to get the job done.

The goal of the fascist-occupied Republican party is to destroy these requirements to be the leader of the civilian government, not just the military or private business. You must be in hog heaven, because they have successfully done so. The great appeal of the fascist strong man as leader to the desperate masses is he was "able to get the job done."  There is where the Bushies run into trouble. Bush is not even capable of getting the job done.
There is nothing worse than a fascist who can't get the trains to run on time!!!
;D :o