I don't think I've ever felt this sickened and DISGUSTED by organized religion.

Today, my uncle whom I live with returned home from the funeral of his best friend of over 30 years.  They were stationed in Thailand together in the Army.  He was distraught crying.  I asked him whats the matter and he told me.

His friend, Jim, like my uncle, was not a religious man.  However much of his family are.  At the funeral the Preacher had the audacity to not only preach over the body of this man, who was not religious and that crap had nothing to do with who he was, but then he went on to say "well he was a good man, but he lived a LOSER'S LIFE".  AT THIS MAN'S FUNERAL this PIECE OF SH*T says this.  >:( >:( >:( My uncle was so upset he had to immediately leave, and drove straight back here. 

I don't think I'll ever be able to look at a religious person again in my life without throwing up in my mouth. 

Religious is SO "kind".  From this point on I'm never going to be hesitant to say I'M A F*CKING ATHEIST, proud and true.

I am sorry that your uncle had to endure this. Unfortunely, there are many so-called religious people out there who think theirs is the ONLY religion and anyone else who disagrees with them is wrong. Religious intolerance is so rampent in this world. While your attitude is understandable, that attitude is no better than those you are upset with. Please remember that not ALL religious people take that kind of attitude-even though many do.

I like to concider myself a religious person even though I am not a Christian. I take my religion very seriously but I also respect others for theirs and want that same respect back. But, not everyone does. Please don't stoop to their level.




Cat

Uh, exactly WHY did the preacher say the man led a "loser's life"? I inferred it was because the deceased did not follow the same "religion" as the preacher.
Was this preacher one of those evangelical holy-roller types by any chance? Didn't his mama teach him no manners?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/viking.gif

[quote author=

I am sorry that your uncle had to endure this. Unfortunely, there are many so-called religious people out there who think theirs is the ONLY religion and anyone else who disagrees with them is wrong. Religious intolerance is so rampent in this world. While your attitude is understandable, that attitude is no better than those you are upset with. Please remember that not ALL religious people take that kind of attitude-even though many do.

I like to concider myself a religious person even though I am not a Christian. I take my religion very seriously but I also respect others for theirs and want that same respect back. But, not everyone does. Please don't stoop to their level.




Cat


What Cat said.  Take this from someone who is a evangelical holy roller type and we are not all like this at all.  99 percent of us wouldn't do anything like that.  It is the other 1% that give the rest of us a bad name.  From my point of view, I would like everyone to believe what I do but I know it isn't going to happen.  If I do win someone to my point of view, I wouldn't be able to do it by saying things like that.  Saying hateful things like that only serve to drive people away, not bring them closer.

What Cat said.  Take this from someone who is a evangelical holy roller type and we are not all like this at all.  99 percent of us wouldn't do anything like that.  It is the other 1% that give the rest of us a bad name.  From my point of view, I would like everyone to believe what I do but I know it isn't going to happen.  If I do win someone to my point of view, I wouldn't be able to do it by saying things like that.  Saying hateful things like that only serve to drive people away, not bring them closer.


You're a real Christian :)

I am sorry that your uncle had to endure this. Unfortunely, there are many so-called religious people out there who think theirs is the ONLY religion and anyone else who disagrees with them is wrong. Religious intolerance is so rampent in this world. While your attitude is understandable, that attitude is no better than those you are upset with. Please remember that not ALL religious people take that kind of attitude-even though many do.

I like to concider myself a religious person even though I am not a Christian. I take my religion very seriously but I also respect others for theirs and want that same respect back. But, not everyone does. Please don't stoop to their level.




Cat


I know that, Cat.  Sorry if I offended you, I was very upset over this incident is all.  You're absolutely right.  Its like if someone is racist against you, you're no better if you let that turn YOU into a racist, ya know?


Uh, exactly WHY did the preacher say the man led a "loser's life"? I inferred it was because the deceased did not follow the same "religion" as the preacher.
Was this preacher one of those evangelical holy-roller types by any chance? Didn't his mama teach him no manners?
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/viking.gif


Well, this was a Baptist preacher in Louisana, near the border with Mississippi. The town was Natchez, actually.

And you're absolutely correct, Max.  It was because Jim was an agnostic and did not attend church.  His wife did, and so I'm sure this jerk was aware of Jim and knew he did not come or participate in religion.  To these types, you're nothing but a soul to be saved like a customer is only a dollar sign to a large company.  You only have value to them if you're part of their "flock".


What Cat said.  Take this from someone who is a evangelical holy roller type and we are not all like this at all.  99 percent of us wouldn't do anything like that.  It is the other 1% that give the rest of us a bad name.  From my point of view, I would like everyone to believe what I do but I know it isn't going to happen.  If I do win someone to my point of view, I wouldn't be able to do it by saying things like that.  Saying hateful things like that only serve to drive people away, not bring them closer.


I know.  My maternal grandparents are Pentacostl, infact my grandfather owns a Church and used to preach there before he got too old.  I know he'd never say something so disgraceful and mean-spirited.

Ironically, if what this guy believes in is true, then surely he'll burn in hell for this.  What he did was definitely not Christian.

This actually sort of reminds me of this book I'm reading now, to be a little bit off topic...it's called Go Tell It On the Mountain, and it's by James Baldwin. One of the main characters, Gabriel, a preacher, impregnated Esther, a girl who he worked with, out of wedlock. And he lies and cheats and tries to send her away to Chicago, and eventually she dies, though their son comes back to live in the small town in the South where they're from. And she says "I may not be saved, but at least I know what's wrong and what's right."

What Cat said.  Take this from someone who is a evangelical holy roller type and we are not all like this at all.  99 percent of us wouldn't do anything like that.  It is the other 1% that give the rest of us a bad name.  From my point of view, I would like everyone to believe what I do but I know it isn't going to happen.  If I do win someone to my point of view, I wouldn't be able to do it by saying things like that.  Saying hateful things like that only serve to drive people away, not bring them closer.




I agree 100% with this.  It's the small percentage that gives good Christians a bad name. It's a shame that this particular person views himself to be better than someone...enough to degrade him...at all places: his funeral. That's really a shame.

I agree 100% with this.  It's the small percentage that gives good Christians a bad name. It's a shame that this particular person views himself to be better than someone...enough to degrade him...at all places: his funeral. That's really a shame.


A small, and very loud and omnipresent, percentage...

I agree 100% with this.  It's the small percentage that gives good Christians a bad name. It's a shame that this particular person views himself to be better than someone...enough to degrade him...at all places: his funeral. That's really a shame.


Yeah, and what really burnt my uncle up is that Jim's wife & mother chose this guy to speak at the funeral because he was from their church, which Jim didn't attend, and they let him get by with the comment he made.  My uncle told me his and Jim's other friend pulled the Preacher aside after the burial and told him "that man in the casket you said lived a loser's life was a friend of mine for over thirty years and is one of the best men I ever knew, YOU'RE a piece of sh*t" and just walked off.  So at least someone told him he was out of line.

[quote author=

I had a hunch it was Southern Baptist. The corporatists have really poisoned that denomination. I must repeat, the Christian Right is not a religious movement, it is a political movement. The deception runs from Falwell and Robertson all the way to down to ministers in the backwaters of Louisiana. This process has been in play since the 1970s. It has been going on for so long, I'd wager most preachers and parishioners are not even aware their religion has been co-opted.
I said on another thread that everything the American Right does is in service of the corporate fascist oligarchy. They got ahold of the Southern Baptists early on, and guess what...?
Fascism came to Germany through bogus racial theory. It is coming to America through pseudo-religious propaganda.
You're right, no Christian minister would adjudge a dead man a "loser" unless the Christian minister was not a Christian minister at all! He was not serving as a preacher of Christ's teachings so much as a propagandist for Karl Rove!


You're on track there, I think.  Here in Tyler, Texas the local Green Acres Baptist Church is more like a corporation than a church.  It has several thousand members, 3 LARGE churches, daycares, school buildings etc. it takes up a couple of city blocks, and they own several local businesses too.  Its as much of a country club and a fundraising center for the local Republican party as anything, and they practically run the whole county.  In a place where many drink, they manage to keep it technically a dry county. 

And I'm telling you its RIDICULOUS because about half the population drinks pretty regularly, yet they have to drive across the line.  Its the wettest "dry" county you've ever seen.  Smith county is also known for it's large wealth gap, widespread unofficial racial segregation(if you look at a demographic layout of the city, the racial divisions are shockingly obvious), and for giving out more death sentences percentage-wise than any other county in the state.  This is TEXAS, mind you.

  Would it make a difference if someone presiding over a secular burial service had made this crass, distasteful and insensitive remark?  However, I know that the preacher is a representative of his respective faith and will take his lumps as a result...

  Reminds me of my grandfather's funeral (in 1995) when, and this is funny in retrospect, a Baptist minister and a Mormon minister were arguing over who would preside over the service.  This is at graveside, mind you!  The Baptist minister left in a huff when my cousin (a Mormon) backed-up the Mormon minister by insisting that a copy of The Book of Mormon be placed in his casket..!

  In the end I was out a hundred bucks because I had to pay the church for Baptist minister's services...

  Crazy...

 

[quote author=

"It was because Jim was an agnostic and did not attend church.  His wife did, and so I'm sure this jerk was aware of Jim and knew he did not come or participate in religion.  To these types, you're nothing but a soul to be saved like a customer is only a dollar sign to a large company.  You only have value to them if you're part of their "flock"."

You finally filled in the missing pieces.
So, your uncle was upset and angry but what about the deceased's (Jim's) wife ? What did she think of the comment, and it's her opinion that matters the most. I'm just curious.



What do you think? She said, "Right on! My late husband was such a pathetic looooooser!"
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/vogel.gif

[quote author=

A small, and very loud and omnipresent, percentage...


Only because they make a great story. "Nobody" wants to hear/read about the 99.9% that's doing a good job.

It's people that make a mess that get the attention - not the ones that clean it up afterwards.

  Would it make a difference if someone presiding over a secular burial service had made this crass, distasteful and insensitive remark?  However, I know that the preacher is a representative of his respective faith and will take his lumps as a result...


I definitely see where you're coming from here, but the thing is in this case his remarks were religiously motivated.  They weren't a personal attack on how Jim actually lived his day to day life.  This guy knew next to nothing about him.  Jim never attended his church.  All this guy knew was that Jim didn't attend his church and probably because his wife did come to church he knew Jim wasn't a Christian.  And to him that was all it took in his mind to say Jim led "a loser's life".  He has the right to his opinion(as ignorant as it is) but he was just way, way out of line saying something like that at a person's funeral.


"It was because Jim was an agnostic and did not attend church.  His wife did, and so I'm sure this jerk was aware of Jim and knew he did not come or participate in religion.  To these types, you're nothing but a soul to be saved like a customer is only a dollar sign to a large company.  You only have value to them if you're part of their "flock"."

You finally filled in the missing pieces.
So, your uncle was upset and angry but what about the deceased's (Jim's) wife ? What did she think of the comment, and it's her opinion that matters the most. I'm just curious.




Well, heres the thing.  Its NOT necessarily her opinion that matters the most here. It was up to her, but you see shes religious and attends church regularly.  According to my uncle Jim would mouth some of that stuff to her to keep her happy, but he really didn't believe in it any more than he believed in the Great Pumpkin.  But my uncle and his other friend who were stationed with Jim in a foreign country for over a year, they knew how Jim really was about that stuff.

Looking back my uncle realises the funeral is for the family and not the deceased (Jim) anyway.  And also he realises Jim was the kinda guy who would have probably just laughed at an ahole like that preacher.  Its just that even considering this, at the time, it upset him to see his friend's memory being used to preach about something that he actually didn't believe in at all.  I can understand how in a time like that after just losing him, that would upset him like that.

To answer your question, I don't know what she really thought.  Like I said my uncle was so upset he had to leave. 

Only because they make a great story. "Nobody" wants to hear/read about the 99.9% that's doing a good job.

It's people that make a mess that get the attention - not the ones that clean it up afterwards.


I meant in my personal life, not society as a whole.

I hate organized religion.  I was raised a Catholic and when I look back at the stuff I was told by the Church.......I can't believe I fell for it.  Birth control and murder will send you to hell.  Don't eat meat on Fridays during Lent.  Masturbation is a sin.  Women can't be priests.  Gays can't be fully-integrated members of society (they can't get married, they can't adopt). 

I just can't buy all of it anymore.  I feel like someone is telling me a long-winded fairy tale.  Poison apple in Snow White, poison apple in the book of Genesis.  Talking snake in Genesis, talking wolf in Little Red Riding Hood. 

Now, I have the utmost respect for people of faith because they obviously have a gene or something that I'm missing.  I stand in awe of people who can believe in things they can't see, hear or feel.

I hate organized religion.  I was raised a Catholic and when I look back at the stuff I was told by the Church.......I can't believe I fell for it.  Birth control and murder will send you to hell.  Don't eat meat on Fridays during Lent.  Masturbation is a sin.  Women can't be priests.  Gays can't be fully-integrated members of society (they can't get married, they can't adopt). 

I just can't buy all of it anymore.  I feel like someone is telling me a long-winded fairy tale.  Poison apple in Snow White, poison apple in the book of Genesis.  Talking snake in Genesis, talking wolf in Little Red Riding Hood. 

Now, I have the utmost respect for people of faith because they obviously have a gene or something that I'm missing.  I stand in awe of people who can believe in things they can't see, hear or feel.
Don't forget that if you can't get pregnant "naturally", that's wrong too.  There was recently a case about a teacher at a Catholic school who got pregnant through IVF and was fired because it goes against the church's "teachings" ::)

Alex, I was going to say the same thing you did a few posts above about the funeral really being for the family.  His wife is obviously a religious person and it probably gave her comfort to think that her husband was in heaven with God and Jesus.  It was STILL an asinine thing for the preacher to say.  He probably didn't even realize just HOW Offensive it was......let's see, this man lived his life for his family, he lived a "loser's life", so I guess that means all of us who live for our families are living "loser's lives".....I bet the wife didn't even realize that by slamming her husband, the preacher was actually slamming her as well ::)  What an a$$hole >:(

Alex, I was going to say the same thing you did a few posts above about the funeral really being for the family.  His wife is obviously a religious person and it probably gave her comfort to think that her husband was in heaven with God and Jesus.  It was STILL an asinine thing for the preacher to say.  He probably didn't even realize just HOW Offensive it was......let's see, this man lived his life for his family, he lived a "loser's life", so I guess that means all of us who live for our families are living "loser's lives".....I bet the wife didn't even realize that by slamming her husband, the preacher was actually slamming her as well ::)  What an a$$hole >:(


You're right, Kim.  His slam was not only an insult to Jim, but definitely to his family as well.  And I doubt she realised it.  Shes a nice person and loved her husband, but when it comes to religion shes traditional and weak on it.  And because of that just because this guy is her preacher, she probably won't even give a second thought to what he said.

You're right, too, about the fact that the Preacher probably did not realise he was being offensive.  To this type of believer, anything they say or do thats (in their mind, at least) motivated by their faith is justified and acceptable.  So just because this man was not a Christian like him, he decided to pass a judgement over his life at his own funeral.  I wonder if the man upstairs (if hes there) will be very thrilled to find out this Baptist preacher in Louisiana has already done his job for him?  ::) :D

The preacher must have missed the part in the Bible about judging not.

I am not against religion per se. I am against religious power mixing with state power. Religion never fails to become an agent of terror against the masses and excuse the crimes of the rich and powerful against the rest of us. That's what the Christian Right is all about. The fact that conservative Christians are not disgusted when Tom DeLay or Pat Robertson calls himself a "Christian" is evidence enough for me!

What Cat said.  Take this from someone who is a evangelical holy roller type and we are not all like this at all.  99 percent of us wouldn't do anything like that.  It is the other 1% that give the rest of us a bad name.  From my point of view, I would like everyone to believe what I do but I know it isn't going to happen.  If I do win someone to my point of view, I wouldn't be able to do it by saying things like that.  Saying hateful things like that only serve to drive people away, not bring them closer.


Just read this thread.  Once again, someone has already written just what I would say.  As a Christian, I'm really sorry for what happened in this situation.  I can see why your dad, and you, feel so angry. 

My uncle and me.

[quote author=

You're a real Christian :)


Thank you, Donnie.  :)

Very out of line for the funeral director to say "loser's life", very out of line.  Say blessings, pay respects, R.I.P. dignities and hope for more or bow for that's that.  Shouldn't kick a man when he's down, and when he's dead, he's down.

We've had this discussion before Alex and I will say exactly what I said before, religion comes down to personality.

Raised in a strict Catholic environment I was pretty much thrust in to the church from day one and had very mixed experiences.

I saw a few rather odd things going on that I shall not talk about at this moment, but on the whole I had mainly positive experiences. What drove me away from the church was my own beliefs and ideas, not so much the 'evil church'.. I digress.

In the church I went to as a boy there was a priest named Father Michael.

He was to this day one of the single most amazing individuals I have ever had the pleasure to meet.
An exceptionally friendly and intelligent individual.
Anything you asked him he would seriously think about, sometimes getting back to you a day or so later after contemplating it AND he wasn't afraid to say he didn't know.
I'd often ask questions that essentially we're posed in such a way that he'd have to give an answer that would go against some sort of biblical scripture.. and if he thought it made sense, he would.
He gave me a good piece of advice.
He pointed out that the bible is just guidelines, set out to show you a way in which you can co-exist with people, that makes sense.

Now, consider him for a moment whilst I tell you about the second priest.

After father Michael returned to his home in Ireland, we had a priest named Father Mallarchy.
PRICK!
He'd preach the gospel word for word and condemn anything that wasn't biblical. Now, by this time I'd already made great strides away from the church but I would ocasionally show up and question him.. his answers were always blunt, pointless and inane.

It's all down to personality.

Don't for a second think I am defending religion here in any way, I have major issues with all organised religions, but at the end of the day, it, like all things, is down to each individual.

As many of you know, I am a quite religious (Independent Baptist) person.  But, I just need 2 vent about the people of this church that my sister will now no longer be attending:

I have known the pastor and a lot of the people in this church for a long time from church camp.  This past fall I started bringing my boyfriend (who is Bengali) to church and people were somewhat friendly.  But they probably automatically assumed he was Muslim (which he's not) and once an engagement ring showed up on my hand, not a "hello" to either one of us.  So we quit going there.

Not to mention I was fed up with their attitude about music.  The music minister especially would always boast about how it's so great to just sing "hymns" and that "contemporary Christian" music was so "ungodly."  Or how their missionaries felt they needed to teach people in foreign countries the "meaning of true worship" because they clapped their hands when they sang praises.....

Well, my sister has been playing organ for this church and singing specials for several years, and quite a few times has gotten comments that something she wore was offensive to others.  Ok, if you see cleavage on a thin, perfectly covered woman from 40 feet back, you are LOOKING for trouble.  Anyway, a few weeks ago, the pastor & music minister decided to create these "guidelines" concerning what kind of songs are appropriate and how you are supposed to sing.  Also how to dress.  (women's clothing should be "loose-fitting?"  that's even more inappropriate IMO) 
The dress code also said women cannot wear slacks.  But because my sister plays organ she needs to be more modest (& make it easier to play the pedals) by wearing dress slacks so she talked to the music minister about it.  Who gave her a bunch of crap and said these are the rules you have to stick with it.   He also added that HIS WIFE, who "did not have a Christian dad" had to "learn a lot of this stuff" when they were first married.   :-\\   disgusting!   My sis noted that both her parents are Christian, and are ok with what she wears, to which he replied: "Well, not everyone is saved just cuz they say they are"   >:(
Yeah so anyway the next week she wears a summer turtleneck, and is told she can't play the organ in it because it's "sleeveless."  Yet married women can sing specials in low-cut blouses that show the top of their breasts.

So that's it, but there's something else we found out:  Well quite a while back, the assoc. pastor divorced his wife and had to leave the church.  He had been abusing his kids.  One of his daughters had been going to the pastor for at least 3 years telling him what was going on, and the pastor wouldn't do anything about it   >:( >:( >:(     Why can't these people be locked away

That's ridiculous.  He is more worried about what your sister is wearing than the well-being of kids in the congregation?  Sounds like she is lucky to be out of there.

That's ridiculous.  He is more worried about what your sister is wearing than the well-being of kids in the congregation?  Sounds like she is lucky to be out of there.
I agree.  At my ex-church, they used to be the same way.  It was a Catholic Church and GOD FORBID you showed a knee or shoulder or *GASP* a collarbone :o

IMO, it's the most outspoken members of any religion who are the most hypocritical.  Think back to a former member who was VERY outspoken, yet made some of the most "un-Christian" comments on the board ::)

I agree.  At my ex-church, they used to be the same way.  It was a Catholic Church and GOD FORBID you showed a knee or shoulder or *GASP* a collarbone :o


That's crazy.  I recently led prayer several weeks in a row at my church for this special sermon series we were doing.  Anyway.....one day I wore a dress that came just above my knees and one lady stopped me afterwards and said, "If you're going to lift your hands when you pray, you might not want to wear a dress that's so short!"  Well, she was older so I expect she grew up with different standards than what we have today.  But no one else cared, including the pastors.

That's crazy.  I recently led prayer several weeks in a row at my church for this special sermon series we were doing.  Anyway.....one day I wore a dress that came just above my knees and one lady stopped me afterwards and said, "If you're going to lift your hands when you pray, you might not want to wear a dress that's so short!"  Well, she was older so I expect she grew up with different standards than what we have today.  But no one else cared, including the pastors.



see, this is what is annoying at our church..it's basically who you are...and if you can get away with it. They give a sermon in the summer about the women/girls dressing modestly....but then if you happen to be a popular person in the church (ie..the pastor's son's girlfriend)....you can get away with wearing nearly anything. ::)

The immodest attire is connected to the rest of the popular culture, which is anathema to everything the major world religions teach. Whether I agree with the teachings or not has nothing to do with it. The point is, if they want to direct people to healthier, holier lives they need to provide some motivation. You know, they need to lead by example. Scolding female parishioners about skirt length isn't going to make the difference. I don't think anybody feels intimidated by the threat of burning in hell for showing too much leg!

Now over in Saudi Arabia where they practice Sharia law, they don't bother scolding a woman about exposed flesh. They just pull out a whip and thrash her. Somehow that doesn't seem like what Allah wants, but what do I know from Allah?
::)

When Carlos and I do religious rituals, we do them in the nude. But, they are private. Doing them in the nude, we don't have to worry about the candles we use.



Cat

see, this is what is annoying at our church..it's basically who you are...and if you can get away with it. They give a sermon in the summer about the women/girls dressing modestly....but then if you happen to be a popular person in the church (ie..the pastor's son's girlfriend)....you can get away with wearing nearly anything. ::)



Yup that's pretty much how it is.  Although in my sister's case, it's was more like  you can wear something short in length w/ a low neck line if you are "big-boned" or if u are married and have/are having kids.  But my sis is a petite single woman, and I think it makes them angry.

Oh yeah thats another thing, I hate when ANYBODY is like "Why hasn't so & so gotten married yet?" or "Why haven't they started trying to have kids yet?"    What, like by the time you're 22 you have to marry anything that walks and start making babies?

Yup that's pretty much how it is.  Although in my sister's case, it's was more like  you can wear something short in length w/ a low neck line if you are "big-boned" or if u are married and have/are having kids.  But my sis is a petite single woman, and I think it makes them angry.

Oh yeah thats another thing, I hate when ANYBODY is like "Why hasn't so & so gotten married yet?" or "Why haven't they started trying to have kids yet?"    What, like by the time you're 22 you have to marry anything that walks and start making babies?






My cousins are Mormon and the youngest one Marilyn, is a year younger than me (she's 23) and she gets that constantly.  Of course all her siblings are married with kids right now.  I told her to just ignore them and finish school.  Her education should come first.

Yup that's pretty much how it is.  Although in my sister's case, it's was more like  you can wear something short in length w/ a low neck line if you are "big-boned" or if u are married and have/are having kids.  But my sis is a petite single woman, and I think it makes them angry.

They're probably just jealous that she looks better than they do ;)

Had to deal with a couple of them last night at the hospital who were basically trying to "convert" me after I told them it wouldn't be necessary for them to stop in and "visit" my mom (but thanked them for the offer).....I told them (as nicely as I could) to bugger off ;)  Some of them are worse than car salesman ::)

Had to deal with a couple of them last night at the hospital who were basically trying to "convert" me after I told them it wouldn't be necessary for them to stop in and "visit" my mom (but thanked them for the offer).....I told them (as nicely as I could) to bugger off ;)  Some of them are worse than car salesman ::)


Just use my sister's tried and true method. Smile politely and tell them you and your family worship Satan. Guaranteed results.

Just use my sister's tried and true method. Smile politely and tell them you and your family worship Satan. Guaranteed results.


It works better if they're non-white Jehovah's Witnesses :D

"Honey, they's some (insert color here) people at the door!"

Good times.

It works better if they're non-white Jehovah's Witnesses :D

"Honey, they's some (insert color here) people at the door!"

Good times.


I still can't believe you said that. Dork. ;D

As many of you know, I am a quite religious (Independent Baptist) person.  But, I just need 2 vent about the people of this church that my sister will now no longer be attending:


"Preach the gospel at all times, and, when necessary, use words."
        - St. Francis of Assisi

Seems like you're doing a few hundred thousand times better by that standard than anyone at your former church was.  Good on you for leaving.  You done good.

Sometimes I imagine Jesus putting on a pair of dark shades and announcing His second coming by sneaking into his local megachurch, stand up, and reading the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount.  Betcha he'd get thrown out within 30 seconds.  I suppose it beats getting nailed to a tree... but from His point of view, probably not by much.

"Preach the gospel at all times, and, when necessary, use words."
        - St. Francis of Assisi

Seems like you're doing a few hundred thousand times better by that standard than anyone at your former church was.  Good on you for leaving.  You done good.

Sometimes I imagine Jesus putting on a pair of dark shades and announcing His second coming by sneaking into his local megachurch, stand up, and reading the Beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount.  Betcha he'd get thrown out within 30 seconds.  I suppose it beats getting nailed to a tree... but from His point of view, probably not by much.


I kinda wonder that sometimes myself.  I'm a christian who's not good enough for other christians a lot of the time.  I wonder if Jesus would be good enough for them.  He would be by fear and respect if they knew who he was walking through the door but he walks in and they dont' know who he is, I truly wonder.  White rags and unwashed hair..hmmm.  As Robert Plant would say, "it makes me wonder"

I kinda wonder that sometimes myself.  I'm a christian who's not good enough for other christians a lot of the time.  I wonder if Jesus would be good enough for them.  He would be by fear and respect if they knew who he was walking through the door but he walks in and they dont' know who he is, I truly wonder.  White rags and unwashed hair..hmmm.  As Robert Plant would say, "it makes me wonder"

As Del Shannon would say, "I wa-wa-wa-wa wonder..."
:D

I kinda wonder that sometimes myself.  I'm a christian who's not good enough for other christians a lot of the time.  I wonder if Jesus would be good enough for them.  He would be by fear and respect if they knew who he was walking through the door but he walks in and they dont' know who he is, I truly wonder.  White rags and unwashed hair..hmmm.  As Robert Plant would say, "it makes me wonder"


Jesus hung around with people that many of the religious folk would have shunned.  You're point is a good one, very much worth wondering about.  :)

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One thing I don't understand guys and gals, and please don't take this the wrong way but it seems to me you let your relationship with God be based souly on that of your experience with fellow Christians.  A Christian is an asshole to you in some way or another you associate that with God being an asshole you to you.  I mean I understand bad things happening to people and tragedies like death and failure and constant unluckyness making one skeptical of God's existance or at least the compassion and love of that God.  However, I'm just having trouble with why people want to proclaim that they're athiest based on that of other Christians and not of God himself. 

Does a team of asshole baseball players make all baseball horrible and rotten? or for the matter Baseball itself a horrible thing?

You hate one kid at a school? Must you hate the school itself and everybody in it?

I'm sorry but I just don't get the logic in this, please forgive me, I failed Calculas in school too.

I was going to say something along those lines...

Hating all religious people is like saying you hate all people who choose to get their noses pierced, because you disagree with the ethicality of body piercings. It's honestly just as much of a generalization as saying you hate all Jewish or black people. There are some religious people who are total hypocrites who I hate. But it's not all religious people. I remember my mom telling me she got disillusioned with this when she worked in the museum at Yeshiva University. Prior to this experience, she had thought Orthodox Jews to be morally irreprehensible with all the guilt of "lapsed" Jews with Orthodox antecedents such as myself and herself. But some of the people she worked with there were some of the worst people she ever worked with. Then and again, there are some lovely Orthodox Jews. It's just as intolerant to say you "hate all religious people" as what that as*hole of a preacher did.

I was going to say something along those lines...

Hating all religious people is like saying you hate all people who choose to get their noses pierced, because you disagree with the ethicality of body piercings.
Ask the evangelicals about those people!

Ask the evangelicals about those people!


  Good day to you, sir...

  While Jesus may not be outraged over tongue piercing or toothbrush sharing he is surely disappointed by those who flout the common sense notions of how to live well; His followers should be too...

  Hippies, tongue rods, and saving grace, all in a dozen threads or so...

Ask the evangelicals about those people!


Well, of course the evangelicals will say they're sinners. One thing my friend Allison told me, who lived in N. Carolina for three years, is that it's the evangelical's daughters who are most likely to get themselves impregnated as teenagers. Well, abstinence sex ed is crapola!

Well, of course the evangelicals will say they're sinners. One thing my friend Allison told me, who lived in N. Carolina for three years, is that it's the evangelical's daughters who are most likely to get themselves impregnated as teenagers. Well, abstinence sex ed is crapola!


Well maybe where you come from Sex Education is crapola but where I come from I saw it actually help a lot.  Did it stop guys and girls from having sex? No, it didn't.  However sometimes you have to look at the little advantages rather than just the big ones.  A ant hill is much more impressive than the ants that live in it, however no ants, no ant hill.  I look at this sort of the same way.  Sex ed in my area during my time of taking it helped a lot of young girls realize that there are ways to get birth control pills at low cost and confidentiality.  Helped young men realize the importance of condoms and how one should always use one.  Put a lot of fear in both the guys and girls of STD's.  You'd be surprised all the stuff we learned, it seems common sense and basic knowledge but yet without sex Ed many wouldn't have known it. 

Even though I'm ugly and getting laid too much isn't a problem a deal with, I'm glad I along with the other kids I had Sex Ed while in high school, even if I never have to use it, like a lot of math.

Well maybe where you come from Sex Education is crapola but where I come from I saw it actually help a lot.  Did it stop guys and girls from having sex? No, it didn't.  However sometimes you have to look at the little advantages rather than just the big ones.  A ant hill is much more impressive than the ants that live in it, however no ants, no ant hill.  I look at this sort of the same way.  Sex ed in my area during my time of taking it helped a lot of young girls realize that there are ways to get birth control pills at low cost and confidentiality.  Helped young men realize the importance of condoms and how one should always use one.  Put a lot of fear in both the guys and girls of STD's.   You'd be surprised all the stuff we learned, it seems common sense and basic knowledge but yet without sex Ed many wouldn't have known it.   

Even though I'm ugly and getting laid too much isn't a problem a deal with, I'm glad I along with the other kids I had Sex Ed while in high school, even if I never have to use it, like a lot of math.


That's not the kind of sex ed I'm talking about, sweetie. I mean the kind of sex ed where they make you sign like, an abstinence pledge and that's all they do, and don't even provide info about protection.

That's not the kind of sex ed I'm talking about, sweetie. I mean the kind of sex ed where they make you sign like, an abstinence pledge and that's all they do, and don't even provide info about protection.


I'm a guy, you're a guy.  Please don't call me sweetie. 

Closeminded Marvin "Repeat after me.  I will not have sex until marriage"
Sally "I will not have sex until marriage........"

Closeminded Marvin leaves the room

Sally "NOT!"

I'm a guy, you're a guy.  Please don't call me sweetie. 


Understand he's gay. He's a cool guy, he wouldn't make a move on you if you didn't want it. :)

Well, of course the evangelicals will say they're sinners. One thing my friend Allison told me, who lived in N. Carolina for three years, is that it's the evangelical's daughters who are most likely to get themselves impregnated as teenagers. Well, abstinence sex ed is crapola!


If you admonish your teenage daughter: "Sex is dirty and shameful. You must remain chaste,"
she's going to get in trouble.

If you embolden your teenage daughter: "Sex is wonderful! Revel in it!,"
she's going to get in trouble.

The first is the traditional Victorian shame-based attitude that denies all positive things about sexuality. The second is the post-"sexual revolution" extreme that promotes sex as a recreational commodity. Both are equally sick and dangerous.
My phraseology may sound sexist to you...and it is. I am responding to the vagaries of a sexist society. The purveyors of the social memes prior to the 1960s knew males were sexual aggressors as soon as puberty struck. They did not pretend there were magic words you could say to boys that would make them apply wisdom before hormones. The drawback of the old story was the double standard.  A conservative father may castigate his son for romping with a prositute, but the old man was saying to himself, "That's mah boy!"  If the same man's daughter got busted for having sex in the back seat of a Buick, she would be lucky if her parents didn't disown her.

The "sexual revolution" had good intentions when its scholars postulated we had to get rid of those double standards and make men and women, boys and girls equal...and then we can teach both genders to share healthy sex with mutual respect. We all wanted them to be right about this. I did. The scholars were dead wrong. This much was apparent by the mid-'70s. I mentioned earlier the "commodification" of sex everywhere from Cosmopolitan magazine to HBO's "Real Sex" to MTV, and to BangBus.com. Cosmo's Helen Gurley Brown had no more respect for young women than do the lads of BangBus, and both made money hand over fist.

The equality never came. Neither did the respect. It is still the same as it was in 1955. If a guy sleeps around, he's stud (positive connotations), if a girl sleeps around, she's a slut (negative connotations). The same collegiate scholars who screamed themselves hoarse about "date rape" for the past 20 years screamed themselves doubly hoarse at the same time about how it is a woman's right to wear a leather micro-mini and not have guys catcall.

It is the conservative pundits who point these things out. Well, I'm not one of them. I am a liberal. Part of being a liberal is taking the responsibility to make up your own mind and not agree with the "liberal" consensus when the consensus makes no sense. Four decades of empirical evidence shows men will never treat women well if women are sexually flamboyant. Not fair, I know. I'm not talking "ought," I'm talking "is."

There are individual males who don't conform, and I'm one of them. Remember in Catcher in the Rye when Holden Caulfield says he's not like other guys, when a girl tells him to stop, he stops? Salinger did not include that in the narration to make Holden's character more appealing to female readers. The passage is illustration of yet another social norm from which Holden finds himself alienated. That was the 1940s perspective. A girl who would get herself into a situation like that was not worthy of respect. She's a slut, and no means yes. Holden is not regarded as conscientious, just a wuss.

I took the "no means no" lessons seriously, and I never went ahead if a woman asked me to stop. Not just because I could get in trouble, but because it was the right thing to do. If she sent out duplicitous signals, she had a problem. If she's that confused, I don't want to proceed. I would not feel right about it. It's just wrong action.

I did not watch hardcore pornography with the prejudice that I would not enjoy it. Just the opposite. The horror and pathos were completely surprising to me. It was my conscience telling me there was something fundamentally abusive about what I was witnessing. I did not become an anti-porn crusader, but I found the "it's-all-consensual-women-like-to-do-it-it's-good-money-they-don't-make-anybody-act-against-her-will-it's-good-money-better-than-flipping-burgers-if-you-don't-like-it-you're-the-sexist-you-don't-like-women-taking-charge-of-their sexuality..." cliche rhetoric utterly bogus.

I met Annie Sprinkle of "Sluts and Goddesses" fame. Many years ago my sister was doing some free-lance journalism, she was assigned to interview Annie Sprinkle.* She was a nice lady, sincere, even charming, or so it seemed when I met her at her apartment on Lexington Avenue. Retrospecively, I thought Ms. Sprinkle is either very confused or very cynical. Bringing it back to topic, this sexual revolution sought to rid us of the RELIGIOUS hang-ups. One of the worst sexual/religious hang-ups for men is the "madonna/whore" complex. Contrary to its mission, Annie Sprinkle's "Sluts and Goddesses" workshops re-invigorated the old complex. It's all for the sake of commodity. Sex roles have not changed since the 1950s, they are merely blurred by a destructive porn pop culture.

If we are going to reform the damage wrought over the past forty years, we cannot go back to RELIGIOUS SHAME and start all that silliness again. We do have to get out of denial, however. We have to admit the dismal failure of the "sexual revolution" to equalize men and women. The intention to do so is not even there anymore, not anywhere. I don't see it. We have to admit boys and girls are hardwired differently and denial of that will only cause more harm. Should sex education be secular? Yes. Should sex education be realistic? Yes. Should sex education continue to apply failed social experiments? Absolutely not.