Oh, so I guess in the end he wasn't as big an azzh0le as I thought he was!



Well he was a complicated man that's for sure.  There is an excellent documentary biography about him (it is NOT pornographic) called Wadd: The Life and Times of John C. Holmes, which actually won quite a few awards at mainstream film festivals.  I recommend it highly to anybody who wants to know what can happen to you if you get tied up in either porn or drugs, especially 'base.  Not pretty.

Well he was a complicated man that's for sure.  There is an excellent documentary biography about him (it is NOT pornographic) called Wadd: The Life and Times of John C. Holmes, which actually won quite a few awards at mainstream film festivals.  I recommend it highly to anybody who wants to know what can happen to you if you get tied up in either porn or drugs, especially 'base.  Not pretty.

Most guys would figger, If I had what Johnny Wadd had, I'd be so happy I wouldn't need no drugs! But, you know, they say money doesn't make you happy, and neither does a gargantuan...
:-X

Well, they don't have a Max Hardcore problem in Saudi Arabia!


I'd bet serious money that Max Hardcore is playing somewhere in Saudi Arabia.

That said, in Saudi Arabia you would not get caught watching it a second time.  :P

I ramble too far and wide on this topic as it is. If I were to discuss every related topic, I'd end up writing a book! As far as I know the "mail order bride" phenomenon runs from legit to criminal. It depends. I know one fellow, a photographer* in his sixties who married a Chinese "mail order" bride around age 30. I guess that was about ten years ago. He was more than decent to her, he helped her set up her own clothing boutique and she does a brisk business on Main Street today. Prior to marrying this guy, she was working in some sweatshop in Chinatown, NYC.
I have also heard of "mail order brides" used as kept women and concubines. Furthermore, I have heard of "mail order brides" as agents of the Russian mafia. It cuts both ways. When I was on the stupid Yahoo! dating site, I used to get bogus solicitations from women in the Philippines and Russia. I assume they were bogus. They seemed to be gorgeous young Filipinas and Russians who wanted to be my mail order bride, I didn't know what their angle was, and I didn't care to find out. Haven't been on Yahoo for over a year, but now I get similar spam solicitations in my email!
Now, allegedly, you can go over to Eastern Europe (Ukraine, Latvia, Romania, etc.) as an American man and go to find-a-bride resorts where twenty hot chickies will vie for your matramonial overtures. Never known anyone who went on such a junket, but I assume these are tied in with organized crime and you might be the one who gets exploited in the end!

*no, not that kind of photographer!
:P


your solution to seal the southern border to "protect women" would not stop the "mail order bride phenomenon."

denouncing pornography is merely shadow boxing with the problem female exploitation. If you really want to help women you should raise hell against NAFTA, WTO, and other forms of so-called "free trade" where corporate capatalist multinational companies exploit the living hell out of women all over the world.

your solution to seal the southern border to "protect women" would not stop the "mail order bride phenomenon."

denouncing pornography is merely shadow boxing with the problem female exploitation. If you really want to help women you should raise hell against NAFTA, WTO, and other forms of so-called "free trade" where corporate capatalist multinational companies exploit the living hell out of women all over the world.


I see you are not very familiar with Max.  I if you were you would know that he does raise a lot of hell about all the above.  He says it loud, he says it proud.

your solution to seal the southern border to "protect women" would not stop the "mail order bride phenomenon."

denouncing pornography is merely shadow boxing with the problem female exploitation. If you really want to help women you should raise hell against NAFTA, WTO, and other forms of so-called "free trade" where corporate capatalist multinational companies exploit the living hell out of women all over the world.

I agree. No question a Bengaladeshi garment worker has it worse than a Chatsworth porn performer.

I have not made my mind up about "pornography," I am observing trends in the business I find disturbing. Does the "mail order bride phenomenon" need to be stopped or just better regulated?  Shoudl pornography be better regulated to protect the participants?  Is this really possible? I don't pretend to have THE answers here.

I agree. No question a Bengaladeshi garment worker has it worse than a Chatsworth porn performer.

I have not made my mind up about "pornography," I am observing trends in the business I find disturbing. Does the "mail order bride phenomenon" need to be stopped or just better regulated?  Shoudl pornography be better regulated to protect the participants?  Is this really possible? I don't pretend to have THE answers here.


pornography should be deregulated. In Denmark, I hear that there is a free porno channel on TV running all the time! It has caused demand for porn to decrease.

On a related vein, Larry Flynt has stated that if such policies were adopted here he would go broke!

Mail order brides are the modern slaves. the practice should be abolished.

All this porno bashing by the likes of MacKinnon is merely a distraction from what reallymatters.

For example, on March 19th, 2003, the feminists of London protested against the  porn industry.
It was the same day that the bombs began falling on Iraq ...

You thinking of travelling there?  ;D


to a varying  degrees, prostitution is legal in every country, except one

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html

pornography should be deregulated. In Denmark, I hear that there is a free porno channel on TV running all the time! It has caused demand for porn to decrease.

On a related vein, Larry Flynt has stated that if such policies were adopted here he would go broke!

Mail order brides are the modern slaves. the practice should be abolished.

All this porno bashing by the likes of MacKinnon is merely a distraction from what reallymatters.

For example, on March 19th, 2003, the feminists of London protested against the  porn industry.
It was the same day that the bombs began falling on Iraq ...

Western European countries have a more liberal attitude toward pornography than America does, but America consumes more porn per capita. There are good thing and bad things about the liberal policies on porn and prostituion in places such as Denmark and Holland.

As I explained earlier, I am not trying to pull a Catherine MacKinnon here. I am not trying to dictate what kinds of porn adults should or should not be able to participate in or watch.  I am merely making observations and asking questions. I know my posts are long-winded, but I do take care in them to explain myself. I said earlier I still consume pornography, I just eschew the kinds I find repugnant. It wouldn't be appropriate to the parameters of this forum to go into too much detail here. I recently quoted the lawyerly maxim, "never ask a question to which you do not already know the answer." That is exactly NOT what I am doing. I have not drawn any conclusions. My questions are not rhetorical. I do not have a prejudicial agenda.


to a varying  degrees, prostitution is legal in every country, except one

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html


In every city in America there is prostitution. The prostitutes working the streets in many cities almost universally suffer from STDs, drug addictions, and violence at the hands of pimps or johns. What you have in Holland or New Zealand is an effort to maintian public health and safety. They don't call it "the world's oldest profession" for nothing. I favor a policy on prostitution at least as progressive as what they have in Canada or Britain. The civilized world also has nationalized or socialized healthcare. It easier for them to set up clinics where prostitutes can go for health checkups. In some countries, such as Holland, prositutes must obtain a license and show up for periodic health screenings. Furthermore, if prostitution is a crime, then a prostitute has nowhere to turn if he* or she is being extorted or abused by a pimp, a john, or a dealer. If the cops see prostitutes as criminals, they will not afford them the same kind of consideration as others when they are victims of assault or robbery. In spite of all the crackdowns American cities have imposed on hookers, they're still around and always will be.

However--let's not kid ourselves. There are still problems with drugs, disease, and violence among prostitutes in the more liberal democracies. The point is, if a prostitute is not a criminal committing a crime, he or she can more easily get extricated from a bad situation. Again, it goest to public health and safety.

*The male prostitutes who are victims of crime tend to be adolescent or very young adults out servicing other men. It's not as widespread a problem as violence against female prostitutes, but it does exist.

You still are not understanding what it is that is trying to be discussed.

The underlying reasons that put a young females in a position of sexual victimization, and the complicity of society in regards to that victimization.

I don't know how much clearer it can be said.
If you're talking about minors, I don't see where ANYONE is trying to justify that and society is CERTAINLY not "complicit" to an 11 year old being "sold into slavery".  Of course, there are the sicko pedophiles out there who are all for it, but I wouldn't consider them "society".

Western European countries have a more liberal attitude toward pornography than America does, but America consumes more porn per capita. There are good thing and bad things about the liberal policies on porn and prostituion in places such as Denmark and Holland.

As I explained earlier, I am not trying to pull a Catherine MacKinnon here. I am not trying to dictate what kinds of porn adults should or should not be able to participate in or watch.  I am merely making observations and asking questions. I know my posts are long-winded, but I do take care in them to explain myself. I said earlier I still consume pornography, I just eschew the kinds I find repugnant. It wouldn't be appropriate to the parameters of this forum to go into too much detail here. I recently quoted the lawyerly maxim, "never ask a question to which you do not already know the answer." That is exactly NOT what I am doing. I have not drawn any conclusions. My questions are not rhetorical. I do not have a prejudicial agenda.

In every city in America there is prostitution. The prostitutes working the streets in many cities almost universally suffer from STDs, drug addictions, and violence at the hands of pimps or johns. What you have in Holland or New Zealand is an effort to maintian public health and safety. They don't call it "the world's oldest profession" for nothing. I favor a policy on prostitution at least as progressive as what they have in Canada or Britain. The civilized world also has nationalized or socialized healthcare. It easier for them to set up clinics where prostitutes can go for health checkups. In some countries, such as Holland, prositutes must obtain a license and show up for periodic health screenings. Furthermore, if prostitution is a crime, then a prostitute has nowhere to turn if he* or she is being extorted or abused by a pimp, a john, or a dealer. If the cops see prostitutes as criminals, they will not afford them the same kind of consideration as others when they are victims of assault or robbery. In spite of all the crackdowns American cities have imposed on hookers, they're still around and always will be.

However--let's not kid ourselves. There are still problems with drugs, disease, and violence among prostitutes in the more liberal democracies. The point is, if a prostitute is not a criminal committing a crime, he or she can more easily get extricated from a bad situation. Again, it goest to public health and safety.

*The male prostitutes who are victims of crime tend to be adolescent or very young adults out servicing other men. It's not as widespread a problem as violence against female prostitutes, but it does exist.



legalizing prostitution would allow the sexworkers to be their own 'independant contractors" and free them from abusive, exploitative pimps as the one shown here

http://www.uh.edu/~lharris4/pimp.gif

legalizing prostitution would allow the sexworkers to be their own 'independant contractors" and free them from abusive, exploitative pimps as the one shown here

http://www.uh.edu/~lharris4/pimp.gif

Hey, "exotic dancing" is legal, and there's no exploitation of dancers by the strip clubs. No suh!
I agree with legalizing prostitution to make it safer and less risky, but you'll never take the exploitation out of the sex industry. Legalization would help to put a check on those nasty pimps, though.

I almost forgot: legalizing prostitution would also liberate sexworkers from abusive and exploitative clients as well

I almost forgot: legalizing prostitution would also liberate sexworkers from abusive and exploitative clients as well


Legalize and unionize, the world would be a better place.

abusive, exploitative pimps as the one shown here

http://www.uh.edu/~lharris4/pimp.gif



Wowzers! Pimps actually dress like that?  ;D

Legalize and unionize, the world would be a better place.


most definately

But would you say there is misogyny at large?
???

In our whole society or what?

But would you say there is misogyny at large?
???


misogyny, Aryan supremcacy, classism-- amriKKKa has something for everyone!!!

But would you say there is misogyny at large?
???


Not so much misogyny, all though there is enough to go around, but lack of respect.

It is the glee and vindictiveness with which the "family values" type media pundits pursue this the Duke Lacrosse rape case in favor of the defense that annoys me. If the accuser were a white cheerleader who claims she was attacked by a frat of black basketball players, the roles would be reversed. Period.
In my following of this case in the media, only once has it been mentioned in passing by these "family values" types that it might not be such a for college guys to hire strippers, not because it is immoral and exploitative, but because THEY..the frat boys...might get in trouble.

Mr. White Conservative, you don't know it, but your daughter is financing her lifestyle as a stripper. She's gyrating naked around a pole tonight...is that OK with you. She has a cocaine problem, do you write her off? She comes to you bruised and battered and says she was sexually assaulted, do you say, "you get what you deserve, you lying slut."

Whether or not the accuser in the Duke Lacrosse rape case is lying or telling the truth not the point. We have some pretty effed-up values in this culture and a lot of our fellow citizens swimming in a sea of pain and trouble. I would think the "family values" crowd would be a bit more Christian and forgiving toward this woman who is obviously suffering the ravages of abuse and deprivation. That does not mean turn the tables and attack the Duke boys as subhuman predators. That's what the "militant feminists" do in these cases, and it is equally counterproductive.

It just seems to me the pain and suffering of an individual counts for a lot less if the individual is NOT WHITE!

You can bet Sean Hannity would punch you in the mouth of you said Natalee Hollaway was just little floozy who had it coming.

You can bet Sean Hannity would punch you in the mouth of you said Natalee Hollaway was just little floozy who had it coming.





ANYONE who says that a woman deserves to be raped and murdered and thrown in the ocean, no matter her behavior, deserves to be punched in the mouth.

ANYONE who says that a woman deserves to be raped and murdered and thrown in the ocean, no matter her behavior, deserves to be punched in the mouth.


You've missed my point. This country talks a lot about Christianity but has a hard time understanding the basic teachings of Jesus. We don't really know what happened to Natalee Hollaway, but the media sells sorrow and compassion on her behalf. We don't really know either what happened in that hell-house of jocks, but the media sells contempt and hatred for the accuser. It's as plain as day the difference has to do with skin color and family social status of each woman.

So...who would Jesus hate?

You've missed my point. This country talks a lot about Christianity but has a hard time understanding the basic teachings of Jesus. We don't really know what happened to Natalee Hollaway, but the media sells sorrow and compassion on her behalf. We don't really know either what happened in that hell-house of jocks, but the media sells contempt and hatred for the accuser. It's as plain as day the difference has to do with skin color and family social status of each woman.

So...who would Jesus hate?



I am aware that in both situations, there is a lack of knowledge of what really happened.  However, I'm saying that anyone who says that either woman deserved what they got, needs a punch in the face.

I am aware that in both situations, there is a lack of knowledge of what really happened.  However, I'm saying that anyone who says that either woman deserved what they got, needs a punch in the face.


Who would Jesus punch in the face?
;D

Who would Jesus punch in the face?
;D


Karl Rove

We don't really know either what happened in that hell-house of jocks, but the media sells contempt and hatred for the accuser...


according to dissemenated reports, the other stripper claims the rape allegations are " a crock"

according to dissemenated reports, the other stripper claims the rape allegations are " a crock"

1. Perhaps the accuser lies maliciously, if so the court should dismiss the charges. Why does the right-wing news media express rage against this accuser and give the Diebold Corporation a pass?

2. Compassion isn't easy, not like contempt.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13634279/

I hoped to advance the discussion beyond the litigation at hand. If the woman lied, dismiss the case. In brief, what I see is a woman who is herself a bigger victim than those Duke jocks will ever know.
White males perpetuate injustice upon black females 24/7 365. No one cares. Turn the tables just once and it's a national scandal. Those jocks are only victims of their own swinish personalities.
The woman is only one of countless women battered by a hard life, drug abuse, and psychiatric problems who has turned to the sex industry, which will slowly kill her. Nobody--not even the puritanical right-wing--wants to talk about this. Is anybody here capable of seeing who the real victim is in this case, who will suffer the most when the case is all over and don with, and the systemic misogyny that drives our modern sex industry? I'm not here to condemn anybody for watching porn or going to strip joints, I just wish there was a more conscientious attitude and more compassion for people in pain, as this woman obviously is.
::)

I hoped to advance the discussion beyond the litigation at hand. If the woman lied, dismiss the case. In brief, what I see is a woman who is herself a bigger victim than those Duke jocks will ever know.
White males perpetuate injustice upon black females 24/7 365. No one cares. Turn the tables just once and it's a national scandal. Those jocks are only victims of their own swinish personalities.
The woman is only one of countless women battered by a hard life, drug abuse, and psychiatric problems who has turned to the sex industry, which will slowly kill her. Nobody--not even the puritanical right-wing--wants to talk about this. Is anybody here capable of seeing who the real victim is in this case, who will suffer the most when the case is all over and don with, and the systemic misogyny that drives our modern sex industry? I'm not here to condemn anybody for watching porn or going to strip joints, I just wish there was a more conscientious attitude and more compassion for people in pain, as this woman obviously is.
::)


I am sorry, I just can't buy this.  This person has tried to ruin the lives of several people, simply because she was pissed off.  If this had gone to trial and a conviction achieved, all of these men would have had to wear the label "sex criminal" for the rest of their lives.  They could never be teachers, law enforcement officers, enter the military, get a stock brokers license, or hold down many other jobs.

And don't be so quick to jump in the defense of people in the sex industry.  Trust me, most of the women that get into stripping know full well what they are doing.  In fact, most of the time they themselves are the preditors.

And trust me, I have worked in the stripping industry off and on for over 10 years.  I stoarted working as a DJ in strip clubs in 1995, and have done it off and on ever since then.  I have worked both high end "Gentlemens Clubs" in LA, and in sleezy dives in the ghetto areas of both LA and Alabama.  Every gal I ever met knew exactly what she was doing when she got into that line of work.

What this gal was doing is what is known as "outcall".  That is even lower then working in clubs, and most of the gals that follow that line are what we call "semi-pro hookers".  One way you can tell the ones that are hookers from the ones that are not is the chapperone.

A legitimate outcall dancer will have at least one chapperone with her.  His job is to both protect the girl, and to make sure that nothing illegal happens.  And by illegal, I mean prostitution.  Those that are really dancing as a front for prostitution tend to have no chapperone.  They are doing it as a way to make more money, and without any protection or approval of any club or company.

At the Gentlemans Club I worked at, there were very specific rules as to conduct.  Off-premises jobs were not allowed, and if the club found out that a dancer had done one, she would be terminated.  In fact, dating the patrons or employees (even as a legitimate relationship) was not allowed, and would also result in termination.  The same rules applied for alcohol or drug use.  Either possession on the premises or showing up under the influence of any drug or alcohol would result in instant termination.

On the other end, the first club I worked for here in Alabama was a real dive.  Every night after closing I would have to clean up the dressing room, and it was not unusual to find needles, coke straws, and baggies for crack on the floor and on the counters.  Over half the girls turned tricks on the side.  They would make the dates in the cllub, and meet the guys afterwards in their motel rooms.  They knew fully well what they were doing, and the owners did not care.  I worked there for only 3 months before I got a better legitimate job and quit.

You tend to find 2 different groups that are in that industry.  One is the women that are only doing it for a short time.  Most of them treat the stripping as a job, and will not do anything else.  I knew a lot that fell under this area who were either single moms or strudents.  They do it for a few years, then get a better job and move on with their life, and put it behind them.

The other is the ones that can't or won't do anything else.  Most of these have drug or alcohol problems when they enter the trade, and are unable to hold down any other kind of job.  They will work as a stripper for as long as their appearance allows them.  A lot of these will eventually turn to hooking once they are unable to work as a dancer anymore.

But I simply can't see letting this gal go, because she was "abused".  She tried to destroy the lives of several men, simply because somehow she was upset at them.  She could have claimed they beat her, or robbed her.  Charges like that would have been harder to disprove, and really would not have left a major crime on their record.  Instead, she accused them all of rape, which would have resulted in long prison sentences, and being listed as a sex offender for the rest of their lives.

No matter what scum they may be, nobody desserves to have that hanging around their neck if they are innocent.  And none of these men made her put the crack pipe in her mouth.

^ Good points here. I have heard differing testimony about what *really* goes on at strip clubs from dancers and employees. I have never worked at one, but I have patronized my share of them.

It may sound like I think this prostitute (and that's what she apparently was) is some innocent babe in the woods. I don't even wish to suggest she is nice or decent person. She sounds savage, reckless, and vindictive to me. I wouldn't invite her over to my house for milk and cookies for chrissakes!

What I am saying is she was not created in a vacuum. Like I said in my first post, she's not an aberration. I don't have to like this person to sympathize with her predicament, and the predicaments of so mny like her. I cannot just say, "she's a crackwhore and a troublemaker," without asking how and why.

I admit I have a bias against college jocks who want to go work on Wall Street. In the end, I think they're the sort of people who perpetuate the social and economic disparities that create the sort of criminal despair you see with this accuser.

I'm not comfortable letting her malice go without sanction, but I don't believe throwing her in jail is going to make anything better either.

^ Good points here. I have heard differing testimony about what *really* goes on at strip clubs from dancers and employees. I have never worked at one, but I have patronized my share of them.


A lot of that depends on the class of the clib itself.

I was lucky, in that one of the first I worked for was an upscale "Gentlemans Club".  It was a lesser club of an LA chain, and was was often used as either a "training ground" for new dancers, or as a kind of semi-retirement for the older dancers.  I wokred in the days most of the time, where about half of the ladies were single moms.  Most of them saw it as just another kind of job, doing their 11-6 job then going home.  We had a few that came and went, most of them were either college girls that were doing it for more money, or girls that wanted to do it professionally, and either moved up to one of the more "high income" clubs, or into actual pornography.

And this club was among the best employers I have had.  We all had health and dental insurance available, 401K, and other benefits.  And we all made a wage (normally minimum wage), and most of the income was actually tips.  On an average day, I got around $60-100 in tops alone.

And although it was small, the club was well taken care of.  I had controll of a $100,000 sound and lighting system, and they spent an average of $50-200,000 a year on renovations.  The average "club take" on a weekday shift was probably around $2-5,000 a day, with evenings being much much higher.  This would range from a guy that would come in and spend $10 on lunch and a drink, to an overseas traveler who comes in and dumps $2,000 before catching a flight home.  And we had a fair number of actors, singers,  and athletes that came in.

And although they will never admit it, we all knew that the club was owned by the Mafia.  They had strict no drugs - no drinking - no illegal touching - no sex on or off premises rules.  And they were enforced, because an average of 2-4 girls a month were fired because of violations of these rules.  And even though we handled huge amounts of cash, the place had only been robbed once in over 20 years.  From the stories I heard, the gangmembers gave themselves up to police afterwards and returned the money rather then face the wrath of the actual owners of the club.

This is because strip clubs are a common way to launder money.  It is a largely cash business, where there is no product offered so no inventory to worry about.  Several years ago there was a club in Compton that was shut down because it was being used to launder drug money for an LA gang.  I remember that it was an embarasment, because the DEA seized the club, and had to find somebody to buy it.

I will probably never work another strip club though.  I do not even go to them.  I worked in a couple since then, and each time it was horrible.  The 2 clubs I worked at here in Alabama were dives.  The girls normally got drunk (unlike California, you can buy alcohol in a strip club in Alabama), and quite a few were obvious drug addicts.  And the attitudes were also quite different.  At LA Club, all the women were beautiful, and they were working off of that to make a living.  I know of 2 with colllege degrees, and 3 that worked as models.  They enjoyed working at the club because it paid well, had good benefits, and let them set their own hours.

The clubs in Alabama however tended to attract women that basically were unable to do any other job.  Most of them would be what I consider "perpetual loosers", and most had substence abuse problems.  In addition, at least half "dated" on the side.  I lost count of the number of times I had customers try to get me to pass the dancers notes with their hotel rooms.  I would always refuse, telling them that it was their affair, I wanted no part in it.  After all, I was only working as a DJ, I did not want some undercover VIce cop to try and stick me with a pandering charge because I passed along a note.

I got into DJing at strip clubs simply because I needed a job.  I got laid off from Boeing Satellite after they bought it from Hughes in 2001, and needed a job.  I had worked as a DJ off and on since 1982, and had worked briefly at a bikini bar years earlier in the Bay area.  And because there was a recession at the time, there were almost no jobs for a computer tech or network engineer.  I enjoyed the job, because I basically got paid to play music, something I really love.  However, the clubs that we have in the area have soured me on ever doing it again.  I would rather DJ for a funeral or a Sweet 16 party before I step foot into another one of the clubs in this area.  Other then taking a few clients to one last year when I moonlighted as a limo driver, I have not been to a club like that in over 2 years, and I do not miss it at all.

^ Exactly, a lot of those places are run by the mob. There's always an undercurrent of menace and violence when it comes to organized crime. Again, "perpetual losers" are not created in a vacuum. Nobody forces the girls to do what they do, not in the conventional sense of force. However, when a girl turns to drugs, exotic dancing, and prostitution, there's always a sad story behind it.

^ Exactly, a lot of those places are run by the mob. There's always an undercurrent of menace and violence when it comes to organized crime. Again, "perpetual losers" are not created in a vacuum. Nobody forces the girls to do what they do, not in the conventional sense of force. However, when a girl turns to drugs, exotic dancing, and prostitution, there's always a sad story behind it.


Actually, very few are run by the mob.  You will normally only find that in the large cities, and in the highest level of clubs.  For every one that works that way, there are 10 that are simply run as a business to make money.  The ones I worked at here in Alabama were all owned by 1 or 2 people who had no ties to anything like that.

Only in large cities like Miama, New York, and Los Angeles will you have the kind of clients and money flowing through that makes something like that possible.  In the big fancy clubs, the majority of money comes from "private dances".  In most of your smaller clubs, the majority of the money actually comes from the drinks served.  They rarely make more then a normal blue collar bar once the overhead is covered.  A club can only be of interest to a criminal element when it takes in enough money to cover income from less legal sources.

Very educational.
However, we've gone off topic. I guess others don't see what I see in the Duke LaCrosse case. Anyway, doesn't matter, it'll be thrown out. She'll go on to die of an O.D., AIDS, or at the hands of a psychopathic pimp or john. Them Duke boys will go on into corporate America to be the little Eichmanns they were groomed to be from the git-go!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/pimpflash.gif

Very educational.
However, we've gone off topic. I guess others don't see what I see in the Duke LaCrosse case. Anyway, doesn't matter, it'll be thrown out. She'll go on to die of an O.D., AIDS, or at the hands of a psychopathic pimp or john. Them Duke boys will go on into corporate America to be the little Eichmanns they were groomed to be from the git-go!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/pimpflash.gif


I know what you were trying to say, but getting off topic and pinpointing one specific case in order to express outrage and to use that one incident as indicative of the total is much easier than looking at issues that show the unpleasant aspects of society and the causes and treatment of those whom they have deemed undesirable.  It is much easier to walk past the homeless and refer to them as bums than to sit down and find out how they ended up in the situation, much easier to call a woman a whore than to find out how she ended up that way.
Those Duke boys will probably look at the unfairness of their situation without looking beyond at people rotting away in prison because they don't have the resources to fight trumped up charges. 

I know what you were trying to say, but getting off topic and pinpointing one specific case in order to express outrage and to use that one incident as indicative of the total is much easier than looking at issues that show the unpleasant aspects of society and the causes and treatment of those whom they have deemed undesirable.  It is much easier to walk past the homeless and refer to them as bums than to sit down and find out how they ended up in the situation, much easier to call a woman a whore than to find out how she ended up that way.
Those Duke boys will probably look at the unfairness of their situation without looking beyond at people rotting away in prison because they don't have the resources to fight trumped up charges. 

This is a case about race and class. The Right claims they're not racist because they like Clarence Thomas and Condi Rice. They deny the existence of "class" in America altogether. You make another good point about poor people who don't have rich daddies to buy them hotshot lawyers. A high proportion of those who are wrongfully sentences are people of color. This is especially true of "death row." Many men (and they're almost all men) sit on death row for years, sometimes decades, and they are either innocent, or guilty of a crime that does not qualify for a capital sentence. Again, a high proportion of death row inmates are people of color. The only things the Right complains about here is the fact that these guys sit on death row for years while the farcical appeals process runs its course. They should be summarily executed, preferably within 24-hours of the judge issuing the sentence. That's how the Right thinks. I have heard pundits say just that. They also complain of softie-liberal governors pulling a moratorium on capital punishment. Here the Right acts like a four-year-old when you take away his favorite toy!

It is not only capital cases, of course. Our (in)justice system locks up hundreds of innocent poor folks every day on all kinds of bogus charges, usually for "street offenses" because somebody happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Suspect: all those other guys just ran and there was a pistol lying on the pavement and the cops said it was mine, so they cuffed me and hauled me in here.
Public defender: It's not worth the fight, kid. Just cop a plea, you'll get out with time served and probation.
Suspect: But I swear, I live on that block, I was just on my way home, I never even touched that gun!
Public defender: Didn't you hear me? I said forget about it kid!

As I said before, white men have been raping, beating, and killing black women for centuries. White men have subjected black women to sexual harrassment and railroaded them out of jobs, into court, and blackmailed them out of their civil rights every day since the recent "civil rights" era began. Let a poor black woman turn the tables on some rich white boys just once and see the right-wing media hoist the Confederate battle flag again (figuratively speaking). HOW DARE SHE! A druggie, a 'hoe, a...a black girl.
One of the Lacrosse punks alleges he lost a job with J.P. Morgan* because of the accusations alone, but of course that's not J.P. Morgan's decision, it's that ghetto 'hoe's fault! The students, the parents, the lawyers, and the media cannot even conceive of questioning the rectitude of of a paragon of capitalistic virtue such as J.P. Morgan & Co.
And where are the "personal responsibility" finger-wavers? You know the ones such as Bill O'Reilly, who said the plight of the Katrina victims was there own fault because those people failed to exercise "personal responsibility" in there lives. I don't hear them saying, "If you hire prostitutes on dope to entertain you, you take enormous risks. Let this be a lesson to you boys!" Where is the moral outrage from the social reactionaries who believe in a return to university in loco parentis. I don't hear Bill Bennett scolding Duke U. for allowing this sort of debauchery on campus and tolerating the self-defilement of the student body. From social reactionaries I would expect to hear, "They were holding a drunken orgy with prostitutes? The university must expel every one of those boys to send a message that such ungentlemanly behavior wiil not be tolerated! Why, when I was at Duke in 1955 I would have been expelled just for having a girl in my room after ten!"
But noooooo! Preserving the dominant social order is far more vital. She's poor and black, they're rich and white, so it's time to whistle Dixie once again! This is all about the class/race line. If the accuser was a rich white sorority girl, you'd see much more credence awarded the claims. If she were said rich white sorority girl who lied about getting raped by some black hip-hop boyyyz from the other side of the tracks, the Sean Hannitys would be bawling, "You on the Left always take the side of the criminals! How dare you say this honors student from a good family lied before the case has even gone to court! What if it was your daughter..."
For anybody obtuse enough to come back with "But she changed her story five times, she lied...," look, I already addressed that. I am way ahead of you here.

I'm thinking a line from the Paul Newman movie, "Hombre," in which Newman plays John Russell, a white man brought up as an Indian on a reservation.
Doc Favor: One thing you'll come to under about white people, they stick together!
John Russell: They better.

* In this case, the accuser might have done a small social good. The name J.P. Morgan has been associated with more savage exploitation over the past dozen decades than tongue can tell. If you can block just one young man's career there, so much the better!
;D

I hoped to advance the discussion beyond the litigation at hand. If the woman lied, dismiss the case. In brief, what I see is a woman who is herself a bigger victim than those Duke jocks will ever know.
White males perpetuate injustice upon black females 24/7 365. No one cares. Turn the tables just once and it's a national scandal. Those jocks are only victims of their own swinish personalities.
The woman is only one of countless women battered by a hard life, drug abuse, and psychiatric problems who has turned to the sex industry, which will slowly kill her. Nobody--not even the puritanical right-wing--wants to talk about this. Is anybody here capable of seeing who the real victim is in this case, who will suffer the most when the case is all over and don with, and the systemic misogyny that drives our modern sex industry? I'm not here to condemn anybody for watching porn or going to strip joints, I just wish there was a more conscientious attitude and more compassion for people in pain, as this woman obviously is.
::)


the oppression of the so-called victim in this case pales in comparison with the women who work in the sweatshops of Kenya, El Salvador and Viet Nam. Let us talk about women's liberation as opposed the "feminism" bollocks so prevalent in this country.

the oppression of the so-called victim in this case pales in comparison with the women who work in the sweatshops of Kenya, El Salvador and Viet Nam. Let us talk about women's liberation as opposed the "feminism" bollocks so prevalent in this country.


And a lot of those sweatshops are owned by American corporations and run in dirt-poor countries because they can exploit hungry people with no rights better than American workers. If the fascists running this country get their way, American workers will be no better off than workers in El Salvador, Vietnam, or Kenya. I would like to think it can't happen here. I never thought fascists could usurp executive power in America via fraudulent elections, but it has happened. All bets are off.

"Women's liberation," "feminism," American women versus Third World women, that's all red herring.
The "sex industry" and the subculture of pornography injures and humiliates girls and women day in and day out. To a lesser degree, men are injured parties. I did not make it so. I wish it were not so. But it is.  I do not draw my conclusions from listening to the right-wing prigs and the militant feminists. I observe human behavior and draw my own conclusions. I do not refer to "conclusions" pertaining to regulation and prohibition, only conclusions on the phenomenon of sexual exploitation itself.

The pornographic enterprise discussed in the below article is legal. I am not so much concerned with whether or not it should be legal. Nor am I interested in whether anyone should or should not have the "right" to produce it, participate in it, or consume it. Rather I ask:
Is it ethical?
Is it moral?
Is it at all a decent way to treat other human beings?
My answers--no, no, and no.
(reader discretion advised).
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2004-10-14/feature.html

Let us talk about women's liberation as opposed the "feminism" bollocks so prevalent in this country.



As one who remembers the pre-civil rights era, I say bless the feminists, maybe if you knew a bit more about it
and listened less to fools you would agree. Power to the People(right on)

As one who remembers the pre-civil rights era, I say bless the feminists, maybe if you knew a bit more about it
and listened less to fools you would agree. Power to the People(right on)

I agree.

Feminism fell victim to entropy. I am sorry to see it has been reduced to "The Vagina Monologues."  I think it is high time to reinvigorate feminism, perhaps refer to it as "liberation" once again. TVM is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Sexuality is an important issue, but it is not the only issue. So why did I start this topic? Isn't it about sex? No. The media has made it about sex. To me it is more about class, race, and economics.

So-called "feminism" is part of the problem, not the solution. If one were to read Ms. magazine one would get the impresion that:

Muslims are savages;
Africans are savages;
Asians are savages;
ANYONE who is not a blonde haired blue eyed Yankee is a savage;

and that "breaking the glass ceiling" (become the CEO of a company that  brutalizes and exploits women in sweatshops around the world) is the ideal for women in this country.

BTW the hideous Vagina Monologues promotes the rape of little girls (as long as it's a lesbian doing the raping).

Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks...

check out one of my fave websites...

www.nosweatshop.com

http://www.nosweatapparel.com/images/hp_rosie.jpg

So-called "feminism" is part of the problem, not the solution. If one were to read Ms. magazine one would get the impresion that:

Muslims are savages;
Africans are savages;
Asians are savages;
ANYONE who is not a blonde haired blue eyed Yankee is a savage;

and that "breaking the glass ceiling" (become the CEO of a company that  brutalizes and exploits women in sweatshops around the world) is the ideal for women in this country.

BTW the hideous Vagina Monologues promotes the rape of little girls (as long as it's a lesbian doing the raping).

Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks...

check out one of my fave websites...

www.nosweatshop.com

http://www.nosweatapparel.com/images/hp_rosie.jpg



I'm not a big Ms. fan, but I don't agree with your characterization. Ms. does seem to spend a lot of time on issues concerning upper-class white women, but that's who their readership is! However, Ms. publishes articles now and again on labor issues and issues concerning women in developing countries...so I would go as far as you do!

Criticism of the feminist movement as a bourgeois white female power ploy does go way back, however. As far back as the '70s black women started feeling left out. Hence, Alice Walker coined the term "womanist" to differntiate African American women activists.
::)

I have heard the accusation you make about the V-Mons, but it seems to distort the speech in question. I would find it and post it, but why bother?  The Vagina Monomania is awfully tiresome.*  I remember when the V-Mons first came out, they seemed to be a groundbreaking theater piece. The relentless touring year-in-year out has made them as hackneyed as those Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals. Whatever political punch they had at the start has fallen away to self-parody (unwitting self-parody at that). And the Bill O'Reillys on the Right who crusade against the V-Mons are equally silly.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/female.gif

*one African American activist called the V-Mons "Navel-gazing gone south." Can't remember her name off the top of my head.

So-called "feminism" is part of the problem, not the solution. If one were to read Ms. magazine one would get the impresion that:

Muslims are savages;
Africans are savages;
Asians are savages;
ANYONE who is not a blonde haired blue eyed Yankee is a savage;

and that "breaking the glass ceiling" (become the CEO of a company that  brutalizes and exploits women in sweatshops around the world) is the ideal for women in this country.

BTW the hideous Vagina Monologues promotes the rape of little girls (as long as it's a lesbian doing the raping).

Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks...

check out one of my fave websites...

www.nosweatshop.com

http://www.nosweatapparel.com/images/hp_rosie.jpg




You seem to have extremely limited sources from which to base your opinion.  I lived the pre-50's 60's era and am well able to appreciate the advances.  I also know how much better my life is in terms of choices, options, and liberties that I enjoy that my mother, grandmothers, and great grandmothers could not possibly dream about.  People do like to villify feminists as being upper middle and wealthy women, and some of that is true, but in this case the trickle down effect has worked.  Instead of focusing solely on them one must remember Bread and Roses, Mother Jones, my granny the suffragette, and the women who get up in the morning with the decision that they are not going to accept anything less than what is their right.

BTW the hideous Vagina Monologues promotes the rape of little girls (as long as it's a lesbian doing the raping).


Can you prove this?  I've seen the Vagina Monologues (it was on HBO and I was bored) and I don't recall hearing any pro-rape sentiment bandied about.

You seem to have extremely limited sources from which to base your opinion.  I lived the pre-50's 60's era and am well able to appreciate the advances.  I also know how much better my life is in terms of choices, options, and liberties that I enjoy that my mother, grandmothers, and great grandmothers could not possibly dream about.  People do like to villify feminists as being upper middle and wealthy women, and some of that is true, but in this case the trickle down effect has worked.  Instead of focusing solely on them one must remember Bread and Roses, Mother Jones, my granny the suffragette, and the women who get up in the morning with the decision that they are not going to accept anything less than what is their right.


You can more apprpriately attribute the rights you enjoy to the Civil Rights Movement rather than the so-called "feminist" movement.

If it were up to the so-called "feminists" you may very well still  be ridin' on the back of the bus...

...and since you mentioned Mother Jones, you could read a very interesting article by her namesake magazine on a related subject...

http://motherjones.com/news/feature/1993/09/lehrman.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Can you prove this?  I've seen the Vagina Monologues (it was on HBO and I was bored) and I don't recall hearing any pro-rape sentiment bandied about.


all too easy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vagina_Monologues

In "The Little Coochie Snorcher that Could", a lesbian encounter between a very young woman (13 originally, 16 in revised versions) and a mature woman uses the line: "If it was rape, it was good rape." This section has been excised from recent performances. Warnings have been issued by the copyright holder that using the line "It was good rape" could lead to legal action. The scene also mentions the older woman giving alcohol to the underaged girl. Many have criticized this for portraying statutory rape by a lesbian in a positive light

You can more apprpriately attribute the rights you enjoy to the Civil Rights Movement rather than the so-called "feminist" movement.

If it were up to the so-called "feminists" you may very well still  be ridin' on the back of the bus...




No.... you see during the fight for Civil Rights for African American women were still thought of as third class citizens.  You could be discriminated against for being black and for being a woman.  Males of all hues and persuasion had a proprietary attitude towards women, it was, and in many instances still remains, the only common bond they shared.  So along with having to fight for rights as a person the fight had to be for rights as a female person.  Not all feminists were white upper middle class, that is a brush that the limbaughs would like to paint us with, but since I was/am there, and I was/am involved, I can say unequivocally that there were/are just as many working class women of color. 

I read that article in Mother Jones, it was very good.  I did take a course in Womens Studies at UMass in the late 70's, but it didn't resemble the one(s) described here.  As she said the programs are different in each University.  Perhaps in the 13 years since that article was written the courses that had problems turned themselves around.  I also knew guys who would take the Womens Studies courses because they figured they were "tit", literally and figuratively.  Quite a few were surprised that they found it interesting and actually learned something, some figured the women must be "dikes" because they(the women) didn't want to go out with them.    ::)

^ Oh that, that's just dumb.

It's usually collegiate "feminists" who come up with this kind of stuff. It seems to be on the wane, but for years there was an implied mantra, "women good, men bad."

I remember in the early '90s when feminist activists stopped our campus bookstore from carrying Playboy magazine. They said Playboy objectifies women. OK. At the same time the bookstore was hawking a book of Lesbian pornography, uh "erotic photography," depicting certain acts I didn't even think were anotomically possible. Even Hugh Hefner would blush! However, since it wasn't men doing these sex acts to women, it was not exploitative, hence it was legitimate "erotica" and not porn at all. The bookstore also sold Robert Mapplethorpe's books, we all remember those don't we! So if it is woman on woman or man on man, the "feminists" would not object, even if the acts appeared painful and sadistic.
For some reason the authors of the V-Monos celebrated a 26-year-old woman plying a 13-year-old girl (er, woman) with alcohol and performing sex acts on her. No inconsistency there--"women good, men bad." If there was a poem about a 26-year-old man seducing a 13-year-old female, we all know what the reaction would be. This is just muddled thinking on the part of ivory tower intellectuals.

I just wish the primary association of feminism was not with collegiate sexual politics. We are living in a country that has never had a woman president and refused to pass the Equal Rights Amendment. America has become a much more socially reactionary country since the ERA failed in the early '80s. There's a long way to go! There used to be a bumper sticker, a play on  sexist "Virginia Slims" cigarette ads:
"You haven't come a long way, and you're not a baby!"

Danoota has enough perspective to see that women really had come a long way in the 20th century. I liked the bumper sticker because it was going around at a time when women were starting to embrace sexist and misogynistic stereotypes as "empowering."

The Civil Rights Movement benefited women, but women also needed there own voice. In the 1960s, African-American men embraced Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam. Malcolm X and co. showed a path to liberation from the white overclass, but the movement was still based in Islam. The most credit you can give Black Moslems as beneficial to Black women is that the doctrine called for honor and respect for women. HOWEVER...the women had to be totally subservient to the men in their lives. One African-American woman who was an activist at the time told me the message to her was, "Hey, just sit down and let the brothers work this out, it's too important, and we can't have you getting us all distracted."

Gloria Steinem and co. wanted to make "women" equal and unified among one another. Unfortunately, this could never be. A woman from Oakland and a woman from Piedmont have little in common. Rich women from the Ivy Leagues would complain about the corporate "glass ceiling," and my response was, "what do you expect? Corporate America is scummy. Surrpise, surprise!" So, you only make 150K a year and your husband makes 300K per annum. Life sucks, don't it? I'd like to act on your behalf....after there are no women living in dangerous housing projects who can't afford to take their kids to the doctor!
::)