France continues to show a practice of poor taste. The city of St.-Denis named a
street after covicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal.

For those who are unfamiliar with Abu-Jamal, in 1982 Abu-Jamal was sentenced to death
for the murder of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. Since then a multitude of Celebrities
and Organizations have jumped on the Free Mumia bandwagon. Among those: Susan Sarandon,
Tim Robbins, Ed Asner, Mike Farrell, Rage Against the Machine, who give concerts to raise money
for the free Mumia campaign, and Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. These are just a few of the clueless
celebrities catering to the Mumidiots.

Witnesses seen Mumia shoot Officer faulkner. His taxi was found at the scene, he threatened to
shoot responding Officers when they approached him, near the scene. He was found wearing a
shoulder holster, it was empty. A gun, registered to Abu-Jamal was found near the scene, five rounds
were missing. Rifling patterns on the casings at the scene matched the patterns from Jamal's gun.
Jamal's brother would not testify in his defence. With all the evidence against him, these celebrities
still claim his innocence and want him free.

Abu-Jamal has been sitting on death row since 1982, I doubt he will ever be executed.

Why does France have to idolize a convicted murderer. If you're against the death penalty that's fine,
but why ask for this guy's freedom. Why would France look past all the evidence, and give celebrity status to
a man sitting in prison for murder. This is a blatant slap in the face to Daniel faulkner, His Wife and to
law enforcement world wide.

France continues to show a practice of poor taste. The city of St.-Denis named a
street after covicted cop killer Mumia Abu-Jamal.

For those who are unfamiliar with Abu-Jamal, in 1982 Abu-Jamal was sentenced to death
for the murder of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. Since then a multitude of Celebrities
and Organizations have jumped on the Free Mumia bandwagon. Among those: Susan Sarandon,
Tim Robbins, Ed Asner, Mike Farrell, Rage Against the Machine, who give concerts to raise money
for the free Mumia campaign, and Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. These are just a few of the clueless
celebrities catering to the Mumidiots.

Witnesses seen Mumia shoot Officer faulkner. His taxi was found at the scene, he threatened to
shoot responding Officers when they approached him, near the scene. He was found wearing a
shoulder holster, it was empty. A gun, registered to Abu-Jamal was found near the scene, five rounds
were missing. Rifling patterns on the casings at the scene matched the patterns from Jamal's gun.
Jamal's brother would not testify in his defence. With all the evidence against him, these celebrities
still claim his innocence and want him free.

Abu-Jamal has been sitting on death row since 1982, I doubt he will ever be executed.

Why does France have to idolize a convicted murderer. If you're against the death penalty that's fine,
but why ask for this guy's freedom. Why would France look past all the evidence, and give celebrity status to
a man sitting in prison for murder. This is a blatant slap in the face to Daniel faulkner, His Wife and to
law enforcement world wide.



I know for a fact that you're sensible.

Hence, I must defend France.

The country dosen't name streets.

Some Liberals (and those virilant creatures are few and far between in France) have obviously got together on the local council and decided to name a street after this guy. Not France as a whole.

I know for a fact that you're sensible.

Hence, I must defend France.

The country dosen't name streets.

Some Liberals (and those virilant creatures are few and far between in France) have obviously got together on the local council and decided to name a street after this guy. Not France as a whole.


I guess you're right, I shouldn't blame the country as a whole but here is my reasoning.

In Philadelphia a street was recently renamed for Martin Luther King Jr. This street is reconized
by the U.S. Post Office, a government agency. If the street is renamed in France wouldn't
their post office also reconize it, thereby allowing a street to be named for a convicted murderer?
Couldn't the French Government prevent them from officially naming the street?

Governments would never allow streets to be named for other murders, why him?
Would you see Adolf Hitler Way, or Charles Manson Drive, how about Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap HWY?

I just think France, as a whole, could have put a stop to it.

I guess you're right, I shouldn't blame the country as a whole but here is my reasoning.

In Philadelphia a street was recently renamed for Martin Luther King Jr. This street is reconized
by the U.S. Post Office, a government agency. If the street is renamed in France wouldn't
their post office also reconize it, thereby allowing a street to be named for a convicted murderer?
Couldn't the French Government prevent them from officially naming the street?

Governments would never allow streets to be named for other murders, why him?
Would you see Adolf Hitler Way, or Charles Manson Drive, how about Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap HWY?

I just think France, as a whole, could have put a stop to it.


Maybe.

Maybe they didn't see it as a big deal. Hate to say, but I'd never heard of the guy before today.
After all, there is a psychopath lane in Michigan.
In Chicago, there is an intersection where Hooker and Bliss meet.

One would assume there would be an issue with some of these, I am guessing that the Government can't intervene in what local authorities decide to name their roads.

Maybe.

Maybe they didn't see it as a big deal. Hate to say, but I'd never heard of the guy before today.
After all, there is a psychopath lane in Michigan.
In Chicago, there is an intersection where Hooker and Bliss meet.

One would assume there would be an issue with some of these, I am guessing that the Government can't intervene in what local authorities decide to name their roads.



I am glad you never heard of him. That means his notoriety is waning. With all the celebrities
chanting "Free Mumia", I just assumed everyone knew who he was.

We all know better than to assume.

edit to add: Is the intersection Hooker and Bliss aptly named?

I know for a fact that you're sensible.

Hence, I must defend France.

The country dosen't name streets.

Some Liberals (and those virilant creatures are few and far between in France) have obviously got together on the local council and decided to name a street after this guy. Not France as a whole.


Note that Mumia Abdul-Jabaar's real name is Wesley Cook but he decided to change it to the more stylish name to show his solidarity.  The last I heard (couple of years ago) was that Mumia Jamal-Warner's sentence was vacated and Pennsylvania had to resentence him.  Did he in fact get resentenced to the death penalty? ???

By the way, Wesley Cook was convicted in, and is slowly rotting in, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania which recognizes the town of Intercourse, PA.   ;D

how about Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap HWY?



I would imagine that there are any number of streets and buildings named after General Giap in Viet Nam.

Witnesses seen Mumia shoot Officer faulkner. His taxi was found at the scene, he threatened to
shoot responding Officers when they approached him, near the scene. He was found wearing a
shoulder holster, it was empty. A gun, registered to Abu-Jamal was found near the scene, five rounds
were missing. Rifling patterns on the casings at the scene matched the patterns from Jamal's gun.
Jamal's brother would not testify in his defence. With all the evidence against him, these celebrities
still claim his innocence and want him free.
with all this evidence against him why do so many people take up his cause? there must be some sort of case that he's innocent. i'm curious what it is.

as a virulent liberal i must say the mumia cause always struck me as a bit of a loser.

I wonder what the students at Nathan Beford Forrest High School think about this.  Their school is named
after the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, and no one has considered it prudent in 2006 to think that maybe
a name change is in order. 
What places outside of the country want to name their streets is their affair, we have enough in this country
to keep us occupied.

our football team in washington is named after a racial slur, for instance.

with all this evidence against him why do so many people take up his cause? there must be some sort of case that he's innocent. i'm curious what it is.

as a virulent liberal i must say the mumia cause always struck me as a bit of a loser.


You always have people who will champion murders, thieves, and scumbags simply because it is "anti-establishment".  To see that, simply look at the case of Oscar Collazo and Griselio Torresola.

Of course, the far-right nutcases also have their thugs who they see as "freedom fighters".  Ruby Ridge and Waco were both incidents where criminals decided to duke it out with law enforcement, and paid the price for it.  Myself, all I see is thugs with delusions of martyrdom.

You can also argue that America names schools after slave owners (e.g. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington).

where i live in northern virginia there's a bunch of streets named after southern generals. real bunch of heroes, those guys. ::)

I wonder what the students at Nathan Beford Forrest High School think about this.  Their school is named
after the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, and no one has considered it prudent in 2006 to think that maybe
a name change is in order. 
What places outside of the country want to name their streets is their affair, we have enough in this country
to keep us occupied.




Yes, and the name of our high schools isn't one of them. 

You can also argue that America names schools after slave owners (e.g. Thomas Jefferson, George Washington).


::) Laughable.

Why do people always use the term "cop killer" as if killing a cop is worse than taking the life of any other human being? ???

[quote author=

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2000/02/mumia.html

I generally agree with the above article by Marc Cooper. I live in the "five college area" of the Pioneer Valley, a left-liberal area even by the standards of Massachusetts, so I have seen Mumia-madness up close. A portion of the activist community around here is stuck on a binary thought track: Black good, White bad. Women good, Men bad.

I have also seen FOX News exploit Office Faulkner's widow as part of that media outlet's constant racist subtext.

The international support for Mumia Abu-Jamal seems to be more anti-death penalty than about proclaiming Mumia's innocence. The civilized world abominates capital punishment. The United States has a sick fetish for it.

As I see it, both Mumia Abu-Jamal and Officer Faulker were victims of circumstance. In 1981, Philadelphia was war zone and the police were an army of occupation. A populus living in poverty, squalor, and despair often turns violent. The cops came around every day assaulting and killing young black men. The citizens of color assumed all police were racist, and the police assumed every black guy on the street was up to no good. That is what happens when a society's economic policies create a permanent racial underclass. It is a recipe for violence. Officer Daniel Faulkner and Mumia Abu-Jamal are both war casualties, one dead and one imprisoned.

I don't say Mumia is "innocent." I do say in a theater of war, as existed between the cops and the citizens of ghettoized Philadelphia, the value of human life is diminished. They kill us, we kill them. Outrage for or against either Faulkner or Mumia obscures this root cause of Faulkner's homicide and Mumia's imprisonment.

Do yourself a favor, don't hitch your wagon to either Susan Sarandon or Michelle Malkin on the issue of some Parisians naming a street for Mumia.

Good question. I suspect it's the same impulse that leads so many to assume that all soldiers are wonderful, selfless people despite so much evidence to the contrary.

^ That's what I'm on about. Rightwing legislators have tried to encode harsher penalties for killing a police officer than for killing anybody else. The extant thinking seems to be that killing a lawman makes the killer a much bigger threat to law and order. Then again, Ice-T released the rap number "Cop Killer" in 1991. Rightwingers viewed it as prescription, Lefties viewed it as commentary.
http://it.uwp.edu/gangsters/ice-t.cop.killer.html
It depends on your point of view. If you see the police as the protectors of life and property, "cop killer" is a menacing epithet. If you see the cops as the army of occupation who are likely to beat and kill you, perhaps "cop killer" becomes a badge of honor.

Yes, and the name of our high schools isn't one of them. 


The people whom we, as a people, show respect is.

Killing a cop is seen as a crime not only against the cop, but the entire justice system, thus the harsher punishment.

In addition, killing a cop is a supremely stupid act.  The victim has hundreds of friends who carry weapons and who have all the time in the world to hunt down the perp.  Mumia Paula-Abdul Wesley Cook found this out for himself the hard way.

with all this evidence against him why do so many people take up his cause? there must be some sort of case that he's innocent. i'm curious what it is.

as a virulent liberal i must say the mumia cause always struck me as a bit of a loser.


Mumia was a radio host and activist, he was also a member of the Black Panther Organization.
None of these had anything to do with the case but Mumia used his activist ties after the trial
to show the trial was biased. Mumia fired his lawyers and tried to get John Africa, leader of
the radical group MOVE and a non-lawyer to represent him. This was not allowed by the court.
The original jury pool consisted of 5 black and 7 white jurors. The court dismissed one black
juror which made it 4 black and 8 white. Then Mumia had 2 black jurors removed which made
the pool for the trial. 2 black and 10 white. In the years after the trial Mumia has put a racial
spin on his conviction and stated he received an unfair trial. The celebrities bought
into this and jumped on the band wagon.

Mumia's new story is that rogue cops and the mafia conspired to have
Daniel Faulkner killed. This was the supposed confession of a convict on
his death bed.

If people are against the death penalty, that's fine . Protest to have the
death sentence removed. For some reason these idiots want his freedom.
If that's the case, why don't we just let all the criminals, who feel they
received an unfair trial, out of jail?

Mumia was a radio host and activist, he was also a member of the Black Panther Organization.
None of these had anything to do with the case but Mumia used his activist ties after the trial
to show the trial was biased. Mumia fired his lawyers and tried to get John Africa, leader of
the radical group MOVE and a non-lawyer to represent him. This was not allowed by the court.
The original jury pool consisted of 5 black and 7 white jurors. The court dismissed one black
juror which made it 4 black and 8 white. Then Mumia had 2 black jurors removed which made
the pool for the trial. 2 black and 10 white. In the years after the trial Mumia has put a racial
spin on his conviction and stated he received an unfair trial. The celebrities bought
into this and jumped on the band wagon.

Mumia's new story is that rogue cops and the mafia conspired to have
Daniel Faulkner killed. This was the supposed confession of a convict on
his death bed.

If people are against the death penalty, that's fine . Protest to have the
death sentence removed. For some reason these idiots want his freedom.
If that's the case, why don't we just let all the criminals, who feel they
received an unfair trial, out of jail?


Excellent post loki.

Never heard about the racial makeup of the jury before.

Sounds therefore like 2 African Americans were convinced of his guilt since it takes 12 votes to convict.

Excellent post loki.

Never heard about the racial makeup of the jury before.

Sounds therefore like 2 African Americans were convinced of his guilt since it takes 12 votes to convict.


I did hear that African Americans on juries were more likely to convict African Americans for crimes then Causcasian juries were to convict caucasians.  Just an aside, but I found it interesting.

White guilt?^

^ Not to stray too far off-topic, but who do you suppose is in for a stiffer sentence: Rep. William Jefferson (Black politician who took $100 grand bribe) or Ken "Kenny Boy" Lay (former CEO of Enron who defrauded thousands of employees and shareholders and played ducks and drakes with the California power grid)?
???

^place your bets.

i know where the smart money is. i actually think ken lay will die a happy man while his case is on endless appeal without spending a day in jail. PM me if you wanna put twenty bucks on it. i need some cash.

^place your bets.

i know where the smart money is. i actually think ken lay will die a happy man while his case is on endless appeal without spending a day in jail. PM me if you wanna put twenty bucks on it. i need some cash.

I wouldn't take that bet even if I was a gambling man!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/brushteeth.gif


I wonder what the students at Nathan Beford Forrest High School think about this. 

I thought, "Please tell me she's joking!," but apparently there is a Nathan Bedford Forrest High School in Jacksonville, Florida!
http://www.nbfhs.com/
Check out that motto "Rebel Yell!" I wonder what their mascot is!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_pale.gif

No howling Philippics about this one on FOX News, but if a new school opened on the other side of Jacksonville called "Huey Newton High School"...
::)

I thought, "Please tell me she's joking!," but apparently there is a Nathan Bedford Forrest High School in Jacksonville, Florida!

Check out that motto "Rebel Yell!" I wonder what their mascot is!



I think overseer, whip in hand, would be apropos

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/freedom/gfx/Page18b.gif

A high school here in my town of Tyler, Texas is called Robert E. Lee and their football team is called the Red Raiders.

[quote author=

Congressman Mike Fitzpatrick-R, Introduced a congressional resolution codemning
the naming of the street, Rue Mumia Abu-Jamal.

Congresswoman Allyson Schwartz-D, sent a letter to Didier Paillard, Mayor of Saint-Denis
urging him to rename the street.

Do they relly think this will do anything? Politicians are trying to put pressure on the French
Government to step in and force Saint-Denis to change the name. The same government
that was reluctant to give up Ira Einhorn, another murderer made a hero by French radicals.

The only thing that's going to stop this trend, is for people and governments to stop
naming streets and buildings for people who got their notoriety by controversial means.
The naming of streets and buildings should be reserved for people who deserve the honor,
for doing things to help humanity and make life better for future generations. How was life
made better by killers, klan members, Black Panther Members, or other radicals?

Again, if America and her citizens would get with the civilized world and abolish the death penalty, it would not be so tempting for Parisians to see a guy like Mumia as martyr!

First American politicians say they don't care what France think, then they stick their noses in Parisian street-naming. Gimme a break!

Again, if America and her citizens would get with the civilized world and abolish the death penalty, it would not be so tempting for Parisians to see a guy like Mumia as martyr!

First American politicians say they don't care what France think, then they stick their noses in Parisian street-naming. Gimme a break!


Who cares if the French named a street after Wesley Cook, a.k.a. Mumia Abdul-Jabaar.

They ought to take him off of death row and cast him down with the general population of the prison, like they did with Richard Speck and Jeffrey Dahmer.  Justice has its own way of working things out.

i dunno, a copkiller might actually be well-liked in a high-security prison, at least as compared to a killer of young boys.

i dunno, a copkiller might actually be well-liked in a high-security prison, at least as compared to a killer of young boys.

I think Clinton should have pardoned Mumia as an F.U. to the the vast white boy right-wing conspiracy!

I think Clinton should have pardoned Mumia as an F.U. to the the vast white boy right-wing conspiracy!


Clinton never woulda pardoned Wesley Cook, a.k.a. Mumia Paula-Abdul.  Bill's from Arkansas, never gonna happen.

Clinton only pardoned guys like Marc Rich.

Clinton never woulda pardoned Wesley Cook, a.k.a. Mumia Paula-Abdul.  Bill's from Arkansas, never gonna happen.

Clinton only pardoned guys like Marc Rich.

Actually, I wanted Clinton to pardon Leonard Pelletier, but nooooo! Rich Marc Rich it was.
Thanks a lot, Bill!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/thefinger.gif

Actually, he could have pardoned them both, but I think he didn't pardon Pelletier because "the law-and-order angry white guys might not like me any more!" It's like Hillary flapping her gums about her "faith," as if she's ever going to get Evangelicals to vote for her! The Clintons are smart, just not smart enough to figure out who their friends are!
::)

Actually, I wanted Clinton to pardon Leonard Pelletier, but nooooo! Rich Marc Rich it was.
Thanks a lot, Bill!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/thefinger.gif

Actually, he could have pardoned them both, but I think he didn't pardon Pelletier because "the law-and-order angry white guys might not like me any more!" It's like Hillary flapping her gums about her "faith," as if she's ever going to get Evangelicals to vote for her! The Clintons are smart, just not smart enough to figure out who their friends are!
::)


While I am by no means a Clinton fan, I have to say that he was a damned fine politician.  He knew exactly how to further himself (well, forget about the Monica blunder) and would screw over any one of his constituencies to win over a "bigger" constituency.

Clinton is the guy who catered to gays then implemented "Don't ask, don't tell", took millions of campaign dollars from Unions and signed NAFTA and refused to implement steel tariffs.  He even kicked Hillary to the curb when polls showed that his Universal healthcare initiative would cost him a second term in office.

Now THAT'S a politician.  Gotta give him full credit.


As an aside... Clinton could not have pardoned Wesley Cook, a.k.a. Mumia Abdul-Jabaar, even if he wanted to.  Wesley was convicted under the lawws of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania thus the POTUS has no power.

Again, if America and her citizens would get with the civilized world and abolish the death penalty, it would not be so tempting for Parisians to see a guy like Mumia as martyr!

First American politicians say they don't care what France think, then they stick their noses in Parisian street-naming. Gimme a break!



While I agree that sometimes the death penalty is used erroneously and that not all crimes warrant a sentence of death.......some do.  I feel that only the most extreme and egregious of crimes deserve death.

While I agree that sometimes the death penalty is used erroneously and that not all crimes warrant a sentence of death.......some do.  I feel that only the most extreme and egregious of crimes deserve death.
i agree that some people commit crimes that warrant death, but i also think the state has demonstrated over and over again that it's not competent to wield the power of life and death over its citizens.

i agree that some people commit crimes that warrant death, but i also think the state has demonstrated over and over again that it's not competent to wield the power of life and death over its citizens.


If this country could get its homicide rates down to the levels of civilized nations, perhaps capital punishment would not be so appealing to so many Americans!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/BangHead.gif

I wonder what the students at Nathan Beford Forrest High School think about this.  Their school is named
after the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, and no one has considered it prudent in 2006 to think that maybe
a name change is in order. 


The Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest was renowned for his abilities as a military leader and strategist. And he eventually ended up denouncing the KKK and condemning their violent methods, so that might make it less objectionable to see him venerated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest

The Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest was renowned for his abilities as a military leader and strategist. And he eventually ended up denouncing the KKK and condemning their violent methods, so that might make it less objectionable to see him venerated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest


Oh, so that's what the school motto "Rebel Yell" refers to!

Look, Barry Goldwater denounced Newt Gingrich, good for him. Doesn't follow that I did Barry Goldwater!
::)

If this country could get its homicide rates down to the levels of civilized nations, perhaps capital punishment would not be so appealing to so many Americans!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/BangHead.gif



I wasn't aware I was currently living in an uncivilized nation.

I wasn't aware I was currently living in an uncivilized nation.
well, depends who you are.

well, depends who you are.



Who you are, where you are, what you do.

I wasn't aware I was currently living in an uncivilized nation.

In some ways we are, in some ways we're not. We cannot take "civilization" for granted. Right now I see our civilization in devolution.

The unfortunate situation we have in this Country, is that it's citizens don't
fear the system. Todays youth sees the system as a way to get "Street Cred."
there is no fear of doing time because of the revolving door prison system.
Now I consider myself fairly liberal, but I have to draw the line when groups
like the ACLU make sure prisoners and the accused have more rights
than the victims of the crimes they commit. If you make it so people fear
the system maybe there will be no need for the death penalty.

The unfortunate situation we have in this Country, is that it's citizens don't
fear the system. Todays youth sees the system as a way to get "Street Cred."
there is no fear of doing time because of the revolving door prison system.
Now I consider myself fairly liberal, but I have to draw the line when groups
like the ACLU make sure prisoners and the accused have more rights
than the victims of the crimes they commit. If you make it so people fear
the system maybe there will be no need for the death penalty.


"People should not fear their government, their government should fear the people"

i actually think it's more a matter of folks in the inner city figuring they'll never live to the age of 25, and people who figure the government will lock them up whether they do something or not. something like one-third of the blacks in the poor parts of any given city end up in jail at some point in their lives, and i honestly scoff at the capacity of the government to scare anyone who lives more than a few weeks in a neighborhood like cabrini green, or for that matter, southwest baltimore.

we all put our heads together and created a society that's among the most economically inequitable in human history, and if you think it'll help to send more and more poor people to the gas chamber -- well, that's more or less what they thought in previous economically inequitable societies too, and it only works for so long.

"People should not fear their government, their government should fear the people"

i actually think it's more a matter of folks in the inner city figuring they'll never live to the age of 25, and people who figure the government will lock them up whether they do something or not. something like one-third of the blacks in the poor parts of any given city end up in jail at some point in their lives, and i honestly scoff at the capacity of the government to scare anyone who lives more than a few weeks in a neighborhood like cabrini green, or for that matter, southwest baltimore.

we all put our heads together and created a society that's among the most economically inequitable in human history, and if you think it'll help to send more and more poor people to the gas chamber -- well, that's more or less what they thought in previous economically inequitable societies too, and it only works for so long.



It's not the government people should fear, it's the judicial system I speak of. There were
poor sections of cities for as long as there have been cities. Why are inner cities more violent
now than at any time prior. If you don't fear jail or doing time, you are more apt to use criminal
behavior to get what you want. I grew up in Camden, NJ and I work in North Philadelphia so
I see first hand what happens in poor neighborhoods. I am still in firm belief that being poor
doesn't give you the right to act uncivilized.

It's not the government people should fear, it's the judicial system I speak of. There were
poor sections of cities for as long as there have been cities. Why are inner cities more violent
now than at any time prior. If you don't fear jail or doing time, you are more apt to use criminal
behavior to get what you want. I grew up in Camden, NJ and I work in North Philadelphia so
I see first hand what happens in poor neighborhoods. I am still in firm belief that being poor
doesn't give you the right to act uncivilized.
if living in a poor neighborhood is worse than living in jail, or if it's a completely hopeless way of life, then all bets are off. that's my point.

inner cities are more violent now than at any time prior because they're more choked off and starved than any time prior. this country's verging on being a third world economy, with the ultra rich 1/2 of 1 percent, about 60 percent of the country scratching to stay in the middle class, and the bottom 40 percent trying to live in neighborhoods that are like indian shantytowns. unfortunately america's come a long way down since reagan.

if living in a poor neighborhood is worse than living in jail, or if it's a completely hopeless way of life, then all bets are off. that's my point.

inner cities are more violent now than at any time prior because they're more choked off and starved than any time prior. this country's verging on being a third world economy, with the ultra rich 1/2 of 1 percent, about 60 percent of the country scratching to stay in the middle class, and the bottom 40 percent trying to live in neighborhoods that are like indian shantytowns. unfortunately america's come a long way down since reagan.

I agree with you, Tia. It sounds like Mr. Loki's been watching too much Bill O'Reilly or something. Reagan's inauguration in 1981 was a declaration of war upon the middle class. We did not know it at the time, but Reagan's backers certainly knew it. The government has been prosecuting that war ever since.
The middle class developed from government supervising big business and labor unions having a say. The idea that corporations left to their own devices will create prosperity for all is bogus. Whoever has not yet figured that out is still chugging Reagan Kool-Aid.
I don't know if Mr. Loki has ever read Jakob Riis, "How The Other Half Lives," but that book is a good document on what happens when big business gets to run things free of government interference. The inner cities of New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago were the kind of gangster-controlled, disease ridden, tenement slums the likes of which we have yet to see again. We're getting there, however. They didn't have "gangster rap" in 1907, but they did have innumerable street urchins with nothing to lose.

http://www.cis.yale.edu/amstud/inforev/riis/title.html

Somehow, I am not getting my point across. I've gone from saying we need stiffer sentences,
harsher penalties, not necessarily the death penalty, to blaming the poor for all that is wrong.

First, I hate Bill O'Reilly

Second, I was a victim of Reaganomics. I also disagree with the naming of an Aircraft carrier and
and an Airport in his honor. He did nothing to help humanity.

Third, I have not read the book but believe me, I've added it to my reading list

Fourth, I don't blame music for the behavior of any one, from gangsta rap to death metal
music is innocent, people are not.

Please don't let my point get lost. As Tia has stated living in a poor neighborhood is worse than
living in jail. This is what has to change.

I don't have an answer and unfortunately I am a better orator than a corresponder. My point is
being lost in written words.

Somehow, I am not getting my point across. I've gone from saying we need stiffer sentences,
harsher penalties, not necessarily the death penalty, to blaming the poor for all that is wrong.

First, I hate Bill O'Reilly

Second, I was a victim of Reaganomics. I also disagree with the naming of an Aircraft carrier and
and an Airport in his honor. He did nothing to help humanity.

Third, I have not read the book but believe me, I've added it to my reading list

Fourth, I don't blame music for the behavior of any one, from gangsta rap to death metal
music is innocent, people are not.

Please don't let my point get lost. As Tia has stated living in a poor neighborhood is worse than
living in jail. This is what has to change.

I don't have an answer and unfortunately I am a better orator than a corresponder. My point is
being lost in written words.


Reaganolics was a response to the stagflation (runaway inflation coupled with job losses and stagnant economy) that flourished under the Carter administration.  You never hear what the alternative to Carter Economics or Reaganomics would be.

Reaganolics was a response to the stagflation (runaway inflation coupled with job losses and stagnant economy) that flourished under the Carter administration.  You never hear what the alternative to Carter Economics or Reaganomics would be.

That's right, keep basking in the myth, LB! You never hear because you never listen.

http://www.mises.org/story/1544
http://www.counterpunch.org/pollin02222006.html

That's right, keep basking in the myth, LB! You never hear because you never listen.

http://www.mises.org/story/1544
http://www.counterpunch.org/pollin02222006.html


Uh... I was there.  Inflation was in double-digits, the value of people's life savings was evaporating.

And with Carter's weak-kneed leadership, the US of A was seen as a paper tiger.  The Soviet Union never woulda fell on Carter's watch.  Mind you I think that Jimmy Carter is a fine man, but a strong president he was not.

Reagan put it best in the '84 election when he asked "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?".  The American people by a majority (49 states) agreed and reelected him.  As I recall, the only state that Mondale won was his home state, although I could be wrong on that.

I still contend that when George Bush I was elected in 1988, it was really people subconsciously voting for Reagan again, although that is not exactly what they got.

Uh... I was there.  Inflation was in double-digits, the value of people's life savings was evaporating.

And with Carter's weak-kneed leadership, the US of A was seen as a paper tiger.  The Soviet Union never woulda fell on Carter's watch.  Mind you I think that Jimmy Carter is a fine man, but a strong president he was not.

Reagan put it best in the '84 election when he asked "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?".  The American people by a majority (49 states) agreed and reelected him.  As I recall, the only state that Mondale won was his home state, although I could be wrong on that.

I still contend that when George Bush I was elected in 1988, it was really people subconsciously voting for Reagan again, although that is not exactly what they got.

Yeah, I remember. So, the answer to double-digit inflation was what? To shift tax burden from the rich to the middle class, double the national debt in less than four years, and turn America from the biggest lender nation to the biggest debtor nation in the world?  It turns out the fatcats DID NOT invest in the American economy as the supply-siders promised, they divested. The blowhards who bellyached about "tax-and-spend liberals" did not show any disdain for "borrow-and-spend supply-siders." The Soviet Union was a dying leviathan by the 1970s. Their clock was running out. Reagan tripled the defense budget to grease the palms of weapons contractors, then had the gall to to credit this raid on the treasury for the inevitable collapse of the Soviet bloc. Indeed, it was like a rooster taking credit for the dawn. Furthermore, the atomic threat from Russian never really went away.
As Reagan and his gang of criminals, a preview of the Dubya administration, committed ballz-out treason in Iran-Contra, Americans basked in the delusion that Reagan restored our strength and honor. Nonsense. What the Reaganistas did was turn this country into a debt-laden, deindustrialized, equality-diminished hollow shell--it was a guilded shell, so Americans didn't notice for all the shine.  Now that the glitter is gone, Americans are blaming Bush...and Dubya has done incalculable harm to this country. However, the policies Bush follows are essentially the proven failure of Reaganomics. Americans got suckered, hoodwinked, bamboozled, and hornswoggled!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/men_ani.gif

Yeah, I remember. So, the answer to double-digit inflation was what? To shift tax burden from the rich to the middle class, double the national debt in less than four years, and turn America from the biggest lender nation to the biggest debtor nation in the world?  It turns out the fatcats DID NOT invest in the American economy as the supply-siders promised, they divested. The blowhards who bellyached about "tax-and-spend liberals" did not show any disdain for "borrow-and-spend supply-siders." The Soviet Union was a dying leviathan by the 1970s. Their clock was running out. Reagan tripled the defense budget to grease the palms of weapons contractors, then had the gall to to credit this raid on the treasury for the inevitable collapse of the Soviet bloc. Indeed, it was like a rooster taking credit for the dawn. Furthermore, the atomic threat from Russian never really went away.
As Reagan and his gang of criminals, a preview of the Dubya administration, committed ballz-out treason in Iran-Contra, Americans basked in the delusion that Reagan restored our strength and honor. Nonsense. What the Reaganistas did was turn this country into a debt-laden, deindustrialized, equality-diminished hollow shell--it was a guilded shell, so Americans didn't notice for all the shine.  Now that the glitter is gone, Americans are blaming Bush...and Dubya has done incalculable harm to this country. However, the policies Bush follows are essentially the proven failure of Reaganomics. Americans got suckered, hoodwinked, bamboozled, and hornswoggled!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/men_ani.gif


Actally the fat cats DID invest in the United States.

Where do you think all those Japanese auto assembly plants and auto supplier plants came from in the 1980's and early 1990's? And all the money that the Japanese pumped in to other American assets?  Much of this was in direct relationship to the "strong dollar" mantra of the Reagan administration, executed by the Fed.  The Strong Dollar approach immediately killed the rampant inflation, and the balance (imbalance perhaps) of trade effect resulted in foreign investment in American assets.

In the late 70's, my father's pension was losing something like 12% per year buying power due to inflation.  I can assure you that Dad was no fat cat and was glad as all-get-out to have inflation trampled.

You'll see a similar impact soon with more Chinese companies investing in American assets because they have all those $$$ that they have to spend somewhere... in the USA.

By the way, when I "divest" an asset, somebody else "acquires" it.  So if the fatcats were divesting, somebody sure as heck was INvesting.  The fat cats did not go out and have a bonfire.

Actally the fat cats DID invest in the United States.

Where do you think all those Japanese auto assembly plants and auto supplier plants came from in the 1980's and early 1990's? And all the money that the Japanese pumped in to other American assets?  Much of this was in direct relationship to the "strong dollar" mantra of the Reagan administration, executed by the Fed.  The Strong Dollar approach immediately killed the rampant inflation, and the balance (imbalance perhaps) of trade effect resulted in foreign investment in American assets.

In the late 70's, my father's pension was losing something like 12% per year buying power due to inflation.  I can assure you that Dad was no fat cat and was glad as all-get-out to have inflation trampled.

You'll see a similar impact soon with more Chinese companies investing in American assets because they have all those $$$ that they have to spend somewhere... in the USA.

By the way, when I "divest" an asset, somebody else "acquires" it.  So if the fatcats were divesting, somebody sure as heck was INvesting.  The fat cats did not go out and have a bonfire.

Alright, alright, have it your way, Reaganomics was a great thing for the American worker!
::)

Reagan put it best in the '84 election when he asked "Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?". 

The first party - and maybe, by party, I mean "third party", to make this their campaign slogan, wins the Presidency in 2008.

I've seen the slogan "No more Clintons.  No more Bushes." posted on message boards, and even seen it once on a bumper sticker. 

I'd bet several thousand dollars that a third party could easily meet the 5% threshold required for federal funding of future  campaigns on the slogan "No more Republicans.  No more Democrats."  (Bet is only valid for the 2006 congressional races and the 2008 presidential campaign)

Reaganolics was a response to the stagflation (runaway inflation coupled with job losses and stagnant economy) that flourished under the Carter administration.  You never hear what the alternative to Carter Economics or Reaganomics would be.
that was vietnam did that. it trashed the economy. i get the feeling this iraq outing might wind up doing something similar.

that was vietnam did that. it trashed the economy. i get the feeling this iraq outing might wind up doing something similar.

Well, you know, the late John Kenneth Galbraith sent a letter to LBJ saying, "All official crap aside, we are going to lose the Vietnam war." Galbraith and Eisenhower had something in common: the both believed in slashing defense budgets and both warned of the dangers of the military-industrial complex. Never mind Galbraith, if we were not going to listen to Ike, we weren't going to listen anybody! The only reason the Right trashed Carter instead is they refused to admit we lost Vietnam! Oh, that's not the only reason. They also wanted their stooge, Ronald Reagan, to become President. They even committed treason in 1980 by brokering a deal with the Iranians to keep Americans held hostage until after the election!