Mushroom and Rice_Cube, please explain how it is viable for the standard of living in this country to stay afloat when we are shipping all of our manufacturing base overseas?

How the HELL can you run a succesful economy and keep the standard of living up when you try to base things on everyone doing everybody else's freakin' laundry?  Doesn't an economy actually need to PRODUCE things?

People are more than willing to slap an American flag sticker on their car and think they are patriotic and have "pride" in our nation.  If these people had true pride in their country wouldn't they be up in arms about diminishing worker's rights, lack of health care coverage, the exporting of our manufacturing base, and the general rape of the middle class in this country?  A strong middle class is part of what made this country great.  And so too are the liberties promised by the United States Constitution.  Yet it seems the majority of people in this country don't truely care that.  They are so paranoid of the "turrists" that it seems they're willing to throw it away.

If you truely care about your country and have pride in it, you want to protect what makes it great, and improve it further whenever possible.  "Patriotism" when you feel otherwise is nothing more than self-serving garbage.

We need tax reform, better worker's rights, a moratorium on immigration, universal healthcare, and most importantly we need leadership who will stop selling the American middle class up the river so American corporations can make money off of Third World labor.  BOTH sides have been guilty of this crap.  It was CLINTON who signed NAFTA, which imo has done more to undermine the middle class than any other thing.  That one act has done more to deteriorate our standard of living than anthing else.

We can demand better, or we can sit back and allow the middle class to die, allow the New Deal to die, let the U.S. become a balkanized banana republic serving it's corporate masters who reek huge profits while the "Average Joe" sinks further into debt and servitude, and allow the freakin' CHINESE to become our new masters(what the hell would Barry Goldwater say?).

Yes this is a rant but I needed to get it out.

And I'm sure Mushroom and Rice_Cube will tell me how wrong I am- ironically from their ivory tower. My my, how the tables have turned. :D 

I fear the same is sort of happening over here, to a lesser extent...

I guess maybe it's cos people only care about themselves/what happens in their immediate lives? I agree, something needs to be done, people need to rise up...

couldn't say it better than molly.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051606R.shtml

i think the problem with right wing ideology is that conservatism is founded on baseless faith. it goes like this.

1. come up with a conviction.
2. believe in it no matter what the evidence.
3. the more evidence that comes up to contradict it, the more firm your belief in it should be. view this evidence as a "test of your faith," the bearers of the evidence as agents sent to trick you, or fifth columnists, or what have you.

notice how so many religious fundamentalists are right wing? that's this paradigm at work. the more scientific evidence rolls in to the contrary, the more they insist that god built the universe in seven days six thousand years ago. ditto the war in iraq. the more prespammersite it becomes, the more they insist we have to "stay the course" and that there's "light at the end of the tunnel." and the same with the fantasy that the free market will naturally bring the world into balance. the more infrastructure in this country collapses, the more they insist that further deregulation is the answer, that somewhere down the road to utterly unfettered markets, everything will magically turn around.

couldn't say it better than molly.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051606R.shtml

i think the problem with right wing ideology is that conservatism is founded on baseless faith. it goes like this.

1. come up with a conviction.
2. believe in it no matter what the evidence.
3. the more evidence that comes up to contradict it, the more firm your belief in it should be. view this evidence as a "test of your faith," the bearers of the evidence as agents sent to trick you, or fifth columnists, or what have you.

notice how so many religious fundamentalists are right wing? that's this paradigm at work. the more scientific evidence rolls in to the contrary, the more they insist that god built the universe in seven days six thousand years ago. ditto the war in iraq. the more prespammersite it becomes, the more they insist we have to "stay the course" and that there's "light at the end of the tunnel." and the same with the fantasy that the free market will naturally bring the world into balance. the more infrastructure in this country collapses, the more they insist that further deregulation is the answer, that somewhere down the road to utterly unfettered markets, everything will magically turn around.



Well, I've started coming to the conclusion the answer lies somewhere in between right-wing and left-wing. 

A LOT of the wage stagnation in blue collar fields has came about as a result of immigration.  The bosses use immigrants as a safety valve of cheap labor to keep wages down. So I've had a change of heart. I am now anti-immigration.  I think we should halt all further immigration legal or not.  Sure, immigrants built this country but you know what?  We are built now and we need to take care of our own problems.  I say fortify BOTH borders as well.

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It dosen't however undermine the Middle Classes, the middle classes in America today are your Lawyers, your financial planners, your basic office workers. These positions aren't going anywhere. It's the lower classes that are hurt.
I'm obviously not going to get a job turning a wrench on some piece of machinery, however, the guy on the other side of the tracks is, now.. all of a sudden that job is nowhere to be found.


Actually, I would place the first two in "Upper Class".

And no matter what, there will always be "Lower Class" citizens in this country.  Poverty has been a problem for over 2,000 years, and it will never go away.  Some people simply have bad luck, a lack of will, a lack of desire, or a mental or physical condition that prevents them from doing everything they can.  That is a fact of life.  Sometimes you are the Wolf, and sometimes you are the rabbit.

In the last century, the idea of "class" has become seriously skewed.  Middle Class used to be the skilled artaisans and shop owners who provided goods and services.  Printers, shopkeepers, pharmacists, Civil Servants, and the like.  Lower Class was those who worked for a living, stable boys, farm hands, teamsters, steveadors, and the like.

But in the prosperity of the 20th century, even those jobs became part of the "middle class".  If you told somebody in the 18th century that a steveadore was part of the middle class, you would have been laughed at.

Now, we have people who want to shift "middle class" even lower.  They think entry level retail jobs like Walmart should entitle you to be in the "Middle Class".  Myself, I see nothing but a shrinking of peoples expectations.

I have worked most of my life to get somwhere better.  I moved up in jobs, going to one with better pay or more responsibility.  Today, we have people working what are essentially entry level jobs for 20 years.  Is it any wonder that they never get ahead?

However, that is not the fault of Walmart.  And as you said, these types of jobs are not going anywhere.

We may export the telephone support to a place like India, but we are not going to send a patient there when he needs surgery.  Mexico may provide cheap labor, but we are not going to import much food from there.  And while we import Middle Eastern Oil, where do they go for their airplanes and cars?

You say the lower classes get hurt.  I say they have always been hurting, and they always will be hurting.  That is why they are the "Lower classed".  Even a Rabbi in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago commented that the poor would be around forever.  What was true then is true now, and will be true in the future.

You say the lower classes get hurt.  I say they have always been hurting, and they always will be hurting.  That is why they are the "Lower classed".  Even a Rabbi in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago commented that the poor would be around forever.  What was true then is true now, and will be true in the future.


However, the fact that lower classes will always exist does not preclude us from helping them whenever possible.  Just because someone is more conservative than you doesn't mean they are soulless.  You can't force someone to just give away gobs of money to help out though.  While it's a pretty d!ck move on their part to be miserly and selfish with their money, rich people still have the right to their own pursuit of happiness, be it buying a big boat or forming a charitable foundation. 

However, the fact that lower classes will always exist does not preclude us from helping them whenever possible.  Just because someone is more conservative than you doesn't mean they are soulless.  You can't force someone to just give away gobs of money to help out though.  While it's a pretty d!ck move on their part to be miserly and selfish with their money, rich people still have the right to their own pursuit of happiness, be it buying a big boat or forming a charitable foundation. 


Do not confuse my often cynical statement with callousness.

I feel for the poor.  I think everything should be done within reason to help the poor.

However, we are also the only nation where "the poor" own televisions, have cable, drive cars, and live in a heated house with indoor plumbing.

And is it any wonder why so many countries want jobs like that for their people?  I have no problem sending some of the US jobs to India.  When you compare the poverty of that nation, it makes you realize how truely lucky we are over here.  If sending a few thousand "telephone support" jobs to Inda means that that many less families have to live in the poverty that we all associate with that country, that is just fabulous by me.

After all, I can't remember the last time we had a "Concert For Brooklyn" or a "We Are The World" chairity drive for West Virginia.

To me, all this "they are exporting jobs to other nations" is just fear.  Fear, and maybe a bit of xenophobia and racism.  Why don't we at the same time drag out the white sheets, and march around saying "No more Mexican Labor" and "No more jobs to India".

*shaking head*  but I forget, I am the racist xenophobe.

You misunderstood my post somehow, and it's partially my fault for not putting it in context.  My remarks in the last post were meant towards the topic starter, I merely used your quote as a jumping point.

I too am poor right now, but thanks to people much wealthier than I, I'm getting a chance to turn my life around.  I could probably have made it on my own, but a little help goes a long way :)  I never really expected any handouts though, and even if I wanted government aid, I probably wouldn't have qualified  :-\\

I believe the export of support jobs to foreign countries can have long term benefits, as domestic workers will have incentive to improve themselves to fill new jobs here in America.  I think there are government programs in place for job training and placement as long as the citizenry are willing to take advantage of them.

And is it any wonder why so many countries want jobs like that for their people?  I have no problem sending some of the US jobs to India.



That is the problem.  *I* do.  We should never sell out an American worker for ANY job no matter how "small" it may seem.  Let India solve it's own problems and create it's own goddamn economy. 

Now, the lack of health care is an issue to me. How can we sit here and proclaim the greatness of the United States when our own citizens die of diseases that can be treated?
We can't. That dosen't happen in Canada, in Great Britain and, yes, I'm going to say it.. In France.
I thought America was supposedly so much better then France, but yet, when I was ill in France, I was treated. Dang, we need to get our act together or before too long, they'll be walking around claiming to be so great, with their non-freedom fries.  ::)
Here's an idea. Why not have the Government subsidise insurance premiums. It's essentially like all the other transfer payments that currently exist. Your average Joe might save a $100 a year on his company insurance plan and thus not notice the extra $60 that came out of his paycheck in taxes, however, the guy painting fences for a living will notice, because all of a sudden, when his son breaks his arm, he can take him to a half decent hospital.



That is a great idea, dude.



Useing third world Labor is a major issue.
It does indeed undermine your average American.
It dosen't however undermine the Middle Classes, the middle classes in America today are your Lawyers, your financial planners, your basic office workers. These positions aren't going anywhere. It's the lower classes that are hurt.
I'm obviously not going to get a job turning a wrench on some piece of machinery, however, the guy on the other side of the tracks is, now.. all of a sudden that job is nowhere to be found.


Well, that is what I am saying.  Part of what I mean by the fact they are destroying the Middle class is that increasingly, you have to have a higher end job(that requires more education) now in order to be in the middle class(although not by the government's ridiculous standard of poverty).  There was a time in this country that once you got out of high school you could find a good blue-collar job, perhaps in a factory, and make a decent living for you and your family.  Nowadays though well-paying blue collar jobs seem to be few and far inbetween.  Its like the choice is increasingly either work for next to nothing at McDonald's or Wal-Mart or go through years of college in order to work(as a lawyer, or a scientist, or a doctor, or an engineer etc.).

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However, the fact that lower classes will always exist does not preclude us from helping them whenever possible.  Just because someone is more conservative than you doesn't mean they are soulless.  You can't force someone to just give away gobs of money to help out though.  While it's a pretty d!ck move on their part to be miserly and selfish with their money, rich people still have the right to their own pursuit of happiness, be it buying a big boat or forming a charitable foundation. 


Yes, you said more or less what I was going to say.

They will always be around and this makes me happy. I'm glad there is somebody there to do the sh*t I don't want to do. That dosen't however mean that it should be my sole objective in life to dick them as much as I can.

Why did John Carver cut the turkey?

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Do you know part of the reason why jobs such as the call center reps went to India?  Yes, it was for the "cheaper labor" aspect, but also because they couldn't staff the jobs with workers from here.  I used to work in a call center and we couldn't keep employees.  Why?  Because noone wants to sit on a phone and listen to people complain all day long, be yelled at, cursed out, etc. for something that they personally had nothing to do with.  When I started, I started at $9/hour.  By the time our office was closed and the calls routed to another office, they were hiring people at $11-$12/hour and even THOSE people didn't stay long.  Yes, they are paying those people a fraction of what they pay employees HERE, but the pay they get is considered "high" by local standards.  And, you can b!tch and moan all you want at them and they won't a) smart back at you or b) hang up on you (BOTH of which I've had happen to me by US CS reps - never ONCE when speaking to someone overseas) because they're just happy to HAVE a job.  Maybe if people were more appreciative of having a job like that HERE in the US, they wouldn't HAVE to go overseas.


So its all their fault for not appreciating what the bosses throw them? ::)

I have been arguing the issues in the above posts 'till I'm blue in the face. Let's just keep it simple here:

ATTENTION ALL AMERICANS:

Next time some stuffshirt on TV tells you businessmen know how to run the country and government doesn't work, don't believe him. That was Ronnie Reagan's central message, and America bought it, and we watched our economic strength and national treasure go straight down the crapper. It is 2006 and it's high time we put this "supply side economics" gimmick on the shelf with the whoopee cushion, the joy buzzer, the fake barf, and the rest of the practical jokes!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_salut.gif

So its all their fault for not appreciating what the bosses throw them? ::)
It's not what the bosses throw at them, it's the nature of customer service.  If you had ever worked it, you would understand what I mean.  How often do you call a 1-800 number to talk to someone to tell them how great their product/service/whatever was?  For most people, it's rarely (if ever).  How many people want to get paid to have people b!tch at them all day long and not be able to retaliate in any way, shape or form?  To have to bite their tongue no matter what was being said to them?  Would you?  Many other people wouldn't either.

i worked retail for a while. i had to wear a baseball cap and an apron that both had big oranges on them. the girls would always laugh at me.

let the immigrants wear the damn oranges from now on!

i worked retail for a while. i had to wear a baseball cap and an apron that both had big oranges on them. the girls would always laugh at me.

let the immigrants wear the damn oranges from now on!
Orange Julius ???

i worked retail for a while. i had to wear a baseball cap and an apron that both had big oranges on them. the girls would always laugh at me.

let the immigrants wear the damn oranges from now on!


Real pride in this country is when the citizens complain about unemployment because all the jobs available are the ones that they don't want to do...

Given the choice between starvation and wiping up people's shizzity off the floors, I will go with option #2.  But that's just me...

Real pride in this country is when the citizens complain about unemployment because all the jobs available are the ones that they don't want to do...

Given the choice between starvation and wiping up people's shizzity off the floors, I will go with option #2.  But that's just me...
typical right wing delusion, that there are people out there who WANT to starve.

Orange Julius ???
orange bowl. i don't think they're around anymore.

It's not what the bosses throw at them, it's the nature of customer service.  If you had ever worked it, you would understand what I mean.  How often do you call a 1-800 number to talk to someone to tell them how great their product/service/whatever was?  For most people, it's rarely (if ever).  How many people want to get paid to have people b!tch at them all day long and not be able to retaliate in any way, shape or form?  To have to bite their tongue no matter what was being said to them?  Would you?  Many other people wouldn't either.

I have worked call-center customer service. Yeah, I'd get people taking out their anger on me. You just don't take it real personal-like. I remained courteous but aloof. Just stuck to the company script, repeated things in the same tone of voice...which sometimes made irate customers positively exxxx-plode! If you engaged them personally in that job, you'd only risk saying somethint that could get YOU in trouble. Anyway, why get anvolved in some a-hole's temper tantrum? Ever heard of a shrink who makes ten bucks an hour!
:D

typical right wing delusion, that there are people out there who WANT to starve.


::)

We don't think they want to starve.. we just want them to starve.
At least I do.

I have worked call-center customer service. Yeah, I'd get people taking out their anger on me. You just don't take it real personal-like. I remained courteous but aloof. Just stuck to the company script, repeated things in the same tone of voice...which sometimes made irate customers positively exxxx-plode! If you engaged them personally in that job, you'd only risk saying somethint that could get YOU in trouble. Anyway, why get anvolved in some a-hole's temper tantrum? Ever heard of a shrink who makes ten bucks an hour!
:D
Yeah, you HAVE to desensitize yourself to their tirades.  I was a "supervisory assistant" (which meant I basically took all supervisor calls because they didn't want to deal with the people ::)) so the people were already po'd.  I think my favorite was the dentist who asked me where I got my "dentist's degree" then threatened to have charges brought against ME for "practicing medicine without a license" and "fraud" because I told him a woman's company wouldn't pay for her dental implants because they didn't feel they were "medically necessary".  I told him to go right ahead....I wasn't telling him he couldn't do the implants, I was just informing him that the company chose not to cover implants and we couldn't pay a claim for something that the company decided NOT to cover.  He then told me to go to hell :o

Real pride in this country is when the citizens complain about unemployment because all the jobs available are the ones that they don't want to do...


So are you implying real pride is not complaining?  Being happy with whatcha got?

No, that is NOT real pride.  If you're really proud of your country, you want it to always try to be as good as it possibly can.  There is always room for improvement.

See, its this sort of attitude that makes me weary of immigrants.  "well in our old country if you spoke out the secret police would come and take you away, so short of the government doing that everything else is a-ok with me!"

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In this country we need more love than pride.
Even pigs have pride.

In this country we need more love than pride.
Even pigs have pride.


Kudos, Max.  Nice statement. :)

 

^ The outlets for so-called libertarian thought, such as CATO, do not challenge the corporate paymasters who really run the federal government. The power corporations impose upon humanity here and abroad is generally ignored by so-called libertarians and is bolstered when acknowledged at all. Why? Because libertarian think-tanks owe their existance to the petroleum industry. Libertarians only pay lip service to ending "corporate welfare" for this reason. In order for libertarians to shut up their Philippics against food money for the poor and medicine for children is when we Lefties, say "Oh yeah, what about corporate welfare?" Then they only say, "the government shouldn't bail out corporations either," and then without a pause they carry on their reactionary screeds that only serve their corporate backers.
::)

^ The outlets for so-called libertarian thought, such as CATO, do not challenge the corporate paymasters who really run the federal government.


"Digital Millennium Copyright Act Hinders Innovation And Exasperates Consumers"

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6025

You were saying? :)

Maxwell and I will never see eye to eye on things, but I'll give CATO their due:  They've finally woken up to the fact that the party of Reagan is dead.

"Digital Millennium Copyright Act Hinders Innovation And Exasperates Consumers"

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6025

You were saying? :)

Maxwell and I will never see eye to eye on things, but I'll give CATO their due:  They've finally woken up to the fact that the party of Reagan is dead.

You miss the point entirely. The party of Reagan was the party of deregulated corporate tyranny. What you see in the above article is not a repudiation of corporate practices in general, but just a quibble of an aspect of corporate practices. When the fascists subverted the libertarians, they turned the "individual" into the "corporation," and hoodwinked everybody into thinking they were talking about individual rights.  The substance of the libertarian philosophy became: your liberty shall be commensurate with the amount of money and propert you own.
If CATO really wants to be a think-tank that values the rights of individual human beings, they must repudiate Ronald Reagan and not lionize him. The Reagan Administration had the same values as the George W. Bush administration has.

I always heard libertarians complain about how "big government" has deprived us of the individual rights our Founding Fathers intended for us. The constant cry from libertarians and conservatives is for a return to our country's foundations. If you want to go back 1791 you will have to do so without the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the Constitution. You will also have to dispense with "corporations" as we know them. Until the late 19th century, a chartered corporation was set up to perform a specific contract, and then dissolve. For whatever flaws the Founding Fathers had, they certainly did not want corporations to becme extra-governmental fiefdoms rivaling state power in themselves!
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