Maybe this has been discussed before, but it's something I'm curious to know what others think:

All colleges have a bunch of different organizations.  Religious, student leadership, athletic, majors....
There's the International Student Council, along with with associations for different countries to celebrate that country's culture.  My fiance (who is a German-born Bengali)  used to be on the ISC and said that ANYBODY can join and participate in the activities- even Americans (USA) 
What we have a problem with though, is those organizations that are based on race or skin color (i.e. Black Student Association, etc)  I just don't get it- it's obviously not okay to have a White People Association (nor would I want there to be one!!!), so why is it acceptable for other races to do the same?

Please don't take this the wrong way.  I am not at all racist, that's exactly why I have a problem with RACE-based organizations.  It's one thing to join together people from your country of origin or if you're interested in that culture you can join.  I just don't find it proper to make an organization that , even while it is celebrating a culture of sorts, by the title EXCLUDES all other ethnic groups.

What are yalls thoughts on this?

Hmm, I had no idea such organisations still existing. Apart from like the Klan or the Black Panthers and their offshoots. I too support cultural organisations, but I really don't know about race-based organisations which exclude all other races. I can't really think of any good reason why a race-specific group should be created, unless they all happen to share something exclusive, like language, but they don't really have things like that over here so I can't comment.

Eh...I don't think they should be totally exclusionist. But "black" is also sort of a culture (African-American), for most American people of Subsaharan African origin, so it's more complicated. White really isn't. I'm white, and have very little in common culturally with most people who are.

Eh...I don't think they should be totally exclusionist. But "black" is also sort of a culture (African-American), for most American people of Subsaharan African origin, so it's more complicated. White really isn't. I'm white, and have very little in common culturally with most people who are.


Another question is what is a white person?  I consider pretty much every European culture to be "white", but are Semitics white too?  What about North Africans, or the Turkish?

 
What we have a problem with though, is those organizations that are based on race or skin color (i.e. Black Student Association, etc)  I just don't get it- it's obviously not okay to have a White People Association (nor would I want there to be one!!!), so why is it acceptable for other races to do the same?

Please don't take this the wrong way.  I am not at all racist, that's exactly why I have a problem with RACE-based organizations.  It's one thing to join together people from your country of origin or if you're interested in that culture you can join.  I just don't find it proper to make an organization that , even while it is celebrating a culture of sorts, by the title EXCLUDES all other ethnic groups.



Motherofgodanotheroneofthese.....

"Even while it is celebrating a culture of sorts"  what the heck is that supposed to mean?  And perhaps you feel that the title gives the appearance of being exclusionary, have you ever looked at the lists of student organizations at the different colleges?  This is a short list with some of the ethnically based organizations. All of these, even the "Black" clubs are open to all, but their name denotes their focus.


Arab Students Association
African Student Association
Asian American Student Association
Cambodian Student Association
Casa Dominicana/CASA
English Speaking Carribean Association/ESCA
Greek Affairs
Jewish Student Union/JSU
Korean Student Association
Muslim Students Association
National Pan-Hellenic Council
Native American Student Association
Panhellenic Council
Persian Student Organization
South Asian Student Association
Student Association for the Multicultural Brazilian Alliance (S.A.M.B.A.)
Student Alliance for Israel
Taiwanese Student Association
Vietnamese Student Association

Many of the students who join aren't from these countries(country of origin), they are children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews etc of people from these countries, very much American, but joining
a club with people who share a common bond.
As for clubs any clubs that would call themselves "White Peoples Club"  the usually are found on fraternity row, they are exclusionary, and they are not centered around a "culture of sorts", what they are centered around is usually a beer keg(and maybe a stripper or two)

"Nelson Mandela is not African-American. Teresa-Heinz-Kerry is African-American.  Who's more entitled to reparations?"

That usually confuses both dark-skinned racists *and* white-skinned racists long enough for me to run far, far away from either of 'em.

What do I think? I think it is your Constitutional right to freedom of assembly. However, I would be very wary of, say, a White Students Association on campus. White folks have a bad track record when it comes to this sort of thing!
:D

I was not at all implying that there should ever be a "white student organization", or that there is any such thing as a uniquely "white" culture. 

Danoota, the clubs you listed are mostled based on country, geographic area, or religion.  That I don't have a problem with since they are obviously open to people of any race or ethnicity.  For example, someone could be Korean by birth, but not necessarily of oriental ethnicity.  But you don't even have to be born there to join.  At my school, there are tons of Americans (including caucasian americans) in the Japan Student Association.  My fiance used to be a part of the Bangladesh, Bulgaria, AND Latin America student associations, even though he's not Bulgarian or Latin American.
The Black Student Association (and i think there is also a "black" fraternity or sorority) are probably equally open to anybody.  However, I have yet to see anyone of any other "color" in the organization.  I think maybe the name itself dissuades others from considering joining.   

I was not at all implying that there should ever be a "white student organization", or that there is any such thing as a uniquely "white" culture. 

However, I have yet to see anyone of any other "color" in the organization.  I think maybe the name itself dissuades others from considering joining.   



Here's what I suggest, honestly.  Find someone in that organization -- not just anyone...but a leader.  And invite them to lunch and ask them about it.  Find out what the mission statement and goals of the organization are.  And find out what they'd think of someone outside the stated target group joining.  Ask if anyone has ever expressed interest. 

I work with a black man who goes to a church with a primarily black congregation.  He says that they'd be fine with anyone showing up and that person would be fully welcomed.  He says, "Why don't any white people come?"  He says that many blacks get the impression that whites are fine with "them" coming into "our" circles...but, he asks, why don't we ever go to places where blacks are predominant? (of course he is talking generally, not meaning every white person).  We have very open and frank discussions about these things and it has been very helpful for both of us.  I've had a few occasions in my life where I have entered the social circle of another ethnic group and I have been accepted and learned so much from doing that.

I say, if you have a question about some group of people -- whether an ethnic group, a club, a religion....go to the source.  Many people greatly appreciate that effort!  :)

Another question is what is a white person?  I consider pretty much every European culture to be "white", but are Semitics white too?  What about North Africans, or the Turkish?


Well, I'm Semitic, and I'm white. Yeah, they're white.

Well, I'm Semitic, and I'm white. Yeah, they're white.

It depends on what you mean by Semitic. The term anti-Semitic is a misnomer. Arabs are Semites, too. What people usually mean by "anti-Semitic" is anti-Jewish.
Oh, and the real Aryans are the Asian Indians!
:D

It depends on what you mean by Semitic. The term anti-Semitic is a misnomer. Arabs are Semites, too. What people usually mean by "anti-Semitic" is anti-Jewish.
Oh, and the real Aryans are the Asian Indians!
:D


I know. Well, technically, Ashkenazi Jewish is a mixture of eastern European and an ethnic group that is close to the Kurds, Armenians, and Turks.

I know. Well, technically, Ashkenazi Jewish is a mixture of eastern European and an ethnic group that is close to the Kurds, Armenians, and Turks.



Genetically though, would you be almost totally European? I mean, even though you are Jewish, you wouldn't have much of the original 'blood' so as to speak. You'd be indistinguishable from an 'Aryan.' Am I correct?

Genetically though, would you be almost totally European? I mean, even though you are Jewish, you wouldn't have much of the original 'blood' so as to speak. You'd be indistinguishable from an 'Aryan.' Am I correct?



No...there was actually a genetic test done on Jews. We're a mix of Turkish-Armenian-Kurdish type blood and "Eastern European" blood. We're closest to the Kurds. That's why there are some rather dark Ashkenazi Jews, which I'm not, having inherited my father's coloring, who got it from his mother, who was German-Jewish. My grandfather and aunt are as dark as any Arab, with kinky black hair.

No...there was actually a genetic test done on Jews. We're a mix of Turkish-Armenian-Kurdish type blood and "Eastern European" blood. We're closest to the Kurds. That's why there are some rather dark Ashkenazi Jews, which I'm not, having inherited my father's coloring, who got it from his mother, who was German-Jewish. My grandfather and aunt are as dark as any Arab, with kinky black hair.


So you're not really Israelis?

I was not at all implying that there should ever be a "white student organization", or that there is any such thing as a uniquely "white" culture. 

Danoota, the clubs you listed are mostled based on country, geographic area, or religion.  That I don't have a problem with since they are obviously open to people of any race or ethnicity.  For example, someone could be Korean by birth, but not necessarily of oriental ethnicity.  But you don't even have to be born there to join.  At my school, there are tons of Americans (including caucasian americans) in the Japan Student Association.  My fiance used to be a part of the Bangladesh, Bulgaria, AND Latin America student associations, even though he's not Bulgarian or Latin American.
The Black Student Association (and i think there is also a "black" fraternity or sorority) are probably equally open to anybody.  However, I have yet to see anyone of any other "color" in the organization.  I think maybe the name itself dissuades others from considering joining. 





The term "Black" is used as a designation for African American, and it was until the very late 80s and 90s that the term African American was even considered. The terms are very much interchangeable and I do not doubt that when anyone see the name Black Student Association they know that it is African American Student Association.  If others are not joining it because it is called "Black Students Association" then they probably would not join if it was the "African American Student Association" or even "People of Color Association".  There are many student associations that are not welcoming to others.  When I was at UMass there was the
Irish Historical Society, if you weren't specifically Boston Irish you weren't welcome. That is the way it is, so big deal.... this is the way of the world and there are many clubs to join, or if you really want, join the one that may not welcome you, both sides may be surprised.  To think, or imply, this is attitude is specific to the Black Student Union is being very naive.

At UMass we have "The Black Mass Communications Project." When I first arrived on campus, I thought it was a Satanist group--they celebrate "Black Mass" don't they? Nope, it's an African-American-oriented organization that hosts dances, parties, radio and cable programs, and so forth!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/10/teufel.gif

As for clubs any clubs that would call themselves "White Peoples Club"  the usually are found on fraternity row, they are exclusionary, and they are not centered around a "culture of sorts", what they are centered around is usually a beer keg(and maybe a stripper or two)


...and don't forget DRUGS!!!! lots of DRUGS!!!!

Maybe this has been discussed before, but it's something I'm curious to know what others think:

All colleges have a bunch of different organizations.  Religious, student leadership, athletic, majors....
There's the International Student Council, along with with associations for different countries to celebrate that country's culture.  My fiance (who is a German-born Bengali)  used to be on the ISC and said that ANYBODY can join and participate in the activities- even Americans (USA) 
What we have a problem with though, is those organizations that are based on race or skin color (i.e. Black Student Association, etc)  I just don't get it- it's obviously not okay to have a White People Association (nor would I want there to be one!!!), so why is it acceptable for other races to do the same?

Please don't take this the wrong way.  I am not at all racist, that's exactly why I have a problem with RACE-based organizations.  It's one thing to join together people from your country of origin or if you're interested in that culture you can join.  I just don't find it proper to make an organization that , even while it is celebrating a culture of sorts, by the title EXCLUDES all other ethnic groups.

What are yalls thoughts on this?


1. All groups will still need a group that represents who they are, regardless of race, gender,sexual orientation, or religious affiliation. We all don't have to be around each other 24/7.

2. This statement always comes up only when non-white groups form their own alliances/organizations to offset their exclusion from white organizations. Whites have been (and continue to) doing so for years. To be quite frank, it is these organizations that tend to be more open toward people that aren't necessarily part of their grouping; whereas, white groups tend to have the most issues with non-white members (or possibility of).

I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for this, but here's my view:

I think that "white organizations" (exactly what those are, I'm not sure) get a bad rap.  I'm not saying that there have never been groups who have excluded members of a different "color" (or that there currently aren't), but I'm sick of hearing about how "accepting" "non-white groups" are and how "exclusionary" the "white groups" are.  When I was in college, there were 2 fraternities that had members that were ALL the same race/ethnicity/whatever:  the Jewish fraternity and the black fraternity.  A good friend of mine had grown up in a predominately "black" area and was friends with many members of the black fraternity.  Despite that, he was not allowed to even attempt to rush the fraternity.  He ended up rushing a predominately "white" fraternity and was welcomed with open arms.

That being said, I think it's wrong for ANY group to deny membership to someone simply because they are "different".  I don't care WHAT the basis of the group is.  I think if someone truly wants to be part of a group, it shouldn't matter.  Of course, there have always been (and will always be) those who attempt to join simply to cause trouble.  If a "white" person attempts to join a "non-white" group and is denied, it's considered "the group's prerogative"; if the roles are reversed, it's "discrimination".  IMO, it's wrong either way.


Did he feel entitled to join b/c he grew up in a predominantly "black" area? Maybe that was what put them off. It could be that he was trying too hard to be accepted.

Ah yes, I love these double standards.

So we have to be politically correct in ever walk of life. For instance, in any commercial, you always see a black man, a white man and a black or white woman.
Often you'll see somebody who's retarded or fairly obviously gay.
They all seem to get along together.
Isn't it just marvelous.

Now, that kind of stuff just makes me laugh.

I associate with people who are similar to myself, who share similar interests, I don't know many Black guys who are in to Scandinavian Death Metal.

So, it seems to be a case of double standards.

We have to love one another all the time, except when we only want to be around people who are the same as us?

I'm all for black only and white only groups.

I doubt I'd have too much fun at an Omega Psi Phi party, I doubt Kobe Bryant would do too well at an Aryan nations meeting either.

Jeez, people are different, the sooner the bleeding heart liberals can understand that the better.
There is no need for forced segregation or forced integration, people will naturally flock to those who are the same as them. Let it be.

^ I understand what you're saying, but let's say you started a group for Scandinavian Death Metal fans.  All of you are white.  Then, a black man comes along and is a fan as well and wants to join your group.  Are you saying that you would have no problem telling him "Sorry, this is only for WHITE SDM fans"?

I have no problem with groups with similar interests forming.  It's when they discriminate against someone with the same interests simply because they are a different gender/race/religion/ethnicity that I begin to have a problem.


No, If he had something to input I could care less.

But the point I was making is that it isn't even neccesary to segreate in such a manner, we do it ourselves.

There's always an exception to the rule and that's fine, whoopdedoo, raise your little flag, you're special, great, but 99% of the time, people associate with others who are similar to them.

I agree.  The ONLY possible reason I can see for someone to try and join a group of people without similar interests is to cause trouble.  Also, while I don't think they should be allowed to discriminate against someone simply because of their race/ethnicity/religion/etc., I don't think they should be forced to accept someone either.....if they are, I can't imagine them treating the "forced acceptance" member very kindly.


I agree.  Also, I think in certain cases only allow a certain race can be acceptable.  For instance, I see no problem with only allowing Chinese people to cook at an authentic Chinese restaurant.  As long as only French people can cook at authentic French restaurants, I don't see any problem with that.

However, if we're talking computer-related work, for instance, then it's disgraceful to not allow members of a certain race, because race doesn't make a difference in the product they're serving, unlike say having a white person prepare Chinese food.

So you're not really Israelis?


Eh...sort of. At one point. Way back. Yeah. Well, the non-Ashkenazim are more, we're a mix of Israeli merchants who married goyim German and E. European ladies way, way back.

I agree.  The ONLY possible reason I can see for someone to try and join a group of people without similar interests is to cause trouble.  Also, while I don't think they should be allowed to discriminate against someone simply because of their race/ethnicity/religion/etc., I don't think they should be forced to accept someone either.....if they are, I can't imagine them treating the "forced acceptance" member very kindly.


I'm not sure about your first point, but I certainly agree with your second.  Let people have clubs and make their own decisions about membership, or don't have clubs at all.  You want an example of Big Brother alive and well and living in America?  Take a look at policies ruling over school clubs and organizations.  Yikes.

I have no problem with groups with similar interests forming.  It's when they discriminate against someone with the same interests simply because they are a different gender/race/religion/ethnicity that I begin to have a problem.


I agree with you here too.  I personally have a very big problem with people like this.  Unfortunately, they exist.

I'm sure I'm going to get slammed for this, but here's my view:

I think that "white organizations" (exactly what those are, I'm not sure) get a bad rap.  I'm not saying that there have never been groups who have excluded members of a different "color" (or that there currently aren't), but I'm sick of hearing about how "accepting" "non-white groups" are and how "exclusionary" the "white groups" are.  When I was in college, there were 2 fraternities that had members that were ALL the same race/ethnicity/whatever:  the Jewish fraternity and the black fraternity.  A good friend of mine had grown up in a predominately "black" area and was friends with many members of the black fraternity.  Despite that, he was not allowed to even attempt to rush the fraternity.  He ended up rushing a predominately "white" fraternity and was welcomed with open arms.



the reason that black fraternities such as Alpha Phi Alpha exist is because not too long ago blacks were completely excluded from the Greek system. In fact, "Historically Black Colleges" exist for the same reason.
I find it hysterical that Aryans have no problem excluding others from their society, but scream bloody murder when non-Aryans organize for their own benefit.

the reason that black fraternities such as Alpha Phi Alpha exist is because not too long ago blacks were completely excluded from the Greek system. In fact, "Historically Black Colleges" exist for the same reason.
I find it hysterical that Aryans have no problem excluding others from their society, but scream bloody murder when non-Aryans organize for their own benefit.


Thank you! My point exactly!

I find it hysterical that non-Aryans can exclude someone from their "society", but will scream bloody murder when it's done to them.  Two wrongs don't make a right.  The friend I was speaking of was NOT "Aryan".  He was Hispanic, his grandparents were originally from Cuba.  Funny how when someone says that a "minority" group excluded someone, people automatically assume the person excluded was white.


Aryan supremacy existed in Cuba for centuries, as the island was used as "disribution warehouse" for African slaves, and yes, there are "White Cubans" as there are also "Afro-Cubanos" and I'm willing to bet that your friend is of the former.

Thank you! My point exactly!


unfortunately, many people just don't get it.

You'd be wrong.  He is very dark skinned, but has straight hair - if he shaved his head, you wouldn't know the difference.  His great-great(-great? sorry, can't remember exactly how many generations back they were) grandmother (maternal) and great-great(-great - again, can't remember but I DO know they came on the same boat) grandfather (paternal) WERE originally from Africa. 


it's still the Black fraternity's decision to make. perhaps your friend "choked" while Rushing the  Black fraternity, and maybe the White fraternity gave him a pass so that they could have a "token Negro" around to "keep up appearences."

Can you not read?  I SAID, The black fraternity TOLD him he was not getting "a pass" because he was "not black".  I ALSO SAID, The other fraternity was predominately white, I never said they had NO "minority" members.  Keep trying..... ::)

And, again, why is "the black fraternities decision" and perfectly okey-dokey to deny a non-black (or even someone who doesn't appear to be black), but if ANY other ethnicity does it, it's racism?


This is the very straight forward and good question.  Can't ask it much more clearly than that. :)

And, again, why is "the black fraternities decision" and perfectly okey-dokey to deny a non-black (or even someone who doesn't appear to be black), but if ANY other ethnicity does it, it's racism?


don't you mean " if WHITES do it, it's racism?"

the answer is simple: the Greek system is Aryan supremacist, as is American society in general. Black fraternities came into existance as a response to Aryan supremacy. They do not exist merely as social clubs as Aryan Greeks do.

Can you not read?  I SAID, The black fraternity TOLD him he was not getting "a pass" because he was "not black".  I ALSO SAID, The other fraternity was predominately white, I never said they had NO "minority" members.  Keep trying..... ::)

And, again, why is "the black fraternities decision" and perfectly okey-dokey to deny a non-black (or even someone who doesn't appear to be black), but if ANY other ethnicity does it, it's racism?


Don't paint the entire fraternity as being racist b/c there are far more non-black members in black fraternities and sororities than there are in white fraternities and sororities. To be honest, as a sorority member, it sounds like your friend just may have been rejected for other reasons and may have used the race card as a means to explain the rejection - that is often possible. It's not uncommon for this to occur.

See, this is my point.  A white person tells a story of someone being excluded and "non-white" people try to justify it right and left.  Now, if a "non-white" person tells a story of someone being excluded and the white people try to justify it, WE'RE racists.  What a bunch of balony! ::)


Fact:  Racism knows no color boundaries.  There are racists of every ethnicity.  Just as there are men and women who are sexist.  And people of every age can be guilty of age discrimination.

Problem is, IMHO, for so long this country has been controlled by middle aged, wealthy, white males that it became a full-blown social habit to push against them -- for good reason.  Now that things are changing (not fully changed, but changing) it's hard for some people to see it any differently.

The only way to learn more about this particular situation though (and I think this is really the way to approach any situation of this ilk), is to invite one of the leaders of this frat out for a cup o' java or a glass of wine or whatever ... and say, "I'm feeling upset by this, would you explain it to me?  Can we talk about it?"  That's the respectful thing to do and it's the only thing that will provide real understanding and open the door to the possible bridging of the gap.

Fact:  Racism knows no color boundaries.  There are racists of every ethnicity. 

Agreed, but I caution, the damage racism does is commensurate with the social power of the racists.

Agreed, but I caution, the damage racism does is commensurate with the social power of the racists.


Well, sociologically speaking, yes.  I agree and understand those implications.  But I doubt that makes a whole lotta difference to the individual who was the subject of the discrimination.

Well, sociologically speaking, yes.  I agree and understand those implications.  But I doubt that makes a whole lotta difference to the individual who was the subject of the discrimination.


It does make a difference, if you were to discriminate against me, well so what, but if the only employer in town were to, well that would make a big difference. 

Well, sociologically speaking, yes.  I agree and understand those implications.  But I doubt that makes a whole lotta difference to the individual who was the subject of the discrimination.

Watch the move "In The Heat of the Night," it's a great illustration of what Danoota and I are saying, plus it's just an awesome movie. You can see it time and again and it never gets tired!
http://imdb.com/title/tt0061811/

Watch the move "In The Heat of the Night," it's a great illustration of what Danoota and I are saying, plus it's just an awesome movie. You can see it time and again and it never gets tired!
http://imdb.com/title/tt0061811/


I've seen the movie (awesome) and I do understand your point.  Thanks.