I'm sure you have all heard about this case. It is one of those non-story stories the media loves to harp on. I only bring it up here because the manner of the dialogue disturbs me. It's either:
a. The prostitute was raped and battered and the Duke Lacrosse team are criminals, or
b. The prostitute was too inebriated to think straight and was already physically traumatized by a prior assault, thus the Lacross players did nothing wrong.

I am sorry if anyone objects to "prostitute" instead of "exotic dancer." In the case of this woman, the "exotic dancer" designation is shabby euphemism.

I feel a lot of compassion for this prostitute as she is obviously a terribly disturbed individual with multiple problems in her life. Whether or not the Lacrosse players assaulted her makes no difference in how I feel about them. Those guys are thugs. When a gang of drunk men hires a prostitute, er, "exotic dancer" to come over and party with them, they've got one thing on their minds. They don't want to watch, they want to participate. If Duke University had any honor as an institution, a disciplinary committee would need to confirm nothing other than the fact that the Lacrosse time hired a prostitute to entertain at a debauched party. From there, the expulsions would begin.
However, I see the news media attacking the prostitute as the problem since forensics cannot link her trauma to the men at that party. I don't really even know the whole story on the prostitute. She apparently has drug and alcohol problems and mental health issues. Her life has spun out of contrtol and into petty crime and sex for cash. I am certain her history is full of pain and sadness.
The woman's criminal and irresponsible sexual behavior does not make her less-than. It does not make her a piece of meat for spoiled Ivy League brats to pass around. Duke needs to send a message they will not tolerate this kind of rank exploitation by any of the student body. The administration needs to say, "you don't come to Duke to behave like savages."

The general trend in society is disturbing. Sex work used to be a last resort. Now it is a career choice. Teenagers by the millions await their eighteenth birthdays so the can go to work as "exotic dancers." What does it say about a society in which so many young women believe their best option is to drop trou for dollars?

A big mistake my liberal friends made was to legitimize--no make that celebrate--the sex industry. In spite of the lies the PR for the sex industry tells, women do not fare well in strpping, prostitution, and pornography. So let us leave the Annie Sprinkle land of make-believe, and talk some common sense about Duke.
a. If you work as an "exotic dancer," you will probably get hurt. If you work a party with forty drunk college guys, you will most certainly get hurt.
b. If you are throwing a party for the guys and you hire "exotic dancers," you stand a good chance of something really bad happening to you and your friends.
Some of you might want to defend one side or the other. Forget it. Let's get beyond the legal consequences. I am talking about the moral and psychological consequences for both parties. It is time to think practically about the burgeoning sex industry and what happens to those who participate in it.
Sex is not a bad thing. We should not go back to the Victorian shame about our sexuality. However, it is time for a new understanding that sex is not a toy, and it certainly is not a party favor.

That is my two cents.
8)

I went to Duke. 

I've also had stripper boobs slammed into my face while in North Carolina, but I guess that was a little different :D

Anyway...to address point a., it was unclear from the media stories whether the evidence of rape on the victim was due to events from that party or from prior assaults.  Even if the Duke lacrosse team did not instigate the assault, by providing the venue for the party, they are at least indirectly responsible for it.  As to point b., that is the cynical way to look at it since a lot of times, it seems like women in that position (I'm not sure how to word it better) try to take advantage of people of privilege and dig for gold.

This story would be a true non-story if not for a few things:

1.  The Duke lacrosse team, a nationally ranked powerhouse;

2.  Duke University, a nationally and world-renowned private institution;

3.  The fact that Durham, NC, for the most part, is a sheeshhole.  I know, I've lived there.  I hate Durham.  That's why I usually hung out in Cary, Raleigh, or Chapel Hill.  Duke University is the shining light in a cesspool of poverty that shouldn't have happened, but it's there.  Durham's population is comprised heavily of people of Latin and African descent, which unfortunately translates into "poor" and "uneducated" ( :( ) and thus creates a friction between the city and the university.  This event does not help things very much.

4.  Oh yeah, and the fact that the victim is black and her alleged attackers were white.


What disgusts me most about this story is that it seems one of the attendees at the party (don't recall if he was affiliated with the lacrosse team or an actual player) wrote a scathing e-mail about beating up more strippers just hours after the party and the news blew up.  It's also sad that they can't treat this as a rape and not a race issue.  Rape is bad no matter what color the victim or the rapist is. 

Rape is rape, and no matter what her profession is (I've seen no evidence she's a hooker and a stripper is not a hooker), she didn't deserve to be sexually assaulted, whether it was by the Duke lacrosse team or by someone prior to getting to that party.

2.  Duke University, a nationally and world-renowned private institution;

World-renowned?  Sorry, must have missed that one...


Rape is bad no matter what color the victim or the rapist is. 

Certainly is... though it does bring to mind a brouhaha from a few years ago at a rape trial (I believe it was), when the victim's doctor's testimony was reported in a national newspaper as being from "the rapist", rather than her "therapist"...


I'm sure you have all heard about this case.
...
That is my two cents.

I hadn't, but it's a pretty sorry story.  I'd like to think that where I went to Uni, guys would get slung out for this kind of behaviour.. but I'm more inclined to think cynically that it would have been hushed up more successfully :(

Rape is rape, and no matter what her profession is (I've seen no evidence she's a hooker and a stripper is not a hooker), she didn't deserve to be sexually assaulted, whether it was by the Duke lacrosse team or by someone prior to getting to that party.


That's right.  She wouldn't have sought medical attention if she rendered the services that she thought
she was there to perform.  Even if it was more than dancing, if they hired her to do one of the guys,
then the rest was without her consent and was rape.  The DNA only proves that the guys who gave it
up weren't the ones who raped her, anyone anyone here really believe the guys involved did?  She didn't
wait a day or two, she went immediately to the police.  AND, earlier that afternoon there was a call into
the police by a couple of African American females who had walked by the house and were called
ni**ers,  the house had been censured before and was being "watched" by the University because of
previous bad behaviour.  Something went on in that house, and it was ugly. 

World-renowned?  Sorry, must have missed that one...


http://www.duke.edu

:)

I basically agree with Rice Cube on this one. You get a swarm of jocks or frat boys together and women cease to be human beings.

I wish it was as cut and dry as "a stripper is not a hooker and a  hooker is not a stripper." There are obvious differences, but the principle is the same. When you get drugs involved, chances are the addict will do anything to get her fix.

This woman was anything but an innocent babe in the woods. From what I have read, she has been involved in petty crime. That is why I said she is obviously disturbed. What was she thinking showing up at that party when she badly needed medical treatment. I believe her psychiatric competence was compromised by drugs and turmoil.
Yes, a lot of women turn to the sex industry to "gold dig," but women are encouraged to be gold diggers before they even hit puberty. Our pop-culture's messages to girls and women are totally toxic.

The fact there's no DNA match doesn't mean she wasn't raped.  They could have assaulted her with a broom handle, a toilet plunger handle, anything like that.  She had anal and vaginal trauma, so SOMETHING happened.  Whether you use your johnson or a broom, it's still rape and sexual assault.

The only thing I don't like is if these boys didn't do anything at all, and this woman accused them of doing it because they were affluent and white, she should go to jail or be punished in some way.

Here is what I have heard, albeit in the media reports:

1.  DNA testing of the team for NO MATCH for the *ahem* "material" found at the crime scene.

2.  A local cop was called to a (Wal-Mart?) parking lot where the victim was refusing to get out of a car and was visibly drunk, no signs of trauma.  The Wal-Mart person who called 911 about her concurs with the cop's version.  I am not sure if this was before or after the alleged attack.

3.  The lacrosse team did have a party and the victim was there stripping exotic dancing.

So....

...I suppose that if she was raped by the lacrosse team they all coulda worn protection (not likely for a drunken party but still possible) or they all had sex Bill Clinton style so that they could claim to not have really had sex.

...Will be interesting to see what the rest of the evidence/testimony is.  Till then I have formed not much opinion either way.  Forensics at this point (at least in Media Court) tend to work to advantage of the lacrosse team though.  But that is the media.

Throw them out of school because they had a party with lots of debauchery?  I did not know that Duke had a rule that covered this sort of thing, especially off campus.  Of course if they are convicted of rape then throw the book at 'em and expel from the school.

no evidence -- no DNA, latex, lubricant, or spermicide-- was found on the alleged "victim". the case should be dropped

no evidence -- no DNA, latex, lubricant, or spermicide-- was found on the alleged "victim". the case should be dropped


Maybe they wore lambskins ???

Maybe they wore lambskins ???


all over their bodies? the so-called "victim" was checked for DNA beneath her nails--nothing was found!

I have to admit, it isn't looking good for her.  I am wondering what the evidence is that the DA has
that is making him/her go forward with this?

no evidence -- no DNA, latex, lubricant, or spermicide-- was found on the alleged "victim". the case should be dropped



Did you ever think she could have been raped with a foreign object? 

I believe that two lacrosse players have been indicted by the grand jury.  Apparently it is possible in rape cases to indict someone without physical DNA evidence.

Did you ever think she could have been raped with a foreign object? 


or that she could made the whole story up?  :o

Maybe they wore lambskins ???

Oh, that's what the little symbol on the corner of the package means! And all this time I thought it was a serving suggestion...
:-X

I don't know if the sex worker made the whole thing up in re the assault, but I'll bet the Duke boys called her the "N" word!

Is that grounds for them being arrested and for her to, most likely in my opinion, lie to police?

I dunno...but all's I can tell you I'm glad I'm neither a Durham County "exectic dancer" with two kids and a self-destructive habit to feed nor a loudmouth bigot lacrosse player from Duke U. What pitiful specimens of humanity all.
::)

the case against one of the alleged "rapists" who was "identified" by the so-called "victim" is falling apart. a cabbie claims that he dropped off Reid Seligman at West Campus, nowhere near the "crime scene"

This topic is back on page 1 because it just won't go away!

Now they've got Stuart Taylor, a lawyer affiliated with the Brookings Institute, and his book "Until Proven Innocent."

The pity party of the jocks rides on.  One CATO audience member on C-SPAN compared this case to the "Scottsboro Boys." 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottsboro_boys

That's the line.  No way.

Legally the three young men were found innocent of the charges.  We cannot know for sure what happened in the team captains' house on 3/13/06 because the accuser, Crystal Gail Magnum, has been diagnosed with multiple psychiatric disorders aggravated by concomitant drug abuse.  Though your feminist jurists would call it irrelevant, it did not bode well for Magnum that she was a stripper and a prostitute.  Furthermore, prosecuter Mike Nifong did push the case beyond ethical standards of the legal profession in hopes of a victory to further his political career.  The defense should take the exoneration and shut their mouths.

But no.

Three scions of the establishment were almost made felons by the scurrilous accusations of mentally ill Black woman.  That her case even got to court was an outrage for conservatives.  Now we have clowns like Stuart Taylor, Jr., trying to make it a case for the textbooks.

I still contend two points 15 months after I started this thread:
1. If roles were reversed and a White Duke cheerleader accused three drug-addled Black thugs from the streets of raping her, this story would have had a 180-degree different tone.  Anybody who says otherwise is fooling himself. 

2. Conservatives are always finger-wagging about moral rectitude and personal responsibility.  I have heard only two references to this.  One commentator did say in '06 that you could be asking for trouble if you invite strippers to your house.  Taylor himself mentioned on C-SPAN that the students' parents were angry they had a stripper party (at least the stripper party in which they got in trouble).  Otherwise, the mainstream media has made martyrs of these three young men and still does. 

What happened to the old-fashioned legal concept of "moral turpitude"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude

They are certainly happy to make Magnum's moral turpitude an issue.  However, back in the days of in loco parentis at college, 40+ years ago, to which conservatives wish to return, all students on the roster of that party would have been summarily expelled.  Rape would not have been the issue.  If you were drinking liquor with strippers, your character did not meet the standards for Duke men.  If you brought the school's name into such a sordid affair because you got arrested, then Duke would have no choice but to expel the lot of you to maintain its good name in the community.

Conservatives charge liberals with turning our universities into dens of iniquity and trying to make the patronizing prostitutes an act without shame. 

Here was their big chance to show they meant it.  But they don't mean it, not for rich White boys.  If conservatives did wish to adhere to pre-sexual revolution values, they would have accepted the legal victory for the three defendents, but held them in moral disgrace.  The message they have sent instead is boys will be boys and partying with hookers is just a young man's rite of passage.  As far as I'm concerned from here conservatives have forefeited their status as "Culture Warriors."
::)

^ Thank You

All the breast beating about the "ordeal" of these "boys"  drives me crazy.  Yes the prosecutor was way out of line and he has been punished, much more than other prosecutors who have done the same and haven't had to pay any price even though there actions sent men to death row.  Now the poor kids want compensation in the millions of dollars, and will probably get an amount the is more than has been given to men let out by the Innocence Project collectively.    If I was the parents of these boys I would be so ashamed, embarrased, and downright angry about their actions the only place they would be would be out of the house working there asses of to repay every cent spent on this case out of their own pockets.  The fraternity should be censured, if not outright thrown off of campus.

^ Thank You

All the breast beating about the "ordeal" of these "boys"  drives me crazy.  Yes the prosecutor was way out of line and he has been punished, much more than other prosecutors who have done the same and haven't had to pay any price even though there actions sent men to death row.  Now the poor kids want compensation in the millions of dollars, and will probably get an amount the is more than has been given to men let out by the Innocence Project collectively.    If I was the parents of these boys I would be so ashamed, embarrased, and downright angry about their actions the only place they would be would be out of the house working there asses of to repay every cent spent on this case out of their own pockets.  The fraternity should be censured, if not outright thrown off of campus.


Karma +1.

Nobody else seems to agree with me on this. 

All the while I was saying, "But what's her story?"

And the answer was, "She ain't notin' but a ho.' "

In MY world, nobody "ain't nothin' but a ho.'"  She is a human being in a terribly distressed state.  She was born just as special and unique as anybody else, she has her character and her personality, she has hopes and dreams.  That's inherent in being a person.  Things went terribly awry along the way.  Not just for her, but for millions--such as those bawling frat boys.  The difference is they're being accorded victimhood and she is regarded as a villain.  I don't care that she was selling, for the Lacrosse boys to buy was the wrong thing to do. 

I know Jesse Jackson offered to pay her way through college.  Nice gesture, but it's not that simple. I wish there was a magic pill to solve the problems of people suffering bipolar disorder and drug addiction. But there isn't.  I have know both bipolar suffers and drug addicts.  Have no romantic delusions about the tractibility of these problems.

Multiple witnesses saw those boys cursing her out with racial slurs.  It's not as if they were gentleman in pursuit of a little clean gentleman's entertainment, like a model leaping out of a giant cake!
;D
Look--I remember being a horny college student all too well and when the stripper gets buck naked, you've got one thing on your mind.  Personally, I believe those boys at least attempted to assault her and she spun into a state of rage-fuled confusion. 

You can't find them guilty on suspicion, but just because they're legally innocent doesn't mean they're kind or decent people.

Perhaps "Moral Turpitude" does not appy. Community standards have hit rock bottom.  Beyond the law, this case was not about morality--it is about race and class. 

I've said before, I am more socially conservative than people think.  I can't say I'm in favor of In Loco Parentis coming back.  I personally don't endorse a return to 1950s sexual mores for they were also rife with excessive shame, guilt, repression and double standards.  However, in 20 years of watching the behavior of college students, I would say a great many of them are unable to handle the freedoms of post in loco parentis.
::)

We cannot know for sure what happened in the team captains' house on 3/13/06 because the accuser, Crystal Gail Magnum, has been diagnosed with multiple psychiatric disorders aggravated by concomitant drug abuse.  Though your feminist jurists would call it irrelevant, it did not bode well for Magnum that she was a stripper and a prostitute.
She's unfortunate to be going into court with a name nobody could take seriously - three names, one a champagne bottle, one a cheap amphetamine and one that blows...


Furthermore, prosecuter Mike Nifong did push the case beyond ethical standards of the legal profession in hopes of a victory to further his political career.  The defense should take the exoneration and shut their mouths.

Of all the things that piss me off in this sorry saga, this is probably the most annoying: a prosecutor who obviously doesn't give a **** about his client (having said that - is she actually his client, or is she simply a prop in his election grandstanding?) and what is best for her, and is quite happy for her to be publicly ripped to shreds by an unsympathetic press.


In MY world, nobody "ain't nothin' but a ho.'"

Amen to that, bro...

The worrying prognosis is that any bunch of frat boys will now think that abusing a woman is "fair play", especially if she's a prostitute with a drug habit.  The behaviour of these boys has been staggeringly crass and arrogant, so much so I find it hard to believe that they didn't abuse the woman simply because the comments (reported, and not denied - so I'm assuming they did come from the boys concerned) have never acknowledged her as a member of the human race.  And to scream about being "victimized" themselves... IMHO, they shouldn't have put themselves in that sort of position.

She's unfortunate to be going into court with a name nobody could take seriously - three names, one a champagne bottle, one a cheap amphetamine and one that blows...
Loretta Lynn's little sister "Crystal Gayle" became a country superstar in her own right.  You might remember her signature megahit from '77, "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue."  I don't know of Ms. Magnum's mom and pop made the connection.  About 10 years ago we had a basketball star at UMass named Winston Smith.  It's true.  And he was a big brother...sorry.


The worrying prognosis is that any bunch of frat boys will now think that abusing a woman is "fair play", especially if she's a prostitute with a drug habit.  The behaviour of these boys has been staggeringly crass and arrogant, so much so I find it hard to believe that they didn't abuse the woman simply because the comments (reported, and not denied - so I'm assuming they did come from the boys concerned) have never acknowledged her as a member of the human race.  And to scream about being "victimized" themselves... IMHO, they shouldn't have put themselves in that sort of position.

It always has been supreme hypocrisy in American culture: White man is entitled to Black woman anytime he wants.  Black man with White woman? Horror! Rage! Fear! Get me my shotgun!  That concept was the psychological weapon used in each and every anti-civil rights argument. It was rarely stated openly, but it was at the heart of it all. In Thomas Dixon's 1905 novel "The Clansman" (which was the principal source for DW Griffith's "Birth of a Nation"), the first noble act of the KKK in the was rescuing two White Southern belles from the ravaging hands of newly-freed Negroes!  The primal fear is still with us today. That's why I insist if roles were reversed, it would have been an entirely different story. 

I, once again, am beside myself.  The president of Duke University has apologized to the players!  I can not, repeat, can not stand it.  He apologizes to them for the way the University handled the situation.  Where is the apology from the players and the fraternity for that disgraceful "party" that they threw, and the subsequent video?  Incomprehensible

I, once again, am beside myself.  The president of Duke University has apologized to the players!  I can not, repeat, can not stand it.  He apologizes to them for the way the University handled the situation.  Where is the apology from the players and the fraternity for that disgraceful "party" that they threw, and the subsequent video?  Incomprehensible

Me too. Disgraceful is the word.  I wonder what the University president would say if that was his daughter.  Might as well change the name to David Duke University!
>:(

As a North Carolinian, this case hits close to home for me.  Basically, the stripper was looking for a few rich kids to race bait and make some money off of.

Durham is a city known for the income divide that correlates with the race divide.  The black community is poor, while Duke has a bunch of rich kids (most of whom are white).

While Durham seriously needs some help in dealing with the poverty it has, it doesn't excuse this obvious ploy of a case.  Mike Nifong was up for reelection as the D.A., and he knew an easy way to stay in office would be to appeal to the class envy of the black community.  Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed, and now, the kids have been exonerated, while that crazy stripper can enjoy being in debt with legal fees.

As a North Carolinian, this case hits close to home for me.  Basically, the stripper was looking for a few rich kids to race bait and make some money off of.





That does not excuse the frat boys for having a drunken orgy and hiring a stripper to come onto the campus, filming themselves acting absolutely disgracefully.  The party should never have happened, you cannot blame the stripper for the bad behavior of the "kids".

That does not excuse the frat boys for having a drunken orgy and hiring a stripper to come onto the campus, filming themselves acting absolutely disgracefully.  The party should never have happened, you cannot blame the stripper for the bad behavior of the "kids".


Let me put it this way.  No rape occurred, and filming a lecherous party isn't a crime.  Again, you can't legislate morality.  What you see as disgraceful is, quite frankly, the norm.

Let me put it this way.  No rape occurred, and filming a lecherous party isn't a crime.  Again, you can't legislate morality.  What you see as disgraceful is, quite frankly, the norm.


Let me put it this way.  The frat is sanctioned by the University.  For any sanctioned campus group to hold a mysoginistic, drunken, orgy and be filmed using racial slurs is more than grounds for the revocation of their charter and throwing them off of campus.  Disgraceful, yes, the norm for sanctioned campus clubs, no.

Let me put it this way.  The frat is sanctioned by the University.  For any sanctioned campus group to hold a mysoginistic, drunken, orgy and be filmed using racial slurs is more than grounds for the revocation of their charter and throwing them off of campus.  Disgraceful, yes, the norm for sanctioned campus clubs, no.


Very true, but being punished by the University is very different from being punished by the law.  Duke is a private organization, so they have the liberty to do what they want as a reaction to their behavior.

My response was regarding the law, not the University officials.

Very true, but being punished by the University is very different from being punished by the law.  Duke is a private organization, so they have the liberty to do what they want as a reaction to their behavior.

My response was regarding the law, not the University officials.


My response is toward the University President apologizing to the players.  There isn't much you could, or would, do legally, unless they wanted to dig deep for underage drinking or something like that.  In my mind, once the men were let off the parents would have done better to make them apologize for what went on at the party, and make them pay back for that year of school, instead they are chasing anyone and everyone to make them grovel at the feet of the little darlings.

My response is toward the University President apologizing to the players.  There isn't much you could, or would, do legally, unless they wanted to dig deep for underage drinking or something like that.  In my mind, once the men were let off the parents would have done better to make them apologize for what went on at the party, and make them pay back for that year of school, instead they are chasing anyone and everyone to make them grovel at the feet of the little darlings.


Well, to be fair, they did just go through about a year of being painted as rapists by a false accuser and a sensationalist media.  Unfortunately, in this society, you're guilty until proven innocent in many situations.  Just having the suspicion of rape thrown in your direction is enough to ruin many things in your life.  For example, these students lost many job offers and internship offers as a result of this witch hunt.

I'd say they've more than paid for whatever they did at that party.  To be honest, the biggest mistake they made was videotaping the party.  If they hadn't done that, this could've all been handled much more discretely.

Also, the media should be held liable for slandering these guys.

My response is toward the University President apologizing to the players.  There isn't much you could, or would, do legally, unless they wanted to dig deep for underage drinking or something like that.  In my mind, once the men were let off the parents would have done better to make them apologize for what went on at the party, and make them pay back for that year of school, instead they are chasing anyone and everyone to make them grovel at the feet of the little darlings.
So, you're saying that if someone accused your son of something like this and he went through a year of being called a rapist, being kicked out of school and losing possible future jobs because he was simply charged with a felony, you wouldn't want some sort of apology or anything?  Let's not forget that at least one of the accused LEFT the party before or shortly after it started.  If he was your son, you wouldn't want even an apology? 

So, you're saying that if someone accused your son of something like this and he went through a year of being called a rapist, being kicked out of school and losing possible future jobs because he was simply charged with a felony, you wouldn't want some sort of apology or anything?  Let's not forget that at least one of the accused LEFT the party before or shortly after it started.  If he was your son, you wouldn't want even an apology? 


If I had a son, I would teach him to respect women and that it is never OK to treat them like sex objects even if they appear to be asking for it.  Of course, the best laid schemes of mice and men often go awry, and Sonny might get himself to a piggish frat party with strippers.  In that case, I'd smack him silly even if he was 6' 4" and a big jock!
::)

How often do I have to say I don't believe Ms. Magnum had a legal case and that Mr. Nifong did conduct himself unethically?  However, the prosecution having no legal case does not mean the defense had any kind of rectitude to claim other than in a technical, legal sense. 

As Alan Dershowitz said to Klaus Von Bulow after they won the case: "Legally, this was a victory.  Morally, you're on your own"*

The University owes those little....dears...no apology whatsoever.  Did the school buy them the booze and the girls?  Did the schools say, "Hey, you know what you fellows need, a drunken orgy with a mentally ill drug addict?" 

As I would tell Ms. Magnum that when she stepped into that her freelance sex work might find her in a legal blindspot, I would also tell the lacrosse players they put their own futures at risk by partaking in risky, contemptible behavior.  Why is that the phrase "personal responsibility" applies only to the needy and disadvantaged?

The University need only say, "You boys dodged the bullet on this one, now don't pull this crap anymore."

If they took their party to a strip club they would never have been charged with a felony.  If they got out of line, the bouncers would have thrown them out.  Those guys didn't just want to see a woman take her clothes off, they hoped for something more when they invited strippers to their party.  Any heterosexual male with a libido knows this is true!

Duke's apology implies approval for their behavior.  It is OK to invite prostitutes to your party and get bombed.  One would think this is the last message a presigious university would want to send, but there it is.

*I'm quoting the "Reversal of Fortune" script here, I don't know if Dershowitz said so literally to Von Bulow. 

If I had a son, I would teach him to respect women and that it is never OK to treat them like sex objects even if they appear to be asking for it.  Of course, the best laid schemes of mice and men often go awry, and Sonny might get himself to a piggish frat party with strippers.  In that case, I'd smack him silly even if he was 6' 4" and a big jock!
::)

How often do I have to say I don't believe Ms. Magnum had a legal case and that Mr. Nifong did conduct himself unethically?  However, the prosecution having no legal case does not mean the defense had any kind of rectitude to claim other than in a technical, legal sense. 

As Alan Dershowitz said to Klaus Von Bulow after they won the case: "Legally, this was a victory.  Morally, you're on your own"*

The University owes those little....dears...no apology whatsoever.  Did the school buy them the booze and the girls?  Did the schools say, "Hey, you know what you fellows need, a drunken orgy with a mentally ill drug addict?" 

As I would tell Ms. Magnum that when she stepped into that her freelance sex work might find her in a legal blindspot, I would also tell the lacrosse players they put their own futures at risk by partaking in risky, contemptible behavior.  Why is that the phrase "personal responsibility" applies only to the needy and disadvantaged?

The University need only say, "You boys dodged the bullet on this one, now don't pull this crap anymore."

If they took their party to a strip club they would never have been charged with a felony.  If they got out of line, the bouncers would have thrown them out.  Those guys didn't just want to see a woman take her clothes off, they hoped for something more when they invited strippers to their party.  Any heterosexual male with a libido knows this is true!

Duke's apology implies approval for their behavior.  It is OK to invite prostitutes to your party and get bombed.  One would think this is the last message a presigious university would want to send, but there it is.

*I'm quoting the "Reversal of Fortune" script here, I don't know if Dershowitz said so literally to Von Bulow. 

So, I guess you're saying that you've never been to a strip club?  If so, you're the first guy I've ever met who hasn't.  These guys were doing what probably 90% (or more) of the male population has done at one time or another.  Just because they happen to be rich white boys does not mean that they deserve to be treated any differently than anyone else.  Common courtesy says that if you do something wrong to someone, you apologize.  I don't care if you're white, black, or whatever, you deserve an apology.  Especially the guy who left the party before it began or shortly thereafter...

If this had been a basketball or football team, would the school have cancelled the entire season?  Not on your life.  The apology was not only for the 3 charged, yes, most of it was, but the rest was for the entire team.  There have been quite a few cases where multiple members of a team have been charged with rape or a similar offense and the only ones punished were those accused of wrongdoing, not the entire team. 

So, I guess you're saying that you've never been to a strip club?  If so, you're the first guy I've ever met who hasn't.  These guys were doing what probably 90% (or more) of the male population has done at one time or another.  Just because they happen to be rich white boys does not mean that they deserve to be treated any differently than anyone else.  Common courtesy says that if you do something wrong to someone, you apologize.  I don't care if you're white, black, or whatever, you deserve an apology.  Especially the guy who left the party before it began or shortly thereafter...

If this had been a basketball or football team, would the school have cancelled the entire season?  Not on your life.  The apology was not only for the 3 charged, yes, most of it was, but the rest was for the entire team.  There have been quite a few cases where multiple members of a team have been charged with rape or a similar offense and the only ones punished were those accused of wrongdoing, not the entire team. 


Badaboom badabing...  You said it quite nicely.  :)

More than anything, the media should apologize to these guys.  It shows absolutely no journalistic integrity to parade the accused around the way they do.  People should not be punished for a crime they didn't commit, but that's exactly what happens to someone's reputation in this country when even a mere accusation occurs.

Most of the time, I'm in favor of the freedom of the press, but I think we've gone way too far in that direction and have completely neglected the right to privacy -- a right I would argue as even more important.

So, I guess you're saying that you've never been to a strip club?
I have.

These guys were doing what probably 90% (or more) of the male population has done at one time or another. 
This is not like going to a strip club, which is a controlled environment.  I would not attend a party of that nature.  I don't know what the percentage is, but I know it isn't 90+. 

Just because they happen to be rich white boys does not mean that they deserve to be treated any differently than anyone else.
Rich white boys do get treated differently from others.  If a crew of homeboys did this to a white Duke cheerleader, you can bet your bottom dollar this story would have taken a different tone in the press.  There would be rage from the rooftops. 

  Common courtesy says that if you do something wrong to someone, you apologize.  I don't care if you're white, black, or whatever, you deserve an apology. 
"Common courtesy"? What is this, Miss Manners?  Common courtesy was the farthest thing from the minds of all concerned here, including the victim.  I don't respect what the victime was doing with her life because she was slowly killing herself and visiting grief upon her family.  This young woman was sick and in pain.  Everything she was doing was making it worse for herself.  She might have put up a front as a schemiing tough chick, but people who do drugs do so to numb their pain.  The lacrosse boys saw her as nothing but a body for their pleasure.  They have been conditioned to believe it is OK to look at women as pieces of meat.  I only regret that this experience has probably not changed their misogynistic and racist attitudes.  Nobody should apologise to them.

If this had been a basketball or football team, would the school have cancelled the entire season?  Not on your life.  The apology was not only for the 3 charged, yes, most of it was, but the rest was for the entire team.  There have been quite a few cases where multiple members of a team have been charged with rape or a similar offense and the only ones punished were those accused of wrongdoing, not the entire team. 
You know who should apologise to the rest of the team?  Those three pricks should apologise to the rest of the team.  They set this chain of events in motion.  They were not innocent boy scouts framed.  They were immoral louts who got more than they bargained for.  They didn't "deserve" to have a sleazy prosecuter with no legal case trying to get them convicted of a felony, but it was the consequences of their actions.  If I drink a 5th of bourbon and hit the road, I could wind up entangled in a wreck of twisted steal as dead as Julius Caeser.  Did I "deserve" to die for my bad judgment.  No, but those are the consequences of my actions.

"Common courtesy"? What is this, Miss Manners?  Common courtesy was the farthest thing from the minds of all concerned here, including the victim.  I don't respect what the victime was doing with her life because she was slowly killing herself and visiting grief upon her family.  This young woman was sick and in pain.  Everything she was doing was making it worse for herself.  She might have put up a front as a schemiing tough chick, but people who do drugs do so to numb their pain.  The lacrosse boys saw her as nothing but a body for their pleasure.  They have been conditioned to believe it is OK to look at women as pieces of meat.  I only regret that this experience has probably not changed their misogynistic and racist attitudes.  Nobody should apologise to them.

Now wait just a minute.  The false accuser is the "victim?"  I think you've gotten your terms mixed up here.  I've read some material on the background of the accuser, and I realize she's led a troubled life, but falsely accusing some rich kids of rape doesn't somehow make you right.  The victims here are the falsely accused students.

You know who should apologise to the rest of the team?  Those three pricks should apologise to the rest of the team.  They set this chain of events in motion.  They were not innocent boy scouts framed.  They were immoral louts who got more than they bargained for.  They didn't "deserve" to have a sleazy prosecuter with no legal case trying to get them convicted of a felony, but it was the consequences of their actions.  If I drink a 5th of bourbon and hit the road, I could wind up entangled in a wreck of twisted steal as dead as Julius Caeser.  Did I "deserve" to die for my bad judgment.  No, but those are the consequences of my actions.



I'll agree that they were irresponsible and lacking class, but again, this kind of thing happens all the time.  If someone strips for a living, they aren't exactly someone with a Puritanical view on life and morals.  In fact, these kinds of parties aren't a big deal in places like the Netherlands, because they don't have such a stuckup view on things.  It may not fit what feminists consider moral, but if a girl strips for a living out of her own volition, then I'm not a pig for paying her to come to my party and do her thing.  If I happen to be drunk during the party and say some rude things, it's not a big deal.

In the end, the kids should've been smart enough not to videotape the party, and then, it would've just been a party...  that's it.  It's very easy for people to sit back and judge these kids, but it's freakin' college.  What do you expect?  If I had videotaped some of the parties I went to back then, I'm sure it would offend some people to watch them, but given the context of these things, it's really nothing of serious concern.

So, you're saying that if someone accused your son of something like this and he went through a year of being called a rapist, being kicked out of school and losing possible future jobs because he was simply charged with a felony, you wouldn't want some sort of apology or anything?  Let's not forget that at least one of the accused LEFT the party before or shortly after it started.  If he was your son, you wouldn't want even an apology? 


No.  I am saying that I would stand by my son through out the whole thing and do everything possible to help him out of this.  At the same time I would not expect an apology because once I saw that video and learned about how this whole thing came about I would be beside myself that a son of mine would be involved in the disgraceful scene going on there.  What was going on was disgusting, and believe me I have lived my life and seen some things, what was going on there crossed the line.  If he were my son I would not expect an apology from the University, far from it.  Bearing in mind that being the parent I am paying thousands upon thousands for his education, I would expect him to leave the fraternity, go back to school(whether it be that or another), get a job(nothing wrong with working and school, many of us did/do it), and be prepared to pay me back some of the fees incured.  Oh, and if any of you have daughters, remember that party when you send them off to college, for "kids" of that ilk their attitude towards the strippers on the tape extends in some form to all women.

No.  I am saying that I would stand by my son through out the whole thing and do everything possible to help him out of this.  At the same time I would not expect an apology because once I saw that video and learned about how this whole thing came about I would be beside myself that a son of mine would be involved in the disgraceful scene going on there.  What was going on was disgusting, and believe me I have lived my life and seen some things, what was going on there crossed the line.  If he were my son I would not expect an apology from the University, far from it.  Bearing in mind that being the parent I am paying thousands upon thousands for his education, I would expect him to leave the fraternity, go back to school(whether it be that or another), get a job(nothing wrong with working and school, many of us did/do it), and be prepared to pay me back some of the fees incured.  Oh, and if any of you have daughters, remember that party when you send them off to college, for "kids" of that ilk their attitude towards the strippers on the tape extends in some form to all women.
And, if your son was the one who wasn't even there for a large majority (if not all) of the party, accused of rape and kicked out of school? 
I haven't seen the video so I can't say what actually did or did not happen.  I have seen videos of bachelor and bachelorette parties and the "dancers" do some pretty disgusting things.  In almost every one I've seen or attended, it was the "dancer" who initiated the "acts."

I have.

This is not like going to a strip club, which is a controlled environment.  I would not attend a party of that nature.  I don't know what the percentage is, but I know it isn't 90+.  I'd be willing to bet it is over 50.  I've seen some pretty raunchy bachelor and bachelorette parties....

Rich white boys do get treated differently from others.  If a crew of homeboys did this to a white Duke cheerleader, you can bet your bottom dollar this story would have taken a different tone in the press.  There would be rage from the rooftops.  You're right.  If these were "homeboys," you can bet your bottom dollar that there would be outrage.  Especially after it came out that the "victim" was lying.  If the "homeboys" were kicked out of school for just being accused, then it would be a race issue and the entire black population would be in an uproar.  Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton would be there screaming the loudest, demanding apologies from everyone and their mother, and I'm sure the number would be right around $30 million if not more.  Heck, JJ sued for $35 million for the "Decatur 7" and it was proven that they were guilty.


"Common courtesy"? What is this, Miss Manners?  Common courtesy was the farthest thing from the minds of all concerned here, including the victim.  I don't respect what the victime was doing with her life because she was slowly killing herself and visiting grief upon her family.  This young woman was sick and in pain.  Everything she was doing was making it worse for herself.  She might have put up a front as a schemiing tough chick, but people who do drugs do so to numb their pain.  The lacrosse boys saw her as nothing but a body for their pleasure.  They have been conditioned to believe it is OK to look at women as pieces of meat.  I only regret that this experience has probably not changed their misogynistic and racist attitudes.  Nobody should apologise to them.
You know who should apologise to the rest of the team?  Those three pricks should apologise to the rest of the team.  They set this chain of events in motion.  They were not innocent boy scouts framed.  They were immoral louts who got more than they bargained for.  They didn't "deserve" to have a sleazy prosecuter with no legal case trying to get them convicted of a felony, but it was the consequences of their actions.  If I drink a 5th of bourbon and hit the road, I could wind up entangled in a wreck of twisted steal as dead as Julius Caeser.  Did I "deserve" to die for my bad judgment.  No, but those are the consequences of my actions.


The difference between your scenario and what happened is that what you described is against the law.  Being a pig and having a raunchy party with strippers isn't.  Let's not forget that these weren't the only guys there, they were just the ones lucky enough to be picked by the accuser. 

As I said before, if these had been black athletes, most of those screaming against an apology would be screaming for one.  These guys were almost as maliciously prosecuted as the Jena 6, the difference being that the Jena 6 were actually guilty of a crime, and look at the outrage and call for apologies and retribution for them. 

My bottom line is regardless of the color of their skin, for a school to kick someone out just because they are being accused of a crime is wrong and I think the school should apologize.  AFA the $30 million, no way.....the only part of their lawsuit that I find appealing is the call for reform.  Other than that, it's ridiculous.

And, if your son was the one who wasn't even there for a large majority (if not all) of the party, accused of rape and kicked out of school? 
I haven't seen the video so I can't say what actually did or did not happen.  I have seen videos of bachelor and bachelorette parties and the "dancers" do some pretty disgusting things.  In almost every one I've seen or attended, it was the "dancer" who initiated the "acts."I'd be willing to bet it is over 50.  I've seen some pretty raunchy bachelor and bachelorette parties.




The problem, once again, is that this took place on a college campus, at a college sanctioned club.  It has no place whatsoever there.  Yes, dancers get raunchy and do disgusting things, but the shouldn't be doing them on a college campus, and once it was established that the frat had paid for this kind of service they should have been at the very least censured, I say the least.

You may not think that they should have these kinds of parties, but they will continue to do so.  Most of the time, the students are smart enough not to videotape them.

Again, it's college...  What do you expect to happen?

Again, it's college...  What do you expect to happen?


Studying?

Yeah, that too...  lol...  But seriously, Animal House really isn't that far from the reality of many campuses.  Even a school like Duke has a considerable party life.

Again, it's college...  What do you expect to happen?


Gotta love those high standards!
:-\\

Ms. Magnum was a victim of her own behavior.  She also got dealt a terrible hand in life, so has anybody who is hooked on drugs and working in the sex industry.  She was not just "dancing" she was working as a prostitute and going to hotels with strange men for drug money.  She was at high risk for a violent death.  Not all who who get dealt the kind of hand she did go the same road she did.  However, no little girl says, "I want to be a drug addict and a prostitute when I grow up."  Therein lies the tragedy. 

There would be no investment banking internship for Ms. Magnum!

What we send out into the universe always returns to us.  You reap what you sow.  When those clods decided it was a good idea to invite Ms. Magnum and friends over for a sex party, they sowed the seeds of their own destruction.  Little boys ain't supposed to play with matches 'coz they might get burned.  For the umpty-umpth time, what Magnum and Nifong did was wrong; however, these kiddos were most likely raised on Jenna Jameson videos and hadn't the foggiest what street-level sex workers are really like.  Now they know...or do they?
::)

I do agree, now that you point it out, that if the roles were reversed--if a white woman claimed she had been raped by three black men and lied about it--Jesse, Al, and all that lot would be on the case quicker than you can say Jack Robinson, yes indeedy, no argument there.  Of course, for most of North Carolina's history, all a white lady had to do was make the accusation and the accused would be lynched at sundown with a branch reserved for any rabble-rouser who'd like to b*tch about it!
:o

The problem, once again, is that this took place on a college campus, at a college sanctioned club.  It has no place whatsoever there.  Yes, dancers get raunchy and do disgusting things, but the shouldn't be doing them on a college campus, and once it was established that the frat had paid for this kind of service they should have been at the very least censured, I say the least.
IF what you said was correct, I might agree.  However, this did not occur on campus, they were not members of a fraternity, nor did the team pay for it.  This was a private house off campus that was being rented by a few of the lacrosse players, who paid for the "entertainment" themselves.

Er... so what exactly was the College apologising for?  "We're sorry that we had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this"???

Er... so what exactly was the College apologising for?  "We're sorry that we had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this"???


They were sorry that they cancelled the season over a false accusation of rape.

What we send out into the universe always returns to us.  You reap what you sow.  When those clods decided it was a good idea to invite Ms. Magnum and friends over for a sex party, they sowed the seeds of their own destruction.  Little boys ain't supposed to play with matches 'coz they might get burned.  For the umpty-umpth time, what Magnum and Nifong did was wrong; however, these kiddos were most likely raised on Jenna Jameson videos and hadn't the foggiest what street-level sex workers are really like.  Now they know...or do they?

Agreed...  Now they know to hire only high-price escorts (and preferably white ones, so there's no chance of anyone playing the race card).  They also know that videotaping their parties is a bad idea.

I do agree, now that you point it out, that if the roles were reversed--if a white woman claimed she had been raped by three black men and lied about it--Jesse, Al, and all that lot would be on the case quicker than you can say Jack Robinson, yes indeedy, no argument there.  Of course, for most of North Carolina's history, all a white lady had to do was make the accusation and the accused would be lynched at sundown with a branch reserved for any rabble-rouser who'd like to b*tch about it!
:o



True...  but it's not just NC that had this problem (and still has it to a degree).  Some of the worst race riots of the Civil Rights Movement happened in Boston and Detroit.

True...  but it's not just NC that had this problem (and still has it to a degree).  Some of the worst race riots of the Civil Rights Movement happened in Boston and Detroit.



The riots in Boston couldn't be considered the worst, but racism is alive and well in the "cradle of liberty"

The riots in Boston couldn't be considered the worst, but racism is alive and well in the "cradle of liberty"


Well, Selma is the most infamous locale for race riots for good reasons, but I'd still say Boston ranks up there given the city's reaction to desegregation busing in 1974.

http://www.umass.edu/legal/Hilbink/lpscf03/bostonflag.jpg

The riots in Boston couldn't be considered the worst, but racism is alive and well in the "cradle of liberty"


I'm too young remember them personally, but the anti-bussing riots in Boston were pretty hair-raising, I've learned.  I forgot the name of the bar, but there was this one bar where the drunk-before-noon crowd liked to hang out.  They would yell catcalls at the cops at the nearby bus stop.  They'd scream profanity and threats; they'd peg rocks and bottles at the constabulary, cruisers, and horses.  The cops--many of whom were against bussing but had to enforce the law--finally had enough.  One day the cops marched into the bar, slammed down their badges, and proceeded to kick the living sh*t out of all those drunks.  They quieted down after the cops made their opinion known!

Bussing is still the best example of of a well-intentioned liberal program gone horribly wrong!
::)

Busing desegregation was necessary though, as was school integration overall.  Affirmative action was necessary as well.

The problem is that 30 to 40 years have passed (depending on the area and programs) and most of these things seem outdated now.  Affirmative action should be based on class, regardless of race.  Public schooling is probably best transitioned to privatization in many areas.

Busing desegregation was necessary though, as was school integration overall.  Affirmative action was necessary as well.

The problem is that 30 to 40 years have passed (depending on the area and programs) and most of these things seem outdated now.  Affirmative action should be based on class, regardless of race.  Public schooling is probably best transitioned to privatization in many areas.



I will agree on the updating of affirmative action to encompass class, but the issue of public schools going private is a dicey one.




Bussing is still the best example of of a well-intentioned liberal program gone horribly wrong!
::)



I will agree with you on that.  I think that it had to happen in some form, but the way it was done was a disaster.  But, my cynical self says that being Boston they probably set it up as best they could to make it as hard as it was so they could hold up their hands and say "see". 

I will agree on the updating of affirmative action to encompass class, but the issue of public schools going private is a dicey one.

I will agree with you on that.  I think that it had to happen in some form, but the way it was done was a disaster.  But, my cynical self says that being Boston they probably set it up as best they could to make it as hard as it was so they could hold up their hands and say "see". 


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7a/100469_28_42.jpg/250px-100469_28_42.jpg
"You know where I stand."

Not sure, actually, which circle of hell is that again, Lou?
:P

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7a/100469_28_42.jpg/250px-100469_28_42.jpg
"You know where I stand."

Not sure, actually, which circle of hell is that again, Lou?
:P


Way back when, I worked in "Probation Central File".  It is where you go for a copy of your criminal record, Louise Day came in to get a copy of her sons' who I heard had a pretty extensive one. 

Way back when, I worked in "Probation Central File".  It is where you go for a copy of your criminal record, Louise Day came in to get a copy of her sons' who I heard had a pretty extensive one. 

I'm surprised the kid didn't turn into Norman Bates.  Imagine bringing home a date to meet that? 
8-P

She probably paddled him 'till he was 17 and grounded him on prom night.  Mom hates competition.  Or so it would seem...


Anyway, I owed you one for Sheriff Rainey!
;)