http://www.latimes.com/media/alternatethumbnails/photo/2006-03/22614192.jpg


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest26mar26,0,3771225.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Wow.  That was swift.

I wonder as the backlash against illegal immigration strengthens, if we are going to see more of this type of thing.  I hope it doesn't cause civil unrest in the Southwest.

Hundresds of L.A.-area High School students also staged walkouts.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest25mar25,0,3312471.story?coll=la-headlines-california

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest26mar26,0,3771225.story?coll=la-home-headlines


A few thoughts:

1. Why instantly use the highest estimate?  It doesn't matter if it was 10 people, 200,000, 500,000, 1,000,000 or all 12 million of the estimated illegal immigrants in this country, we have a rule of law, not mob rule.

2. People serving in elected office are not swayed by those who cannot vote.

3. The silent majority is on the side of border security, no amnesty and no services for illegal immigrants.  Poll after poll shows this, also see California's prop. 187 or Arizona's prop. 200.

4. No immigration legislation will pass, regardless of whichever side whines and protests.  The senate is simply too liberal on immigration and the house of representatives too conservative.  In December of 2005 the house of representatives passed a tough bill that will never pass the senate as is, and the house of representatives will never pass a senate bill which will probably include an amnesty.  We're in almost certainly going to maintain the status quo.

5. It almost doesn't matter to me what the quisling federal government does, my state just passed tough immigration laws.  The Georgia state house and the Georgia state senate passed a bill that will punish people who hire illegals severly, deny healthcare and social services/welfare to illegals and tax illegal immigrant's wire transfers (which is how illegals send money back to their family/freinds in their country.)  The bill has too be voted on one last time in the state senate (on the changes the state house made, charging a 5% tax on wire transfers for people who cannot prove citizenship) but it's already done that easily once, so it's a done-deal.

6. While not all illegal immigrants are hispanic (case in point the march in New York City on St. Patricks' day this year where about 50,000 people were holding signs that read 'legalize the Irish') there are plenty of hispanics (all legal) that are strongly opposed to illegal immigration.  They see illegal immigrants walking across the border or over-staying their visa and aren't too pleased after they went through all the effort to do it right.  See legal Mexican immigrant.  This is also the man who sued businesses that hired illegals under RICO statutes, is on an advisory board that seeks to make English the official language of the United States and said: "my people - as I'm often accused of turning my back on them - my people are American. I've got an American flag hanging in my office, not the Mexican chicken-and-worm or whatever it is..."  Read the columns he has written on immigration here.

6. I'm still convinced a certain somebody is a member of La Raza.

GWB, did you read the whole article?  Not all of the people there were even immigrants.  And of the immigrants there, there were both illegals and legals.

And who do you think is a member of La Raza?

I think with the huge discontent over illegal immigration, that legislation is still going to get passed.

What are they complaining about, they are here illegally. What right do they think they have to stay?

What are they complaining about, they are here illegally. What right do they think they have to stay?


Well, some of them have raised families here.  And a lot of European immigrants in the 1800s were undocumented.  Do you know where the term "wop" comes from?  Without papers.

And after going to High School with someone whose parents came here illegally, I can say that guy was as American as anyone I know.  Having actually known "illegals" its hard for me to say they should just all be booted out, no exceptions.

GWB, did you read the whole article?  Not all of the people there were even immigrants.  And of the immigrants there, there were both illegals and legals.

And who do you think is a member of La Raza?


I read it.  There were both legal and illegal, and no-doubt if you took the illegal ones out, the numbers would be a lot less impressive.  And I can't say the name specifically, that is probably against the rules.

I think with the huge discontent over illegal immigration, that legislation is still going to get passed.

We'll see.  But my thinking is it's an election year and the republicans need to pander to the business community and the democrats need to pander to the hispanic community.  Plus the house of representatives and the senate are just too different on this issue.

What are they complaining about, they are here illegally. What right do they think they have to stay?

It's a hoot, isn't it?  I wonder what would happen if I went to Mexico, Ireland, Brazil or any of these other countries where we have a lot of illegals from and demanded that they pay for my child's education, pay for healthcare with taxpayer dollars and in countries like Mexico, speak English.  They'd laugh before they deported me.

Having actually known "illegals" its hard for me to say they should just all be booted out, no exceptions.


Hardly anyone says that, it's unrealistic.  But it's not to build a fence along the US-Mexico border and add more border patrol agents to both borders, like the bill that passed the house in December of 2005 does.

Secure the borders fully, and then we'll talk about a "guest worker plan."  They are seperate issues and should be debated in seperate bills.

And after going to High School with someone whose parents came here illegally, I can say that guy was as American as anyone I know.  Having actually known "illegals" its hard for me to say they should just all be booted out, no exceptions.


No they shouldn't all just be booted out, but I do think the government needs to do a better job at controling the amount of them that are getting in. How much use is this new legislation though if they aren't even enforcing the current legislation?

It's a hoot, isn't it?  I wonder what would happen if I went to Mexico, Ireland, Brazil or any of these other countries where we have a lot of illegals from and demanded that they pay for my child's education, pay for healthcare with taxpayer dollars and in countries like Mexico, speak English.  They'd laugh before they deported me.


EXACTLY!

Why should my tax dollars go to making sure that Juan can go to school?
I'm gonna clarify my point on this clearly for anybody who might be wondering..

"I DON'T GIVE A SHIIT HOW BAD YOUR COUNTRY WAS, MAKE IT BETTER, DON'T MAKE OURS WORSE!"

EXACTLY!

Why should my tax dollars go to making sure that Juan can go to school?
I'm gonna clarify my point on this clearly for anybody who might be wondering..

"I DON'T GIVE A SHIIT HOW BAD YOUR COUNTRY WAS, MAKE IT BETTER, DON'T MAKE OURS WORSE!"


Yeah, but this country was made great by people coming here from countries that were at the time at least- crappy. That includes Irish, Italian etc.  MANY of which were undocumented. Wop=without papers.

Yeah, but this country was made great by people coming here from countries that were at the time at least- crappy. That includes Irish, Italian etc.  MANY of which were undocumented. Wop=without papers.


That's all well and good, this country was also founded by Slave Owners.. can I own a slave?

That's all well and good, this country was also founded by Slave Owners.. can I own a slave?


I don't think that's a valid comparison.

I don't think that's a valid comparison.


That's why I used it. I didn't think yours was a valid comparison. There were millions of immigrants to the United States when it was still a young country in the midst of the largest known expansion in modern history, this is no longer the case.

That's why I used it. I didn't think yours was a valid comparison. There were millions of immigrants to the United States when it was still a young country in the midst of the largest known expansion in modern history, this is no longer the case.


Why shouldn't there be a second expansion?  Western European immigrants have long since settled in to America.  Why is it a bad thing to add Latin American and Asian culture into the tapestry of America which already has European(English, Irish, German, Italian..), African and Native American influences?  I don't think the new immigration is all bad at all.

Besides birth rates are declining among native non-Hispanic whites.  I think taking in these new immigrants over the last few decades will actually give America more longevity in the long run; we won't age as fast.

And people wonder why I am glad to be out of LA.

Personally, I could not give a damn about illegal aliens.  We have had so damned many "amnesty" programs over the last 3 decades, I see absolutely no reason why anybody should be here illegally.

I say either get yourself legal status, or get out.  Plain and simple.

And like GW said, they are not citizens.  In fact, the US gives non-citizens (and even non-residents) more "rights" then most other countries in the world.

If they do not like how things are run here, go home.

Or if they want, they can go through the legal process, and become citizens.  That way, they will have every legal right that I do, and every other US Citizen (other then run for President).

Why shouldn't there be a second expansion?  Western European immigrants have long since settled in to America.  Why is it a bad thing to add Latin American and Asian culture into the tapestry of America which already has European(English, Irish, German, Italian..), African and Native American influences?  I don't think the new immigration is all bad at all.

Besides birth rates are declining among native non-Hispanic whites.  I think taking in these new immigrants over the last few decades will actually give America more longevity in the long run; we won't age as fast.


You obviously didn't read what I said.

During the mass immigration periods America was going through huge growth spurts (so to put it).
America isn't now.

There were thousands of new jobs being created, vast quantities of resources. The asian immigration to the west coast was a enormous blessing due to the need for workers. Now this isn't the case.
Sure Juan can find a job flipping burgers or something, but there is somebody else equally qualified in the ranks of the unemployed that could be doing that job.

The whole "these immigrants are taking away jobs" thing dosen't apply to the people that are saying it. Well educated middle class folk, those jobs aren't under threat. However, some fella living downtown who works at jack in the box, you're damn right his job is under threat. Give it to him before some immigrant.

Why shouldn't there be a second expansion?  Western European immigrants have long since settled in to America.  Why is it a bad thing to add Latin American and Asian culture into the tapestry of America which already has European(English, Irish, German, Italian..), African and Native American influences?  I don't think the new immigration is all bad at all.

Besides birth rates are declining among native non-Hispanic whites.  I think taking in these new immigrants over the last few decades will actually give America more longevity in the long run; we won't age as fast.


The problem is that the SW US states (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California) are already drowning under a wave of illegal immigration.  In fact, several years ago the demographics in California shifted, and being Caucasin is now a minority.

California over the last 20 years has fallen into the hands of special interest groups, and it is most often a case of "Mob Rule" then democracy.  And to be honest, protests like this are held all the freaking time.  One of the reasons I left is that I got sick and tired of being caught in the "Protest March Of The Week".

I say either get yourself legal status, or get out.  Plain and simple.



That's ridiculous to think you can expect people who have been here for years or perhaps even decades and who have raised kids here to just go back. These kids are just as American as anyone else's.  To expect them to go to their parents' country now is unreasonable.

Yes, they should get legal status.  Through amnesty.  We're never going to get them out, I guarantee.  What we need to do is give amnesty for the ones here and do what we should have been doing all along to keep illegal immigration down in the future. 



You obviously didn't read what I said.

During the mass immigration periods America was going through huge growth spurts (so to put it).
America isn't now.

There were thousands of new jobs being created, vast quantities of resources. The asian immigration to the west coast was a enormous blessing due to the need for workers. Now this isn't the case.
Sure Juan can find a job flipping burgers or something, but there is somebody else equally qualified in the ranks of the unemployed that could be doing that job.

The whole "these immigrants are taking away jobs" thing dosen't apply to the people that are saying it. Well educated middle class folk, those jobs aren't under threat. However, some fella living downtown who works at jack in the box, you're damn right his job is under threat. Give it to him before some immigrant.



I'm not pro-illegal immigration, but I'm most definitely pro-legal immigration.  I think those types of jobs should definitely be given to immigrant.  We don't need to be encouraging native born Americans to take these kind of jobs do we?  I thought we already had a problem in this country with our workforce falling behind educationally.  We should be encouraging them to move further up the ladder.


The problem is that the SW US states (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California) are already drowning under a wave of illegal immigration.  In fact, several years ago the demographics in California shifted, and being Caucasin is now a minority.

California over the last 20 years has fallen into the hands of special interest groups, and it is most often a case of "Mob Rule" then democracy.  And to be honest, protests like this are held all the freaking time.  One of the reasons I left is that I got sick and tired of being caught in the "Protest March Of The Week".


I've lived in Texas my entire life.  That includes South Houston, btw(one of the heaviest Hispanic areas in the country besides East L.A.).  I hardly think Texas is "Drowning" under illegal immigration.  And you seem to imply Caucasians becoming a minority is inherently bad.  Why?  I felt very comfortable living in South Houston.  I went to high school with a lot of Hispanic people, my step sister is Hispanic, and so is my older brother's wife and in-laws.  I don't see why other white people are so uncomfortable. 

And it's not just the economic aspect.  Some people won't admit it, but what bothers them more than anything is just the cultural aspect. And that is xenophobia, IMO.  That's one thing I love about my speaking Spanish, it p!sses these people off so badly.

I thought we already had a problem in this country with our workforce falling behind educationally.  We should be encouraging them to move further up the ladder.


By taking away their income.. smart.

By taking away their income.. smart.


Or how about making it easier to go to college?  Don't let Bush's rhetoric fool you either.  I saw a special about hard it is to actually get a scholarship. 

I think we could also encourage more people to go to trade schools.  Lots of great ways to make living without necessarily getting a degree, but counselors seem to want to drive it into kid's heads that they have to get a degree, period.

Or how about making it easier to go to college?  Don't let Bush's rhetoric fool you either.  I saw a special about hard it is to actually get a scholarship. 


The whole point of a college education is to limit who can get them, the whole idea is that it narrows the playing field.. sooo everyone has their degree, then you need a Phd to flip burgers  ???

Personally, I could not give a damn about illegal aliens.  We have had so damned many "amnesty" programs over the last 3 decades, I see absolutely no reason why anybody should be here illegally.


This is what I've always thought.  America had an amnesty in the 1960's after we were told our system was broken.  Fast forward about twenty years.  In 1986 we had another amnesty because we were told our system and borders were broke.  Fast forward again twenty years.  McCain, Kennedy, Kolbe, Graham, Brownback and a few others, and to some extent Bush, are telling us our system is broke and we need a "guest worker plan," which a fancy term for amnesty.  Why should I believe it will be any different this time around?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein

The problem is with an amnesty, teeth must be applied.  Not some lame fee, but real teeth to those who break our laws after the amnesty.  That is why the others failed, the laws written along with them that were the teeth weren't enforced.  Again, why would this time it be any different?

This is what I've always thought.  America had an amnesty in the 1960's after we were told our system was broken.  Fast forward about twenty years.  In 1986 we had another amnesty because we were told our system and borders were broke.  Fast forward again twenty years.  McCain, Kennedy, Kolbe, Graham, Brownback and a few others, and to some extent Bush, are telling us our system is broke and we need a "guest worker plan," which a fancy term for amnesty.  Why should I believe it will be any different this time around?

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." -Albert Einstein

The problem is with an amnesty, teeth must be applied.  Not some lame fee, but real teeth to those who break our laws after the amnesty.  That is why the others failed, the laws written along with them that were the teeth weren't enforced.  Again, why would this time it be any different?


Well, sadly GWB, there is no proof it won't.  But it's still not realistic or even right to kick all 12 million out.  I don't think there's much choice but to try it again.  It just has to have "teeth" this time, as you said.

That's ridiculous to think you can expect people who have been here for years or perhaps even decades and who have raised kids here to just go back. These kids are just as American as anyone else's.  To expect them to go to their parents' country now is unreasonable.


Notice, I said "Get legal or get out".  I have no use for people that will not make a commitment.  Either you choose to take a full and legal part in the "American Life", or you choose not to.  If you choose not to, the exit is right over there  ---->


I don't see why other white people are so uncomfortable. 

And it's not just the economic aspect.  Some people won't admit it, but what bothers them more than anything is just the cultural aspect. And that is xenophobia, IMO.  That's one thing I love about my speaking Spanish, it p!sses these people off so badly.


And trust me, I am far from paranoid.  And I am not uncomfortable.  I simply have no use for people who spend years in this country, knowingly illegal.  No more then I have for any other form of criminal.

Now I have a question, how many in here that are going on and on about how we need to loosen border restrictions and immigration laws are also saying in another forum that we should Impeach the President?  I know that I am seeing some familiar faces.  And some of the accusations there is that "He is not doing enough to keep the borders safe".

OK, so we either tighten up the borders and throw out all illegal aliens, or we just open them up, run constant amnesty programs, and don't worry about it.

People, you can't have it both ways.  If anybody in here is saying that the US is being to hard on them, then you really have no right to be saying that we are not doing enough to tighten the borders.  That is plain hypocritical.

Don't get me wrong- because I support amnesty does not mean I think we should leave our borders unprotected.  I am pro immigration, but it should be legal.  We need to bring the illegal ones here into the fold of things, and do what we need to to keep more out.  Legal immigration should continue and be encouraged though IMO.

And I didn't necessarily mean you or anything with the "uncomfortable culturally" thing, Mushroom.  I don't think you're that way.  But there really are a lot who feel that way, IMO..

But it's still not realistic or even right to kick all 12 million out.  I don't think there's much choice but to try it again.  It just has to have "teeth" this time, as you said.


See, we can agree (at least somewhat.)  I've already said it's not realistic to deport an estimated twelve million illegals, but I don't think a blanket amnesty is right either.

How about this, we start a program in which illegals go back to there homeland and file for a green card? And there they are not put in the front of the line.  This is detailed in the Cornyn-Kyl immigration bill.  This establishes a better kind of guest worker plan, and after a set number of years, illegals must go home and stay or re-apply.  Also we build a fence and expand the number of border patrol agents and detention centers and end the "catch-and-release" policy.  That is detailed in the Tancredo immigration bill, which also establishes a smaller guest worker plan.

I'd like a combination of the Tancredo bill, the Cornyn-Kyl bill and the Frist bill (which expands the number of immigrants we allow in legally.)  The McCain-Kennedy bill is a scam though, and I hope the house of representatives put it too rest, fast.

I have no problem with immigration.  I feel that anyone who wants to come to our country to seek a better life should be able to.  However, I have a serious problem with illegal immigration.  I look at it like this; would you go into someone's home without having been invited?  The answer is no, you wouldn't.  Therefore, if you want to come to this country, do so the way tens of millions have before you:  Legally.

I have no problem with immigration.  I feel that anyone who wants to come to our country to seek a better life should be able to.  However, I have a serious problem with illegal immigration.  I look at it like this; would you go into someone's home without having been invited?  The answer is no, you wouldn't.  Therefore, if you want to come to this country, do so the way tens of millions have before you:  Legally.


Actually, "Illegal Immigration" has become the modern version of "Squatters Rights".

100+ years ago, somebody could take over your land, if you did not protest that they were taking it over.  It was called "Squatting".  This was normally a problem of rich land-ownsers though, so nobody really cared.  Even George Washington lost hundreds of acres to squatters.

Today, the same concept is used for "Illegal Alien Rights".  Myself, I never understood the concept of somebody who was illegal having rights.  It is kinda like the rights a bank robber has.  They have the right to surrender to the police, and they have the right to remain silent.  If they break these, then they can be shot, or convicted because of their own big mouths.  I never shed any tears when either of those 2 outcomes happened.

See, we can agree (at least somewhat.)  I've already said it's not realistic to deport an estimated twelve million illegals, but I don't think a blanket amnesty is right either.

How about this, we start a program in which illegals go back to there homeland and file for a green card? And there they are not put in the front of the line.  This is detailed in the Cornyn-Kyl immigration bill.  This establishes a better kind of guest worker plan, and after a set number of years, illegals must go home and stay or re-apply.  Also we build a fence and expand the number of border patrol agents and detention centers and end the "catch-and-release" policy.  That is detailed in the Tancredo immigration bill, which also establishes a smaller guest worker plan.

I'd like a combination of the Tancredo bill, the Cornyn-Kyl bill and the Frist bill (which expands the number of immigrants we allow in legally.)  The McCain-Kennedy bill is a scam though, and I hope the house of representatives put it too rest, fast.


I think I can support that, unless ending the catch and release policy means sending people to prison for years.  Our prisons are crowded anyway.. There has to be an alternative in that regard.


Actually, "Illegal Immigration" has become the modern version of "Squatters Rights".

100+ years ago, somebody could take over your land, if you did not protest that they were taking it over.  It was called "Squatting".  This was normally a problem of rich land-ownsers though, so nobody really cared.  Even George Washington lost hundreds of acres to squatters.

Today, the same concept is used for "Illegal Alien Rights".  Myself, I never understood the concept of somebody who was illegal having rights.  It is kinda like the rights a bank robber has.  They have the right to surrender to the police, and they have the right to remain silent.  If they break these, then they can be shot, or convicted because of their own big mouths.  I never shed any tears when either of those 2 outcomes happened.


Heh, my old man just got out of the joint in February for Bank Robbery.

I have no problem with immigration.  I feel that anyone who wants to come to our country to seek a better life should be able to.  However, I have a serious problem with illegal immigration.  I look at it like this; would you go into someone's home without having been invited?  The answer is no, you wouldn't.  Therefore, if you want to come to this country, do so the way tens of millions have before you:  Legally.



I agree if you want to come here you should do it illegally, not just sneak across the border. There's nothing wrong with immigration, but if you want to come here do it the legal way.

I agree if you want to come here you should do it illegally, not just sneak across the border. There's nothing wrong with immigration, but if you want to come here do it the legal way.


Illegal immigration isn't "right", but,  right and wrong is subjective.  If you're a young Mexican, and you know you have the oppurtunity for a better life, who's to say you wouldn't take it?  No matter the risk.  Legal immigration is a very hard process to get through, there is a lot of red tape.  There are many who try coming here "properly".

President's Radio Address
March 25, 2006

http://www.whitheouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060325.html

THE PRESIDENT: Good morning. On Monday, I will attend a naturalization ceremony here in Washington. It's always inspiring to watch a group of immigrants raise their hands and swear an oath to become citizens of the United States of America. These men and women follow in the footsteps of millions who've come to our shores seeking liberty and opportunity, and America is better off for their hard work and love of freedom.

America is a nation of immigrants, and we're also a nation of laws. And our immigration laws are in need of reform. So at Monday's ceremony, I will discuss my vision for comprehensive immigration reform that will secure our borders, improve enforcement of our immigration laws, and uphold our values.

Comprehensive immigration reform begins with securing our borders. Since I took office, we've increased funding for border security by 66 percent, and the Department of Homeland Security has caught and sent home nearly 6 million illegal immigrants. To improve security at the border, we're hiring thousands more Border Patrol agents. We're deploying new technology, like infrared cameras and unmanned aerial vehicles, to help our agents do their job. And we're installing physical barriers to entry, like fences in urban areas.

We're also working to end the unwise practice of catch-and-release. For decades, many illegal immigrants were released back into society soon after they were caught, because we did not have enough detention space. So we're adding more beds so we can hold the people we catch, and we're reducing the time it takes to send them back home. When illegal immigrants know they will be caught and sent home, they will be less likely to break the rules, and our immigration system will be more orderly and secure. We're making good progress, but we have much more work ahead, and we will not be satisfied until we have control of our border.

Comprehensive immigration reform also includes strengthening the enforcement of our laws in America's interior. Since I took office, we've increased funding for immigration enforcement by 42 percent. We're increasing the number of immigration enforcement agents and criminal investigators, enhancing work site enforcement, and going after smugglers and gang members and human traffickers.

Finally, comprehensive immigration reform requires a temporary worker program that will relieve pressure on our borders. This program would create a legal way to match willing foreign workers with willing American employers to fill jobs that Americans will not do. By reducing the number of people trying to sneak across the border, we would free up our law enforcement officers to focus on criminals and drug dealers and terrorists and others who mean us harm.

One thing the temporary worker program would not do is provide amnesty to those who are in our country illegally. I believe that granting amnesty would be unfair, because it would allow those who break the law to jump ahead of people who play by the rules and wait in the citizenship line. Amnesty would also be unwise, because it would encourage waves of illegal immigration, increase pressure on the border, and make it more difficult for law enforcement to focus on those who mean us harm. For the sake of justice and for the sake of border security, I firmly oppose amnesty.

In the coming days, the United States Senate plans to consider proposals on immigration reform. This is an emotional debate. America does not have to choose between being a welcoming society and being a lawful society. We can be both at the same time. As we debate the immigration issue, we must remember there are hard-working individuals, doing jobs that Americans will not do, who are contributing to the economic vitality of our country.

To keep the promise of America, we must enforce the laws of America. We must also ensure that immigrants assimilate into our society and learn our customs and values -- including the English language. By working together, we can meet our duty to fix our immigration system and deliver a bill that protects our country, upholds our laws, and makes our Nation proud.

Thank you for listening.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think we need to stop all the illegal immigration, it's getting ridiculous. Our economy right now cannot support this invasion of illegals who will take jobs for any amount of money, and validate the corporate bastards keeping so many Americans on welfare. Sure, they aren't great jobs, but plenty of CITIZEN Americans of all races and creeds are willing to take them. I think in order to reorient this country towards its tax-paying citizens we need to try and get rid of alot of the illegals who won't immediately apply for citizenship, and I honestly think we should get up to the standard of other countries and take legal action against alot of these illegal immigrants...I mean, for god's sakes, it's a security risk and they have no right to be here! I'm the great-grandchild of immigrants who came over legally via Ellis Island, opened candy stores and such, and sent their kids to Ivy League Universities, some of them without ever fully giving up Yiddish. And they came here legally, made an effort to assimilate, etc. Also, illegal immigration gives these countries, like Mexico, an excuse to not improve and better themselves so they can find opportunities there, and siphon off their extra population growth on us.

One thing that upsets me is that there are hundreds of illegals living in a state park in Jersey, while American citizens in places like Newark remain unemployed, with illegals taking their jobs. In order to squelch the corporate greed that causes this, we need to cut off the supply of illegals now, before our country is permanently ruined.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think we need to stop all the illegal immigration, it's getting ridiculous. Our economy right now cannot support this invasion of illegals who will take jobs for any amount of money, and validate the corporate bastards keeping so many Americans on welfare. Sure, they aren't great jobs, but plenty of CITIZEN Americans of all races and creeds are willing to take them. I think in order to reorient this country towards its tax-paying citizens we need to try and get rid of alot of the illegals who won't immediately apply for citizenship, and I honestly think we should get up to the standard of other countries and take legal action against alot of these illegal immigrants...I mean, for god's sakes, it's a security risk and they have no right to be here! I'm the great-grandchild of immigrants who came over legally via Ellis Island, opened candy stores and such, and sent their kids to Ivy League Universities, some of them without ever fully giving up Yiddish. And they came here legally, made an effort to assimilate, etc. Also, illegal immigration gives these countries, like Mexico, an excuse to not improve and better themselves so they can find opportunities there, and siphon off their extra population growth on us.

One thing that upsets me is that there are hundreds of illegals living in a state park in Jersey, while American citizens in places like Newark remain unemployed, with illegals taking their jobs. In order to squelch the corporate greed that causes this, we need to cut off the supply of illegals now, before our country is permanently ruined.


This was the point I was trying to make.

Whilst we still have millions unemployed in this country we should be spending the millions of dollars that go on Juan and Juanita on educating those who aren't contributing but are at least a part of our society.

This was the point I was trying to make.

Whilst we still have millions unemployed in this country we should be spending the millions of dollars that go on Juan and Juanita on educating those who aren't contributing but are at least a part of our society.


Yeah, and they get to strain our public schools system. Somebody detail to me the implications of this new bill...

What right do they think they have to stay?


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I hope they hold more rallies!

Somebody detail to me the implications of this new bill...


It adds more border patrol agents, funding for new equipment and technology to secure the border, adds more detention centers, makes being an illegal immigrant a felony, makes aiding illegal immigrants punishable by law, cracks down on companies that knowingly hire illegals and builds a wall along the entire US-Mexico border.

That is HR-4437, the bill that passed the house of representatives in December of 2005 and is now one of the immigration bills being considered in the senate.

I'm sorry to say this


Don't be sorry. Illegal immigrants should just piss off (the same over here). It's nothing to do with racism, or not caring about poverty. They are just free-loaders. I think the government is too soft on illegal immigrants/refugees who don't have a good reason to come.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think we need to stop all the illegal immigration, it's getting ridiculous. Our economy right now cannot support this invasion of illegals who will take jobs for any amount of money, and validate the corporate bastards keeping so many Americans on welfare. Sure, they aren't great jobs, but plenty of CITIZEN Americans of all races and creeds are willing to take them. I think in order to reorient this country towards its tax-paying citizens we need to try and get rid of alot of the illegals who won't immediately apply for citizenship, and I honestly think we should get up to the standard of other countries and take legal action against alot of these illegal immigrants....


How about taking action against the corporations who knowingly hire illegals, pay them less then minimum wage.  How about censuring them, instead of all the have-nots beating each other up over a meatless bone.

How about taking action against the corporations who knowingly hire illegals, pay them less then minimum wage.  How about censuring them, instead of all the have-nots beating each other up over a meatless bone.


Crack down on companies that hire illegals and end all welfare to illegals, the source as it's called, and illegal immigration will dry up very fast.

Crack down on companies that hire illegals and end all welfare to illegals, the source as it's called, and illegal immigration will dry up very fast.


Yes.  Regular unannounced walk throughs in a garment district factory, or through the fields at midday checking papers would be safer, saner, and more effective than a bunch of yahoos with shotguns playing commando on the border. 

Crack down on companies that hire illegals and end all welfare to illegals, the source as it's called, and illegal immigration will dry up very fast.


I totally agree with this.

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I hope they hold more rallies!


True patriots! hehehehe..

That's all well and good, this country was also founded by Slave Owners.. can I own a slave?


According to some reports, a goodly number of people STILL DO.  Not technically of course, and they are mostly illegal hispanic women inticed to come here with false promises.  If you really want to close the flood gates, go after those who exploit the illegals.  If they couldnt find work, they wouldn't come.

How about taking action against the corporations who knowingly hire illegals, pay them less then minimum wage.  How about censuring them, instead of all the have-nots beating each other up over a meatless bone.


Most corporations do not hire illegals.  It simply does not make sense, with the huge fines and penalties if you get caught.

And in most of those cases, the aliens presented fraudulent paperwork in the first place.  And employers are not allowed to question the paperwork presented to them.

If they get a Social Security card and drivers license belonging to Saul Abraham Cohn, they have no right to question if the Mexican guy who can't speak English is really him or not.  In fact, employers have been sued for trying to investigate the legality of prospective employees in the past.

Then they are fined and sued again when it turns out that "Saul Cohn" was really some illegal from Columbia.

If you want paperwork, it is easy as heck to get in LA.  In fact, I can take you to places where you can get all the paperwork you need for $250.  You can walk in one side Margarita Codina, and walk out the other side Mary Smith.  And like I said, it is against the law for employers to question the legality of the paperwork presented to them.

Don't be sorry. Illegal immigrants should just piss off (the same over here). It's nothing to do with racism, or not caring about poverty. They are just free-loaders. I think the government is too soft on illegal immigrants/refugees who don't have a good reason to come.


Know what you speak of before you open your mouth.  What they are doing might not be legal, but to call them freeloaders is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  They are alot more hardworking than most Americans.

Most corporations do not hire illegals.  It simply does not make sense, with the huge fines and penalties if you get caught.

And in most of those cases, the aliens presented fraudulent paperwork in the first place.  And employers are not allowed to question the paperwork presented to them.

If they get a Social Security card and drivers license belonging to Saul Abraham Cohn, they have no right to question if the Mexican guy who can't speak English is really him or not.  In fact, employers have been sued for trying to investigate the legality of prospective employees in the past.

Then they are fined and sued again when it turns out that "Saul Cohn" was really some illegal from Columbia.

If you want paperwork, it is easy as heck to get in LA.  In fact, I can take you to places where you can get all the paperwork you need for $250.  You can walk in one side Margarita Codina, and walk out the other side Mary Smith.  And like I said, it is against the law for employers to question the legality of the paperwork presented to them.


I really don't care if the people are working here legally or not.  I care more about places that knowingly hire illegals, pay them next to nothing, and exploit them, and in doing so they exploit all American workers.  Since there are approximately 11 million illegals and many of them work in menial positions such as the garment industry and crop picking you can believe a lot of it is going on and being overlooked, pay day is for payoff.

Know what you speak of before you open your mouth.  What they are doing might not be legal, but to call them freeloaders is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  They are alot more hardworking than most Americans.


Well, the system of illegal immigration is corrupt and exploitative, and is f*cking up the economy of legal Americans, hard-working middle-class Americans, and it gives their home countries a stupid excuse to keep being cesspools of poverty.

Well, the system of illegal immigration is corrupt and exploitative, and is f*cking up the economy of legal Americans, hard-working middle-class Americans, and it gives their home countries a stupid excuse to keep being cesspools of poverty.


That has no relevance to what I'm saying.  You can't argue that they aren't hard-working people.

Illegal immigration hurts the American economy.  That is true.  But when you try to make some sort of personal judgement on illegals because of that, you are wrong IMO. Do you expect them to stay in Mexico and suffer with less oppurtunities and no future so the American working man who already had it ten times better doesn't suffer? 

I'm not arguing that makes illegal immigration right.  But its not right to blame the illegals themselves.  The WTO, Mexican government, American government, and employers here in the United States are all more at fault IMO.

Wow.  That was swift.

I wonder as the backlash against illegal immigration strengthens, if we are going to see more of this type of thing.  I hope it doesn't cause civil unrest in the Southwest.


it may

And people wonder why I am glad to be out of LA.

Personally, I could not give a damn about illegal aliens.  We have had so damned many "amnesty" programs over the last 3 decades, I see absolutely no reason why anybody should be here illegally.

I say either get yourself legal status, or get out.  Plain and simple.

And like GW said, they are not citizens.  In fact, the US gives non-citizens (and even non-residents) more "rights" then most other countries in the world.

If they do not like how things are run here, go home.

Or if they want, they can go through the legal process, and become citizens.  That way, they will have every legal right that I do, and every other US Citizen (other then run for President).


yet you've admitted to marrying an illegal alien, in essence, giving her your own "amnesty program". can you say, "contradiction?"

The problem is that the SW US states (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, California) are already drowning under a wave of illegal immigration.  In fact, several years ago the demographics in California shifted, and being Caucasin is now a minority.



although caucasions are no longer themajority in California, caucasians are still the plurality.

I'm sorry to say this, but I think we need to stop all the illegal immigration, it's getting ridiculous. Our economy right now cannot support this invasion of illegals who will take jobs for any amount of money, and validate the corporate bastards keeping so many Americans on welfare. Sure, they aren't great jobs, but plenty of CITIZEN Americans of all races and creeds are willing to take them. I think in order to reorient this country towards its tax-paying citizens we need to try and get rid of alot of the illegals who won't immediately apply for citizenship, and I honestly think we should get up to the standard of other countries and take legal action against alot of these illegal immigrants...I mean, for god's sakes, it's a security risk and they have no right to be here! I'm the great-grandchild of immigrants who came over legally via Ellis Island, opened candy stores and such, and sent their kids to Ivy League Universities, some of them without ever fully giving up Yiddish. And they came here legally, made an effort to assimilate, etc. Also, illegal immigration gives these countries, like Mexico, an excuse to not improve and better themselves so they can find opportunities there, and siphon off their extra population growth on us.

One thing that upsets me is that there are hundreds of illegals living in a state park in Jersey, while American citizens in places like Newark remain unemployed, with illegals taking their jobs. In order to squelch the corporate greed that causes this, we need to cut off the supply of illegals now, before our country is permanently ruined.


I hope you realize the irony that the same was said about your Jewish ancestors when they first arrived.

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I hope they hold more rallies!


image 2 WAS NOT from Saturday's demonstration. it's been circulating all over the Internet for about 2 years now.

and yes I hope there are more demonstrations too

one of the promoters of saturday's demo was RYAN SEACREST! YOU GO BOY!!!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/natalieeshaya/RANDOM%20PICS/IMG_0218.jpg

yet you've admitted to marrying an illegal alien, in essence, giving her your own "amnesty program". can you say, "contradiction?"


Yes, when I got married, my wife was illegal.  However, my situation was slightly different.

For one, she entered the country legally, she overstayed her visa however.  And in addition, neither she nor I knew she was illegal.  In fact, it was not discovered until weeks before we got married.  While we were getting the paperwork together, she continually pressured her father to give her her passport, birth certificate, and everything else she woudl need.  After weeks of his resisting, she finally broke into his strong box and discovered the truth: they they had overstayed their 6 month visitor visas by 5 years.

Her family fled Argentina during the "dirty wars", and her father hid their citizenship status.  He got both of his daughters illegal Social Security cards and other things needed to work.  And she did not even need me to change her status, because her daughter was born in the US.

Ironically, when we started to take the legal actions nessicary to make her "legal", it was faster and easier to have her use one of the amnesty programs then it was to use our marriage.  And while her paperwork was being processed, her mother and sister did the same thing.  Neither of them knew of the situation with their visas either.

Hope I'm not being a repeater pencil here, but this "illegal immigration" is not a Democrat/Republican issue, it is a corporatist issue. However, the Republican constituents benefit more from illegal immigration than do Democrat constuents. You have working class Republicans (ie. people with their heads up their dupas) and you have posh Dems who hire nannies and gardeners, so there is some interest on both sides. The votes issue is pretty much moot. The illegal immigrant voting bloc is inconsequential.
The entities that benefit most from illegal immigration are corporations. They help drive wages down.  The new word for this is "insourcing." The legislators beating the drum for immigration reform are full of hot air. They have to make it look like they're addressing the problem. However, no matter what law gets passed, illegal immigration is not going away.
Don't get me wrong. I support rights for so-called "illegals." They are human beings. Corporations are not human beings. I have much more in common with a Mexican busboy named Juan than I do with Dick Cheney.  Furthermore, a Mexican busboy named Juan pays taxes to the U.S. treasury. Dick Cheney and his pals rob the U.S. treasury blind day in and day out. If anybody should be deported it is the bloodsucking government-contracting corporate executives and the bloodsucking legislators who do their dirty work on Capitol Hill.

MY COUNTRY IS THE INTERNATIONAL PROLETARIAT.

I watched George Stephanopoulos and I got wierded out.  George Will is on the side of the illegals.  :o  His thought is let them in and
make them legal. 

I still think the illegals don't get they're not Americans...they're just not Americans and they have no legal right to be here.

I still think the illegals don't get they're not Americans...they're just not Americans and they have no legal right to be here.


I would say they are more than well aware ot that.

I would say they are more than well aware ot that.


Listening to some of their quotes, it doesn't seem that way. They act like jumping the border qualifies them as Americans.

Just jumping the border doesn't, but I'd say working here for years, raising a family here, and paying money to the S.S.A. does.

Just jumping the border doesn't, but I'd say working here for years, raising a family here, and paying money to the S.S.A. does.


No.. being an American means being a citizen of this country.

No.. being an American means being a citizen of this country.



There's more to it then that.  If you're being technical about it you could say that, but there is more to being an American than that.  I've known several people who are the children of illegal immigrants, and they are just as American as anyone.

Our illegal immigration "problem" as concerns Latin Americans is a direct result of oppressive American imperialism in Latin America going back two centuries. Sorry Sean Hannity fans, that's the way it is.
8)

There's more to it then that.  If you're being technical about it you could say that, but there is more to being an American than that.  I've known several people who are the children of illegal immigrants, and they are just as American as anyone.


That matters not I'm afraid. We live in a society of law and as such technical definitions apply.

Illegal Immigrants have no right to be here.
This is fact.

There's more to it then that.  If you're being technical about it you could say that, but there is more to being an American than that.  I've known several people who are the children of illegal immigrants, and they are just as American as anyone.

That's why the bigots want to rescind the right of citizenship to the children of immigrants.  Oh, they will say "illegal aliens," but what they really mean is immigrants, specifically immigrants who are not white. If we deny citizenship to some people born on U.S. soil and grant it to others we divide Americans in a nasty way...but that's what the rightwing is all about.  On the other hand, George Will (no leftie he) did say deporting all illegal aliens is totally unrealistic, and it is.  What Will did not say is that the whole "illegal alien" affair is just a red herring to distract the country from the total mess this administration has made of everything else it has touched.

That's why the bigots want to rescind the right of citizenship to the children of immigrants.  Oh, they will say "illegal aliens," but what they really mean is immigrants, specifically immigrants who are not white. If we deny citizenship to some people born on U.S. soil and grant it to others we divide Americans in a nasty way...but that's what the rightwing is all about.  On the other hand, George Will (no leftie he) did say deporting all illegal aliens is totally unrealistic, and it is.  What Will did not say is that the whole "illegal alien" affair is just a red herring to distract the country from the total mess this administration has made of everything else it has touched.


I agree, Maxwell.  And I'm with you.  I feel like I have more in common with Juan from Guadalajara then with Bush or any of the people he serves.  Hell, I grew up around them in the construction business.  I'm pretty far from being WASP.

Anyway,


That matters not I'm afraid. We live in a society of law and as such technical definitions apply.

Illegal Immigrants have no right to be here.
This is fact.


That includes a lot of your own ancestors, amigo.


While I don't think illegal immigration is a good thing, I feel people who think illegals are the enemy of the American working man are being sorely, sorely duped. Workers need more unity not just within this country, but internationally.  If they did so countries like Mexico would have much better working conditions than they do now.  Not as many people would want to come here in the first place then.

I agree, Maxwell.  And I'm with you.  I feel like I have more in common with Juan from Guadalajara then with Bush or any of the people he serves.  Hell, I grew up around them in the construction business.  I'm pretty far from being WASP.

Anyway,

That includes a lot of your own ancestors, amigo.


While I don't think illegal immigration is a good thing, I feel people who think illegals are the enemy of the American working man are being sorely, sorely duped. Workers need more unity not just within this country, but internationally.  If they did so countries like Mexico would have much better working conditions than they do now.  Not as many people would want to come here in the first place then.

Thanks, Dude.  And, yes, it all comes back to WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
If you don't like illegal immigration, tell your government to get out of the empire business.
::)

That includes a lot of your own ancestors, amigo.


I explained this before. Yes, this country was started by immigrants and immigration has been great for this country. At times when we've experienced large growth immigration has been vital.
We are currently struggling out of a recession and you want to tell me that we just need more immigrant labor doing jobs that anybody with 2 hands could do.. no amigo, that isn't the right idea.

No.. being an American means being a citizen of this country.




To some extent, you have a point.

Right.  I'm an American because I was born here.  My friends parents, though born in Denmark are Americans because they're naturalized citizens.  Unless you can prove you're a citizen of this country, I don't believe you can call yourself an American and expect to be afforded the same rights and privileges that we are.


And that's what they want.
Juan wants the exact same rights and prvileges as everyone else.
The lefties would have us cave in to them as well.
'Awwww look, he's hungry, let's cut him a check'
'Ooohh, let's raise taxes again!!'  ;D

And that's what they want.
Juan wants the exact same rights and prvileges as everyone else.
The lefties would have us cave in to them as well.
'Awwww look, he's hungry, let's cut him a check'
'Ooohh, let's raise taxes again!!'  ;D

Th'ell you crowin' about? If you did a day's work that most so-called "illegals" do, you'd be so sore you couldn't get outta bed the next morning.  I am sick and tired of know-nothing-type Americans portraying immigrants as a bunch of layabouts looking for a hand-out. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>:(

Th'ell you crowin' about? If you did a day's work that most so-called "illegals" do, you'd be so sore you couldn't get outta bed the next morning.  I am sick and tired of know-nothing-type Americans portraying immigrants as a bunch of layabouts looking for a hand-out. Nothing could be further from the truth.
>:(


To be honest, I could care less if they work hard or don't work, they still shouldn't be here.
Most of the jobs they do contribute to the underground economy and in some cases are in fact illegal.

Just jumping the border doesn't, but I'd say working here for years, raising a family here, and paying money to the S.S.A. does.


Then get citizenship.

pix!!! the guy with the gay power flag rules!!!!

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=101949

To be honest, I could care less if they work hard or don't work, they still shouldn't be here.
Most of the jobs they do contribute to the underground economy and in some cases are in fact illegal.

The underground economy is owned and operated by American citizens, whether the immigrant in question is working for a corporation or a criminal enterprise (not that there's any practical difference these days).  I just wonder if you REALLY think the podium-pounding Republicans calling for a crackdown are actually goning to do something to solve the problem. Believe you me, they ain't!

I explained this before. Yes, this country was started by immigrants and immigration has been great for this country. At times when we've experienced large growth immigration has been vital.
We are currently struggling out of a recession and you want to tell me that we just need more immigrant labor doing jobs that anybody with 2 hands could do.. no amigo, that isn't the right idea.



Yeah, my ancestors came over at a time when we were rapidly expanding and industrializing. Now, we're in a recession and we keep taking in massive numbers of immigrants we have no reason to take...and it's bad for them, if all these discontented people stayed in their countries maybe real change would happen in their governments and societies.

Yeah, my ancestors came over at a time when we were rapidly expanding and industrializing. Now, we're in a recession and we keep taking in massive numbers of immigrants we have no reason to take...and it's bad for them, if all these discontented people stayed in their countries maybe real change would happen in their governments and societies.

Well, duh, whenever the people elect a guy they want, one who will fight for their interests and NOT the interests of international capital, the CIA goes down there and blows him away! So that's why I said if you don't like illegal immigration, tell your government to get out of the empire business. Sheesh!
:D

Well, duh, whenever the people elect a guy they want, one who will fight for their interests and NOT the interests of international capital, the CIA goes down there and blows him away! So that's why I said if you don't like illegal immigration, tell your government to get out of the empire business. Sheesh!
:D


Can't I do both?

To be honest, I could care less if they work hard or don't work, they still shouldn't be here.
Most of the jobs they do contribute to the underground economy and in some cases are in fact illegal.


Here's a little secret I'll let you in on.  Over 90% of the people in the residential construction business do not pay taxes.

Well, duh, whenever the people elect a guy they want, one who will fight for their interests and NOT the interests of international capital, the CIA goes down there and blows him away! So that's why I said if you don't like illegal immigration, tell your government to get out of the empire business. Sheesh!
:D


Exactly.  We have to get rid of the cause, and part of the cause is corporate imperialism.  If it wasn't for these multinational corporations perhaps worker's rights and conditions would be alot better.


Then get citizenship.


Oh I agree that they should get citizenship, but it's a very difficult process(although not as hard as getting permanate residency I believe).  And right now, if you're an illegal, I don't really think you can GET citizenship, which is part of the problem.  Although many are virtually undeportable because their children are citizens. 

Not only do we need to address the issue of worker's rights better on the international stage, but we also need better border security, a way to bring those who are already here 'out of the cold' so to speak, AND our immigration system needs reform as well.

And does anyone honestly think the U.S. COULD kick all 12 million people out?  Ha!  You might as well set Southern California ablaze, because that's what will happen if they try to do that.  And what makes people think only the illegals will get p!ssed?  I'd get pretty angry if I was an American citizen of Mexican descent.  The Southwest could possibly become like Northern Ireland. :o

This kind of fits...

Volunteers by Jefferson Airplane

Look what

Here's a little secret I'll let you in on.  Over 90% of the people in the residential construction business do not pay taxes.


In Jersey, it's controlled by the Italian mob. No surprises there! And the residential construction business has stakes in things like strip clubs.

Yes, we should prosecute those who hire illegal aliens to the fullest extent of the law.  How about we start with this joker?

http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060327-123033-1230r

;D

Yes, we should prosecute those who hire illegal aliens to the fullest extent of the law.  How about we start with this joker?

http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060327-123033-1230r

;D


;D  Reading this, it appears to be an accident.  I kinda doubt he hires these people himself, anyway.

;D  Reading this, it appears to be an accident.  I kinda doubt he hires these people himself, anyway.


I know.  And that is exactly my point.

People often seem to get all bent out of shape, saying that people who hire illegals (or who have them work for them) should be crucified.

However, I live in the real world.  The world where the illegals frequently have paperwork that appears legal.  Or who are self employed (or contractors), where no paperwork is needed.  I understand that fact, and have no problem, as long as things are corrected when they are discovered.

But this just goes to show that anybody can get caught up in the hiring of an illegal alien, even a former President.

I know.  And that is exactly my point.

People often seem to get all bent out of shape, saying that people who hire illegals (or who have them work for them) should be crucified.

However, I live in the real world.  The world where the illegals frequently have paperwork that appears legal.  Or who are self employed (or contractors), where no paperwork is needed.  I understand that fact, and have no problem, as long as things are corrected when they are discovered.

But this just goes to show that anybody can get caught up in the hiring of an illegal alien, even a former President.


Good point.  I can't argue with that..

I guess what we need to do is come up with more efficient ways for employers to be able to identify who they are hiring. If they can come up with ways to fight counterfeit money, can't they do the same for these types of documents?

Good point.  I can't argue with that..

I guess what we need to do is come up with more efficient ways for employers to be able to identify who they are hiring. If they can come up with ways to fight counterfeit money, can't they do the same for these types of documents?


The problem is that they can't verify.  It is against the law.

About 8 years ago, there was a company in California that tried to do just that.  They discovered several people who applied to work there (and some who already worked there) who had fraudulent paperwork.  They promptly fired them.

Then they were sued.  It seems that doing that is some form of discrimination, since you would never ask something like that from somebody who was born and raised in the US.  Verifying paperwork is discriminatory to immigrants.  And yes, the company was fined for firing illegal aliens, and refuseing to hire illegal immigrants.

Talk about a catch-22!

The problem is that they can't verify.  It is against the law.

About 8 years ago, there was a company in California that tried to do just that.  They discovered several people who applied to work there (and some who already worked there) who had fraudulent paperwork.  They promptly fired them.

Then they were sued.  It seems that doing that is some form of discrimination, since you would never ask something like that from somebody who was born and raised in the US.  Verifying paperwork is discriminatory to immigrants.  And yes, the company was fined for firing illegal aliens, and refuseing to hire illegal immigrants.

Talk about a catch-22!


Well then some changes need to be made to the law.  Requiring paperwork from immigrants is just common sense. 

Sweeping immigration proposal goes to governor
The Associated Press
03/28/2006

ATLANTA - The Georgia House gave final approval Tuesday to a sweeping bill that would deny some state services to adults living in the U.S. illegally, sending what would be some of the nation's toughest immigration rules to the governor.

The move, which passed by a 119-49 vote, came after the state's labor chief warned that the compromise brokered between House and Senate lawmakers may create a sort of amnesty for some undocumented workers.

The bill would verify that adults seeking many state-administered benefits _ like non-emergency medical care and unemployment checks _ are in the country legally. It would also sanction employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, punishing them through the tax code.

In the compromise, lawmakers dropped a section that would have tacked on a 5 percent fee to wire transfers by people who could not prove they were in the country legally. Instead, they added a requirement that 6 percent of wages should be withheld from workers who can't provide a taxpayer identification number.

The proposal, which was approved by the Senate Monday, will now be sent to Gov. Sonny Perdue. If it is signed into law, Georgia will be the among the first U.S. states with legislation tackling such a broad range of immigration issues, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.

Critics warned Tuesday that late changes to the bill could have grave unintended consequences.

When lawmakers stripped the bill of its requirement to verify the immigration status of current workers at companies with taxpayer contracts, they effectively granted state amnesty to undocumented workers who might now be employed, said Michael Thurmond, the state's labor commissioner.

Under the bill that passed Tuesday, only new hires would be checked using the federal verification system _ not current employees.

That portion of the law would not take effect until July 2007, leaving time for many new immigrants to get on the payroll before the tough new checks take effect, Thurmond said.

"We should work to protect employers who play by the rules," he said. "That's my concern _ to create a level playing field."

State Sen. Chip Rogers, R-Woodstock, said that the federal program being used to check immigration status could only be used on new hires.

"If he (Thurmond) believes this is allowing amnesty I would encourage him to begin auditing employers and enforce the law," Rogers said.

It's the latest tiff over the immigration proposal that Republican lawmakers put at the top of their agenda before the start of the session.

During the committee process, lobbyists from the farm and business lobbies fought to push back the bill's start dates. As a result, some provisions don't take effect until July 2007 while others have been delayed as late as 2009.

Some see that as an attempt to give federal lawmakers a chance to pass comprehensive legislation.

When throngs of immigrants rallied against the proposal during a "day of dignity" last week at the Capitol, state Sen. Sam Zamarripa told the crowd that the later start date could give the federal government the chance to take action.

"We want the people to come out of the shadows," said Zamarripa, D-Atlanta. "We want you to have rights."

The U.S. Senate this week is grappling with new federal immigration policies that have prompted thousands of people in cities around the U.S. to protest the bill.

In the state House, some critics urged lawmakers to hold off the vote until federal lawmakers act. State Rep. Mary Margaret Oliver, D-Decatur, said if Congress does act, much of the state's proposal could become moot.

Rogers, though, said it is too soon to say how the federal bill under consideration by the U.S. Senate will affect Georgia's proposed law.

He added that was "illogical" to expect that immigration legislation passed on the federal level would stem the tide of illegal immigrants.

"It is proper for the state of Georgia to take steps to deal with the issue here, regardless of what is happening (in Washington)," he said.

Link

--With the quisling federal government, it's now up to the states.

The next with legislation like this is New York, and then other NE states where people are miffed off at the swarms of illegal immigrants hanging around on the streets, many of them homeless and living in parks.

if you want to come to this country, do so the way tens of millions have before you:  Legally.


People make it seem like it's so easy for a dirt-poor Mexican to get into this country "legally." I know Mexicans who are here on visas and such, and guess what... rich! I asked my English student (from Mexico, here legally because her mom's a doctor) what she thought about the poverty situation in her country... and I got the most unconcerned bimbo answer of my life ("huh? Oh, yeah... ummm... bad?"). "Legal" immigration is not and never has been a feasible option for poor people. So it's either break the laws of a foreign country, or let your family starve.... which would you do?

I realise that our economy can't sustain the entire impoverished population of Mexico, nor should it have to, but I wish people would get off their high American horses and stop acting like these people are scum and like they're better than these people just because they happened to be born into a society that could take care of them sufficiently. I'd like to see how any of you would cope with that kind of do-or-die survival circumstance. It's easy to shout criticisms from the top of the mountain.

My ancestors were poor, and they came here legally.  In fact, I had family flee the Nazis when they occupied Denmark, and they left with nothing more than a suitcase and the clothes on their backs, but they came here legally. 

People make it seem like it's so easy for a dirt-poor Mexican to get into this country "legally." I know Mexicans who are here on visas and such, and guess what... rich! I asked my English student (from Mexico, here legally because her mom's a doctor) what she thought about the poverty situation in her country... and I got the most unconcerned bimbo answer of my life ("huh? Oh, yeah... ummm... bad?"). "Legal" immigration is not and never has been a feasible option for poor people. So it's either break the laws of a foreign country, or let your family starve.... which would you do?

I realise that our economy can't sustain the entire impoverished population of Mexico, nor should it have to, but I wish people would get off their high American horses and stop acting like these people are scum and like they're better than these people just because they happened to be born into a society that could take care of them sufficiently. I'd like to see how any of you would cope with that kind of do-or-die survival circumstance. It's easy to shout criticisms from the top of the mountain.



It's not just Mexico, it's also Canada, Southeast Asia, Latin America, the Caribbean Islands...Mexico gets the brunt of the venom because they seem to have the most immigrants, legal or otherwise.  You can tell because at least in California, the Hispanic population has ballooned from 10% to 30+% in the past couple decades. 

I don't condone illegal immigration, because it took my family and I forever to go through the proper channels to get our visas, resident alien IDs, and finally full citizenship, and I don't think these people should be allowed to bypass those channels just because they were poorer than I.  My family was poor once, too, but through hard work and sacrifice, they were able to improve their situation before coming to America.  I understand it is not as simple for many immigrants, but I would hope that the powers that be would propose an incentive for "disadvantaged" prospects to do so legally.

Illegal immigrants are not scum, they just broke the law getting here.  At least with the Mexican population in the area I am in, you can tell that they are hard-working, otherwise law-abiding people who will take the jobs that, truthfully, most legal citizens would not.  I don't think the immigration process should necessarily be eased, but like I said, perhaps we need some kind of incentive program to stop dangerous and illegal immigration tactics.

In this day and age, we are going to have to be more prudent as to who is allowed into the country...even along the Canadian border.

Actually, there are plenty of white illegals (largely from the former Yugoslavia, Poland, Ireland, Portugal, Russia and Ukraine, probably Israel and other Mideastern countries) but they get waay less attention.

And yes, my family is descended from immigrants, but they came legally. They came via Ellis Island c. 1900 from Ukraine, Lithuania, and Poland, and worked extremely hard and assimilated, for better or for worse. They tried to become citizens and become a part of society-legally.

Yes, we should prosecute those who hire illegal aliens to the fullest extent of the law.  How about we start with this joker?

http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20060327-123033-1230r

;D


under the SenselessBitcher(HR4437) Bill, ALL illegals, and EVERYONE who "assist them, will be felons!!!

Guess what-- 'Shroom, your wife's a FELON!!!!
...and for marrying and illegal, you're a felon too!!!
...and the children of such a union would be the progeny of felons!!!

To be honest, I could care less if they work hard or don't work, they still shouldn't be here.
Most of the jobs they do contribute to the underground economy and in some cases are in fact illegal.

I've just been reading this whole thread, and THAT is wrong!
Immigrants bust their asses for 10 or 12 hours a day doing things you wouldn't consider doing.
And they do it for minimum wage.
Illegal? Underground? Who do think picked the farking oranges and pears you eat?

under the SenselessBitcher(HR4437) Bill, ALL illegals, and EVERYONE who "assist them, will be felons!!!

Guess what-- 'Shroom, your wife's a FELON!!!!
...and for marrying and illegal, you're a felon too!!!
...and the children of such a union would be the progeny of felons!!!


Ex post facto.

Ex post facto.


the SenselessBitcher Bill (HR 4437) is so-o-o senseless I wouldn't be surprised if they would make it retroactive.

the SenselessBitcher Bill (HR 4437) is so-o-o senseless I wouldn't be surprised if they would make it retroactive.


Perhaps I should explain.

Article I, Section 9, the third rule:

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

As in it would be illegal and unconstitutional to make this law retroactive with the intent of convicting Mushroom and his wife.  Who is no longer an illegal if I understand his posts correctly.

You can learn a bit more about ex post facto laws and its constitutional ramifications here.

People make it seem like it's so easy for a dirt-poor Mexican to get into this country "legally." I know Mexicans who are here on visas and such, and guess what... rich! I asked my English student (from Mexico, here legally because her mom's a doctor) what she thought about the poverty situation in her country... and I got the most unconcerned bimbo answer of my life ("huh? Oh, yeah... ummm... bad?"). "Legal" immigration is not and never has been a feasible option for poor people. So it's either break the laws of a foreign country, or let your family starve.... which would you do?

I realise that our economy can't sustain the entire impoverished population of Mexico, nor should it have to, but I wish people would get off their high American horses and stop acting like these people are scum and like they're better than these people just because they happened to be born into a society that could take care of them sufficiently. I'd like to see how any of you would cope with that kind of do-or-die survival circumstance. It's easy to shout criticisms from the top of the mountain.



A****ingmen, brother.


My ancestors were poor, and they came here legally.  In fact, I had family flee the Nazis when they occupied Denmark, and they left with nothing more than a suitcase and the clothes on their backs, but they came here legally. 


Perhaps your ancestors did, but many of the white European immigrants of the 19th century were not actually legal.  You know where the name "wop" comes from? Without papers.

Perhaps your ancestors did, but many of the white European immigrants of the 19th century were not actually legal.  You know where the name "wop" comes from? Without papers.


Just because they got away with it 150 years ago doesn't make it right.  It's like saying, "Hey, everyone else was speeding, why did you pull ME over?"  Guess what the officer will say? 

"Because I caught you first."

Just because they got away with it 150 years ago doesn't make it right.  It's like saying, "Hey, everyone else was speeding, why did you pull ME over?"  Guess what the officer will say? 

"Because I caught you first."


You know whats illogical? Comparing a traffic cop giving out speeding tickets to booting people out of this country, many of whom have lived most of their lives here.

Perhaps I should explain.

Article I, Section 9, the third rule:

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.

As in it would be illegal and unconstitutional to make this law retroactive with the intent of convicting Mushroom and his wife.  Who is no longer an illegal if I understand his posts correctly.




WHO KNOWS? the hysteria with regards to the SenselessBitcher Bill is so severe, and the current Supreme court so whacked out, that the ex post facto clause could be repealed. stranger things have happened, i.e. Patriot Act and Patriot Act 2.

more pix!!!

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/151662.php?theme=1

My dad emigrated here legally in 1968, my grandmother in the 50's, and both of their situations were entirely different from one another, not to mention from that of the typical poor Mexican. During the waves of immigration of yesteryear, things were a lot different, namely the fact that our immigration policies at those times responded to the various crises in Europe such as the the Potato Famine, and later to crises in Southeast Asia such as Korea and Vietnam...). However, our contemporary immigration policies have failed to adequetly respond to the poverty crisis south of the border and that is why we are facxed with a crisis of our own right now. I don't blame illegal Mexican immigrants for doing what they feel they have to do to survive. I for one am more upset at non-Mexican immigrants from countries especially in Europe who have come recently and stayed here illegally, because most of Europe is facing no crisis that even philisophically justify immigrating illegally. But I do sympathise with illegal Mexican immigrants because I can imagine what it's like to be in their shoes. When your family is going hungry you will do whatever you must do to provide for them, and if you personally cannot understand that, then I can only question your humanity.

Like I said in my previous post, it's very easy for Americans to throw stones because we've never been faced with that situation. It's also very easy to spout off infeasible and logistically impossible solutions such as "rounding them all up" and deporting them, because none of you, of course, will be doing any of the work... just footing your share of the bill. But I say you'll have to pay one way or the other, the onus is on us because we are the big guys, so we might as well do the right thing.

3 PAGES OF PIX!!!!

http://eecue.com/images_archive/eecue-album-1307-1-migrants_rights_protest.html

You know whats illogical? Comparing a traffic cop giving out speeding tickets to booting people out of this country, many of whom have lived most of their lives here.


It's not illogical, because there are some that get away with it and some who don't.  That is the only comparison I intended to make.  But just because someone has lived here most of their lives illegally doesn't mean they get to stay, they still broke the law.  The reality is that they do stay, which means someone isn't enforcing the existing laws, so whatever reforms they intend to make to the current immigration laws will probably not be enforced either. 


WHO KNOWS? the hysteria with regards to the SenselessBitcher Bill is so severe, and the current Supreme court so whacked out, that the ex post facto clause could be repealed. stranger things have happened, i.e. Patriot Act and Patriot Act 2.


The ex post facto clause would never be repealed because the amendment process is so difficult, not to mention the fact that no state assemblyman or congressman is that stupid.  The Patriot Acts are scary, for sure, but from my understanding there is nothing blatantly unconstitutional about them.



My dad emigrated here legally in 1968, my grandmother in the 50's, and both of their situations were entirely different from one another, not to mention from that of the typical poor Mexican. During the waves of immigration of yesteryear, things were a lot different, namely the fact that our immigration policies at those times responded to the various crises in Europe such as the the Potato Famine, and later to crises in Southeast Asia such as Korea and Vietnam...). However, our contemporary immigration policies have failed to adequetly respond to the poverty crisis south of the border and that is why we are facxed with a crisis of our own right now. I don't blame illegal Mexican immigrants for doing what they feel they have to do to survive. I for one am more upset at non-Mexican immigrants from countries especially in Europe who have come recently and stayed here illegally, because most of Europe is facing no crisis that even philisophically justify immigrating illegally. But I do sympathise with illegal Mexican immigrants because I can imagine what it's like to be in their shoes. When your family is going hungry you will do whatever you must do to provide for them, and if you personally cannot understand that, then I can only question your humanity.

Well gee, if you find some illegal Irish or illegal Indians or illegal Luxembourgites, let's deport them too!

But seriously...there is a survival instinct in all humans, I agree.  And it is good for people to try to help out when they are able to.  But there also comes a time when you have to be practical.  Like you said earlier, we cannot conceivably support all the impoverished Mexicans or non-Mexicans who want to come into the country, and by that same token, we cannot be expected to carry the burden of bringing the entire Third World out of destitution, at least not alone.  And you cannot force people to be generous either, because then you are telling people what to do with THEIR hard earned money and that is wrong. 

From what I understand of your post, desperation for a better life is the prime reason most people try to get into the country illegally.  Actions are rarely justified by illegal activities, but in this case I actually do agree with you.  There are dozens of people floating the 80 miles of treacherous waters between Cuba and Florida just for a SHOT at getting their feet on US soil.  There are stories of people sewing themselves into car upholstery or mattresses in a high-risk attempt to get past the border patrol dogs.  Lots of people cram into junky boats like sardines for thousands of dollars just for the opportunity to live the American dream.  Despite what people may say, the United States is still one of the greatest countries in the world, and these desperate souls prove that point.  But even a great country such as ours has its limits.

Interestingly, the people who complain about the US immigration policy don't cry as much about some of the European Union members' immigration policies that at times seem harsher than ours (better enforced too).  I'll try to dig up some links to those stories at a later time if requested.  Also, one wonders if there is a more efficient way to use all the worldwide aid money the USA doles out every year so that we can alleviate the poverty that you spoke of.


Like I said in my previous post, it's very easy for Americans to throw stones because we've never been faced with that situation. It's also very easy to spout off infeasible and logistically impossible solutions such as "rounding them all up" and deporting them, because none of you, of course, will be doing any of the work... just footing your share of the bill. But I say you'll have to pay one way or the other, the onus is on us because we are the big guys, so we might as well do the right thing.


I think our ideas of the "right" thing to do would be dissimilar.  Following from what I said above, maybe we should start telling other countries that we're tired of always having to be the "big guys" and tell them to step it up a notch.  Probably not gonna happen though. 

I know the Republicans are in an uproar about Bush's "amnesty" program for illegal workers, but I think it's actually a very fair plan.  Close off the borders, both Canadian and Mexican, and tell the 11 million or so in the country now that they have x years to show that they're worth citizenship.  If they can't prove their mettle, then they've had their shot and they can go back home.  Of course, there will be tons of debate about the standards for citizenship or residency for these people, and it would be incredibly abrupt to just suddenly build the Great Wall of Canada after so many years of come-and-go (and also along the Mexican border) but something has to be done so that we can control the influx of people and start to enforce the rules that we should have been enforcing long ago before this became the fiasco it is today.

It's not illogical, because there are some that get away with it and some who don't.  That is the only comparison I intended to make.  But just because someone has lived here most of their lives illegally doesn't mean they get to stay, they still broke the law.  The reality is that they do stay, which means someone isn't enforcing the existing laws, so whatever reforms they intend to make to the current immigration laws will probably not be enforced either. 


Actually it should.  Kids of illegals who have grown up in the U.S. are just as American as you or me.  You can send them back, but you're sending back an American imo.  Alot of them are not even necessarily fluent in Spanish(the one I went to High School with was not).

And I don't think they should have to "prove" their worth as citizens.  Its just not right, when most of them have worked hard, paid taxes, and been otherwise law-abiding citizens here for years on end and we have countless pieces of sh*t who were born here and don't have to prove their worth.

And like Fareed Zakaria(this guy knows his stuff) said, its extremely bizarre for the U.S. to want to emulate Europe's immigration policies when they obviously DON'T WORK.  They have a very downtrodden and dissatisfied immigrant population that is ripe for extremism.

Well gee, if you find some illegal Irish or illegal Indians or illegal Luxembourgites, let's deport them too!
 



Come to Boston, where they had so many Irish illegals they held what was called the "Irish Lottery" a few years back.  How is
this for a double standard:  Any Irish illegal (only Irish were eligible) could register to recieve a green card. If your name was
pulled you got one, and all those who didn't win did not fear prosecution because all information on non winners was
destroyed.  All non winners just went on their merry way.  I will stress this was for Irish only, Hispanics need not apply.

Perhaps other countires do need to step it up a notch, but that absolutely NOTHING to do with desperate Mexicans sneaking into this country, because it's entirely infeasible to expect European countries to take in poor Mexicans when we are the bordering nation. What I am saying is we need to cut the Mexican illegals that are already in this country a break and say "fair enough," secure the border, and start working seriously with the Mexican government to improve the Mexican standard of living. That means some huge changes down there, not the least of which is population control.

For you free trade fans, NAFTA has seriously impacted the Mexican economy in a negative way, and has basically acted as a private rewards club for American and Canadian companies (not to mention the Japanese). Canada's economy wins because now they can continue to trade over 80% of their raw material exports with the US but at low tariff rates, and not only that, but Japanese car manufacturers can now build their autos more cheaply in Canada, and send them to be sold in the US at reduced tarriffs. American companies of all colours win because they can send their manufacturing jobs down to certain areas of Mexico where their items can also be made more cheaply than in the US, but where they can also get away with paying dirt cheap wages for back-breaking labour, and on top of it all, they can import it back into the US with little or no tarriffs. Thus, the US and Canada benefit immensely while the Mexicans continue to suffer. So not only have we not helped ourselves by helping the Mexican economy, but we've hurt ourselves immigration-wise by continuing with NAFTA as it stands and making the Mexican economy worse. And we wonder why people are literally dying to get across the border.

You might feel like shirking the big guy responsibilty now that we might have to spend our tax dollars helping the Mexicans, but where were those same anti-big guy and fiscally conservative sentiments when the subject under discussion was the Iraqi invasion? It seems to me that plenty of the people (not all, but plenty) here who don't feel like living up to our responsibilities as the big guys in this situation felt totally comfortable in that position when we were about to kick the sh*t out of another country, or when we felt we just HAD to fight world Communism during the Cold War. Anyway, I'm starting to digress a little bit.

We wouldn't just be helping Mexicans by seriously working with the Mexican government to imporve Mexico, we'd be helping ourselves by relieving the stressor that is forcing and I do mean forcing deperate Mexicans to make the deadly 80 mile trek across the desert and into the promised land.

As for the illegal Irish, I saw their little demonstration on TV, and all I could say was "wah wah.  :\'(" My opinion is, and I say this even as someone with Irish heritage, GO BACK! Ireland is a great country to live in, and if you still would rather be in the US, then that's fine. It's not like it's too very hard for a European to get legal work here. Go back and come here legally, for chrissake! And if for some reason you don't make it, try for Canada, and if that falls through: TOUGH COOKIES! I guess you'll have to be content with living in Ireland, a free country with a rapid-fire economy, universal healthcare, EU status, a strong currency etc... ::Sigh:: so destitute, I know  ::).

OK, maybe I came off a little harsh on the illegal Irish. Don't get me wrong, I love Irish people, I come from a strong Gaelic background on my father's side, have a Gaelic surname, and nothing pleases me more than to see Irish and Scottish people living in this country and in Canada and doing well for themselves, and connecting their people on this continent with those across the pond. However, I think they need to enter this country legally, especially since they face no crisis at home in Ireland.

Beannachta