I'm studying the mid-19th century movement for Utopian communities right now, and I think the whole topic is extremely interesting. New Harmony, Indiana is extremely fascinating, both in its Owens and Rapp leaderships, and the Fruitlands (Louisa May Alcott spent part of her childhood there), and Brooks Farm communities to me share alot in common with the pseudo-intellectual New England and California hippie communes of the '60s and '70s. The Shakers and even the Mormons (with their movement to create "outside societies" in Kirtland and Nauvoo before they reached Utah) count as well.

Now, they're building Ave Maria in Florida, with the money of Thomas Monaghan, the founder of Domino's Pizza, a town east of Naples that originally planned to only allow Catholics to live there, around a Catholic university, and to prohibit all forms of pornography, contraception, etc. Of course, now expected legal challenges have reduced this plan, but still...There are examples of other communities like this, though, like Kiryas Joel, Monsey, and New Square, New York, which are all Orthodox Jewish and extremely conservative, to the point of Yiddish being the only language. I think Ave Maria is an odd idea in the first place. Shouldn't a faithful person be able to resist society's temptations, theoretically?

Now, they're building Ave Maria in Florida, with the money of Thomas Monaghan, the founder of Domino's Pizza, a town east of Naples that originally planned to only allow Catholics to live there, around a Catholic university, and to prohibit all forms of pornography, contraception, etc. Of course, now expected legal challenges have reduced this plan, but still...There are examples of other communities like this, though, like Kiryas Joel, Monsey, and New Square, New York, which are all Orthodox Jewish and extremely conservative, to the point of Yiddish being the only language. I think Ave Maria is an odd idea in the first place. Shouldn't a faithful person be able to resist society's temptations, theoretically?


It is impossible (and illegal) to prevent people from moving into someplace because of their religion.  However, they are allowed to encourage only Catholics to move into a place.

And the same goes for things like contraception, pornography and the like.  If a store in an area started to sell it, I am sure that the leaders would encourage a boycott of the store.

And as you said, this happens all over the place.  In 1980, the followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh decided to settle in the small town of Antelope, Oregon.  By 1984, they had taken over the City Council, filling it with their own members.  They changed the name of the town from Antelope to Rajneeshpuram, and started to enact local ordinances like the requirement that all houses that are painted are to be painted Red (the color of the Bhagwan).  Luckily, this only lasted a year.  By the end of 1985, the residents were able to take their Council back, and Antelope Oregon returned.

Myself, I have no problem of somebody creating their own Utopian Community.  I think it is silly, but it is everybodies right to be silly.  I only have a problem when they try to take over somebody elses town, and try to force the residents to follow their idea of "Utopia".

It is impossible (and illegal) to prevent people from moving into someplace because of their religion.  However, they are allowed to encourage only Catholics to move into a place.

And the same goes for things like contraception, pornography and the like.  If a store in an area started to sell it, I am sure that the leaders would encourage a boycott of the store.

And as you said, this happens all over the place.  In 1980, the followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh decided to settle in the small town of Antelope, Oregon.  By 1984, they had taken over the City Council, filling it with their own members.  They changed the name of the town from Antelope to Rajneeshpuram, and started to enact local ordinances like the requirement that all houses that are painted are to be painted Red (the color of the Bhagwan).  Luckily, this only lasted a year.  By the end of 1985, the residents were able to take their Council back, and Antelope Oregon returned.

Myself, I have no problem of somebody creating their own Utopian Community.  I think it is silly, but it is everybodies right to be silly.  I only have a problem when they try to take over somebody elses town, and try to force the residents to follow their idea of "Utopia".


Apparently, the Domino's founder, Tom Monaghan, actually originally thought he could only invite Catholics to live there...until his trusty lawyers told him that would be challenged  ;) . I've heard aboat the whole Antelope/Rajneeshpuram thing, I came across it in my wikipedia forays.

Apparently, the Domino's founder, Tom Monaghan, actually originally thought he could only invite Catholics to live there...until his trusty lawyers told him that would be challenged  ;) . I've heard aboat the whole Antelope/Rajneeshpuram thing, I came across it in my wikipedia forays.


I lived in Idaho when it was all happening.  To us, it was an event right next door, so we paid close attention.

The White Supremists tried to do the same thing in some areas of Northern Idaho, and thankfully all had their butts handed to them at council meetings.  In fact, one of the ways they kept that from happening was to prohibit convicted felons from taking part in city council meetings.

Before City Council meetings, they would have a member of the State Board of Elections go through the audience, handing out cards to those who were on record as being a legally registered voter.  If a matter came up for vote, you could not vote if you did not have a card.  This is the only thing that kept them from taking control of the Hayden Lake City Council.  Luckily, a large number of the racists that moved to the area had criminal records.  Because they were ineligable to vote, they could not influence city council meetings, and city council elections.  I think that in the 30+ years they congregated there, they were only able to get 1 member on the City Council.

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Before City Council meetings, they would have a member of the State Board of Elections go through the audience, handing out cards to those who were on record as being a legally registered voter.  If a matter came up for vote, you could not vote if you did not have a card.  This is the only thing that kept them from taking control of the Hayden Lake City Council.  Luckily, a large number of the racists that moved to the area had criminal records.  Because they were ineligable to vote, they could not influence city council meetings, and city council elections.  I think that in the 30+ years they congregated there, they were only able to get 1 member on the City Council.


Very creative.  ;)

I'm studying the mid-19th century movement for Utopian communities right now, and I think the whole topic is extremely interesting. New Harmony, Indiana is extremely fascinating, both in its Owens and Rapp leaderships, and the Fruitlands (Louisa May Alcott spent part of her childhood there), and Brooks Farm communities to me share alot in common with the pseudo-intellectual New England and California hippie communes of the '60s and '70s. The Shakers and even the Mormons (with their movement to create "outside societies" in Kirtland and Nauvoo before they reached Utah) count as well.

Now, they're building Ave Maria in Florida, with the money of Thomas Monaghan, the founder of Domino's Pizza, a town east of Naples that originally planned to only allow Catholics to live there, around a Catholic university, and to prohibit all forms of pornography, contraception, etc. Of course, now expected legal challenges have reduced this plan, but still...There are examples of other communities like this, though, like Kiryas Joel, Monsey, and New Square, New York, which are all Orthodox Jewish and extremely conservative, to the point of Yiddish being the only language. I think Ave Maria is an odd idea in the first place. Shouldn't a faithful person be able to resist society's temptations, theoretically?



I did my undergraduate History honor's thesis on the the effects of the Industrial Revolution and how it lead to the Second Great Awaking and the creation of utopian societies. My two "case studies" were the Perfectionists who, under the leadership of John Humphrey Noyes started the Oneida Community (yes, the same ones that make the silverwear), and the movement started by William Miller (which is the forerunner of the Seventh Day Adventist Church).  My argument was that because the Industrial Revolution displaced many people (going from the craft era-i.e. master, journeyman, apprentice, etc. to being a factory worker with little wages, poor work enviroment, etc.) they seem to turn to religion for answers and tried to create what they precieve as the ideal community. That could be said the same for today. I think with all the ills today, people do turn to religion. I also think that because this country is suppose to have freedom of religion, there are some sects that think that their religion is disappearing and want to "preserve" it they way they want to. So, if you have a Catholic society, having a Jew there will not preserve the Catholic traditions and vice-versa.

Carlos' ex created a "community" which, to me is an up-dated term for a commune. I'm not too sure how many people lived there (25?), and it was a joint effort-everyone pitching in for the common goal. The one thing that I didn't like about it was the lack of privacy but that is me. I guess some people really love it. But what really floored us was that Carlos' ex left the community.  :o  This was her dream but I guess it didn't go the way she had hoped it would.


Cat

The White Supremists tried to do the same thing in some areas of Northern Idaho, and thankfully all had their butts handed to them at council meetings.  In fact, one of the ways they kept that from happening was to prohibit convicted felons from taking part in city council meetings.

Before City Council meetings, they would have a member of the State Board of Elections go through the audience, handing out cards to those who were on record as being a legally registered voter.  If a matter came up for vote, you could not vote if you did not have a card.  This is the only thing that kept them from taking control of the Hayden Lake City Council.  Luckily, a large number of the racists that moved to the area had criminal records.  Because they were ineligable to vote, they could not influence city council meetings, and city council elections.  I think that in the 30+ years they congregated there, they were only able to get 1 member on the City Council.


Many people think it's unfair that convicted felons in the United States are permanently deprived of the right to vote, even after they've been released from prison. Here in Canada, convicts regain the right to vote once they're no longer incarcerated.

I've always thought that criminals who've served their debt to society should have their full rights as citizens reinstated, including the right to vote, but after this example, I can sort of see why not doing so might have its benefits!

I did my undergraduate History honor's thesis on the the effects of the Industrial Revolution and how it lead to the Second Great Awaking and the creation of utopian societies. My two "case studies" were the Perfectionists who, under the leadership of John Humphrey Noyes started the Oneida Community (yes, the same ones that make the silverwear), and the movement started by William Miller (which is the forerunner of the Seventh Day Adventist Church).  My argument was that because the Industrial Revolution displaced many people (going from the craft era-i.e. master, journeyman, apprentice, etc. to being a factory worker with little wages, poor work enviroment, etc.) they seem to turn to religion for answers and tried to create what they precieve as the ideal community. That could be said the same for today. I think with all the ills today, people do turn to religion. I also think that because this country is suppose to have freedom of religion, there are some sects that think that their religion is disappearing and want to "preserve" it they way they want to. So, if you have a Catholic society, having a Jew there will not preserve the Catholic traditions and vice-versa.

Carlos' ex created a "community" which, to me is an up-dated term for a commune. I'm not too sure how many people lived there (25?), and it was a joint effort-everyone pitching in for the common goal. The one thing that I didn't like about it was the lack of privacy but that is me. I guess some people really love it. But what really floored us was that Carlos' ex left the community.  :o  This was her dream but I guess it didn't go the way she had hoped it would.


Cat


My theory as to why "family values" and religious fundamentalism gained hold in the rural Midwest and South is that these areas were thrust rapidly into modern values and modern society in the mid-late 20th century, and so in order to deal with corporatization and development, and the displacement caused by massive economic and social changes, they had to find an extreme religious framework. It helped them deal with modern society, something they were unequipped fully to deal with. It's interesting that you did your thesis on that...that's exactly what I'm doing in history right now.

My theory as to why "family values" and religious fundamentalism gained hold in the rural Midwest and South is that these areas were thrust rapidly into modern values and modern society in the mid-late 20th century, and so in order to deal with corporatization and development, and the displacement caused by massive economic and social changes, they had to find an extreme religious framework. It helped them deal with modern society, something they were unequipped fully to deal with. It's interesting that you did your thesis on that...that's exactly what I'm doing in history right now.


Actually, it is quite the other way around.

Those areas of the Country have always had a somewhat fundamentalist streak.  Frequently going back 150+ years.  It is not anything that happened suddenly, or came about in the latter half of the 20th century.

Remember, that most of the country until WWII was rural.  And in a rural community, the Church tends to be the major focal point of community activities.  It is where the community gathers for baptisms, weddings, deaths, dances, festivals, and even elections.

For those that remember "Little House On The Prarie", it really did give a good depiction of a small rural community of the era.  The Church was also the School, City Hall, and every other civic building all rolled up into one.  And if you go to a small community in the "Bible Belt" today, you will normally find the largest building in town is the church.

This is more a case of the "Modern Cities" leaving the way things used to be.  And quite often, when people leave "The Country", they try to remake themselves.  They drop their accent, their religion, and become "Mordern Urbanites".

Actually, it is quite the other way around.

Those areas of the Country have always had a somewhat fundamentalist streak.  Frequently going back 150+ years.  It is not anything that happened suddenly, or came about in the latter half of the 20th century.

Remember, that most of the country until WWII was rural.  And in a rural community, the Church tends to be the major focal point of community activities.  It is where the community gathers for baptisms, weddings, deaths, dances, festivals, and even elections.

For those that remember "Little House On The Prarie", it really did give a good depiction of a small rural community of the era.  The Church was also the School, City Hall, and every other civic building all rolled up into one.  And if you go to a small community in the "Bible Belt" today, you will normally find the largest building in town is the church.

This is more a case of the "Modern Cities" leaving the way things used to be.  And quite often, when people leave "The Country", they try to remake themselves.  They drop their accent, their religion, and become "Mordern Urbanites".


Most descendents of urban Catholic/Jewish immigrants in the NE and Midwest, like myself, had religion as a strong focal point of their community existence in the city and still do, even if in the fringe of the cities and the suburbs. In Irish-German/Italian/Polish communities, the parish and church provided and still do provide THE focal point of community organization and ritual, in many ways...this is common even in fairly middle-class to upscale Jersey and Long Island suburbs. In Jewish communities, the temple always provided the focal point of the community and the way people lived within their "urban villages", and if you go to most Jewish towns, it is still the case.

I was shocked when I found out that the culture of Dallas, T.X. began with an artistic French commune called "La R