And why should this God fellow help you instead of some starving African child who's been orphaned by AIDS? Are you worthier than those kids? That's the big question (or at least one of them) that I have... Why does it seem that God only helps rich Westerners? And when I say rich, I mean in comparison to a starving african child orphaned by AIDS.

McDonald, why do I get the hard question. I'm just a regular guy on the board.  ;)
Good question and I

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof.

McDonald, why do I get the hard question. I'm just a regular guy on the board.  ;)

Because you choose to believe... and have tried to justify your beliefs here.  Which is no bad thing.  But can you see why people like me find it so frustrating: where I see things happening by chance, some people being rich, healthy and lucky throughout their lives when millions more seem to be without riches, health or any kind of luck whatsoever... we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f*** about the majority of the population.  Bearing in mind that the poorest and most needy are the ones who usually have the strongest faith...


I simply invited God into my life and when I did, things improved.

ISTM that it's more to do with you, and your attitude to life, than anything any kind of God is doing.


I don’t know about you but I’m a father with one kid and maybe you have kids or you don’t but you may be able to ponder this thought. If you could rescue that starving suffering child, and many more, but the only way was to sacrifice your own child by putting him or her to death, but in doing so it would save multitudes, would you do it? I wouldn’t. I know I wouldn’t. But that’s what the bible says God did with Jesus, so it leads me to believe that He cares more for us and the world than we can comprehend.

Yes, I do have children of my own: all I can say about this is that I'd need 100% proof positive that my child's death would save multitudes before I'd give it a second thought... and even then I couldn't guarantee an answer... and the bible may say God did that, but I'm afraid that cuts absolutely zero ice with me: the bible says a bucketload of other stuff, too, a lot of which you *really* wouldn't like to see happen.



Hey Philbo, I was referring more to nice manners/etiqutte when I said it wasn't very nice, & that it's judgemental to pick on a faith or the people that have that faith, but maybe I'm reading into it wrong, and that's my problem.

I try not to be judgmental in that I don't want to make judgments about a person's morals or character based on their faith or religion; but I do try and question that faith, basically 'cause I find the premises on which all theistic faiths are based totally unsatisfying in terms of their explanations of the world around us.


And what's the worse that can happen to me if I believe in God or don't believe in God? one of 2 things will happen:
1) If I believe in God and die, and  there is no God, then I'm dead, done, the end,  But if I'm right & God is real , then there's heaven and unimaginable love & goodness, no pain, no tears, no depression, no sadness, no fear. 
2) If I don't believe in God and die, and there is no God, then I'm simply dead, done, the end. But if I was wrong, & God is real, the unfortunate result is hell. whatever that is, but it's not in Gods presence, that's for sure. So the best choice for me is to believe, since it’s better or equal either way.'   

That's basically Pascal's Wager. If you get down to the bottom of the page, please let me know...


I don't need logic, science, or reason to provide facts and prove God exists beyond all reasonable doubt.  I just believe it.

I'm not talking about proof beyond all reasonable doubt, I'm talking about providing even the faintest speck of a suggestion that there actually is a God out there, let alone one who gives a fig for humanity.  Logic, science and reason all point to there being no god whatsoever.

That's basically Pascal's Wager. If you get down to the bottom of the page, please let me know...
I'm not talking about proof beyond all reasonable doubt, I'm talking about providing even the faintest speck of a suggestion that there actually is a God out there, let alone one who gives a fig for humanity.  Logic, science and reason all point to there being no god whatsoever.


Pascal's wager seemed appropriate to make things simple, but it can easily be rejected as a load of crap.
What kind of proof would make someone reconsider?  Or are people's minds so firm and opinionated that even real proof would be rejected. I don't know. A physical appearance may be proof, but really, what kinds of proof does a person of sound logic and reason need to believe in God?
and logic, science, and reason is limited as to how much info it can provide us.  For instance, using sound logic, science, and reason,  take me back to the beginning of time to when things(the universe) as we know it began, has it been prooved in any way by these means or simply theorized. prove what actually started it all. was there a time when there absolutely nothing? Or did this universe just exist. that takes faith to believe, but what happened that got it going?

Why on Earth would a being so much more advanced, mature and intelligent than ourselves do something that even I as a human see is bull-headed and wrong.  That being having a "hell". 

Even if I ever believe in a higher power, I could NEVER see myself believing in Hell.

Why on Earth would a being so much more advanced, mature and intelligent than ourselves do something that even I as a human see is bull-headed and wrong.  That being having a "hell". 

Even if I ever believe in a higher power, I could NEVER see myself believing in Hell.


Here's why I don't believe in Heaven or Hell:

1. The Earth/Universe can be Heaven or Hell if you make it so
2. It makes more sense that they were invented to control people's behavior than that they actually exist
3. Nobody truly deserves either, and a good God wouldn't allow anyone to burn in eternal Hell, and if Hell doesn't exist neither does Heaven
4. There is no real reason that punishment should exist after death

So, you're saying that the ONLY way to "Heaven" is by believing in God?  What about those who have never heard of him, but lead a good life?  What about those who have, may not believe, but live a good life?  Are you saying that they will end up in hell?


See, this is one of the MAJOR problems I have with Christianity....and the Bible is totally contradictory in explaining "how to get to Heaven".....one part says that the only was is to accept Jesus/God into your heart....another says that you can get there based on your works alone....yet another says that you must do both.  I believe that there is a "Heaven" and "Hell", but I don't believe that there is any ONE way to get to either.....and I think your actions have more to do with it than your faith in God/Jesus (which is not the "widely accepted" view).
Lots of tough issues crazymom. When you say lead a good life, it's good compared to who? There probably should be some sort of standard otherwise all 6.5 billion of us on the planet could have our own idea of what is good. Biblically, God is the standard of good, and all fall short of that standard. I know so many good people, friends and family that are basically good and it does make it hard for me to accept hell for them, because they're really good people. Hell is described as seperation from God. There's a passage in the bible where it's taken into account that some people will never hear the message of salvation but that God will judge their hearts based on how they acted/behaved and I don't recall reading that or understanding that before. But for those that have heard and refuse to believe, the result is the very unpopular Hell. The idea of hell doesn't go over too well these days.
As for works, your works or life is a result of salvation, not the cause of it.  People will know you're a believer by the life you lead so your works justify you and declare you a believer.

Also I'd like to say you shouldn't take criticism of your religion personally.  Shepherd thinks I'm a loony leftie in regards to a lot of my political beliefs but I don't get upset about it.  Its not a shot at me as a person, its just at beliefs I subscribe to.  Its like if someone makes fun of a person for being a Clippers fan, they aren't really insulting them.  They just think the Clippers suck.




but you see, my faith/religion means a lot more to me than let's say, comparing it to a favorite actor of mine. If someone were to say to me, "ya know, I really think that Mark Ruffalo is full of crap and sucks as an actor"...then fine, I am not going to take personal offense to it....but on the other hand, if someone says things to me mocking the religion that I fully believe in and make a very pertinent part of my life, then yes, I am going to get offended. I don't expect you to understand it though because it is a very personal thing, IMO...and if you don't believe in it, then you cannot fully grasp how it feels.



Sorry, but I have to take exception to this remark: where did he insult what you believe?  He questioned it, sure, but "insult"?  No.



I beg to differ but yes, IMO, he did insult it.  If someone were to come out and make a statement saying, "All atheists are bad people are are doomed to hell".....yes, that is considered to be an opinion, but I also think that it is an insulting statement toward people who happen to be atheists.  The same goes for the statements that he said concerning my beliefs in Christianity...they may have only been his opinions, but they were insulting...and if I my religion is something that is personal to me, than why wouldn't I take it personally, as an insult?

Alternatively, could it possibly be that because where you happen to live is so overwhelmingly Christian, there simply isn't any other religion to attack?  Why is it that these great monotheistic religions with their all-powerful deities are so touchy about criticism and fun being poked at them? 


Maybe because more people have died in the name of "Religion" then any other cause.

Religion is a very personal issue, and I take offense whenever any religion is attacked and slandered.  And I have defended both people of the Jewish and Muslim faith in here, even though that is not my religion.

I am not a fundamentalist in any sense.  But when somebody makes a deeply personal attack, I will defend them.  To me, making crude or insensitive attacks against somebodies choice of religion is no better then attacking their wife or kids.  There is simply no excuse for it, and I will speak out against people like that.

To me attacking somebody for their religion (or their religion itself) is no different then attacking somebody for their race, it is ignorant and deserving of my contempt.

I think it's bullshhh that believers in Christianity pretend they alone own the religion.


Be careful, you are stereotyping people when you make a statement like that.

Next time, try "some believers", it is much more accurate and truthfull.  Trying to group everybody in a group to fit your view of them is wrong.

To me attacking somebody for their religion (or their religion itself) is no different then attacking somebody for their race, it is ignorant and deserving of my contempt.

To me, it is quite the opposite: attacking someone because of their race is narrow-minded and usually just plain stupid.  A person's race is something they're born into, and have no way of changing; there are no race-based generalizations that actually hold true, so there isn't anything to attack.

Religion, OTOH, is something you choose to believe.  Of course, there is a difference between attacking someone because of their religion and attacking the religion itself.  The problem that I (and some other atheistic types here) have is that too many religious people construe an attack on their religion as a personal attack on them.  But if they want to go round believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies, then let them: but what seriously pisses me off is when a religion that has a long history of intolerance and suppression of any divergent opinion starts crying foul when a tiny minority try pointing out how just plain implausible and mutually contradictory its basic tenets are.

To me, it is quite the opposite: attacking someone because of their race is narrow-minded and usually just plain stupid.  A person's race is something they're born into, and have no way of changing; there are no race-based generalizations that actually hold true, so there isn't anything to attack.

Religion, OTOH, is something you choose to believe.  Of course, there is a difference between attacking someone because of their religion and attacking the religion itself.  The problem that I (and some other atheistic types here) have is that too many religious people construe an attack on their religion as a personal attack on them.  But if they want to go round believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies, then let them: but what seriously pisses me off is when a religion that has a long history of intolerance and suppression of any divergent opinion starts crying foul when a tiny minority try pointing out how just plain implausible and mutually contradictory its basic tenets are.


I could kiss you.  Karma+1

There is simply no excuse for it, and I will speak out against people like that.



You know whats funny about that?  How little I care.

Jesus Christ: False prophet, Liar, and Fraud:
he had no powers
the "virgin" mary was afraid of getting beat up by joseph for doin it with some other guy so she said he was the sun of god and that he was immaculate.  
The Jesus in urine amd Mary in cow dung exhibits
Until I see a Danish government-approved cartoon of Jesus giving a donkey a BJ
we know more about how basically silly and inconsistent Christianity is
I know I hate it
We can make fun of it all we want it's ours to make fun of
now that we finally have the freedom and legal protection to be blasphemous
some of the utter twaddle they'll accept as true
God only helps rich Westerners
God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***
let alone one who gives a fig for humanity
believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies

Other than the above ridicule and mocking and jesting, and jeering,  I went back and read thru all the posts and conclude that the members who posted their views for why not to believe, made some good points, and arguments against. They had some serious questions, and weren't quite as insultive as I originally thought. They presented good reasons and shared personal experiences for why they feel the way they do towards christianity , Jesus and His followers. I feel less defensive after careful reading and hope for equal treatment for the others who are on the other side of this topic that have a sincere belief in Jesus and shared our reasons, and whether they don't hold water with anyone or convince anybody to change is ok. We all get to enjoy freedom of speech, religion, freewill to think and believe as we choose.  8)

I could kiss you.  Karma+1
this is non-topic, but excellent pic Alex of those Fabulous Furry Freak brothers   :)

this is non-topic, but excellent pic Alex of those Fabulous Furry Freak brothers   :)


Thanks 8)

My uncle told me about them so I found this pic.  He told me his favorite one was the one where it showed two of them sitting in their apartment, in black and white, cobwebs in the corners, the posters curled up at the edges, boards sticking up, and the third one burts in and says "I got it!" and the room starts going back to color, the cobwebs dissappear, the posters start straightening themselves out LOL ;D

Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.

I used to go to 'Sunday school' as a kid. My father was an atheist, my mum, somebody who wants to believe in God. Guess she thought it would be good for me.  Myself, I wasn't too sure what to make of it all. For a while there, I sought of believed. When my father commited suicide, it became harder to believe. Years later, I went to live in the USA, & my life was so happy. Things started to come together in a big way, & I sort of believed my dad was 'up there' pulling some strings for me. When it all fell apart, & I had to return to England, I wasn't so sure.

Here's what you said:

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

Over the years, as I've thought more and more about what goes on in the world, I've become increasingly sceptical about the whole thing. For a number of years there, I thought of myself as an agnostic ... somebody sitting on the fence, trying to have an each way bet. Probably for the last decade or two, I've become a firm atheist, and am convinced that conventional religion is a crock of ****.

When you really think about it, there's so many reasons NOT to believe.

1. Babies born with handicaps. Why? Is the baby being punished? The parents?  (Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

2. Babies that are 'still-born'. What was the point of the whole exercise. Also, do they now automatically go to heaven, whilst the rest of us have to earn our ways there through maybe a 100 years or so of various tests of our worthiness?  So how do they get this favouritism. Or is the mother being punished. Was the baby just a 'prop' in 'God's' plan? 

(Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

3. The 'World Trade Center' bastardry ... . So many fine people wiped out as though they were mere cockroaches. Intelligent, ambitious etc; etc; .. who knows what plans many of them had. There may have been the odd person amongst them that 'God' didn't want around ... so thousands of good people had to go? Then there's all the families/friends grief, children who've lost parents ... all these people whose lives are torn apart forever. Myself, fortunately I knew nobody involved personally. But like many spectators around the world, I was stunned/shocked/appalled/ ..ANGRY  >:( >:( >:( >:(  as hell !!! (if such a place existed .... maybe this is it?).  The world has changed since 9/11. Our mortality has been brought home big time, not to mention the impermanence of our monuments. As Kansas once sang, 'All we are is dust in the wind'.  Millions/billions of years from now, the sun will become a red giant, envelop the earth, and incinerate any remaining 'monuments' we might have erected. We really are insignificant in this mind bogglingly immense universe.

So why did the 'World Trade Centre' / other major disasters around the world  happen  to so many innocent people?

( Ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

Where was 'God' in all this? Spectating helplessly? He's in a battle with the devil, and like Superman, his resources are over-taxed, he can't be everywhere at once, so the devil won this one ..... and all those other one's with the still-borns/handicapped, etc; etc. Maybe he had more important things to do, like take sides with a sportsman who invokes god, thanks him afterwards for helping him beat his opponents ( what a joke ....!). >:(

You know, when you really think about it, this famous riddle by an ancient greek called epicurus sums it up:

The Riddle of Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


Why do we have god? Here's my thoughts. In pre-history when cave men were about, they couldn't make sense of the elements, which they were at the mercy of. Lightning, earthquakes, stars, birth, death ... so much wonderous/mysterious. A huge hostile world. So like children they conjured up something beyond themselves, which they felt they needed to appease, through sacrifices, prayer,temples etc.  Years later when conventional religions were established, the corrupt church hierarchy saw it as a way of controlling the masses. When you're rich/powerful, you can keep the poorer/downtrodden at bay by the dogma. Let them think that they will be rewarded in heaven, the after-life. Ah yes, rellgion.. the 'opiate of the masses'.

Persecute/torture, boil alive those who disagree with your version of religion ... the 'heretics'. What a load of nonsense, that the god of christianity is the real one, not the one of Islam. So, you're a good person, do everything right, but don't go to heaven because you believed in the wrong god? What about if you were born on a desert island, never heard of any religions? Do you go to heaven?
What's heaven like? Are we going to be hanging about with the cavemen too (& all other eras?). Will your dog be there? If you were happily married to 3 wives who also had other husbands, who's going to be with who? What if you loved somebody, but they went to hell. How heavenly will heaven be for you without them? How old will you be?

Back to why we invented god. Self-preservation. Survival! ... which we as human beings have as our number one bit of programming. Procreation is one form of this . We can't get past the idea that afterwards is an eternal nothing. We learn all this information in our lives, become so smart, for it only to be wiped out on a personal level? No, it can't be. So we clutch at straws. Our egos can't handle it. You might as well believe in the 'tooth fairy' as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's kind of ironic that the comedian 'Dave Allen', whose religious jokes I enjoyed a lot, died about the same time as Pope John Paul II. I wonder if that pope and he are enjoying a joke together (I doubt it). Dave was always taking the piss out of the popes in his  sketches. I think he got it right when he observed, 'why would you want to go heaven & sit around listening to harp music all day? Let me go to hell where they have wild women/action etc' (not a quote, just the gist).

I know there's a lot of holes in the 'big-bang' theory and other non- god explanations of how we got here. Nobody can give the definitive answer at this stage. Still, that doesn't mean we have to 'throw out the baby with the bath water', and go back to invoking god as the origin ... that's just a 'cop-out'. Given enough centuries/scientific discoveries, I reckon many generations from now, we will have that answer. Knowledge has escalated at an enormous rate over the last century, so let's have confidence we will find this stuff out (if we don't blow ourselves up b4 then). In the meantime, when disasters strike, the flock of the naive will comfort themselves in their churches, at funerals, with those words of solace from the institutions of the clergy. Ah, yet again, 'religion, the opiate ....'

I'm sorry, but we're just intelligent apes. VERY intelligent apes. Nothing more, nothing less. Hope the apes go to heaven too.

Why do we have god? Here's my thoughts. In pre-history when cave men were about, they couldn't make sense of the elements, which they were at the mercy of. Lightning, earthquakes, stars, birth, death ... so much wonderous/mysterious. A huge hostile world. So like children they conjured up something beyond themselves, which they felt they needed to appease, through sacrifices, prayer,temples etc.  Years later when conventional religions were established, the corrupt church hierarchy saw it as a way of controlling the masses. When you're rich/powerful, you can keep the poorer/downtrodden at bay by the dogma. Let them think that they will be rewarded in heaven, the after-life. Ah yes, rellgion.. the 'opiate of the masses'.


Exactly.  The concept of deities started as a very primitive way of explaining the universe, long before any real science came along.  And later it was used to serve political ends..

Those poor persons who take anything and everything from the ruling classes and do it with a smile on their face saying "god bless you" remind me of the old horse(or was it a donkey? i haven't read it in awhile) in Animal Farm, who believes if he keeps working hard and doing what hes asked he'll be rewarded.  And then one day, they come to get him for his "retirement" and hes really being taken to the glue factory.  Very sad, that part made me cry..

Back to why we invented god. Self-preservation. Survival! ... which we as human beings have as our number one bit of programming. Procreation is one form of this . We can't get past the idea that afterwards is an eternal nothing. We learn all this information in our lives, become so smart, for it only to be wiped out on a personal level? No, it can't be. So we clutch at straws. Our egos can't handle it. You might as well believe in the 'tooth fairy' as far as I'm concerned.

Dead on the money again.  We want to cling to these beliefs because its hard for the human mind to accept mortality.


I'm sorry, but we're just intelligent apes. VERY intelligent apes. Nothing more, nothing less. Hope the apes go to heaven too.

Standing ovation.  And to elude to a part earlier in your post,  on the cosmic scale, I wouldn't doubt that we are like cockroaches sadly.  Earth is probably the Alabama of the Universe. ;D

Well said (+1).  He may have been "before your time", but there was a former member on here who would whine and complain about people "bashing Christianity" in one breath and, in the next, say how atheists were all amoral and evil.  I think some of us were just bringing up beliefs that we felt were contradictory and it was mistakenly interpreted as "bashing".  At least, that's what I was doing.  If it came across as bashing, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intent. :)
right on crazymom. I think I know who "he" was, and user name started with an H ? I read some of his posts and was amazed at the level of intensity that came across. Way too much for me and anyone else I think and quite a turnoff but he's young and hopefully will mature and get a little more balanced. I'm not trying to convert anyone or say I'm right, you're wrong. I'm living my life and doing what most here are doing, which is expressing my belief and opinion, simple as that, and hopefully in a peaceful easy kind of way which is my style. Take it Easy


Thanks 8)

My uncle told me about them so I found this pic.  He told me his favorite one was the one where it showed two of them sitting in their apartment, in black and white, cobwebs in the corners, the posters curled up at the edges, boards sticking up, and the third one burts in and says "I got it!" and the room starts going back to color, the cobwebs dissappear, the posters start straightening themselves out LOL ;D
I used to buy the comic books and you can get them at comic book stores or Ebay. I would luv a Freak Bros. poster. right on man, very cool and a huge memory for me back in the 70's when I was a total stoner.  8)


Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.


Here's what you said:  I didn't say this

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

wow, that was a long post 70sto80sGUY  :)  I don't do well reading these long ones, I may have A.D.D. or just fried too many brain cells back in the 70's, and it is hard for me to pay attention, but first let me say that all the quotes above my post were not mine.   God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof,  " we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***     didn't come from me. none of those were from me. I was just using them to make a point that the non christian sentiment was quite strong and those were some of the things that were said to me and others, but I didn't author that quote, so don't credit me with that. That quote, and all the rest of them are not my feeling or sentiments at all. I believe in God, I believe the bible is the best selling book ever, and I believe it's the year 2006 A.D., not 2006 C.E. , and I believe El_Duderino will have a girlfriend before he turns 20.
I read every bit of your post and appeciate your opinion, I don't agree but I know we'll continue to have a good time together on this website. Take care my friend  8)

Wow, that's really well written and emotional.  Here's my review:



Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.

I used to go to 'Sunday school' as a kid. My father was an atheist, my mum, somebody who wants to believe in God. Guess she thought it would be good for me.  Myself, I wasn't too sure what to make of it all. For a while there, I sought of believed. When my father commited suicide, it became harder to believe. Years later, I went to live in the USA, & my life was so happy. Things started to come together in a big way, & I sort of believed my dad was 'up there' pulling some strings for me. When it all fell apart, & I had to return to England, I wasn't so sure.



Most of my family is Christian (Catholic, mostly) so until I was 13 I was Christian.  However, by my pre-teens I started being annoyed with the fact that Christians believed animals to be basically walking sticks of meat and that they were so anti-fun and hating of the Earth.  So I decided to become an Agnostic.  At first, I felt like I no longer needed to be a moral person, because there was no longer any reason for me to be, but in time I realized that being good is a reward in itself, so I've been fighting demons in trying to again find a reason to be a decent person and do great things.  





God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***



It's a mystery. The biggest copout ever.


Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.

I used to go to 'Sunday school' as a kid. My father was an atheist, my mum, somebody who wants to believe in God. Guess she thought it would be good for me.  Myself, I wasn't too sure what to make of it all. For a while there, I sought of believed. When my father commited suicide, it became harder to believe. Years later, I went to live in the USA, & my life was so happy. Things started to come together in a big way, & I sort of believed my dad was 'up there' pulling some strings for me. When it all fell apart, & I had to return to England, I wasn't so sure.

Here's what you said:

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

Over the years, as I've thought more and more about what goes on in the world, I've become increasingly sceptical about the whole thing. For a number of years there, I thought of myself as an agnostic ... somebody sitting on the fence, trying to have an each way bet. Probably for the last decade or two, I've become a firm atheist, and am convinced that conventional religion is a crock of ****.

When you really think about it, there's so many reasons NOT to believe.

1. Babies born with handicaps. Why? Is the baby being punished? The parents?  (Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

2. Babies that are 'still-born'. What was the point of the whole exercise. Also, do they now automatically go to heaven, whilst the rest of us have to earn our ways there through maybe a 100 years or so of various tests of our worthiness?  So how do they get this favouritism. Or is the mother being punished. Was the baby just a 'prop' in 'God's' plan? 

(Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )



I agree: would a loving God create people that would live a life of suffering?  Either God is a d*ck like us, or the more likely explanation: the White Man in the Sky doesn't exist.


Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.

I used to go to 'Sunday school' as a kid. My father was an atheist, my mum, somebody who wants to believe in God. Guess she thought it would be good for me.  Myself, I wasn't too sure what to make of it all. For a while there, I sought of believed. When my father commited suicide, it became harder to believe. Years later, I went to live in the USA, & my life was so happy. Things started to come together in a big way, & I sort of believed my dad was 'up there' pulling some strings for me. When it all fell apart, & I had to return to England, I wasn't so sure.

Here's what you said:

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

Over the years, as I've thought more and more about what goes on in the world, I've become increasingly sceptical about the whole thing. For a number of years there, I thought of myself as an agnostic ... somebody sitting on the fence, trying to have an each way bet. Probably for the last decade or two, I've become a firm atheist, and am convinced that conventional religion is a crock of ****.

When you really think about it, there's so many reasons NOT to believe.

1. Babies born with handicaps. Why? Is the baby being punished? The parents?  (Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

2. Babies that are 'still-born'. What was the point of the whole exercise. Also, do they now automatically go to heaven, whilst the rest of us have to earn our ways there through maybe a 100 years or so of various tests of our worthiness?  So how do they get this favouritism. Or is the mother being punished. Was the baby just a 'prop' in 'God's' plan? 

(Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

3. The 'World Trade Center' bastardry ... . So many fine people wiped out as though they were mere cockroaches. Intelligent, ambitious etc; etc; .. who knows what plans many of them had. There may have been the odd person amongst them that 'God' didn't want around ... so thousands of good people had to go? Then there's all the families/friends grief, children who've lost parents ... all these people whose lives are torn apart forever. Myself, fortunately I knew nobody involved personally. But like many spectators around the world, I was stunned/shocked/appalled/ ..ANGRY  >:( >:( >:( >:(  as hell !!! (if such a place existed .... maybe this is it?).  The world has changed since 9/11. Our mortality has been brought home big time, not to mention the impermanence of our monuments. As Kansas once sang, 'All we are is dust in the wind'.  Millions/billions of years from now, the sun will become a red giant, envelop the earth, and incinerate any remaining 'monuments' we might have erected. We really are insignificant in this mind bogglingly immense universe.

So why did the 'World Trade Centre' / other major disasters around the world  happen  to so many innocent people?

( Ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

Where was 'God' in all this? Spectating helplessly? He's in a battle with the devil, and like Superman, his resources are over-taxed, he can't be everywhere at once, so the devil won this one ..... and all those other one's with the still-borns/handicapped, etc; etc. Maybe he had more important things to do, like take sides with a sportsman who invokes god, thanks him afterwards for helping him beat his opponents ( what a joke ....!). >:(

You know, when you really think about it, this famous riddle by an ancient greek called epicurus sums it up:

The Riddle of Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"



A Catholic would tell you that God permits "evil" because "we have free will", and to not do so would make us no better than robots.  However, I disagree here: yes, people have free will, but God could prevent bad things from happening if he made it our nature to be good-willed.  Choice is an illusion, it's simply what we're driven to do by our feelings.  We're all just actors in a play.


Hi Badfinger fan,

I was just glancing at the 'recent posts' listing ... looks like this post is a very hot topic (to me). I haven't bothered to read the other posts yet (but I will later!). However, it was yours which caught my eye. Seem to remember you're from California? Guess I'm a little surprised by your comments, as I have this idea that the vast majority of Americans are quite religious/strongly Christian.

I used to go to 'Sunday school' as a kid. My father was an atheist, my mum, somebody who wants to believe in God. Guess she thought it would be good for me.  Myself, I wasn't too sure what to make of it all. For a while there, I sought of believed. When my father commited suicide, it became harder to believe. Years later, I went to live in the USA, & my life was so happy. Things started to come together in a big way, & I sort of believed my dad was 'up there' pulling some strings for me. When it all fell apart, & I had to return to England, I wasn't so sure.

Here's what you said:

God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

Over the years, as I've thought more and more about what goes on in the world, I've become increasingly sceptical about the whole thing. For a number of years there, I thought of myself as an agnostic ... somebody sitting on the fence, trying to have an each way bet. Probably for the last decade or two, I've become a firm atheist, and am convinced that conventional religion is a crock of ****.

When you really think about it, there's so many reasons NOT to believe.

1. Babies born with handicaps. Why? Is the baby being punished? The parents?  (Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

2. Babies that are 'still-born'. What was the point of the whole exercise. Also, do they now automatically go to heaven, whilst the rest of us have to earn our ways there through maybe a 100 years or so of various tests of our worthiness?  So how do they get this favouritism. Or is the mother being punished. Was the baby just a 'prop' in 'God's' plan? 

(Aah, but ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

3. The 'World Trade Center' bastardry ... . So many fine people wiped out as though they were mere cockroaches. Intelligent, ambitious etc; etc; .. who knows what plans many of them had. There may have been the odd person amongst them that 'God' didn't want around ... so thousands of good people had to go? Then there's all the families/friends grief, children who've lost parents ... all these people whose lives are torn apart forever. Myself, fortunately I knew nobody involved personally. But like many spectators around the world, I was stunned/shocked/appalled/ ..ANGRY  >:( >:( >:( >:(  as hell !!! (if such a place existed .... maybe this is it?).  The world has changed since 9/11. Our mortality has been brought home big time, not to mention the impermanence of our monuments. As Kansas once sang, 'All we are is dust in the wind'.  Millions/billions of years from now, the sun will become a red giant, envelop the earth, and incinerate any remaining 'monuments' we might have erected. We really are insignificant in this mind bogglingly immense universe.

So why did the 'World Trade Centre' / other major disasters around the world  happen  to so many innocent people?

( Ours is not to reason why ... 'God moves in mysterious ways ..... )

Where was 'God' in all this? Spectating helplessly? He's in a battle with the devil, and like Superman, his resources are over-taxed, he can't be everywhere at once, so the devil won this one ..... and all those other one's with the still-borns/handicapped, etc; etc. Maybe he had more important things to do, like take sides with a sportsman who invokes god, thanks him afterwards for helping him beat his opponents ( what a joke ....!). >:(

You know, when you really think about it, this famous riddle by an ancient greek called epicurus sums it up:

The Riddle of Epicurus

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


Why do we have god? Here's my thoughts. In pre-history when cave men were about, they couldn't make sense of the elements, which they were at the mercy of. Lightning, earthquakes, stars, birth, death ... so much wonderous/mysterious. A huge hostile world. So like children they conjured up something beyond themselves, which they felt they needed to appease, through sacrifices, prayer,temples etc.  Years later when conventional religions were established, the corrupt church hierarchy saw it as a way of controlling the masses. When you're rich/powerful, you can keep the poorer/downtrodden at bay by the dogma. Let them think that they will be rewarded in heaven, the after-life. Ah yes, rellgion.. the 'opiate of the masses'.

Persecute/torture, boil alive those who disagree with your version of religion ... the 'heretics'. What a load of nonsense, that the god of christianity is the real one, not the one of Islam. So, you're a good person, do everything right, but don't go to heaven because you believed in the wrong god? What about if you were born on a desert island, never heard of any religions? Do you go to heaven?
What's heaven like? Are we going to be hanging about with the cavemen too (& all other eras?). Will your dog be there? If you were happily married to 3 wives who also had other husbands, who's going to be with who? What if you loved somebody, but they went to hell. How heavenly will heaven be for you without them? How old will you be?

Back to why we invented god. Self-preservation. Survival! ... which we as human beings have as our number one bit of programming. Procreation is one form of this . We can't get past the idea that afterwards is an eternal nothing. We learn all this information in our lives, become so smart, for it only to be wiped out on a personal level? No, it can't be. So we clutch at straws. Our egos can't handle it. You might as well believe in the 'tooth fairy' as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's kind of ironic that the comedian 'Dave Allen', whose religious jokes I enjoyed a lot, died about the same time as Pope John Paul II. I wonder if that pope and he are enjoying a joke together (I doubt it). Dave was always taking the piss out of the popes in his  sketches. I think he got it right when he observed, 'why would you want to go heaven & sit around listening to harp music all day? Let me go to hell where they have wild women/action etc' (not a quote, just the gist).

I know there's a lot of holes in the 'big-bang' theory and other non- god explanations of how we got here. Nobody can give the definitive answer at this stage. Still, that doesn't mean we have to 'throw out the baby with the bath water', and go back to invoking god as the origin ... that's just a 'cop-out'. Given enough centuries/scientific discoveries, I reckon many generations from now, we will have that answer. Knowledge has escalated at an enormous rate over the last century, so let's have confidence we will find this stuff out (if we don't blow ourselves up b4 then). In the meantime, when disasters strike, the flock of the naive will comfort themselves in their churches, at funerals, with those words of solace from the institutions of the clergy. Ah, yet again, 'religion, the opiate ....'

I'm sorry, but we're just intelligent apes. VERY intelligent apes. Nothing more, nothing less. Hope the apes go to heaven too.


I agree here.  It makes much more sense to think God is an invention than to actually think he's real.  I do think our consciousness continues to exist after death, but I don't think it's really "us" anymore; we become assimilated into someone (or something) else.

As to what I think "God" is, I think God is equivalent to existence, and that humans are just parts of the one conscious energy that each one perceives incorrectly as a separate being because of their bodies.  A ghost is this piece of conscious energy when it still has the memory of the body.

I read every bit of your post and appeciate your opinion, I don't agree but I know we'll continue to have a good time together on this website. Take care my friend  8)


You know after such a long, well thought out post.. couldn't you do a bit better than that?  :-\\

Wow, that's really well written and emotional.  Here's my review:


Most of my family is Christian (Catholic, mostly) so until I was 13 I was Christian.  However, by my pre-teens I started being annoyed with the fact that Christians believed animals to be basically walking sticks of meat and that they were so anti-fun and hating of the Earth.  So I decided to become an Agnostic.  At first, I felt like I no longer needed to be a moral person, because there was no longer any reason for me to be, but in time I realized that being good is a reward in itself, so I've been fighting demons in trying to again find a reason to be a decent person and do great things.  


It's a mystery. The biggest copout ever.

I agree: would a loving God create people that would live a life of suffering?  Either God is a d*ck like us, or the more likely explanation: the White Man in the Sky doesn't exist.

A Catholic would tell you that God permits "evil" because "we have free will", and to not do so would make us no better than robots.  However, I disagree here: yes, people have free will, but God could prevent bad things from happening if he made it our nature to be good-willed.  Choice is an illusion, it's simply what we're driven to do by our feelings.  We're all just actors in a play.




I look at God as the perfect dad, He lets me do whatever I want, and doesn't control me or tell me what to do. He doesn't force me to obey Him and He does not force me to believe in Him or to love Him. He want's the best for me and for me to come to Him when I'm lonely or afraid so He can give me something this world can't give. Peace in all circumstances, even with evil and suffering,and death.
I f*ck up, I get grumpy, I do bad things, I say bad things to people, I'm mean to people and sometimes get mad at Him for things not working out the way I'd like them to. But He stays the same, steadfast loving Father who forgives me, cleans me up, and helps me feel ok and always welcomes me when I return to Him. He's there for me 24/7, nobody else will commit to that kind of availabilty. So maybe I'm living in a world of make-believe, got a great imagination and have brainwashed myself into this belief. To me, He's as real and personal as anyone I know. I'm gonna stick with this whacked-out belief all the rest of my days.  To me, without Him, I wouldn't need to be much more than an ape. It's no wonder people have low self esteem and no hope. If thats our outlook on life and that we compare human beings to apes and cockroaches, than that's more depressing than believing in a made up God. I'm going to the PPG now, to have some fun  :D


You know after such a long, well thought out post.. couldn't you do a bit better than that?  :-\\
so sorry I dissapointed you, by the time I get to the 3rd paragraph I've forgotten the previous 2 because I really have a hard time remembering what I've read. and truthfully, that was too long for my attention span, so don't get all critical on me Alex because I know I there are some things about you that you could be better at, so don't start pointing fingers.

Hi again Bad finger fan,

My apologies for mis-representing you, i.e; :


God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof
we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***

(which I attributed to you)

your reponse:

I didn't say this

first let me say that all the quotes above my post were not mine.  God works in mysterious ways.  Blah, sh!t, woof woof,  " we're talking a God here that really doesn't give a proverbial flying f***      didn't come from me. none of those were from me. I was just using them to make a point that the non christian sentiment was quite strong and those were some of the things that were said to me and others, but I didn't author that quote, so don't credit me with that.


I read every bit of your post and appeciate your opinion, I don't agree but I know we'll continue to have a good time together on this website. Take care my friend  8)

Anyway, I got the wrong end of the stick re your opinion. We'll agree to disagree on the existence of god, but no reason to fall out. Many christians are really very nice people, & in some ways I feel guilty for trying to rob them of something that brings comfort /hope to them. Like trying to take a 'teddy bear' away from a child ... but please don't think I'm now being patronising .. it's just an analogy (I don't mean you/believers are a child/children .. just the comfort aspect). In some ways I envy people who have that faith .. the world must appear less bleak. However, I can't re-embrace that faith in religion, because for me, I'd be compromising my integrity, my rational thinking processes. For me personally, I would be 'copping out'/ 'clutching at straws'.

As for Donnie Darko, you said:

Either God is a d*ck like us, or the more likely explanation: the White Man in the Sky doesn't exist.

Let me tell you my friend, I've changed my opinion on this .. I've had a 'revelation' ... god DOES exist, and she's black!  ;D

Hi again Bad finger fan,

My apologies for mis-representing you, i.e; :

(which I attributed to you)

your reponse:

Anyway, I got the wrong end of the stick re your opinion. We'll agree to disagree on the existence of god, but no reason to fall out. Many christians are really very nice people, & in some ways I feel guilty for trying to rob them of something that brings comfort /hope to them. Like trying to take a 'teddy bear' away from a child ... but please don't think I'm now being patronising .. it's just an analogy (I don't mean you/believers are a child/children .. just the comfort aspect). In some ways I envy people who have that faith .. the world must appear less bleak. However, I can't re-embrace that faith in religion, because for me, I'd be compromising my integrity, my rational thinking processes. For me personally, I would be 'copping out'/ 'clutching at straws'.

As for Donnie Darko, you said:

Let me tell you my friend, I've changed my opinion on this .. I've had a 'revelation' ... god DOES exist, and she's black!  ;D


;D

Anyway though, I have at times been jealous of Christians (it's like still believe in Santa Claus, you know: you don't know he/He's not real, so he's real to you) but I don't want to turn back because I feel I'd just kidding myself and besides, if they're right I'm going to hell since I don't deserve nor really desire Heaven, so what's the point?

Hi again Bad finger fan,

My apologies for mis-representing you, i.e; :

(which I attributed to you)

your reponse:

Anyway, I got the wrong end of the stick re your opinion. We'll agree to disagree on the existence of god, but no reason to fall out. Many christians are really very nice people, & in some ways I feel guilty for trying to rob them of something that brings comfort /hope to them. Like trying to take a 'teddy bear' away from a child ... but please don't think I'm now being patronising .. it's just an analogy (I don't mean you/believers are a child/children .. just the comfort aspect). In some ways I envy people who have that faith .. the world must appear less bleak. However, I can't re-embrace that faith in religion, because for me, I'd be compromising my integrity, my rational thinking processes. For me personally, I would be 'copping out'/ 'clutching at straws'.

As for Donnie Darko, you said:

Let me tell you my friend, I've changed my opinion on this .. I've had a 'revelation' ... god DOES exist, and she's black!  ;D
actually, I like that teddy bear thing and you get all the credit.  I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, you were not patronizing or critical of me personally and you have articulated your sentiments very well and I wish I could get as many thoughts out at once, but I am so slow sometimes. We all come from different places, different experiences and upbringing and culture and I like the diversity. I don't wanna be around just people like me. I must get back to the fun area PPP  see ya there

**and El_Duderino, ease up on me, I'm an old dog that don't bark much but I still have teeth   ;D

actually, I like that teddy bear thing and you get all the credit.  I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, you were not patronizing or critical of me personally and you have articulated your sentiments very well and I wish I could get as many thoughts out at once, but I am so slow sometimes. We all come from different places, different experiences and upbringing and culture and I like the diversity. I don't wanna be around just people like me. I must get back to the fun area PPP  see ya there

**and El_Duderino, ease up on me, I'm an old dog that don't bark much but I still have teeth   ;D


;D 50s isn't old though.  It could be the middle of your life ;)

;D 50s isn't old though.  It could be the middle of your life ;)
Easy for you to say  ;D  speaking of 50, I still need to plan that bash I was gonna have, but have decided to wait until it gets warmer.    off topic  :(

To me, it is quite the opposite: attacking someone because of their race is narrow-minded and usually just plain stupid.  A person's race is something they're born into, and have no way of changing; there are no race-based generalizations that actually hold true, so there isn't anything to attack.

Religion, OTOH, is something you choose to believe.  Of course, there is a difference between attacking someone because of their religion and attacking the religion itself.  The problem that I (and some other atheistic types here) have is that too many religious people construe an attack on their religion as a personal attack on them.  But if they want to go round believing in ridiculous sky-faeries and mindless idiocies, then let them: but what seriously pisses me off is when a religion that has a long history of intolerance and suppression of any divergent opinion starts crying foul when a tiny minority try pointing out how just plain implausible and mutually contradictory its basic tenets are.


SO that is your justification to discriminate and slander others.  Because they do not share your belief system, they are fair game.

Obviously people in here just do not get what I am saying.  So let me say it loud and clear:

Open your freaking minds and look at what you are doing!

Most of you claim to be Liberals and Democrats.  You claim to be the group that includes everybody, and wants everybody in the world to get along and put their differences behind them

Yet, you are the same ones that attack people because of your religious faith.  Am I the only one in here that sees what bullshhh this is?  You go around and try to tear apart personal beliefs of people, then wonder why they attack you.  And remember, I would say things like this about any religion that is being attacked, I could not care less that it happens to be Christianity.

Many times in here I have seen you enlightened individuals refer to members of the LDS church as "Morons", and I am the only one that says anything.  You bash all levels of the Christian faith, and that is perfectly fine with most of you in here.  In fact, you even pat each other on the back, and egg each other on.  "Yea, you are so right, keep going".

Tolerance is Tolerance.  Intolerance is Intolerance.  Nihilism is nothing but discrimination disguised in a cloak called "Enlightenment".

But you do not accept religion, and therefore anything you do is acceptable.  Guess what, you stand in good company there.  It is the exact same reasoning the Klan and Nazis use to justify their actions.

They consider those who are not as them as "inhuman", and "below their consideration".  Anything they do or say against these "subhuman" and "wrongly taught" individuals is OK.  After all, they arer only Jews, or Jehova's Witnesses, or Communists.  They do not think/believe/look/act like us.  Since they are not one of us, they are outsiders so we can do what we want.

If any of you ever go to Los Angeles, please check out the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and the Museum Of Tolerance.  But I doubt it would do any good.  Most of those I am talking are so sure that they are "accepting of others", they simply can't discriminate.

So go on and live in your little fantasy worlds.  Congratulate each other on how accepting you are of everybody as you attack others simply because their belief is not the same as yours.

God, how you all make me so sick.

And before I am blasted as making attacks, I am not attacking any individuals in this post, but am attacking a mindset.  This is the same mindset that has allowed atrocities like what happened in Yugoslavia to happen for thousands of years.  If you have this mindset of intolerance and inability to accept others for who they are, then it is OK, because I do mean to attack you.

^I don't think a good Liberal will look down on a person for their religion, or discriminate against them.  We tend to think religion is not logical, but we don't believe in discriminating against them, as long as their beliefs aren't oppressive and robbing of other people's rights.  For instance, I'm all down with building your church and praying to your sheep in the sky, it's when they ban TV or make women cut their hair that I'm against the mere practice.  I think religion is old-fashioned and I'd like to see organized forms of faith go away, but I certainly think they have their right to be religious as long as they don't take away the liberties of others through their faith; I think most Liberals would agree with me here.

^I don't think a good Liberal will look down on a person for their religion, or discriminate against them.  We tend to think religion is not logical, but we don't believe in discriminating against them, as long as their beliefs aren't oppressive and robbing of other people's rights.  For instance, I'm all down with building your church and praying to your sheep in the sky, it's when they ban TV or make women cut their hair that I'm against the mere practice.  I think religion is old-fashioned and I'd like to see organized forms of faith go away, but I certainly think they have their right to be religious as long as they don't take away the liberties of others through their faith; I think most Liberals would agree with me here.


I'm a liberal and I look down on religions, but not necessarily their followers depending upon other things.

SO that is your justification to discriminate and slander others.  Because they do not share your belief system, they are fair game.

Discriminate and slander?  Bollocks.  Just because I hate it when people base their whole existance on contradictory wishful thinking...


Most of you claim to be Liberals and Democrats.  You claim to be the group that includes everybody, and wants everybody in the world to get along and put their differences behind them

I've never claimed anything of the sort: and if you hadn't noticed the vast majority of people who can't (or usually won't) put their differences behind them are the closed-minded religious types: just because you are happy to take everyone else's fantasies at face value doesn't mean we have to as well.


Yet, you are the same ones that attack people because of your religious faith.  Am I the only one in here that sees what bullshhh this is?  You go around and try to tear apart personal beliefs of people, then wonder why they attack you.  And remember, I would say things like this about any religion that is being attacked, I could not care less that it happens to be Christianity.

Because of *my* religious faith?  Sorry, pal, I don't have one.  You're getting your arguments totally arse about face in this one.  Again.


But you do not accept religion, and therefore anything you do is acceptable.  Guess what, you stand in good company there.  It is the exact same reasoning the Klan and Nazis use to justify their actions.

WRONG.  On all counts: the Klan and Nazis *BOTH* used "god" to justify their atrocities.


They consider those who are not as them as "inhuman", and "below their consideration".  Anything they do or say against these "subhuman" and "wrongly taught" individuals is OK.  After all, they arer only Jews, or Jehova's Witnesses, or Communists.  They do not think/believe/look/act like us.  Since they are not one of us, they are outsiders so we can do what we want.

Oh, puhlease... You seem to be following one non sequitur with another.  OK, so you're angry that there's more than one atheist arguing against you: why not try and actually find some argument against us, then?  Except that there ain't any... other than quoting the bible, and don't even get me started on that :(


So go on and live in your little fantasy worlds.  Congratulate each other on how accepting you are of everybody as you attack others simply because their belief is not the same as yours.

God, how you all make me so sick.

And before I am blasted as making attacks, I am not attacking any individuals in this post, but am attacking a mindset.  This is the same mindset that has allowed atrocities like what happened in Yugoslavia to happen for thousands of years.  If you have this mindset of intolerance and inability to accept others for who they are, then it is OK, because I do mean to attack you.

OK.. a question for you: how often has this mindset occurred in the arguing atheist fraternity?  And how often in the "god-fearing" religious one?  Your arguments are so flawed it's hard to know where to start in pointing out how inaccurate they are.

Discriminate and slander?  Bollocks.  Just because I hate it when people base their whole existance on contradictory wishful thinking...
I've never claimed anything of the sort: and if you hadn't noticed the vast majority of people who can't (or usually won't) put their differences behind them are the closed-minded religious types: just because you are happy to take everyone else's fantasies at face value doesn't mean we have to as well.
Because of *my* religious faith?  Sorry, pal, I don't have one.  You're getting your arguments totally arse about face in this one.  Again.
WRONG.  On all counts: the Klan and Nazis *BOTH* used "god" to justify their atrocities.
Oh, puhlease... You seem to be following one non sequitur with another.  OK, so you're angry that there's more than one atheist arguing against you: why not try and actually find some argument against us, then?  Except that there ain't any... other than quoting the bible, and don't even get me started on that :(
OK.. a question for you: how often has this mindset occurred in the arguing atheist fraternity?  And how often in the "god-fearing" religious one?  Your arguments are so flawed it's hard to know where to start in pointing out how inaccurate they are.


Bravo, signore! :) 8)

I'm not comparing Badfinger-fan to a Nazi or saying hes immoral because he has religion.  I'm criticizing his religion itself, difference.  However Mushroom the irony here is that its you attacking me personally for my belief, which is organized religions make no sense and are distructive.

distructive.

Is that a combination of "disruptive" and "destructive"?  ;)

Is that a combination of "disruptive" and "destructive"?  ;)


;D

*destructive

Discriminate and slander?  Bollocks.  Just because I hate it when people base their whole existance on contradictory wishful thinking...




And the funny thing is, she later became a Mormon.  :D

I think you might have used one too many "m"s ;)


Oh yes, how on earth could I ever have seen that as either slanderous, discrimination, or even just plain insulting?  I simply did not realize it was "Politically Correct" to call the members of an entire religion "Morons".

I'm a liberal and I look down on religions, but not necessarily their followers depending upon other things.


If they're decent people I'm fine with their faiths; it's when they force others into their beliefs that I think their beliefs can't be tolerated.

If they're decent people I'm fine with their faiths; it's when they force others into their beliefs that I think their beliefs can't be tolerated.


I can be fine with them, but never with their faith. 

I can be fine with them, but never with their faith. 


well yeah, I'm not a fan of their faith, but if it's tolerant of other faiths I think it should be tolerated.

I think you might have used one too many "m"s ;)


Oh yes, how on earth could I ever have seen that as either slanderous, discrimination, or even just plain insulting?  I simply did not realize it was "Politically Correct" to call the members of an entire religion "Morons".

Your capacity for overstatement is ridiculous: you were describing somebody who went from "atheist wiccan" to "mormon" ... it was a dig at one person, not the whole mormonic religion.  Discriminatory?  Nope.  Slanderous?  Only if you can prove it was false.  And if it's considered politically correct to do something, then you can be pretty well assured that I'm going to do something different just as a point of principle.

well yeah, I'm not a fan of their faith, but if it's tolerant of other faiths I think it should be tolerated.


I agree. Im not gonna force anyone to believe anything.

Your capacity for overstatement is ridiculous: you were describing somebody who went from "atheist wiccan" to "mormon" ... it was a dig at one person, not the whole mormonic religion.  Discriminatory?  Nope.  Slanderous?  Only if you can prove it was false.  And if it's considered politically correct to do something, then you can be pretty well assured that I'm going to do something different just as a point of principle.


Oh yes, that is why the LDS (Mormon) church is so commonly called "Morons" in here.  This was not the first time I have seen the reference.


The Mormon gospel was revealed to Joseph Smith by the Angel Moroni, so shouldn't the Mormons rightfully call themselves the "Morons"?  We've got one who fits that description up on Beacon Hill!


I seem to remember that as part of a trivia question before the board was reformatted.  The question had something to do with a song with Utah in it, and they were refered to as "Morons".  And I am sure it will happen even more in the future.

Wait.. so this Angel was an Italian?  Was he from Brooklyn?

WHAT?? ???

I'm sorry but thats not true at all.  I have yet to meet an atheist who doesn't have a negative view of religion in general and dislike it. 

I know I hate it.


i too hate religion. however i do not attempt to convert people. if the subject comes up i put forth a decent argument. however, trying to convert people is useless. big time believers can not be changed. they're too stubern. 

i too hate religion. however i do not attempt to convert people. if the subject comes up i put forth a decent argument. however, trying to convert people is useless. big time believers can not be changed. they're too stubern. 


exactly.

Why would you care to change a believer, aren't they free to live and believe as they want, just as a non-believer should have the same freedom to not believe. big time non-believers can not be changed, they're too stubern.  ;)    I would not try to convert anyone. I look at a person as soil and God's word as seed, you hear something somebody said or read or quoted, it's sprinkled in your mind and maybe it will root and grow, maybe not. I can't do anything but plant a seed, someone else may water and God causes the growth if that person is open to having God reveal Himself to them.  I'm a not stubborn believer, I'm just as convinced there is a God as you people are that there isn't one.

exactly.
you should read some stories JRR Tolkien tells about why he believes in God. Very interesting. i only looked him up because I knew he was also a man of strong faith and believed all the amazing biblical stories and I was curious how a great author and learned man like Tolkien and his good friend CS Lewis would would answer  this thread  Jesus: Messiah, Man or Myth ?  and I've concluded they would answer Jesus: Messiah, Man or Myth ?  Yes, he was all 3 and that's my answer too.

I've now read this whole topic, and I have to say, Philbo, you make some very powerful points. It's hard for me, looking at things with an open mind, using all of my 'god' given rationality to disagree with anything you've said. I reckon if you want to believe that black is white, or white is black, ... it doesn't give a damn. It will remain whatever colour it was. The truth doesn't give a damn what YOU  think. Tell the truth, the way you see it, but use the faculties that distinguish human beings from the rest of the animal kingdom, to discern that truth. This is a forum for debate. Nevertheless, it's extremely unlikely that the believers here are going to convert the non-believers, or vice-versa, for the reasons you and I (& others here too ) have alluded to. As long as we all respect each other, are polite,  I see no reason for anyone to get pissed off at someone else for merely expressing their views. We do have freedom of speech don't we?

Are we atheists meant to feel bad/guilty that we are apparently trying to chip away at your 'belief system', something that gives you joy/comfort. I suggest you tune out of this topic if you're worried about that. As I said, neither of us is going to 'reform' the other!

If you really want a rational discussion, how about tackling the points I made? But let's face it, this is all rather a pointless exercise. Have a nice day.  :)

I've now read this whole topic, and I have to say, Philbo, you make some very powerful points. It's hard for me, looking at things with an open mind, using all of my 'god' given rationality to disagree with anything you've said. I reckon if you want to believe that black is white, or white is black, ... it doesn't give a damn. It will remain whatever colour it was. The truth doesn't give a damn what YOU  think. Tell the truth, the way you see it, but use the faculties that distinguish human beings from the rest of the animal kingdom, to discern that truth. This is a forum for debate. Nevertheless, it's extremely unlikely that the believers here are going to convert the non-believers, or vice-versa, for the reasons you and I (& others here too ) have alluded to. As long as we all respect each other, are polite,  I see no reason for anyone to get pissed off at someone else for merely expressing their views. We do have freedom of speech don't we?

Are we atheists meant to feel bad/guilty that we are apparently trying to chip away at your 'belief system', something that gives you joy/comfort. I suggest you tune out of this topic if you're worried about that. As I said, neither of us is going to 'reform' the other!

If you really want a rational discussion, how about tackling the points I made? But let's face it, this is all rather a pointless exercise. Have a nice day.  :)


Well you know what they say, you die if you worry, you die if you don't.  After all, what will you gain from knowing something, aside from some peace of mind? :)

How did we all get to discussing religion? I mean, it may be Pesach, but...

Well you know what they say, you die if you worry, you die if you don't.  After all, what will you gain from knowing something, aside from some peace of mind? :)


I view it this way:

Death is inevitable, and our time here is limited so why waste too much of it worrying about what comes next? I'll find out when I get there(or not- which in that case is nothing to fear it will be painless).  For now I think I'll focus on THIS life and making it better/enjoyable.

I believe in death like an ice cream sundae. It shouldn't have nuts on top and should include lots of toppings.

I believe in death like an ice cream sundae. It shouldn't have nuts on top and should include lots of toppings.


I don't get it. ???

Some more thoughts:

As I said, regardless of whether you think a colour is a certain colour, it is whatever it is. So, god either exists, or he doesn't.

If the believers are right, they can have a good laugh when they get to 'heaven' (with the cavemen, robinson crusoe, maybe Philbo, El-Dude, Donnie, me,  Dave Allen, etc; etc;) & say 'See I told you so!'

What I really hate, is if we're right ( & you know what I think), we won't get that same opportunity! Maybe that's why we're trying to do it in this life?

Some of  these believers may think that we shouldn't go there, because we didn't believe, whereas they did ... they got it right, we were wrong. If that's the attitude, well what a crock. How 'Christian' is that? I reckon if god does exist, and he's a nice guy like we're led to believe, you will go to heaven if you were good in this life, regardless of whether or not you got it wrong. Did caveman know about the god of the bible? Are they automatically excluded? The still-borns ( 'props')  .... in heaven or hell?

One thing I find hard to stomach, is this idea. Let's say you're on death-row for murdering/ torturing 100's of people. The chaplain comes to you at the last minute, you renounce your wicked ways. Now you go to heaven, whereas an athiest who's been thoroughly decent, altruistic, done so much good in this life .... well, apparently they're going to hell.

Personally, like that song by Belinda Carlisle says, I think 'heaven is a place on earth', and many of us live through our own private hells. In some ways, as I've said before, I envy the believers, but I can't throw in the towel on what I see to be the truth.

:)

Really I don't care whether He is a Messiah, Man, or a Myth....I am just happy to have Him in my life.  ;)

Really I don't care whether He is a Messiah, Man, or a Myth....I am just happy to have Him in my life.  ;)


As long as it makes you feel good and you don't impose it on anyone(which you don't) then that is all that matters.

Really I don't care whether He is a Messiah, Man, or a Myth....I am just happy to have Him in my life.  ;)


If it makes you happy, that's all that counts :)

I don't get it. ???


Add your own meaning to it and the light will come to you.

Buddy!!!

http://www.dogma-movie.com/pics/church/images/buddychrist1sm.jpg

Buddy!!!

http://www.dogma-movie.com/pics/church/images/buddychrist1sm.jpg


Does the King have a brother?  ;D

Does the King have a brother?  ;D


;D ;D ;D

I looove the buddy.  and the king.

Buddy!!!

http://www.dogma-movie.com/pics/church/images/buddychrist1sm.jpg
Is this the Jesus action figure with real gliding action?  8)  I had one

Is this the Jesus action figure with real gliding action?  8)  I had one


I have the Buddy Christ action figure.  Really.  Well....it's a plastic statue really, no action involved. 

http://www.EvolveFISH.com/fish/media/T-CheesusChrust_Front.gif