Strange question. I don't think it's really a big issue...it's not like there really is a lack of space in countries like the U.S. Maybe in Europe old cemeteries coming in conflict in other uses might be an issue. Don't really know what to say on the issue, probably best to just keep the current sites, and if we need to built gravesites, built them in semi-rural areas or something.

I personally think Graveyards should always exist, crematoria are not for me.

This is a pic of Highgate Cemetery in North London, some very old graves here inc. Karl Marx
http://www.irational.org/heath/london/highgatecemetry.gif



http://ukfur.net/vexen/photos/2002%20Mar%2012%20-%20Highgate%202.jpg

Not at all!  I like walking around cemeteries and wondering about the people buried there.  It's just not the same at columnbariums.

I personally think Graveyards should always exist, crematoria are not for me.

This is a pic of Highgate Cemetary in North London, some very old graves here inc. Karl Marx
http://www.irational.org/heath/london/highgatecemetry.gif



http://ukfur.net/vexen/photos/2002%20Mar%2012%20-%20Highgate%202.jpg


Hehehe, thanks for the heads up, that'll soon be desecrated.

Not at all!  I like walking around cemeteries and wondering about the people buried there.  It's just not the same at columnbariums.


Me too, I just love the peace and tranquility of being in those places.

One cemetery in the US I was totally impressed by was The Arlington one in Washington DC - it is soo orderly and neat.

I also love walking round cemetaries and looking at the gravestones, some are so beautiful with carved angels or celtic crosses.

I would also say from a historical point of view look at all the stuff that has been learned about our ancestors from excavating graves and examining the bones and the grave goods.

I personally think Graveyards should always exist, crematoria are not for me.

This is a pic of Highgate Cemetary in North London, some very old graves here inc. Karl Marx



When I went to England(way back in 1987) Highgate was my cemetery to visit.  It was great! They only allowed us to go
in the old portion on a guided tour which was fine cause the guy walked us around and showed us the high points. There are
a lot of good ones here in New England.  This is at Mount Auburn Cemetery-The first "Garden Cemetery" in the USA

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b0/Mount_Auburn_Cemeter_-_June_2005.JPG/250px-Mount_Auburn_Cemeter_-_June_2005.JPG

I don't want more building. and I think the meaning of memorials has been cheapened by our culture.
I have no trouble returning to the ashes from whence I came (opting for the viking funeral).

Some cultures see the people going to one temple for all purposes...grieving, celebrating...
the corpse is returned to the earth.

I won't care. I'll be dead. but I don't want to take up space. you can have my space.

I don't want more building. and I think the meaning of memorials has been cheapened by our culture.
I have no trouble returning to the ashes from whence I came (opting for the viking funeral).

Some cultures see the people going to one temple for all purposes...grieving, celebrating...
the corpse is returned to the earth.

I won't care. I'll be dead. but I don't want to take up space. you can have my space.


Can we put you on a boat and float you out in to the Hudson engulffed in flames?

Can we put you on a boat and float you out in to the Hudson engulffed in flames?


You know you can.
That would be ideal.

You know you can.
That would be ideal.


Better use a wooden boat, no plastic dinghy.

Better use a wooden boat, no plastic dinghy.


Dude, my Hudson is polluted enough with out your melting petroleum by-products into it...
I"ll build my own boat.

Dude, my Hudson is polluted enough with out your melting petroleum by-products into it...
I"ll build my own boat.


I'd worry about it sinking, but I don't suppose it really matters..

I'd worry about it sinking, but I don't suppose it really matters..


Dude, I"m , like, genetically engineered for boat building.
and being buried at sea.

I used to be attracted to the cemetery in my youth, we had stupid picnicks there where everyone dressed in white and we drank wine and toasted the dead.
now I don't think our culture sees the same meaning in the idea of marking your gravesite.
I could as easily take a loved one to a place in the woods that I like and put them there.

Way back in the days.


I knew it. I knew it the minute you used that old Beastie Boys avatar. LOL. It's all good though.  ;)

In a word, YES.

I would never say cemeteries are a "waste of space". Like many here, I would want to have the opportunity to visit a loved one's grave or vice versa. Sure, when I'm dead, I won't care, but i'll bet my family will give a damn what happens to me. Having the chance to "talk" with a lost family member and reflect is a healthy part of the grieving process, and not having that would be a huge loss to all parties involved.

On a related note, I think paving over an old, forgotten cemetery is a despicable thing to do, even if there no living relatives to maintain the plots. There should be a respect for the people buried there. Of course, there are creeps out there who like to wail on tombstones with baseball bats and overturn memorials. Sick stuff. 

When I go, I wanna be cremated...makes more sense to me!

The concern for the dead is the thing that makes "Modern Man" and Neanderthal different from every hominid that came before.  Before that, dead people were just left where they died, unless it was in an inconvient place.  Then, they were simply carted away and tossed out like garbage.

And there is more then just "decency" involved.  In many areas of the world, tombs are very elaborate, and often gathering places for the family.  This lets the survivors gather and tell stories about those that passed before them

Myself, I think Okinawa has the most elaborate system.  The tombs are rather large, and hold many generations.  In ancient times, they were disentered after a few years, and the bones were then placed in a jar.  In modern times, this has been replaced with cremation.  But the family tombs remain.  They are called "Turtle Back" tombs, but the form is a representation of a womb.  And outside, you find benches for family members to gather.  In fact, there is a "Day Of The Dead" every year, where a great many families go to their family tombs and give reverence to those that passed before them.

If you ever get a chance to drive around Okinawa, you will see thousands of these tombs.  They are scattered all around the island, not just in cemetaries.

Myself, I plan on being interred in the Andersonville Veterans Cemetary.

When I went to England(way back in 1987) Highgate was my cemetery to visit.  It was great! They only allowed us to go
in the old portion on a guided tour which was fine cause the guy walked us around and showed us the high points. There are
a lot of good ones here in New England.  This is at Mount Auburn Cemetery-The first "Garden Cemetery" in the USA

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b0/Mount_Auburn_Cemeter_-_June_2005.JPG/250px-Mount_Auburn_Cemeter_-_June_2005.JPG


Yeah Highgate is just lovely to walk around, very atmospheric, gotta admit I was a bit spooked in some of the more hidden Gothic parts  (I was on my own) and hurried to join up with others again.  :-[
That pic of a New England cemetery is lovely, and very similar to Highgate infact, except maybe the greenery/foliage is more vivid over in the US, it looks so in the snap.

I knew it. I knew it the minute you used that old Beastie Boys avatar. LOL. It's all good though.  ;)


;D

Yup, Full_House_Fan and DevoRule are both me.  Or at least the same mind that voices Donnie Darko voiced them.

The concern for the dead is the thing that makes "Modern Man" and Neanderthal different from every hominid that came before. 


Err, I think that would be civilization, language, agriculture etc.

Not whether or not we bury people.

I hope you're not trying to insinuate that it is somehow barbaric to not bury people, give memorial services etc.

^I think only famous people should be buried.  I'm against public cemeteries, IMO if you want a graveyard it should be on private land.

I often tell people that when I die, I want to have my corpse taken to Sea World and dumped into the shark tank, where the sharks can devour me while my friends and family watch.

I often tell people that when I die, I want to have my corpse taken to Sea World and dumped into the shark tank, where the sharks can devour me while my friends and family watch.


LOL.

My uncle told me my grandpa used to tell them when he died just put him out on the curb and the garbage men would pick him up. ;D

But when he actually died, they buried him, with a religious service. And the man was always an atheist.

That's why I am going to have it in writing that I wanna be cremated, and no memorial service..

I often tell people that when I die, I want to have my corpse taken to Sea World and dumped into the shark tank, where the sharks can devour me while my friends and family watch.


Your's is good, But i wanna be shot out of a cannon.

Err, I think that would be civilization, language, agriculture etc.

Not whether or not we bury people.

I hope you're not trying to insinuate that it is somehow barbaric to not bury people, give memorial services etc.


Not at all!  I was speaking purely from an anthropological and archaeology standpoint.

When going back through all of our "ancestors", Neanderthal was the only other hominid that gave any consideration to the dead.  Otheres may well have grieved, and we see that in modern primates like Chimps.  But once that grieving is over with, the body is simply discarded.

I was not trying to say that it was barbaric to not do so, simply showing that the very act makes us unique from almost all of our ancestors, and helps make us "human".

Personally, I think that is a personal choice, and is not my right to promote or criticize somebody for theirs.

Your's is good, But i wanna be shot out of a cannon.


When I first started to think about this topic, I had the very same thought.

In one of George Carlin's earlier works, he made a comment that he did not want to be burried, he wanted to be blown up.

*BOOM*
Look at him go!

Not at all!  I was speaking purely from an anthropological and archaeology standpoint.

When going back through all of our "ancestors", Neanderthal was the only other hominid that gave any consideration to the dead.  Otheres may well have grieved, and we see that in modern primates like Chimps.  But once that grieving is over with, the body is simply discarded.

I was not trying to say that it was barbaric to not do so, simply showing that the very act makes us unique from almost all of our ancestors, and helps make us "human".

Personally, I think that is a personal choice, and is not my right to promote or criticize somebody for theirs.


Oh ok, I agree.

If people really want to be buried that's okay. I'm just like Donnie Darko on it, I don't personally want to be buried and I feel that public land shouldn't really be used for it..

The only exception to that should be Veterans' cemeteries I think

Your's is good, But i wanna be shot out of a cannon.
What would you want them to aim you at?

I guess hundreds of years ago when the historic graveyards where formed, the need for space wasn't at such a premium as it seems to be now.


There's been a huge Worldwide population explosion and people wanna close/block the cemeteries cos' there's not enough space for them to run about.

Your's is good, But i wanna be shot out of a cannon.


Like Hunter Thompson this from Wikipedia


On August 20, 2005, in a private ceremony, Thompson's ashes were fired from a cannon atop a 153-foot tower of his own design (in the shape of a double-thumbed fist clutching a peyote button) to the tune of Bob Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man," known to be the song most-respected by the late writer. Red, white, blue and green fireworks were launched along with his ashes.

When I first started to think about this topic, I had the very same thought.

In one of George Carlin's earlier works, he made a comment that he did not want to be burried, he wanted to be blown up.

*BOOM*
Look at him go!
I had an uncle and aunt up in Montana who were into competitive target shooting and buffalo hunting with flintlock rifles, and when he died about 10-15 years ago he was cremated.  They then put his ashes into either a coffee can or urn, tied a stick of dynamite to it, and then my aunt shot it and blew his ashes to smithereens.
     Well, I guess if you're cremated what's left of you could technically be considered smithereens already, but you get the picture.

My brother once told me that when he dies, he neither wants to be buried nor cremated. He said he wanted to be taken to a taxidermist and stuffed and mounted, but then have his insides replaced with robotic parts and then be placed permanently on the stage at Chuck E. Cheese.

The living are a waste of space!
::)

Each to their own,  but I look forward to my trip to take some beautiful flowers from my own yard to the grave of my mother who died in her mid 50's in 1988. I probably would have had her cremated if there had been a plan, but now I'm glad I didn't because the grave and the headstone are at a park like spot in the cemetary where I can go and spend some quiet time remembering her. The location is surrounded by beautiful landscaping, grass, flowers, old trees, and a gigantic sycamore tree right in front of her grave which helps me locate it. Afterwards I usually look at the other headstones to see how old they are and there are some from the 1850's on up. Truly an amazing experience to read the names and the dates. Myself, I'll just be cremated, maybe have a small memorial plaque or something for family to visit if they want. The Chinese burn incense and conduct other ceremonies to honor their dead, as I've participated in many of those since my wife is Chinese and those are quite movingas they honor their family members that have passed.
I find it disrepectful and dishonorable to call it a waste of space but anyone has more right to feel that way than I have to tell them not to feel that way.

I find it disrepectful and dishonorable to call it a waste of space but anyone has more right to feel that way than I have to tell them not to feel that way.


That is true.

I am sorry about your mother, btw.

That is true.

I am sorry about your mother, btw.


thanks El_Duderino, I may have gotten a little emotional because I just went 3 weeks ago and put a lot of thought into the inscription on the gravestone. But this is a topic, kind of a waste of space on the forum, but a topic nonetheless. I guess it's easy for people to talk nonchalantly about anything.  But don't let my seriousness about this subject interfere with any discussion or jesting.

I find it disrepectful and dishonorable to call it a waste of space but anyone has more right to feel that way than I have to tell them not to feel that way.




I couldn't agree more with you, Mike. I feel that it is very important to have a grave..to honor and commerorate your loved one.  I feel that if you are/were close to that loved one...you would definitely want a place where you could go and peacefully remember them, talk to them (their spirit), etc...graves/cemeteries are beautiful places...that add meaning and value to a life once lived.

What would you want them to aim you at?


The ACLU Headquaters.

The ACLU Headquaters.
LMAO!!! ;D ;D ;D

(I just love the visual.)

Each to their own,  but I look forward to my trip to take some beautiful flowers from my own yard to the grave of my mother who died in her mid 50's in 1988. I probably would have had her cremated if there had been a plan, but now I'm glad I didn't because the grave and the headstone are at a park like spot in the cemetary where I can go and spend some quiet time remembering her. The location is surrounded by beautiful landscaping, grass, flowers, old trees, and a gigantic sycamore tree right in front of her grave which helps me locate it.  
I find it disrepectful and dishonorable to call it a waste of space but anyone has more right to feel that way than I have to tell them not to feel that way.


Edited.

Mike I'm so with you on this one - I love it in the spring/summer months when the grass is bone dry and it's possible to sit next to my mums grave when I take a bunch of flowers. Very special.


The living are a waste of space!
::)


;D ;D

Your's is good, But i wanna be shot out of a cannon.


Maybe you could arrange to have that performed while you're still alive!  ;)

The concern for the dead is the thing that makes "Modern Man" and Neanderthal different from every hominid that came before.  Before that, dead people were just left where they died, unless it was in an inconvient place.  Then, they were simply carted away and tossed out like garbage.



When do you consider "Modern Man" arose?  There are lots burial sites from the late neolithic period (approximately 4,000 BC)

When do you consider "Modern Man" arose?  There are lots burial sites from the late neolithic period (approximately 4,000 BC)


Modern Man, I.E. Homo Sapiens.  In other words, anything from Homo sapiens idaltu (160 tya) to today.

Remember, when I talk about things like meteorology, anthropology, astronomy, climatology, and the like I take a very long view.  when compared to our earliest recognizable "Modern Human" ancestor, 6,000 years is nothing. 

I found this interesting...doing some reading online..


After death, the corpse will start to decay and emit unpleasant odors due to the gases released by bacterial decomposition. Burial prevents the living from having to see and smell the corpses, but is not necessarily a public health requirement. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the WHO advises that only corpses carrying an infectious disease strictly require burial


Various human burial practices seek to demonstrate "respect for the dead", for the following reasons.

Respect for the physical remains is considered necessary. If left lying on top of the ground, scavengers may eat the corpse, which is considered highly disrespectful to the deceased in many (but not all) cultures.
Burial can be seen as an attempt to bring closure to the deceased's family and friends. By interring a body away from plain view, the pain of losing a loved one to death can likewise be lessened.
Many cultures believe in an afterlife. Burial is often believed to be a necessary step for an individual to reach the afterlife.
Many religions prescribe a "right" way to live, which includes customs relating to disposal of the dead.

After death, the corpse will start to decay and emit unpleasant odors due to the gases released by bacterial decomposition. Burial prevents the living from having to see and smell the corpses, but is not necessarily a public health requirement. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the WHO advises that only corpses carrying an infectious disease strictly require burial


The right combination of gases, temperature, space etc can actually lead to the cadaver to burst.. an exploding corpse if you will.

Modern Man, I.E. Homo Sapiens.  In other words, anything from Homo sapiens idaltu (160 tya) to today.

Remember, when I talk about things like meteorology, anthropology, astronomy, climatology, and the like I take a very long view.  when compared to our earliest recognizable "Modern Human" ancestor, 6,000 years is nothing. 


It's just that I took your post to mean that burial is a relatively recent thing. (i.e. a thousand or so years).  That seemed to be what you were saying.  Apologies for the misinterpretation.

It's just that I took your post to mean that burial is a relatively recent thing. (i.e. a thousand or so years).  That seemed to be what you were saying.  Apologies for the misinterpretation.


No problem.  In fact, it is a rather ancient practice.

Neeandertal was the first to practice "Burial Rites", which helped make them distinct from other proto-humans.  And remember, they lived from 230-29 tya.

And it is ok, a lot of people are thrown off in here because I look at trends over tens of thousands, or even millions of years.  This is why I find some things almost laughable, when they look at a mere 100-200 years of data, and I then look back over data that goes back hundreds of thousands of years and more.  I see how this "difinitive data" is really just a minor blip in history.

I interpreted you to be saying that graves are a waste of space because we have only being doing it relatively recently and we really didn't need to be doing it.  In fact I think you are saying the opposite?

Modern Man, I.E. Homo Sapiens.  In other words, anything from Homo sapiens idaltu (160 tya) to today.

Remember, when I talk about things like meteorology, anthropology, astronomy, climatology, and the like I take a very long view.  when compared to our earliest recognizable "Modern Human" ancestor, 6,000 years is nothing. 


Thanks for the info Mr Mushroom et al - this thread has provided a definite learning curve.   :D 

I interpreted you to be saying that graves are a waste of space because we have only being doing it relatively recently and we really didn't need to be doing it.  In fact I think you are saying the opposite?


I am saying that the desire to do something for the dead is a trait of humans.  That can vary from building elaborate tombs, cremation, even burial.  We even have Cenotaphs.  And there are ceremonies for those who are consecrated and not interred in the ground, like burial at sea.

To me, it is not what is done with the body that is important, it is how we pay our respects to those who have died.  The disposition of the body is really up to the person who died, and their survivors.  It may be private or public.  It may be a tomb, a plot of ground, it may be the mantle where an urn is displayed.  It may even be like an avid skiier I knew, who had his ashes scattered along his favorite ski slope.

Or it may be a Klingon ritual, where the body is seen as an empty shell, to be discarded with the trash.  8)

I am saying that the desire to do something for the dead is a trait of humans.  That can vary from building elaborate tombs, cremation, even burial.  We even have Cenotaphs.  And there are ceremonies for those who are consecrated and not interred in the ground, like burial at sea.

To me, it is not what is done with the body that is important, it is how we pay our respects to those who have died.  The disposition of the body is really up to the person who died, and their survivors.  It may be private or public.  It may be a tomb, a plot of ground, it may be the mantle where an urn is displayed.  It may even be like an avid skiier I knew, who had his ashes scattered along his favorite ski slope.

Or it may be a Klingon ritual, where the body is seen as an empty shell, to be discarded with the trash.   8)
I like the idea of a great big incendiary Funeral Pyre     

I am saying that the desire to do something for the dead is a trait of humans.  That can vary from building elaborate tombs, cremation, even burial.  We even have Cenotaphs.  And there are ceremonies for those who are consecrated and not interred in the ground, like burial at sea.

To me, it is not what is done with the body that is important, it is how we pay our respects to those who have died.  The disposition of the body is really up to the person who died, and their survivors.  It may be private or public.  It may be a tomb, a plot of ground, it may be the mantle where an urn is displayed.  It may even be like an avid skiier I knew, who had his ashes scattered along his favorite ski slope.

Or it may be a Klingon ritual, where the body is seen as an empty shell, to be discarded with the trash.   8)


But if you're dead, why would you care if you were honored on Earth?  I wouldn't, based on what I believe happens when you die.

Screw the dead.  I'm going to honor the heroes that are alive.

But if you're dead, why would you care if you were honored on Earth?  I wouldn't, based on what I believe happens when you die.

Screw the dead.  I'm going to honor the heroes that are alive.
it's for those that remain because it hurts to lose someone. Maybe you haven't lost a immediate family member or a best friend. People do lots of things to honor and remember. tattoos are a way for some. Maybe you'd rather find a more useful way of disposal like Soylent Green

it's for those that remain because it hurts to lose someone. Maybe you haven't lost a immediate family member or a best friend. People do lots of things to honor and remember. tattoos are a way for some. Maybe you'd rather find a more useful way of disposal like Soylent Green


Oh, like I've said I think people should have the right to private graveyards (in the sense that they're not government-funded).  But unless I'm famous, I want to be cremated.

But if you're dead, why would you care if you were honored on Earth?  I wouldn't, based on what I believe happens when you die.

Screw the dead.  I'm going to honor the heroes that are alive.


NECROPHILIA.

NECROPHILIA.


Ooooh really  ;)

Ooooh really  ;)


It just sprang to mind!!

it's for those that remain because it hurts to lose someone. Maybe you haven't lost a immediate family member or a best friend. People do lots of things to honor and remember. tattoos are a way for some. Maybe you'd rather find a more useful way of disposal like Soylent Green

There were indeed some cultures in Indonesia in which a traditional funeral rite was the dining on the dead.  It was a way of honoring a deceased community member.  The eating symbolically subsumed the person back into the greater collective spirit.  The cannibalist rite existed at least into the 1960s, but I think external pressures has forced its cessation.  I don't know if this rite involved devouring the entire corpse or only part of it.  I don't know whether they ate the naughty bits or diseased organs.
Ironically, some Indonesian cultures practiced cannibalism upon their enemies as an expression contempt. Nothing says you lost more than getting eaten up and pooped out by your adversary!  I don't know if these traditions overlapped in the same cultures.

Bon appetite!
:o

Oh, like I've said I think people should have the right to private graveyards (in the sense that they're not government-funded).  But unless I'm famous, I want to be cremated.


Well, my will states that I am to buried in a Government Cemetary.  And of all of them, I can't think of one I would rather be laid to rest at then Andersonville.  But the land is already a National Historical Monument, and I can't see that status ever changing.

I'm a massive cemetery nut. I love going around to the old cemeteries from the 1700s and early 1800s and taking pictures of them, they're so beautiful and interesting...there's one just down the street from my school on Belleville Avenue and another in walking distance from my house, and one with stones dating back to the 1720s I see driving to my grandparent's house every Thursday.

So, no...I don't think they're a waste of space. I wish to be buried in Oheb Shalom cemetery in Hillside, NJ, next to my mother and grandfather.

My family's burial plot is in Homewood Cemetary in Pittsburgh.  Interestingly it is the high-society place to be buried, with "old money" figures such as H.J. Heinz and Senator Heinz buried in a two-story domed crypt that even has a basement.  (My family is not high-society, I don't know how we got the plots).  Lots of cool stone private mausoleums, pyramids, obelisks, and what-not.

Anyway, this high-class cemetary is surrounded by slums on all sides.  Seems that in Homewood, the dead are the only people who have a decent place to lay down and take a nap. 

;D