If someone completely believed all the liberal values, what would they believe?


I would say:

*Pro-Environment

A pure liberal believes that environment goes before business.  However, some may believe this only to moderation because of human rights issues.  Others take in the account of animal rights, and thus extend it further.

*Generally Anti-War

A pure liberal only believes wars are okay if they are fought to prevent violence that is even worse.  However, the ends never justify the means, in terms of spoil and unnecessary death. 

*Anti-Globalization

The Left tends to highly value culture, and Globalization, which is creating a one-world culture, challenges this.

*Anti-Death Penalty/Torture

The most Left person would not support the Death Penalty or torture as they find them to be barbaric and old-fashioned.  Instead, they would support imprisonment, community service or rehabilitation, depending on the crime.

*Pro-PC (to a certain extent)

The Left believes in protecting rights, so the ultimate Leftist would support a certain level of PC.  However, since PC can be restrictive of rights they would not be for overboard PC.

*Pro-Choice

As the Left is all about rights, the ultimate Lefty would support the legality of abortion, although not necessarily the act itself.  Some, however, may be against partial-birth abortion because of concern about the fetus' rights.

*Tolerant, but not endorsing of religions and organizations

The ultimate Leftist would support the legality of most groups and religions, but would not endorse them with government money.

*Pro-Socialism

The ultimate Lefty would not be Capitalist, because such an economy creates inequality, and would not support Communism because of its limits on freedom and information.  They would support Socialism, because of its provision of freedom and equality.  This would be realized by relatively high taxes to support schools, hospitals, and the like.

If someone completely believed all the liberal values, what would they believe?


I would say:

*Pro-Environment

i take a very pragmatic view of the environment. i'm all for spotted owls but liberals are often painted that we put the environment before people. this is a wrong-headed perception. we should maintain the environment because if we don't, this planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

*Generally Anti-War

war is justified only to avert the rise of global fascism, or to avert the dissolution of the nation-state. using it the way the US uses it now, to achieve minor political ends and to avoid losing face, is immoral in the worst way.

*Anti-Globalization

the current kind of globalization -- which is kind-of a misnomer, since it's pretty much forcing all other cultures to bend to western-style corporatism, is abhorrent and is also nothing new. it's old-school colonialism with a new terminology.

*Anti-Death Penalty/Torture

The state shouldn't be in the business of taking life. only god or nature or the fates can do that.

*Pro-PC (to a certain extent)

the first immigrants to this country were from all kinds of different backgrounds and called each other all kinds of terrible slurs. usually it was with a slap on the back. i don't think the terms create the evil, and proscribing them is treating a symptom, not the disease.

**Pro-Socialism

The ultimate Lefty would not be Capitalist, because such an economy creates inequality, and would not support Communism because of its limits on freedom and information.  They would support Socialism, because of its provision of freedom and equality.  This would be realized by relatively high taxes to support schools, hospitals, and the like.


i believe in a well-regulated capitalism that exists in the context of a larger holistic community. companies should exist to better people's lives, people shouldn't live in order that corporations can expand. so i think capitalism should exist in the context of well-maintained public spaces, public education, art venues, etc. etc. etc. you can't live a spiritually fulfilling life in a climate where everything is subservient to the almighty dollar. but i wouldn't think what i espouse is socialism. maybe a very moderate form of it.

I'm very much a pure, multiculturalist, socialist, super anti-globalization liberal. Except I'm pretty against illegal immigration, and I think there needs to be less sex and violence on TV.

there are liberally minded ways to get to less sex and violence on t.v. i think a big part of that is sex sells, and the media are almost entirely privatized, which is not how they were originally envisaged. corporate stations were gonna be more or less equally present with public access, educational, research, scientific, and community media when the public airways were first being divvied up -- but then bribery had its way and the government pretty much gave the store away to the major networks. having more source diversity in the media would clean it up significantly.

also, i think all that violence is the reflection of a broader culture that isn't healthy -- a backlash against a society that offers very little spiritual fulfillment in general.

there are liberally minded ways to get to less sex and violence on t.v. i think a big part of that is sex sells, and the media are almost entirely privatized, which is not how they were originally envisaged. corporate stations were gonna be more or less equally present with public access, educational, research, scientific, and community media when the public airways were first being divvied up -- but then bribery had its way and the government pretty much gave the store away to the major networks. having more source diversity in the media would clean it up significantly.

also, i think all that violence is the reflection of a broader culture that isn't healthy -- a backlash against a society that offers very little spiritual fulfillment in general.


Yeah, our culture has an extremely unhealthy fixation on sex and violence. And these days, most of it is misogynistic (rap, anybody?) I think the women's rights situation has actually gotten worse since the 1980s because of rap.

I believe that more then anything else, Liberals want to be able to live in some sort of Utopian world.

They want a world of no violence, no war, no greed, no hunger, where nobody has to work and everything is given to them.  They want to live forever like they were 5 years old, and their parents took care of their every want and need.

Everything they seem to believe in goes back to this basic concept.  

Unfortuniately, they seem to have no idea how to achieve that, so everything that seems to be an obsticle is an evil enemy.

I believe that more then anything else, Liberals want to be able to live in some sort of Utopian world.

They want a world of no violence, no war, no greed, no hunger, where nobody has to work and everything is given to them.  They want to live forever like they were 5 years old, and their parents took care of their every want and need.

Everything they seem to believe in goes back to this basic concept.  

Unfortuniately, they seem to have no idea how to achieve that, so everything that seems to be an obsticle is an evil enemy.
the right is, as far as i've seen, much more into utopianism but sure, there are some extreme liberal organizations/movements that are utopian. they tend to morph into some brand or another of fascism pretty quickly, however.

still, the things you're talking about -- particularly abolishing war and abolishing hunger; not creating a world of idleness as you mispresent it, but a surplus society where people only have to work, say, 25 hours a week and can spend the rest of the time developing themselves personally -- this is more accurately called "progress." we've mostly done away with child labor, slavery, we no longer leave the old and infirm to die, so i think these other goals can be accomplished. they're not utopian; they're prerequisites to a true civilized society, which is something we still need to aspire to. conservatives seem to believe we can find an ideal society by scapegoating political opponents and regressing to some idealized time in the past when everything was godly and ideal, but i don't think answers can be found in that direction.

I have no problem with sexual content. I'm more liberal socially than economically, actually. I have a very Western European stance on social issues.

I'm very pragmatic on the enviroment.

I don't support international corporations the way they presently run. I don't like that part of globalism. But I do support the idea of it, just not the way its happening. Globalization is inevitable. At one time we didn't have nation-states. We had small feudal kingdoms, city-states and the like. But eventually nationalization creeped in as society progressed and regions became more economically integrated. As the world becomes more economically integrated that will start to happen(but perhaps slowly) in other areas.

My main problem with globalization is that while thirld world nations are reaping some benefits as a whole and improving as a whole, worker's rights aren't being protected and a lot of people in the individual level are suffering. It is also making things more difficult for middle class people in industrialized nations. Like I said, its a good idea, but more work needs to be done to improve economic and political rights globally before the world can succesfully integrated. I do have the feeling, maybe not within my lifetime, but at some point down the line we will have one central government. It could very well still be a century or two off though.

As far as religion goes, I don't think it should be banned. But I think it should have ZERO part in education, I don't think that any government institution, event, building etc. should anyway support or endorse religion. So I think "under God" should be taken out of the pledge, off money, etc. I also don't think that religious organizations should recieve tax breaks, unless they are a charity. Also I don't think any laws should exist to cater to religion. That means I don't think a church should legally be able to prevent a liqour store or something of that nature opening up close to them. I also don't think states should be allowed to prohibit liqour sales on sundays.

A 100% liberal is an existential impossibility.
:-\\

A 100% liberal is an existential impossibility.
:-\\


You and Dude are both pretty close.

You and Dude are both pretty close.

I think of myself as more "left" than "liberal," but I have no problem with being called "liberal."  The core of my beliefs come down to class struggle, labor versus capital.  Issues about whether or not we should ban porn are secondary, and of course we shouldn't ban porn!  However, some of my former comrades in the Progressive Labor Party would ban pornography if they every got to run the show, and I did not care for such illiberal dogma.  I quit PLP, however, because the insisted on refering to "Comrade" Stalin!
:o

you mustn't ban pornography!

you mustn't!

I think of myself as more "left" than "liberal," but I have no problem with being called "liberal."  The core of my beliefs come down to class struggle, labor versus capital.  Issues about whether or not we should ban porn are secondary, and of course we shouldn't ban porn!  However, some of my former comrades in the Progressive Labor Party would ban pornography if they every got to run the show, and I did not care for such illiberal dogma.  I quit PLP, however, because the insisted on refering to "Comrade" Stalin!
:o


Banning porn is a bad idea.  However, the business does need to be more regulated so it doesn't take advantage of its "stars".

Banning porn is a bad idea.  However, the business does need to be more regulated so it doesn't take advantage of its "stars".

Actually, I don't enjoy the kind of hardcore pornography that's popular nowadays.  There's too much anger in it, makes me feel kinda nervous.  The sad commentary on our cultural decline in re porn is not a moral one about ses so much as an economic one about opportunity and values.  The sheer number of young women who become exotic dancers or smut models is astounding.  Some women do it because it's their best shot at making decent money, others do it because they want more material luxury and they believe porn/dancing is the quickest route.  Either way, what you get into when you are 18 or 21 will not reveal its full impact for another ten or twenty years.  I've got a feeling there's a world of regret among thirty-somethings and forty-somethings.  But they're not gonna admit it!
:(

oo, i'm sensing a thread derailment.... thread derailment....

i don't really mind hardcore pornography but yeah, a lot of the stuff nowadays varies from being pointless and mediocre to downright horrifying and disgusting. i won't get into the clinical reasons, but the thing they never have now is STORY -- i know it sounds implausible but the old movies, from the 60s up until the 80s or so took victorian pornography for their inspiration and so had pretty good stories, or at least scenarios. (you know, debbie does dallas, she dies, has to come back to earth and then get with a bunch of people to get out of purgatory, something like that, i haven't seen it in a million years -- but there's an actual plot there, a conflict, even if it isn't exactly hamlet.) now they just have a camera, a couple, a hotel room, and they go at it. um, hello? not hot? whatever happened to the brain being the largest erotic organ?

gah. as a friend of mine once indelicately but 100% correctly said, "what today's pornography needs is more feather boas and less gaping orifices."

okay, now. let me delete all this.

Actually, I don't enjoy the kind of hardcore pornography that's popular nowadays.  There's too much anger in it, makes me feel kinda nervous.  The sad commentary on our cultural decline in re porn is not a moral one about ses so much as an economic one about opportunity and values.  The sheer number of young women who become exotic dancers or smut models is astounding.  Some women do it because it's their best shot at making decent money, others do it because they want more material luxury and they believe porn/dancing is the quickest route.  Either way, what you get into when you are 18 or 21 will not reveal its full impact for another ten or twenty years.  I've got a feeling there's a world of regret among thirty-somethings and forty-somethings.  But they're not gonna admit it!
:(


I've never seen that sort of porn, but yeah I see what you're saying.  Some of it is kind of violent, as opposed to simply being a tool to beat off to.

I've never seen that sort of porn, but yeah I see what you're saying.  Some of it is kind of violent, as opposed to simply being a tool to beat off to.

What sickens me is people "beating off" to the sort of "Max Hardcore" super-degrading stuff!
But what kind of liberal am I to lay moral judgments on other people's tastes!

oo, i'm sensing a thread derailment.... thread derailment....

i don't really mind hardcore pornography but yeah, a lot of the stuff nowadays varies from being pointless and mediocre to downright horrifying and disgusting. i won't get into the clinical reasons, but the thing they never have now is STORY -- i know it sounds implausible but the old movies, from the 60s up until the 80s or so took victorian pornography for their inspiration and so had pretty good stories, or at least scenarios. (you know, debbie does dallas, she dies, has to come back to earth and then get with a bunch of people to get out of purgatory, something like that, i haven't seen it in a million years -- but there's an actual plot there, a conflict, even if it isn't exactly hamlet.) now they just have a camera, a couple, a hotel room, and they go at it. um, hello? not hot? whatever happened to the brain being the largest erotic organ?

gah. as a friend of mine once indelicately but 100% correctly said, "what today's pornography needs is more feather boas and less gaping orifices."

okay, now. let me delete all this.


I guess I'm just not real romantic or something.

But I don't see why plot is necessary at all in porn.

I guess I'm just not real romantic or something.

But I don't see why plot is necessary at all in porn.
because it's hot! it's not the having, it's the getting. porn is metaphysical. even when you show everything, the gratification is still not perfect because there's a screen in the way. that's the porn fallacy -- thinking that if you show more and more, you get closer to simulating the sex act itself. but the only way to really get the reader/viewer/whatever closer to the act is to tell a story that they can imagine themselves into. it's just like that burt reynolds guy sez in boogie nights.

I guess I'm just not real romantic or something.

But I don't see why plot is necessary at all in porn.

The home video revolution put an end to the need for plot.  By the late '80s producers were boasting on their boxcovers "No filler, just wall-to-wall sex!"  I figure in the '70s when people actually went to a cinema and bought a ticket to just sit there (or not just sit there...yeesh!) for ninety minutes, they needed a framework on which to hang the sex scenes.  The "plot" soon boiled down to a few lines as an anacrusis to sex, ie. "So you want to work for me, eh? You must come into my office for an interview!" ("chicka-chicka-chicka bow-wow-wow funk-slap bass music ensues).  The major hotel chains report the average duration of an adult video viewing is something like 2 to 5 minutes! So....
:-\\

The home video revolution put an end to the need for plot.  By the late '80s producers were boasting on their boxcovers "No filler, just wall-to-wall sex!"  I figure in the '70s when people actually went to a cinema and bought a ticket to just sit there (or not just sit there...yeesh!) for ninety minutes, they needed a framework on which to hang the sex scenes.  The "plot" soon boiled down to a few lines as an anacrusis to sex, ie. "So you want to work for me, eh? You must come into my office for an interview!" ("chicka-chicka-chicka bow-wow-wow funk-slap bass music ensues).  The major hotel chains report the average duration of an adult video viewing is something like 2 to 5 minutes! So....
:-\\


Thats all they last?  :o Man I wonder what happens when these guys are with a real woman..

;D
because it's hot! it's not the having, it's the getting. porn is metaphysical. even when you show everything, the gratification is still not perfect because there's a screen in the way. that's the porn fallacy -- thinking that if you show more and more, you get closer to simulating the sex act itself. but the only way to really get the reader/viewer/whatever closer to the act is to tell a story that they can imagine themselves into. it's just like that burt reynolds guy sez in boogie nights.


Hmm. I've never thought of it that way but I guess it makes sense. I'm just waiting on VR porn. *crosses fingers*  ;D

Boogie Nights is my favorite movie, by the way. I've been interested in getting into the gay porn writing business as a way to make money in my 20s, or starting an erotic postcards business or something. I want to bring plot back to 90-minute porn flicks. It's even hotter when you get to know the character and get absorbed into the story, and can imagine yourself in it. Also, the less sex you show, the hotter the sex is. It's sort of about not revealing too much for too long and revealing it artfully, and putting the most erotic punch into the best storyline and timeframe.

Boogie Nights is my favorite movie, by the way. I've been interested in getting into the gay porn writing business as a way to make money in my 20s, or starting an erotic postcards business or something. I want to bring plot back to 90-minute porn flicks. It's even hotter when you get to know the character and get absorbed into the story, and can imagine yourself in it. Also, the less sex you show, the hotter the sex is. It's sort of about not revealing too much for too long and revealing it artfully, and putting the most erotic punch into the best storyline and timeframe.


i think "magnolia" is utterly weird and beautiful. even better than boogie nights. BN is great though.

i think "magnolia" is utterly weird and beautiful. even better than boogie nights. BN is great though.


Yeah, I adore Magnolia, but Boogie Nights is just so damn funky.

(you know, debbie does dallas, she dies, has to come back to earth and then get with a bunch of people to get out of purgatory, something like that, i haven't seen it in a million years -- but there's an actual plot there, a conflict, even if it isn't exactly hamlet.)

Errr, that was The Devil In Miss Jones, not Debbie Does Dallas.  Debbie involved a bunch of cheerleaders prostitution themselves to make money to go on a trip.

And I agree there, some of the Classic porn movies had some rather good storylines.  DIMJ was even used in an edited version in some film schools until a few years ago.  This was because of some of the psychological messages in the movie.

I agree with Jack Horner myself.  Video killed the porn industry.  Until the 1980's, it cost quite a lot of money to make and distribute a porn movie.  But once video cameras came on the market, anybody could make and distribute their own movies.  Quality left, and the current era of "Gonzo Porn" and 6 hour "best of" tapes started.

And of course, the Internet just exagerated this trend.  Now, it costs almost nothing.  Register a URL, set up a dredit card service, and away you go.

Myself, I am rather ambivelent on porn.  I will watch a "Classic" when I find one.  But I basically will not watch anything made past 1984.  That is when quality ended in my opinion.

Of course, there is still some fairly decent quality gay porn on DVD with storylines, I mean the acting obviously sucks, but it's better than nothing and the guys are hotter and less skeazy on DVD than the internet. Erotic stories are the way to go these days, especially those that are well-illustrated and professionally written.

One of my many missions in life, along with re-establishing the novel of social commentary, making lapsed Jews realize the full importance of Judaism, and addressing the emptiness of life today in America, is reviving porn to its classic stature as a medium with a storyline and restraint.

Errr, that was The Devil In Miss Jones, not Debbie Does Dallas.  Debbie involved a bunch of cheerleaders prostitution themselves to make money to go on a trip.



i'm sorta glad i don't know that, actually. proves i'm pure as the driven snow.

What would an 100% liberal believe in?

The 1963 communist goals seem pretty close.

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand .

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use united force to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction over nations and individuals alike.