This subject has been raging on around me for quite awhile now. I actually avoided going in to work today because I knew this protest was going to happen and that there would be a backlash from the 'anti' brigade and didn't want to get caught up in it !

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4750516.stm

Personally I just don't think labs could get away with the appaling way they used to treat animals say 20 or 30 years ago.There is simply too much interest nowadays and people are much better informed, it would be leaked to the press instantly.

Even if there was a case to answer I think groups like the A.L.F have gone about it in such a way as to ruin any coherent argument they might make.Nothing and I mean NOTHING they say can justify to me their behaviour when it comes to doing things like digging up someone's grandmothers grave and stealing the body, or hounding a poor man to suicide with a hate compaign just because he delivered the post to a company they were against.
What are your feelings on animal testing ?? or on the tactics used by campaigners??

on a final note ;
According to the A.L.F I am now 'fair game' because I work for the university in Oxford. (I'm a librarian by the way !). They put all of our names and addresses up on the internet at one point and have declared us all 'legitimate targets'. Last month they targeted an architects firm in the city because they had once done some work for the University 5 years ago !?! How does that help any case they might have?     

I live maybe 40 miles from the headquarters of P.E.T.A., the largest animal 'rights' groups in the US.

My position on them? Read this.


//
Even if there was a case to answer I think groups like the A.L.F have gone about it in such a way as to ruin any coherent argument they might make.



Yep.



What are your feelings on animal testing ?? or on the tactics used by campaigners??



Animal testing is still necessary but that doesn't mean cruelty need be involved. As for the tactics, ALF is pretty low key here.



on a final note ;
According to the A.L.F I am now 'fair game' because I work for the university in Oxford. (I'm a librarian by the way !). They put all of our names and addresses up on the internet at one point and have declared us all 'legitimate targets'. Last month they targeted an architects firm in the city because they had once done some work for the University 5 years ago !?! How does that help any case they might have?     


I would like to see exactly what they have up.

Extremism and hypocrisy never help any cause. Our radio station has a PETA fishing tournament every year to mock PETA. They are located (literally) right across the street from PETA national headquarters. PETA, while having one million members, doesn't dare touch them or make threats because they know within a matter of minutes they'd get enough bad press to ruin what shred of credibility they still have.

P.E.T.A, A.L.F., E.L.F., and Earth First are marginal creeps.  I don't care what side of the political fence they claim to be on, if you claim moral superiority and believe your dogma justifies violence or threats of violence, I probably don't want anything to do with you.
I'm eating a hamburger and I'm wearing a leather belt RIGHT NOW!  Bring it on, PETA!
;D

Do we need an overhaul in the way we treat livestock and the way we process meat products?  You bet we do!  Do we need to preserve our ecology and stop corporations and the government from eradicating forests and poisoning the world? Absolutely!  Do I want PETA, ALF, or ELF, Earth First on my side of the issues?  No effing way!

P.E.T.A, A.L.F., E.L.F., and Earth First are marginal creeps.  I don't care what side of the political fence they claim to be on, if you claim moral superiority and believe your dogma justifies violence or threats of violence, I probably don't want anything to do with you.
I'm eating a hamburger and I'm wearing a leather belt RIGHT NOW!  Bring it on, PETA!

Do I want PETA, ALF, or ELF, Earth First on my side of the issues?  No effing way!
(edited for brevity)


In this we fully agree.  However, they are potentially a great danger.  Over the last 10 years, they have become increasingly militant, and are doing greater and greater damage.  They are basically an Environmental version of The Weathermen Underground.

I am very conservationalist.  I believe in being humane in our treatment of animals.  But arson, vandalism, and terrorist threats are not the way to achieve those goals.

P.E.T.A, A.L.F., E.L.F., and Earth First are marginal creeps.  I don't care what side of the political fence they claim to be on, if you claim moral superiority and believe your dogma justifies violence or threats of violence, I probably don't want anything to do with you.
I'm eating a hamburger and I'm wearing a leather belt RIGHT NOW!  Bring it on, PETA!
;D

Do we need an overhaul in the way we treat livestock and the way we process meat products?  You bet we do!  Do we need to preserve our ecology and stop corporations and the government from eradicating forests and poisoning the world? Absolutely!  Do I want PETA, ALF, or ELF, Earth First on my side of the issues?  No effing way!


I agree I don't like those organizations either, they're just extremists that have a crazy agenda. PETA is absolutely crazy telling people not to drink milk because of the way they treat the cows or something and telling people not to eat meat because all meat is hazardous to your health, yeah right.

I agree I don't like those organizations either, they're just extremists that have a crazy agenda. PETA is absolutely crazy telling people not to drink milk because of the way they treat the cows or something and telling people not to eat meat because all meat is hazardous to your health, yeah right.


Do you want to see an animal rights fanatic go crazy?  Ask them about breastfeeding.  Or better yet, ask them why we have canine teeth and incisors, if we are supposed to be vegitarians like they all try to claim.

Ask them why we have binocular vision, when the vast majority of herbivores have eyes on the side of their head.  Ask them why we are social pack animals, when herbivores are heard animals.

Or even better, ask why herbivores tend to have the lowest intelligence of all animals, while carnivores and omnivores tend to have the highest levels of intelligence.  This is simply darwinism.  After all, it takes a lot of intelligence to hunt and catch prey.  It takes very little intelligence to sneak up on a blade of grass.  8)

I did a report on Animal testing last year and some of the things they do to the animals is just sickening.  I'm not against hunting and I'm no PETA prick, but I do believe in animal rights to an extent.  I ever find someone putting a dog in a bag then grabbing a baseball bat, they got a fight on their hands.

I'm a member of PETA: People for the Eating of Tasty Animals  8)

Yes, but PETA is a terrorist organization.  Violence is not going to convince anyone; of anything it damages their cause.
Animals definitely need to be treated better though.  I mean, really, those slaughterhouses are the stuff of nightmares.

Animals do need to be treated better. I'm partially a vegetarian that reason, though I do eat shrimp, because, well, does a shrimp have a brain? But, mainly, I'm a vegetarian for the reason that it makes me nauseated to eat meat. I think I have some sort of intolerance or allergy for it.

PETA are a terrorist organization, period.

Do you want to see an animal rights fanatic go crazy?  Ask them about breastfeeding.  Or better yet, ask them why we have canine teeth and incisors, if we are supposed to be vegitarians like they all try to claim.

Ask them why we have binocular vision, when the vast majority of herbivores have eyes on the side of their head.  Ask them why we are social pack animals, when herbivores are heard animals.

Or even better, ask why herbivores tend to have the lowest intelligence of all animals, while carnivores and omnivores tend to have the highest levels of intelligence.  This is simply darwinism.  After all, it takes a lot of intelligence to hunt and catch prey.  It takes very little intelligence to sneak up on a blade of grass.   8)

A caller to a radio program once asked why we have those canine incisors if we're not carnivorous.  The PETA creep retorted, "Try chasing down a gazelle at forty mph and sinking those canines into its neck."  He was right...but then again, he was not. Human's are omniverous. If we could hunt with the speed, strength, and tooth of lions, we wouldn't ever have had to make tools! There are some compelling arguments that our innards were not designed to digest meat, but I'm not convinced either way.  Our early hunter/gatherer ancesters did what they had to do to survive.  Maybe that meant picking berries, maybe that meant spearing a woolly mammoth.  Either way, we're still here.  There are many cultures in the world that still subsist as hunter/gatherers, and they have continued to evolve their hunter/gatherer skills.  They are the REAL wave of the future, not some gobbledy-gook Thomas Friedman writes about.  After post-industrial man does himself in--and he will! The hunter/gatherers will be there to once again show us the way!
Anyway, not one of those effete vegans with soft hands and heads full of juvenile self-righteousness could stand a week among the Inuits anymore so than a Ruth's Crist's eating Sean Hannity Republican.

In this we fully agree.  However, they are potentially a great danger.  Over the last 10 years, they have become increasingly militant, and are doing greater and greater damage.  They are basically an Environmental version of The Weathermen Underground.

I am very conservationalist.  I believe in being humane in our treatment of animals.  But arson, vandalism, and terrorist threats are not the way to achieve those goals.

OK, if you catch the ELF "terrorists" who set fire to some SUVs in a dealership lot, just put them in a cell with some REAL terrorists...you know the kind!  Heh heh!
I just thought it was stupid the way the clods from ELF were setting those fires.  I may be wrong, but the car dealer or housing developer gets a heck of an insurance payoff!

I support animal rights to an extent, but not to the extent that PETA does.  I don't have a problem with the humane killing of animals for food and medical reasons... but I don't like the fact that they put dogs and cats to sleep when they are good potential pets, and like Harmonica said, there would be a big problem if I saw someone torturing an animal.

I support animal rights to an extent, but not to the extent that PETA does.  I don't have a problem with the humane killing of animals for food and medical reasons... but I don't like the fact that they put dogs and cats to sleep when they are good potential pets, and like Harmonica said, there would be a big problem if I saw someone torturing an animal.


Do you think they're emotional/conscious?

I don't see PETA advocating for the rights of companion animals, nor have I heard of them doing things like building no-kill shelters for homeless/abused pets, offering free or low cost spaying or neutering of dogs and cats, offering assistance to homebound senior citizens and sick people to buy pet food and other necessities, or teaching prospective pet owners the proper, humane way to care for their pets...But I remember PETA's infamous DEATH VANS!

PETA..People Exterminating and Terrorizing Animals via their death vans!
What a bunch of sorry a$$ hypocrites and outright liars!

Don't you ever hate it when an animal rights group comes up to you and tries to convince you not to eat meat. Why don't they go up to a ferocious lion and convince it not to eat meat? That would be a sight to see.  ;D

Do you think they're emotional/conscious?


who, the animals??

who, the animals??


Yes.

Do you think they're emotional/conscious?
I know that they can feel pain and even become depressed when their owner dies..

Yes it's sad when animals have to be euthanized...I had to have my first cat euthanized, he was 14 years old and his health problems finally got the best of him..But Sylvester gave me 14 years of happiness even when I was depressed and had my breakdowns.  For that, I'm thankful.

Yes.


Absolutely... one of my dogs came from a shelter and was obviously abused... when I first got him, everytime I would tell him "no" he would lay on his back or go run into my closet and hide, and when I fed him, he would scarf down his whole dish of food in about 10 seconds... as if he didn't think he would ever be fed again.  It took him quite awhile to adjust to a good home where nobody would hurt him and he would be fed regularly.  It was really sad.

I know that they can feel pain and even become depressed when their owner dies..

Yes it's sad when animals have to be euthanized...I had to have my first cat euthanized, he was 14 years old and his health problems finally got the best of him..But Sylvester gave me 14 years of happiness even when I was depressed and had my breakdowns.  For that, I'm thankful.


I think it's the best thing to euthanize them if they are really sick and suffering... no point to keep them alive when we don't know how much pain they're in and there's no hope for them to get better... what bothers me is when they euthanize mixed breeds just because they're supposedly hard to find homes for.

Absolutely... one of my dogs came from a shelter and was obviously abused... when I first got him, everytime I would tell him "no" he would lay on his back or go run into my closet and hide, and when I fed him, he would scarf down his whole dish of food in about 10 seconds... as if he didn't think he would ever be fed again.  It took him quite awhile to adjust to a good home where nobody would hurt him and he would be fed regularly.  It was really sad.


They're furry people.  They're not humans, but they are a lesser "person", if that makes sense.

They're furry people.  They're not humans, but they are a lesser "person", if that makes sense.


Makes sense to me.

Having to put my Sylvester down after 14 years of his kindness to me was so sad, I ended up going into depression so bad I had to be hospitalized. He was truly a gentle being.

What gets my blood boiling is pit bulls being abused in dogfights and now hog-dog fights. I reported someone to the SPCA because I overheard them talking, no, boasting that they have a pit bull that they use for fighting, they told someone about it, and I heard every graphic, gory detail...they even told the guy their address, which I memorized. Now, whenever I go out I'm wary, because I wonder if they know or have an inkling that I told on them and they could get revenge....

Having to put my Sylvester down after 14 years of his kindness to me was so sad, I ended up going into depression so bad I had to be hospitalized. He was truly a gentle being.

What gets my blood boiling is pit bulls being abused in dogfights and now hog-dog fights. I reported someone to the SPCA because I overheard them talking, no, boasting that they have a pit bull that they use for fighting, they told someone about it, and I heard every graphic, gory detail...they even told the guy their address, which I memorized. Now, whenever I go out I'm wary, because I wonder if they know or have an inkling that I told on them and they could get revenge....

It's ironic that PETA has "pet" in their acronym because they don't believe people should have pets at all.  Owning a pet is subjugating the animal and violating the animal's rights!
:D
It's nutty, but it's true!

The problem with fanatical "animal rights" groups, especially PETA,  is they guilt trip people about eating meat or having a cat so no one wants to listen to them when they bring up issues most people would support, such as cracking down on animal bloodsport (dogfighting, rooster fighting), and reforming inhumane treatment of laboratory animals.
::)

Hey, pit bulls are probably more intelligent than PETA nuts!

Hey, pit bulls are probably more intelligent than PETA nuts!

I'd like to see a pitbull grab some of those PETA jerks by the nuts! Heh heh!

It's ironic that PETA has "pet" in their acronym because they don't believe people should have pets at all.  Owning a pet is subjugating the animal and violating the animal's rights!
:D
It's nutty, but it's true!

The problem with fanatical "animal rights" groups, especially PETA,  is they guilt trip people about eating meat or having a cat so no one wants to listen to them when they bring up issues most people would support, such as cracking down on animal bloodsport (dogfighting, rooster fighting), and reforming inhumane treatment of laboratory animals.
::)


True... there are much more productive things these groups could do other than stand in front of grocery stores bothering people...

True... there are much more productive things these groups could do other than stand in front of grocery stores bothering people...

Yeah, if they're gonna do that, they might as well collect quarters for the Youth Soccer League while they're at it, arf arf arf!
:D

Yeah, if they're gonna do that, they might as well collect quarters for the Youth Soccer League while they're at it, arf arf arf!
:D


or sell girl scout cookies... i'm a sucker for those.. they get me every damn time. >:(

I find it interesting that everybody who has posted so far feels the same way as me.I am against animal cruelty but abhor the terrorist tactics these people use.It's quite sad really, if they weren't so extreme in their ideas and methods they would have a shed load of people supporting them  ! 

I like animals, dogs and cats, and I also like eating meat and the occasional vegatable.  I also don't like seeing animals abused and mistreated.

That being said, I am not a big fan of PETA, and the extreme tactics they use.  If I was to become a vegitarian, it would be my decision, not because someone tried to push it on to me.

If these people are against animal testing, then why aren't they lined up at the lab volunteering their OWN bodies to test these things on?  While I'm against torturing animals for the sake of "science", I see no problem with a majority of testing done.  I see cosmetics use the "not tested on animals" all the time and wonder who they ARE testing these on?  Are they willing to be subjected to the "things" that "cause cancer in lab rats"?  I also find it interesting that supporters such as Pam Anderson wear clothing that is made from animals (her "famous" UGGS, leather belts, shoes, etc). ::)


I don't particuarly care for testing cosmetics on animals... cosmetics are more of a luxury than a medical necessity... if I was going to buy mascara, I'd buy one that wasn't tested on animals and take my chances that it might burn if it got in my eye... rather than buy one whose manufacturer deliberately put mascara in the eye of an animal...  but I think that should take the back burner since there are people out there who abuse their companion animals solely out of cruelty... not even for any valid cause...  PETA should be building kennels to house and feed the hundreds of dogs and cats that are euthanized monthly just in CA alone... only because there isn't enough room for them...  and they should be offering free spay/neuter clinics... and they should be standing in front of puppy mills holding their signs... >:(

I don't particuarly care for testing cosmetics on animals... cosmetics are more of a luxury than a medical necessity... if I was going to buy mascara, I'd buy one that wasn't tested on animals and take my chances that it might burn if it got in my eye... rather than buy one whose manufacturer deliberately put mascara in the eye of an animal...  but I think that should take the back burner since there are people out there who abuse their companion animals solely out of cruelty... not even for any valid cause...  PETA should be building kennels to house and feed the hundreds of dogs and cats that are euthanized monthly just in CA alone... only because there isn't enough room for them...  and they should be offering free spay/neuter clinics... and they should be standing in front of puppy mills holding their signs... >:(


Yeah, cosmetics are a luxury.  I guess it's okay with medicine, if it can't be done without hurting animals.

Yeah, cosmetics are a luxury.  I guess it's okay with medicine, if it can't be done without hurting animals.


Yeah, I don't have a big problem with humanely killing animals for research... I just don't like the idea of them doing things that will potentially cause them pain and suffering...

Yeah, I don't have a big problem with humanely killing animals for research... I just don't like the idea of them doing things that will potentially cause them pain and suffering...


Agreed.  And we can only kill them if it's to preserve human life, and even that's only as a last resort.  Cosmetics is out of the question.

Agreed.  And we can only kill them if it's to preserve human life, and even that's only as a last resort.  Cosmetics is out of the question.


and for food, I think it's ok... again, as long as it's done humanely.

and for food, I think it's ok... again, as long as it's done humanely.


Yeah, I eat meat ... but I do think being vegetarian is ideal and honourable, as long as you're not preachy about it.

I don't particuarly care for testing cosmetics on animals... cosmetics are more of a luxury than a medical necessity...
I agree...but the trend among image conscious Americans is to view not just cosmetics, but cosmetic surgery, as not a LUXURY but a NECESSITY!  Cosmetic surgery--and I have a feeling certain "special interests" are behind this notion--is being pushed by the media as not just necessery for you to marry--or get l@id by--the richest (and/or hottest) intimate partner possible, BUT necessary for you to climb the corporate ladder!  Indeed, you'll never become the CEO of this insurance firm with that semitic nose of yours!  An NO woman with a bust smaller than a 34-B cup has ever amounted to anything in the plumbing supplies business!
:o

When corporate America gets too pushy to for even Americans to stomach, they issue their demands in the form of "human interest" news stories.  This is how I found out from John Stossel that I, as a short man, would never amount to anything and shall die poor and alone!
;D

And speaking of height, there is a new operation engineered by Asian surgeons where by they sever your feet, insert an extra length of tibia bone, and then graft your feet back on!  What a rich Korean won't do to be 5'4" instead of 5'2"!

Given what we are now willing to do to our own bodies for the sake of vanity and so-called "success," isn't it time to form "PETO," People for the Ethical Treatment of Ourselves"!
::)

and for food, I think it's ok... again, as long as it's done humanely.

I eat meat, but I don't think much about the processes it goes through before it ends up in my take-out baggie, and I certainly don't pretend the livestock industry is humane. Doesn't this present an ethical dilemma for me? Yup!
:-\\

I eat meat, but I don't think much about the processes it goes through before it ends up in my take-out baggie, and I certainly don't pretend the livestock industry is humane. Doesn't this present an ethical dilemma for me? Yup!
:-\\


Unless you're eating entirely organic I guess you're also consuming lots of hormones and antibiotics that the greedy unethical farmers feed, or inject into their livestock to plump them up - blurghh!!

Not to put you off or anything    ;D ;D

Unless you're eating entirely organic I guess you're also consuming lots of hormones and antibiotics that the greedy unethical farmers feed, or inject into their livestock to plump them up - blurghh!!

Not to put you off or anything    ;D ;D


Hush, hush! What I don't know can't hurt me!
:-X