It would be by state, but we would let in n. Virginia and n. Kentucky because they're really more northern.

It would be by state, but we would let in n. Virginia and n. Kentucky because they're really more northern.


Yeah. Maybe West Virginia too.  It seems more Appalachian/Rust Belt than truly Southern.

W. Virginia is more in its own category. I think if we let the South go it would split into little independent rural city states, like the Appalachians would form one or something, and then Louisiana would be its own country, and there would probably be an African-American country in Mississippi/Alabama for the ones who didn't leave. I don't think having the rural Midwest would be a problem, we liberals would outnumber them enough.

W. Virginia is more in its own category. I think if we let the South go it would split into little independent rural city states, like the Appalachians would form one or something, and then Louisiana would be its own country, and there would probably be an African-American country in Mississippi/Alabama for the ones who didn't leave. I don't think having the rural Midwest would be a problem, we liberals would outnumber them enough.


Yeah, W. Virginia and Ohio kind of form the "crossroads" of the Eastern United States.  Kind of like how Colorado and Utah are the crossroads of the West.

Yeah, exactly...NE Ohio and the Columbus area are very, very Northern in population makeup, demographic patterns, etc. but then Cincinnati is southern in values, Midwestern in ethnic makeup, and southern in economy, rural central Ohio is the Midwest, and SE Ohio is the Appalachian south. Indiana and Maryland are also sort of crossroads. Maryland has a NE industrial city (Baltimore), Appalachian areas near W. Virginia, the very northern D.C. suburbs, and Mid-Atlantic rural areas near the Chesapeake and the Atlantic that are also sort of southern. Indiana's southern areas are sort of between a Cincinnati mix and the real south, the north is like Illinois and Michigan, the rural corn areas are Midwestern, but the whole state is fairly southern in values.

Yeah, exactly...NE Ohio and the Columbus area are very, very Northern in population makeup, demographic patterns, etc. but then Cincinnati is southern in values, Midwestern in ethnic makeup, and southern in economy, rural central Ohio is the Midwest, and SE Ohio is the Appalachian south. Indiana and Maryland are also sort of crossroads. Maryland has a NE industrial city (Baltimore), Appalachian areas near W. Virginia, the very northern D.C. suburbs, and Mid-Atlantic rural areas near the Chesapeake and the Atlantic that are also sort of southern. Indiana's southern areas are sort of between a Cincinnati mix and the real south, the north is like Illinois and Michigan, the rural corn areas are Midwestern, but the whole state is fairly southern in values.


Wow!

Here in the West, there's a lot less variety of culture: there's the Pacific Northwest (Oregon, Washington, Northern California, Northern Idaho, and far western Montana), the Mountain/Desert West (southern Idaho, extreme eastern Oregon, Nevada - the Vegas area, most of Wyoming, southwestern Montana, the western 2/3 of Colorado, and most of Utah), the Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, southwestern Colorado, southern Utah, western Texas, and the Oklahoma Panhandle), and Californialand (the Bay area southward, and the Las Vegas area).


Culturally, they're all pretty similar; only California and Utah really have a distinct culture from the others.

Yeah, we have alot of deeply engrained cultural differences. Like Pennsylvania. W. Pennsylvania around Pittsburgh, Erie, and Altoona is the Northern rust belt, the central mountains are a crossroads area like the Appalachians, the same goes for the coal mining area, the isolated renewed ex-rust belt cities of Allentown and Bethlehem near NJ, then there's the "German Belt"/Pennsylvania Dutch area around York and Harrisburg with the Amish, then there's Philadelphia, which is an old NE city.

New York is another good example, it's more than downstate and upstate. Upstate NY has the really economically depressed backwoods areas like Binghamton, the rust belt along the former Erie Canal which is Northern rust belt, the country areas like Kingston along the Hudson River, the Appalachian mountain communities, and the French-Canadian areas near the St. Lawrence. Downstate can be divided into a few sections-Greater Westchester County/The Bronx/Manhattan, Dutchess and Putnam County, Orange and Rockland Counties (extension of Jersey), Long Island/Brooklyn/Queens/Staten Island. Really, Manhattan is its own little isolate. Staten Island is somewhere between Brooklyn and Jersey because all the Brooklyn Italians moved there, but it's pretty close to a Jersey without the good stuff culturally. In New Jersey, "Jersey" is Morris, Monmouth, Somerset, northern Ocean, Essex, Passaic, Hudson, Bergen, and Union counties. Then there's the Trenton area, which is like Pennsylvania, the NW country areas by the Delaware Water Gap, the Philly 'burbs around Camden, the Pine Barrens, the hickish semi-Southern Vineland area, and the Shore.

Yep, the backwoods are basically the mountainous deciduous forests in the Appalachians that were settled by Scots-Irish in the early 19th century and have been very backwards and economically depressed since, the people there call themselves "American"...it's a different world from the rest of the Mid-Atlantic. The term could also extend to Ohio, Kentucky, W. Virginia, Tennessee. People there might be miners or they might work at prisons or some such place, or they might be subsistence and market farmers, but it's away from the big commercial farming operations in Pennsylvania, NY, and NJ for dairy and fruit and vegetables and poultry.

Yep, the backwoods are basically the mountainous deciduous forests in the Appalachians that were settled by Scots-Irish in the early 19th century and have been very backwards and economically depressed since, the people there call themselves "American"...it's a different world from the rest of the Mid-Atlantic. The term could also extend to Ohio, Kentucky, W. Virginia, Tennessee. People there might be miners or they might work at prisons or some such place, or they might be subsistence and market farmers, but it's away from the big commercial farming operations in Pennsylvania, NY, and NJ for dairy and fruit and vegetables and poultry.


Our equivalent to the "backwoods" in the Oregon would be the Cascade Range forests.  Our "Outback" is the great eastern Oregon desert.

/sarcasm on

Hey, maybe South Dakota should pass a law that states women who have miscarriages (any miscarriage at all) should found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

/sarcasm off

I'd like to pose a few questions (mostly for the pro-lifers, but any may answer) here that'll probably get me into a heap of trouble, but here goes:

1: If your sole reason for being 100% anti-abortion is religious based, how is that not imposing your religious views onto others?

2: Why is it that everyone is so damned concerned about what everyone else is doing these days? Is it really going to affect you if a person you don't even know and have never met 2,000 miles away has an abortion?

3: I have to admit I'm not familiar with the Bible, but do fetuses get a free pass into Heaven? How does that work exactly? I mean, not to be funny or anything, but I just can't see fertilized embryos that were terminated before full-term birth kickin' it with God.

I think everyone here realises we do not live in an ideal world. In an ideal world (at least, part of my view of one), abortions would never be necessary because everyone would either practice abstinence or use protection until they are ready to have a child. Rape and incest wouldn't exist. Pregnancies would never be complicated to the point of having to make a decision between the mother's life and the unborn's. Adoptions wouldn't be restricted with enough red tape to encircle the planet. But...


We do not live in that world and we never will. I'll say it again, I don't like abortion but I believe it should be legal. People are going to have unprotected sex in the heat of the moment that results in babies. Hell, AIDS is around and they still do it. Does anyone seriously believe that by making abortion illegal people are going to take pause for that?

Someone mentioned a few pages back that one could travel to another state to get an abortion. Well, last time I checked a map SD looked like a pretty damned big state. Besides, if this trend continues, who's to say ND, Idaho, etc won't make it illegal too?  Turns that short drive into a plane trip to Mexico.

If you want to disagree in part or whole with what I've said, feel free, though attacks will not be tolerated.

Stuff like that has already happened sometimes in the past. Look at all the hate crimes against homosexuals committed by "christian" individuals. Fundamentalist Christians love guns and war, to them they're fighting a war against what they think is evil and some will resort to violent measures. They're really an evil bunch.


Most people like that are not "Christians".  They belong to what is known as the "Christian Identity" movement.  That is an ugly, hateful, racist movement that has no basis in real Christian teachings.

They bear as much relationship to Christianity as Al-Queda has to mainstream Islam.  Both are radical fringe movements, which break the laws of their religion, to advance their own ideal of "Religion".

Yeah, the only reason they even tolerate Jews and Catholics is because of respectively Israel and the abortion thing.


Oh please!  Now you are simply getting to be offensive.

I might as well say "they only tolerate Blacks and Hispanics because they make them look open minded".

Oh, but I would never do that, because it is a rude and offensive thing to say.

Last time in was secession, I got a better idea now, expulsion from the union for the South.  So long, and thanks for all the Southern fried steak!
;)


Of course Maxwell, you know what one of the first states was that threatened to seccede from the union was, right?

OK, I am going to do a kind of recap, for those that have never heard me talk about this topic before.

I am against abortion, for moral grounds.  And do not confuse morality with religion.  Unless you believe that morals can not exist without it, then you should be able to see the difference.

I also believe in a womans right to abortion because of danger to herself or having future children, deformity, and rape (I consider incest to be rape, unless it was willing).

I am against late term abortion, unless it is to save the life of the mother.  In my view, she had 6 months to do something if she simply did not want the child.  She should just wait a few more weeks/months, and give the child up for adoption.

I wish that more women would consider adoption in stead of abortion.  TO me, this is just accelerating the "throw-away society", so it now includes TV sets, VCRs, computers, marriage, and now babies.

My stepdaughter was concieved because of a rape.  This was before I met her mother.  My ex almost had an abortion.  In fact, she was lying on the doctors table after having been given a local anesthetic, when she changed her mind.  She also considered adoption, until after she was born.

And we had our own situation several years later that brought us face-to-face with anti-abortionists.  In 1988, we found out she was pregnant again (our family then included us, her daughter, and our son).  We were not planning on any more children, but would deal with it.  However, it was not meant to be.

During the 2nd month, she started to get severe pain and bleeding, and was taken to the hospital.  It turns out that the pregnancy was tubal, so the only thing to do was to have an abortion.  It was hard on both of us, but had to be done.

3 weeks later, the phone calls started.  At first, it was during the day when I was at work.  WHen my ex would pick up the phone, they would scream "baby killer" at her, and hang up.  A few weeks later, they started calling at night.  I tried to explain what happened, and that she would have died if she did not have the abortion.  THe response?  "That would have been God's will."  That is nonsense, because God would not have wanted to leave 2 children without their mother.

We changed our phone, and the calls came anyways.  We finally got help from Naval Investigative Service (I was an active duty Marine at the time).  Turns out that they had been tracking this group, and they got their information from hospital billing records.  These do not show the cause of the abortion, simply that it was done.  Because the Military paid for it, it allowed them to get involved.  Within a month, the calls stopped.

To me, this goes right back to responsibility.  Every adult knows what causes pregnancy, and how to prevent it.  And since rape is less then 1% of abortions, I do not even understand the amount of attention devoted to it.

And here is another statistic, 75-80% of women who are raped keep their children.  TO a great many (like my ex), it is a way for them to put it in the past, that something good came from something that was horrible and traumatic.

My stepdaughter is 24 now.  I could not imagine a world without her in it either.

My feelings on abortion are simple, I don't really like abortion because I believe that there are better options, however I believe that women should have the right to decide whether or not to have an abortion early in the pregnancy. I am dead against parital-birth abortion, and it should be outlawed with the only exception in cases where the mother's life is on the line. Even if a woman was raped, she should have already made the decision whether or not to have the abortion by then.

I would like to go slightly off topic here and ask how good is the sex education programme in American schools?
In parts of the U.K for example it's so bad you still have kids believing they won't get pregnant if they do it standing up, or it's the first tuesday in march or whatever. I think in this day and age kids are bombarded with images on T.V, in magazines etc to be old before their time, or to be sexual beings before they are ready. Also there is the peer pressure to fit in and be grown up and cool.
I went to a school in an area where teenage pregnancy was sky high so my school decided to bring in a very comprehensive sex education programme. It was a no holds barred lesson and boy did it work ! The figures dropped dramatically in the first 2 years.
This was despite those critics who said if you tell kids about sex you're only encouraging them to go out and do it, which is crap.If they are going to do it they are going to do it regardless, but at least let them know how to protect themselves. 

I would like to go slightly off topic here and ask how good is the sex education programme in American schools?
In parts of the U.K for example it's so bad you still have kids believing they won't get pregnant if they do it standing up, or it's the first tuesday in march or whatever. I think in this day and age kids are bombarded with images on T.V, in magazines etc to be old before their time, or to be sexual beings before they are ready. Also there is the peer pressure to fit in and be grown up and cool.
I went to a school in an area where teenage pregnancy was sky high so my school decided to bring in a very comprehensive sex education programme. It was a no holds barred lesson and boy did it work ! The figures dropped dramatically in the first 2 years.
This was despite those critics who said if you tell kids about sex you're only encouraging them to go out and do it, which is crap.If they are going to do it they are going to do it regardless, but at least let them know how to protect themselves. 
i thiink here it's very regional. in progressive districts it can be quite good but in rural and conservative districts it's basically, if you feel a pang of sexual desire, hit yourself on the head with a bible till it stops. class dismissed.

i thiink here it's very regional. in progressive districts it can be quite good but in rural and conservative districts it's basically, if you feel a pang of sexual desire, hit yourself on a head with a bible till it stops. class dismissed.


In proregressive districts it usually involves sex surveys (like those in California) asking kindergarten students if they ever "touched themselves" or, of course, the old condom on a cucumber/banana.

The second sentence isn't even worthy of a response it's so dumb.

The second sentence isn't even worthy of a response it's so dumb.
hello? that's basically what "abstinence" sex ed amounts to.

oop! i looked at a girl. *thwack.*

In proregressive districts it usually involves sex surveys (like those in California) asking kindergarten students if they ever "touched themselves" or, of course, the old condom on a cucumber/banana.

The second sentence isn't even worthy of a response it's so dumb.


Umm...we NEVER had a sex survey in kindergarten, and I'm from New Jersey, and I was in kindergarten in 1995-1996, the peak of the PC sex ed movement, probably. We had a ridiculous 7th grade teacher  who explained to us that the vagina is like a mouth, all the girls in the class laughed...and it was pretty stupidly futile. In 9th grade we did the old condom on a wooden penis. And we talked about abstinence and did activities about how to put on a condom, and the spread of STDs, and watched horrific videos of STDs and teen pregnancies. But yeah, in the Carolinas, you sign a stupid abstinence pledge. All the good that will do.

I know somebody who moved here from the Carolinas when she was in 7th grade...all the girls around there wore abstinence rings and took abstinence pledges. Their sex ed amounted to them swearing not to have sex. She had just been indoctrinated against sex, but she wasn't too sure about sex itself, I think. And when she came here she was shocked by the detail in sex ed. There's no promotion of having sex, really, but there's actual education about it. In senior sex ed you may write about a sexual fantasy, but you cannot use intercourse.

Umm...we NEVER had a sex survey in kindergarten, and I'm from New Jersey, and I was in kindergarten in 1995-1996, the peak of the PC sex ed movement, probably. We had a ridiculous 7th grade teacher  who explained to us that the vagina is like a mouth, all the girls in the class laughed...and it was pretty stupidly futile. In 9th grade we did the old condom on a wooden penis. And we talked about abstinence and did activities about how to put on a condom, and the spread of STDs, and watched horrific videos of STDs and teen pregnancies. But yeah, in the Carolinas, you sign a stupid abstinence pledge. All the good that will do.
i think this is sorta like that bill o'reilly outlawing christmas thing. probably some one liberal school board councilmember suggested once during a board meeting that maybe we should ask 2nd graders if they've ever been touched in a bad way in order to pre-emptively find child predators and then the rightists grabbed onto it and played a game of telephone with it and soon it became, hoardes of undocumented alien undead liberals are chasing pre-schoolers with cucumbers that have rubbers on them! :o

i think this is sorta like that bill o'reilly outlawing christmas thing. probably some one liberal school board councilmember suggested once during a board meeting that maybe we should ask 2nd graders if they've ever been touched in a bad way in order to pre-emptively find child predators and then the rightists grabbed onto it and played a game of telephone with it and soon it became, hoardes of undocumented alien undead liberals are chasing pre-schoolers with cucumbers that have rubbers on them! :o


Yes, and they're all homosexual Jews covered in chardonnay! With Hillary Clinton! Waving violent heavy metal albums on them! And wearing lingerie and burqas! Spooky!

/sarcasm on

Hey, maybe South Dakota should pass a law that states women who have miscarriages (any miscarriage at all) should found guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

/sarcasm off

I'd like to pose a few questions (mostly for the pro-lifers, but any may answer) here that'll probably get me into a heap of trouble, but here goes:

1: If your sole reason for being 100% anti-abortion is religious based, how is that not imposing your religious views onto others?

2: Why is it that everyone is so damned concerned about what everyone else is doing these days? Is it really going to affect you if a person you don't even know and have never met 2,000 miles away has an abortion?

3: I have to admit I'm not familiar with the Bible, but do fetuses get a free pass into Heaven? How does that work exactly? I mean, not to be funny or anything, but I just can't see fertilized embryos that were terminated before full-term birth kickin' it with God.

I think everyone here realises we do not live in an ideal world. In an ideal world (at least, part of my view of one), abortions would never be necessary because everyone would either practice abstinence or use protection until they are ready to have a child. Rape and incest wouldn't exist. Pregnancies would never be complicated to the point of having to make a decision between the mother's life and the unborn's. Adoptions wouldn't be restricted with enough red tape to encircle the planet. But...


We do not live in that world and we never will. I'll say it again, I don't like abortion but I believe it should be legal. People are going to have unprotected sex in the heat of the moment that results in babies. Hell, AIDS is around and they still do it. Does anyone seriously believe that by making abortion illegal people are going to take pause for that?

Someone mentioned a few pages back that one could travel to another state to get an abortion. Well, last time I checked a map SD looked like a pretty damned big state. Besides, if this trend continues, who's to say ND, Idaho, etc won't make it illegal too?  Turns that short drive into a plane trip to Mexico.

If you want to disagree in part or whole with what I've said, feel free, though attacks will not be tolerated.


A - A comparing a miscariage to an abortion is like comparing hitting someone accidently with your car to going up behind them and slitting their throat. Now to you having someone run out infront of your car, slamming on your breaks, doing everything you can to avoid hitting them, but hitting them and killing them may be just as bad as walking up behind them grabbing their hair yanking on it, then slowly running a sharp knife across their neck. To me they are two completely different things, the same as a miscarriage and an abortion.

B - My reasoning behind being against abortion is not 100% religious.  It's one of my reasonings but it's not my main reason.  My main reason is liberty and justice.  Everyone deserves a chance, everyone has the right to life.  No one should have another person take that away from them. No one should be told they aren't good enough to be given the opportunity that everyone else has.  Abortion does just that, it tells those babies they aren't good enough, they don't deserve to live, no one gives a rat's about them.  I won't stand for it, I care about them. I want to see them get there chance, and I hope someday I have enough political power to help change the adoption agency and the foster care agency and other programs to help out these kids, whose mothers hate them.  I use God in my argument a lot because that gives me foundation. I am a christian and I believe in God.  Abortion rights activist demand foundation and grounds to stand on for why, "I believe abortion is wrong".  I've found in the past they don't accept, "I just do".  They have to have a basic ideal from where it comes from, and no better one than the Bible.

C - This life isn't just about me.  I was put here on this Earth to do more than just help myself out.  I believe in Justice for all and abortion is the acception in this country to "justice for all."  Doesn't matter if it affects me or not.  If someone was trying to take my life away from me, take away each and every single opportunity I've ever had or will have for that matter.  I'd want someone sticking up for me, I'd want someone trying to save me.  Therefore I do the same for them.

D - This is an area I struggle with.  Most kids don't accept Jesus Christ into their hearts until at least they learn to talk.  So it makes me wonder what happens to 0-2 year olds and others who haven't made the journey yet when they die.  I personally struggle with the concept of Heaven being real and this is one of the main reasons.  I trust in the loving God I beleive in that the answer to your question is yes, they do have a free pass into Heaven.

E - You're 100% right that this world isn't ideal or perfect and you're even more right that it never will be. But you're wrong in believing that it can't be better.  4,000 abortions a day, that's way to many, way way way to many.  A large percentage of abortions are given to women who've already had an abortion or more, this shouldn't be allowed.  There is not enough fear or shame when it comes to abortions.  So many pro choice people wanna say that it's a tough, hard decision to get an abortion, like 99% of the time for women. I Know this isn't true.  You can't tell me a woman goes into the clinic for a third abortion having doubts and questions. You can't tell me right now that a boy about to have sex with his girlfriend and he says, "but wait I don't have a condom" then the girl say's, "Don't worry about it, just pull out, if I get pregnant I can get an abortion."  that it's a tough decision for her.  I don' buy it and I won't.  This world can be so much better in so many ways.  Maybe we can't eliminate abortions but I know we can actually do what liberals claim, and that's "make them RARE" which they at the moment are as rare as a burnt steak.

OK, I am going to do a kind of recap, for those that have never heard me talk about this topic before.

I am against abortion, for moral grounds.  And do not confuse morality with religion.  Unless you believe that morals can not exist without it, then you should be able to see the difference.

I also believe in a womans right to abortion because of danger to herself or having future children, deformity, and rape (I consider incest to be rape, unless it was willing).

I am against late term abortion, unless it is to save the life of the mother.  In my view, she had 6 months to do something if she simply did not want the child.  She should just wait a few more weeks/months, and give the child up for adoption.

I wish that more women would consider adoption in stead of abortion.  TO me, this is just accelerating the "throw-away society", so it now includes TV sets, VCRs, computers, marriage, and now babies.

My stepdaughter was concieved because of a rape.  This was before I met her mother.  My ex almost had an abortion.  In fact, she was lying on the doctors table after having been given a local anesthetic, when she changed her mind.  She also considered adoption, until after she was born.

And we had our own situation several years later that brought us face-to-face with anti-abortionists.  In 1988, we found out she was pregnant again (our family then included us, her daughter, and our son).  We were not planning on any more children, but would deal with it.  However, it was not meant to be.

During the 2nd month, she started to get severe pain and bleeding, and was taken to the hospital.  It turns out that the pregnancy was tubal, so the only thing to do was to have an abortion.  It was hard on both of us, but had to be done.

3 weeks later, the phone calls started.  At first, it was during the day when I was at work.  WHen my ex would pick up the phone, they would scream "baby killer" at her, and hang up.  A few weeks later, they started calling at night.  I tried to explain what happened, and that she would have died if she did not have the abortion.  THe response?  "That would have been God's will."  That is nonsense, because God would not have wanted to leave 2 children without their mother.

We changed our phone, and the calls came anyways.  We finally got help from Naval Investigative Service (I was an active duty Marine at the time).  Turns out that they had been tracking this group, and they got their information from hospital billing records.  These do not show the cause of the abortion, simply that it was done.  Because the Military paid for it, it allowed them to get involved.  Within a month, the calls stopped.

To me, this goes right back to responsibility.  Every adult knows what causes pregnancy, and how to prevent it.  And since rape is less then 1% of abortions, I do not even understand the amount of attention devoted to it.

And here is another statistic, 75-80% of women who are raped keep their children.  TO a great many (like my ex), it is a way for them to put it in the past, that something good came from something that was horrible and traumatic.

My stepdaughter is 24 now.  I could not imagine a world without her in it either.


I'm really sorry to hear the way that some of the anti-abortion people treated you.  I know very few people who are as against abortion as I am but I realize that God made this world very grey and acceptions go to everything and everyone.  They should have listened to your story and known that you just didn't kill the baby out of selfishness or hatred like the majority of abortions each and every single day, but you had a legitmate reason and really no other option. 

Rape gets so much attention on abortions because it's the one area where you can't point the finger at the woman.  You can't hold her responsible or make her the guilty verdict in the situation.  Pro choice and pro abortion people know that other than rape, insest and death to the mother they have no legitmate reasonings behind abortion that anyone else would agree with.  They try and say, she's a prostitute, or she's to young, or she's not ready, or she doesn't want more kids, and to us that's a wanted abortion that's pregnancy could have been easily avoided, not a needed one, and wanted ones we want to eliminate. 

I have nothing but the outmost admiration for a woman who was raped and decided to keep her baby or give it up for adoption.  First hand observation, I know how hard that can be.  I've had the privilage of knowing three rape babies in my life, and I can't thank the women enough for letting me know them. 

I have nothing but the outmost admiration for a woman who was raped and decided to keep her baby or give it up for adoption.  First hand observation, I know how hard that can be.  I've had the privilage of knowing three rape babies in my life, and I can't thank the women enough for letting me know them. 



Nothing tugs my heart strings more than sanctimony, Harmy!
:P

Nothing tugs my heart strings more than sanctimony, Harmy!
:P


Considering you support those on this message board who use hyprocrtical devoutness to and for themselves, yes you would.

And it will be immediately overturned because it's an illegal ban.

untill it's overtuned, people will simply travel to a state where it's still leagal and have the abortion there. THANK YOU JESUS!!!!

untill it's overtuned, people will simply travel to a state where it's still leagal and have the abortion there. THANK YOU JESUS!!!!


1943....... Until the nazis quit blaming the Jews, the Jews will have to escape Germany, THANK YOU HITLER!

1943....... Until the nazis quit blaming the Jews, the Jews will have to escape Germany, THANK YOU HITLER!




so the women fleeing abortion-abolishing states are like persecuted jews, and the anti-abortionists are like the nazis? couldn't have said it better myself. THANK YOU HARMONICA!

1943....... Until the nazis quit blaming the Jews, the Jews will have to escape Germany, THANK YOU HITLER!




More like 1939. Like a quarter of my family was killed in the Holocaust. All the Holocaust survivors in my family hate Bush and fundamentalist Christians even more than I do, because they're just as big a threat as the Nazis if we don't quash them now. My grandmother escaped narrowly in 1939 from Germany to England, where she worked first as a maid, then found a working-class family to live with and scrubbed the floors of mental hospitals. She then came to NYC and got a scholarship to Sarah Lawrence College and was one of the first women to graduate from Columbia University Law School. I never met her, but until she was killed in a 1975 car crash she taught sixth graders in Spanish Harlem.

Yes, thank you Harmonica! And how dare you talk about Jews who perished in the Holocaust like that. My Holocaust-survivor background is part of the reason I hate fundie right-wingers virulently.

More like 1939. Like a quarter of my family was killed in the Holocaust. All the Holocaust survivors in my family hate Bush and fundamentalist Christians even more than I do, because they're just as big a threat as the Nazis if we don't quash them now. My grandmother escaped narrowly in 1939 from Germany to England, where she worked first as a maid, then found a working-class family to live with and scrubbed the floors of mental hospitals. She then came to NYC and got a scholarship to Sarah Lawrence College and was one of the first women to graduate from Columbia University Law School. I never met her, but until she was killed in a 1975 car crash she taught sixth graders in Spanish Harlem.

Yes, thank you Harmonica! And how dare you talk about Jews who perished in the Holocaust like that. My Holocaust-survivor background is part of the reason I hate fundie right-wingers virulently.

Prescott Bush and family funded the Nazi Party bigtime, and Karl Rove's grandfather was a commandante in a Nazi Concentration camp....but are the sins of the father visited upon the son?  You decide...

Prescott Bush and family funded the Nazi Party bigtime, and Karl Rove's grandfather was a commandante in a Nazi Concentration camp....but are the sins of the father visited upon the son?  You decide...


My family and I consider all the administration Jews to be traitors to their Jewish identity.

My family and I consider all the administration Jews to be traitors to their Jewish identity.

Not just Jewish identity, decent human identity of any sort!
>:(

Not just Jewish identity, decent human identity of any sort!
>:(


Exactly, but it's particularly enigmatic considering their ancestry. Makes me wonder if this is why Israel's been going so badly lately.

so the women fleeing abortion-abolishing states are like persecuted jews, and the anti-abortionists are like the nazis? couldn't have said it better myself. THANK YOU HARMONICA!

No that's now what I meant. I can tell you exactly how the babies are like the Jews.  Innocent people being slaughtered at the convinence of the plain fact that others don't want them around.  Many of the  Nazi's like many of  the mother's of these babies have hatred towards them. The babies like the Jews are being genocided like no other.

You make anologies that make absolutely no sense and do not hold together.  First you thank Jesus for something that Jesus would never do.  If Jesus had his way, no baby killing whatsoever would take place, end of story.  The criminal as the victem doesn't work either and the victem as the criminal doesn't work either.

More like 1939. Like a quarter of my family was killed in the Holocaust. All the Holocaust survivors in my family hate Bush and fundamentalist Christians even more than I do, because they're just as big a threat as the Nazis if we don't quash them now. My grandmother escaped narrowly in 1939 from Germany to England, where she worked first as a maid, then found a working-class family to live with and scrubbed the floors of mental hospitals. She then came to NYC and got a scholarship to Sarah Lawrence College and was one of the first women to graduate from Columbia University Law School. I never met her, but until she was killed in a 1975 car crash she taught sixth graders in Spanish Harlem.

Yes, thank you Harmonica! And how dare you talk about Jews who perished in the Holocaust like that. My Holocaust-survivor background is part of the reason I hate fundie right-wingers virulently.


You're the Nazi or the Nazi supporter. I'm the Jew lover.  I'm the one saying, "STOP this genocide" and your the one yelling, "burn baby burn"...litteraly meaning Baby in this situation.

If Jesus had his way, no baby killing whatsoever would take place, end of story. 
heh heh. who would jesus bomb?

yeah, the jesus the fundies worship is quite a bloodthirsty one, in fact. the multicelled foetus is about the only life he spares out of hand.

You're the Nazi or the Nazi supporter. I'm the Jew lover.  I'm the one saying, "STOP this genocide" and your the one yelling, "burn baby burn"...litteraly meaning Baby in this situation.


How dare you call me a Nazi supporter. How f-ing dare you.

The Jesus you fundies worship isn't exactly a saint. He's more a tool for whatever agenda they want that day.

How dare you call me a Nazi supporter. How f-ing dare you.

The Jesus you fundies worship isn't exactly a saint. He's more a tool for whatever agenda they want that day.


Don't listen to him he can't accept the fact that some people do think differently than him.

A - A comparing a miscariage to an abortion is like comparing hitting someone accidently with your car to going up behind them and slitting their throat. Now to you having someone run out infront of your car, slamming on your breaks, doing everything you can to avoid hitting them, but hitting them and killing them may be just as bad as walking up behind them grabbing their hair yanking on it, then slowly running a sharp knife across their neck. To me they are two completely different things, the same as a miscarriage and an abortion.



The comparison is valid IMO. I haven't had the chance to fully review the law that is about to be signed by the govenor, but we are coming dangerously close to giving fetuses the same rights as people.

You actually made my point though. While there is a huge difference in vehicular homicide and pre-meditated murder, both often result in jailtime, which is part of the impending SD law. Abortion doctors will get 5 years in prsion for performing an abortion.




B - My reasoning behind being against abortion is not 100% religious.  It's one of my reasonings but it's not my main reason.  My main reason is liberty and justice.  Everyone deserves a chance, everyone has the right to life.  No one should have another person take that away from them. No one should be told they aren't good enough to be given the opportunity that everyone else has.  Abortion does just that, it tells those babies they aren't good enough, they don't deserve to live, no one gives a rat's about them.  I won't stand for it, I care about them. I want to see them get there chance, and I hope someday I have enough political power to help change the adoption agency and the foster care agency and other programs to help out these kids, whose mothers hate them.   I use God in my argument a lot because that gives me foundation. I am a christian and I believe in God.  Abortion rights activist demand foundation and grounds to stand on for why, "I believe abortion is wrong".  I've found in the past they don't accept, "I just do".  They have to have a basic ideal from where it comes from, and no better one than the Bible.



I believe abortion is wrong too but it is 0% religous based. It is more a matter of practicality and observing the current situation in America. We already have thousands if not millions of people who are homeless, drug addicts, etc who should be helped first.



C - This life isn't just about me.  I was put here on this Earth to do more than just help myself out.  I believe in Justice for all and abortion is the acception in this country to "justice for all."   Doesn't matter if it affects me or not.  If someone was trying to take my life away from me, take away each and every single opportunity I've ever had or will have for that matter.  I'd want someone sticking up for me, I'd want someone trying to save me.  Therefore I do the same for them.



I admire this point but the sentence "If someone was trying to take my life away from me..." is moot since you are already here. We already have laws against that and further discussion of this point is well beyond the scope of this thread.



D - This is an area I struggle with.  Most kids don't accept Jesus Christ into their hearts until at least they learn to talk.  So it makes me wonder what happens to 0-2 year olds and others who haven't made the journey yet when they die.  I personally struggle with the concept of Heaven being real and this is one of the main reasons.  I trust in the loving God I beleive in that the answer to your question is yes, they do have a free pass into Heaven.



I appreciate your honest 'I don't really know' type answer on this point since no one knows for sure.



E - You're 100% right that this world isn't ideal or perfect and you're even more right that it never will be.



Thanks for agreeing with me on this.



But you're wrong in believing that it can't be better. 



I do believe it can be better, but I don't think an absolute law such as ND's pending one is any better than allowing unrestricted abortion.



4,000 abortions a day, that's way to many, way way way to many. A large percentage of abortions are given to women who've already had an abortion or more, this shouldn't be allowed.



Although I rarely take numbers/percentages like this at face value, I will in this case trust that 4k is a somewhat to highly accurate figure.



There is not enough fear or shame when it comes to abortions.   So many pro choice people wanna say that it's a tough, hard decision to get an abortion, like 99% of the time for women. I Know this isn't true.



Well, since neither of us are women we can't really say that, can we? My wife on the other hand, who had an abortion shortly before I met her just described it to me as the 'toughest and hardest decison of her life'.

My postion is there isn't enough proper education on the matter. Sex ed, when I was in high school, was a joke. There we were, mostly 15 and 16 years old getting talked to like we were 5. Of course, schools shouldn't have to educate kids on this, I believe that is the parents' job but that too is beyond the scope of this discussion.



You can't tell me a woman goes into the clinic for a third abortion having doubts and questions.



Again, I do not know the statistics on how many abortions are performed on women who have already had one, but your point is made here.



You can't tell me right now that a boy about to have sex with his girlfriend and he says, "but wait I don't have a condom" then the girl say's, "Don't worry about it, just pull out, if I get pregnant I can get an abortion."  that it's a tough decision for her.   I don' buy it and I won't.



Point made here too. I will say though that I have been in 'heat of the moment' situations before and even though I know all about how babies are made and STDs, sex drive is a powerful thing an can override common sense.



This world can be so much better in so many ways.  Maybe we can't eliminate abortions but I know we can actually do what liberals claim, and that's "make them RARE" which they at the moment are as rare as a burnt steak.



I neither know nor care what "liberals claim" since I'm not really affiliated with either party. I'll agree with you that abortions happen too often for my tastes as well.



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Okay Harmonica, lets say for arguments sake you and I alone are deciding the entire US law system regarding abortion. What compromises are you willing to make? Not that I think abortion should even be a legislative issue and also knowing for certain that no matter what we decide that approximately half of the country is going to disagree with it, what would you propose?

Here's my offer:

Unrestricted abortion during the first trimester only.

Anything after that only in cases where the baby poses a serious risk to the mothers' health.

There's a very crude and basic abortion law, but it is a compromise between 'no abortions ever (like SD is proposing) and free and unrestricted access to abortion. Counter with what you think would be reasonable in a real world.

How dare you call me a Nazi supporter. How f-ing dare you.

The Jesus you fundies worship isn't exactly a saint. He's more a tool for whatever agenda they want that day.


You picked a fight, you got one. 

heh heh. who would jesus bomb?

yeah, the jesus the fundies worship is quite a bloodthirsty one, in fact. the multicelled foetus is about the only life he spares out of hand.


Jesus wouldn't bomb anybody.  I haven't bombed anyone.  I haven't sniped anyone either.  You don't stop killing by killing. Seems like it'd work, but in the long run it doesn't. 

Don't listen to him he can't accept the fact that some people do think differently than him.


I can, you can't.

Jesus wouldn't bomb anybody.  I haven't bombed anyone.  I haven't sniped anyone either.  You don't stop killing by killing. Seems like it'd work, but in the long run it doesn't. 


Bush and his friends, supposedly Christians, seem to love war (though they wouldn't fight one).

Bush and his friends, supposedly Christians, seem to love war (though they wouldn't fight one).


There are fakes and wannabes as well as the confused in every area, this one isn't an acception.

Combine replies into one post, please.