Well, well,  surprise, surprise.  georgie was informed that the levee broke and of the devestation in New Orleans the very night it
happened, and went to Texas on vacation.  Just a few exerpts.
aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060209231609990004

White House officials have confirmed to investigators that the report of the levee breach arrived at midnight the night Katrina made landfall.

"FYI from FEMA," said an e-mail message from the agency's public affairs staff describing the helicopter flight, sent Monday night at 9:27 to the chief of staff of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and recently unearthed by investigators. Conditions, the message said, "are far more serious than media reports are currently reflecting. Finding extensive flooding and more stranded people than they had thought - also a number of fires."

It has been known since the earliest days of the storm that all levels of government - from the White House to the Department of Homeland Security to the Louisiana Capitol to New Orleans City Hall - were unprepared, uncommunicative, and phlegmatic in protecting Gulf Coast residents from the floodwaters and their aftermath.

As his helicopter approached the site, Mr. Bahamonde testified in October, there was no mistaking what had happened: large sections of the levee had fallen over, leaving the section of the city on the collapsed side entirely submerged, but the neighborhood just on the other side relatively dry. He snapped a picture of the scene with a small camera he had.

"The situation is only going to get worse," he said he warned Mr. Brown, then the FEMA director, whom he called about 8 p.m. Monday Eastern time to report on his helicopter tour.

I thought it was bad news personally that they still went ahead with the New Orleans Jazz festivities which cost a fortune, yet there are still thousands of displaced people without a home and needing assistance.

Well, well,  surprise, surprise.  georgie was informed that the levee broke and of the devestation in New Orleans the very night it
happened, and went to Texas on vacation.  Just a few exerpts.
aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20060209231609990004

White House officials have confirmed to investigators that the report of the levee breach arrived at midnight the night Katrina made landfall.

"FYI from FEMA," said an e-mail message from the agency's public affairs staff describing the helicopter flight, sent Monday night at 9:27 to the chief of staff of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and recently unearthed by investigators. Conditions, the message said, "are far more serious than media reports are currently reflecting. Finding extensive flooding and more stranded people than they had thought - also a number of fires."

It has been known since the earliest days of the storm that all levels of government - from the White House to the Department of Homeland Security to the Louisiana Capitol to New Orleans City Hall - were unprepared, uncommunicative, and phlegmatic in protecting Gulf Coast residents from the floodwaters and their aftermath.

As his helicopter approached the site, Mr. Bahamonde testified in October, there was no mistaking what had happened: large sections of the levee had fallen over, leaving the section of the city on the collapsed side entirely submerged, but the neighborhood just on the other side relatively dry. He snapped a picture of the scene with a small camera he had.

"The situation is only going to get worse," he said he warned Mr. Brown, then the FEMA director, whom he called about 8 p.m. Monday Eastern time to report on his helicopter tour.




Why should the government spend money rebuilding for the folks when they can get private developers to build hotels and theme parks instead?  Nothing in the Constitution says you have any right to government assistance after a disaster destorys your home, so just go away and stay away!
Fog de po'!

Another shining example of how our government takes care of its lower-middle class and poor citizens! NOT!

infuriating.

so the question is, were they incompetent? or did they not care? i rather think the latter. i've said it before and i'll say it again, the bushies love to be in office but they hate to govern. and i really honestly think they thought of new orleans as a sinful city and the hurricane as the wrath of god. they're freaky that way, with their little fundie/apocalyptic streak.

Another shining example of how our government takes care of its lower-middle class and poor citizens! NOT!


More so how the out and out lie

infuriating.

so the question is, were they incompetent? or did they not care? i rather think the latter. i've said it before and i'll say it again, the bushies love to be in office but they hate to govern. and i really honestly think they thought of new orleans as a sinful city and the hurricane as the wrath of god. they're freaky that way, with their little fundie/apocalyptic streak.



The bushes don't care about anything but power.  The office gives them power, that is why they wanted it.  It is obvious that they don't
care about anyone but them and their ilk.

um..not sure how the 'system' works, was George supposed to grab a shovel then fly down to help or does he have someone appointed to issue help?

If the latter....what do we do now that word was he was informed?
As I always contend-for a few times now-if GB is the head of the govmnt. 'company' and many mistakes are constantly made that are wrong, shouldn't we replace the head?
I think that's how businesses work, but if it a constant and not enough call for a change, you get what you already have and will have to live with it. :-\\ 

um..not sure how the 'system' works, was George supposed to grab a shovel then fly down to help or does he have someone appointed to issue help?

i guess he was supposed to go on vacation.

um..not sure how the 'system' works, was George supposed to grab a shovel then fly down to help or does he have someone appointed to issue help?

If the latter....what do we do now that word was he was informed?
As I always contend-for a few times now-if GB is the head of the govmnt. 'company' and many mistakes are constantly made that are wrong, shouldn't we replace the head?
I think that's how businesses work, but if it a constant and not enough call for a change, you get what you already have and will have to live with it. :-\\ 

It's not impossible.  Herbert f**king Hoover got the 1927 Louisiana flood well under control with emergency aid, supplies, and relief funds in under a week!!!
Think about it...Herbert Hoover in 1927!!!!
:P

It's not impossible.  Herbert f**king Hoover got the 1927 Louisiana flood well under control with emergency aid, supplies, and relief funds in under a week!!!
Think about it...Herbert Hoover in 1927!!!!
:P



No wonder they named a dam after him.  :P

[quote author=�y

a common misconception. that dam was actually named after the vacuum cleaner.

And the vacuum cleaner was named by Clyde Tolson after J. Edgar Hoover for a certain reason which will have to remain unsaid!
:-X

There are even some fools who think Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for pro-choice supporters, as well as gays/lesbians...Fools like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson!

There are even some fools who think Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for pro-choice supporters, as well as gays/lesbians...Fools like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson!


Wonder how they explain all those demolished churches?  ???

God does not need to be a punishing God.  Man doles out plenty of punishment on himself every day by not following the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule.  I don't mean to sound preachy here, it's just an observation.  Ironically, I'm agnostic and I don't say you MUST worship Yahweh before all others, but the older I get, the other Commandments seem less and less like a story from ancient scrolls and more and more like practical advice.  Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet....pretty good guidance.  Do either one and you'll suffer for it, I guarantee!
:o

God does not need to be a punishing God.  Man doles out plenty of punishment on himself every day by not following the Ten Commandments and the Golden Rule.  I don't mean to sound preachy here, it's just an observation.  Ironically, I'm agnostic and I don't say you MUST worship Yahweh before all others, but the older I get, the other Commandments seem less and less like a story from ancient scrolls and more and more like practical advice.  Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not covet....pretty good guidance.  Do either one and you'll suffer for it, I guarantee!
:o


You don't have to be a believer to find wisdom in the words of the Bible, Torah, Koran, or any other sacred tome.  It is another case of baby with the bath water.  ;)

Wonder how they explain all those demolished churches?  ???
They would probably say 'Oh those churches got taken out because they have support groups for gays and lesbians' or 'They must have been Roman Catholics'

I don't think Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell represent all Christians.

I don't think Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell represent all Christians.



I don't think Pat or Jerry represent any Christians at all.

I still think Roy Nagin was ignorant of the imminent danger New Orleans residents were in, and that he's just as much to blame for not getting everyone out, because he indeed failed to inform folks that Amtrak would evacuate them gratis. And now he's making an a$$ out of himself with some of his stupid comments....
In Atlantic City they take major storms seriously...many city residents get the h*ll out any way they can, because flooding is a major problem even with severe nor'easters! And there are still residents who remember what happened in 1944(Hurricane) and 1962(big nor'easter that caused major flooding on the coast).

OK, now I am curious.

OK, so what should Presidnt Bush have done?  Should he have tried to mobilize the entire US Military stateside, and ordered them to immediately march into a hurricane?

When he saw how badly the Mayor and Governor were bungling things, should he have declaired Martial Law, and walked all over them?

This to me is so much like the complaints I heard about when he was in front of the children when he was told of the 2nd plane hitting the WTC.  What should he have done?  Have the Secret Service storm in, and then run out of the room screaming "We have to do something!"????

I always have, and always will place primary blame on the local officials.  I look at places like Mobile, which was damaged just as badly as NO was.  But things there are progressing.  Boloxi Mississippi was devistated as well, and half of the casinos are open again.  All of the devistated areas of Alabama and Missippippi are rebuilding.  The loss of life in both of those states is very-very low when compared to that of Louisiana.  And don't forget Florida, which got the first damage.  They have already recovered from Katrina (and all the other hurricanes that year and the year before).

To me, I see a city and state that is horribly corrupt.  They have proven how badly they messed things up, and are now trying to divert attention.  The Mayor did not even take the step of trying to mobilize his own police department!  He refused to authorize overtime pay that would allow off-duty police officers to stay at the station to help during and after the hurricane struck.  The Governor knew this was comming, and did nothing to mobilize the National Guard.  Here in Alabama, they are mobilized 24-72 hours before a Hurricane strikes.  That way they are ready to move in as soon as it is safe.  There were units from my town in Mobile (300 miles away) helping in recovery before Louisiana was even mobilized.

Before anybody even starts to bitch at how the Federal Level screwed things up, they should be concentrating on how the Local and State levels really screwed things up.

Or do you all want an autocratic Federal Government, that will immediately step in and take over for everything that happens on a local level?  Which nationalizes the State National Guard, and ignores the local officials?  Where the FBI steps in immediately when the local police can't solve a case?

OK, now I am curious.

OK, so what should Presidnt Bush have done?  Should he have tried to mobilize the entire US Military stateside, and ordered them to immediately march into a hurricane?

well, at least a couple ice trucks would have been nice. a helicopter or two to evacuate those folks from the superdome? why is it every time this comes up you evoke some bugaboo about "the entire US military stateside," as though that were even marginally germaine? ANY aid would have been nice, and i don't see why it had necessarily to have been the military, even, except that that lets you make your specious posse comitatus argument.

When he saw how badly the Mayor and Governor were bungling things, should he have declaired Martial Law, and walked all over them?

and this again, maybe the mayor and governor were marginally at fault for the first few hours, but once nagin himself was stuck eating MREs and so much of the city's and governor's resources were themselves made inoperative by the storm, what were THEY supposed to do? go on vacation like bush and condolleezza rice?

This to me is so much like the complaints I heard about when he was in front of the children when he was told of the 2nd plane hitting the WTC.  What should he have done?  Have the Secret Service storm in, and then run out of the room screaming "We have to do something!"????

um... leave the damn room?!? do something? anything? anything at all???? you keep taking it to extremes. all he would have had to do was get up and quietly excuse himself. "sorry, something came up and i have to go be presidential." but he did NOTHING. his reaction was ten times mellower than the reactions of everyone else in the entire country. it's, frankly, weird. it's like he locked up. i think he freaked because suddenly he had to be president and he had no idea what to do. he looked like a helpless man-child.

I always have, and always will place primary blame on the local officials.  I look at places like Mobile, which was damaged just as badly as NO was. 

yeah, cuz they white over there, right? not to take anything away from mobile but they didn't have a LEVEE BREAK. that's why ner orleans was so much worse off. and the reason things aren't progressing there is because they have some twisted neocon plan to turn it into a privatized jazz theme park. the locals got their hands full trying to fight the feds OFF.

To me, I see a city and state that is horribly corrupt. 

not sure i can argue with you there. NO has been notorious historically for being corrupt. (they made a movie about it in the 80s, in fact.) but that said...


Or do you all want an autocratic Federal Government?

we have that now, at least if you measure autocracy by the number of unlawful detainees held, the number of times torture is practiced or justified, or the number of times autonomous countries are invaded without provocation on phony pretext. if we're gonna have an autocratic government, it might as well do us some good.

yeah, cuz they white over there, right? not to take anything away from mobile but they didn't have a LEVEE BREAK. that's why ner orleans was so much worse off. and the reason things aren't progressing there is because they have some twisted neocon plan to turn it into a privatized jazz theme park. the locals got their hands full trying to fight the feds OFF.


Oh please, do not even try to bring race into this!  If you think Mobile is some kind of mayonaise-on-white-bread city, you obviously have never been there.

And NO was many miles inland.  Add to that, it was on the West side of the storm.  Mobile and Buloxi were both right on the water, and both were on the East side of the storm.  Both of those cities were much worse hit then NO was.  I remember seeing shots of one of the Casino barges pushed almost a mile inland.  And one of the Casonis had not even opened yet, and both the hotel and casino were a total loss.

NO actually suffered very little damage because of the Hurricane itself.  Most of the damage came from the flooding.

The difference can all be attributed to local awareness.  Alabama is hit regularly by hurricanes.  Mobile has been hit several times in the last few decades.  So has Mississippi.  Louisiana and NO have been spared for over 25 years.  They had gotten lazy, and did nothing to get ready before it hit.

Here in SE Alabama, we are constantly ready.  I keep a "Hurricane Kit" in my car at all times.  When I first get word of a storm that might be heading my way, I fill my car up with gas and make sure everything is ready.  I know where my shelters are, and my escape routes.  And when I am sure one is going to touch down in my area, I go someplace safe.  And I am 100 miles inland!

The state of Alabama is similarly ready.  Once a storm hits Florida, the National Guard is mobalized.  The GOvernor does this on his own, in order to help rescue efforts in Alabama, or in Florida or wherever else it is needed.  The units all mobilize in the Armories, and wait out the storm there (unless they have family, where permission is then normally granted to stay at home).  Once the worst of the storm is over (and sometimes before that), they then leave the Armories and go wherever they are needed.  This is what "Preparedness" means. being ready before something happens.

When Katrina first passed through Florida, the initial landing point was predicted to be Panama City Florida.  That is 100 miles due south of me.  The expected path was identical to that of Ivan, which tore us up a few years ago.  Instead, it turned West.  That should have triggered similar preparations in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Texas.

Texas mobalized their emergency services and National Guard.  They are used to getting hit.  Mississippi mobilized also.  Louisiana and New Orleans were the exception here.  They mobilized a few Emergency Services managers, told people to collect in a few areas, and did nothing to ensure their feeding, shelter, water, or security.  They even ignored their own evacuation plans, telling people to stay at home.  Their plan stated that in the event of a Category 2 hurricane, that city busses would be used to evacuate the city.  And here comes a Category 5, and the busses were not sent out.

They also refused to publicize the free Amtrak trains, which the Federal Government provided.  They all left almost empty.

At 5 PM on Aug 27, Governor Barbour ordered a mandatory evacuation of 2 gulf coast counties of Mississippi.  Everybody was ordered to leave.  Buloxi was almost totally depopulated.

At 5 PM on Aug 27, Mayor Nagin issued a voluntary evacuation, and encouraged those in low lying areas to go to shelters.

This is why Mississippi and Alabama were ready, and were devistated, with little loss of life.  Louisiana was not ready, and had horrible loss of life.

Race does not have a damned thing to do with this.  Obviously Mayor Nagin was never a boyscout.

Oh please, do not even try to bring race into this!  If you think Mobile is some kind of mayonaise-on-white-bread city, you obviously have never been there.

race is so obviously a factor in the federal non-response to new orleans, it's not even funny. if you're trying to portray alabama as some racially integrated racially enlightened state, man, that's worth a chuckle. alabama was arguably the most regressive, racist state of the old south -- and as such is perceived as white by neocons like the people in power. NO on the other hand is perceived as black and immoral. i definitely believe these old racist paradigms are alive and well in the american right, and the response to katrina indicates this. remember the fundies like pat robertson were out in force after the storm saying NO deserved what happened to it because it was basically the new sodom and replete with junkies and welfare mothers. (this is right-wing code, by and large, for "poor blacks.") now the fundies and the administration aren't the same thing, but the fundies DO pay for the administration's campaigns in large part and mobilize the right-wing voters who put em in office. so when they say something there's good reason to read their statements as the sort of thing the neocons would LIKE to say if they didn't have to put a pretty face on it. and this is particularly true in katrina's case, where the neocons basically acted exactly the way you'd have expected the racist fundies to act if they'd been in power.

And NO was many miles inland.  Add to that, it was on the West side of the storm.  Mobile and Buloxi were both right on the water, and both were on the East side of the storm.  Both of those cities were much worse hit then NO was.  I remember seeing shots of one of the Casino barges pushed almost a mile inland.  And one of the Casonis had not even opened yet, and both the hotel and casino were a total loss.

NO actually suffered very little damage because of the Hurricane itself.  Most of the damage came from the flooding.

exactly, and so all this comparison about mobile reacting to the hurricane better because they're smarter and whiter is doubly prespammersite. it was the FLOODING, not the hurricane, that destroyed new orleans outright. so all this stuff about hurricane kits and so on is irrelevant. (although if what you're saying is that new orleans is to blame because they couldn't get the whole city evacuated -- um, the population of mobile isn't even 200,00? the population of new orleans is almost 1.3 million. so evacuating new orleans is a VASTLY more complex exercise.)

the point is, after the hurricane struck and the levees broke, the administration sat on its hands for DAYS and did nothing. the locals could not have been expected to do anything by this point, they were DOWN and OUT. so either the administration didn't care or they were incompetent. i won't speculate as to which. but as you aptly pointed out in your other thread, their reaction to 9/11 was quite similar.

exactly, and so all this comparison about mobile reacting to the hurricane better because they're smarter and whiter is doubly prespammersite. it was the FLOODING, not the hurricane, that destroyed new orleans outright. so all this stuff about hurricane kits and so on is irrelevant. (although if what you're saying is that new orleans is to blame because they couldn't get the whole city evacuated -- um, the population of mobile isn't even 200,00? the population of new orleans is almost 1.3 million. so evacuating new orleans is a VASTLY more complex exercise.)


That is exactly my point!

NO should have started a mandatory evacuation before August 27th.  The evacuation should have been ordered as soon as there was a greater then 25% chance they would be hit by even a corner of the storm.  NO is nothing but a big bathtub, and common sense says that when feet of rain come down, it will flood.  Where was that evacuation order?

Simple answer, it never came.

Where were the busses, which were mandatory when a Cat. 3 storm was expected to hit?  They were sitting in their lots.

This happened because they had become complacent.  It had been over 25 years since the last major Hurricane hit them, so they got lazy.  The same thing happened in California after decades of no earthquakes.  People become complacent, it is just that simple.  They simply assume "It will not happen here".  To me, the problem lies in the local officials failing to enact their own Hurricane Preparedness Rules, and failing to emphacize to people how great the danger is.  This is why people like Berry Cowsill were killed.  They assumed that their local officials knew what they were doing.  How wrong they were.

I live in "Hurricane Alley".  We expect to get hit several times a year.  Because of this, I am always ready.  I do not wait for somebody else to tell me what to do.  When common sense tells me to leave, I leave.  The church I went to at the time started to take in "Katrina Refugees" on August 26th.  That's right, even before it struck ground.  And they were of all races, we did not care.  A lot of those from the Gulf Coast still live here, because their homes are gone.

To me, I fail to understand why people get hit like this over and over again.  Property Damage is understandable, but loss os life is not.  A Hurricane is so slow moving, that it normally gives plenty of warning, and you can move out of the way.  And if you remember a lot of the interviews, people were just thinking they could sit at home and "ride it out".  This is because the Local Officials did not make it clear that people had to leave.  By the time they did, it was to late.

I am probably over prepared.  This comes from having gone through hurricanes in North Carolina, and Earthquakes in California, in addition to my military background.

At all times, I have a "Disaster Kit" in my car.  Sleeping Bag, Tent, Food, Water, Spare Clothes, Poncho, First Aid Kit, Knife, Radio, Batteries, Candles, Matches, Lighters, and it all sits in a Large ALICE military pack.  This pack sits in my car at all times.  During Hurricane Season, I add even more food and water.

I believe that most Civilians simply lack the "Survival Gene".  They rely so much on the Government, that they are nothing more then cattle.  Once the disaster strikes, they then are standing around, mouths gaping like fish on land.  And they have idea what happenes, what to do, or where to turn to for help.  They wait for "Mommie" (the Government) to step in and make things better.

Race has not a damned thing to do with this.  I remember when Hugo hit North Carolina in 1987.  My Company Commander (a black Captain) ordered all Marines in his Company who lived off-base to have Hurricane Kits.  He even inspected them.  He even went as far as to "turn his back" as we each took a case of MREs, so our families could have food in case we got hit.  This man had the "Survival Gene", and he helped teach me how to use mine.

That is exactly my point!

NO should have started a mandatory evacuation before August 27th.  The evacuation should have been ordered as soon as there was a greater then 25% chance they would be hit by even a corner of the storm.  NO is nothing but a big bathtub, and common sense says that when feet of rain come down, it will flood.  Where was that evacuation order?

Simple answer, it never came.

Where were the busses, which were mandatory when a Cat. 3 storm was expected to hit?  They were sitting in their lots.

This happened because they had become complacent.  It had been over 25 years since the last major Hurricane hit them, so they got lazy.  The same thing happened in California after decades of no earthquakes.  People become complacent, it is just that simple.  They simply assume "It will not happen here".  To me, the problem lies in the local officials failing to enact their own Hurricane Preparedness Rules, and failing to emphacize to people how great the danger is.  This is why people like Berry Cowsill were killed.  They assumed that their local officials knew what they were doing.  How wrong they were.

I live in "Hurricane Alley".  We expect to get hit several times a year.  Because of this, I am always ready.  I do not wait for somebody else to tell me what to do.  When common sense tells me to leave, I leave.  The church I went to at the time started to take in "Katrina Refugees" on August 26th.  That's right, even before it struck ground.  And they were of all races, we did not care.  A lot of those from the Gulf Coast still live here, because their homes are gone.

To me, I fail to understand why people get hit like this over and over again.  Property Damage is understandable, but loss os life is not.  A Hurricane is so slow moving, that it normally gives plenty of warning, and you can move out of the way.  And if you remember a lot of the interviews, people were just thinking they could sit at home and "ride it out".  This is because the Local Officials did not make it clear that people had to leave.  By the time they did, it was to late.

I am probably over prepared.  This comes from having gone through hurricanes in North Carolina, and Earthquakes in California, in addition to my military background.

At all times, I have a "Disaster Kit" in my car.  Sleeping Bag, Tent, Food, Water, Spare Clothes, Poncho, First Aid Kit, Knife, Radio, Batteries, Candles, Matches, Lighters, and it all sits in a Large ALICE military pack.  This pack sits in my car at all times.  During Hurricane Season, I add even more food and water.

I believe that most Civilians simply lack the "Survival Gene".  They rely so much on the Government, that they are nothing more then cattle.  Once the disaster strikes, they then are standing around, mouths gaping like fish on land.  And they have idea what happenes, what to do, or where to turn to for help.  They wait for "Mommie" (the Government) to step in and make things better.

Race has not a damned thing to do with this.  I remember when Hugo hit North Carolina in 1987.  My Company Commander (a black Captain) ordered all Marines in his Company who lived off-base to have Hurricane Kits.  He even inspected them.  He even went as far as to "turn his back" as we each took a case of MREs, so our families could have food in case we got hit.  This man had the "Survival Gene", and he helped teach me how to use mine.


take note everybody: because the right wing is basically saying, next time something bad happens -- terrorist attack, natural disaster, flu epidemic -- YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. they'll run on being strong on national defense and security but when the siht hits the fan it's gonna change into "you were supposed to have a first aid kit" so fast your head will swim.

you fell for it twice already. republicans will take your tax money, but they won't use it to help you with. no way.

take note everybody: because the right wing is basically saying, next time something bad happens -- terrorist attack, natural disaster, flu epidemic -- YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. they'll run on being strong on national defense and security but when the siht hits the fan it's gonna change into "you were supposed to have a first aid kit" so fast your head will swim.


That is not what I am saying at all.  Basically, I am asking everybody "Do you want to be sheep?"

Tia, have you ever been through a Hurricane?  Earthquake?  Tornado?  Fire?  Flood?  Typhoon?

I have, all of the above.  And I am still here.

You see, I am a survivor.  I am constantly prepared, and am constantly making sure that I am prepared for anything I can think of.  I keep an extensive "Disaster Kit" ready at all times.  It rests in the trunk of my car.  In fact, since it is almost Hurricane Season again, I just drug it out of my car to get it ready again.  You will find a picture of it at the bottom of the page.  But it includes:

Large ALICE Pack, to carry it all in
Sleeping Bag, with a rating of 20F
Insulate Mat, to keep the ground from leeching the heat from my body
2 man tent
2 Canteens, 1 quart and 2 quart
Canteen Cup, which can be used as a small pot
3+ days of food
Folding shovel
Change of clothes, including gloves
Eating utinsels
Survival knife
Axe
Battery powered flashlight/lantern/radio
spare batteries
Rain gear
Poncho Liner, a kind of quilted blanket
First aid kit, including dressings, tourniquet, butterfly closures, asprin, motrin, sanitary napkins (they make great field dressings for major wounds), iodine, rubbing alcohol, and other things
Books, so I have something to read

This is in the trunk of my car at all times, unless I am camping.  I then remove the unneeded things, and strap it on the back of my motorcycle.  Every 3 months I replace the food in it with fresh food.

In my car is another pack.  This contains jumper cables, flares, camera, blankets, more spare clothes, 3 gallon gas can, 1 gallon antifreeze, spare batteries, 4 gallons water, and another 5 days of food.  Oh, and more books.

These stay in my car at all times.  At any time, I can run out of my house with no warning, and survive for at least a week.  If I have to abandon my car, I have another 3 days worth of supplies.  And if I am not at home, I still have everything I need to survive.

Most people do not plan things like this.  They simply let the disaster surprise them, then whine because they are not being taken care of.  This is the difference between survivors and sheep.  I can survive anything, and will do so without the GOvernment telling me what to do.

In reality, you have to be ready to survive on your own for 46-96 hours after a disaster.  That is because it takes that long for things to stabilize, and for help to get to the area.  This is a simple fact, and no amount of grandstanding can change that.

I lived less then 2 miles from the epicenter of the 1994 Northridge Earthquake.  My house was "red tagged" (condemned).  Once the worst of the shaking stopped, my fiancee and I got ready.  We took all the perishable goods, canned goods, batteries, water, clothes, and anything else we needed and put it in the back of my truck.  We then waited for daylight, and drove to her grandmothers house.

We ended up living there for almost a month.  Her power was off for 2 days, our power was off for almost 3 weeks.  Her water was safe to drink the next day, our water was unsafe for almost a month.  And instead of waiting for FEMA, we found our own place and moved into an apartment less then 2 months later.  We never stayed in a tent city.

And LA in 1994 was nowhere near as devistated as NO was.  We had 2 major freeway bridges down, and that was about it as far as roads.  But it still took 2 days for the Local and State services to get fully on-line, and about 4-5 days for the Federal Government to get in help.  And remember, there was no warning.  A far cry from NO, which had several days warning.

And I do not remember anybody whining that Bill Clinton was not getting aid in fast enough.  Yet, it took longer getting there then it did in NO.

And don't forget, nobody would have been able to get into NO for almost a full day.  It is simply impossible to send in the amount of help needed during a hurricane.  You have to wait for it to blow by, then aid can start to come in.

I am not heartless.  I am simply a realist.  I have waited in FEMA lines.  I have been a responder to disasters, and have been in them.  I keep so well prepared so that I can take care of myself, and those I care about.  I refuse to entrust my own health and well being to the Government, or anybody else.  Ultimately, I and nobody else am responsible for myself.  Help is walecome in the event of a disaster, but it is not dependsd on until days later.  This way, I can take care of myself, and the first responders can concentrate on people who are much worst off then I am.

And in fact, the largest supplier of disaster aid and services was the US Military.  So keeping a strong national defense is also good for internal relief.  Coast Guard, Marine, and Navy helicopters were going in to rescue people even when it was considered to unsafe to fly.  And the same equipment that is kept in storage for the event of war is the exact same equipment that is pulled out for disaster relief.  They simply do not unpack the weapons.

So once again, are you going to be a survivor, or are you going to be sheep?

That is not what I am saying at all.  Basically, I am asking everybody "Do you want to be sheep?"

Tia, have you ever been through a Hurricane?  Earthquake?  Tornado?  Fire?  Flood?  Typhoon?

I have, all of the above.  And I am still here.

You see, I am a survivor.  I am constantly prepared, and am constantly making sure that I am prepared for anything I can think of.  I keep an extensive "Disaster Kit" ready at all times.  It rests in the trunk of my car.  In fact, since it is almost Hurricane Season again, I just drug it out of my car to get it ready again.  You will find a picture of it at the bottom of the page.  But it includes:

Large ALICE Pack, to carry it all in
Sleeping Bag, with a rating of 20F
Insulate Mat, to keep the ground from leeching the heat from my body
2 man tent
2 Canteens, 1 quart and 2 quart
Canteen Cup, which can be used as a small pot
3+ days of food
Folding shovel
Change of clothes, including gloves
Eating utinsels
Survival knife
Axe
Battery powered flashlight/lantern/radio
spare batteries
Rain gear
Poncho Liner, a kind of quilted blanket
First aid kit, including dressings, tourniquet, butterfly closures, asprin, motrin, sanitary napkins (they make great field dressings for major wounds), iodine, rubbing alcohol, and other things
Books, so I have something to read

This is in the trunk of my car at all times, unless I am camping.  I then remove the unneeded things, and strap it on the back of my motorcycle.  Every 3 months I replace the food in it with fresh food.

In my car is another pack.  This contains jumper cables, flares, camera, blankets, more spare clothes, 3 gallon gas can, 1 gallon antifreeze, spare batteries, 4 gallons water, and another 5 days of food.  Oh, and more books.

These stay in my car at all times.  At any time, I can run out of my house with no warning, and survive for at least a week.  If I have to abandon my car, I have another 3 days worth of supplies.  And if I am not at home, I still have everything I need to survive.

Most people do not plan things like this.  They simply let the disaster surprise them, then whine because they are not being taken care of.  This is the difference between survivors and sheep.  I can survive anything, and will do so without the GOvernment telling me what to do.

In reality, you have to be ready to survive on your own for 46-96 hours after a disaster.  That is because it takes that long for things to stabilize, and for help to get to the area.  This is a simple fact, and no amount of grandstanding can change that.

I lived less then 2 miles from the epicenter of the 1994 Northridge Earthquake.  My house was "red tagged" (condemned).  Once the worst of the shaking stopped, my fiancee and I got ready.  We took all the perishable goods, canned goods, batteries, water, clothes, and anything else we needed and put it in the back of my truck.  We then waited for daylight, and drove to her grandmothers house.

We ended up living there for almost a month.  Her power was off for 2 days, our power was off for almost 3 weeks.  Her water was safe to drink the next day, our water was unsafe for almost a month.  And instead of waiting for FEMA, we found our own place and moved into an apartment less then 2 months later.  We never stayed in a tent city.

And LA in 1994 was nowhere near as devistated as NO was.  We had 2 major freeway bridges down, and that was about it as far as roads.  But it still took 2 days for the Local and State services to get fully on-line, and about 4-5 days for the Federal Government to get in help.  And remember, there was no warning.  A far cry from NO, which had several days warning.

And I do not remember anybody whining that Bill Clinton was not getting aid in fast enough.  Yet, it took longer getting there then it did in NO.

And don't forget, nobody would have been able to get into NO for almost a full day.  It is simply impossible to send in the amount of help needed during a hurricane.  You have to wait for it to blow by, then aid can start to come in.

I am not heartless.  I am simply a realist.  I have waited in FEMA lines.  I have been a responder to disasters, and have been in them.  I keep so well prepared so that I can take care of myself, and those I care about.  I refuse to entrust my own health and well being to the Government, or anybody else.  Ultimately, I and nobody else am responsible for myself.  Help is walecome in the event of a disaster, but it is not dependsd on until days later.  This way, I can take care of myself, and the first responders can concentrate on people who are much worst off then I am.

And in fact, the largest supplier of disaster aid and services was the US Military.  So keeping a strong national defense is also good for internal relief.  Coast Guard, Marine, and Navy helicopters were going in to rescue people even when it was considered to unsafe to fly.  And the same equipment that is kept in storage for the event of war is the exact same equipment that is pulled out for disaster relief.  They simply do not unpack the weapons.

So once again, are you going to be a survivor, or are you going to be sheep?




this all continues to be a complete dodge of the question -- which is, does the federal government carry a responsibility to help the people during a catastrophe? i say yes, it's their number one responsibility during a catastrophe. if they respond to a catastrophe by going on vacation or sending ice trucks to north carolina, they have no business taking our tax money.

you keep saying, well, i have a first aid kit. well, frankly, i don't care. that's completely irrelevant and beside the point.

what you're describing is a pre-civilized society, where everyone holes up in their own littlle cave and has their own shotgun and sandbags and canned goods. that's a very primitive model and there's a reason we moved away from it -- because life in such a pre-civilized society is very brutal and short. we give tax money to the government and in return there's a contract that if a disaster comes along that's beyond an individual person's ability to cope with it, we have an organization where we have marshalled our collective resources. that way the people who can't spend all year collecting emergency kits for every eventuality don't just get left for dead the way they were during katrina. i mean, what you describe -- hey, i got mine, and the people who don't got theirs are cattle or lack the "survivor gene" and so therefore it's okay if they die -- is not compatible with civilization. it's not "big government" or any such other. it's, do you want to live in an actual society -- or in a brutal, pre-classical free for all where it's everyone for themselves? because that's what we saw on 9/11, that's what we saw in katrina, and the next time there's another catastrophe, it's what we'll see again. because that's all the conservatives offer.

if it all boils down to having a first-aid kit, why did bush even form a "department of homeland security"? why even have a "federal emergency management agency"? i mean granted they don't work worth a damn, but why even form them, if their philosophy is the same as yours? plainly THEY even recognize that there is a contract that the government is supposed to protect the people, even if you, with your rather radical anarcho-conservative views, do not.

I am amazed that some people just seem to be unable to understand basic concepts.  I guess some people are unable to function on their own without "Big Government" taking care of them.

OK, so what should the President (any President) do in the first 24 hours after a disaster?  Now think carefully, because at that time, the hurricane was still rageing through the area.  Should he have had Emergency Services flood into the area?  What would that have done, other then get even more people killed.

Obviously you have no idea what is involved in moving 100 people, let alone 300 or 3,000.  I do not care about simply getting people on-scene quickly.  I care about getting effective people on-scene, who are able to do their jobs.  And that takes time.

And you keep dodging the question about why Alabama and Mississippi seem so much better off then Louisiana, even though they were hit much worse.  You go on about racism and other things, but you keep missing the point that the Mayor and Governor screwed up big time.

I even gave you the times that Mississippi ordered a mandatory evacuation, and New Orleans gave a weak requested evacuation.  But I guess things like facts do not matter, you only want to find somebody to blame.  I admit that things were screwed up.  But remember, we were talking about a disaster that covered over 5 states.  You seem to want to concentrate on one city.

And obviously you have never had to go through any kind of disaster like that.  Count yourself lucky.

I am amazed that some people just seem to be unable to understand basic concepts.  I guess some people are unable to function on their own without "Big Government" taking care of them.

OK, so what should the President (any President) do in the first 24 hours after a disaster?  Now think carefully, because at that time, the hurricane was still rageing through the area.  Should he have had Emergency Services flood into the area?  What would that have done, other then get even more people killed.

Obviously you have no idea what is involved in moving 100 people, let alone 300 or 3,000.  I do not care about simply getting people on-scene quickly.  I care about getting effective people on-scene, who are able to do their jobs.  And that takes time.

And you keep dodging the question about why Alabama and Mississippi seem so much better off then Louisiana, even though they were hit much worse.  You go on about racism and other things, but you keep missing the point that the Mayor and Governor screwed up big time.

I even gave you the times that Mississippi ordered a mandatory evacuation, and New Orleans gave a weak requested evacuation.  But I guess things like facts do not matter, you only want to find somebody to blame.  I admit that things were screwed up.  But remember, we were talking about a disaster that covered over 5 states.  You seem to want to concentrate on one city.

And obviously you have never had to go through any kind of disaster like that.  Count yourself lucky.


actually, no, i was in a horrible flood in texas in the 70s. i don't play that "i was there so therefore i have more authority than you" game that you play though.

okay, real quick, because you started off pretty weak and your arguments are getting progressively worse:

1. why focus only on the first 24 hours? the bush adminisrtation was completely useless for approximately a week. as i said repeatedly, once the locals were flooded, they were dead in the water. the feds had plenty of time after the levees broke to get effective people there. they did not. they were completely ineffective. you need to either address this or concede the point.

2. i repeatedly addressed why alabama fared better. a. new orleans is a city of 1.3 million. mobile is a city of 200,000. b. new orleans suffered multiple levee breaches, mobile did not. c. i frankly have a hunch that the bush administration favored alabama over new orleans, because neocons are covert racists. they also tend not to care a lot about places run by democrats, something we saw during the california energy crisis. but you don't really need to have 3., 1. and 2. are enough to account for the difference between mobile and new orleans. in no way do you need your whole argument about how the wretched new orleaneans lack the "survival gene" and the wonderful alabamans have it. (although it's amazing to me you don't see the racist subtext of this argument you're making.)

3. your evacuation thing is flat-out wrong.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/

"The National Hurricane Center reports that conditions are already deteriorating along the central and northeastern coast. (Watch video to see the worst case scenario)

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared a state of emergency Sunday and ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city. (Watch video of mayor's announcement)"

so nuff said about that, really. remember, after landfall there was a period that everyone thought NO got off lightly. so your argument that nagin was supposed to have been psychic and know that he needed to pull out all the stops is a case of requiring 20-20 hindsight.

the bottom line is this. after the levees broke and the local authorities were already crippled by a devastating hurricane, it became the federal government's responsibility to come to the aid of its people. it did not, and it had days to do so.

PERIOD.

either refute this, or admit it. don't bring up the "i have a first-aid kit" thing again, because that argument is plain silly.