There are many people that say 9/11 changed everything while others believed that the 2000's wasn't that too much different from the 90's.  Do you guys think that 9/11 affected of not just pop-culture, but society in general?

My personal opinion, things certainly have tamed down.  Before 9/11, shows had a stagedy of making everything dark, edgy, and extreme.  Since 9/11, the only TV show that still does this is Family Guy, but they are a big enough show to get away with it.

Well, on September 10, 2001, that summer was called "The Summer of the Shark," owing to a spate of shark attacks around the North American coasts.  The Summer of the Shark was no more on September 11!
:o

It.....

!)  Made people more paranoid.

2) Made Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity house hold names.

3) Gun ownership out of fear, amongst people went up.

4) Gave Karl Rove and Dick Cheney the incentive to go bat **** crazy.

Yes. Though not every single aspect of the changes were directly related, though it took some time for some things to change, and though some things are now are only slightly different than before, 9/11 changed everything.

Yes. Though not every single aspect of the changes were directly related, though it took some time for some things to change, and though some things are now are only slightly different than before, 9/11 changed everything.


In deed, it.

Yes. Though not every single aspect of the changes were directly related, though it took some time for some things to change, and though some things are now are only slightly different than before, 9/11 changed everything.


Would you say it changed the way people thought about politics?  People seemed much more cynical soon after the War on Afghanistan was over and nobody took Bush seriously.

Would you say it changed the way people thought about politics?  People seemed much more cynical soon after the War on Afghanistan was over and nobody took Bush seriously.


People took Bush VERY seriously after the initial phase of the War in Afghanistan was over.  The Republicans gained a lot of credibility for being "strong on defense" and did very well in the midterm elections of 2002.  Not to mention getting the whole country into the Iraq War.  Bush continued to have approval ratings of over 60% until well into 2003.  If anything, 9/11 made people less cynical about politics, as they were more willing to follow along with what their government was saying.  The prolonged Iraq War and Hurricane Katrina did more to make people cynical than 9/11 did, though 9/11 was the only reason that the Iraq War was able to be sold in the first place.

No.

Would you say it changed the way people thought about politics?  People seemed much more cynical soon after the War on Afghanistan was over and nobody took Bush seriously.


Like I said, 9/11 had a lot of indirect influences. True, it was probably the Iraq War more than anything that made people feel more cynical about their leaders, though the Iraq invasion can be traced back to 9/11 (well, as facts and common sense as proven, it actually doesn't, but nonetheless it was a claim).

And like sonikuu said, people forget that for the few months after 9/11 Bush was EXTREMELY popular, hovering around the 90% approval rating. True, pretty much any president just had to say "God Bless America, we're gonna kill those bastards" and the whole country would rally around him, but it wasn't until around 2003 that the Bush we all know now began to take shape.

I also remember that the time (roughly a year and a half) after 9/11 was very tense in America, with the fear of more terrorist attacks occuring. Obviously, this gave people a more negative approach to things. I was only 10-12 at this time so I can't perfectly say how everything was, but I don't think that there was necessarily greater trust placed on our leaders; they just had more responsibility.

Like I said, 9/11 had a lot of indirect influences. True, it was probably the Iraq War more than anything that made people feel more cynical about their leaders, though the Iraq invasion can be traced back to 9/11 (well, as facts and common sense as proven, it actually doesn't, but nonetheless it was a claim).

And like sonikuu said, people forget that for the few months after 9/11 Bush was EXTREMELY popular, hovering around the 90% approval rating. True, pretty much any president just had to say "God Bless America, we're gonna kill those bastards" and the whole country would rally around him, but it wasn't until around 2003 that the Bush we all know now began to take shape.

I also remember that the time (roughly a year and a half) after 9/11 was very tense in America, with the fear of more terrorist attacks occuring. Obviously, this gave people a more negative approach to things. I was only 10-12 at this time so I can't perfectly say how everything was, but I don't think that there was necessarily greater trust placed on our leaders; they just had more responsibility.


What bothered me was that initially the death toll in the 9/11 attacks were around 6,000, then was greatly reduced to 2,500.  You were right that people didn't trust their leaders a year after 9/11, and I think it was due to the facts came out that we(Americans) supported the Taliban during the 80's to combat terrorism.  I read a book around 2002 which explained that the US had a project of drilling an oil line through Afghanistan.  Once the government decided to take on Iraq, the whole "No Blood For Oil" started.  Plus the Patriot Act and Homeland Security started in 2002.

What bothered me was that initially the death toll in the 9/11 attacks were around 6,000, then was greatly reduced to 2,500.  You were right that people didn't trust their leaders a year after 9/11, and I think it was due to the facts came out that we(Americans) supported the Taliban during the 80's to combat terrorism.  I read a book around 2002 which explained that the US had a project of drilling an oil line through Afghanistan.  Once the government decided to take on Iraq, the whole "No Blood For Oil" started.  Plus the Patriot Act and Homeland Security started in 2002.


These things I don't remember: how did the general public react to the Patriot Act and the creation of the Homeland Security Department? I know that in the years since the Patriot Act has been attacked as an abuse of civil liberties, but what was the response from the terrorist-weary country in 2002?

I believe that on September 12, 2002, George W. Bush first announced that an Iraq invasion may be required (scary how it was exactly one year and a day later). I think that over the following months the protests grew and by early 2003 he had lost a significant amount of popularity.

And as for that oil line, I have heard people say that the only reason why we're still in Afghanistan is because of that pipe. Though the War in Afghanistan has become quite unpopular over the past year or so due to the high death toll, I remember it being generally supported throughout the Bush years, regardless of Iraq.

These things I don't remember: how did the general public react to the Patriot Act and the creation of the Homeland Security Department? I know that in the years since the Patriot Act has been attacked as an abuse of civil liberties, but what was the response from the terrorist-weary country in 2002?

I believe that on September 12, 2002, George W. Bush first announced that an Iraq invasion may be required (scary how it was exactly one year and a day later). I think that over the following months the protests grew and by early 2003 he had lost a significant amount of popularity.

And as for that oil line, I have heard people say that the only reason why we're still in Afghanistan is because of that pipe. Though the War in Afghanistan has become quite unpopular over the past year or so due to the high death toll, I remember it being generally supported throughout the Bush years, regardless of Iraq.


People accepted everything initially. Opposing Bush or the Government at all was almost seemingly taboo in the few months after 9/11. People saw weak security as the cause of 9/11 so the attitude was pretty much that we needed to increase security as much as possible. Bush lost that extreme confidence when the first recession really hit in 2002 and as he pushed for War in Iraq but he remained popular. Most Americans supported the initial Iraq invasion however though it was widely opposed outside of this country. If you want to name a particular moment that really ended the American people's love affair with W, I'd say after Mission Accomplished. As the months passed and people realized that the mission was certainly not accomplished and those WMD were nowhere to be found trust in Bush really nosedived. Of course Bush still had enough support to be reelected in a close election in 2004 but 9/11 fear was still lingering and Kerry was a weak candidate.

No.


Ladies and Gentlemen, an accomplished writer

People accepted everything initially. Opposing Bush or the Government at all was almost seemingly taboo in the few months after 9/11. People saw weak security as the cause of 9/11 so the attitude was pretty much that we needed to increase security as much as possible. Bush lost that extreme confidence when the first recession really hit in 2002 and as he pushed for War in Iraq but he remained popular. Most Americans supported the initial Iraq invasion however though it was widely opposed outside of this country. If you want to name a particular moment that really ended the American people's love affair with W, I'd say after Mission Accomplished. As the months passed and people realized that the mission was certainly not accomplished and those WMD were nowhere to be found trust in Bush really nosedived. Of course Bush still had enough support to be reelected in a close election in 2004 but 9/11 fear was still lingering and Kerry was a weak candidate.


That makes sense. There was certainly a lot of anger before the actual invasion (some time in February the largest anti-war protest EVER was held), though most conservatives at the time probably supported the invasion, a 50/50 in America, at least in those days.

No.


Funny, lol.

I feel the same way though, maybe it's because I don't live in the USA. What did change was the people's attitude towards their own way of life. Before 9/11, the US in general seemed pretty complacent that nothing would penetrate the West and so when those planes hit The Twin Towers people had to question their own invincibility from terrorism (whether that event was allowed to happen by the US government or not).

Maybe I am looking too much into this here but there does appear to be one incredible allusion to the novel 1984 by George Orwell (not afraid to say this book influenced me) and that is the use of war. In Oceania where the book is set, the government had to invent a permanent war in order to keep the proles (the normal working class citizens) onside. I do wonder whether that was George Bush's intentions for this kind of event. Make an enemy out of an old 'friend' and keep him undetectable.

Ladies and Gentlemen, an accomplished writer


Most memorable posting!

;D

People accepted everything initially. Opposing Bush or the Government at all was almost seemingly taboo in the few months after 9/11. People saw weak security as the cause of 9/11 so the attitude was pretty much that we needed to increase security as much as possible. Bush lost that extreme confidence when the first recession really hit in 2002 and as he pushed for War in Iraq but he remained popular. Most Americans supported the initial Iraq invasion however though it was widely opposed outside of this country. If you want to name a particular moment that really ended the American people's love affair with W, I'd say after Mission Accomplished. As the months passed and people realized that the mission was certainly not accomplished and those WMD were nowhere to be found trust in Bush really nosedived. Of course Bush still had enough support to be reelected in a close election in 2004 but 9/11 fear was still lingering and Kerry was a weak candidate.


Yeah, everyone said Kerry flip-flop'ed his own words and Americans couldn't trust either candidate.  When I voted, I chose Ralph Nader, even though his votes didn't mean anything.  I guess having another president during the Iraqi War isn't a good move anyways imo.

We certainly took down Iraq in a week, huh?  Considering that Saddam had WMD all over the place, plus supposed Nukes!

You are absolutely right about the outside world hating America.  I was reading BBC news at the time and a lot of anti-American articles was written during the Iraq War.  One most famous article was the one where America didn't take the Geneva Convention seriously.  I think the Internet played a large part  in the hate.  More American's had access to foreign news sites and people just didn't buy to the CNN'S, FOX'S, MSNBC'S, etc...

Yeah, everyone said Kerry flip-flop'ed his own words and Americans couldn't trust either candidate.  When I voted, I chose Ralph Nader, even though his votes didn't mean anything.  I guess having another president during the Iraqi War isn't a good move anyways imo.




http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
^^Was The 2004 Election Stolen?- By Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Read that. Besides what it says, keep in mind that before being POTUS, Bush Sr. was Director of the CIA. If ANYBODY IN THE WORLD could get something done, it is the CIA.

In regards to other countries despising America for Iraq, consider if it had been a country like England or Germany that had been attacked on 9/11, and they decided that they were going to invade Iraq and they wanted our help. Would we assist them, or take a similar approach as Europe did to us?

I think 9/11 definitely changed everything. September 11, 2001 is definitely THE defining event for the early 21st century and set the tone for the troublesome start to a new millennium. It wasn't supposed to be this way and that's what makes it hit hard. The new millennium was supposed to a prosperous leap forward at least that was the attitude back in 99. Even now in the year 2010 the overreaching effects of 9/11 are still felt. These aren't the worst of times but 9/11 knocked us back a lot and we weren't expecting it.

I think 9/11 definitely changed everything. September 11, 2001 is definitely THE defining event for the early 21st century and set the tone for the troublesome start to a new millennium. It wasn't supposed to be this way and that's what makes it hit hard. The new millennium was supposed to a prosperous leap forward at least that was the attitude back in 99. Even now in the year 2010 the overreaching effects of 9/11 are still felt. These aren't the worst of times but 9/11 knocked us back a lot and we weren't expecting it.


Totally agree with you Brian. I hate to be negative but 9/11 has impacted us (and not just North Americans) in almost every aspect of life. We are in a state of paranoia due to terrorism, fraudulent activity, ID theft...and this is all related to that fatal day. Let's face it, we really don't trust each other as much as we did 20 years ago and maybe that's why we do much of our communication behind keyboards. Back in 1990: I did not have to take my shoes off at the airport and I could bring soda on the plane without a care, going over the US/Canadian border was a hop and a skip, I did not have to set up long and complicated passwords, I did not have to have my bag searched by security when I visited museums...I try not to think about 9/11 but I will never forget the fear I lived through that week and it has scarred me.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
^^Was The 2004 Election Stolen?- By Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Read that. Besides what it says, keep in mind that before being POTUS, Bush Sr. was Director of the CIA. If ANYBODY IN THE WORLD could get something done, it is the CIA.

In regards to other countries despising America for Iraq, consider if it had been a country like England or Germany that had been attacked on 9/11, and they decided that they were going to invade Iraq and they wanted our help. Would we assist them, or take a similar approach as Europe did to us?


I scanned through the entire article a couple of times, and I honestly not surprised they did this.  The 2000 electons results were determined in Florida, and the governer at the time was Jeb Bush(makes this Floridian sad :( ).  I really am not sure how Kerry would handle the Iraqi situation.

Brian is right.  In the 90's I thought the 2000's would be a tech paradise(though I am basing this off Terminator movies and The Jetsons).  Yeah we have cell phones, but where is the flying cars?  ;D

Did 9/11 change everything? Does anybody think the celeb/paparazzi stuff got big in 2003 got big because of anything to do with 9/11? I mean there was a little of what the celeb/paparazzi would be like from 2003-2006 with the whole Puffy/J. Lo relationship in 1999-2000 and then the whole Puffy thing at a nightclub with the gun incident. I don;t think the whole celeb/paparazzi thing was that huge from 2000-2002 though as it was from 2003-2006 with Paris Hilton, Hillary Duff, Nicole Richie, Lindsay Lohan or even Mischa Barton. I still liked Hillary Duff though maybe she was the Alicia Silverstone or Candice Cameron of the 00's for teens anyway.

Did 9/11 change everything? Does anybody think the celeb/paparazzi stuff got big in 2003 got big because of anything to do with 9/11? I mean there was a little of what the celeb/paparazzi would be like from 2003-2006 with the whole Puffy/J. Lo relationship in 1999-2000 and then the whole Puffy thing at a nightclub with the gun incident. I don;t think the whole celeb/paparazzi thing was that huge from 2000-2002 though as it was from 2003-2006 with Paris Hilton, Hillary Duff, Nicole Richie, Lindsay Lohan or even Mischa Barton. I still liked Hillary Duff though maybe she was the Alicia Silverstone or Candice Cameron of the 00's for teens anyway.


I dunno.  Between 2003-2006, it seemed everyone had a sex tape incident.  I think most of those celebrities got huge because of reality tv.  Really, who really would know Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashin outside their reality tv(or in Kim's case, her naughty tape)?

I liked Hillary Duff too, I thought she was cute. 

Now if 9/11 was a cause of paparazzi....I really don't know.  Have you check out Mel Gibson's movie about it?  Really interesting and good imo.

I dunno.  Between 2003-2006, it seemed everyone had a sex tape incident.  I think most of those celebrities got huge because of reality tv.  Really, who really would know Paris Hilton or Kim Kardashin outside their reality tv(or in Kim's case, her naughty tape)?

I liked Hillary Duff too, I thought she was cute. 

Now if 9/11 was a cause of paparazzi....I really don't know.  Have you check out Mel Gibson's movie about it?  Really interesting and good imo.
Kim Kardashian-I remember her father Robert Kardashian was an attorney for a little while there or was to be in the infamous OJ Simpson 1994 case. Your right though Kim herself became huge because of the s** tape though. Paris Hilton-her parents own the Hilton Hotels I think.

And it certainly made us wonder, did 9/11 change everything?

After the initial shock of the incursion, my first reaction was, "Sh*t, now I gotta flavor for what 3/5 of humanity lives with everyday."

There was not a single person I knew outside the USA who had anything but compassion:
"Yes, I heard.  Poor country.  Poor people."
My friend Artemiy emailed from Moscow.

Then we became dicks about it.  This happened on 9/13, but didn't begin to register until the following week.  Forget all about the blood and terror the USA has visited upon the entire Third World since the end of WWII, it happened to US!  It happened to the Americans, God's chosen people. 
"I hear they have this problem in Jerusalem too, right, Frank?
"Indeed they do, Gladys."

And that's about as far as our foreign policy analysis went in the popular media.

Then the United States government decreed that because of 9/11 the United States allows itself unlimited aggression to be visited up any country that produces or harbors terrorists, or suspected of doing so."

Well, then I guess you've just declared yourselves emperors of the world. 

That was the idea.  The Project for A New American Century" was a desperate attempt to recapture our world power after we handed it over to the international capitalists in the name of international capitalism.

They want us to think 9/11 changed everything.  You think I'm paranoid?  Just ask them.
8)

"Minutes to midnight.  The truth gets harder to define."
--Midnight Oil

I am going to agree with MaxwellSmart here that if it was any other nation that had this attack, I doubt that nation would go hell and fury to get rid of the world of "terrorism."  Then again, America can do that since it is the most powerful nation in the world, though China is looking to take over. 

Makes me wonder, if China was attacked by terrorist, how would the US react to it?  More importantly, would China do the same thing the US did when the US was attacked?

Around 2003 I think, there was a plane crash in Milan, Italy, and people were paranoid that it was terrorist who did it.  They weren't responsible, but that kind of thinking kind of influenced a lot of developed nations.

It still made me laugh when the US wanted to punish France for something stupid during the Iraqi War.

Did 9/11 change everything? In an almost indescribable way. I lived outside Orlando at the time, and everyone I knew worked at Disney or Universal Studios. A friend spent the summer in California, and flew home the evening of Sept 10, 2001. A big group of us went to the airport to pick her up. We parked the car, wandered around the airport for awhile laughing and joking, and then went to the gate to meet her flight. No security screening, no need to meet her at baggage claim, no hassles or headaches.

That night we had a big homecoming party at my parents' house. We were up late drinking and having fun, and a bunch of us fell asleep on the living room floor. My dad woke us up to tell us the second plane had just hit. Within the next hour or so, rumors were running rampant. We heard that the theme parks were a primary target (really scary since some of the group lived 15 minutes from Universal, which has enough pyrotechnics stored to blow up half of Central Florida). Nobody had anywhere to go, since for the first time in history, the theme parks shut down in the middle of the day. We just spent the day gathered around my parents' TV trying to make sense of our lives.

The next day the theme parks reopened, but overnight they had added bag checks at the entrances (something Disney in particular had sworn they would never do, as it represented a distrust of their guests and set a bad tone for the day). It was at that point I realized that things had changed forever.

Now we take off our shoes and throw away our coffee and present our travel-sized liquids at the airport (and increasingly, submit to full body scans that let some random stranger view our naked bodies). Now when we fly alone, we make the long trek through security and out to the gate alone, and there's no greeting at the arrival gate by friends or family. Now we have to have our bags searched every time we want to enter a theme park or a museum.

I was a goth/punk during the 1990s (still am to some extent, though I've toned down the look a bit). I remember visiting Washington, DC with my parents in 1992 or 1993, wearing my shiny new Army surplus steel-toed combat boots. I set off every metal detector in the city, and the guards just laughed and asked if I was wearing steel toes. Can you imagine doing that now? I'd probably be strip searched!

We accept so many intrusions in our lives now, in the name of "security." Makes me think that the terrorists actually won.  >:(

it changed my view of the world.... i only knew the world of peace and nothing extreme back then... what do you expect i was 7....

i have no idea what terrorists are before then....

but it doesn't effect my life... i was halfway around where it happen :p

I think it changed things for the worse. As several people have already mentioned, it did change the way we get searched entering an airplane, building, etc. It also changed the fact that many of our rights granted to us under the Constitution-like the Fourth Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. were taken away from us under the so-called "Patriot Act." We now have warrentless wiretappings, as well as the Feds can get what books you checked out of the library. It also made people paranoid against Muslims. I also think it has divided us when it should have united us thanks to the "United not the Divider". "Either you are with us, or you are a terrorist."  ::)



Cat

Not so much here...but if we're actually talking worldwide - the global financial crisis changed everything..but that's another thread  :(

I saw the responce to this as goody goody and also think this has made it worse.

We now have warrentless wiretappings, as well as the Feds can get what books you checked out of the library. It also made people paranoid against Muslims. I also think it has divided us when it should have united us thanks to the "United not the Divider". "Either you are with us, or you are a terrorist."  ::)


Sometimes life imitates art.  Other times, art...

http://test.sdinet.de/formfleisch/im-still-free-what-about-you.jpg

I'm still free... what about you?

...imitates life:

"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people, and the West in general, into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
 - Osama bin Laden, ca. October 2001

I remember hearing that while the damn crater was still smoldering, but the closest I can find to a primary reference is this CNN transcript from 2002.  

Water under the bridge now.  I don't mind losing to a Chuck like him, but I do still feel bitterness that he couldn't have won without our collectively letting him win.  It's not like he didn't tell us exactly what he expected us to do.  And yet we did it anyways.

In regards to other countries despising America for Iraq, consider if it had been a country like England or Germany that had been attacked on 9/11, and they decided that they were going to invade Iraq and they wanted our help. Would we assist them, or take a similar approach as Europe did to us?


I think why I am not quite as sympathetic to the USA and I hope you folks can forgive me here (I think unsympathetic is a little too callous but the only way I know how to describe how I feel) is because I ask the question; "you only just worked out what terrorism is now?" Yes, I know 9/11 was absolutely horrific and it changed how the US viewed itself as a nation but the USA are not the only country to experience terrorism and only seemed to take notice when it happened to them. The scale of the attack was massive but seems to reflect the scale of the country's size and power. London and Spain experienced terrorist attacks shortly afterwards.

The English have had problems with the IRA (Irish Republican Army) since the 1880s (though there was that infamous 'Bloody Sunday' incident in 1972 involving the British army killing 14 Irishmen that didn't help matters). These terrorists blew things up in Ireland and England on a semi-regular basis at one point and even though we have produced a peace treaty since the late 1990s, a splinter version called The Real IRA since then have proved they are capable of making mischief.

I think why I am not quite as sympathetic to the USA and I hope you folks can forgive me here (I think unsympathetic is a little too callous but the only way I know how to describe how I feel) is because I ask the question; "you only just worked out what terrorism is now?" Yes, I know 9/11 was absolutely horrific and it changed how the US viewed itself as a nation but the USA are not the only country to experience terrorism and only seemed to take notice when it happened to them. The scale of the attack was massive but seems to reflect the scale of the country's size and power. London and Spain experienced terrorist attacks shortly afterwards.

The English have had problems with the IRA (Irish Republican Army) since the 1880s (though there was that infamous 'Bloody Sunday' incident in 1972 involving the British army killing 14 Irishmen that didn't help matters). These terrorists blew things up in Ireland and England on a semi-regular basis at one point and even though we have produced a peace treaty since the late 1990s, a splinter version called The Real IRA since then have proved they are capable of making mischief.



You are so right. When I was stationed in Greece in the late '80s, I knew this guy who came up to me with a mess of rock, metal, & glass in his hand. He asked me if I knew what it was. I didn't. Then he told me that it was what was left of his car roof rack.

What really p!sses me off about 9/11 was how the Bush Administration used it to erode the Constitution.



Cat

I'm deathly afraid of airplanes now and I literally break out in a sweat when a plane flies low over my house. They sometimes do, and lord, I flip.

I want to go to Austrailia--one of my goals in life--but if I have to fly, it won't happen.

Marlon Jackson couldn't get me on a plane.

I'm deathly afraid of airplanes now and I literally break out in a sweat when a plane flies low over my house. They sometimes do, and lord, I flip.

I want to go to Austrailia--one of my goals in life--but if I have to fly, it won't happen.

Marlon Jackson couldn't get me on a plane.


It's a small but significant possibility you will be in an aircraft crash,  this chance rises signficantly if you fly once a month versus every 10 years, but it's still less of a risk than driving down the Interstate.

What didn't bother me about the idea of the plane going down in a fiery wreck?  I figured the experience would be relatively brief and not at all my fault...so I didn't feel guilty about it!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/walk.gif

The question around my house was not "bad things happen," but "whose fault is it."  The former is the branch of thinking that has to do with social justice.  It also provides immobilizing neuroses.  The other question has to do with how we are going to live with it!
9/11 prompted new loyalty among some people.  It produced a range of emotions ranging from suspicion to hatred for a smaller part of our population, and it's important to keep these things in check, you see.  However -- It produces the dangerous crazy mofos on any side of an issue!


"We've come to take our country back!"

http://harpervalley.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/alfredeneuman.jpg

I guess I'll never be riding a plane then.  :)

What's left of the Jacksons better play someplace near me.  ::)

The problem isn't the airplanes, it's the Muslims!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/12/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN9Ro5kHf_M