Hillary isn't a great role model for women who want to be president.  Her claims of experience mostly stem from being wife to a former president.  I know she was active politically in college, but she plays on Bill's success as if it were hers.  Nancy Pelosi might be a better example, if it weren't for the really poor manner in which she's run Congress for the last 18 months.



I think you downplay Hillarys resume.  She was a graduate of Wellesley, a successful lawyer, many attribute Bills making the White House to her, and she is Senator of New York.  I would say the Bills success was hers. Love her or hate her she is a formidable person in her own right.

I sometimes use guys even if I mean women!


Me too

Personally, I find most forms of 'ist' (apart from manichurist and artist of course, lol) to be extreme attitudes and maybe we are too ready to place other people in categories/neat little boxes rather than accept them as they are.

I do know there is an ambiguous dual mentality with women, a lot wanting feminism yet a regression back to older standards when it suits them and, in a way, I don't blame them. If I was in their position I would probably try to wing it so I could have my cake and eat it too. I think this is one of the reasons why men these days (especially myself) get confused with issues like dating and what women expect from us as men.

Like the First World War dictates, if a woman truly wants equal rights then she should be prepared to work in an ammunition factory.

The way I see it, if a woman wants to put on a phoney voice, act like a prostitute and reject her own standards and ideals,  just ignore her when she cries 'sexist!' - all the other women will, lol.

Well, I don't think anybody really gives a hoot about anything anymore. At least not the general public. Has anybody else noticed how some feminists were into womens' rights, but still expected to be treated better as a lady, such as having a door held open, etc.? Maybe you all have and I just didn't know since I haven't really read this thread.

As for grown women being called girls, I've always just sort of considered a girl any female... Kids are just... little girls, I guess.

It's sad that nobody gives a damn, but that's what our culture's become.

i think a big part of it is that much of feminism seems to have conspired with its political opponents to make itself unpalatable. a lot of the radical college-campus stuff that went on in the 90s when i was in college really put me off institutional feminism at the same time that i still feel invested in seeing a more fair and equitable society. they'd do things like post lists of all men on campus with the title "Potential Rapists" and just would generally be quite obnoxious and militant. and the thing is, most of these were well-to-do middle class women from the suburbs, and they're running around like they're members of the symbionese liberation army!
Most of the date rape occurred because women refused to stop hanging around with the campus azzwholes.  Sorry, but it's true.  The big aggressive guys get the girls because both sexes are still playing on 300,000 year-old genetic instincts.  They say they want sensitive men who aren't afraid to cry...but they really want the captain of the basketball team or tattooed bad boy on parole.  Then they're surprised at the results. Every man is a potential rapist, they used to say.  I dunno, when the girl said to stop, I always stopped.  Me and Holden Caulfield. 

You and I were in college at about the same time.  Before I realized what a HORRENDOUS little sh*t he was, I thought Dinesh D'Souza's "Illiberal Education" made some salient points.  I lived through a lot of them.  I took Women's Studies 'coz it got a gen ed requirement out of the way and I thought it would an easy A.  It was an easy A.  However, "Basic Instinct" and "Thelma and Louise" were required viewing.  I also said the wrong thing and got told by the instructor (a husky-voiced lesbian who smoked l'il cigars) that I had NO RIGHT...NO RIGHT...to say anything about the homosexual lifestyle because I didn't "identify as queer."  Just because I had a crew cut didn't make me Doug Neidermeyer!

i think there's definitely an undeserved backlash against the idea of feminism and gender equality, but i also think the specifics of how the political movement of feminism rarified in the 80s and 90s made it a very difficult movement to support. the politically active self-described "feminists" i knew often presumed a position of moral superiority, were largely humorless, did in fact view men rather than patriarchy as the enemy -- despite the language they used -- and responded to criticism with half-baked moral outrage rather than reasoned counterargument or earnest consideration. there were, of course, exceptions to this in the feminist movement, and they tended to be just as frustrated as i was.
Some of them were humorously large!
Sorry. 

I remember when the campus newspaper ran an insert froma pro-life group once...just once...a group called POWER* popped up on the Student Union steps and all these young women were screaming hysterically that "the Collegian hates women!"  I took to the podium and asked whether the group of protesters weren't exercising intolerance themselves!  A dude in the crowd  pointed at me and yelled, "You just say that because you're a man!" 
"That makes one of us," I replied, "and you're cynically hoping to get some nookie out of this riot!" 
Then I split.

Not angry at women?  Campus militant feminists can change that! 

I had some growing up to do myself.  I wouldn't do that nowadays.

*An acronym.  The W was for Women.  I forgot the rest.


ironically, a lot of the "do-me" feminism that came out of the poison pill aspects of second-wave feminism is responsible for the stuff you guys are talking about, this cheapened sexual self-image of a lot of women coming of age these days. that said, being a fan of 60s and 70s stuff the way i am i WILL say that the subtle oppression of women in the mass media of the time is really staggering. go to youtube and watch a commercial for "Tab" cola (search on "be a mind-sticker"  ;D ) or check out any ad for a commercial airline in the 60s or 70s to see the way they portray the stewardesses. feminism has done a lot of good, warts and all, in terms of making that sort of malarky socially unacceptable.

The media totally objectifies women and I wish fewer women would buy into it.  It does pay off in some ways.  Like I said about Elliot Spitzer's consort, she might make a million dollars but men will never respect her.  To me, feminism is about the advancement of women in society, not petty collegiate sexual politics, which is what it got reduce to on campus. 

Well, I don't think anybody really gives a hoot about anything anymore. At least not the general public. Has anybody else noticed how some feminists were into womens' rights, but still expected to be treated better as a lady, such as having a door held open, etc.? Maybe you all have and I just didn't know since I haven't really read this thread.

As for grown women being called girls, I've always just sort of considered a girl any female... Kids are just... little girls, I guess.

It's sad that nobody gives a damn, but that's what our culture's become.



I think you are right that people don't care about anything these days.

As for expecting to be treated like a lady-I expect to be treated with respect. If I going through a door and there are people (male and/or female) behind me, I will hold the door for them and I hope they would do the same for me, especially if my hands are full. To me, that is just common courtesy. And going out to eat, there are many times when I will pay. I love seeing the waitperson's face when I grab the check instead of Carlos.  :D ;D ;D




Cat

Personally, I find most forms of 'ist' (apart from manichurist and artist of course, lol) to be extreme attitudes and maybe we are too ready to place other people in categories/neat little boxes rather than accept them as they are.

I do know there is an ambiguous dual mentality with women, a lot wanting feminism yet a regression back to older standards when it suits them and, in a way, I don't blame them. If I was in their position I would probably try to wing it so I could have my cake and eat it too. I think this is one of the reasons why men these days (especially myself) get confused with issues like dating and what women expect from us as men.

Like the First World War dictates, if a woman truly wants equal rights then she should be prepared to work in an ammunition factory.

The way I see it, if a woman wants to put on a phoney voice, act like a prostitute and reject her own standards and ideals,  just ignore her when she cries 'sexist!' - all the other women will, lol.


Feminism is about equal rights...is about not letting anyone tell you no because of your gender. So IF a woman wants to work in a gun factory she can and that's it,there are millions of women who do what some consider "man jobs" and they do it as well as men.
People forget we despite our genders are all so different...there's no mold for women like there's not one for men.
I'm so tired of men and women complaining about eachother like every guy is a jerk and every woman is a bitch. That's not true and if all the experiences we have with the opposite sex makes you think like that then maybe the problem is in yourself.

I think you are right that people don't care about anything these days.

As for expecting to be treated like a lady-I expect to be treated with respect. If I going through a door and there are people (male and/or female) behind me, I will hold the door for them and I hope they would do the same for me, especially if my hands are full. To me, that is just common courtesy. And going out to eat, there are many times when I will pay. I love seeing the waitperson's face when I grab the check instead of Carlos.  :D ;D ;D




Cat


A lot of it comes down to respect.  If I see an elderly person on the bus or the train I offer him or her my seat.  It can create awkward moments.  The custom used to be expected, now it's just about forgotten. 

I remember reading in my Girlfriend's Cosmo about what the new feminists do.  This must have been 20 years ago: "Today a woman always offers to split the check, but is furious if the man accepts."  Cosmo is not sociological observation; it is how-to instructions.  Hair Do's and Don'ts.  What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  Heady stuff!
:P

A lot of it comes down to respect.  If I see an elderly person on the bus or the train I offer him or her my seat.  It can create awkward moments.  The custom used to be expected, now it's just about forgotten. 

I remember reading in my Girlfriend's Cosmo about what the new feminists do.  This must have been 20 years ago: "Today a woman always offers to split the check, but is furious if the man accepts."  Cosmo is not sociological observation; it is how-to instructions.   Hair Do's and Don'ts.  What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  Heady stuff!
:P


You had a girlfriend who reads Cosmo? Oh Max :( was she at least pretty?

What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  i find the most interesting people at a party are typically under the back porch.

I hope McCain doesn't win, because if he does, it will "prove" in some people's minds that a woman can't be President.

I hope McCain doesn't win, because if he does, it will "prove" in some people's minds that a woman can't be President.


I think a woman can be President, but this particular woman is not the ideal :P

Feminism is about equal rights...is about not letting anyone tell you no because of your gender. So IF a woman wants to work in a gun factory she can and that's it,there are millions of women who do what some consider "man jobs" and they do it as well as men.

My point was actually made to encourage women to do the same work as men and not rest on their gender as a means of resisting equal responsibility for themselves.

People forget we despite our genders are all so different...there's no mold for women like there's not one for men.

Which is exactly what I said in my post.

I'm so tired of men and women complaining about eachother like every guy is a jerk and every woman is a bitch. That's not true and if all the experiences we have with the opposite sex makes you think like that then maybe the problem is in yourself.

Is this last statement directed at me?  ???

I do my very best to treat people as people but I did have a stumbling block which I have dealt with. For a long time, as a result of growing up with my mother, it took a lot of convincing to turn around my belief that all women are emotionally irrational. Yes, I suppose the problem was in myself . . .

. . . However, what I wrote above is not based on beliefs I held because I have got past them. What I wrote was based on first-hand observation and experience.

Is this last statement directed at me?  ???


Nah, I think she's just talking in general. If you've ever had the misfortune to watch some of the reality shows on now, you'd see it. The ideal for these shows is bitchy women and douchebag men, and this gives the idea that we're all like that. :P

My point was actually made to encourage women to do the same work as men and not rest on their gender as a means of resisting equal responsibility for themselves.

Which is exactly what I said in my post.

Is this last statement directed at me?  ???

I do my very best to treat people as people but I did have a stumbling block which I have dealt with. For a long time, as a result of growing up with my mother, it took a lot of convincing to turn around my belief that all women are emotionally irrational. Yes, I suppose the problem was in myself . . .

. . . However, what I wrote above is not based on beliefs I held because I have got past them. What I wrote was based on first-hand observation and experience.


No Bobby i wasn't directing it at you,i quoted your post because its content made me think of that women against men mentality. And when you talked about the "ammunition factory" it seemed to me you were saying that if a woman wants to be treated the same way she needs to act like a man,i'm sorry if got that wrong.

What i was trying to say is that when it comes to dating/love relationships we all have the tendency to blame not making it work on silly gender differences,my girlfriends are always saying "men are pigs" because some guy treated them wrong and my guy friends say "women don't know what they want" because a girl broke their heart...the thing is when we think of eachother that way we're biased by feelings that have nothing to do with what reality is. Yes everyone is either man or woman (by birth or not) but before and after that we're just people,some are great and some are awful and some the majority a mix of both.

No Bobby i wasn't directing it at you,i quoted your post because its content made me think of that women against men mentality. And when you talked about the "ammunition factory" it seemed to me you were saying that if a woman wants to be treated the same way she needs to act like a man,i'm sorry if got that wrong.

No you were right, I just misinterpreted your post, lol.

Not neccessarily to 'act like blokes' but 'not be scared to do bloke's jobs'. I don't want a girlfriend who looks and acts like a bloke - I am perfectly happy doing that myself, ha ha.

You will probably notice I don't treat women with kid gloves. That's not because I am a sexist but . . . well . . . for good or worse I treat them like blokes. Someone has to keep them in line once in a while. ;)

What i was trying to say is that when it comes to dating/love relationships we all have the tendency to blame not making it work on silly gender differences,my girlfriends are always saying "men are pigs" because some guy treated them wrong and my guy friends say "women don't know what they want" because a girl broke their heart...the thing is when we think of eachother that way we're biased by feelings that have nothing to do with what reality is. Yes everyone is either man or woman (by birth or not) but before and after that we're just people,some are great and some are awful and some the majority a mix of both.


That's right. Men and women give these reasons because it's an easy way out. Instead of positively internalising the blame (as in 'what REALLY did go wrong and how can I prevent it in the future?') they externalise them and blame the gender as you mentioned. I think a lot of men and women do this to vent because they find being alone so painful.

One thing I have realised that's stops people moving on from past relationships (probably moving towards a different topic now) is their inability to actually simplify their own situation. For example, someone can come up to me and say 'Why did s/he leave me? Is it because I said/did/thought this? Could my hair be different? Could I lose more weight? Could I get a better job . . . ?' The simple reason is 'because s/he isn't interested'. That's it. If we go back to a point in time where a man/woman has showed interest in us and we haven't felt the same way or we were in a relationship and our feelings changed for the other person then this is exactly the same thing but in reverse and once we accept that it's easier to move on.

No you were right, I just misinterpreted your post, lol.

Not neccessarily to 'act like blokes' but 'not be scared to do bloke's jobs'. I don't want a girlfriend who looks and acts like a bloke - I am perfectly happy doing that myself, ha ha.

You will probably notice I don't treat women with kid gloves. That's not because I am a sexist but . . . well . . . for good or worse I treat them like blokes. Someone has to keep them in line once in a while. ;)

That's right. Men and women give these reasons because it's an easy way out. Instead of positively internalising the blame (as in 'what REALLY did go wrong and how can I prevent it in the future?') they externalise them and blame the gender as you mentioned. I think a lot of men and women do this to vent because they find being alone so painful.

One thing I have realised that's stops people moving on from past relationships (probably moving towards a different topic now) is their inability to actually simplify their own situation. For example, someone can come up to me and say 'Why did s/he leave me? Is it because I said/did/thought this? Could my hair be different? Could I lose more weight? Could I get a better job . . . ?' The simple reason is 'because s/he isn't interested'. That's it. If we go back to a point in time where a man/woman has showed interest in us and we haven't felt the same way or we were in a relationship and our feelings changed for the other person then this is exactly the same thing but in reverse and once we accept that it's easier to move on.


Ah now with that last part i got reminded of that weirdo with the "He's not that into you!"  ;D

I know what you mean i always thought that when sex pursue is not in the way we all pretty much treat women and men the same way.

Ah now with that last part i got reminded of that weirdo with the "He's not that into you!"  ;D

I don't know him, lol.

I know what you mean i always thought that when sex pursue is not in the way we all pretty much treat women and men the same way.


Yeah . . . though you will be surprised how men treat women based on how they look, we poor sods are given good visual skills but poor judgement of character.  ;)

You had a girlfriend who reads Cosmo? Oh Max :( was she at least pretty?

And smart too!  But she liked to play the ditz which is what drove me crazy and away from her!  It wasn't like I could afford to be fussy either.  One time just before I split, she wanted me to take the Cosmo compatability quiz with her.  I was absorbed in Sozhenitsyn or Kafka or something cheerless.  I growled, "I'm REALLY NOT interested!!!"
"You're such a self-centered asswhole," says she.

Was there a need for a compatability quiz?
:D

And smart too!  But she liked to play the ditz which is what drove me crazy and away from her!  It wasn't like I could afford to be fussy either.  One time just before I split, she wanted me to take the Cosmo compatability quiz with her.  I was absorbed in Sozhenitsyn or Kafka or something cheerless.  I growled, "I'm REALLY NOT interested!!!"
"You're such a self-centered asswhole," says she.

Was there a need for a compatability quiz?
:D


Well, you do know that once you're done with a Kafka reading, you think you're in charge of everything.

Well, you do know that once you're done with a Kafka reading, you think you're in charge of everything.
actually, i think it's the opposite, once you're done with a kafka reading you find that shadowy forces are controlling and guiding your every feckless move toward a hopeless random fate. or something.

actually, i think it's the opposite, once you're done with a kafka reading you find that shadowy forces are controlling and guiding your every feckless move toward a hopeless random fate. or something.


You mean he didn't turn into a giant beetle on purpose?

You mean he didn't turn into a giant beetle on purpose?
you know what's a hot one? "the castle." he wrote it before he died, didn't quite finish it. it's very freaky, i get the feeling the folks who made the movie "brazil" were probably big fans of "the castle."

"the trial"'s good too. aaannnnddd... short stories, "report to the academy" and "in the penal colony." it's weird, weird stuff, it's too bad he's become a bit of a joke ("it's... kafkaesque!") cuz he really did some pretty cool stuff.

patriarchal, though. to get back on subject.

you know what's a hot one? "the castle." he wrote it before he died, didn't quite finish it. it's very freaky, i get the feeling the folks who made the movie "brazil" were probably big fans of "the castle."



I think that Brazil was written by one of the Monty Python crew.  Can't recall who  :-\\

I think that Brazil was written by one of the Monty Python crew.  Can't recall who  :-\\


t'was, i can almost remember the name. terry jones? no, gilliam. he also did "twelve monkeys" and "baron munchausen." he's so kafkaesque!

you know what's a hot one? "the castle." he wrote it before he died, didn't quite finish it. it's very freaky, i get the feeling the folks who made the movie "brazil" were probably big fans of "the castle."

"the trial"'s good too. aaannnnddd... short stories, "report to the academy" and "in the penal colony." it's weird, weird stuff, it's too bad he's become a bit of a joke ("it's... kafkaesque!") cuz he really did some pretty cool stuff.

patriarchal, though. to get back on subject.


I've read "The Trial" and "In the Penal Colony."

I have one of the short stories books.

>:-}D And screw staying on topic - I mean... um... So, feminism. I did a report on that for English. I can't wait to present it and have the class laugh at me for being a woman. :D

I've read "The Trial" and "In the Penal Colony."

I have one of the short stories books.

>:-}D And screw staying on topic - I mean... um... So, feminism. I did a report on that for English. I can't wait to present it and have the class laugh at me for being a woman. :D
ah! good man. manly men read kafka. and, um, women too.

I remember when the campus newspaper ran an insert froma pro-life group once...just once...a group called POWER* popped up on the Student Union steps and all these young women were screaming hysterically that "the Collegian hates women!"  I took to the podium and asked whether the group of protesters weren't exercising intolerance themselves!  A dude in the crowd  pointed at me and yelled, "You just say that because you're a man!" 
"That makes one of us," I replied, "and you're cynically hoping to get some nookie out of this riot!" 
Then I split.

(+1 karma to Max)

*An acronym.  The W was for Women.  I forgot the rest.

You don't happen to remember if they spelled "women" with a "y," do you?

Because the deliberate misspelling of the word as "womyn" is one of those things that annoys the living sh*t out of me.

(+1 karma to Max)

You don't happen to remember if they spelled "women" with a "y," do you?

Because the deliberate misspelling of the word as "womyn" is one of those things that annoys the living sh*t out of me.


i always had a bit of trouble taking it seriously. it seemed like even the real far out feminists were mostly embarrassed to break that one out. but i went to a state college, i'm sure at vassar there's a lot more of that sort of thing.

A lot of it comes down to respect.  If I see an elderly person on the bus or the train I offer him or her my seat.  It can create awkward moments.  The custom used to be expected, now it's just about forgotten. 

I remember reading in my Girlfriend's Cosmo about what the new feminists do.  This must have been 20 years ago: "Today a woman always offers to split the check, but is furious if the man accepts."  Cosmo is not sociological observation; it is how-to instructions.   Hair Do's and Don'ts.  What are the three best places to meet interesting people at a party?  The three B's -- the bar, the buffet, and the bathroom.  Heady stuff!
:P


As a sidenote, I've actually been reading Cosmo since the mid-late '90s. ;) Even though I don't always agree with some of the categorizations they put things in (i.e. like with what they think boyfriends/husbands or men in general will like or how they may react in a given situation. Then again I'm not the stereotypical guy, lol)...I always liked it and thought it was interesting. I guess because it's from womens' perspective and is aimed towards a female demographic, it kinda helped me understand where they're coming from on certain things.

Feminism and other causes have fizzled out because generally everyone is too self-indulgent to:
1. Care about any specific cause
2. Fight for that particular cause

As a sidenote, I've actually been reading Cosmo since the mid-late '90s. ;) Even though I don't always agree with some of the categorizations they put things in (i.e. like with what they think boyfriends/husbands or men in general will like or how they may react in a given situation. Then again I'm not the stereotypical guy, lol)...I always liked it and thought it was interesting. I guess because it's from womens' perspective and is aimed towards a female demographic, it kinda helped me understand where they're coming from on certain things.


Put the Cosmo aside,Mcfly. Unless you want to learn about makeup tricks and how to loose 10 pounds in one day that magazine will not help anyone understand anything.

Put the Cosmo aside,Mcfly. Unless you want to learn about makeup tricks and how to loose 10 pounds in one day that magazine will not help anyone understand anything.
thanks iz. i wasn't sure how to handle that one. ;D

i actually had a subscription to "bitch" magazine for a while tho.  :-[

Put the Cosmo aside,Mcfly. Unless you want to learn about makeup tricks and how to loose 10 pounds in one day that magazine will not help anyone understand anything.


I've found it best to understand women by talking to them.

... Although I just kind of do/say what I please and I haven't gotten slapped yet...

It's so freaky, but as of about 2005 I've beagn to notice a slow decline in feminist values and whatnot, especially in the way society treats girls from about 8 to 14. Think about it: I read in Time a couple months ago about a return to modesty, there's a current trend in stay-at-home mmothership, and also people's comments and jeers at Hillary Clinton. Also, most girls my age (I'm fifteen) don't care about women's rights or even their own rights. It's beginning to really freak me out. Another thng I've noticed: People frequently call adult women "girls". It's hyper-irritating to hear a forty-year-old woman calling herslef a girl. It's demeaning.


Heh...  you think women's rights are in danger here?  You ought to see what they are like in the Islamic World...   Or, in some cases, you can just talk with the more conservative Muslims in America to see what they think of women.

I'm all for gender equality, but the worst conditions for women's rights are typically in the Third World (especially many Muslim nations).

Heh...  you think women's rights are in danger here?  You ought to see what they are like in the Islamic World...  Or, in some cases, you can just talk with the more conservative Muslims in America to see what they think of women.

I'm all for gender equality, but the worst conditions for women's rights are typically in the Third World (especially many Muslim nations).


All the more reason to make sure that there isn't an erosion of rights here, and erosion of rights can happen, and it isn't just conservative Muslims who do not think well of rights of anyone but males.  I work in a male dominated profession so I have seen both sides of that mountain.

Heh...  you think women's rights are in danger here?  You ought to see what they are like in the Islamic World...   Or, in some cases, you can just talk with the more conservative Muslims in America to see what they think of women.

I'm all for gender equality, but the worst conditions for women's rights are typically in the Third World (especially many Muslim nations).


Sorry Mac but what a poor argument. Unless you are talking about the role of religion in how women are seen and if you are then conservative Muslims are certainly not alone ::)

I agree with Danoota about "erosion of rights"  in fact i believe that is already happening in other fields.
What is more troubling are the societies like America we were pioneers in the fight for equal rights for men and women and now seem to see it as a minor issue and don't realise how dangerous it can be if we allow ourselves to forget how crucial those rights are and how important it is to protect them.

Sorry Mac but what a poor argument. Unless you are talking about the role of religion in how women are seen and if you are then conservative Muslims are certainly not alone ::)

I agree with Danoota about "erosion of rights"  in fact i believe that is already happening in other fields.
What is more troubling are the societies like America we were pioneers in the fight for equal rights for men and women and now seem to see it as a minor issue and don't realise how dangerous it can be if we allow ourselves to forget how crucial those rights are and how important it is to protect them.



It's not a poor argument if you understand that everything is relative.  There's a much stronger argument in favor of supporting gay rights than there is in some perceived threat against women's rights.  Sure, some progress is still left to be made, but logically speaking, you have to understand that America and the First World in general treats women far better than the rest of the world.  Gender relations really are equal here when you consider what Saudi Arabian women have to go through, for example.

All I'm asking is that people be more realistic and sober in their logic when confronting sexism.  Some of you in this thread sound like you're willing to equate our treatment of women to forcing them to wear hijabs.  In a global sense, women have it better in the West than anywhere else in the world, and that's something we should be proud of, rather than complaining about every little thing or getting paranoid over perceived slights.

It's not a poor argument if you understand that everything is relative.  There's a much stronger argument in favor of supporting gay rights than there is in some perceived threat against women's rights.  Sure, some progress is still left to be made, but logically speaking, you have to understand that America and the First World in general treats women far better than the rest of the world.  Gender relations really are equal here when you consider what Saudi Arabian women have to go through, for example.

All I'm asking is that people be more realistic and sober in their logic when confronting sexism.  Some of you in this thread sound like you're willing to equate our treatment of women to forcing them to wear hijabs.  In a global sense, women have it better in the West than anywhere else in the world, and that's something we should be proud of, rather than complaining about every little thing or getting paranoid over perceived slights.


We are not in Saudi Arabia, or any other country, we are in the United States, so suggesting that we should be happy because we have it better as opposed to women, or any other group that has issues of equality, in any other country is just condescending crap. 

It's not a poor argument if you understand that everything is relative.  There's a much stronger argument in favor of supporting gay rights than there is in some perceived threat against women's rights.  Sure, some progress is still left to be made, but logically speaking, you have to understand that America and the First World in general treats women far better than the rest of the world.  Gender relations really are equal here when you consider what Saudi Arabian women have to go through, for example.

All I'm asking is that people be more realistic and sober in their logic when confronting sexism.  Some of you in this thread sound like you're willing to equate our treatment of women to forcing them to wear hijabs.  In a global sense, women have it better in the West than anywhere else in the world, and that's something we should be proud of, rather than complaining about every little thing or getting paranoid over perceived slights.



We are not in Saudi Arabia, or any other country, we are in the United States, so suggesting that we should be happy because we have it better as opposed to women, or any other group that has issues of equality, in any other county is just condescending crap. 


Again Dannota just nailed it. That sort of excuse makes my nerves bad "you think here is bad? look at so an so", next will come "if you don't like it here then move to so and so and you'll see how worse it is there" ::) Just because other places have it worse doesn't mean you can't complain or push for things to get better here because we are far from ideal.

It's so freaky, but as of about 2005 I've beagn to notice a slow decline in feminist values and whatnot, especially in the way society treats girls from about 8 to 14. Think about it: I read in Time a couple months ago about a return to modesty, there's a current trend in stay-at-home mmothership, and also people's comments and jeers at Hillary Clinton. Also, most girls my age (I'm fifteen) don't care about women's rights or even their own rights. It's beginning to really freak me out. Another thng I've noticed: People frequently call adult women "girls". It's hyper-irritating to hear a forty-year-old woman calling herslef a girl. It's demeaning.


  Feminism is evolving, so it is a moving target to try to judge...

  We need to give feminism and feminists more time to see what happens and how whatever happens goes down with both women and men.  We've had thousands of years to sort out "masculism."  Let's give the women a bit more than a mere half century before expecting a coherent philosophy with results to be proud of...

  And you should always hold doors open for men and women, alike... :)

   Feminism is evolving, so it is a moving target to try to judge...

   We need to give feminism and feminists more time to see what happens and how whatever happens goes down with both women and men.  We've had thousands of years to sort out "masculism."  Let's give the women a bit more than a mere half century before expecting a coherent philosophy with results to be proud of...

  And you should always hold doors open for men and women, alike... :)


Thank you for pointing that out!
Major pet peeve of mine people who don't hold the door for the person behind them and people who don't say thank you when someone holds the door for them >:(

Thank you for pointing that out!
Major pet peeve of mine people who don't hold the door for the person behind them and people who don't say thank you when someone holds the door for them >:(


I'd rather people don't hold the door open for me, usually.
Same with saying "bless you" whenever I sneeze. It's tough to find some common traditions and rituals that everybody agrees on, and sometimes it can't be done.

HOWEVER: I do think men AND women should close the toilet seat and cover after using the toilet - that way, everybody has to lift something and it can really be equal.





Now, as far as feminism goes - Yes, there are sexist people, and you really can't change that. Some people just have ideas in their heads and that's their right as a human being; but the number of sexist people is dropping dramatically, and I'm sure that within a couple of generations, there will only be a couple left... In America, at least. The rights of America aren't sexist (although the whole thing about women being paid less for work really should change, I can't believe some employers still do that!) and so the sexist people are just something we have to put up with, much like the racists and the other prejudice people.

Again Dannota just nailed it. That sort of excuse makes my nerves bad "you think here is bad? look at so an so", next will come "if you don't like it here then move to so and so and you'll see how worse it is there" ::) Just because other places have it worse doesn't mean you can't complain or push for things to get better here because we are far from ideal.


I never said you couldn't complain.  Although...  the ideal part is kind of part of the problem.  Do you really expect it EVER to be ideal?  You have to be realistic about these things.

Besides, if you really care that much about gender equality, how about evening out gender rights in custody battles?  You do realize women have a major advantage in retaining custody of their children, even when the man clearly would provide a better environment for them.

In addition to this, single mothers generally receive more financial aid than single fathers for no other reason than their gender.  We also have affirmative action, which favors women in getting hired over men despite the fact that this program claims to support equality.

I never said you couldn't complain.  Although...  the ideal part is kind of part of the problem.  Do you really expect it EVER to be ideal?  You have to be realistic about these things.

Besides, if you really care that much about gender equality, how about evening out gender rights in custody battles?  You do realize women have a major advantage in retaining custody of their children, even when the man clearly would provide a better environment for them.

In addition to this, single mothers generally receive more financial aid than single fathers for no other reason than their gender.  We also have affirmative action, which favors women in getting hired over men despite the fact that this program claims to support equality.


MMmmmmmm.  Affirmative action doesn't favor women in getting hired over men, it tries to level the playing field.  Single mothers generally receive more financial aid then single fathers because they, like women and men in the workforce, generally make less money than single fathers, Right now affirmative action is allowing caucasian males who are less qualified than women to enter college in the name of diversity.  It seems that while women have been doing much better academically, the reverse is true of males, so to even out the playing field they, males, are given points to get them in. Don't hear any complaints, or court cases, on that.

    I do care about gender equality, which is what the feminist movement, at its core is about, especially when it comes to parental rights, and I more than support fathers that have custody issues.  I have seen both sides of that mountain also, and know some women who shouldn't be within 50ft of their children retain custody, and I have seen fathers who are the same.  A lot of this has to do with historically entrenched perceptions that the feminist movement has done a lot to dispel.

    No I do not expect any situation to be ideal, but I do not see any reason not to strive towards making life closer to what is perceived as ideal.  It is what my great grands did, my grands did, and my parents did.  I am a beneficiary of their activism.  I do not believe that gives me the right to look at my child, or any child, and say "close enough".  I believe I have the responsibility to do what I can to make sure that their lives are a bit better.  History shows advances of Reconstruction can be demolished..."post-reconstruction" happens.  That may not mean much to you, to me there is always that vague nagging apprehension that keeps me close to the border.

MMmmmmmm.  Affirmative action doesn't favor women in getting hired over men, it tries to level the playing field.  Single mothers generally receive more financial aid then single fathers because they, like women and men in the workforce, generally make less money than single fathers, Right now affirmative action is allowing caucasian males who are less qualified than women to enter college in the name of diversity.  It seems that while women have been doing much better academically, the reverse is true of males, so to even out the playing field they, males, are given points to get them in. Don't hear any complaints, or court cases, on that.

What you just mentioned should demonstrate quite clearly how ridiculous affirmative action really is.  Leveling the playing field is a good thing in a financial sense, but favoring one gender or race over another is just reverse racism or sexism.  If any group needs help, it's the poor.  Affirmative action should simply aid people who are poor regardless of race or gender.  "Diversity" is mostly window dressing for the politically correct.  Employers should hire whoever is most qualified, rather than having to fill quotas based on arbitrary demographics.  By the same token, students with the best grades should be helped to enter college, regardless of the ratio of races and gender.

If you want a colorblind and genderblind system, you gotta have the same traits in laws and systems.

I do care about gender equality, which is what the feminist movement, at its core is about, especially when it comes to parental rights, and I more than support fathers that have custody issues.  I have seen both sides of that mountain also, and know some women who shouldn't be within 50ft of their children retain custody, and I have seen fathers who are the same.  A lot of this has to do with historically entrenched perceptions that the feminist movement has done a lot to dispel.

No I do not expect any situation to be ideal, but I do not see any reason not to strive towards making life closer to what is perceived as ideal.  It is what my great grands did, my grands did, and my parents did.  I am a beneficiary of their activism.  I do not believe that gives me the right to look at my child, or any child, and say "close enough".  I believe I have the responsibility to do what I can to make sure that their lives are a bit better.  History shows advances of Reconstruction can be demolished..."post-reconstruction" happens.  That may not mean much to you, to me there is always that vague nagging apprehension that keeps me close to the border.


You do realize that Reconstruction did a better job of making blacks victims and targets of hate than it did of creating racial equality.

You do realize that Reconstruction did a better job of making blacks victims and targets of hate than it did of creating racial equality.




No, it was post-Reconstruction that allowed the perpertrators of atrocities to do what they would unchecked for several generations.

I thought this was relevant to the subject.

Male Geishas

Historically, geishas used to be men anyways, but this is a new twist on it. :)

It's so freaky, but as of about 2005 I've beagn to notice a slow decline in feminist values and whatnot, especially in the way society treats girls from about 8 to 14. Think about it: I read in Time a couple months ago about a return to modesty, there's a current trend in stay-at-home mmothership, and also people's comments and jeers at Hillary Clinton. Also, most girls my age (I'm fifteen) don't care about women's rights or even their own rights. It's beginning to really freak me out. Another thng I've noticed: People frequently call adult women "girls". It's hyper-irritating to hear a forty-year-old woman calling herslef a girl. It's demeaning.


I think its wonderful that feminism is on the decline. Im all for equal rights, but you dont always have to start some revolution to get things done.
As far as being called "girls" Wait until your fourty and see if you like it when your referred to as "maam" or an "old lady". You are retarded if you think its demeaning. Just because someone wants to feel young.

Each Person, as an individual has rights, Its people like you that screw things up. Calling it "womens rights". Are there specific rights only held by women that somehow all men missed? I didnt thinks so, they are "Human Rights" the sex of a person has nothing to do with rights. And if you are dumb enough to be blinded by your fellow females. You dont even deserve the rights you currently have.

I think its wonderful that feminism is on the decline. Im all for equal rights, but you dont always have to start some revolution to get things done.
As far as being called "girls" Wait until your fourty and see if you like it when your referred to as "maam" or an "old lady". You are retarded if you think its demeaning. Just because someone wants to feel young.

Each Person, as an individual has rights, Its people like you that screw things up. Calling it "womens rights". Are there specific rights only held by women that somehow all men missed? I didnt thinks so, they are "Human Rights" the sex of a person has nothing to do with rights. And if you are dumb enough to be blinded by your fellow females. You dont even deserve the rights you currently have.


Wowee.  First of all I am 56 and I do not like being called a girl, I have been there and done that and believe I deserve a bit more respect.  Ma'am is fine, but old lady can go either way.  Yes each person has individual rights, but they are not always observed.  How many men have had to argue for the right to buy a house, have a credit card in there own name, or use birth control.  Your lack of  education is patently obvious. Who are you to decide who has rights and who doesn't?

I thought this was relevant to the subject.

Male Geishas

Historically, geishas used to be men anyways, but this is a new twist on it. :)


Women work alot these days and are moving up the ranks and running companies (probably better than men because women can actually multi-task).  They work hard and may seek male companionship as the men do for female companionship - Hello, Eliot Spitzer.

Saudi Arabia is the worst nation for womens' rights. They have none and are possessions.  Very bad!

Wowee.  First of all I am 56 and I do not like being called a girl
Oh, I thought you were "fourty."
::)

Women work alot these days and are moving up the ranks and running companies (probably better than men because women can actually multi-task).  They work hard and may seek male companionship as the men do for female companionship - Hello, Eliot Spitzer.

Saudi Arabia is the worst nation for womens' rights. They have none and are possessions.  Very bad!





;D

I have to admit that's true about me too, whatever the setting is. I'm a horrible multi tasker lol. Don't get me wrong I can do it when it's necesarry, but I generally have a one-track mind. That's one of the few ways in which I'm something of a typical guy I guess.

I do agree with you about Saudi Arabia and alot of those middle-eastern nations being totally disgusting and deplorable as far as how they treat women. Especially since the government not only allows but encourages it. Makes even the worst stuff in the US look mild by comparison. Imagine going through your whole life having no rights or abilities to express yourself and were owned by someone else who was supposed to love you.


As for the "ma'am" thing, I think it depends on the individual but I can understand why some people don't like it. I feel kinda awkward when people call me "sir". I admit it doesn't happen that often (maybe because I'm only 26 and plus people say I look youngish for my age at that), but when it does it's like "Whoa, come on I'm cooler than that!"

It depends on the context too though, like a policeman or a doctor calling me that is perfectly fine. But I don't particularly like it when it's with someone closer to my age who could potentially be a friend, especially a cute girl, lol. ;) I like just generally feeling like a young man, so that doesn't always help. Even when I hear it from little kids I don't really mind but it's still kinda weird. "Dude" "bro" or "man" all feel much better in a casual environment.

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.


Lol.  ;D

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.

Somebody you should meet: Valerie Solanas' & SCUM!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.


1968:  (Thanks to feminism), a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.
2008:  (Thanks to omnipresent pr0n), a man needs a woman like a bicycle needs a fish.

Careful what you ask for, Valerie.  You might get it.  :)

;D

I have to admit that's true about me too, whatever the setting is. I'm a horrible multi tasker lol. Don't get me wrong I can do it when it's necesarry, but I generally have a one-track mind. That's one of the few ways in which I'm something of a typical guy I guess.

I do agree with you about Saudi Arabia and alot of those middle-eastern nations being totally disgusting and deplorable as far as how they treat women. Especially since the government not only allows but encourages it. Makes even the worst stuff in the US look mild by comparison. Imagine going through your whole life having no rights or abilities to express yourself and were owned by someone else who was supposed to love you.


As for the "ma'am" thing, I think it depends on the individual but I can understand why some people don't like it. I feel kinda awkward when people call me "sir". I admit it doesn't happen that often (maybe because I'm only 26 and plus people say I look youngish for my age at that), but when it does it's like "Whoa, come on I'm cooler than that!"

It depends on the context too though, like a policeman or a doctor calling me that is perfectly fine. But I don't particularly like it when it's with someone closer to my age who could potentially be a friend, especially a cute girl, lol. ;) I like just generally feeling like a young man, so that doesn't always help. Even when I hear it from little kids I don't really mind but it's still kinda weird. "Dude" "bro" or "man" all feel much better in a casual environment.


Hell, some people call me sir.

I don't think what they call you is as important as what they mean when they call you by that name.

Women need to totally take over the world.  I hate men and do not believe that men deserve any rights whatsoever...except to sit down, shut up and do as we say upon penalty of casteration!!  Women should be able to do whatever we want whenever we want.


Fair enough.

Just do me a favor: Next time you're driving down the freeway and you have a blowout, don't stand there next to your car and start acting like you're "helpless" or something.

If you hate men so much, then change your own freakin' tire.  ;D

Fair enough.

Just do me a favor: Next time you're driving down the freeway and you have a blowout, don't stand there next to your car and start acting like you're "helpless" or something.

If you hate men so much, then change your own freakin' tire.  ;D


I think the guest who made that post was either (1) angry, or more likely (2) exaggerating and not being totally serious, maybe just to see what the reaction would be. Assuming she is being serious, I actually can agree to a point and I can see where anger and resenement of (typical) men can come from...but it's not cool to be extremist like that either.

BTW, lots of women can change a flat tire too. ;) And probably some a heck of a lot better than me!


Hell, some people call me sir.

I don't think what they call you is as important as what they mean when they call you by that name.


LMAO I actually forgot I made that post until you quoted it. ;)

Oh yeah, I started getting "sirred" when I was as young as 14 (usually just by store clerks lol), but I absolutely agree. I don't care about a word nearly as much as its meaning.

I think the guest who made that post was either (1) angry, or more likely (2) exaggerating and not being totally serious, maybe just to see what the reaction would be. Assuming she is being serious, I actually can agree to a point and I can see where anger and resenement of (typical) men can come from...but it's not cool to be extremist like that either.

BTW, lots of women can change a flat tire too. ;) And probably some a heck of a lot better than me!

Probably a troll, but if she is serious then she can go f*ck herself.

I'm all for equal rights and treating women with respect and all that, but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for being male.

It's not as if the male gender has a monopoly on assholishness, as our "guest" just proved.

Probably a troll, but if she is serious then she can go f*ck herself.

I'm all for equal rights and treating women with respect and all that, but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for being male.

It's not as if the male gender has a monopoly on assholishness, as our "guest" just proved.


No offense Al, but I'm not always proud of being a straight guy, just because of common stereotypes I don't fit into...and I disagree with you. Even if that person is a good example of going WAY too far the other way, telling someone to F off isn't cool. Then again, discriminating gender either way isn't either, so I get what you're saying in a way.

I think men are sometimes (even unintentionally or subconciously) looked at as being meaner, less approachable and more "threatening", so no I'm not always crazy about being lumped into that. Of course that's not true for everyone, but the ones who ARE a*sholes, they make the others look bad by comparison. Point blank, I've always been able to relate to girls/women, I like them alot and I value their feelings or just having shared interests and conversations. I don't look at them "because they're hot" or ask them out because I'm "trying to get laid". I can see past that, but the pigs make us all look bad, so I understand why they don't like us sometimes. ;)

Seriously, I don't mean to insult you or anything dude, I apologize but it's just a kinda sensitive issue with me.

No offense Al, but I'm not always proud of being a straight guy, just because of common stereotypes I don't fit into...and I disagree with you. Even if that person is a good example of going WAY too far the other way, telling someone to F off isn't cool. Then again, discriminating gender either way isn't either, so I get what you're saying in a way.

I think men are sometimes (even unintentionally or subconciously) looked at as being meaner, less approachable and more "threatening", so no I'm not always crazy about being lumped into that. Of course that's not true for everyone, but the ones who ARE a*sholes, they make the others look bad by comparison. Point blank, I've always been able to relate to girls/women, I like them alot and I value their feelings or just having shared interests and conversations. I don't look at them "because they're hot" or ask them out because I'm "trying to get laid". I can see past that, but the pigs make us all look bad, so I understand why they don't like us sometimes. ;)

Seriously, I don't mean to insult you or anything dude, I apologize but it's just a kinda sensitive issue with me.


No offense taken. :)

Most likely a troll anyway.

It's just that I have a big problem with double standards, that's all.

Yeah I was thinking about this topic last week and maybe its bad I call "girls"(gotta catch myself) age a 20 "girl" I mean they are not girls anymore they are women or a woman.

I also kinda agree with Marty as a male and fitting into a stereotype as a male I mean I was talking to a guy one time and I was telling him a girl-guy dating and having a relationship sex in my opinion is only 20% of a relationship he's like a woman would probably agree with you but.... I just make good friends with women. Its hard for me to date women because I get into the friend zone but it is what it is.

To go further into is Feminism fading out...

I don't think so I mean some women are in top levels of management in big companies in the US. African-American women are moving up on the job ladder. I mean they are female race car drivers like Danica Patrick in "Indy Car" and "Melanie Troxell" ,"Angelle Sampey", Ashley Force"(John Force's daughter) in NHRA drag racing. I would like to see a good female driver in NASCAR Sprint Cup Racing someday.

I have a problem with it also when a female musician is sexy people have a problem with it like people calling Nelly Furtado a slut when she did "Promiscuous" I mean she was being a little sexy: ok. Bell Biv Devoe (a male R&B group) does music with sexy lyrics but they were never called male sluts. I could understand people criticizing Britney Spears sexy image because when she came out into the music scene in 1999 but her target audience was young kids.

1968:  (Thanks to feminism), a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.
2008:  (Thanks to omnipresent pr0n), a man needs a woman like a bicycle needs a fish.

Careful what you ask for, Valerie.  You might get it.  :)

Towards the end I think she just wanted another Percocet or something!
:P

Towards the end I think she just wanted another Percocet or something!
:P


Either that or a good spanking.  ;D

Just to compare it with the '90s, it was almost like night and day. In fact, the grunge era was almost a throwback to the late '60s in terms of social consciousness, IMO. Younger women seemed sexy but classy then, and pop culture events like Lilith Fair reflected the feminist-oriented attitude. That seemed to kinda die out in 1999ish.
 

I've noticed that too, Mr. McFly, and I couldn't agree with you more!  Back then young women in entertainment seemed to have an agenda that involved encouraging other young women to display their feminism through the creative arts or political/social advocacy.  For example those artists of Lilith Fair that you mentioned performed music which actually involved skill and discipline to play more than one instrument and write their own songs which displayed their own unique personality. 

Feminism has died out because in the West, women are the more powerful and successful sex now.

Also, we realized a long time ago how much better we are than men, so the point is somewhat moot.

Also, we realized a long time ago how much better we are than men, so the point is somewhat moot.


If "how much better" you were than men could be calculated as a number, the result could likely be negative rather than positive.

Also, we realized a long time ago how much better we are than men, so the point is somewhat moot.



This has been proved in this web page alone over and over and over again.  :)



If "how much better" you were than men could be calculated as a number, the result could likely be negative rather than positive.



RUN FOREST! RUN!            ;D

This has been proved in this web page alone over and over and over again.  :)

RUN FOREST! RUN!            ;D


Were you thinking of Forrest Gump when you said that? Because I'm pretty sure there are two 'r's involved. Forest with one 'r' is the trees forest, not the silly movie with an extra 'r'.

Men and women are equal. Different, but equal.

Men and women are equal. Different, but equal.


Try telling that to the women who might just be jealous.

If feminism is fizzling out, then good freakin' riddance. 8)

Feminism has died out because in the West, women are the more powerful and successful sex now.


nah men are more dominant!  ;)

Were you thinking of Forrest Gump when you said that? Because I'm pretty sure there are two 'r's involved. Forest with one 'r' is the trees forest, not the silly movie with an extra 'r'.


No, I was thinking of you when I said that, a bit of play on your moniker.  Silly for me not to explain  ::)



Try telling that to the women who might just be jealous.



Try telling that to the men who might just be jealous

I don't think feminism is going anywhere. The battles don't change, but the tactics do!  ;)

Y'know kinda like bayonets and horses have been replaced by more sophisticated weaponry.

And, I think the time is coming soon that women find a new leader to rally around.

And, I think the time is coming soon that women find a new leader to rally around.

Oh really meesa,Then how come there's no woman president of the United States?  ::)

Oh really meesa,Then how come there's no woman president of the United States?  ::)


I said nothing about a woman president-I am talking about a new leader of the feminist movement
As for president..give it time.

Oh really meesa,Then how come there's no woman president of the United States?  ::)


It'll happen, Howard.  We got really close last time with Clinton. 

It'll happen, Howard.  We got really close last time with Clinton.


At some time the USA will come into the 20th century, then maybe catch up to the 21st.  ::)

I said nothing about a woman president-I am talking about a new leader of the feminist movement
As for president..give it time.


Sorry Meesa I was thinking of some thing else.

Like, Hi,

I attended college between 1997 and 2001, and I absolutely HATED all of the man-bashing comments that I was hearing, so much so that I was willing to argue with my fellow students. 

I once said that I felt like an anomoly because I hadn't been raped; all that I ever seemed to hear were rape and molestation stories, so I believed that tons of women made those stories up, and that maybe I should have,too, because of the ridiculous prevalance of such stories on campus.

Today, I don't even know WHAT to believe about being female in America.  I've read that today's American women are the most unhappy women in the world, despite the strides that Feminism has made. 

I feel way old (at 33), because I haven't co-habited, had a child,been married, AND been divorced (in that order), and I feel as though if I ever have kids, there will HAVE to be something wrong with them, just so that other women won't claim that I haven't suffered.  I feel as though I should have had "Daddy Issues", and I once came off the spool at my father because he HAD been a fairly good father towards me.  I've always felt as though an American woman MUST have the...worst...life...EVER in order to be relatable, with regards to their friendships with other women!

The only relatable trial that I ever suffered through was a self-created trial; I watched a ton of movies about eating disorders, I vowed to have an eating disorder someday, I mildly, but purposely starved myself during college (I got down to about 77 pounds), and I survived the ordeal, strangely proud of myself, but wiser for the wear; I felt guilty during 2000, though, because I've had medical issues during my entire life, and I was convinced that the stent had to be put in because of my deliberate self-starvation. 

Then again, I was a teen during the 1990s, but even so, I will NEVER have the nerve to cut my wrists, no matter how "cool" that dangerous "trend" has ever been.

NOTE: I am NOT trying to encourage anybody to do anything dangerous, as such actions always have bad consequences.

Anyway, I have had a few bad experiences with men, and I now wish that I could be mentally and emotionally innocent again.  I somehow feel as though women must market themselves, as though a literal dollar value must be placed on their worth.

One more strange aspect of the entire situation has to do with the first actual Barbie doll that I received.  My first Barbie friends and family doll was Tropical Skipper, but my first Barbie doll was Lilac & Lovely Barbie, and with her was a genuine Lane chest, along with an entire college wardrobe.  I never got a career Barbie.  The end result?  I went to college, but I might have never really absorbed the message that "We girls can do anything, right, Barbie?"  Some people claim that their first Barbie dolls predicted their adult lives...I went from dreaming of multiple careers to dreaming of living out the rest of my life with a very...rich...man!
8)       

Remember, all men are potential rapist. ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shIjkXpf-e4

Feminism has left a terrible legacy in my opinion, it was made by upper middle class white women for upper middle class white women. They worked on dismantling the "patriarchal" family unit, they de-valued the nurturer role women played in the family, they likened the homemaker to a slave, they attacked husbands/fathers as oppressors. This erroneous ideology might have worked for some spoiled privileged white women but when it started to trickle down to the minority communities in the '70s it created devastating social problems that continue to this day, it especially fudgeed over black men and black women. There is a epidemic of single parent, fatherless homes in the african-american community, it created this kind of gender war among black men and women, divorce rates went up for all ethnic groups during the '70s though so it had averse effects on all of society. It is known that children of single parent homes have higher rates of criminal activity and emotional problems, this trend creates a kind of cycle that perpetuates itself. I as a black man will never be aligned myself with such a bullsheesh ideology made by biased upper middle class white women that tells me I'm part of a privileged group and all males have a unearned advantages in society.

Also it can never fail to amaze me how feminists completely and utterly miss the mark on the motivations of both men and women and the dynamics both play on each other. Just as men have helped shape women's behaviors and sexuality so have women heavily influenced and molded men's behavior and motivations. Women have benefited from their perceived hypoagency just as men have benefited from their perceived hyperagency, women and men have also been disadvantaged by the same perceptions of hypoagency and hyperagency, sexism often works both ways and the assumptions feminists based their entire ideology on is extremely either/or in it's set up. Their concept of male privilege is just another tool used as political leverage and/or male shaming, most of the sexism both men and women experience is ambivalent sexism, true misogyny or misandry is pretty rare. I think it's ironic that some feminists are giving in to the SAME gender roles they claim they want to dispose of, they contribute further to female objectification.

The reason society has been less responsive to masculinist groups is not because men as a group are more socially privileged than women but because their gender role is more restrictive and more intolerant on any kind of expression of dissatisfaction on the behalf of men, just like violence is more acceptable if a male is on the receiving end instead of a female. Feminists say women are undervalued, maybe in the traditional roles men held but they are very much advantaged when it comes to all forms of safety and protection from society, just one example in the criminal justice system, male judges have shown more leniency towards females compared to men when both committed identical criminal offenses.

Also men seem to lack an automatic in-group that women seem to havehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274, men are more likely to show protective tendencies for women when in a positions of power, men in fact in more likely to show sexism towards each other(like male judges in the criminal justice system). The feminist objectification of females disallows women to have equal responsibility for the social gender role system, human females have general mate-selective preferences for the same masculine dominant traits(you know, like physical attractiveness and strength, aggressiveness, high social standing, high monetary value, ect)that feminism accuses men exploiting for their own benefit and claiming their own superiorty, this concept is actually called hypergamy. Men also have mate-selective preferences for females that display a large amount of neoteny, this feature ties females to their "feminine" characteristics. Being perceived as a hyperagent(the male role) has it's benefits when you actually do achieve a image of dominance, independence, and success but being perceived as a hypoagent(the female role) has it's benefits when you actually are hurt or in a position of needing any help, men and women achieve these characteristics to varying degrees but it is extremely narrow-minded for feminists to claim males receive a kind of unconditional "privilege" in comparison to females..

Feminism claims to be fighting for equality of opportunity but most of the agendas they've pushed politically have been trying to get the government to enforce an equality of outcomes. A lot of feminist are wrapped up in so much bs ideology that it is clouding their perspectives on the nature of the gender roles and equalities/inequalities and having a more sane, balanced view on this particular issue.

Feminism has left a terrible legacy in my opinion, it was made by upper middle class white women for upper middle class white women. They worked on dismantling the "patriarchal" family unit, they de-valued the nurturer role women played in the family, they likened the homemaker to a slave, they attacked fathers as oppressors. This erroneous ideology might have worked for some spoiled privileged white women but when it started to trickle down to the minorities in the '70s it created devastating social problems to continue to this day, it especially fudgeed over black men and black women. There is a epidemic of single parent, fatherless homes in the african-american community, it created this kind of gender war among black men and women, divorce rates went up for all ethnic groups during the '70s though so it had averse effects on all of society. I as a black man will never be aligned myself with such a bullsheesh ideology made by biased upper middle class white women that tells me I'm part of a privileged group and all males have a unearned advantages in society.

Also it can never fail to amaze me how feminists completely and utterly miss the mark on the motivations of both men and women and the dynamics both play on each other. Just as men have helped shape women's behaviors and sexuality so have women heavily influenced and molded men's behavior and motivations. Women have benefited from their perceived hypoagency just as men have benefited from their perceived hyperagency, women and men have also been disadvantaged by the same perceptions of hypoagency and hyperagency, sexism often works both ways and the assumptions feminists based their entire ideology on is extremely either/or in it's set up(I guess that does not match up to the definition you carefully cherry picked though).

The reason society has been less responsive to masculinist groups is not because men as a group are more socially privileged than women but because their gender role is more restrictive and more intolerant on any kind of expression of dissatisfaction on the behalf of men, just like violence is more acceptable if a male is on the receiving end instead of a female. You say women are undervalued, maybe in the traditional roles men held but they are very much advantaged when it comes to all forms of safety and protection from society, just one example in the criminal justice system, male judges have shown more leniency towards females compared to men when both committed identical criminal offenses, if anything men are far more negatively sexist towards each other while showing benevolent sexism towards women. Feminism has done a clever trick(I admit) by re-modifying the gender role bias most of society has to suit their ideology, they have a vested interest and leverage in portraying women as helpless, innocent victims of the evil oppressive patriarchy, the most ironic thing about feminist ideology and it's assumptions is it's portrait of women as being less responsible for the systemic gender discriminations both sexes faced is sexist itself towards women, boy they sure know how to exploit that hypoagency.

Feminism claims to be fighting for equality of opportunity but most of the agendas they've pushed politically have been trying to get the government to enforce an equality of outcomes. You say the OP is misguided but I think you(and most forms of feminism) are wrapped up in so much bs ideology that it is clouding your perspective on the nature of the gender roles and equalities/inequalities and having a more sane, balanced view on this particular issue.


I'm not sure who you were directing this towards, but I am going to have to call Bullsh!t.

Honor killings - where a husband can kill his wife or daughter, still happen every day.  Women still make 2/3 as much as men in the US.  In Africa, genital mutilation still occurs to keep women from being promiscuous.  And let me tell you right now, that the epidemic of single mother/fatherless homes has nothing to do with the feminist movement, and everything to do with selfish men who walk out on their children - no matter their race. 

And yes, I will say with all of my being that men are more socially privileged than women are.  Period.

I'm not sure who you were directing this towards, but I am going to have to call Bullsh!t.

Honor killings - where a husband can kill his wife or daughter, still happen every day.  Women still make 2/3 as much as men in the US.  In Africa, genital mutilation still occurs to keep women from being promiscuous.  And let me tell you right now, that the epidemic of single mother/fatherless homes has nothing to do with the feminist movement, and everything to do with selfish men who walk out on their children - no matter their race. 

And yes, I will say with all of my being that men are more socially privileged than women are.  Period.


It was not directed towards you but these are my thoughts on feminism, I think it is a extremely narrow minded ideology that truly misses the mark on the motivations men and women in the broader social systems. You mention honor killings and genital mutilation but you forgot boy soldiers and genital mutilation too(and this happens when they are just babies). The reasons for the gender gap are many, it seems a lot if it is due to occupational segregation(which feminist argue is because of the patriarchy) and the choices women make more than any kind of overt discrimination on the part of the evil patriarchy, but it turns out women actually do control the majority of not just the US's wealth but the world's wealth............ in disposable spending.

I don't think feminism is the only reason for the high divorce rates the '70s but it did contribute quite a bit more than they are willing to admit, it even turns out women report being less happy than they were forty years ago, women have had greater opportunities in employment and education but it has been at a cost to their emotional well being. It is known that the first and second waves of feminism were primarily concerned with white women's issues, in fact black feminism was created as a response to their apathy towards women of color. I do blame the irresponsibility of the fathers for not taking care of their children but there used to be a strict social stigma attached to the obligations of fatherhood, motherhood, and marriage that was eroded by the bigger scope of the new left during the '70s, there needs to be some kind of balance between individualism and social obligation that was not a priority among the radical progressive agendas of the late '60s and '70s.

1) Don't generalize. I don't lump all men into rapists and chauvenists, and you shouldn't lump all feminists into militant butches who want to remove everything feminine about women no matter what the cost.I don't subscribe to that method as a way to make things equal-but I will not hide my opinion about the fact that women are still struggling for equality, in that we still do not have equal pay or equal respect. Respect is earned, yes, but that is an impossible thing to earn if everyone isn't playing by the same rules-when some are saying 'yes of course' to your face and then snickering about your a$$ or your chest behind your back.

2) You can theorize all you like about how feminism brought on the destruction of the happy happy homes of yesteryear. But just how happy were those homes, really? To imply that a woman isn't happy unless she is in the kitchen rattlin' those pots and pans for her man, well, that makes me sad to think there are still people that think that is how things must be in order for the family unit to be happy.

3) To say that this is a white woman's movement is ridiculous. What you have said implies that your view is "Well, white women got bored staying at home with their tupperware and avon and decided it was time for a change so they won't be bored anymore." Really? Equality for ALL women has been and always should be the message.

4) I feel that women should be given the same opportunity to work for their future as men have. I repeat, the same opportunity. Not special treatment.  Of course, I feel that all people should have that right. Any race. Any gender. Any sexual orientation. Any religion.

5) You say that equality came at a cost to emotional well being. But everything worthwhile comes at a cost, and I hate to break it to you but being a second class citizen doesn't exactly promote emotional well being either. And that is what women, among others, had been for a long long time. They still had to work just as hard  before the woman's movement as we women work today but they had no voice; no say. Now we do, but there is a long way to go, and a lot more change to see. And change doesn't happen overnight-but change must come. I have been around many different kinds of people in my life and I can tell you what I think-the ones most resistant to change are the ones that are comfortable with the way things are just fine, thank you very much.

Shouldn't judge someone and dismiss their point of view because they aren't.

1) Don't generalize. I don't lump all men into rapists and chauvenists, and you shouldn't lump all feminists into militant butches who want to remove everything feminine about women no matter what the cost.I don't subscribe to that method as a way to make things equal-but I will not hide my opinion about the fact that women are still struggling for equality, in that we still do not have equal pay or equal respect. Respect is earned, yes, but that is an impossible thing to earn if everyone isn't playing by the same rules-when some are saying 'yes of course' to your face and then snickering about your a$$ or your chest behind your back.

There many different sub sections of feminism but what ties them all together is the patriarchy theory and the concept of male privilege, I mean I just linked to a study providing evidence that people(both men and women) are generally biased in favor of women. Have you ever heard of the Women Are Wonderful effect, it really is quite striking how it contradicts a lot of basic feminist assumptions. Women are still struggling to earn equal respect as agents but there really is a trade off, they earn preferential treatment in a lot of other areas that men do not. Just think about this from an evolutionary perspective(if you accept evolutionary theory), the double standards against females with regards to their sexuality is indeed unfair but females are a lot more limited by the amount of children they can have in their lifetime, they often risked death from child birth before modern medicine. They had to be more selective with their mate selection and there was strict social mores associated with this, men can have potentially hundreds of children in their natural lifetimes(thus more sexual freedoms) but this had the cost of them being more expendable than females, their reproductive "cost" is less valuable. Men and women developed difference physical morphologies to accommodate their different sexual roles(men being physically stronger, more aggressive, women having stronger immune systems, ect.)

Feminism also seems to heavily adopt a social constructionist view of gender, aside from the feminist essentialists(gender is nothing but a social construct created by the patriarchy) and a lot of the ideology from the second and third wave leans towards critical theory/marxism. I think it's more reasonable to adopt a dynamic nature-nurture interaction view that accommodates both the more slowly evolving biological and cultural elements of gender.


2) You can theorize all you like about how feminism brought on the destruction of the happy happy homes of yesteryear. But just how happy were those homes, really? To imply that a woman isn't happy unless she is in the kitchen rattlin' those pots and pans for her man, well, that makes me sad to think there are still people that think that is how things must be in order for the family unit to be happy.

I do not want a return of the 1950s, when I said women report being less happy, it was from this studyhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1189894/Women-happy-years-ago-.html

3) To say that this is a white woman's movement is ridiculous. What you have said implies that your view is "Well, white women got bored staying at home with their tupperware and avon and decided it was time for a change so they won't be bored anymore." Really? Equality for ALL women has been and always should be the message.

Even most of the feminist I have talked to have agreed with me on this point, they've told me that third wave feminism is intended to focus more on women of color and their issues, black feminism was partly a reaction against second wave feminism in the '70s, to add to that they heavily criticized the civil rights movement for focusing solely on black men's racism and it male leadership.

4) I feel that women should be given the same opportunity to work for their future as men have. I repeat, the same opportunity. Not special treatment.  Of course, I feel that all people should have that right. Any race. Any gender. Any sexual orientation. Any religion.

Me too, we should strive as much as possible for equality of opportunity, unfortunately a lot of the programs the government has enacted(with the aid of feminism) has been to create a equality of outcomes for women and minorities, I do not feel I should get a pass over a white person just because I am a member of a minority class(african american man in my case), I want to be judged for my competency, I don't want my "race" to factor into that.

5) You say that equality came at a cost to emotional well being. But everything worthwhile comes at a cost, and I hate to break it to you but being a second class citizen doesn't exactly promote emotional well being either. And that is what women, among others, had been for a long long time. They still had to work just as hard  before the woman's movement as we women work today but they had no voice; no say. Now we do, but there is a long way to go, and a lot more change to see. And change doesn't happen overnight-but change must come. I have been around many different kinds of people in my life and I can tell you what I think-the ones most resistant to change are the ones that are comfortable with the way things are just fine, thank you very much.

Shouldn't judge someone and dismiss their point of view because they aren't.


You'd be surprised but I still don't think women have achieved a perceived role a full agents yet, the gender roles still have a large effect on the expectations men and women have towards each other, I'm going to quote what I typed in a earlier post because it illustrates to point well:

Being perceived as a hyperagent(the male role) has it's benefits when you actually do achieve a image of dominance, independence, and success but being perceived as a hypoagent(the female role) has it's benefits when you actually are hurt or in a position of needing any help, men and women achieve these characteristics to varying degrees

It's like men are encouraged to take more risks, this is both good and bad, if they stand to win, they reap enormous benefits but if they loss it can ruin them or kill them, most men lose more than they win(to varying degrees), women are encouraged to be more risk-averse, they don't stand to win as much but they have more safety nets to catch them, there is just a lot more sympathy towards women whether feminist admit it or not, the majority of homeless are men, millions of young men die in wars, men in most situations are conditioned to tough it out, violence against them is more socially tolerated(granted it comes with their gender role).

Remember, all men are potential rapists. ::)



all men are potential therapists. ::)

Emman, I respect your opinion and you have obviously put a lot of thought into your talking points.

I disagree with your opinion, and hold to my own. I don't subscribe to evolutionist theory, so right here is where your path and mine separate and we will have to agree to disagree. I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. You  believe that we are evolving physicially and therefore everything else in our minds and spirits must follow or vice versa. I do not believe in that concept at all-I believe if we were evolving before we would still be evolving today and we are not.

I can tell you however, that before the Christians, Hebrews, or any other Male dominated spiritual leadership, there were many tribes all over the world that worshipped the Earth Mother as the source of life and power, with the God as her consort and duke of war when the need arose. What you see as a loss of family values fairly recently (in the past century), I finally see as a rise of what was there before male domination started to begin with, and a hope that it will be the future, not just the past.

And now, I am done with this discussion.

I'm not against feminism per se but I loathe how capitalists and the military have hijacked it. I'm sorry, it wasn't good for men to be CEOs who exploited the planet and the third world and it wasn't good for men to put on a badge, enter an unjust war and fight for 'freedom' and it's not good that women are now starting to do either of these things.  ::)

I'm not sure who you were directing this towards, but I am going to have to call Bullsh!t.

Honor killings - where a husband can kill his wife or daughter, still happen every day.  Women still make 2/3 as much as men in the US.  In Africa, genital mutilation still occurs to keep women from being promiscuous.  And let me tell you right now, that the epidemic of single mother/fatherless homes has nothing to do with the feminist movement, and everything to do with selfish men who walk out on their children - no matter their race. 

And yes, I will say with all of my being that men are more socially privileged than women are.  Period.


Two hands clapping!

Women have been fighting for a level playing field for centuries. Everything that women have in today's society we had to fight for-things that men seem to take for granted. There was a time when a woman was considered the property of her father and was basically sold to her husband. She then became the property of her husband. She didn't have any rights. In fact, there are many countries in the world where this is still the way. 

It wasn't until 1920 that women could even vote in this country. And it took an act of Congress (literally) in 2009 that women HAD to be paid the same as men. Once again, women are fighting for their right over their own bodies. Men seem to think they know what is best for women-but they don't. It really makes me very angry that men accuse women of stirring the pot when they are trying to fight for equality.


Cat

Emman, I respect your opinion and you have obviously put a lot of thought into your talking points.

I disagree with your opinion, and hold to my own. I don't subscribe to evolutionist theory, so right here is where your path and mine separate and we will have to agree to disagree. I will not change your mind and you will not change mine. You  believe that we are evolving physicially and therefore everything else in our minds and spirits must follow or vice versa. I do not believe in that concept at all-I believe if we were evolving before we would still be evolving today and we are not.

I can tell you however, that before the Christians, Hebrews, or any other Male dominated spiritual leadership, there were many tribes all over the world that worshipped the Earth Mother as the source of life and power, with the God as her consort and duke of war when the need arose. What you see as a loss of family values fairly recently (in the past century), I finally see as a rise of what was there before male domination started to begin with, and a hope that it will be the future, not just the past.

And now, I am done with this discussion.


I agree with Emman.

Women have been fighting for a level playing field for centuries. Everything that women have in today's society we had to fight for-things that men seem to take for granted. There was a time when a woman was considered the property of her father and was basically sold to her husband. She then became the property of her husband. She didn't have any rights. In fact, there are many countries in the world where this is still the way. 

It wasn't until 1920 that women could even vote in this country. And it took an act of Congress (literally) in 2009 that women HAD to be paid the same as men. Once again, women are fighting for their right over their own bodies. Men seem to think they know what is best for women-but they don't. It really makes me very angry that men accuse women of stirring the pot when they are trying to fight for equality.


Cat


The reality is, women do stir the pot. Why do you think society (in disputes) is biased in favor of the women? Courts are more lenient to women in general. consider the scenario of a woman claiming to be raped and a man denying it. Immediatley, the women will be comforted while the man is villianified. Doesn't matter if there is no proof, doesn't matter if he is proven innocent. He still has to endure the consequences and when the man is proven innocent, the woman often takes no punishment for the man's suffering and the man might even have to continue life with the stain to his name, never mind that he didn't do it. If he is lucky, he will get a "just be a man and take it" reception. Women are serial manipulators in society and they abuse this power so much that it shouldn't be a surprise that the world is full of dishonesty and other woes. Which leads me to another issue. Society has an apparent social acceptance to women being violent to men, and I see no relevance in the "but men are stronger" card, because some women are strong and not all men are macho-types. I'm not saying that men should get a free pass to go out and attack women, but it seems that women get a free pass to attack men all the time.

There is no such thing as "equality" if women can get away with the things that men can't.

The reality is, women do stir the pot. Why do you think society (in disputes) is biased in favor of the women? Courts are more lenient to women in general. consider the scenario of a woman claiming to be raped and a man denying it. Immediatley, the women will be comforted while the man is villianified. Doesn't matter if there is no proof, doesn't matter if he is proven innocent. He still has to endure the consequences and when the man is proven innocent, the woman often takes no punishment for the man's suffering and the man might even have to continue life with the stain to his name, never mind that he didn't do it. If he is lucky, he will get a "just be a man and take it" reception. Women are serial manipulators in society and they abuse this power so much that it shouldn't be a surprise that the world is full of dishonesty and other woes. Which leads me to another issue. Society has an apparent social acceptance to women being violent to men, and I see no relevance in the "but men are stronger" card, because some women are strong and not all men are macho-types. I'm not saying that men should get a free pass to go out and attack women, but it seems that women get a free pass to attack men all the time.

There is no such thing as "equality" if women can get away with the things that men can't.


Feminism specializes in half-truths, when it rightfully condemns the objectification of females but ignores or down plays the sheer disposability with which males are systemically subjugated to then feminist claims to fighting for gender equality seems pretty dubious. Victims are fudgeing victims, they rationalize this bullsheesh by saying "well it's the menz hurting menz", males are overwhelmingly the victims of all violent crimes(especially black males), even rape in the US, more men are raped than women in the US thanks to our efficient prison industry, more men work in the death professions, something to over 95 percent of all work related deaths belong to men. When blacks kill other blacks liberals rationalize it as systemic racism against blacks but when men are the victims well that's just too bad because a extremely small minority of the menz are in charge(competing and discriminating against other men with lesser standing).

Catwoman mentioned women being treated as property of their fathers and husbands but men were(and still are) being treated as property by the state, I mean it's still mandatory for young men to sign up for the selective service when they are between 18 and 25, I mean even I would've been too old to be drafted into the Vietnam War during the late '60s, they started from age 20 first then went from 21-25, next would be the 19 year olds, and the last to be drafted would be the 18 year olds. Both men and women contributed to the rigid gender roles but hey let's put all the blame and responsibility on the menz, great job feminist ideology(that's all it is anyways), way to go for further objectification of women. There was also harsh social stigmas attached to men that didn't provide enough for their wife and family, both men and women were exploited by society based on the circumstances and social context of the time, like I said before, there is real political leverage for feminist creating a narrow-minded black and white interpretation of the gender roles and privilege.

No feminine is still here.

Feminism seems popular with the younger girls today actually, I have some friends that are a bit younger and they seem somewhat more into it. I think it's making quite a bit of a comeback.

There are no more pretenses of equality in feminism.  It's just about ME getting what I want.  That's how you get slut feminism. 
::)

There are no more pretenses of equality in feminism.  It's just about ME getting what I want.  That's how you get slut feminism. 
::)


I've always thought the Slutwalk things were stupid and did more harm than good. Men have no right to harass women no matter how naked they are, but I mean have some freakin' common sense and respect yourself.  :D

I've always thought the Slutwalk things were stupid and did more harm than good. Men have no right to harass women no matter how naked they are, but I mean have some freakin' common sense and respect yourself.  :D


Personally, I love the Slut Walk, the idea behind it and those with the guts to participate.

I'm basically pro-slut walk, but I wonder in general whether the let-your-freak-flag-fly style of public demonstration is still effective in general. I think that came from the 60s-style of anti-vietnam war demonstration. these days though i think very demonstrative public protests tend to put people off.

Personally, I love the Slut Walk, the idea behind it and those with the guts to participate.


A guy can't win, though.

"I disapprove of the Slutwalk!"
>:(

"You oppressive patriarch!"

"I loooove the Slutwalk!"
:)

"You sexist pig!"

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/SlutWalk.jpg

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/SlutWalk.jpg


Now this some otter bs, probably the most privileged cohort(middle class white girls) of humans to walk the earth acting like they're all oppressed.

Now this some otter bs, probably the most privileged cohort(middle class white girls) of humans to walk the earth acting like they're all oppressed.


They just want to dress the way they want.

A guy can't win, though.

"I disapprove of the Slutwalk!"
>:(

"You oppressive patriarch!"

"I loooove the Slutwalk!"
:)

"You sexist pig!"


Oh yeah, true.  ;D I remember one time I told some feminists Sweden has the right idea by mandating their parliament have an equal number of both sexes. They said that goes against what feminists stand for. I was like wtf?

They just want to dress the way they want.


Yes, they want to promote their freedom of expression by dressing like 8th Avenue hookers, and at the same time they want to repress your freedom of express to stare and whistle.  It is not a realistic expectation nor is it meant to be.  It's just consequence-free teasing and an endless well for sexual harassment gripes.


Now this some otter bs, probably the most privileged cohort(middle class white girls) of humans to walk the earth acting like they're all oppressed.


That's the truth.  They're bullies.  They don't want equality with anybody.  They want deference and control and they're going to use their bodies to get it.  The idea of "taking the word slut back" is an idea they stole from the gay community who use the word "queer" amongst themselves.  It's not the same. Sexual orientation is involuntary.  Sluttiness is voluntary.  I live in a college town.  Young women today don't know life before Sex and the City.  They don't know the difference between Madison Avenue and Women's studies.  For all intents and purposes, there is none.

Well, you wouldn't catch me on the slut walk. No way in hell would I go up and down the street in lingerie. The cops might mistake me for soliciting.  ;D

I'll write a few scathing blogs instead.

Well, you wouldn't catch me on the slut walk. No way in hell would I go up and down the street in lingerie. The cops might mistake me for soliciting.  ;D

I'll write a few scathing blogs instead.


They'll probably have you arrested for prostitution.

And while I am at it, young women do not do themselves any favors expecting themselves to be taken seriously while affecting the babydoll voice that seems to be in vogue.  That, to me, is a very troubling psychological affectation.


I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that this is the dilemma that a large percentage of women go through. It's almost a conflict of what they want vs what is expected of them (from men and their peers) and this conflict seems to bear strange repercussions in men too because a lot of men don't seem to have any direction on how to deal with women these days. Men seem to go through a conflict as a result of the dilemma women have and nothing illustrates this better than the 'opening the door for a woman' situation. Should I treat a woman like a gentleman does and risk being told off for dealing with her like an invalid for not allowing her to open her own door or should I not open the door for her and risk being called an ill-mannered jerk?

The problem is that people try to assume each other's values in life rather than just confidently respect our own and let the other person deal with it. A lot of men have got into a fashionable mode of chatting women up by deliberately insulting or demoralising them. This in the UK is called 'negging' but it's what I call 'passive-aggressive flirting'. The idea is for a man to make a woman pay attention to him by reducing her self-confidence or security. An example of this happened a little while back when I went out with my housemate lady friends for a drink at an Irish bar. A bloke propped up at the bar was playing it cool with my youngest single housemate, disrespecting her profession of being a teacher. After a conversation she went to the toilet. He later came back to us and told us; "How can I compete with that? I am a grade 5 and she is a grade 9 (I don't know whether I agree with that living in the same house as her for so long  ;D) but it illustrates that men, for better or worse, have seemingly have had to change their chatting-up tactics with the times too.

As a sidenote, women who pretend to be stupid or childish to gain attention annoy me. I saw an adult lady friend of mine write 'Thankoo muvva' to her mom on Facebook. Lucky she is my mate that's all I have to say...  ;D

I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that this is the dilemma that a large percentage of women go through. It's almost a conflict of what they want vs what is expected of them (from men and their peers) and this conflict seems to bear strange repercussions in men too because a lot of men don't seem to have any direction on how to deal with women these days. Men seem to go through a conflict as a result of the dilemma women have and nothing illustrates this better than the 'opening the door for a woman' situation. Should I treat a woman like a gentleman does and risk being told off for dealing with her like an invalid for not allowing her to open her own door or should I not open the door for her and risk being called an ill-mannered jerk?

The problem is that people try to assume each other's values in life rather than just confidently respect our own and let the other person deal with it. A lot of men have got into a fashionable mode of chatting women up by deliberately insulting or demoralising them. This in the UK is called 'negging' but it's what I call 'passive-aggressive flirting'. The idea is for a man to make a woman pay attention to him by reducing her self-confidence or security. An example of this happened a little while back when I went out with my housemate lady friends for a drink at an Irish bar. A bloke propped up at the bar was playing it cool with my youngest single housemate, disrespecting her profession of being a teacher. After a conversation she went to the toilet. He later came back to us and told us; "How can I compete with that? I am a grade 5 and she is a grade 9 (I don't know whether I agree with that living in the same house as her for so long  ;D) but it illustrates that men, for better or worse, have seemingly have had to change their chatting-up tactics with the times too.

As a sidenote, women who pretend to be stupid or childish to gain attention annoy me. I saw an adult lady friend of mine write 'Thankoo muvva' to her mom on Facebook. Lucky she is my mate that's all I have to say...  ;D


Thought they'd mellow out as they got older.  The women in my dating range now are bitter, frumpy, and exiting the third marriage with three adolescent brats in tow.  They've already made up their minds that I'm an asshole and all I want is a piece of nookie. 

They're right.
:P

Thought they'd mellow out as they got older.  The women in my dating range now are bitter, frumpy, and exiting the third marriage with three adolescent brats in tow.  They've already made up their minds that I'm an asshole and all I want is a piece of nookie.


How do they know that?

Thought they'd mellow out as they got older.  The women in my dating range now are bitter, frumpy, and exiting the third marriage with three adolescent brats in tow.  They've already made up their minds that I'm an asshole and all I want is a piece of nookie. 

They're right.
:P


There's nothing wrong with wanting a 'piece of nookie'. There's just a right and a wrong way of getting it.  ;D

I'm probably being rather chauvinistic but I have put women into categories of singledom...

Teens (18+) - Childish
20s - Insecure
30s - Baggage
40s - A state of independence
50s - Horny
60s - Busy-body

Usually, if they haven't completely hated men's guts by the age of 50, they start chilling out a bit more.  ;D

There's nothing wrong with wanting a 'piece of nookie'. There's just a right and a wrong way of getting it

What's the right way for getting "nookie"?

30s-Baggage

Maybe that's what I need, a woman with baggage.

Maybe that's what I need, a woman with baggage.


Nobody wants, or needs, anybody with baggage. ;D

Sort it out emotionally and then get involved in a relationship.

Nobody wants, or needs, anybody with baggage. ;D

Sort it out emotionally and then get involved in a relationship.



emotional baggage is the worst.

emotional baggage is the worst.


So many out there with it. Myself included to some extent (though that comes from events in my life not relationship choices). I've remained single until I've sorted it and I'm nearly there now. It's unfair for anyone to inflict their stuff on somebody else in the name of love, especially if that person is dealing with their own issues.

I'm bitter.  I say angry things out of pure frustration.

I do think the whole "slut" thing is incompatible with feminism.  Capitalism objectifies women's sexuality to get people to buy things.  When women capitalize on their sexuality to get things for themselves, they play into the hands of marketers and corporations.  The power of sex appeal is based on cultural biases of age and body type.  If a woman bases her identity on sexual attraction, she is empowering herself only as far as men will allow, and disempowering other women who are not blessed with sex appeal.

I'm not saying a woman shouldn't have the right to be a slut, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I'm bitter.  I say angry things out of pure frustration.

I do think the whole "slut" thing is incompatible with feminism.  Capitalism objectifies women's sexuality to get people to buy things.  When women capitalize on their sexuality to get things for themselves, they play into the hands of marketers and corporations.  The power of sex appeal is based on cultural biases of age and body type.  If a woman bases her identity on sexual attraction, she is empowering herself only as far as men will allow, and disempowering other women who are not blessed with sex appeal.

I'm not saying a woman shouldn't have the right to be a slut, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do.


I understand your sentiments, MaxwellSmart, but I'm not too sure if I have a definite opinion on the matter. Let's see how I go with my theory...

I must add this disclaimer before I start: Every woman, like every man is an individual with independent thoughts, emotions, interests, ideas and beliefs. This theory I have is pretty general.

I kind of genuinely feel for beautiful women (or egotistical people) in a way. It all starts as small children. From the moment they are born they are being smothered with attention, adoration and compliments. Sometimes they are called princesses or something to the equivalent, nurturing a belief in their own importance at an early age. It started with my niece very quickly though she is an only child. Maybe it's more complicated for girls with sisters.

Another thing we have to remember, because men are very visual when it comes to attraction, women have to spend stupid amounts of money and time on clothes, shoes, make-up, hair-products and who knows what in order to keep the standard of attraction they are accustomed to. Men often grumble that beautiful women get all the breaks but also forget that it takes a lot of maintenance and hard work to get from the 'just got out of bed' look to the 'feel like a million dollars' look and maintain it throughout the day. As you have mentioned, Mr Smart, capitalism relies on the motto 'sex sells' and is successful with it because the relationship between the beauty industry and the consumer is a symbiotic one. One needs the other.

Life's big joke played on beautiful people who have spent so long relying on or taking advantage of situations via their beauty/handsomeness is that, even with the money and best of care, youthful beauty is fleeting, fragile and temporary. You see Hollywood stars in their 30s, 40s and beyond try to recapture their youthful looks via surgery of different kinds and they think they are getting away with it. Eventually, like what Talking Heads said in 'Wild Wild Life' - "Things fall apart, it's scientific". Eventually, they get to a point where they realise the game is up, they are getting older and not able to do things in the same way they have spent most of their life doing.

So many out there with it. Myself included to some extent (though that comes from events in my life not relationship choices). I've remained single until I've sorted it and I'm nearly there now. It's unfair for anyone to inflict their stuff on somebody else in the name of love, especially if that person is dealing with their own issues.


mhmm i agree

I understand your sentiments, MaxwellSmart, but I'm not too sure if I have a definite opinion on the matter. Let's see how I go with my theory...

I must add this disclaimer before I start: Every woman, like every man is an individual with independent thoughts, emotions, interests, ideas and beliefs. This theory I have is pretty general.

I kind of genuinely feel for beautiful women (or egotistical people) in a way. It all starts as small children. From the moment they are born they are being smothered with attention, adoration and compliments. Sometimes they are called princesses or something to the equivalent, nurturing a belief in their own importance at an early age. It started with my niece very quickly though she is an only child. Maybe it's more complicated for girls with sisters.

Another thing we have to remember, because men are very visual when it comes to attraction, women have to spend stupid amounts of money and time on clothes, shoes, make-up, hair-products and who knows what in order to keep the standard of attraction they are accustomed to. Men often grumble that beautiful women get all the breaks but also forget that it takes a lot of maintenance and hard work to get from the 'just got out of bed' look to the 'feel like a million dollars' look and maintain it throughout the day. As you have mentioned, Mr Smart, capitalism relies on the motto 'sex sells' and is successful with it because the relationship between the beauty industry and the consumer is a symbiotic one. One needs the other.

Life's big joke played on beautiful people who have spent so long relying on or taking advantage of situations via their beauty/handsomeness is that, even with the money and best of care, youthful beauty is fleeting, fragile and temporary. You see Hollywood stars in their 30s, 40s and beyond try to recapture their youthful looks via surgery of different kinds and they think they are getting away with it. Eventually, like what Talking Heads said in 'Wild Wild Life' - "Things fall apart, it's scientific". Eventually, they get to a point where they realise the game is up, they are getting older and not able to do things in the same way they have spent most of their life doing.


Good point.  The double standards for men and women cut both ways.  It is MUCH harder for women to get older.  Women my age fight like hell to stay youthful.  Me? I see another gray hair or wrinkle, and I'm like, meh, I don't care. 
;D

Good point.  The double standards for men and women cut both ways.  It is MUCH harder for women to get older.  Women my age fight like hell to stay youthful.  Me? I see another gray hair or wrinkle, and I'm like, meh, I don't care. 
;D


Let's put it this way, it took Tom Jones a long time to realise he was getting long in the tooth. He is about 72 years old now and I read somewhere he has been using plastic surgeons for 40 years and has been told recently that if he has one more operation his face will collapse. That's a bloke! Imagine what goes through a woman's head when she sees a grey hair or an extra wrinkle.

Tom Jones has not ruled out facial surgery in the future...I think it's time for him to 'help himself' and pack it in.

  Me? I see another gray hair or wrinkle, and I'm like, meh, I don't care.

That's what I say. I got gray hair on the sides of my head and I'm still pretty youthful as I approach 39 next month.

Let's put it this way, it took Tom Jones a long time to realise he was getting long in the tooth. He is about 72 years old now and I read somewhere he has been using plastic surgeons for 40 years and has been told recently that if he has one more operation his face will collapse. That's a bloke! Imagine what goes through a woman's head when she sees a grey hair or an extra wrinkle.

Tom Jones has not ruled out facial surgery in the future...I think it's time for him to 'help himself' and pack it in.


Pack it in?

Tom Jones is coming home! It's not unusual for him to smoke that green green grass of home while thinking about his funny familiar forgotten facelifts.

Pack it in?

Tom Jones is coming home! It's not unusual for him to smoke that green green grass of home while thinking about his funny familiar forgotten facelifts.


I'd be surprised if Jones's face had the strength. One drag of that stuff and his face will implode, lol.

Good point.  The double standards for men and women cut both ways.  It is MUCH harder for women to get older.  Women my age fight like hell to stay youthful.  Me? I see another gray hair or wrinkle, and I'm like, meh, I don't care. 
;D



I make no bones about the fact that I color my hair. I have been coloring my hair since I was 19? Why? Because I have A LOT of gray hair-let me rephrase that-I have A LOT of WHITE hair. Yes, I had a lot of white hair at the age of 19-even earlier. I started getting it at age 15.  :o :o :o  For me, I don't think it is a matter of fighting the age process. Maybe it is. I just like the auburn better than white. My SIL decided to let her hair go natural. She is salt & pepper and she loves it. I might, too if the white wasn't so overpowering.



Cat

I make no bones about the fact that I color my hair. I have been coloring my hair since I was 19? Why? Because I have A LOT of gray hair-let me rephrase that-I have A LOT of WHITE hair. Yes, I had a lot of white hair at the age of 19-even earlier. I started getting it at age 15.  :o :o :o  For me, I don't think it is a matter of fighting the age process. Maybe it is. I just like the auburn better than white. My SIL decided to let her hair go natural. She is salt & pepper and she loves it. I might, too if the white wasn't so overpowering.


I see what you are saying, Cat, and I didn't mean to imply my 'theory' above applied to all women (I gave my little disclaimer). It's just when I observe things around me, I make conclusions and theories on what I see. I'm trying to understand how this world works. :)

I really depends on the girls gettin' past diaper screamirs,  A kinda death a kinda one candy we forgot.  "Our grunyan seals, how much have they got"

It love to see an unarmed car throwing patients out of the train in the high planes!" 

She should still be in Federal custody while I "Havealottoliverfrom" A has'nt heard of the apologic order we're being expelled!  Mexamillion 2:00 isn't going be too healthy.  The Mister and Mrs buzzing up around the point ain't know worry about us at all!,  '

No status perp perp is going to win the debate.  It doesn't matter how we sound on Two story metal dinours and other revolting things from givage.

I really depends on the girls gettin' past diaper screamirs,  A kinda death a kinda one candy we forgot.  "Our grunyan seals, how much have they got"

It love to see an unarmed car throwing patients out of the train in the high planes!" 

She should still be in Federal custody while I "Havealottoliverfrom" A has'nt heard of the apologic order we're being expelled!  Mexamillion 2:00 isn't going be too healthy.  The Mister and Mrs buzzing up around the point ain't know worry about us at all!,  '

No status perp perp is going to win the debate.  It doesn't matter how we sound on Two story metal dinours and other revolting things from givage.


I haven't a clue what you just wrote here, Mr Smart.  ;D

I haven't a clue what you just wrote here, Mr Smart.  ;D


Me Too Bobby.

I really depends on the girls gettin' past diaper screamirs,  A kinda death a kinda one candy we forgot.  "Our grunyan seals, how much have they got"

It love to see an unarmed car throwing patients out of the train in the high planes!" 

She should still be in Federal custody while I "Havealottoliverfrom" A has'nt heard of the apologic order we're being expelled!  Mexamillion 2:00 isn't going be too healthy.  The Mister and Mrs buzzing up around the point ain't know worry about us at all!,  '

No status perp perp is going to win the debate.  It doesn't matter how we sound on Two story metal dinours and other revolting things from givage.
I used Bing translator to translate this into Dutch and back into English, but I still don't understand it.

"I really depends on the girls get ' past diaper screamirs, a kind of death a little a candy we forget. "Our grunyan seals, how much did they got" The love to see an unarmed car throwing patients from the train in the high aircraft! "They should still be in federal custody while I "Havealottoliverfrom" A has'nt heard the apologic order, that we his expulsion! Mexamillion 2: 00 is not going to be healthy. The Mr. and Mrs. buzzing up around the point is don't know worries about us all!, ' no status perp's a perp's going to win the debate. It doesn't matter how we sound on two metal dinours and other odious things from givage story. "

Is masculism fizzling out?

Is masculism fizzling out?


If you are thinking masculinity then no I don't think it is fizzling out.

If you are thinking masculinity then no I don't think it is fizzling out.


masculinity will live forever.

I haven't a clue what you just wrote here, Mr Smart.  ;D


Uh-oh.  I think it was another case of PUI.

http://api.ning.com/files/cAuuV8TiaQnHYD7b9XNJoOAvVbh8cSDJs3PAegi*CC6TNXZtqKicYMuyeRVdDDX-ZY4MX1ZyfBXIgS-qW2Tu2TAL0pxv*hoX/stonedSmiley.png

Uh-oh.  I think it was another case of PUI.

http://api.ning.com/files/cAuuV8TiaQnHYD7b9XNJoOAvVbh8cSDJs3PAegi*CC6TNXZtqKicYMuyeRVdDDX-ZY4MX1ZyfBXIgS-qW2Tu2TAL0pxv*hoX/stonedSmiley.png


Why, I never would have guessed.  :D

Uh-oh.  I think it was another case of PUI.

http://api.ning.com/files/cAuuV8TiaQnHYD7b9XNJoOAvVbh8cSDJs3PAegi*CC6TNXZtqKicYMuyeRVdDDX-ZY4MX1ZyfBXIgS-qW2Tu2TAL0pxv*hoX/stonedSmiley.png


I noticed that with a few posts made around the same time that night, including one in the Chinese New Year thread. Was weird and bizarre, didn't make much sense...but still way better than any decadeology post!  :D

Uh-oh.  I think it was another case of PUI.

http://api.ning.com/files/cAuuV8TiaQnHYD7b9XNJoOAvVbh8cSDJs3PAegi*CC6TNXZtqKicYMuyeRVdDDX-ZY4MX1ZyfBXIgS-qW2Tu2TAL0pxv*hoX/stonedSmiley.png


Haha, unreal!

What kind of cigarette were you taking? That must have been some strong stuff. I can't say 'fag' because that means something else in the US...  ;D

Karma for writing such inspired stupidity.

Haha, unreal!

What kind of cigarette were you taking? That must have been some strong stuff. I can't say 'fag' because that means something else in the US...  ;D

Karma for writing such inspired stupidity.


I don't remember writing that.  Not at all.  Amnesia.  Schizophrenics often talk like that.  It doesn't make sense even as nonsense. 
:o

I don't remember writing that.  Not at all.  Amnesia.  Schizophrenics often talk like that.  It doesn't make sense even as nonsense. 
:o


Then who did?  ::)

Then who did?  ::)



His evil twin.



Cat

Then who did?  ::)


I did.  I must have.  I think?
:o

His evil twin.



Cat


like he's gonna have someone posting as him?  ::)

The Daily Advertiser newspaper of Lousiana still uses "Mrs. (Husband's First Name, Last Name)" for their wedding notices, which shows that the notion that a married woman is still "The wife of" is still alive and well, despite having a professional career. Sure this is formal, but still proves what survives.