I've often wondered what led to hip-hop music completely taking over the music scene (in the United States). It's stunning really when you think about it, in the '90s hip-hop was popular but you had a very strong alternative rock scene as well, also a more adult oriented r&b scene...but nowadays especially since around 2003/4 you have reached a point where the entire popular music scene literally is hip-hop. Now I know in Europe and other countries that this is not the case, but I wonder how it came to be like this in this country. I mean I don't even think disco reached this type of chart saturation and that stuff was a HUGE chart presence in the late '70s. It seems like the music culture is stuck this way in this country too. I've heard a few people here make claims that hip-hop is less popular than a couple years ago and quote album sales, but I think that's nonsense since the reality is albums are dead and every chart I look at it is literally 95% hip-hop. I do like my dose of certain pop/r&b (Beyonce, Rihanna, Keyshia Cole, etc.), but I do not like the gangsta/glam/sexed up rap scene of today. That brings me to another concern, the album is almost totally dead, looking at the industry today I can see artists in the next decade not even releasing albums anymore and everybody will just have one or two singles, sell some ringtones, then will go away. People say the 2010s will possibly have better music but I doubt it, I think it will be worse due to what I just said, an industry that's backbone is becoming SOLELY singles and ringtones, the future looks very bad imo. I really kind of despise ringtones btw, because I think artists are releasing "music" nowadays that seems like it was primarily created to sell ringtones. Comments?

You mean that you do not recognize the poetry of Flo Rida's latest hiphop smash hit, "Low"?

She had dem apple bottom jeans
The shoes with the fur
Everybody in da club was looking at her
Dem baggy sweat pants
And the Reeboks with the straps
And gaxe her great big booty a smack

Make it rain, I'm makin it snow
Work the pole, I got the bank roll
Imma say that I prefer them no clothes
I'm into that, I love women exposed
She threw it back at me, I gave her more
Cash ain't a problem, I know where it goes

You mean that you do not recognize the poetry of Flo Rida's latest hiphop smash hit, "Low"?

She had dem apple bottom jeans
The shoes with the fur
Everybody in da club was looking at her
Dem baggy sweat pants
And the Reeboks with the straps
And gaxe her great big booty a smack

Make it rain, I'm makin it snow
Work the pole, I got the bank roll
Imma say that I prefer them no clothes
I'm into that, I love women exposed
She threw it back at me, I gave her more
Cash ain't a problem, I know where it goes


Shakespeare wishes he wrote that. I bet you anything. That is pure passion in lyric form. 8-P

Baby

This is an interesting topic that I have often wondered about.  I think it evolved over the past 13 years from several influences.

Part I - Evolution of Hip Hop from Street Message to Big Money Party Rap
I used to enjoy hip-hop/rap in the late 80s and early 90's (EPMD, Eric B & Rakim, Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Run DMC, etc).  I stopped listening to it around '95 when I discovered other types of music - at that time, 70's, 80's, chillout, triphop, trance, etc.  I liked the stories and messages that the music had until that time.   

Hip hop broke into the masses in '94 with Notorious BIG's "Ready To Die," Dr. Dre's "The Chronic" and Snoop Dogg's "Doggystyle."  These albums explicity condoned marijuana use which was making a HUGE comeback (from the 70's).  These albums, particularly "The Chronic" changed hip hop forever - Big-Money-Backing, Ridiculous beats, Smooth lyrics, Outstanding production, and Catchy songs brought this to all the white girls in every town.  These albums also proved that hip hop can sell LOTS of albums.  They mixed catchy songs with hardcore street lyrics.  White people (including myself) would buy the albums and dance to the upbeat songs and jokingly pretend to be "street" with the hardcore songs.

Previously "White America" was exposed to a song here and a song there such as the Humpty Dance, Tone Loc (Wild Thing), LL Cool J (Mama Said Knock You Out), Beasties Boys (of course).  Typically "Party Rap," which was "safe" for white people to listen to because it did not have negative lyrics or a "street" vibe that they cannot relate to.

Enter Puff Daddy (and my exit).  This great producer (and annoying) self-proclaimed rapper hit the scene and had two lines in every song that he produced.  He knew the money was there and put his face and (annoying) voice everywhere.  His songs were produced well and very catchy to maximize records sales.  His lyrics were very shallow but had good beats.  Hip hop was everywhere by the late 90's but there were still other music choices.  The rock scene has some good releases in the late 90's and dance/trance music from Europe was somewhat popular again.

Fast forward to 2008.  I think we are still in the Puff Daddy era that he created.  The majority of hip hop artists and record labels want a big hit to sell alot of albums.  Deep thinking and hardcore street lyrics do not sell albums because "White / Brown / Red / Yellow / Purple America" cannot relate to the lyrics. 

Part II - Black is Cool - Athletes as role models and the expanding role of African Americans in media and society
During the 90's, athletes became extremely popular and earned alot of money.  Sports and athletes became very successful due to sports card collecting and video games (Madden, particularly).  Basketball became huge in the 90's due to Michael Jordan.  Football became very popular as well due to numerous athletes.  African Americans began to move up in society and have become more accepted in society due to sports, music, and other things.  This made is easier for "White America" to embrace hip hop - especially the "Party Rap" of the late 90's.

The most interesting thing about hip hop taking over mainstream music in the last 10 years is that there has only been ONE successful WHITE rapper - Eminem.  Gone are the days of gangster rap.  Today's hip hop is all about dancing in a club and fashion.  It is mindless.   Recently Reggaeton has become the rebellion of the established "Party Rap" scene.  It is not a full rebellion, but also contains some mindless lyrics (Calle 13 for example) but also some hard edges lyrics and beats (Daddy Yankee).

Part III - Money, Glamour, Respect.
Hip Hop makes money and is proud to flaunt it.  Money is in the lyrics and in your face.  Hip hop artists are proud to put out shallow songs as long as they are making lots of money and have their Bentleys and Diamond Teeth (hahaha).  Young people in society these days worship money.  People idolize the money, glamour, and success.

I would like to see other people's observations, thoughts, and opinions.

I wish I knew why hip-hop is so popular in the US.  There are a few good songs, but for the most part, they all sound the same.

In the UK, dance music and rock is the dominant force, and in Canada, it's Country music and Rock

I think it will be worse due to what I just said, an industry that's backbone is becoming SOLELY singles and ringtones, the future looks very bad imo. I really kind of despise ringtones btw, because I think artists are releasing "music" nowadays that seems like it was primarily created to sell ringtones. Comments?


  That might be an aspect, depending on who you ask, of postmodernism.  Art as product...

  The nice thing about music, or any art for that matter, is that it's at its best when it's "transgressive".  The less it intends to serve society's predetermined tastes, the better...

This is an interesting topic that I have often wondered about.  I think it evolved over the past 13 years from several influences.

Part I - Evolution of Hip Hop from Street Message to Big Money Party Rap
I used to enjoy hip-hop/rap in the late 80s and early 90's (EPMD, Eric B & Rakim, Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Run DMC, etc).  I stopped listening to it around '95 when I discovered other types of music - at that time, 70's, 80's, chillout, triphop, trance, etc.  I liked the stories and messages that the music had until that time.   

Hip hop broke into the masses in '94 with Notorious BIG's "Ready To Die," Dr. Dre's "The Chronic" and Snoop Dogg's "Doggystyle."  These albums explicity condoned marijuana use which was making a HUGE comeback (from the 70's).  These albums, particularly "The Chronic" changed hip hop forever - Big-Money-Backing, Ridiculous beats, Smooth lyrics, Outstanding production, and Catchy songs brought this to all the white girls in every town.  These albums also proved that hip hop can sell LOTS of albums.  They mixed catchy songs with hardcore street lyrics.  White people (including myself) would buy the albums and dance to the upbeat songs and jokingly pretend to be "street" with the hardcore songs.

Previously "White America" was exposed to a song here and a song there such as the Humpty Dance, Tone Loc (Wild Thing), LL Cool J (Mama Said Knock You Out), Beasties Boys (of course).  Typically "Party Rap," which was "safe" for white people to listen to because it did not have negative lyrics or a "street" vibe that they cannot relate to.

Enter Puff Daddy (and my exit).  This great producer (and annoying) self-proclaimed rapper hit the scene and had two lines in every song that he produced.  He knew the money was there and put his face and (annoying) voice everywhere.  His songs were produced well and very catchy to maximize records sales.  His lyrics were very shallow but had good beats.  Hip hop was everywhere by the late 90's but there were still other music choices.  The rock scene has some good releases in the late 90's and dance/trance music from Europe was somewhat popular again.

Fast forward to 2008.  I think we are still in the Puff Daddy era that he created.  The majority of hip hop artists and record labels want a big hit to sell alot of albums.  Deep thinking and hardcore street lyrics do not sell albums because "White / Brown / Red / Yellow / Purple America" cannot relate to the lyrics. 

Part II - Black is Cool - Athletes as role models and the expanding role of African Americans in media and society
During the 90's, athletes became extremely popular and earned alot of money.  Sports and athletes became very successful due to sports card collecting and video games (Madden, particularly).  Basketball became huge in the 90's due to Michael Jordan.  Football became very popular as well due to numerous athletes.  African Americans began to move up in society and have become more accepted in society due to sports, music, and other things.  This made is easier for "White America" to embrace hip hop - especially the "Party Rap" of the late 90's.

The most interesting thing about hip hop taking over mainstream music in the last 10 years is that there has only been ONE successful WHITE rapper - Eminem.  Gone are the days of gangster rap.  Today's hip hop is all about dancing in a club and fashion.  It is mindless.   Recently Reggaeton has become the rebellion of the established "Party Rap" scene.  It is not a full rebellion, but also contains some mindless lyrics (Calle 13 for example) but also some hard edges lyrics and beats (Daddy Yankee).

Part III - Money, Glamour, Respect.
Hip Hop makes money and is proud to flaunt it.  Money is in the lyrics and in your face.  Hip hop artists are proud to put out shallow songs as long as they are making lots of money and have their Bentleys and Diamond Teeth (hahaha).  Young people in society these days worship money.  People idolize the money, glamour, and success.

I would like to see other people's observations, thoughts, and opinions.


I agree with several points in this post.  I do think that we're still living in the era that Puff Daddy created.  It seems like the late 90s was when the materialistic "I'm rich bitch!" attitude started to take over Rap.  It was there before (bling has always existed, for example), but it seems like it went into overdrive in the late 90s and that this materialism has continued ten years later.

I also agree that Rap's flaunting of their status, wealth, and glamor are the main reason why its popular with young people who idolize these rappers.  It is perhaps no coincidence that Rock music went into a decline in popularity in the 00s as it doesn't place much emphasis on materialism at all (thank god, I don't want to return to the materialistic excess of the 80s hair bands).  People see the glamorizing of rappers and their lifestyle and they come to see it as "cool" and become fans of it.  Nowadays though, it seems like a lot of people simply listen to Rap because its "cool".  Going along with the crowd basically.

I do notice that a lot of young males who are big Rap fans view themselves as "badass" (I think they're stupid).  Perhaps the tough guy image that Rap seems to convey, even in its current state of excess, is a key reason why it is popular among young males.

I also think that Rap music has become popular due to exposure by the media.  Rap wouldn't have gotten to where it is today if it hadn't been for the media latching onto it as the next big thing.  It naturally became a self fulfilling prophecy.  I think a big part of why the media christened Rap as the next big thing was due to the backlash against Teen Pop.  The media needed something more "real" and "hardcore", yet still easily commercialized.  Rap made perfect sense and thus it got the media exposure it needed to become popular.

Now, even the kids and older people are jumping on the bandwagon.  Rap culture is now featured in kids shows and movies (look at how Alvin and the Chipmunks gave them a Hip-Hop look) and I remember seeing several fortysomething adults utilizing elements of Rap culture in school presentations in a desperate attempt to relate to the youth.  You would think that the 17 year olds who like Rap would begin viewing it as "uncool" once they realized their 12 year old sibling liked it too and saw fortysomething adults jumping on the bandwagon to try to relate to the kids, but apparently the youth doesn't think that way.

The sad thing is I don't think mainstream Rap music can be saved.  Its been in steady decline for ten years now.  I've been saying since 2006 that "this is the year mainstream Rap becomes better", yet it has only gotten worse.  The sad fact is that the audience of mainstream Rap is too dumb to realize how bad the music is becoming.  I've browsed several music boards (including - god forbid - the one at myspace, temporarily) and I've found that mainstream Rap fans tend to be some of the dumbest music fans in existence.  While more serious rappers like Lupe Fiasco and Common have made inroads recently, the majority of the fanbase of mainstream Rap is too dumb and ignorant to listen to their kind of music.  I honestly think mainstream Rap is beyond salvation at this point.

Not that I wholly mind.  I don't want the same dumbasses who listen to Soulja Boy and T-Pain to start liking some of my favorite underground rappers.

As a teenager, the majority of my peers were into hardcore rap. Never understood the appeal of it.

I agree with several points in this post.  I do think that we're still living in the era that Puff Daddy created.  It seems like the late 90s was when the materialistic "I'm rich bitch!" attitude started to take over Rap.  It was there before (bling has always existed, for example), but it seems like it went into overdrive in the late 90s and that this materialism has continued ten years later.

I also agree that Rap's flaunting of their status, wealth, and glamor are the main reason why its popular with young people who idolize these rappers.  It is perhaps no coincidence that Rock music went into a decline in popularity in the 00s as it doesn't place much emphasis on materialism at all (thank god, I don't want to return to the materialistic excess of the 80s hair bands).  People see the glamorizing of rappers and their lifestyle and they come to see it as "cool" and become fans of it.  Nowadays though, it seems like a lot of people simply listen to Rap because its "cool".  Going along with the crowd basically.

I do notice that a lot of young males who are big Rap fans view themselves as "badass" (I think they're stupid).  Perhaps the tough guy image that Rap seems to convey, even in its current state of excess, is a key reason why it is popular among young males.

I also think that Rap music has become popular due to exposure by the media.  Rap wouldn't have gotten to where it is today if it hadn't been for the media latching onto it as the next big thing.  It naturally became a self fulfilling prophecy.  I think a big part of why the media christened Rap as the next big thing was due to the backlash against Teen Pop.  The media needed something more "real" and "hardcore", yet still easily commercialized.  Rap made perfect sense and thus it got the media exposure it needed to become popular.

Now, even the kids and older people are jumping on the bandwagon.  Rap culture is now featured in kids shows and movies (look at how Alvin and the Chipmunks gave them a Hip-Hop look) and I remember seeing several fortysomething adults utilizing elements of Rap culture in school presentations in a desperate attempt to relate to the youth.  You would think that the 17 year olds who like Rap would begin viewing it as "uncool" once they realized their 12 year old sibling liked it too and saw fortysomething adults jumping on the bandwagon to try to relate to the kids, but apparently the youth doesn't think that way.

The sad thing is I don't think mainstream Rap music can be saved.  Its been in steady decline for ten years now.  I've been saying since 2006 that "this is the year mainstream Rap becomes better", yet it has only gotten worse.  The sad fact is that the audience of mainstream Rap is too dumb to realize how bad the music is becoming.  I've browsed several music boards (including - god forbid - the one at myspace, temporarily) and I've found that mainstream Rap fans tend to be some of the dumbest music fans in existence.  While more serious rappers like Lupe Fiasco and Common have made inroads recently, the majority of the fanbase of mainstream Rap is too dumb and ignorant to listen to their kind of music.  I honestly think mainstream Rap is beyond salvation at this point.

Not that I wholly mind.  I don't want the same dumbasses who listen to Soulja Boy and T-Pain to start liking some of my favorite underground rappers.



Great post, and I completely agree with everything you said. I have also been surprised that more people haven't "grown out" of mainstream rap. I mean, I liked it when I was 12 back in 1999, but by the time I got on into high school, I just sort of felt "beyond it".

I do think that current rap's popularity has started to decline a bit though.  From all that I've seen and heard, it's not nearly as popular as it was a couple of years ago. I think you could say that, part of the reason it still charts so well is that nothing has really come up to take its place yet. Sort of like hair metal by 1989 or disco by 1979, it's still there but its popularity is really starting to decline.

You mean that you do not recognize the poetry of Flo Rida's latest hiphop smash hit, "Low"?




I love that song. Can't understand what he says, y'know, like Louie, Louie but still love the song.

I love that song. Can't understand what he says, y'know, like Louie, Louie but still love the song.

The original 1955 Richard Berry version is perfectly clear...though it's in a Creole pidgin...but that's not a record high school kids were likely to have in the 1960s as they listened to the Kingsmen version over and over only to come up with:
"I felt my b*ner in her hair!"
:P

Well... "Dancing Wit The Stars" just did a dance sequence to Flo Rida.

http://"Shawty got low, low, low, low, low, low, low."

This is an interesting topic that I have often wondered about.  I think it evolved over the past 13 years from several influences.

Part I - Evolution of Hip Hop from Street Message to Big Money Party Rap
I used to enjoy hip-hop/rap in the late 80s and early 90's (EPMD, Eric B & Rakim, Tribe Called Quest, Public Enemy, Run DMC, etc).  I stopped listening to it around '95 when I discovered other types of music - at that time, 70's, 80's, chillout, triphop, trance, etc.  I liked the stories and messages that the music had until that time.   



Previously "White America" was exposed to a song here and a song there such as the Humpty Dance, Tone Loc (Wild Thing), LL Cool J (Mama Said Knock You Out), Beasties Boys (of course).  Typically "Party Rap," which was "safe" for white people to listen to because it did not have negative lyrics or a "street" vibe that they cannot relate to.

Enter Puff Daddy (and my exit).  This great producer (and annoying) self-proclaimed rapper hit the scene and had two lines in every song that he produced.  He knew the money was there and put his face and (annoying) voice everywhere.  His songs were produced well and very catchy to maximize records sales.  His lyrics were very shallow but had good beats.  Hip hop was everywhere by the late 90's but there were still other music choices.  The rock scene has some good releases in the late 90's and dance/trance music from Europe was somewhat popular again.


Part II - Black is Cool - Athletes as role models and the expanding role of African Americans in media and society
During the 90's, athletes became extremely popular and earned alot of money.  Sports and athletes became very successful due to sports card collecting and video games (Madden, particularly).  Basketball became huge in the 90's due to Michael Jordan.  Football became very popular as well due to numerous athletes.  African Americans began to move up in society and have become more accepted in society due to sports, music, and other things.  This made is easier for "White America" to embrace hip hop - especially the "Party Rap" of the late 90's.

The most interesting thing about hip hop taking over mainstream music in the last 10 years is that there has only been ONE successful WHITE rapper - Eminem.  Gone are the days of gangster rap.  Today's hip hop is all about dancing in a club and fashion.  It is mindless.   Recently Reggaeton has become the rebellion of the established "Party Rap" scene.  It is not a full rebellion, but also contains some mindless lyrics (Calle 13 for example) but also some hard edges lyrics and beats (Daddy Yankee).

Part III - Money, Glamour, Respect.
Hip Hop makes money and is proud to flaunt it.  Money is in the lyrics and in your face.  Hip hop artists are proud to put out shallow songs as long as they are making lots of money and have their Bentleys and Diamond Teeth (hahaha).  Young people in society these days worship money.  People idolize the money, glamour, and success.

I would like to see other people's observations, thoughts, and opinions.

Thats true of the rap of the late 80's/early 90's part like Tone Loc or LL Cool J it wasn;t offensive to white people like some other rap was back then.

I agree with you about the Puff Daddy era(1997-mid 1998) he was the one that mainstreamed hip-hop in the Top 40. As far as Puff Daddy's music he's lucky he sampled and covered alot of artists from the 80's(Mathhew Wilder and David Bowie) and 1990(Lisa Stansfield) and he hit big with it.  Don;t forgot about Puffy;s protege at the time(Mase) he was big in late 1997-mid 1998 as well. Still Hip-Hop wasn;t terrible to listen too in 1998 like it is now. You also forgot about Tupac's and Biggie's death and late 96 and early 97 respectively that led to Puffy being popular with the song "I'll be Missing You" which was a tribute to Biggie. I"ll Be Missing You" also sampled the melody to the Police's 1983 hit "Every Breath You Take" and excerpts of the 1983 hit as well.

As far as Black is cool in the 1990's had something to do with Hip Hop being as  popular as it is now I disagree teenagers would wear baggy clothes to reflect the Black is Cool Movement in the 1990's. Hip-Hop was not that big in the early to mid 90's as it was say 2003-early 2006.

You forgot about 50 Cent coming onto the scene in 2003 Hip-Hop totally exploded when 50 arrived on the scene and he was dominant from 2003-mid 2005. The Jay-Z-Nas fued  back in 2002 also helped Hip-Hop as well and that only was 6-8 months before 50 came out. So in late 1996-mid 1998 and mid 2002-early 2003 Hip-Hop had stuff break their way(certain events, artists album debuts) when rock music didn;t. 50 Cent was also the first underground rapper(pre-2003) to pick a fued with a popular mainstream rapper(Ja Rule.)

As far as rappers using diamonds, cars in their video's and references to money in their lyrics its so old already I mean even grunge and I like 90's grunge but it didn;t last this long as this glam rap era has. I mean what did grunge last 5 years(92-96) as opposed to Hip-Hop's bling-bling attitude(1997+)

I also think that Rap music has become popular due to exposure by the media.  Rap wouldn't have gotten to where it is today if it hadn't been for the media latching onto it as the next big thing.  It naturally became a self fulfilling prophecy.  I think a big part of why the media christened Rap as the next big thing was due to the backlash against Teen Pop.  The media needed something more "real" and "hardcore", yet still easily commercialized.  Rap made perfect sense and thus it got the media exposure it needed to become popular.

Now, even the kids and older people are jumping on the bandwagon.  Rap culture is now featured in kids shows and movies (look at how Alvin and the Chipmunks gave them a Hip-Hop look) and I remember seeing several fortysomething adults utilizing elements of Rap culture in school presentations in a desperate attempt to relate to the youth.  You would think that the 17 year olds who like Rap would begin viewing it as "uncool" once they realized their 12 year old sibling liked it too and saw fortysomething adults jumping on the bandwagon to try to relate to the kids, but apparently the youth doesn't think that way.

I disagree about the media latching on to Hip-Hop and thats what it popular. Hip-Hop was not in a good state from 1999-2002 but once 50 Cent in 2003 came out it became popular overnight again. People saw 50 as rebillous at the time. I think rock music was still as popular as Hip-Hop in 2002.

As far as older people using Hip-Hop using Hip-Hop to communicate that happened in the movie "Dangerous Minds" in 1995 not just recently.

I've heard a few people here make claims that hip-hop is less popular than a couple years ago and quote album sales, but I think that's nonsense since the reality is albums are dead and every chart I look at it is literally 95% hip-hop. I do like my dose of certain pop/r&b (Beyonce, Rihanna, Keyshia Cole, etc.), but I do not like the gangsta/glam/sexed up rap scene of today. That brings me to another concern, the album is almost totally dead, looking at the industry today I can see artists in the next decade not even releasing albums anymore and everybody will just have one or two singles, sell some ringtones, then will go away. People say the 2010s will possibly have better music but I doubt it, I think it will be worse due to what I just said, an industry that's backbone is becoming SOLELY singles and ringtones, the future looks very bad imo. I really kind of despise ringtones btw, because I think artists are releasing "music" nowadays that seems like it was primarily created to sell ringtones. Comments?
As far as the charts being 95% hip-hop I think thats a way overestimation. Yeah there is still Hip-Hop on the charts now doubt but Hip-Hop does not cover 95% of the charts in my opinion.

I do think the 2010's will be a better decade for music a little bit I mean I think the glam rap era will be over by then I mean how long can the glam rap era actually last?

Yeah I think selling ringtone's primarily over albums is a bad thing for the music industry but hey its recording companies that sign these ringtone rappers.

I think the industy selling primarily to teenagers is a bad mistake. I mean ok grunge was popular with young people(about 15-25 year old range)in the 90's but there was also stuff like Mariah Carey or Toni Braxton and 40+ year old people would buy albums of those 2 artists.

As far as the charts being 95% hip-hop I think thats a way overestimation. Yeah there is still Hip-Hop on the charts now doubt but Hip-Hop does not cover 95% of the charts in my opinion.

I do think the 2010's will be a better decade for music a little bit I mean I think the glam rap era will be over by then I mean how long can the glam rap era actually last?

Yeah I think selling ringtone's primarily over albums is a bad thing for the music industry but hey its recording companies that sign these ringtone rappers.

I think the industy selling primarily to teenagers is a bad mistake. I mean ok grunge was popular with young people(about 15-25 year old range)in the 90's but there was also stuff like Mariah Carey or Toni Braxton and 40+ year old people would buy albums of those 2 artists.


Well I mean hip-hop influenced music so not just rap for that figure (so that would include most of today r&b, Ray J and Chris Brown, etc. are obviously hip-hop oriented imo), it's not really THAT much but it is without a doubt the majority force on the charts by far.

Kids always want what's new, or that is at least what radio stations think - and my theory is that rap is so ugly, so bad, it never got big UNTIL we were out of new music, so the kids wanted what hasn't been popular - the ugly.

Seriously, rap's produced some of the ugliest noises I've ever heard in my life. And up until that sentence, I didn't even mean this disparagingly, I just think that's why it's the way it is. XD

Great points so far by just about everyone.

I agree "the album" seems like it died after about 2004 or early '05 (American Idiot, Hot Fuss and Kelly Clarkson's debut seemed like the last really big ones), and that might have something to do with why pop music in general isn't as inspired or diverse as before.

Yeah, I think TV is right too, about the '90s being more across the board. I actually can remember alot of older people who mildly liked grunge (even if the hair metal fans and some '80s people hated it, lol) and there was enough diversity to where if you didn't like hip hop you could've listened to current music and avoided it. It seems like older people liked Jon Secada alot, I had a teacher who liked Mariah too. There was alot of AC.

1995 seems like it was the first year hip hop STARTED getting closer to the state its in today, although of course lots of other music still co-existed with it. The '80s influence was totally gone, and that was when it was mainstream enough for white kids to like Tupac as much as they may have liked rock, dance or pop music. The transition wasn't totally complete until maybe 2003 though.

As far as why it has such a hold on the charts and influences other genres, I think it's just because it's seeped into the culture so much. The people who do like it are probably loyal fans, so the music industry thinks that's what kids want, so it has a chain effect. If that's the main thing they hear, that may end up being what they like (at least maybe until they discover other stuff), this is probably true with everyone. It's why I got into '80s/early 90s music as a kid, because it's what I heard first. ;)

What ultimately led to hip-hop taking over popular music?

A) Grunge implosion: Hip-hop/rap got big around the same time grunge did (1991). Grunge's popularity took a major hit with Kurt's suicide (homicide?) in 1994. The writing on the walrus for grunge was Soundgarden's disbanding in 1997. Implosion = huge vacuum in music, and hip-hop took gained a lot of ground by default.

B) Tupac and Notorius BIG's deaths: Because a movement gets so much bigger with a few martyrs (unless it's a suicide, then the movement dies with its leader) ...

C) Eminem: Love him or hate him, this man turned on millions of people to rap, and the trickle down effect was that those people were also turned onto other music styles related to the genre.

D) MTV: For a while it was nearly impossible to distinguish them from BET. I like to blame Viacom for decent music's downfall much like people blame Bush for everything.

E) Boy band reinvention: N Stink, 98 Dee dee dees, Backdoor Boys, etc... in the late 90s we were flooded with this stuff (not the "Right Stuff", as NKotB sang about 10 years prior...). While most of this music wouldn't really qualify as hip-hop, crappy music again makes an inexplicable leap due to promotion of bands like these.

F) Lack of sustained, quality good rock music (iow, little competition): sure, Green Day (and some others) is still around, but a lot of what has passed as rock music in the past 10 years wouldn't have gotten past demo stage, let alone major recording label backing, 15+ years ago. We've seen the veterans retire (or die), yet nothing super good has stepped up to replace them. I don't expect another Led Zep, but that their concert last year drew over a million people to a raffle for 8k seats speaks volumes.

G) Perspective change: The minute image is more important than the music, when the music takes a back seat to dance moves, bling or other crap is when you can hear the hammer.. the hammer driving the final nail in the coffin...

There were many legitimately good hip hop songs that did promote a genre that *could* have been great.

Early 90s rap and hip-hop had much more interesting and complex lyrics and beats than the stuff we hear today has (there are always exceptions...). Whether or not this is because hip-hop music has gone downhill or the promotion of hip-hop music has gone downhill is a debateable matter for a later time.

One song in particular really describes hip hop today... funny thing is it came out in 1991:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGDiKw9jxbM&feature=related

"Hip-hop got turned into hit pop"
"Sell-outs run about like the measles"
"Why not take your top ten pop hit;
fix the music and make senseless rhymes fit?"

I'm of the opinion that great music runs in 15 year cycles... if this pans out, expect something great perhaps next year or in 2010.

PS: From an editor's viewpoint, I hate hip-hop. Nobody makes songs by themselves anymore,  it's always "so-and-so featuring so-and-so with...". Indexing these with any semblance of order is practically impossible.

Ant

Great points so far by just about everyone.

I agree "the album" seems like it died after about 2004 or early '05 (American Idiot, Hot Fuss and Kelly Clarkson's debut seemed like the last really big ones), and that might have something to do with why pop music in general isn't as inspired or diverse as before.

Yeah, I think TV is right too, about the '90s being more across the board. I actually can remember alot of older people who mildly liked grunge (even if the hair metal fans and some '80s people hated it, lol) and there was enough diversity to where if you didn't like hip hop you could've listened to current music and avoided it. It seems like older people liked Jon Secada alot, I had a teacher who liked Mariah too. There was alot of AC.

1995 seems like it was the first year hip hop STARTED getting closer to the state its in today, although of course lots of other music still co-existed with it. The '80s influence was totally gone, and that was when it was mainstream enough for white kids to like Tupac as much as they may have liked rock, dance or pop music. The transition wasn't totally complete until maybe 2003 though.

As far as why it has such a hold on the charts and influences other genres, I think it's just because it's seeped into the culture so much. The people who do like it are probably loyal fans, so the music industry thinks that's what kids want, so it has a chain effect. If that's the main thing they hear, that may end up being what they like (at least maybe until they discover other stuff), this is probably true with everyone. It's why I got into '80s/early 90s music as a kid, because it's what I heard first. ;)



Yeah, there was alot more variety in music in the '80s and '90s. Today, everthing just seems to be so derivative of rap, I mean it seems like every regular pop song that's come out in the last few years has at least a slight influence of rap in it(at least the ones that I've heard do).

I would also agree that rap didn't reach its peak of popularity until around 2003 or so. Rap seemed to actually be in a bit of slump in the late '90s and early '00s. Not that it wasn't popular, it just overshadowed by the "teen pop" fad of the era. It really exploded around the summer of 2003 though. At one point in the middle of '03, I think all 10 songs on Billboard's top 10 were rap songs.

I agree with what a lot of people have said here, especially midnite and sonikuu. Although I am only 22 and was not allowed to listen to rap/hip-hop growing up so I don't really "remember" this sequence but I can give my 2 cents on how I've seen rap evolve.

It's funny looking back when I was little and we weren't allowed to watch "Fresh Prince" because well, it was that evil rap music and it's associated with gangs.  Now you look back and Will Smith was one of the cleanest "rappers" out there.  (At least as far as I know, I'm still discovering more of the old school stuff).  Most old school rap (aka late 80's-early 90s) had really good lyrics and a somewhat positive message.  You're always gonna have some dirty lyrics no matter what genre you go. 

Then you had the clans of Tupac and Notorious B.I.G.  Increase of violence, drugs, and gang affiliation associated with their music.  I guess it made rap/hip-hop more popular among some populations but there was still some diversity out there like your rock music and dance hits.  I must say though, I do enjoy a lot of the hip-hop music from the mid 90's.  Although like I said there was a lot of negative messages there were still some really good songs like Tupac's "Keep Ya Head Up."  No matter what his lifestyle,  I still think Tupac was a very talented lyricist.  Point is at this time in rap music, you had more violence and drugs and sex but heck at least the lyrics were still meaningful in a way.

I guess I would agree with the "Puff Daddy" era really changing rap after Tupac and Biggie's deaths.  Though I think rap music REALLY started becoming where it is today with the introduction of 50 cent and then the invention of "krunk" by Lil Jon and also the Ying Yang Twins.  Unfortunately, I was a freshman in college and too busy enjoying the "party music."  And I think that is why this crap-rap has really dominated music.  It's like Chris Rock said: "You can give a lady the nastiest, most degrading, womanizing song in the world. But if it's got a beat she'll dance to it!"  So rap has now become about nasty sex and money, because it's all about the partying and the glamour and all that.

There are a few new rappers out there I'll listen to every now and then.  I like Kanye West when he doesn't steal old songs and speed them up.  But I basically just quit listening to new music around 05 when I started noticing that everything on the radio was whiny emo/screamo (which is another story within itself) or stupid rap music that was either about "rims" or "grills" or it was ripped off from an older song.

I'm hoping there will be better music within the next decade but I doubt it.  The next big thing will be emo rap. 8-P  lol

I agree with what a lot of people have said here, especially midnite and sonikuu. Although I am only 22 and was not allowed to listen to rap/hip-hop growing up so I don't really "remember" this sequence but I can give my 2 cents on how I've seen rap evolve.

It's funny looking back when I was little and we weren't allowed to watch "Fresh Prince" because well, it was that evil rap music and it's associated with gangs.  Now you look back and Will Smith was one of the cleanest "rappers" out there.  (At least as far as I know, I'm still discovering more of the old school stuff).  Most old school rap (aka late 80's-early 90s) had really good lyrics and a somewhat positive message.  You're always gonna have some dirty lyrics no matter what genre you go. 

Then you had the clans of Tupac and Notorious B.I.G.  Increase of violence, drugs, and gang affiliation associated with their music.  I guess it made rap/hip-hop more popular among some populations but there was still some diversity out there like your rock music and dance hits.  I must say though, I do enjoy a lot of the hip-hop music from the mid 90's.  Although like I said there was a lot of negative messages there were still some really good songs like Tupac's "Keep Ya Head Up."  No matter what his lifestyle,  I still think Tupac was a very talented lyricist.  Point is at this time in rap music, you had more violence and drugs and sex but heck at least the lyrics were still meaningful in a way.

I guess I would agree with the "Puff Daddy" era really changing rap after Tupac and Biggie's deaths.  Though I think rap music REALLY started becoming where it is today with the introduction of 50 cent and then the invention of "krunk" by Lil Jon and also the Ying Yang Twins.  Unfortunately, I was a freshman in college and too busy enjoying the "party music."  And I think that is why this crap-rap has really dominated music.  It's like Chris Rock said: "You can give a lady the nastiest, most degrading, womanizing song in the world. But if it's got a beat she'll dance to it!"  So rap has now become about nasty sex and money, because it's all about the partying and the glamour and all that.

There are a few new rappers out there I'll listen to every now and then.  I like Kanye West when he doesn't steal old songs and speed them up.  But I basically just quit listening to new music around 05 when I started noticing that everything on the radio was whiny emo/screamo (which is another story within itself) or stupid rap music that was either about "rims" or "grills" or it was ripped off from an older song.

I'm hoping there will be better music within the next decade but I doubt it.  The next big thing will be emo rap. 8-P  lol


Already happened last year with the Gym Class Heroes.....  ::)

Already happened last year with the Gym Class Heroes.....  ::)


Ok there you see: I wouldn't know  :D  lol  I was probably the last person on earth to know what Soulja boy was too  lol

Yeah, there was alot more variety in music in the '80s and '90s. Today, everthing just seems to be so derivative of rap, I mean it seems like every regular pop song that's come out in the last few years has at least a slight influence of rap in it(at least the ones that I've heard do).

I would also agree that rap didn't reach its peak of popularity until around 2003 or so. Rap seemed to actually be in a bit of slump in the late '90s and early '00s. Not that it wasn't popular, it just overshadowed by the "teen pop" fad of the era. It really exploded around the summer of 2003 though. At one point in the middle of '03, I think all 10 songs on Billboard's top 10 were rap songs.
Yeah but Teen-pop in 2001-2002 wasn;t even as popular as it was in 1999-2000.

Yeah but Teen-pop in 2001-2002 wasn;t even as popular as it was in 1999-2000.


In 01 it was still pretty popular, by 02 it was done.

In 01 it was still pretty popular, by 02 it was done.
What I remember most about 2001 was Craig David, Alicia Keys, the band "Staind" and not teen-pop.

From a look at the charts in 2001, Teen Pop was still around and got an occasional hit here and there, but its presence was clearly diminishing.  Teen Pop was still very popular in 2001 though.  NSync's Celebrity album sold 1.9 million in the first week, compared to 2.4 million for No Strings Attached (the highest number of albums sold in the first week, and with the state of album sales now, it will hold that title forever) and O-Town's "All Or Nothing" hit #3, making them one of the last boy bands to score a genuine hit.

By the Fall though, despite recent successes by NSync and Britney Spears, Teen Pop was clearly nearing its end.  I remember it was still being acceptable to like NSync and Teen Pop when school started in 2001, but by 2002, you were laughed at if you liked them.  While singers who started off as Teen Pop, like Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears, remained popular, they did so by changing their sound to become more "mature".

Overall though, 2001 was very different from 2000.  Take a look at the number one hits of each year and you'll see the difference.

2000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_100_number-one_hits_of_2000_%28USA%29
2001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_100_number-one_hits_of_2001_%28USA%29

Also, to be honest, the Rap explosion really started in 2002, although it didn't become truly dominant in 2003.  A quick look at the the #1 hits of 2002 will show you that Nelly and Eminem had an extremely good year.

2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_100_number-one_hits_of_2002_%28USA%29

If you listen to teen pop in the later years, you can hear that it draws influence from hip-hop music as far as the beats and repetitive synth riffs go.

From a look at the charts in 2001, Teen Pop was still around and got an occasional hit here and there, but its presence was clearly diminishing.  Teen Pop was still very popular in 2001 though.  NSync's Celebrity album sold 1.9 million in the first week, compared to 2.4 million for No Strings Attached (the highest number of albums sold in the first week, and with the state of album sales now, it will hold that title forever) and O-Town's "All Or Nothing" hit #3, making them one of the last boy bands to score a genuine hit.

By the Fall though, despite recent successes by NSync and Britney Spears, Teen Pop was clearly nearing its end.  I remember it was still being acceptable to like NSync and Teen Pop when school started in 2001, but by 2002, you were laughed at if you liked them.  While singers who started off as Teen Pop, like Justin Timberlake and Britney Spears, remained popular, they did so by changing their sound to become more "mature".

Overall though, 2001 was very different from 2000.  Take a look at the number one hits of each year and you'll see the difference.

2000: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_100_number-one_hits_of_2000_%28USA%29
2001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_100_number-one_hits_of_2001_%28USA%29

Also, to be honest, the Rap explosion really started in 2002, although it didn't become truly dominant in 2003.  A quick look at the the #1 hits of 2002 will show you that Nelly and Eminem had an extremely good year.

2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_100_number-one_hits_of_2002_%28USA%29


NSYNC was huge in 01 but Celebrity was in fact a different sounding album from the older albums, Meat is correct that teen pop was morphing more into an "urban pop" sound at this time. You had stuff more like J. Lo, and Destiny's Child in 2001. I remember Shaggy was just huge at that time and Janet's All For You album had numerous hits. Of course there was all your Nu Metal and post grunge which was owning the rock scene...tv mentioned Staind, you also had Fuel, Adema, Incubus, P.O.D., Disturbed. There was some true teen pop still around in 01 like S Club 7, O Town, and Mandy Moore...but it was definitely going down in popularity. Murder Inc. was the dominant hip-hop label in 01 - 02, man all those Ashanti/Ja Rule hits they were just all over the place... All that being said I still would say it was a more divided music scene until sometime in 2003 when crunk and dirty south invaded and seemingly took over popular music.

Yeah but Teen-pop in 2001-2002 wasn;t even as popular as it was in 1999-2000.



As I recall, "teen pop" was still very popular in 2001, and was declining by 2002 and completely gone by 2003. I could be wrong though. I was in high school by then, and it was mostly the middle schoolers that were still into it, so I'm not really sure what they thought about it by then.

Personally...I don't trust the charts.  ???

I really don't understand what's happened to pop culture.  Why do these kids want to keep listening to this stuff and aspiring to be like these rap stars?  Is it because we're so morally bankrupt that there's nobody else to look up to?  Is it because the radio only plays what the labels want you to hear?  Who knows.

(By the way, I'm new here.  Hello.)

Personally...I don't trust the charts.   ???

I really don't understand what's happened to pop culture.  Why do these kids want to keep listening to this stuff and aspiring to be like these rap stars?  Is it because we're so morally bankrupt that there's nobody else to look up to?  Is it because the radio only plays what the labels want you to hear?  Who knows.

(By the way, I'm new here.  Hello.)


Both!

Midnite gave an interesting retrospective of R&B and Hip-Hop. R&B is a by-product of soul from the 60s/70s. Hip-Hop was a more recent thing that I believed started when rap became mainstream around the late 70s/early 80s. Hip-Hop back then was very user friendly, dealt with real life issues and you could enjoy the music too.

What is interesting is Melle Mel was the singer of 'The Message' back in the early 80s not Grandmaster Flash (neither he nor the other members of The Furious Five were interested). Grandmaster Flash was also credited for but didn't feature on the song 'White Lines' either - he left the record label a year before. Melle Mel was the first rapper to call himself an MC and 'Cowboy' from the Furious Five coined the term 'hip-hop' after teasing a friend who joined the army by scat-singing 'hip . . . hop' to the soldiers marches.

Coolio is the one that annoys me the most because he rapped a load of rubbish over the beautiful classical piece 'Pachebell's Canon' in his song 'I'll C U when you get there'. The rapping was so fast and disjointed that, for all I cared, he could have been singing about corned beef.

For all it's 'evolution', the main basis of hip-hop still remains; materialism, having a good time, getting loads of women and drug-abuse (whether that be for or against).

And what does 'Fat Man Scoop' mean?

^ That's true. I have to sometimes remind myself how long rap has really been around for. I think in its early stage (1979-1985) when it was more underground, stuff like "Rappers Delight" and "The Message" were more of a close cousin to disco and funk, just a little edgier.

In the second half of the '80s and around 1990, it was more suburban party rap that anyone could've liked, but tended to still be dance music more than anything (i.e. Will Smith, Hammer, even the Beastie Boys back in the day, although they were harder edged). It started getting gangsta in 1992ish and that era died when Tupac and Biggie did, I'd say.

I'm not a big rap/hip hop fan though, so some people might be able to comment in more detail.

^ That's true. I have to sometimes remind myself how long rap has really been around for. I think in its early stage (1979-1985) when it was more underground, stuff like "Rappers Delight" and "The Message" were more of a close cousin to disco and funk, just a little edgier.

In the second half of the '80s and around 1990, it was more suburban party rap that anyone could've liked, but tended to still be dance music more than anything (i.e. Will Smith, Hammer, even the Beastie Boys back in the day, although they were harder edged). It started getting gangsta in 1992ish and that era died when Tupac and Biggie did, I'd say.

I'm not a big rap/hip hop fan though, so some people might be able to comment in more detail.


You had quite a bit of rap in the late 1980s actually, like Public Enemy, NWA, Ice-T, LL Cool J, Ice Cube, Run DMC. As you said lot of party stuff also including Young MC, Salt N Pepa, Tone Loc on the pop charts.

^ That's true. I have to sometimes remind myself how long rap has really been around for. I think in its early stage (1979-1985) when it was more underground, stuff like "Rappers Delight" and "The Message" were more of a close cousin to disco and funk, just a little edgier.

In the second half of the '80s and around 1990, it was more suburban party rap that anyone could've liked, but tended to still be dance music more than anything (i.e. Will Smith, Hammer, even the Beastie Boys back in the day, although they were harder edged). It started getting gangsta in 1992ish and that era died when Tupac and Biggie did, I'd say.

I'm not a big rap/hip hop fan though, so some people might be able to comment in more detail.


k.

A good point. The actual topics haven't changed much over the years, just the style of music in which these topics take place.

^ That's true. I have to sometimes remind myself how long rap has really been around for. I think in its early stage (1979-1985) when it was more underground, stuff like "Rappers Delight" and "The Message" were more of a close cousin to disco and funk, just a little edgier.

In the second half of the '80s and around 1990, it was more suburban party rap that anyone could've liked, but tended to still be dance music more than anything (i.e. Will Smith, Hammer, even the Beastie Boys back in the day, although they were harder edged). It started getting gangsta in 1992ish and that era died when Tupac and Biggie did, I'd say.

I'm not a big rap/hip hop fan though, so some people might be able to comment in more detail.



k.

A good point. The actual topics haven't changed much over the years, just the style of music in which these topics take place.



Both good points. Rap sort of "broke out" as a genre in the late '80s, and at the time was pretty much divided two ways. The more "party rap" styled type(think "Wild Thing" by Ton Loc or "Fight For Your Right" by the Beasties) or the more serious songs like "Fight The Power".

I do agree that, in a nutshell, rap just isn't as good as it used to be. I like some old-school rap songs, and I really do believe the whole genre has taken a backwards step since the explosion of the "gangsta" genre in the mid '90s.

When you think about it, modern day artists the likes of Master P, D4L, and Jibbs make even Vanilla Ice sound good 8-P