it's hard to believe, but it's probably gonna happen some time. with all the diseases, and weapons we posses, there's no way we'll live forevor. plus, a few billion years from now, are sun is gonna explode. (not that we'll live that long.

Yes.  And we are hastening the inevitable.
:o

Indiividually, yes.

Eventually...

Yes...but we'll all be dead when it happens.
:-\\

Yes...but we'll all be dead when it happens.
:-\\


what? did i miss something? did you just say we'll be dead when we die?

Yes...but we'll all be dead when it happens.
:-\\
Probably, long gone dead?

what? did i miss something? did you just say we'll be dead when we die?



Nope.  That's what he said. 

what? did i miss something? did you just say we'll be dead when we die?


He means that none of us have to worry about this because we'll all be long gone anyways by the time it happens.

He means that none of us have to worry about this because we'll all be long gone anyways by the time it happens.
We I certainly do not wish to be there when it all happens.

Sure. I just hope my descendants can get through.

He means that none of us have to worry about this because we'll all be long gone anyways by the time it happens.


oh, you mean we as in our generation? i thought he meant the human race will be dead when it dies. i was thinking "way to state the obvious!"

Not if we round up all the Liberals now. It's a well known fact that everybody to the left of Herman Goering is a direct threat to the security of the earth.

Not if we round up all the Liberals now. It's a well known fact that everybody to the left of Herman Goering is a direct threat to the security of the earth.

Or Herman Munster for that matter.

Or Herman Munster for that matter.



;)  Herman typifies what I'm alluding to.

Sure it will.  The meek shall inherit the earth. 

But assuming the meek don't blow us away before we figure out how to do it, the rest of us will download our brains into robotic bodies and head for the stars.

Will the dolphins take over?

Will the dolphins take over?



What a beautiful thought.  Dolphins jumping through rainbows into crystal blue water.  Kinda like a Lisa Frank folder.

Will the dolphins take over?


What a beautiful thought.  Dolphins jumping through rainbows into crystal blue water.  Kinda like a Lisa Frank folder.


LOL!

We probably will at some point. But I'm guessing it'll be a slow process and probably in ways we couldn't predict now (Dinosaurs didn't become extinct overnight either).

The sun will burn out eventually, but maybe everything will be solar powered by then.

P.S. This is starting to get depressing. ;)

What a beautiful thought.  Dolphins jumping through rainbows into crystal blue water.  Kinda like a Lisa Frank folder.


So long, so long, and THANKS! for all the fiiiiiiiiiish...

(I still preferred the BBC TV series, but the opening credits to the HHGTTG movie more than made up for its flaws :)

We probably will at some point. But I'm guessing it'll be a slow process and probably in ways we couldn't predict now (Dinosaurs didn't become extinct overnight either).

The sun will burn out eventually, but maybe everything will be solar powered by then.

P.S. This is starting to get depressing. ;)


stars don't "burn out" they expand and then blow up. i they're big enough (which our sun isn't) then it makes a black hole. the sun would eat the earth.

Sure it will.  The meek shall inherit the earth. 

But assuming the meek don't blow us away before we figure out how to do it, the rest of us will download our brains into robotic bodies and head for the stars.


The meek shall inherit nothing.

The meek shall inherit nothing.


Damn straight son!

What a beautiful thought.  Dolphins jumping through rainbows into crystal blue water.  Kinda like a Lisa Frank folder.

Sigh.  You know what's going to happen?  The dolphins will just evolve larger frontal lobes and thumbs.  Before you know it, it'll be atomic bombs all over again.  In the end, the cockroaches and the mosquitos will rule the planet.  They're well on their way as it is.
::)

Sigh.  You know what's going to happen?  The dolphins will just evolve larger frontal lobes and thumbs.  Before you know it, it'll be atomic bombs all over again.  In the end, the cockroaches and the mosquitos will rule the planet.  They're well on their way as it is.
::)



Don't ruin my Lisa Frank folder.  Thanks.

Sigh.  You know what's going to happen?  The dolphins will just evolve larger frontal lobes and thumbs.  Before you know it, it'll be atomic bombs all over again.  In the end, the cockroaches and the mosquitos will rule the planet.  They're well on their way as it is.
::)


You sayin us roaches is stoopid.

I oughta come up dere and kick yo azz ya noo englad joik!

I personally would love to be alive when the end of the world happens.

I personally would love to be alive when the end of the world happens.


yeah, same here. but only if it's some kinda catastrophic event, like a meteor the size of mars crashing down to earth. every body would be hiding in their houses (a useless atempt)but i'd just stand outside and watch. it would be beautiful. that's kinda like how whenever there's a tornado watch near where i live (i live in ohio, so the places near us get sirens like oonce a week durring the summer) i always kinda hope it'll hit near where i live. just so i can see it. i've always wanted to see a tornado. ut yeah, i'd like to see the catastrophic end of the human race. and yeah, cockroaches will takeover. :\'(

yeah, same here. but only if it's some kinda catastrophic event, like a meteor the size of mars crashing down to earth. every body would be hiding in their houses (a useless atempt)but i'd just stand outside and watch. it would be beautiful. that's kinda like how whenever there's a tornado watch near where i live (i live in ohio, so the places near us get sirens like oonce a week durring the summer) i always kinda hope it'll hit near where i live. just so i can see it. i've always wanted to see a tornado. ut yeah, i'd like to see the catastrophic end of the human race. and yeah, cockroaches will takeover. :\'(


;D

I always said, if the nukes came flying, I'd be out of my house so fast.. I'd try and get right underneath one and have it hit me on the head. Game Over.

not sure, but that's a good question for God, don't you think?

i think the human race will survive, but we're going to find out industrial scale society is unsustainable. it might have been possible to engineer a sustainable society if we'd started a couple decades ago, but the conservatives kept labeling such endeavors faggy and soft-hearted and now it's probably too late to fix what they've done.

we're gonna run out of oil, yeah? and if you point this out, the right accuses you of trying to ruin the economy. therefore, the problem will not get fixed.

i think the human race will survive, but we're going to find out industrial scale society is unsustainable. it might have been possible to engineer a sustainable society if we'd started a couple decades ago, but the conservatives kept labeling such endeavors faggy and soft-hearted and now it's probably too late to fix what they've done.

we're gonna run out of oil, yeah? and if you point this out, the right accuses you of trying to ruin the economy. therefore, the problem will not get fixed.


Actually, even the religious right has started to accept the fact that sustainable resources are the future.

i think the human race will survive, but we're going to find out industrial scale society is unsustainable. it might have been possible to engineer a sustainable society if we'd started a couple decades ago, but the conservatives kept labeling such endeavors faggy and soft-hearted and now it's probably too late to fix what they've done.

we're gonna run out of oil, yeah? and if you point this out, the right accuses you of trying to ruin the economy. therefore, the problem will not get fixed.

Good point, but why are we assuming we humans are even going to be on this planet when the sun gives the big hiccup?

Humans are notorious for expansion, hunting for stuff we've already used up here...as soon as someone finds oil, gold, or diamonds on another planet solar system, we're there bringing the misery and troubles we had on earth, just that earth will be gone...but us humans will still be around I'm sure.

Actually, even the religious right has started to accept the fact that sustainable resources are the future.


yes.

trouble is, switching the incredibly massive degree of energy consumption we engage in now into renewable resources will be (well, would have been) the most massive feat of engineering this race has ever seen. if we wait until we start to show symptoms of fossil fuel depletion to get started, it's probably too late. do you think we could have mobilized for world war ii while the oil was running out? well, take the energy requirements of that and multiply it by 10.

i'm more than happy to be wrong but i think it's too late. we already kissed the ass of the far right for too long.

yes.

trouble is, switching the incredibly massive degree of energy consumption we engage in now into renewable resources will be (well, would have been) the most massive feat of engineering this race has ever seen. if we wait until we start to show symptoms of fossil fuel depletion to get started, it's probably too late. do you think we could have mobilized for world war ii while the oil was running out? well, take the energy requirements of that and multiply it by 10.

i'm more than happy to be wrong but i think it's too late. we already kissed the ass of the far right for too long.


Seems that Clinton had 2 terms to do a lot...


Regardless - I don't think it's too late. I think we have however reached a critical point and certain things have changed now.

Seems that Clinton had 2 terms to do a lot...

yeah, like dodge the obstructionist right while they sniffed his boxers and investigated whitewater nonstop, ya mean? ;D

as for too late, i guess we'll see.

we're gonna run out of oil, yeah? and if you point this out, the right accuses you of trying to ruin the economy. therefore, the problem will not get fixed.


i disagree. yeah, we'll run out of oil soon, but california is already starting the trend of hydrogen cars. there aren't a whole lot of hydrogen stations yet, but it's making substantial progress. the terminator i.e. arnold swartzeneggar (yeah, i know i spelled it wrong) is very supportive of the new car. at first i thought he was just a joke, a gimmick (c'mon, a movie star gon governer?) but it seems he's doing an alright job. but man, if Al Gore won the election (which he actually did, but i'd rather not get into that) he would have saved us all! but yeah, we humans are procrastinators (and some of us mangy republicans), we'll act, but we'll wait until the last second to do so.


not sure, but that's a good question for God, don't you think?


no, i don't. i don't believe in such ficticious entities. 

well, what you have to think about is the advantages of fossil fuels -- carbon-based energy sources that have had literally hundreds of millions of years to become incredibly concentrated. in order to make up for the advantages that oil provides, an alternative will have to provide a number of benefits, not merely its ability to be burned for forward motion. it has to be stable, compact and easily transportable -- none of which is true of hydrogen, which takes up a great deal of volume and is highly volatile (remember the hindenburg?) -- oil you can load into a tank and drive across the country on the back of a tanker truck. you really gonna do that with hydrogen? you're gonna have a string of charred bodies from here to sacramento, and one truck will bear, what? one tenth of the energy available in an oil transport?

naw, hydrogen is not going to do it. you don't just need the energy, you need to be able to move it -- fast and efficiently, in the same quantities we move energy now.

next?

They should make cars that run on garbage, like the Mr. Fusion in Back to the Future Part II.

phew. glad we fixed that problem! ;D

biofuels have the same problem of being not nearly as concentrated as fossil fuels. plus, the only reason they exist in such vast quantities they exist today is because of the fossil fuel economy that allows us to corral livestock by the millions and accumulate all their waste material as a byproduct while we slaughter them to make big macs. once the oil runs out, biofuel runs out. everything runs on oil, bro.

How about nuclear power?  The DeLorean was part nukee.

nukes actually have a fighting chance. the french are way ahead of the rest of us on nuclear power. (and don't get me wrong, i don't LIKE nuclear power, but the more i read about our prospects for replacing fossil fuels the more freaked out i get and frankly, nukes are one of the few things that'll pull our fat out of the fire...)

if we basically started building nuclear power plants in massive quantities before the fossil fuels needed to basically provide the industrial might needed to construct the power plants in the first place, we MIGHT be able to replace a lot of what we use now with nuclear power plants. it'll probably work better than hydrogen and biofuels in the short run, but industrially it'll be a nightmare -- not in terms of spotted owl habitats, but in terms of, after a couple of generations we're gonna be hard pressed to find decent drinkable groundwater; nuclear waste is basically like used up solar flesh, nuclear reactions were not intended to occur in places where organisms live. it's supposed to shine on them from 100 million miles away. it's inherently, incorrigibly toxic.

so i think it might work as a stopgap but at a great price to our kids and grandkids (i know the right's pretty much indifferent to that, but for the rest of us, it's something to worry about...) and there are certain things you can't do with nuclear power at the moment, like run large machinery such as cranes and earthmovers. i'm not aware of the sorts of mammoth fuel consumers like that -- or like tanks, etc. -- that can very easily be switched over to nuclear power, which as far as i'm aware can basically be used to charge electric batteries. which gets us back to the problem of, how easy is it to store and move a certain amount of energy that takes up a small amount of space? where that's concerned, even nuclear power can't hold a candle (sorry) to the glory of the tanker truck. for concentration and ease of transport, a tanker truck beats everything we've been able to come up with by an order of magnitude. doesn't mean we'll all be living in chaos, but just for the transportability issue, and the problem of s**tin' where we eat, nuclear power will have powerful ramifications on our basic lifestyle if that's what we decide to go with./

Yeah, you've hit the nail on the head in regards to my personal objections against nuclear power as a commonplace source of energy.

Thinking in terms of how energy is created, it's basically turning a turbine of magnets around a coil of wires to create currents of electricity.  What other ways of turning the turbine can you think of that doesn't involve nuking of water or burning of coal to create the force necessary to drive a turbine?  Hydroelectric and wind power have their issues, and geothermal is too area-sensitive.

Also RE: Hydrogen...guess what you gotta do to get elemental hydrogen?  Gotta split water...and where you gonna get the energy for that...?  Actually you can probably use a catalytic reaction that bubbles some form of hydrocarbon across a graphite or palladium surface and releases hydrogen as well, that's a little bit trickier.

'Tis a futile cycle.

honestly, i'm optimistic about wind in the long run, but population will have to ease up first because great swaths of area will have to be given over to it. nuclear, never. you have to think, what works over many, many generations? and it's definitely not nuclear, which is just inherently, ridiculously entropic. but in terms of short-term energy yield, it's like snorting a big ole 8 ball of coke, which is why i thinik if we keep being stupid (and i personally think we've already been too stupid for too long), we might need it as a stopgap.

i was actually reading in "science" some very cool stuff that i'd no idea about, like, these new solar collectors -- they're like umbrellas, but they concentrate MASSIVE amounts of energy in a tiny spot. they came up with some new kind of collecting material that can take the mammoth heat this thing generates, so only recently has it become conceivable to gather a lot of solar energy in a small space. used to be it would fry the collector. but would even this thing work to substitute for what we've been getting from sucking on the dinosaur teat that the planet's been storing up since 200 million b.c.? not likely.

no, the planet you're looking at, with six billion partyin' mofos on it (well, okay, most of them are miserable, but six billion people who can even live at all)? no way, that's not the wave of the future. i might be wrong, and like i say, i'm begging for someone to prove i am, but humanity right now is growing over the edge of the petri dish. i don't mean to sound like davey but there's gonna be a reckoning. it won't be a value judgment though, it's just gonna be... reality. gas is running out and there's nothing else that can do what gas does.

More efficient solid/wet and solar cells.  That's about all you can hope for if you don't want to go nuclear.  The problem is that the solid/wet cells are more like storage devices and you still gotta generate the energy to be stored some other way.  Can't get something for nothing, unfortunately.

Would be really nice if engineers could figure out a way to translate the photosynthetic pathway into a really efficient energy device.  Guess Nature really is smarter than Man after all.

or humanity is more easily seduced. i mean, i hate to keep bashing the right wing, but i honestly DO think they're going to drag us down. for the next two decades, as these problems come to a head, they're going to alternate between blaming liberals and insisting that, as god's chosen entities, they surely could not have been visited with such a tragic misfortune as to actually run out of energy.

okay.

obviously, my hatred for the right is fairly unbridled at the moment. but i do, in fact, believe that they're living evidence that the human race is not yet meant to prosper in its current form.

Let me try to organize my thoughts and feel free to beat me over the head if what I say doesn't make sense (sorta high on cold meds right now):

1.  If we take the socialist approach to try to save the world (as this thread implies we must do) then we can dispel with the social Darwinism but run the risk of MANY people not pulling their weight and dragging down the resources anyway.  Not to mention all the bureaucracy over who to help and who doesn't need help and all the people complaining that they're not helped enough yada yada yada.

2.  If we take a purely Darwinist approach, (which I assume is what most Republicans/conservatives are blamed for doing) then all the rich people continue to burn fuel like they were quaffing oh-so-many Diet Cokes and we're screwed anyway, although rich people get screwed less.

3.  Which means we have to convince the rich people that being all green and stuff is good (i.e. Hollywood buying hybrid cars, low-flow toilets) and then get them to spearhead an affordable transition for everyone.

I don't believe that the right is trying to say that you must live as they do in order to be truly American or whatever, but I think the underlying fear is that to make the drastic energy changes that have been suggested prior would be incredibly expensive and require lots of people on this planet who hate each other to get along and come up with a uniform plan.  Which is all well and good, but at the end of the day, you still can't tell people to stop f**king.

Well, I really shouldn't say that, because I procreated.  But he'll make something of himself or I'll be a sad panda.

well, i guess i'm not sure what i should say. if we find a solution, we'll have to get along in such a fashion so that political distinctions between left and right are no longer entirely operative. and i'm going to have to go ahead and turn a tin ear to irony and say that i think that the right wing will send us all to our graves before they decide that cooperative effort is what's called for.

i mean, straight up, bro. look how they've conducted themselves. they'll drive this car off the cliff before they share the steering wheel. it's what they've been doing for the last six years and i see no reason for them to change.

I do not think either of the major parties is interested in what the common American-er thinks anymore, which is why I hope a strong third party emerges and scares the bejeezus out of them.  Hopefully with the division in powers they'll force a stalemate for the time being so they can't screw much more up.

DUDE.

just tell me where to place my vote.

i scour the ballot every time for a third party. occasionally i get some luck but usually it's just the same menagerie.

*Sigh* The sun will eventually explode, ending all life of any species. So yes, we will all die.

yeah, like dodge the obstructionist right while they sniffed his boxers and investigated whitewater nonstop, ya mean? ;D

as for too late, i guess we'll see.


I hardly consider the Newt led group 'the right'. More like 'the bizare.'

honestly, i'm optimistic about wind in the long run, but population will have to ease up first because great swaths of area will have to be given over to it. nuclear, never. you have to think, what works over many, many generations? and it's definitely not nuclear, which is just inherently, ridiculously entropic. but in terms of short-term energy yield, it's like snorting a big ole 8 ball of coke, which is why i thinik if we keep being stupid (and i personally think we've already been too stupid for too long), we might need it as a stopgap.

i was actually reading in "science" some very cool stuff that i'd no idea about, like, these new solar collectors -- they're like umbrellas, but they concentrate MASSIVE amounts of energy in a tiny spot. they came up with some new kind of collecting material that can take the mammoth heat this thing generates, so only recently has it become conceivable to gather a lot of solar energy in a small space. used to be it would fry the collector. but would even this thing work to substitute for what we've been getting from sucking on the dinosaur teat that the planet's been storing up since 200 million b.c.? not likely.

no, the planet you're looking at, with six billion partyin' mofos on it (well, okay, most of them are miserable, but six billion people who can even live at all)? no way, that's not the wave of the future. i might be wrong, and like i say, i'm begging for someone to prove i am, but humanity right now is growing over the edge of the petri dish. i don't mean to sound like davey but there's gonna be a reckoning. it won't be a value judgment though, it's just gonna be... reality. gas is running out and there's nothing else that can do what gas does.


The main problem is that there are 6 billion people. This is why I refuse to support those charity appeals. "OOohh there are people dieing in Africa." 'Yeah, I know, they live in Africa, the land can't support them, let the poor bastards die.'

Solar Power is the future man. I just negotiated a deal that makes my Fathers company a registered and accredited fitter and supplier of solar energy panels for 2 large regional companies. Through this I've learnt a lot about solar power.
Did you know, in around one hour, the Atlantic ocean soaks up enough solar energy to power the US and Canada for more than a year?
There are many houses now that actually contribute power to the grid. They create more power than they use. Installing solar panels costs around $2000 if you do it yourself, now, the tax the government claims from gasoline is what.. about 150%? 200%? more.. how much of this could be invested in tax incentives, grants to encourage private citizens to do this.
It's kind of like double glazing in the 80's. First of all, the rich did it, then those frugal savers who knew it'd save them money in the long run and had the capital to have it done, then it was the Jone's'... then the rest of the street had to keep up. Within 15 years almost everybody had double glazing.
Now, imagine if this was something that not only would save you say.. 10-15% on your heating bill every year, but could in theory save you.. 50-60..100% of your power bill every year.
The small town my Grandfather lives in, out in the country.. even out there, I know 2 of his neighbours are self sufficient in their energy needs. They have solar panels on the roof, recyc on the rain water, small wind turbines on the roof.

Hell, even Dubyah's ranch is self sufficient as far as energy is concerned.

Oh.. and yes Mike, there is gonna be a reckoning. Of course there is, not to be all despondant and depressing but we are heading in to a highly volatile period in the history of civilisation. It's cyclical, we go through these things every few hundred or so years, granted, the last one was the First and Second world wars, not that long ago..

See, I like to jump on the 'Blame the President' band wagon, but the fact of the matter is, no matter who was in control, we'd be heading towards the same inevitable conclusion - "When Victory is to survive and death is defeat!"

I do not think either of the major parties is interested in what the common American-er thinks anymore, which is why I hope a strong third party emerges and scares the bejeezus out of them.  Hopefully with the division in powers they'll force a stalemate for the time being so they can't screw much more up.


The New American Nazi Uber Party Party?

The New American Nazi Uber Party Party?


I'll destroy that party myself.

I'll destroy that party myself.


Let me make a small change.


The New Uber Party Party... just.. have.. an uber party.

Let me make a small change.


The New Uber Party Party... just.. have.. an uber party.


That's better.

That's better.


I'd rather have the - Sensible Persons Party for Economic Reconstruction, Welfare Dissolution and Communist Extermination.

I'd rather have the - Sensible Persons Party for Economic Reconstruction, Welfare Dissolution and Communist Extermination.


Extermination is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad...although if it's Communists I guess it's not that bad.

Extermination is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad...although if it's Communists I guess it's not that bad.


Right. They're not people.

*Sigh* The sun will eventually explode, ending all life of any species. So yes, we will all die.
http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/content/articles/070212fi_fiction_levi

i put this up on the door in my office. it's so... beautiful.

Don't blame me.  I've been voting  Scorched Earth Party since before it was legal.

Scorched Earth '08.  Because nothing satisfies like clubbing some moron to death with a lead pipe.

Don't blame me.  I've been voting  Scorched Earth Party since before it was legal.

Scorched Earth '08.  Because nothing satisfies like clubbing some moron to death with a lead pipe.
sounds a bit like the Voluntary Human Extinction movement.

http://www.vhemt.org/

well, what you have to think about is the advantages of fossil fuels -- carbon-based energy sources that have had literally hundreds of millions of years to become incredibly concentrated. in order to make up for the advantages that oil provides, an alternative will have to provide a number of benefits, not merely its ability to be burned for forward motion. it has to be stable, compact and easily transportable -- none of which is true of hydrogen, which takes up a great deal of volume and is highly volatile (remember the hindenburg?) -- oil you can load into a tank and drive across the country on the back of a tanker truck. you really gonna do that with hydrogen? you're gonna have a string of charred bodies from here to sacramento, and one truck will bear, what? one tenth of the energy available in an oil transport?

naw, hydrogen is not going to do it. you don't just need the energy, you need to be able to move it -- fast and efficiently, in the same quantities we move energy now.

next?


but the only reason we need such good oil transportation is because oil canonly be found in certain places, while hydrogen can be made by man. maybe the hydrogen stations cold make their own?

but the only reason we need such good oil transportation is because oil canonly be found in certain places, while hydrogen can be made by man. maybe the hydrogen stations cold make their own?
well, i think in general, more local-centric engineering is going to be key, so in a way i agree with you. i don't necessarily think that'll save hydrogen, but whatever power sources we (or, i should say, they -- davey's right, 6 billion worldwide population is way too many people, that number, sadly, is, um, going to go down) but in the future, power and food supplies will be much more frequently locally supplied than they are now.

nukes actually have a fighting chance. the french are way ahead of the rest of us on nuclear power. (and don't get me wrong, i don't LIKE nuclear power, but the more i read about our prospects for replacing fossil fuels the more freaked out i get and frankly, nukes are one of the few things that'll pull our fat out of the fire...)


first of all, don't call them nukes. we're talking about nuclear power, not bombs. and second of all, i'd say chirnoble has probably taught the human race a lesson. i would promote nuclear power if only we could come up with a safer way to produce it. the problem is, in a nuclear power station, if you make a mistake, the problem will last for thousands of years.

i'm not really talking about meltdowns, i'm talking about waste. which is a deeply unsolvable problem. straight up, that stuff is not meant to exist on earth.