http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting.ap/index.html?section=cnn_us&ref=google

Oh my God, this is terrible.  A 32-year-old milkman with a grudge against little girls lays siege to a one-room schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, PA.  He orders all the boys and the adults out and opens fire on helpless Amish schoolgirls.  Then the maniac turns the gun on himself.  He said earlier he was "angry at God."  I suppose God is pleased as punch with him!  There has been another spate of school shootings in the news this past week.  This one I find much more horrifying than the others!

  Caught this on the radio after work... 

  I don't think anyone can deny that there is now a "School Shooter Syndrome" that's now present in society.  Even when it dosen't involve an actual student, the school is evolving as the "holy grail" of the target with maximum social impact...

  Before there was the "school shooting", what destructive form of expression did the "school shooter" take?  Drugs?  Suicide?  "Regular" crime?  Just live with it until they got over it..?

  They also definitely run in clusters.  It can't be coincidence, and shooters must be inspired by the media coverage of other school shootings to act groove ;) on...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting.ap/index.html?section=cnn_us&ref=google

Oh my God, this is terrible.  A 32-year-old milkman with a grudge against little girls lays siege to a one-room schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, PA.  He orders all the boys and the adults out and opens fire on helpless Amish schoolgirls.


  Dude, according to reports the three little girls were first bound and then shot in the head, execution-style... :(

this guy is one sick effer.  What a horrible tragedy....and to target people that mainly keep to themselves and usually don't cause much harm in society....what a sad shame. :(

Am watching it on our morning news now and its just awful. What could have gone thru those little girls minds as they were tied up and shot like that - one after another.

As someone who has Amish friends, this is such a shock.  Why a one-room school house filled with kids who wouldn't hurt a fly.  Hating God, well tough sheesh!  The Amish are pacifist which obviously makes them easy pickings for assholes like that guy.  :\'(

I just saw on the news that another child died early this morning.   I think that brings it to 5. This is such a tragedy, it just makes me feel sick.

Terrible, terrible tragedy...made even worse when there's children of this age involved...

This guy went insane. My question is how do we recognize these individuals before they can commit such attrocities?

I kept tabs on this all day yesterday and now wake up to find two more innocents have died. Like Max said, I highly doubt God is pleased with this son of a bitch right now.

I just can't get with the idea of him attacking the Amish. The Amish, for god sakes! I love the Amish. They are the nicest people on earth and their wonderful faith and the way they live just humbles me. What a horrible thing to happen to their community. :\'(

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting.ap/index.html?section=cnn_us&ref=google

Oh my God, this is terrible.  A 32-year-old milkman with a grudge against little girls lays siege to a one-room schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, PA.  He orders all the boys and the adults out and opens fire on helpless Amish schoolgirls.  Then the maniac turns the gun on himself.  He said earlier he was "angry at God."  I suppose God is pleased as punch with him!  There has been another spate of school shootings in the news this past week.  This one I find much more horrifying than the others!
Why can't a-holes like this just shoot themselves first?

Why can't a-holes like this just shoot themselves first?


I agree with you 100%.

In fact, I told one of our cops this morning that I wish that these people who do "Murder-Suicides" would reverse the order, and do the Suicide first.

My heart goes out the the families of all the people killed this last few weeks.  Out of all of them though, this is the most senseless.

I have a hard time watching the news when it comes to stories like this but this morning I found myself watching the new conference and I was almost in tears. It is so senseless. I just can't fathom how ANYONE could do something like this-not just this one but ALL OF THEM-from Moses Lakes in '96 to now.  http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html  This makes 42 times something like this has happen and once is TOO, TOO many.

What is the world coming to when they have to go after children?




Cat

It is indeed a tragedy, especially perpetrated on the Amish. I mean, they're pacifists for crying out loud! They aren't hurting anybody. They don't want to hurt anybody. And they absolutely *won't* hurt anybody - ever. I can't believe anybody would want to hurt them.

The guy said he had molested girls in the past he was only trying to stop himself from doing it again....sheash how do these nutcases get by?
I guess now that schools seem like the place for crack pots to go and do their damage.

This guy went insane. My question is how do we recognize these individuals before they can commit such attrocities?

For every one sick mofo who commits murder there are a thousand on the murder threshold who don't cross it because the retain even a smidgen of moral restraint.  
"Yep, hate the missus, hate the parents, hate the kids, hate the government, hate the boss, hate the girl behind the counter at Starbucks, hate every living thing thing under creation...God would I like to get me an Uzi and blow away as many of these human dogturds as possible, they don't deserve to live!  AHHHHHHHH!!!!!! KILL! KILL! KILL!

Erm, actually, I can't go around killing because I'm mad at the world.  Wouldn't be right.  So, just take my meds and go adjust those insurance claims.  BUT ONE OF THESE DAYS.... shhhh, shhh, no-no can't do that."
--Elmer Pencil
Yourcity, U.S.A.

There's scads of pent-up aggression and rage in our society.  Even nine out of ten of the nuttiest, meanest, creepiest characters don't really inflict grievous injury on another party.  You can't lock people up because you think they might do something.  Anyway, Scott Peterson, who woulda thunk it?

What do you think you are, for Chrissake, crazy or somethin'? Well you're not! You're not! You're no crazier than the average azzh()le out walkin' around on the streets and that's it.
--Randall Patrick McMurphy
"One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

I would say sometimes intervention is warranted.
Has this person committed acts of violence in the past?
Has this person made threats of imminant violent action?
Has this person suffered a traumatic experience in the recent past?
Does this person have access to firearms?

Yes to all four questions might call for preventative restraint.  However, even these broad criteria would not have gotten the mad milkman of Lancaster County detained by authorities.  

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload.
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's going to make them stay at home.
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was as good as gold.
And he can see no reason
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?
--The Boomtown Rats
"I Don't Like Mondays"

Who can tell for sure when the silicon chip is going to overload?  Only the madman is there to witness his breaking point...and if he's truly mad, and if he's truly bent on killing himself or killing others, he keeps it to himself.
Back in 2000, we had here in Massachusetts the case of mass murderer Michael "Mucko" McDermott.  He was 9-5 software engineer at a firm in Wakefield.  The day after Christmas that year, he descended upon the office armed with an AK-47.  He killed 7 people before he was subdued.  What gives?  Some people said, "We should have known. The guy always was a weirdo!"  Weirdo?  Software programmer?  Is this the first time those two have gone together?  Yeah, he had wild hair, a funky beard, and got along better with computers than other human beings.  By that standard, you'd have to lock up 2/3 of the male software engineers in the world!
::)

Why can't a-holes like this just shoot themselves first?



Amen to that! I just spoke the same statement to my mom.....instead of taking innocent lives....and THEN killling himself....just skip the middle part and do society a favor and do away with him before causing harm and heartache to innocent people.

The guy said he had molested girls in the past he was only trying to stop himself from doing it again....sheash how do these nutcases get by?
I guess now that schools seem like the place for crack pots to go and do their damage.




I just read that. I literally screamed out (though no one is around to hear me), "Why the F*CK didn't he just kill himself then if he was a goddamned pervert?"

I swear, if he weren't already dead, I'D kill him.

Given that this has been the third school shooting in a week (I believe) is it time for America to review it's 'right to bear arms'?

Given that this has been the third school shooting in a week (I believe) is it time for America to review it's 'right to bear arms'?


While I agree with gun control, it would an insult to those battling daily violence in the inner cities, if gun control came to past because of these three shootings. Oh, we must do something now that the majority is dealing with violence.

That being said, there's an unspoken rule in PA, at least in the Philly area (the metro area where the Amish are closest to in proximity), you don't mess with them. They are peaceful and don't deserve any trouble. I'm not cool with this at all.

For every one sick mofo who commits murder there are a thousand on the murder threshold who don't cross it because the retain even a smidgen of moral restraint.  
"Yep, hate the missus, hate the parents, hate the kids, hate the government, hate the boss, hate the girl behind the counter at Starbucks, hate every living thing thing under creation...God would I like to get me an Uzi and blow away as many of these human dogturds as possible, they don't deserve to live!  AHHHHHHHH!!!!!! KILL! KILL! KILL!

Erm, actually, I can't go around killing because I'm mad at the world.  Wouldn't be right.  So, just take my meds and go adjust those insurance claims.  BUT ONE OF THESE DAYS.... shhhh, shhh, no-no can't do that."
--Elmer Pencil
Yourcity, U.S.A.

There's scads of pent-up aggression and rage in our society.  Even nine out of ten of the nuttiest, meanest, creepiest characters don't really inflict grievous injury on another party.  You can't lock people up because you think they might do something.  Anyway, Scott Peterson, who woulda thunk it?

What do you think you are, for Chrissake, crazy or somethin'? Well you're not! You're not! You're no crazier than the average azzh()le out walkin' around on the streets and that's it.
--Randall Patrick McMurphy
"One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

I would say sometimes intervention is warranted.
Has this person committed acts of violence in the past?
Has this person made threats of imminant violent action?
Has this person suffered a traumatic experience in the recent past?
Does this person have access to firearms?

Yes to all four questions might call for preventative restraint.  However, even these broad criteria would not have gotten the mad milkman of Lancaster County detained by authorities.  

The silicon chip inside her head
Gets switched to overload.
And nobody's gonna go to school today,
She's going to make them stay at home.
And daddy doesn't understand it,
He always said she was as good as gold.
And he can see no reason
'Cause there are no reasons
What reason do you need to be shown?
--The Boomtown Rats
"I Don't Like Mondays"

Who can tell for sure when the silicon chip is going to overload?  Only the madman is there to witness his breaking point...and if he's truly mad, and if he's truly bent on killing himself or killing others, he keeps it to himself.
Back in 2000, we had here in Massachusetts the case of mass murderer Michael "Mucko" McDermott.  He was 9-5 software engineer at a firm in Wakefield.  The day after Christmas that year, he descended upon the office armed with an AK-47.  He killed 7 people before he was subdued.  What gives?  Some people said, "We should have known. The guy always was a weirdo!"  Weirdo?  Software programmer?  Is this the first time those two have gone together?  Yeah, he had wild hair, a funky beard, and got along better with computers than other human beings.  By that standard, you'd have to lock up 2/3 of the male software engineers in the world!
::)

Max, you've come up with reasons why you feel it won't work even before any idea has been offered;  do you have any suggestion for how to resolve the problem?

While I agree with gun control, it would an insult to those battling daily violence in the inner cities, if gun control came to past because of these three shootings. Oh, we must do something now that the majority is dealing with violence.

That being said, there's an unspoken rule in PA, at least in the Philly area (the metro area where the Amish are closest to in proximity), you don't mess with them. They are peaceful and don't deserve any trouble. I'm not cool with this at all.


But Tanya if there was better gun control would there be a need to be "battling daily violence in the inner cities"?

But Tanya if there was better gun control would there be a need to be "battling daily violence in the inner cities"?


Nope.  Because we had "inner city violence" long before we had guns.  And even if somehow an event that happened that rendered guns useless, they would simply use them as clubs.

I remember the "gang wars" in LA of the late 1970's and early 1980's.  There were still a lot of deaths, but mostly from knife wounds.  And you are much more likely to die if you are stabbed/slashed then you are if you are shot.  Guns really did not become involved in the "street gang wars" until the mid to late 1980's.

And it is also simply to easy to make a gun.  "Zip guns" can be made with things most people have laying around the house within an hour.  And more advanced guns can be made in any basic metal shop.  And gunpowder can be made from chemicals easily obtained in bulk.

I agree with the need for gun laws.  But in these cases, they would have done no good.  Even if this piece of coprolite did not own a gun before it happened, he showed that he was willing to wait as long as needed.  It seems now that he started to assemble the things for the takeover more then a week ago.  Even if there was a 14-30 day waiting period, he likely would simply have waited as long as needed.

The problem in most cases like this is that the person who does the crime exhibits no symptoms or criminal behaviors prior to the attack.  And gun laws have been proven to do no good in street crime, since very few criminals buy their firearms legally in the first place.  Mexico has even more stringent gun laws then we do in the US, yet they have even more street violence then we do here.

Max, you've come up with reasons why you feel it won't work even before any idea has been offered;  do you have any suggestion for how to resolve the problem?

Paddy, these are reasons why the problem is hard to solve. 

Here's my "conservative" solution: an AK-47 under every Amish schoolteacher's desk. 

I listened to Sirius Radio today
The Show: Bubba The Love Sponge

I could not believe what I was hearing. Becky Phelps - a leader of the "God hates Fags" group intends to take her people to the funeral of these girls and protest.

hour 2: "Becky Phelps on the phone from "God Hates Fags". She believes that the Amish school shootings were God's revenge on Pennsylvania and those victims are now in hell. Bubba prayed for Becky Phelps to die. Why does Becky protest the soldiers' funerals? Brent compares Becky's group to Al-Queda. Bubba pleaded with Becky to not show up a the Amish girls' funerals. He offered her airtime in exchange for them not going. She's talking to her people about it and will get back with us by the end of the show."

hour 3: "Beck Phelps accepts Bubba's offer from earlier where she would get 5 minutes of uninterrupted airtime once a week for a month if they would not protest the Amish girls' funerals"       btls.com

What ignorance this woman displays!

I listened to Sirius Radio today
The Show: Bubba The Love Sponge

I could not believe what I was hearing. Becky Phelps - a leader of the "God hates Fags" group intends to take her people to the funeral of these girls and protest.

hour 2: "Becky Phelps on the phone from "God Hates Fags". She believes that the Amish school shootings were God's revenge on Pennsylvania and those victims are now in hell. Bubba prayed for Becky Phelps to die. Why does Becky protest the soldiers' funerals? Brent compares Becky's group to Al-Queda. Bubba pleaded with Becky to not show up a the Amish girls' funerals. He offered her airtime in exchange for them not going. She's talking to her people about it and will get back with us by the end of the show."

hour 3: "Beck Phelps accepts Bubba's offer from earlier where she would get 5 minutes of uninterrupted airtime once a week for a month if they would not protest the Amish girls' funerals"       btls.com

What ignorance this woman displays!



that woman needs shot in the head. >:(

I listened to Sirius Radio today
The Show: Bubba The Love Sponge

I could not believe what I was hearing. Becky Phelps - a leader of the "God hates Fags" group intends to take her people to the funeral of these girls and protest.

hour 3: "Becky Phelps on the phone from "God Hates Fags". She believes that the Amish school shootings were God's revenge on Pennsylvania and those victims are now in hell. Bubba prayed for Becky Phelps to die. Why does Becky protest the soldiers' funerals? Brent compares Becky's group to Al-Queda. Bubba pleaded with Becky to not show up a the Amish girls' funerals. He offered her airtime in exchange for them not going. She's talking to her people about it and will get back with us by the end of the show."

hour 4: "Beck Phelps accepts Bubba's offer from earlier where she would get 5 minutes of uninterrupted airtime once a week for a month if they would not protest the Amish girls' funerals"       btls.com

What ignorance this woman displays!

Phelps? Fred's daughter?  Her clock is totally scrambled.  I almost feel sorry for her.  My car battery died the other day, she'd say "That's because you have f@g friends, and God hates f@gs, so God wanted your battery to die!  It's a warning!  God's gonna kill you next if you don't lose them f@ggot friends!"
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/11/cussing.gif

Sooner or later the lowdown on the Phelps family is gonna come to light, and it ain't gonna be pretty!  Freddie-sweetie has the only religious website I've ever seen with an "explicit content" warning!

Becky Phelps won't show up, but maybe some others from her demented clan will!  Then Bubba will still have to give her the time.  It's a good deal for Bubba anyway.  Phelps is one of a handful of public figures who can make Bubba look like less of an a-hole!

The whole "God Hates Fags" incestuous Phelps family is like a John Waters screenplay come to life!

If the Phelps do show up, I think it might be the final straw for the pacifist Amish.  Remember that scene in "Witness," with Harrison Ford, when the redneck townies start bullying the Amish farmers?


Eli Lapp: It happens.  Do nothing.  Wait... It's not our way.
John Book: It's MY way!!!

Paddy, these are reasons why the problem is hard to solve. 

Here's my "conservative" solution: an AK-47 under every Amish schoolteacher's desk. 
I guess many of us have ideas we can offer, and I think we should get more involved to protect ourselves. We should lobby our representatives to make sure convicted felons of this type are counseled and observed possibly for life to maybe help them keep their demons in check. You probably think it's funny, but I listen to what you say; if you put your energy into resolving horrors like these, you could maybe make some impact; I have ideas on how to save the world, I just lack the delivery.

I guess many of us have ideas we can offer, and I think we should get more involved to protect ourselves. We should lobby our representatives to make sure convicted felons of this type are counseled and observed possibly for life to maybe help them keep their demons in check. You probably think it's funny, but I listen to what you say; if you put your energy into resolving horrors like these, you could maybe make some impact; I have ideas on how to save the world, I just lack the delivery.


The problem is that the guy wasn't a convicted felon though. He was a "good" guy...supposedly. In this day and age you can't tell who is going to go off the deep end like that.

I have no solutions, except to say that if the whole world was as forgiving as the Amish, we might be living in better times.

And that Phelps broad is an idiot.

I was talking to my Mom this morning.  She said I went to elementery school with him.  I was in third, he was in first and he only stayed there a year.  I don't remember him.  I'm considering that a good thing.

  Caught this on the radio after work... 

  I don't think anyone can deny that there is now a "School Shooter Syndrome" that's now present in society.  Even when it dosen't involve an actual student, the school is evolving as the "holy grail" of the target with maximum social impact...

  Before there was the "school shooting", what destructive form of expression did the "school shooter" take?  Drugs?  Suicide?  "Regular" crime?  Just live with it until they got over it..?

  They also definitely run in clusters.  It can't be coincidence, and shooters must be inspired by the media coverage of other school shootings to act groove ;) on...
as i recall, before it was schools, public places like fast food restaurants and government buildings were popular places for hostage standoffs, shooting sprees, etc.

The problem is that the guy wasn't a convicted felon though. He was a "good" guy...supposedly. In this day and age you can't tell who is going to go off the deep end like that.

I have no solutions, except to say that if the whole world was as forgiving as the Amish, we might be living in better times.

And that Phelps broad is an idiot.

This level of premeditated carnage is unpredictable.  That's what I said.  The psychopath keeps it all hidden in his sick mind.  It is random crime in the sense that nobody could predict he would target that particular schoolhouse on that particular day...even if people who knew the guy were afraid he was going over the edge, nobody could tell for sure.  For every one that does there thousands who might but never do.

We could do things on a macro scale, such as develop economic policies which create less poverty and anxiety.  We could enact sensible gun control legislation so it would be harder to get weapons that can kill multiple people in under a minute.*  But any society no matter how gentle or stable (and ours is neither) cannot stop that one-tenth of one percent of the population will be dangerous sociopaths no matter what.  

* Second Amendment fetishists spare me the lectures!


as i recall, before it was schools, public places like fast food restaurants and government buildings were popular places for hostage standoffs, shooting sprees, etc.

That's right, and when public schools installed metal detectors and ran random drug searches, our news media encouraged us to say that the kids and their families are intrinsically bad, and the Great Society was a failure.  All Heil Ronald Reagan!  That is the agenda.  Violence has nothing to do with social and economic inequality and everything to do with secularism and gangsta rap. 

Here's my "conservative" solution: an AK-47 under every Amish schoolteacher's desk. 


Actually, that is being proposed!

*****

Frank Lasee (R-Green Bay) announced Wednesday that he plans to introduce legislation early next year that would give teachers and other school personnel the option of carrying concealed weapons. The action was largely prompted by the school shootings in Colorado, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, where Weston Schools principal was killed last week.

Hey, I kinda like the idea of teachers carrying concealed firearms.  You'd be a lot less inclined to throw paper airplanes and mouth off to Miss Grundy if you though she might be packing a piece.  I think you'd see test scores rise dramatically!
:D

Nope.  Because we had "inner city violence" long before we had guns.  And even if somehow an event that happened that rendered guns useless, they would simply use them as clubs.

I remember the "gang wars" in LA of the late 1970's and early 1980's.  There were still a lot of deaths, but mostly from knife wounds.  And you are much more likely to die if you are stabbed/slashed then you are if you are shot.  Guns really did not become involved in the "street gang wars" until the mid to late 1980's.

And it is also simply to easy to make a gun.  "Zip guns" can be made with things most people have laying around the house within an hour.  And more advanced guns can be made in any basic metal shop.  And gunpowder can be made from chemicals easily obtained in bulk.

I agree with the need for gun laws.  But in these cases, they would have done no good.  Even if this piece of coprolite did not own a gun before it happened, he showed that he was willing to wait as long as needed.  It seems now that he started to assemble the things for the takeover more then a week ago.  Even if there was a 14-30 day waiting period, he likely would simply have waited as long as needed.

The problem in most cases like this is that the person who does the crime exhibits no symptoms or criminal behaviors prior to the attack.  And gun laws have been proven to do no good in street crime, since very few criminals buy their firearms legally in the first place.  Mexico has even more stringent gun laws then we do in the US, yet they have even more street violence then we do here.


In my neighborhood during the late 70s and early 80s, gun violence became more so prevalant thanks to the ever growing drug trade.

Comparing a knife wound to a gunshot wound is like comparing your two children to see whom receives your favoritism. The likelihood of death depends on the type of gun used and where you are shot as the case with the location of the stab wound. I've lost many associates to a "simple" leg or arm wound because of internal bleeding and rupture organs.

Yes, there may have been inner city violence longer than any of us have been born. However, the random nature and the reasons for it has become more vicious than ever.

To those that advocate guns used by those in my profession, stop smoking the crack please. The classroom is a place to learn, not harm. We strive every day to instill that in our students because we know that parents are not doing a great job nowadays. We will not harvest the ills of society within our classrooms.

To those that advocate guns used by those in my profession, stop smoking the crack please. The classroom is a place to learn, not harm. We strive every day to instill that in our students because we know that parents are not doing a great job nowadays. We will not harvest the ills of society within our classrooms.


I fully agree with you there.  And if you notice, I put on some pretty strict requirements as well.  I have taken POST (Peace Officer Standards & Training) tests myself, and they are no walk in the park.  In fact, a large percentage of police officers fail their first attempt at the POST test every year.  Even though as a Marine I was a 5 time Expert with the Rifle and 3 time Sharpshooter with a pistol, I failed the shooting part my first time.  And when I got into security when I got out of the service, I made the decision to not be armed, because I did not want to have to go throught it over and over again.

It is so rigerous in fact, that a lot of potential police officers are never able to pass the test.  Former LA Police Chief Willie Williams never passed it.  He had to get a civilian "Concealed Carry" permit from the LA County Sheriff so he could carry a gun!  And out of those that did go through the initial requirements, I doubt that more then 20% of those would continue to keep them up for more then a year or two.  However, I think there would be a large psychological deterance to protential criminals in the thought they may meet an armed teacher.

Remember, I have a military law enforcement background, and I take firearms very seriously.  They are a deadly tool, and should never be used lightly.  And I doubt that more then 2 or 3 incidents with an armed teacher would ever occur in a year.  However, the possibility that a gunman might encounter an armed teacher may make them think twice.  That is why most burglars strike unoccupied houses.  Their biggest fear is meeting a homeowner, who might be armed.  Those that are not scared of the potential of meeting armed people are normally robbers, not burglars.

For those that have never taken a POST test, it is very rigerous.  The annual qualification includes 155 hours of classroom study, and 7 hours of marksmanship training.  And every police officer does this once a year.  That is a full month of 8 hour classes, 5 days a week.  Only somebody very serious and dedicated would even want to take the time and hastle of doing this every year.  And it is not cheap.  Private armed security guards normally pay around $1,000 for this test.  And I do not think that teachers should get this free.  If they want to carry a gun, they need to pay for it like everybody else who is not in law enforcement.

And it involves more then just shooting guns.  CPR and first aid (21 hours), non-lethal apprehension techniques (25 hours), and ethics (8 hours) are just some of the requirements.  When a candidate takes the course, they are already expected to be highly trained shooters.  If somebody without that training (former law enforcement or military) tried to take the test, they would fail miserably.  The Guard Schools in Calirofnia normally conduct "POST Pre-classes", which take around a month, and cost an additional $1,500+.

And remember, this is the same test that every law enforcement officer in the country must to take every year.  It is even more stringent then the one that the airline pilots have to take in order to get their carry permits for airplanes.  And unless the teachers were required to take this test, I would reject any proposal to allow them to carry firearms.  Period.

I doubt that more then 3-5 teachers in a school would even bother with the test (or even pass it) in the first place.  And I doubt that more then 1-2 would continue to go through with it for more then a year or two.  And most of them would probably be former military or law enforcement in the first place.  Like I said, I see it as a deterrent, not as a way to actively prevent these incidents from occuring.  Unless a gunman was unlucky enough to try to take over a classroom where that teacher was armed, this would have little impact in a real-life incident.  I know that if I was an armed teacher and another classroom was taken over, my #1 concern would be to evacuate the rest of the students to a place of safety.

But the deterrence may prevent more incidents in the future.

PS:  Remember I also said that I would require the use of a "Smart Gun".  Those are not cheap either, normally costing over $1,800.  When added all up, you are looking at over $4,500 and a full month of training (6-12 months if the training was on weekends) for a teacher to spend before they could be armed.  I doubt that many teachers could even afford that, unless they were in law enforcement prior to becoming teachers.  And even then, they would have to spend close to $3,000, and an additional $1,000 every year to stay qualified.

Can we also invest in finding the roots of violence in our society and work on eradicating those root causes?  Or are we Americans just stuck with it?

I do think ubiquitous firearms has something to do with it....at least it has something to do with the frightening amount of lethal violence that plagues this country.

We could do things on a macro scale, such as develop economic policies which create less poverty and anxiety.  We could enact sensible gun control legislation so it would be harder to get weapons that can kill multiple people in under a minute.*  But any society no matter how gentle or stable (and ours is neither) cannot stop that one-tenth of one percent of the population will be dangerous sociopaths no matter what.


Thanks for Getting It. 

The Canucks have gun control.  And probably as many rifles (although fewer handguns) per household as Americans do.  But as one of them said - commenting on the $2B (hey, in Canada that's a lot of money) firearms registry prompted by the 1989 massacre and the 2006 shooting in Montreal, Gun control won't protect us from the losers.

Sometimes, there is no root cause.

Thanks for Getting It. 

The Canucks have gun control.  And probably as many rifles (although fewer handguns) per household as Americans do.  But as one of them said - commenting on the $2B (hey, in Canada that's a lot of money) firearms registry prompted by the 1989 massacre and the 2006 shooting in Montreal, Gun control won't protect us from the losers.

Sometimes, there is no root cause.

Oh, Losers, I thought the article was "Gun Control Won't Protect us from the Hosers"
;)

Most of these mass murderers open fire because they feel the world has rejected them as "losers."  They're humiliated and enraged, and they figure the gun is the equalizer; the gun will get them even.  If we all treated one another with more dignity and respect, there would be far fewer men out there who have that emasculated and disempowered sense of worthlessness that inspires murderous rage (virtually all mass murderers have been men.  Also differentiate "mass murderer" from "serial murderer," which presents pathologies discrete from a single violent climax).

How many men hate themselves because of child abuse, sexual humiliation, employment failures, or social ostracism?  Millions.  How many of these men commit mass murder?  Practically none.  Maybe there's a milkman in Pottstown who feels exactly the same way as this nutcase did.  He's not going to hurt anybody though.  He's just going to deal with the pain of life the best he can.  It's like I said after Columbine.  When I was in school, the difference between me and those two punks is I never had a gun, and I never wanted to hurt anyone.

So it's important not to treat your fellow human beings like sh*t.  One of them could be the one in one hundred million who will climb the tower and shoot down passers by with a high-powered rifle!  Let's not call people "losers" in the first place.

As to the Nickle Mines milkman, it looks like he was responding to other violent acts he committed in his early teens.  He sexually assaulted little girls.  He hated himself for what he had done and his mental illness caused him to take his self-hatred out on more little girls.  The media portrays him as just an evil psychopath. OK, I think he qualifies.  But I'm not going for the Christiian Right mentality that says the devil got into his soul.  Twelve year old sexual predators are not born, they are made.
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/14/nono.gif

True, it somebody his hellbent on blowing people a way, he's going to get a gun, legally or not.  If somebody is just drunk and mad at his woman for running around on him, he is less likely to take lives if he doesn't have a gun that night.

When I was in school, the difference between me and those two punks is I never had a gun, and I never wanted to hurt anyone.

So it's important not to treat your fellow human beings like sh*t.  One of them could be the one in one hundred million who will climb the tower and shoot down passers by with a high-powered rifle!  Let's not call people "losers" in the first place.


The actual root causes in most of these cases is really not firearms, but mental illness.  In at least 2 of the last 3 incidents, I am sure that the root cause will actually be traced back to that.

I was ostracized by many people in High School as well.  I was the quiet, moody loner who was often picked on and everybody seemed to either ignore ot insult (if not attack).  And I had ready access to firearms.  I even had my own rifle and pistol.

But never once did I ever consider taking a gun and shooting somebody!  And you have to realize, deep down inside I have a very violent temper.  But I am so repulsed at the idea of hurting somebody that when I do let it out, I beat up things like brick walls and beds.  Even when I am feeling the most depressed or angry, the last thing I would ever do is hurt somebody else.

The real problem is people with sociopathic behaviors.  Even of those who are mentally ill, most would still draw the line at hurting somebody else.  At the worst, they normally resort to self-mutilation, suicide, and other self-destructive behavior.  It is a much smaller minority that resorts to murder (or mass murder).  And with these people, their behavior comes out in different ways.

Jeffrey Dahmer, Richard Ram

guns don't kill people, people kill people. but the guns sure help.

In retrospect, society sucks.

When a grown man has to do something like that to innocent children, we realise just how far we've gone.

I would honestlu say banning guns is something to consider. Australia has enforced laws on guns and hasn't had three school shootings in five decades let alone one week. I guess the population differance has something to do with it.

I just think society would be better off in the long run without every second citizen having a shotgun in their bedside cupboard.

Rest In Peace to those that were lost, it's a terrible thing.  :( Hopefully their passing won't be in vein, and hopefully it will spark awareness in these problems.

News flash!  No one will probably ever know why Charlie killed those Amish girls.  He claimed to have molested a few realitives when he was 12.  They don't remember him doing it. 

News flash!  No one will probably ever know why Charlie killed those Amish girls.  He claimed to have molested a few realitives when he was 12.  They don't remember him doing it. 

Man, that cat was con-fused!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/icon_shaking2.gif

The actual root causes in most of these cases is really not firearms, but mental illness.  In at least 2 of the last 3 incidents, I am sure that the root cause will actually be traced back to that.

I was ostracized by many people in High School as well.  I was the quiet, moody loner who was often picked on and everybody seemed to either ignore ot insult (if not attack).  And I had ready access to firearms.  I even had my own rifle and pistol.

But never once did I ever consider taking a gun and shooting somebody!  And you have to realize, deep down inside I have a very violent temper.  But I am so repulsed at the idea of hurting somebody that when I do let it out, I beat up things like brick walls and beds.  Even when I am feeling the most depressed or angry, the last thing I would ever do is hurt somebody else.
That's why I emphasized that I never wanted to hurt anyone.  Even if I had a gun, I wouldn't have shot anybody.  I'm still in favor of stricter gun control.  I don't expect conservatives to agree with me.

The real problem is people with sociopathic behaviors.  Even of those who are mentally ill, most would still draw the line at hurting somebody else.  At the worst, they normally resort to self-mutilation, suicide, and other self-destructive behavior.  It is a much smaller minority that resorts to murder (or mass murder).  And with these people, their behavior comes out in different ways.
That is important to remember.  People with bona-fide psychiatric illnesses are far more likely to be victims of crime than to commit crimes.  You do get the occasional paranoid schizophrenic or sociopath who grinds people up in a woodchipper, and this causes unwarranted fear of mentally ill people among the general public.

Jeffrey Dahmer, Richard Ram