I just noticed that his account is gone.

What happened?  ???

He still has an account, though it looks like he doesn't visit much anymore.

http://www.inthe00s.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1479

looks like his last posts were in may. i remember the baloney picture!

Maybe he lost interest.  Maybe he's too busy these days.  Maybe he finds being GWB2004 too embarrassing lately!
;D

I know I've been off and on with these boards so I may have missed something, but I don't think he ever gave his real name, nor did he ever post a photo of himself. I always kind of wondered what he looked like, for some reason I pictured him with a grey mullet.

Who knows, maybe he is GW Bush ;D

Who knows, maybe he is GW Bush ;D
No, he spelled too many words correctly.  ;D

No, he spelled too many words correctly.  ;D


http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/laughing3.gif http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/laughing3.gif http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/13/laughing3.gif

I know I've been off and on with these boards so I may have missed something, but I don't think he ever gave his real name, nor did he ever post a photo of himself. I always kind of wondered what he looked like, for some reason I pictured him with a grey mullet.

Nah, he had a mullet in the '80s when he was down on the factory floor.  Since he moved into a foreman position, he's traditional tapered barber shop chop, parted down the middle. 

Nah, he had a mullet in the '80s when he was down on the factory floor.  Since he moved into a foreman position, he's traditional tapered barber shop chop, parted down the middle. 
Hey, I resemble that remark!  >:(

Maybe GWBush2004 will come back as GWBush2006 ;D

Hey, I resemble that remark!  >:(

But I thought you were the trucker dude with the mullet...and the faded Led Zep t-shirt!
;)

But I thought you were the trucker dude with the mullet...and the faded Led Zep t-shirt!
;)
I'm offended by your stereotyping of truck drivers as all having mullets and wearing Led Zeppelin shirts. Most of us wear Skynyrd shirts.

I'm offended by your stereotyping of truck drivers as all having mullets and wearing Led Zeppelin shirts. Most of us wear Skynyrd shirts.

Oh, that's right.  It's the roofers who wear the Led Zeppelin t-shirts!

Maybe GWBush2004 will come back as GWBush2006 ;D

Maybe in 2008 he'll change his screenname to that of whoever the Republican presidential candidate is!

And to LyricBoy: he deleted his original account and re-registered in October '04. I dunno why he did that, and didn't keep his original account. ::)

More then likely, it is for the same reason that I do not post in here anywhere near as often as I used it.

This message forum is simply to hostile towards those that do not proclaim themselves to be "Liberal".

nowadays I simply skim through a few forums, and move on.  You will now mostly find me wandering through the decades areas, or in the Ask Me where I still give computer advise.  But I have pretty much given up on participating on anything of substance.  You simply can't debate dogma with facts.  Dogma will win every time, because the person knows they are right, and nothing else matters.

*returns to the earlier discussion comparing Lindsay Lohan to Molly Ringwald*

Oh, that's right.  It's the roofers who wear the Led Zeppelin t-shirts!


I resent that.. us roofers don't wear shirts.

More then likely, it is for the same reason that I do not post in here anywhere near as often as I used it.

This message forum is simply to hostile towards those that do not proclaim themselves to be "Liberal".

nowadays I simply skim through a few forums, and move on.  You will now mostly find me wandering through the decades areas, or in the Ask Me where I still give computer advise.  But I have pretty much given up on participating on anything of substance.  You simply can't debate dogma with facts.  Dogma will win every time, because the person knows they are right, and nothing else matters.

If you don't mind my saying so, but I have observed that GW was a bit "dogmatic" himself, but on the opposite spectrum.  I refrain from posting these days because I figure there's no point, either



*returns to the earlier discussion comparing Lindsay Lohan to Molly Ringwald*


Molly Ringwald >>> Lindsay Lohan :D

to proclaim that other people (i.e., by the implication of the language you use, all liberals) are practicing dogma while you alone traffick in facts is itself, ironically, dogma.

i think the whole katrina thing really sums up the debate here nicely. you brought up a few specious claims borrowed whole from fox news -- mississippi got it as bad a new orleans, never mind the levees, the below sea-level, the urban concentratino in NO; the local officials were to blame, never mind how the local officials were swamped and overwhelmed -- and then when your argument was refuted by the facts, you waited a while and then posted the same argument.

i can understand how it would be frustrating to feel outnumbered; i left the landofthelost message board because everybody on there but me was a flagrant jingoist. but here i think there's actually more of a balance than you say between left and right... me, maxwell and occasionally davester are the only people on the left who are hammering at it pretty consistently. rice cube, jessica, the artist formerly known as jacks (where'd she go, anyway?), i think this kid, davey, there are definitely conservatives here.

however, there don't seem to be many people left who are flagrantly pro-administration llke you are and GW was; y'all a dying breed, twould seem. i wouldn't hazard a guess as to why.

^^^^^^

*laughs*

Your Honour, I rest my case.

I pointed no fingers.  I did not even try to drege up anything.  Yet some people insist that I some kind of Dogmatic Right Wing Radical, who wants to turn the world back to the 1860's.  I am Conservative, so that means I want to see mandatory school prayer, segregation, and to remove social programs and minimum wage standards.  I want to see this a Christian nation, and everybody else not WASP kicked out.  Oh, and I listen to Rush Limbaugh and watch Fox News constantly.

And of course because you and I dissagree on an issue, that means I am the fool.  Some people see a debate as "Right And Wrong".  I simply see it as a debate, between people who have different opions.  I do not say the other is wrong, or that they are a fool for having their beliefs.

And in this place, if you do not agree with a Leftest point of view, you are increasingly attacked and insulted.  And every little belief is turned into some kind of political statement without much factual context at all.

I dissagree with a lot of things in here, and it is rarely in a negative way.  About the only time you will ever see me stand up and spit venom is if somebody is degragating somebody over religion, race, sex, orientation, or something like that.  I simply have no tolerance for prejudice.  I simply can't work up any kind of a hate over much of anything else.

And now this pawn of the Administration is signing off.  I have to make sure I am home in time to watch Bill O'Riley.  And after that, I am going to listen to my books on tape version of the biography of George Lincoln Rockwell, as narrated by James Earl Jones.

^^^^^^

*laughs*

Your Honour, I rest my case.

I pointed no fingers.  I did not even try to drege up anything.  Yet some people insist that I some kind of Dogmatic Right Wing Radical, who wants to turn the world back to the 1860's.  I am Conservative, so that means I want to see mandatory school prayer, segregation, and to remove social programs and minimum wage standards.  I want to see this a Christian nation, and everybody else not WASP kicked out.  Oh, and I listen to Rush Limbaugh and watch Fox News constantly.

And of course because you and I dissagree on an issue, that means I am the fool.  Some people see a debate as "Right And Wrong".  I simply see it as a debate, between people who have different opions.  I do not say the other is wrong, or that they are a fool for having their beliefs.

And in this place, if you do not agree with a Leftest point of view, you are increasingly attacked and insulted.  And every little belief is turned into some kind of political statement without much factual context at all.

I dissagree with a lot of things in here, and it is rarely in a negative way.  About the only time you will ever see me stand up and spit venom is if somebody is degragating somebody over religion, race, sex, orientation, or something like that.  I simply have no tolerance for prejudice.  I simply can't work up any kind of a hate over much of anything else.

And now this pawn of the Administration is signing off.  I have to make sure I am home in time to watch Bill O'Riley.  And after that, I am going to listen to my books on tape version of the biography of George Lincoln Rockwell, as narrated by James Earl Jones.
but see, now you're taking it all personally and acting incensed when all i did was cite arguments you've made. (okay, yes, i said you were more or less uniformly pro-administration, but... you sorta are...)

all this stuff seems kinda passive aggressive to me. you're responding to something i didn't actually say.

but see, now you're taking it all personally and acting incensed when all i did was cite arguments you've made. (okay, yes, i said you were more or less uniformly pro-administration, but... you sorta are...)

all this stuff seems kinda passive aggressive to me. you're responding to something i didn't actually say.


But you were THINKING it, weren't ya, hippie!  :D :D ;)

Nice weather we are having, huh?




Cat

Nice weather we are having, huh?




Cat
no thanks to the damn liberals!

i can understand how it would be frustrating to feel outnumbered; i left the landofthelost message board because everybody on there but me was a flagrant jingoist. but here i think there's actually more of a balance than you say between left and right... me, maxwell and occasionally davester are the only people on the left who are hammering at it pretty consistently. rice cube, jessica, the artist formerly known as jacks (where'd she go,


I take offense to being called a conservative. I have my own beliefs about the government and my own way of thinking, thank you. I just don't act a fool about it. I make fun of Maxwell because he USED to have many outstanding points that I agreed with. Now he just calls anyone who disagrees with him a "fascist" or posts stupid assed pictures of Rush Limbaugh. Don Carlos doesn't pop up much anymore (I wish he would though...talk about the voice of reason!), and while we had our differences in the beginning, I agreed with many of his views.

So yeah...bite me.

^ You have no idea how much stuff we disagree on!  :o

^ You have no idea how much stuff we disagree on!  :o


I usually win though.

I usually win though.


:-*

But we agree on things too.

More then likely, it is for the same reason that I do not post in here anywhere near as often as I used it.

This message forum is simply to hostile towards those that do not proclaim themselves to be "Liberal".

nowadays I simply skim through a few forums, and move on.  You will now mostly find me wandering through the decades areas, or in the Ask Me where I still give computer advise.  But I have pretty much given up on participating on anything of substance.  You simply can't debate dogma with facts.  Dogma will win every time, because the person knows they are right, and nothing else matters.

*returns to the earlier discussion comparing Lindsay Lohan to Molly Ringwald*

http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/07/nopity.gif

I resent that.. us roofers don't wear shirts.

Oh, that's right, roofers just wear multiple tattoos on the back, chest, arms, and neck!
8)

I take offense to being called a conservative. I have my own beliefs about the government and my own way of thinking, thank you. I just don't act a fool about it. I make fun of Maxwell because he USED to have many outstanding points that I agreed with. Now he just calls anyone who disagrees with him a "fascist" or posts stupid assed pictures of Rush Limbaugh. Don Carlos doesn't pop up much anymore (I wish he would though...talk about the voice of reason!), and while we had our differences in the beginning, I agreed with many of his views.

So yeah...bite me.
fascist!

i actually totally support and am in favor of people taking the label "conservative" as an insult. it warm my heart.

fascist!


And I love Tuesday!

no thanks to the damn liberals!



Hey, I resemble that remark.



I take offense to being called a conservative. I have my own beliefs about the government and my own way of thinking, thank you. I just don't act a fool about it. I make fun of Maxwell because he USED to have many outstanding points that I agreed with. Now he just calls anyone who disagrees with him a "fascist" or posts stupid assed pictures of Rush Limbaugh. Don Carlos doesn't pop up much anymore (I wish he would though...talk about the voice of reason!), and while we had our differences in the beginning, I agreed with many of his views.

So yeah...bite me.



I read your post to him and he said that he should come around more often. So, maybe he will.




Cat

I take offense to being called a conservative. I have my own beliefs about the government and my own way of thinking, thank you. I just don't act a fool about it. I make fun of Maxwell because he USED to have many outstanding points that I agreed with. Now he just calls anyone who disagrees with him a "fascist" or posts stupid assed pictures of Rush Limbaugh. Don Carlos doesn't pop up much anymore (I wish he would though...talk about the voice of reason!), and while we had our differences in the beginning, I agreed with many of his views.



  I agree with what (I think) you've said.  I think that labeling one's self as either a 'liberal' or 'conservative' can be dangerous.  It seems that many self-proclaimed liberals will oppose ANY argument made by someone who's identified themselves as a conservative (I hope I'm not guilty of this...)  The reverse is true as well, conservatives seems quick to use 'liberal' and 'whacko pinko' synonymously...

  The problem is that these labels further polarize politics.  Perhaps this is inevitable - we tend to prefer dealing with black & white issues.  All issues seem to have only two sides, the whole "with us or you're against us" mentality.  This means that liberals dismiss conservative ideas as fascist and conservatives dismiss liberal ideas as communist.  Few are willing to collaberate...
 
  This polarity is not the path to liberalism (as some may say...) but stagnation.  Kind of like an equilibrium, where nothing will change and thus nothing will progress...

  I don't think stricly liberal thinking or conservative thinking is enough to solve a lot of the complex problems in the world.  And when somebody labels themselves either way, the only thing I see is a person unwilling to comprimise, someone who's idea of politcal success is to overpower those in opposition groove ;) on...

i actually totally support and am in favor of people taking the label "conservative" as an insult. it warm my heart.


I think you be the Conservative. :D



I read your post to him and he said that he should come around more often. So, maybe he will.

Cat


Sweet. How's he doing?


   I agree with what (I think) you've said.  I think that labeling one's self as either a 'liberal' or 'conservative' can be dangerous.  It seems that many self-proclaimed liberals will oppose ANY argument made by someone who's identified themselves as a conservative (I hope I'm not guilty of this...)  The reverse is true as well, conservatives seems quick to use 'liberal' and 'whacko pinko' synonymously...

   The problem is that these labels further polarize politics.  Perhaps this is inevitable - we tend to prefer dealing with black & white issues.  All issues seem to have only two sides, the whole "with us or you're against us" mentality.  This means that liberals dismiss conservative ideas as fascist and conservatives dismiss liberal ideas as communist.  Few are willing to collaberate...
  
   This polarity is not the path to liberalism (as some may say...) but stagnation.  Kind of like an equilibrium, where nothing will change and thus nothing will progress...

   I don't think stricly liberal thinking or conservative thinking is enough to solve a lot of the complex problems in the world.  And when somebody labels themselves either way, the only thing I see is a person unwilling to comprimise, someone who's idea of politcal success is to overpower those in opposition groove ;) on...


Amen.

i used to back away from the "liberal" label for a long time, and i do have a fair number of opinions i don't think are traditionally liberal, but once i saw how a lot of people particularly in the press were using the word as an insult i started to feel an obligation to take ownership of it. they're sloppy terms, liberal and conservative, yes, but they can be useful when you're in a hurry. plus, regardless of how much people might want to distance themselves from them, people who observe your political convictions over time will almost inevitably start to detect a preponderance of views that seem to lean in one direction or the other. nothing wrong with that and people will eventually apply one of the labels or another so i personally figure folks might as well pick a lane based on their own recognizance. that doesn't mean i automatically disagree with someone who's conservative. davey and i agree on quite a bit. i disagree with maxwell on a lot (im not so big on socialism, for instance). so you know... they're handy general terms but it's important not to put the cart before the horse.

Sweet. How's he doing?





He's doing much better after his back surgery in June. But I have a hell of a time trying to stop from lifting too much. He said that he will probably make an appearance tomorrow.



Cat

Oh, that's right, roofers just wear multiple tattoos on the back, chest, arms, and neck!
8)



;D

You got it.

^^^^^^

*laughs*

Your Honour, I rest my case.

I pointed no fingers.  I did not even try to drege up anything.  Yet some people insist that I some kind of Dogmatic Right Wing Radical, who wants to turn the world back to the 1860's. 
Uh, some people made the mistake that I'm a dogmatic hippie radical who wants to turn the world back to the 1960s!
Well, I made a pun on Rice Cube as Right Cubed, so the guy changes his handle to Right Cubed, then he calls me a hippie!  I warn't never no hippie!  
I was raised around two generations of hippies and I saw them at their worst.  In my youth, I made a conscientious decision to rebel against the hippies...not on political values, but on social values.  So I went through a short "punk" phase (I was never a punk either, I was a New Romantic with a bit of street theatre).  It wasn't the orange Mohawk that really bugged my mother.  It's when I started getting buzz cuts.  It was the complete reverse of the 1960s:  "When are you going to let your hair grow out!  That crew cut is horrible! It reminds me of the fifties!" Gotcha, Ma!

I wasn't a hippie, I was a Leftist, and I still am.  I felt betrayed by a vast contingent of the hippies of the '60s and '70s when they became yuppies and voted for Reagan in the '80s.  Turns out they were just kids basking in the post-war boom of the sixties, and just in it for the free love, dope, and groovy Eastern mysticism.  So when they got MBAs, bought BMWs, and moved into tract mansions (think the Keatons on "Family Ties") they declared themselves still groovy because they smoked pot, listened to Hendrix, ate organic foods, and did yoga.  That disgusted me. It still does.  I call them "lifestyle liberals," and call their claims on the Left bogus because they look down their noses at the working class.  I consider myself working class.  Sure, I drink lattes and listen to classical music, but that sh*t doesn't matter.  "Class" is economic.  You can take your eye off the money if you want, but the robber barons never will!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/06/jinnwink.gif
"They said I was a hippie.  I wasn't a hippie.  I was out there playing bongos and reciting poetry in 1954, 1955.  Then when I got out of jail, I saw what they did to the Beats, and now they had the hippies on the block, and they was fixin' to eat the hippies up like they ate the Beats up! 
But I wasn't a hippie, I was a beatnik!--Charles Manson (paraphrased)
(That's just a Manson sample running through my mind from the Cabaret Voltaire album "The Arm of the Lord."  I don't have the exact quote.)

I don't think I've directly called people on this board "fascists," but I have called a lot of the right-wing ideology "fascist," because that's what it is.  Textbook definition.  The Bush Administration is a fascist regime.  Plain and simple. 
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
The reason the word rings hollow is because it was misused for so many decades.  It's time to wake up!  Fascism is here, and it's the real McCoy!
This is not free market capitalism by any stretch.

I also find some of the statements made by the self-identified conservatives to be incredibly callous.  One of you called post-Katrina New Orleans a "pity party."  That is a heartless thing to say.  You are not a heartless person.  However, the conservative philosophy has sold "heartlessness" as "manlliness," as "realism." That it is not.

^ I was kidding.  You take yourself way too seriously.

Hippie.

^wasn't he actually responding to mushroom?

i used to back away from the "liberal" label for a long time, and i do have a fair number of opinions i don't think are traditionally liberal, but once i saw how a lot of people particularly in the press were using the word as an insult i started to feel an obligation to take ownership of it. they're sloppy terms, liberal and conservative, yes, but they can be useful when you're in a hurry. plus, regardless of how much people might want to distance themselves from them, people who observe your political convictions over time will almost inevitably start to detect a preponderance of views that seem to lean in one direction or the other. nothing wrong with that and people will eventually apply one of the labels or another so i personally figure folks might as well pick a lane based on their own recognizance. that doesn't mean i automatically disagree with someone who's conservative. davey and i agree on quite a bit. i disagree with maxwell on a lot (im not so big on socialism, for instance). so you know... they're handy general terms but it's important not to put the cart before the horse.


  " i started to feel an obligation to take ownership of it..."

  As did I...

  And my basic gripe with the conservative point of view is it's too self-involved to stop and think of other people.  Conservatism in America appeals ad hominem to the notion of "I".  Liberalism starts from a presumption of "We".  After all, this is a community...

  We can say the difference is just one of perspective, but what are the effects of that perspective..?

  Conservatism looks to an archaic necessity of competition, Liberalism looks to the obvious necessity of cooperation...

  Within sentience, self-awareness, and intellect there are a number of obvious points:

• Humans develop very specific sentimental values (largely subjective) that go well beyond suicidal, grieving chimpanzees...
• Human beings are, obviously, stronger in collectives than they are as individuals...
• No modern human can owe their entire self inwardly; people are products of the communities and cultures around them...

  Human beings are social creatures.  Societal arrangements are part of what we do groove ;) on...

I take offense to being called a conservative. I have my own beliefs about the government and my own way of thinking, thank you. I just don't act a fool about it. I make fun of Maxwell because he USED to have many outstanding points that I agreed with. Now he just calls anyone who disagrees with him a "fascist" or posts stupid assed pictures of Rush Limbaugh. Don Carlos doesn't pop up much anymore (I wish he would though...talk about the voice of reason!), and while we had our differences in the beginning, I agreed with many of his views.

So yeah...bite me.

Well, Rush Limbaugh is stupid-assed, so it follows his pictures will be stupid-assed!
The Limbaugh pics illustrated the point that certain conservatives who claimed to dislike Limbaugh nevertheless were reciting his talking points.  He too blamed the Louisiana victims of Katrina for their own plight, he said they "made their own bed," that cliche.
He conveniently overlooked the fact that the MS coast is still a disaster area.  It's 100% partisan with these guys!

  Conservatism looks to an archaic necessity of competition, Liberalism looks to the obvious necessity of cooperation...


Competition is for little people, just like taxes and the rule of law.  Reagan cemented the Right's unspoken goal:  "Socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for everybody else."  Halliburton--is that "competition"?  Do you think Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld believe their children should have to compete with your children? 
As Jim Hightower said of the Bushies, "Never have so few done so much for so few."
::)
I'm not one of those mushy libs who doesn't believe in competition.  I think competition is healthy for both individual character and for the marketplace...but it has to actually be competition!  The Republican party's idea of "competition" is to send a 110 pound guy in to wrestle a 300 pound guy.  Sure, it's "competition" in the sense that wrestling is a competitive sport--but you know the outcome before the match even starts!  That's the GOP way in education, business, and social policy!

The reason I posted this thread is 'cause there is a threst that was started by GWBush2004 but it does not have the hyperlink.

GWB must have quit the board and then later rejoined.

The reason I posted this thread is 'cause there is a threst that was started by GWBush2004 but it does not have the hyperlink.

GWB must have quit the board and then later rejoined.


  I looked at his last posts when you created this thread, and the list showed he was active as recently as 23 Aug...

I'm not one of those mushy libs who doesn't believe in competition.  I think competition is healthy for both individual character and for the marketplace...but it has to actually be competition!  The Republican party's idea of "competition" is to send a 110 pound guy in to wrestle a 300 pound guy.  Sure, it's "competition" in the sense that wrestling is a competitive sport--but you know the outcome before the match even starts!  That's the GOP way in education, business, and social policy!


    What I mean is, being a competititve, economic society, we require competition in the world to prosper, therefore we have a trend of creating our enemies by accident of ignorance (accident of bliss..?)  I don't think it's entirely coincidental...

  What is the confusion between the dog-eat-dog ideas of the world and the cooperative human endeavor?  Born under the bad sign of Nixon, awakening at the transition from Carter to Reagan, I grew up on the idea that human beings are in competition with one another.  And watching that dynamic between people reveals much about the miseries of the world...

  Now, economy?  Well, Marx had an idea.  I like Wilde's take on socialism.  But people (Americans, for instance) don't believe in these ideas.  They believe in competition, in winners and losers, and choose division and comparison groove ;) on...

Hey look, I found him!!!

http://informeddissent.org/images/BushToilet.jpg

    What I mean is, being a competititve, economic society, we require competition in the world to prosper, therefore we have a trend of creating our enemies by accident of ignorance (accident of bliss..?)  I don't think it's entirely coincidental...

   What is the confusion between the dog-eat-dog ideas of the world and the cooperative human endeavor?  Born under the bad sign of Nixon, awakening at the transition from Carter to Reagan, I grew up on the idea that human beings are in competition with one another.  And watching that dynamic between people reveals much about the miseries of the world...

   Now, economy?  Well, Marx had an idea.  I like Wilde's take on socialism.  But people (Americans, for instance) don't believe in these ideas.  They believe in competition, in winners and losers, and choose division and comparison groove ;) on...

I always say, "Losers losing at what cost?"  The U.S. has a minimal social safety net and less social stability the other countries.  Good, less taxation.  Not really.  We keep throwing the "losers" in jail.  Prison is a the most expensive "gated community" there is!  The Right doesn't mind the sky-high costs of prisons because prison is about punishment and suffering.  Their answer, of course, is "privatize the prisons."  Make them labor sixteen hours a day on chain gangs, pay rent for their cells, and pay for their own food and medical care while incarcerated.  That'll teach 'em some personal responsibility!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/violent4.gif

I always say, "Losers losing at what cost?"  The U.S. has a minimal social safety net and less social stability the other countries.  Good, less taxation.  Not really.   We keep throwing the "losers" in jail.   Prison is a the most expensive "gated community" there is!  The Right doesn't mind the sky-high costs of prisons because prison is about punishment and suffering.  Their answer, of course, is "privatize the prisons."  Make them labor sixteen hours a day on chain gangs, pay rent for their cells, and pay for their own food and medical care while incarcerated.  That'll teach 'em some personal responsibility!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/15/violent4.gif
Don't want to go to prison?

Don't break the law.

Don't want to go to prison?

Don't break the law.


::) Typical.

So does that mean you can be treated like an animal?

::) Typical.

So does that mean you can be treated like an animal?
Not my problem. I don't steal from anyone, nor do I rape women or murder people, so I guess being treated like an animal in prison isn't really something I need to be too concerned about.

I also find some of the statements made by the self-identified conservatives to be incredibly callous.  One of you called post-Katrina New Orleans a "pity party."  That is a heartless thing to say.  You are not a heartless person.  However, the conservative philosophy has sold "heartlessness" as "manlliness," as "realism." That it is not.


OK, this demands a clarification.  I called Ray Nagin a "Pity Party", not New Orleans.  Huge difference.

And here is one thing that constantly ticks me off:

I hear people in here spouting almost the exact same words that come out of DMC spokesmen, Billary Clinton, Air America, Michael Moore, and every other Left-wing source.  Yet I never go around stating that you all are "spokesholes for the Democrats".  Why is that? Well, since you all follow the same general political beliefs, it is only natural that you would share a lot of the same beliefs.  In the same way that if you are Jewish, I would expect you to not eat Oysters.  But I do not assume that every Jew avoids Oysters, no more then I assume that anybody who avoids Oysters is a Jew (or a Muslim).

I assume that everybody in here has free will, and makes up their own minds independent of what anybody else tells them.

Yet, "Conservatives" in here are increasingly bashed as "brain dead puppets of the evil Repugnant Republican Mind Control System".  We blindly turn on Rush Limbaugh, and parrot everything he says.  Well, let me say this yet once again:  I almost never listen to Rush.  I *may* catch part of his show once a month, if even that often.  I also do not watch Bill O'Riley, unless I have heard about a particularly interesting guest he is having on.  The last time I turned on Bill O'Riley was maybe mid-July.

Every belief, thought, and decision I have comes from me, Michael Paul Martin.  I am nobodies puppet.  I talk about *my* beliefs, not the beliefs of the President, or anybody else.  And as has been commented in here many times (with surprise by some), would often agree on an issue with Max or Don Carlos, and dissagree with GW2004 when he was an active poster.

So just because we happen to agree with the President, or somebody else, it is just as likely that we may dissagree with them on something else.  But I find the attitude that people consider me to be some mindless minion to be both insulting, and stupid.  Yet, I know it means nothing, because it will continue anyways.  I have simply stopped careing anymore.  So go ahead, continue your little "bash this" and "bash that" topics.  There is anough crap in life that is bad, that I do not have to go around crapping on other people, simply because I dissagree with them.

And before anybody takes this as an attack, I suggest you take a good long hard look at yourself.  There are a lot of people in here who I dissagreee with politically, but still have a lot of respect for.  These are the ones who are able to keep things civil, without resorting to name calling and pontification on a soapbox about how they are right and I am wrong.  I have had debates with these people, where we both walked away without any antagonism whatsoever, to agree on another topic 2 items lower on the list.

Myself, I love "debate".  I dislike "arguement".  I absolutely hate insulting and pontification.  I do not hate anybody here.  I may dissagree with some of your beliefs, but I do not hate them.  I simply dissagree with them.  To me, this should all be about communication, where each side walks away with a little bit better of an understanding on how others think and feel.  Instead, it is more and more turned over to Conversion, where the opposing viewpoint is wrong, and must be stamped out wherever seen.  That is not civil, so I no longer participate in those typs of discussions.

*I now bow out of this topic, and move on to happier things - eagerly awaiting to see what the first pictures of Tom Cruise's rugrat looks like*

well, i don't think it's actually all that bad a thing to point out that someone is reiterating the points that rush limbaugh makes or bill o'reilly makes. but if you want to take that as a personal insult, that's cool. whatever. if i bring up the bush administration's friendly relationship with the saudis and how that may well have impeded the investigation of the hijackers and helped bring about 9.11, someone might try to discredit it by associating it with michael moore and fahrenheit 911. and that's a fair response, and then i have to talk about how i'd been reading about that point long before i saw fahrenheit 911.

but again, i think you're responding to a perceived incivility that, in reality, isn't there. i don't see any problem with pointing out the similarity between points made on the board and points made by talk show hosts, etc., when that similarity exists. and all the language you cite -- "brain dead puppets of the evil Repugnant Republican Mind Control System," and terms like "spokesholes" -- where exactly did this language appear on this board?

for someone who likes to debate politics, you seem to be very... um, sensitive.

I take offense to being called a conservative. I have my own beliefs about the government and my own way of thinking, thank you. I just don't act a fool about it. I make fun of Maxwell because he USED to have many outstanding points that I agreed with. Now he just calls anyone who disagrees with him a "fascist" or posts stupid assed pictures of Rush Limbaugh. Don Carlos doesn't pop up much anymore (I wish he would though...talk about the voice of reason!), and while we had our differences in the beginning, I agreed with many of his views.

So yeah...bite me.


Thanks, Jess, I try.  My guess is that GWB left because he did feel outnumbered, but more, out debated on so many issues.  Now to the "dogma" stuff.  The first time I taught a college course (as a TA) the prof, Warren Sussman (RIP) told our mass of freshmen that there are two eliments to studying history.  First, the interpretive framework one brings to the study, and second, the facts one unearths.  The first we develop as we are socialized, its our world view (he likened it to a christmas tree), and it guides us as we determin which "facts" are important and need to be wraped into our interepretation (or use to decorate the tree).  This process becomes dogma when we distort the facts or fail to incorporate or explain them away.  For example, Mush cited a bunch of facts re wire/phone/radio/computer tapping.  What he neglected to acknowledge is that just because somerthing is technically possible does not make it legal under every circumstance.  So teah, I can monitor police band radio etc, but that doesnt give the gov't. the right to monitor my phone (without a warrent).

Thanks again.

well, i don't think it's actually all that bad a thing to point out that someone is reiterating the points that rush limbaugh makes or bill o'reilly makes. but if you want to take that as a personal insult, that's cool. whatever. if i bring up the bush administration's friendly relationship with the saudis and how that may well have impeded the investigation of the hijackers and helped bring about 9.11, someone might try to discredit it by associating it with michael moore and fahrenheit 911. and that's a fair response, and then i have to talk about how i'd been reading about that point long before i saw fahrenheit 911.

but again, i think you're responding to a perceived incivility that, in reality, isn't there. i don't see any problem with pointing out the similarity between points made on the board and points made by talk show hosts, etc., when that similarity exists. and all the language you cite -- "brain dead puppets of the evil Repugnant Republican Mind Control System," and terms like "spokesholes" -- where exactly did this language appear on this board?


I think he's talking about Maxwell Smart. I've seen Maxwell throw around words like "Sounds like the right-wing talking heads", "Drinking the right-wing Kool-Aid", and similar things, to certain people. I don't know about those other words, though.

I think he's talking about Maxwell Smart. I've seen Maxwell throw around words like "Sounds like the right-wing talking heads", "Drinking the right-wing Kool-Aid", and similar things, to certain people.


well, to be fair, i've seen the kool-aid comment from time to time and yeah, if that were directed against me it would bother me. as for "sounds like right-wing talking heads," that's sorta a testable claim.

Not my problem. I don't steal from anyone, nor do I rape women or murder people, so I guess being treated like an animal in prison isn't really something I need to be too concerned about.


I've lost all respect for you, and if this forum had an ignore feature I'd be using it. >:(

look out al-b, looks like you've accidentally crossed one of dude's many invisible lines!

i did that once.

look out al-b, looks like you've accidentally crossed one of dude's many invisible lines!

i did that once.


Its not invisible, my own father just recently got out of prison, I've mentioned it on this forum before.

Its not invisible, my own father just recently got out of prison, I've mentioned it on this forum before.

not everybody's keeping written notes though.

not everybody's keeping written notes though.


Still, its something people should know about me, I think the lot of people on this forum are aware of it.

Certainly Al, since hes one of the few I talk to on IM.

Even if he didn't know, I'd still be pretty damned offended.

not everybody's keeping written notes though.


http://www.clipartheaven.com/clipart/education_&_schools/cartoons/taking_notes.gif

It seems you two are being rather insensitive about this.

Its difficult for people to understand if they haven't been in this position it seems.

^ Al's point is that not everyone is crazy/stupid/unfortunate enough to get into the position of having to go to jail.  Or in "that" position for that matter.

^ Al's point is that not everyone is crazy/stupid/unfortunate enough to get into the position of having to go to jail.  Or in "that" position for that matter.


>:(

i tell ya, some days visiting this board really pays off, other days, not so much.

which -- hey! -- was essentially the subject of this thread in the first place!

i tell ya, some days visiting this board really pays off, other days, not so much.

which -- hey! -- was essentially the subject of this thread in the first place!


Listen dude, you don't know what its like to be in the position I was in.

^wasn't he actually responding to mushroom?


He was.  He did call me "Right Cubed" though, which is funny because a lot of hardcore Republicans would actually find me rather liberal :D  So I switched my name for a couple of days to reflect my oddball sense of humor.  I usually score as a "centrist" on most political belief scales, but he tells me that I'm a right wing Rush-loving fascist because he's so far to the left he's about to fall off the scale :o


>:(


Well what would you have us say?  Some people who end up in prison do deserve it, some don't.  The ones that deserve it, let them rot and suffer because they broke the law.  The ones that don't, bummer for them.

What is important is what they do when they get out of jail (if ever).  Will they truly be rehabilitated, so that they can be functional and productive again?  Or will they just go back to what they were doing to get them sent to jail in the first place?

A lot of us choose to NOT put ourselves in a position to go to jail and suffer a lot of the horror stories you hear from ex-cons and movies.  Sometimes it doesn't work. 

Listen dude, you don't know what its like to be in the position I was in.
whatever, i'm kinda busy today.

whatever, i'm kinda busy today.


You don't even care.


Well what would you have us say?  Some people who end up in prison do deserve it, some don't.  The ones that deserve it, let them rot and suffer because they broke the law.  The ones that don't, bummer for them.


They don't deserve to "rot and suffer", jail is there to protect the people on the OUTSIDE(society).

i've seen you get like this before, the dude. you should maybe just step away from the computer for a while and cool down.

i've seen you get like this before, the dude. you should maybe just step away from the computer for a while and cool down.


Maybe you should not have acted so insensitively toward me about this subject?

I SWEAR, this country has this attitude like convicts are sub-human and it extends to us, their families. They look down their nose at us, and at like our suffering doesn't matter.

I'll always remember the day my dad was arrested, the Texas Ranger who came to our house. I was just a kid, 14 years old, and he treated me like I was a criminal too. I'll never forget that, and it will always help shape my views on law enforcement and the justice system in this country.

Maybe you should not have acted so insensitively toward me about this subject?

I SWEAR, this country has this attitude like convicts are sub-human and it extends to us, their families. They look down their nose at us, and at like our suffering doesn't matter.

I'll always remember the day my dad was arrested, the Texas Ranger who came to our house. I was just a kid, 14 years old, and he treated me like I was a criminal too. I'll never forget that, and it will always help shape my views on law enforcement and the justice system in this country.



Do you mind if I ask what he was in prison for? If you don't want to say it here, you can PM me. If you don't want to tell me, that's cool. I'm just curious.




Cat

^ Nobody said YOU were sub-human.  Just a bit touchy.

What'd your dad do?

I'll always remember the day my dad was arrested, the Texas Ranger who came to our house. I was just a kid, 14 years old, and he treated me like I was a criminal too. I'll never forget that, and it will always help shape my views on law enforcement and the justice system in this country.



That TR may have been an a**hole, but they all aren't.  You can't paint the whole of law enforcement with the same brush just because that guy treated you like sh*t. 

^ Nobody said YOU were sub-human.  Just a bit touchy.

What'd your dad do?


Well guess what buddy? I'm not going to stand for anyone implying that about my dad either.



Do you mind if I ask what he was in prison for? If you don't want to say it here, you can PM me. If you don't want to tell me, that's cool. I'm just curious.




Cat


It was the year my mom left, we moved down to Houston because my dad wanted to try to get her back. We did alright for awhile, but he were going through financial troubles(it was December- never a good part of year for someone in the painting business), and he freaked. So he ended up robbing a bank.  He just found a small bank(not one of those big crowded ones or anything) walked in normally, no masks or anything like that, no gun, and went up to the Teller. He handed her a note saying it was a robbery, and not to use die packets or any alarms, she gathered up a bag of money without alerting the other tellers, gave it to him, and he walked out. Simple as that. He had route planned to walk back to his car a block or two away in a path where they couldn't see him from the bank to tell which way he was going. He got in his car and drove off normally.

He got arrested about a week later, become they'd shown the video on the news and someone called Crimestoppers(although the source is supposed to be anonymous- we later, ironically, found out it was my mom). I went to live with my mom but was only there about three weeks. The old man got out on bond, and decided to run. He was 53 years old and afraid of getting a sentence like 20 years, which would be a death sentence for him considering hes not led the healthiest life and his father died of a massive heart attack at 58. So I went with him, and stayed on the run with him for nearly four months, before he was caugt.

Which, he was caught out of pure stupidity. You see, at the time, my mom had not been able to get a divorce from hit yet, so he used her insurance to go to the Dentist. ::)

^ I was in financial trouble for a while and I never robbed a bank.  What you seem to be saying is that you're mad at society because your father was freaked out and did something stupid.  Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but like you said, I don't know you.

You really should try to be less touchy.

The ones that deserve it, let them rot and suffer because they broke the law.  The ones that don't, bummer for them.

If you were here, I'd hit you for that last remark. You don't just DISMISS innocent people like that.


The Dude, I know where you're coming from about how people treat you differently. There are a few ex-cons in my family, and when they were busted the first time, the law enforcment treated my mom like sh*t when she went to collect my cousin (cousin's parents were arrested for drugs). She got all in their face and let it be known that one of my dad's cousins was very high up in the police department, so they shouldn't get too mouthy. :o

Anyways, my point is that, YES, certain people will treat you differently if a family member is in prison or an ex-con. It is unfortunate and sucks a lot of ass. My cousin has to deal with that every day of her young life since my uncle makes no secret about being one of the biggest drug dealers in the area. Hell, he seems almost proud of it and calls a prison in California his "vacation home". :P

Well guess what buddy? I'm not going to stand for anyone implying that about my dad either.

It was the year my mom left, we moved down to Houston because my dad wanted to try to get her back. We did alright for awhile, but he were going through financial troubles(it was December- never a good part of year for someone in the painting business), and he freaked. So he ended up robbing a bank.  He just found a small bank(not one of those big crowded ones or anything) walked in normally, no masks or anything like that, no gun, and went up to the Teller. He handed her a note saying it was a robbery, and not to use die packets or any alarms, she gathered up a bag of money without alerting the other tellers, gave it to him, and he walked out. Simple as that. He had route planned to walk back to his car a block or two away in a path where they couldn't see him from the bank to tell which way he was going. He got in his car and drove off normally.

He got arrested about a week later, become they'd shown the video on the news and someone called Crimestoppers(although the source is supposed to be anonymous- we later, ironically, found out it was my mom). I went to live with my mom but was only there about three weeks. The old man got out on bond, and decided to run. He was 53 years old and afraid of getting a sentence like 20 years, which would be a death sentence for him considering hes not led the healthiest life and his father died of a massive heart attack at 58. So I went with him, and stayed on the run with him for nearly four months, before he was caugt.

Which, he was caught out of pure stupidity. You see, at the time, my mom had not been able to get a divorce from hit yet, so he used her insurance to go to the Dentist. ::)


  Oh wow...

  I don't think I'm understanding what the problem is.  Do you deem your father's punishment unjust..?

  Or is this a prison reform issue..?

  Oh wow...

  I don't think I'm understanding what the problem is.  Do you deem your father's punishment unjust..?

  Or is this a prison reform issue..?


Probably just the way everything was worded on a lot of people's parts. Unfortunately, typing on a board what you want to say doesn't actually sound as good as it would coming out of your mouth....or something. :P

^ I was in financial trouble for a while and I never robbed a bank. 


Aren't you a saint...


What you seem to be saying is that you're mad at society because your father was freaked out and did something stupid.  Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but like you said, I don't know you.



I'm mad at society for treating ME like sh*t because of it, and at people like YOU for making comments like people who are in jail should rot. You have the right to feel that way, I can't stop you, but you really should show a little more tact if you know you're talking to someone with a family member who has been or is in jail, especially if its an immediate family member. The Steve Irwin fellow who recently died, now one could blame him for doing all the crazy things he does, and logically, they'd be correct. However you'd still be a jerk if you said that to one of his family members, don't you think?


You really should try to be less touchy.


You have no room to talk in this discussion considering how inappropriate your rotting remark was.

Besides, petty personal arguments are one thing. If I blow up over some mundane thing like a parody thread, then yeah, ok, you have a point. But NOT when we're talking about FAMILY. How much more personal and emotional could a subject get? You can't expect me to "not be touchy" after you just essentially told me my dad deserved to suffer.


The Dude, I know where you're coming from about how people treat you differently. There are a few ex-cons in my family, and when they were busted the first time, the law enforcment treated my mom like sh*t when she went to collect my cousin (cousin's parents were arrested for drugs). She got all in their face and let it be known that one of my dad's cousins was very high up in the police department, so they shouldn't get too mouthy. :o

Anyways, my point is that, YES, certain people will treat you differently if a family member is in prison or an ex-con. It is unfortunate and sucks a lot of ass. My cousin has to deal with that every day of her young life since my uncle makes no secret about being one of the biggest drug dealers in the area. Hell, he seems almost proud of it and calls a prison in California his "vacation home". :P


Someone who understands. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/grouphug.gif

  Or is this a prison reform issue..?


Well, sort of. Mr. Rice thinks anyone guilty of their crime should be made to suffer in jail, as if they were some sort of animal. And naturally as a family member I take offense at this, and find it hurtful. He has the right to feel the way he does, but it doesn't make it RIGHT for him to say something like that to me.

Someone who understands. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/grouphug.gif


That part I do. It's a harsh thing when a child has to endure the consequences of a choice a parent made. And as bad as it is, I can even sort of understand why your dad did it. His isn't the first case I've heard of where someone is so desperate to support a family that they do something rash.

It is also unfortunate that many ex-cons who decide to straighten up and fly right get a bum deal. I've seen it happen. "Hey, you were in prison! I don't want you working for me!" Yeah, way to help someone who wants to better themself. ::)

*gets off soapbox*

Well guess what buddy? I'm not going to stand for anyone implying that about my dad either.

It was the year my mom left, we moved down to Houston because my dad wanted to try to get her back. We did alright for awhile, but he were going through financial troubles(it was December- never a good part of year for someone in the painting business), and he freaked. So he ended up robbing a bank.  He just found a small bank(not one of those big crowded ones or anything) walked in normally, no masks or anything like that, no gun, and went up to the Teller. He handed her a note saying it was a robbery, and not to use die packets or any alarms, she gathered up a bag of money without alerting the other tellers, gave it to him, and he walked out. Simple as that. He had route planned to walk back to his car a block or two away in a path where they couldn't see him from the bank to tell which way he was going. He got in his car and drove off normally.

He got arrested about a week later, become they'd shown the video on the news and someone called Crimestoppers(although the source is supposed to be anonymous- we later, ironically, found out it was my mom). I went to live with my mom but was only there about three weeks. The old man got out on bond, and decided to run. He was 53 years old and afraid of getting a sentence like 20 years, which would be a death sentence for him considering hes not led the healthiest life and his father died of a massive heart attack at 58. So I went with him, and stayed on the run with him for nearly four months, before he was caugt.

Which, he was caught out of pure stupidity. You see, at the time, my mom had not been able to get a divorce from hit yet, so he used her insurance to go to the Dentist. ::)



I appreciate you sharing that and a karma point.  It sounds like he is a stupid act out of desperation and probably wasn't thinking too clearly. We have done stupid acts at one time in our lives or another-some more stupid than others.


http://vb.forcabarca.com/kt8cnet/smilies/peace.gif




Cat

Don't want to go to prison?

Don't break the law.

I didn't break the law, I been framed!  Dude came running around corner and handed me a bag, said "hold this for me, I'll be back in a sec."  Then cops jumped out and threw me in the cruiser.  I didn't know what was in that bag!  Please, Mr. Judge, you gotta believe me!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/smileydies.gif

^ Truth in levity.  Some people in prison really are there because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Nothing more.


I think he's talking about Maxwell Smart. I've seen Maxwell throw around words like "Sounds like the right-wing talking heads", "Drinking the right-wing Kool-Aid", and similar things, to certain people. I don't know about those other words, though.





Yes, I did say "drinking the right-wing Kool-Aid," and I'd say it again because they keep mixing more!  "Talking Heads" is one of my favorite bands of all time.  It would be a bit surprising to find out David Byrne is a Republican!
8)

I didn't break the law, I been framed!  Dude came running around corner and handed me a bag, said "hold this for me, I'll be back in a sec."  Then cops jumped out and threw me in the cruiser.  I didn't know what was in that bag!  Please, Mr. Judge, you gotta believe me!
http://www.inthe00s.com/smile/09/smileydies.gif




Are you making fun of Alex and his dad?  If you are, that's a pretty f*cked up thing to do.

Are you making fun of Alex and his dad?  If you are, that's a pretty f*cked up thing to do.

No.  I posted that before I even read the rest of the thread. 

I have more sympathy for the Dude's dad did than perhaps anybody else on this board.  Financial desperation can drive a person to do all kinds of irrational things.  We're going to see more of this in the coming years as America sinks into another Great Depression.  I would feel anger if his Dad stole an old lady's purse.  A little bank branch? Meh, all that money's insured.  And you know what, the man got caught all the same. 

I don't think it is ever beneficial to treat people like animals.  I think a lot of what goes on in our prisons constitutes torture.  Most people who go to prison are going to get out.  If they're systematically abused, if they are deprived of human dignity, they are going to be much more angry and dangerous on the way out than they were on the way in.  At the very least it's a practical matter.

John Dillinger and Bonnie & Clyde were dangerous as hell, but there's a reason they were folk heroes in the first Great Depression (we are heading into the second).  The banks foreclosed on their farms.  John Dillinger sure as hell didn't.  When they saw the bank-robbing sprees ripping across the country, they couldn't help but say, "Hey, the banks are getting some of their own!"

Woody Guthrie: The Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd:
If you'll gather 'round me, children,
A story I will tell
'Bout Pretty Boy Floyd, an outlaw,
Oklahoma knew him well.
It was in the town of Shawnee,
A Saturday afternoon,
His wife beside him in his wagon
As into town they rode.

There a deputy sheriff approached him
In a manner rather rude,
Vulgar words of anger,
An' his wife she overheard.

Pretty Boy grabbed a log chain,
And the deputy grabbed his gun;
In the fight that followed
He laid that deputy down.

Then he took to the trees and timber
To live a life of shame;
Every crime in Oklahoma
Was added to his name.

But a many a starving farmer
The same old story told
How the outlaw paid their mortgage
And saved their little homes.

Others tell you 'bout a stranger
That come to beg a meal,
Underneath his napkin
Left a thousand dollar bill.

It was in Oklahoma City,
It was on a Christmas Day,
There was a whole car load of groceries
Come with a note to say:

Well, you say that I'm an outlaw,
You say that I'm a thief.
Here's a Christmas dinner
For the families on relief.

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

Woody Guthrie: The Ballad of Pretty Boy Floyd:
If you'll gather 'round me, children,
A story I will tell
'Bout Pretty Boy Floyd, an outlaw,
Oklahoma knew him well.
It was in the town of Shawnee,
A Saturday afternoon,
His wife beside him in his wagon
As into town they rode.

There a deputy sheriff approached him
In a manner rather rude,
Vulgar words of anger,
An' his wife she overheard.

Pretty Boy grabbed a log chain,
And the deputy grabbed his gun;
In the fight that followed
He laid that deputy down.

Then he took to the trees and timber
To live a life of shame;
Every crime in Oklahoma
Was added to his name.

But a many a starving farmer
The same old story told
How the outlaw paid their mortgage
And saved their little homes.

Others tell you 'bout a stranger
That come to beg a meal,
Underneath his napkin
Left a thousand dollar bill.

It was in Oklahoma City,
It was on a Christmas Day,
There was a whole car load of groceries
Come with a note to say:

Well, you say that I'm an outlaw,
You say that I'm a thief.
Here's a Christmas dinner
For the families on relief.

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.

And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.




Odd that you should mention Woody Guthrie's song about Pretty Boy Floyd. A family story from my grandma's time: Back in Floyd's day, he helped my great-grandmother with her financial situation. He set her up in a house and made sure she had money until she could support herself, my grandmother, and my great-aunt. My grandmother distinctly remembers him picking them up from the side of the road. On the way to the next town, they all had to sit up front with him because there was no backseat...just guns.

*ends rambling*

Odd that you should mention Woody Guthrie's song about Pretty Boy Floyd. A family story from my grandma's time: Back in Floyd's day, he helped my great-grandmother with her financial situation. He set her up in a house and made sure she had money until she could support herself, my grandmother, and my great-aunt. My grandmother distinctly remembers him picking them up from the side of the road. On the way to the next town, they all had to sit up front with him because there was no backseat...just guns.

*ends rambling*


Hey, cool story!
:)

Even Al Capone used to help out the poor folks in the neighborhoods of Chicago.  Capone was a totally different kind of criminal from Floyd.  Floyd was on the run.  Capone was a top boss in orgainized crime.  They didn't call him the "King of Chicago" for nothing.  If your going to be viollent and live outside the law, it pays to help the folks out.  If you pay somebody's mortgage, if you pay somebody's medical bills, if you put somebody's kid through school...heck, if you just give somebody a hot meal and a warm place to sleep...that person will repay you with loyalty.  Floyd understood that, Capone understood that, The Black Panthers understood that, Hamas and Hezbollah understand that...the Republican Party does not!

well, to be fair, i've seen the kool-aid comment from time to time and yeah, if that were directed against me it would bother me. as for "sounds like right-wing talking heads," that's sorta a testable claim.


OK, so in other words, I am a liar.  Since I share some of the beliefs of Rush, I must be lying simply because I happen to agree with something.  ANd the same goes for Bill O'Riley.

And you know what I find absolutely fudgeing amazing?  For a punch of people who claim to never listen to Rush, or Bill O'Riley, or Anne Coulter, or Fox News in general, an awful lot in here seem to know exactly what they all think and say.  I am absolutely fudgeing amazed when people call me a "talking head", because these are the self-same people who claim that they never watch or listen to those shows.  Yet there they are, claiming that myself and others are repeating back what they were told by others.

Does anybody else in here find this funny?  Because I sure do.

Oh, and here are the "Sensitive Liberals".  I clicked on this topic originally, because I also wondered if GW might make a post.  And what do I read but what is shielded insults and slander thrown about.  Guess what, I think I will take some pictures of some of you all and photoshop them into toilets.  Maybe I will even photoshop them into turds.  But I am not like that.  I do not make myself feel good by treating others like crap.  I live by the old addage "Do unto others".

Tia, you are a spokeshole for the Far-Left wing of the Democratic Party.  Guess what, according to what you said, that is testable.  I bet if I took 100 stances of that part of the party, you would agree with 90 of them.  

But guess what?  I really do not believe that.  I honestly and sincerely believe that you hold your beliefs because that is what you believe.  And that goes also for Maxwell, Don Carlos, his lovely wife Cat, Rice, and everybody else in here.

You called me something like "unusually sensative" earlier Tia.  Myself, I call it "Unusually Considerate".  For the most part, I do not call a piece of sheesh a piece of sheesh.  I call it "Coprolite".  I do not tell somebody to their face they are a lying turd, I say they are being dishonest with the facts.  If I think somebody is a braindead parrot of the left wing, I say they are "deluded" or "need to check with outside sources".  I have something called tact and civility.

However, I do have the honest belief that everybody is entitled to their own beliefs.  All I ever ask is that they do not force them on others.  And that goes with all things.  I would no more support a mandatory class requiring the instruction of "Man From Apes" then I would a mandatory class requiring the instruction of "Creationism".  I dissagree (very strongly) with a Klukker going around with claims of "mud people" poluting the genetics of the the "White Race".  However, I would never demand that their right of free speech be taken away from them.  Myself, I feel that they are free to spout their racist gibberish, because intelligent people will see it for exactly what is it: bullsheesh (oops, I mean coprolite).

In the same way, I look at the "debate" between "Right and "Left" as exactly that: a debate.  I may dissagree with you, but it is your right to hold your beliefs, and I would never say you were an idiot for having them.  I would not go around and say you are a "left wing parrot", or that you are drinking the "left-wing koolaid".  And the same thing goes for Maxwell, and everybody else.

I wish more of you would look at the way my friend (at least I consider him to be my friend) Don Carlos communicates in here.  His comments are rarely acerbic.  And on the rare cases they are, I normally agree with him, because it is about something that I think most people would find distastefull.

And instead of concentrating on where we dissagree, try looking at where we agree.  A lot of times we have agreed 75% on something, but you (and a lot of others) will go on and on about the 25% where we dissagree.  This is the type of crap that pulls people apart politically (and in every other aspect of politics, religion, and everything else in life).  And in cases where we dissagree, learn to simply shrug and "agree to dissagree".

There is no need to resort to a lot of the statements made in here.  I find them insulting, and a lot of others do as well.  Maybe you (and others in here) need to take some "Sensitivity Training".  You need to learn to respect the beliefs and opinions of others, no matter how much you dissagree with them.

Now I admit I have had a bit much to drink tonight, and this entire thing has rather set me off.  But I am really tired of the disrespect I see in here, and felt that I needed to say a few things more openly then I normally do.  However, do not take this personally Tia.  It is not aimed at you specifically, as much as towards all in here that are intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others.

However, I am serious about "Sensitivity Training".  There are a lot of people in here that need to learn to be more considerate of the beliefs and opinions of others.  You may not give a fudge about what they think, but the statements that are made in here really pisses people off.  And a lot of people like myself are fudgeing damned well sick and tired of it.  Before long, you may end up with what you want: every "moderate" and "conservative" leaving this forum.  THen you can have some "left wing" politics board, where you all go around patting yourselves on the back, saying how wonderful you are for being right.

I now take my drunken ass to bed, sure that this post will be deleted within hours.  But at least I got some things off my chest that I have been holding in for far to long.  And maybe this needs to be moved to the Politics section.  The conversation has moved far away from GW2004, and moved to other things.  ANd that way, I never have to worry about seeing it again.

*turns off the computer, and returns to watching "Hustle"*

PS:  Max, Pretty Boy Floyd was not a hero.  He was little more then a thug and murdering criminal.  And he is my great-great uncle.  He happens to be the embarasement of the family.  Most of us try to ignore the fact he ever lived, and instead concentrate on another great-great uncle, Charles Francis Kettering.

lol. i watch a lot of bill o'reilly. i'd be foolish not to, under the old axiom of know your enemy. i listened to rush limbaugh endlessly in college, for the same reason i used to watch cops constantly -- it's hard to tear your attention offa such a train wreck.

and dude, you're getting all upset again for no good reason. and i'm still not seeing any insults directed your way, i'm just saying that you're pro-administration. and you are! just look at your posts. own up to it. have an opinion. jeez! criminy, they need the help! ;D

mushroom said: "Tia, you are a spokeshole for the Far-Left wing of the Democratic Party.  Guess what, according to what you said, that is testable.  I bet if I took 100 stances of that part of the party, you would agree with 90 of them." 

well, i pretty much agree with this except for this odd term "spokeshole," which i hope never in my life to deploy in conversation with a straight face. when i hear the far left of the democratic party, i typically dig what they say -- if you're talking about your barbara boxers, your barbara lees, your dennis kuciniches. frankly, i disagree with them infrequently. usually my problem is they don't go far enough.

"But guess what?  I really do not believe that.  I honestly and sincerely believe that you hold your beliefs because that is what you believe.  And that goes also for Maxwell, Don Carlos, his lovely wife Cat, Rice, and everybody else in here."

well, i pretty much agree with that too. i don't see the problem here. you like the bush administration! just admit it! gawd.

dude, seriously, i really don't think it's insensitivity. you just take stuff HARD for some reason. it's the internet! it's not like we actually know each other!

PS:  Max, Pretty Boy Floyd was not a hero.  He was little more then a thug and murdering criminal.  And he is my great-great uncle.  He happens to be the embarasement of the family.  Most of us try to ignore the fact he ever lived, and instead concentrate on another great-great uncle, Charles Francis Kettering.


I disagree. If not for him, my grandma probably wouldn't have grown up in a better circumstance and I would not exist.

And the Kansas City Massacre (if that's what you're referring to) was most likely pinned on him, according to this place:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters/prettyboy/

I disagree. If not for him, my grandma probably wouldn't have grown up in a better circumstance and I would not exist.

And the Kansas City Massacre (if that's what you're referring to) was most likely pinned on him, according to this place:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters/prettyboy/

I'm envious.  We have no crime legends in my family.
Although Linda Kasabian was my babysitter.  Long story, but true!
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/manson/prosecution_7.html
:o

I'm envious.  We have no crime legends in my family.
Although Linda Kasabian was my babysitter.  Long story, but true!
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/manson/prosecution_7.html
:o


Holy sheesh! When did that happen?

Holy sheesh! When did that happen?

Her parents lived in Concord, NH, and in the early '70s, my family relocated not too far from there.  Linda Kasabian didn't kill anybody.  She just drove the car to Roman Polanski's place.  She got immunity for her testimony.  After the trial, she moved back to Milford, New Hampshire.  She ended up in the same circle of hippies as my parents.  She married another hippie with the last name of Christian (kinda ironic), so everybody knew her as Linda Christian.  She would have been recognized immediately today, but in the early '70s there was far less visual media.  You didn't have cable news flashing the same pictures 24/7.  So this pretty hippie chick lives in a cabin in the woods with her husband, and she's got kids about the same age as my sister and I.  My mom meets her at the organic food co-op and they strike up a friendship.  She and my mom swapped babysitting duties sometimes.  The locals soon found out her real identity and she became a pariah.  My parents stood by her.  That was a gamble they were foolish to take.  Would you leave your kids alone with a Manson girl? 

As I understood it for most of my life, my parents, who were a bit older, believed her story.  What happened to Linda could have happened to any number of errant hippie chicks.  They were all dropping acid and living outside the establishment.  Linda just happened to get introduced to Manson out there in the California desert.  She had no direction and no place to go.  Charlie provided...and then Charlie controlled everybody.  My parents forgave her.

I was only a few years old, so my memories of her are very hazy.  I do remember she was kind, gentle, and sweet.  She was never erratic or menacing when she was with us.  I learned later her demons came out when she drank.  Most likely she had PTSD.  She would drink at the local bars and blab about who she was, and start acting all weird.  That was after the rumors had cycled.  She had a few run-ins with the local cops, which didn't help.  She had a job at one of the diners.  They let her go after the locals started coming around to gawk at her.  They used to joke about ordering a "Kasabian," like it was a sandwich special.  Her marriage fell apart and she spent a while living with her kids in a tenament on the other side of town.  Then she disappeared altogether, and my parents never mentioned her again.

I did overhear my chatty aunt make some remark about "Linda drving the car for that gang of killers."  I asked my mom about it later.  She tried to explain in a way that wouldn't traumatize a kid.  I couldn't get my mind around the whole thing.  I was too young.  Linda was out of the picture by then
I don't know for certain, but I believe the last straw was after Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme attempted to assassinate President Ford.  The ones who weren't in prison from the Family had long since scattered.  Linda hadn't seen or heard from any of these people since the trial.  But after Fromme's attempt on Ford, the FBI started harrassing all of them.  It didn't help that Charlie always talked a line of BS from prison that he "had people on the outside," and he could start Helter Skelter any time he wanted.  That was 1975.  It wasn't until I was in my 30s that I learned Linda had fled to the Seattle area trying to shake the feds. 

She never recovered.  It's hard to feel sorry for a Manson girl, but I think Linda wanted to put the criminal past behind her, but the noteriety followed her, and she was not wanted anywhere in straight society.  She wound up living in the shadows between penury and petty crimes.  Her children, who were once our playmates, have also had troubled lives.  One of the did some time for cocaine dealing.
 
http://whttp://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansontestimony-k.html
www.charliemanson.com/family.htm

My parents were naive and confused about life at the time.  They are people who didn't really grow up until they were in their 40s!  My mother has said with great compunction that she wouldn't have let Linda babysit us if she had it to do over again.  Linda was always good to us, but she was still a conspirator in one of the most gruesome crimes of the century.  Red flags should have gone up if not when they found out, but at least when she started getting into trouble in town.  But, it's more than three decades over and done.  I can't do much more than shake my head in amazement!